are your expositions Your last meanes is the Decrees of generall Councels Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures what sense they doe and ought to beare If not then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scriptures then such as generall Councels haue expounded the rest are buried in obscurity But Augustine will not yeeld to that who among other meanes to finde out the true interpretation of Scriptures aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures whereof the more a man findes the more capable he is vnderstand the Scriptures yeelds this reason of his aduise In his enim c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life Next do generall Councels all agree in one in this also Augustine is a witnes against you writing against the Donatistes who pleaded Cyprians letters Cyprians sentence Cyprians councell But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops yea aboue all generall Councels allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie and vndoubted truth in them but all the writings of Bishops yea the determinations of Councels to be subiect to the correction of other Bishops after them and likewise of other and later Councels his wordes touching the Councels are Ipsa enim concilia c. For the verie Councels De baptis cont Douat lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie or generall Councels which are held from out of all the Christian world and the verieplenarie or generall Councels the former oftentimes are amended by the later when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close and that is knowen which did lie hid What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order not onely all mens writings but euen generall Councels also to be iudged by the Scriptures and not to iudge ouer the Scriptures Wherefore were it true that you so vainlie boast of that you had the consent of ancient Fathers and the Decrees of generall Councels for you yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man Ierem. â— â— that wee together with the whole true church of God are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa 8. 20. all things as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commaundement of Christ and holde that which is good that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie and whosoeuer speake not according to that word we holde them to be in darknesse and to haue no light in them From this hold you shall neuer driue vs and yet thanks be to God you haue hitherto beene beaten at your owne weapon and for the principall points of faith and religion haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush nor your leaden hearts relent but still you will crie Fathers Fathers Councels Councels PAPIST Secondly to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers I say that one or two or a few of them may be deceiued and therefore such particular opinions we admit not and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places and at diuerse times cannot but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that liued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time hath these excellent words That which they found in the Church they helde fast that which they learned they taught that which they receiued of their fathers the same they deliuered to their Children S. Paul likewise saith that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church and the Protestants cannot deuie but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians Pelagians Donatistes and manie more such pestilent heretikes PROTESTANT First we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane whom Andradius defends in it it is lawfull yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures to leaue the streame of the Fathers and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all which might at no hand be admitted if as you presume wherein they generally consent they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth Andradius doth not onely say so but giues good reason for it The literall sense of Scripture saith he doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense In deciding of Doctrines then which is to be done by the litterall sense what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers who very seldome giue the litterall sense Another reason hee giues that the Fathers in giuing the sense of Scriptures haue giuen verie diuerse sense and vnlike one to another Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of Secondly the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church nor any member therof otherwise or by any other instinct then by from the holy Scriptures whereby euery spirit is to be tried So farre then as the Fathers either seuerally or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures we follow them without doubting whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures we leaue what they haue probably spoken we receiue as probable alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie gifts and labours but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith Thirdly you much abuse S. Augustine in drawing his words which yet serue not your turne from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places Depeccat merit remiss hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians Cyprian Ierome he addeth this caueat I haue not recited these things to anie such end as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers whatsoeuer they were as to Canonicall authoritie but that
any Father or Councell for the space of 600. yeares after Christ to proue any of those points named in that chalenge not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith but rather affirmeth with Augustine Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam De bono viduit cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine Rom. 1. 16. figit and if he had found either in Fathers or Councels any thing swaruing from this rule he would haue forsaken them and cleaued to the Scriptures as he hath told you in his learned Apologie We know that the Gospell of Iesus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation and that therein consisteth eternall life And as Paul warneth vs we do not heare no Gal. 1. 8. not an Angel of God though he come from heauen if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine Secondly you say the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles c. What meane you so to ouer-reach doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles for so much you would imply and must or else it comes too short of your purpose The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men and therefore doth not exempt them from erring nor their writings from errors which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer so godly or learned so long as they are written onely by a priâ—at spirit Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher much lesse as an heretike and therefore it may be doubted and denied that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers Thirdly you say No Protestant you thinke dare say that they are damned in hell No verily and yet you picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall because they built vpon the foundation which is Iesus Christ alone and making them principles of your faith and religion and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ may be damned in so doing except you repent Fourthly Most sure you say you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ theu vpon such as liue now and are partiall in their owne cause Men of reason in matters of reason may relie vpon men But men of faith in matters of saluation wil relie only vpon Christ the Author finisher and foundation of our faith the Heb. 12. 2 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life in a word the onely way the onely truth the onely life But see with what cunning you deale Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers who those Fathers were what they wrote and how they shall vnderstand them you must be their interpreters So in effect they must relie their saluation vpon you which is against your owne rule For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause Againe in this your comparison of persons vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word and seeke to cast an imputation vpon the Protestants that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them which is as far from them as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word No no we counsell the faithfull as Christ our Master doth to search the Scriptures and with the Apostle to Iohn 5. 39. build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Eph 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone Lastly God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth which out of your owne mouth beareth witnes against your selfe you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vppon them that liued neerest vnto Christ And who liued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accorde with you in the truth we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ and were his witnesses and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end theÌ„ vpon any or all that haue beene since whether they be Councels Popes Bishops or Doctors of what place holines or learning soeuer Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne the best and strongest part of your proofe which you haue set in the last place makes most against your selfe as hath bin shewed Now then let vs come to your Assumption PAPIST But as certaine it is that they were of our religion and not of the Protestants which is so euident that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof and to giue an instance Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe and was so wonderfull for learning that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of and this ancient holie and learned Father beleeued and taught them yea and the whole Church of his time aâ— we beleeue teach now If any maÌ„ make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei he shal find as much as I affirme concerning prayer to Saints reuerence to Relikes and Pilgrimage to holie places three of the most odious points as they thinke in all our religion PROTESTANT To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion and not of the Protestants you tell vs that one of them S. Augustine was so Doth this proue that all were so Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so because as you pretend he held some points of your religion as Praier to Saints reuerence to Relikes Pilgrimage to holie places praier for the dead Do these points coÌ„prehend al your religion Againe may it not
Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
is the heauenlie sacrament which trulie representeth Christs flesh is called Christs bodie but improperlie wherefore it is called after the sort thereof but not in truth of the thing but in a signifying mysterie So as the meaning is It is called the bodie of Christ that is it signifieth And in a word because you bite so hard vpon the word Sacrifice wheresoeuer you finde it in Augustine or others let Augustine himselfe interprete what force that word hath how it is to be taken A true sacrifice saith he is euerie worke which is done that by a holie felowship we may cleaue fast to God De Ciu. Del. lib. 10. cap. 6. to wit referred to that end of good by which we maie truelie be blessed Which in the end of that chapter he applieth to the sacrament This is the sacrifice of Christians we being manie are one bodie in Christ vvhich also the Church in the sacrament of the Altar knovven to the faithfull doth frequentlie obserue Thus haue you no helpe from Augustine for your grosse opinion of carnall presence and for your Popish sacrifice and consequently by your owne forcible reason from none of the rest of the Fathers for no reason as you say can moue vsto thinke that he did in so important a matter dissent from all others of his time Now therefore out of the examination of those fewe questions let all such as be desirous of truth and salution of their soules discerne what helpe you haue from venerable antiquitie for your Popish and Romish Superstition PAPIST The third reason Sundrie points of our Religion generallie mislâ—ked by our adnâ—rsartes befor all that true according to their owne principles and consequentlie agreeable to sacred Scripture this though it seeme strange yet is iâ— thus plainlie proued In their communion booke authorised by act of Parliament we finde prescribed hovv the sicke person ought to make a speciall confession of his sins to the In the visitation of the sicke special confession Priest and it vvill not helpe them to saie that they are not bound to confesse al thir sins but such only as do trouble their coÌ„science for vvhat if all that come to minde do trouble them as vve thinke all should seing all according to their doctrine be mortall and damnable And besides gladlie vvould I knovv that text of Scripture vvhich commandeth the confession of some sinnes and not of all let them name the place Secondlie vve find there also prescribed how after confession the Priest must absolue him in this maner Our Lord Iesus Christ c. and by his authoritie committed to Absolution from sinnes me I absolue thee from all thy sinnes In the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost What vvords for the Priests absolution can be wished more plaine being the same in English vvhich in Latine be vsed in the Catholike Church PROTESTANT No doubt you were put to your shifts when out of ProtestaÌ„t principles you would take in hand to proue the truth of Popish religion which either you do to spende some time in idle talke to no purpose or else you must needes ascribe the credit of truth to Protestant principles for thus your reason must be framed VVhatsoeuer agreeth vvith the Protestant principles is true Sundry points of Popâ—sh religion agree vvith Protestant principles Therefore sundrâ—e points of Popish religion are true We thanke you for yeelding true witnes to the Protestant religion and yet we thanke you not much for sure it was against your will and was onely vpon some hope to countenance Poperie by the meanes Againe see another reason of your owne making for the truth of Protestant religion Sundrie points of our religion are true according to the ProtestaÌ„t principles and consequently agreeable to sacred scripture Bring your owne reason into forme will it not be this VVhatsoeuer is true according to Protestant principles is agreeable to sacred scriptures Sundrie points of Poperie are true according to Protestant principles Therefore they are agreeable to sacred scriptures We thanke you the second time for confessing so cleerly that the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scriptures And in kindnesse towards you for your double testimony so frankly affourded for the truth of Protestant religion wee are bounde to yeelde thus much vnto you that if any point of Poperie be true according to the principles of our religion then surely it is agreeable to sacred scriptures For surely all the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scripture as very ingeniously you haue confessed and I hope will not reuoke But indeede strange it were as out of a faint heart you confesse that any point of Popery should be true according to Protestant principles and therefore doubtles you are out of hope to proue any point of Poperie true by that meanes Let vs see then what be the points Our Communion booke vvould haue the sicke person visited to make a speciall confession of he feele his conscience troubled vvith any vveightie matter and vvhen he hath so done vvilleth the Priest to absolue him by the authoriâ—e of Christ What of all this Is this popish Eareshrift the booke saith a speciall not an auricular confession Secondly doth the booke set the sicke mans conscience vpon the rack to reueale to the Priest all his sinnes by number with the time place and manner as without which he cannot be saued you finde no such matter there onely the Church giues him aduise for the ease of his conscience to vnburthen himselfe by confession of those sinnes which at that time trouble his conscience Thirdly if no sinne at that time trouble his conscience he is not willed to make any confession and if any sinne hath troubled his conscience in former time if by confessing the same to any faithfull Christian brother he haue receiued comfort to the peace of his conscience before the Priest come to visite him he is not insnared with any scruple of conscience that except he confesse it to the Priest he cannot be forgiuen You obiect First what if all his sinnes that come to minde trouble his conscience as you thinke all shoulde seeing according to our doctrine all be mortall and damnable I answere what if they do not trouble his conscience then doth our booke require no confession at his hands wheras all must of necessity come to your Popish shrift whether their consciences be troubled or no. And by the way all men may see what peace of conscience Popery breeds that leaues men vnder the torture of an accusing conscience for all the sinnes they can remember and that euen in the howre of death The holy Apostle Saint Paul 1. Tim. 1. 13. remembreth that in former time he had beene a blasphemer a persecutor and oppressor yet was not his conscience troubled at this time for he addeth presently that hee was receiued to mercie It could not be that he should apprehend and applie to