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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A87879	An answer to the Marques of Worcester's last paper; to the late King. Representing in their true posture, and discussing briefly, the main controversies between the English and the Romish Church. Together with some considerations, upon Dr Bayly's parenthetical interlocution; relating to the Churches power in deciding controversies. To these is annext, Smectymnuo-Mastix : or, short animadversions upon Smectymnuus in the point of lyturgie. / By Hamon L'Estrange, Esqr.	L'Estrange, Hamon, 1605-1660.	1651 (1651)	Wing L1187; Wing L1191; Thomason E1218_2; ESTC R202717	68,906	120

is the Rule of Faith and after he tells you why it must be so because a Rule must be certain and known for if it be not certain it is no Rule and if not known it is no Rule to us now there is nothing more certain or more known than the Scriptures Compare the Marques his infallible Rule of Traditions with this saying of Bellarmine and it will appear they have little of a Rule in them For certainly what is more uncertain When the Primitive Church it self within a hundred years after the Apostolical Times was split into that great Schism about the Celebration of Easter which was but a meer Tradition and was not reconciled till the Councel of Nice And for being known nothing is less seeing in the very Church of Rome they are not yet agreed which are Apostolical Traditions The Scriptures he urgeth are Rom. 12. 6. And there is a Rule of Faith I grant and an infallible one too but it is not praeter besides nor extra without the Scripture but that mentioned in the Scriptures Gal. 6. 16. there is a Rule but a Rule of Doctrine concerning Christian Liberty in the point of Circumcision no Rule of Faith Rom. 6. 17. there is neither Rule nor Faith but a form of Doctrine delivered to them by the preaching of the Gospel what he urged out of 2 Cor. 10. 12 16. is so extremely and grosly impertinent as sure when he cast his eye upon that place his Lordship was either entring into or newly raised from such a nap wherein the Doctor found him M. But lest we should mis-understand what this Rule of Faith is the Marques tells us By it is not meant the holy Scriptures for that cannot do it and he gives the Reason whilest there are unstable men who wrest this way and that way to their own destruction So that Scripture is now with the Marques no infallible Rule at all Traditions have outed her clear and the Reason inferreth plainly that we must not walk abroad at high noon-day without a Torch because some men notwithstanding the Sun shined clear have fallen into a Ditch Of farr more weight I must needs confess are his Humane than Divine Authorities which yet shall not pass without my Animadversions Irenaeus lib. 4. c. 45. speaking of those who succeeded the Apostles saith Hi fidem nostram custodiunt Scripturas sine periculo exponunt These preserve our Faith and expound the Scriptures without peril of error Observe first 't is hi these men who were so near the Apostles as they were instructed by those who were contemporaries with them as himself says Then again 't is exponunt they do expound not that they are infallible or cannot expound otherwise what is this to the infallibility of the Church 1600 years after Christ Irenaeus is full enough in this point and point-blank against the Marques a To expound Scripture decording to Scripture is the truest way and least perilous As for Tertullian his meaning is thus made out b The Heretiques with whom the Church was to dispute did not receive all Scriptures for Canonical and those they did receive intire they did not or if intire they feigned strange Interpretations of their own fancies and a corrupt sense prejudiceth Truth as much as a corrupt Text were they accused for vitiating and falsifying the Text or for introducing absured Expositions They retorted the same Charge upon their Adversaries In this case of malicious obstinacy the Church had onely this remedy to provoke them to declare who founded their Churches for if it appeared they were the Apostles there was no more to be said it being in those days c constat and evidence enough of Truth that their Churches were of Apostolical foundation As for Vincentius having spoke before of the perfection of Scripture with a satis superque that it is all-sufficient and to spare he supposeth it may be demanded what need is there then of the Churches sense to which he answereth because all men understand it not in one sense and alike therefore it is necessary saith he that the line of interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Catholique and Ecclesiastical sense Now what is intended by a Catholique sense is the Question the Papists will have it to be Tradition unwritten but we say it is that which the Universal Church hath always held for Vincentius explains his Catholique to be that a which always every where and of all men hath been believed and this Rule we willingly admit in points essential where variety and different senses are inconsistent but in other points of less concernment we say with Saint Augustin b If any thing be set down in sacred Scriptures more obscurely as an exercise for the mindes of Believers it is commendable if it be interpreted many ways provided no way absurdly M. In matters of Faith Christ bids us do and observe whatsoever they bid us who sit in Moses seat Matth. 23. 2. therefore there is something more to be observed than Scripture True it is to be observed that his Lordship here takes observing and doing to be matters of Faith which I never read in Scripture nor anywhere else But are we to do whatsoever they bid us who sit in Moses seat Surely no if they have any Commission it is not greater than that of Moses was and his was after the tenour of the words delivered him in the Mount Exod. 34. 27. And therefore Christ saith In vain ye worship me teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men Mat. 15. 9. Wil you not as wel believe what you hear Christ say as what ye hear his Ministers write Yes sure and much more for what Christ says is truth it self believe it I must but what his Ministers write is many times erroneous and then credat Judaeus Apella non ego believe it who will for me Their Commission is All things which I have commanded you M. We say the Scriptures are not easie to be understood you say they are Our Church saith it is full as well of low valleys plain ways and easie for every man to walk in as also of high hills and mountains which few men can climb unto And this the Marques in a manner grants p. 129. saying 't is easie in aliquibus but not in omnibus locis in some places not every where M. We say this Church cannot err you say it can What his Lordship means by this Church we might demand had he not told us at first to what Church he would lead his Majesty and that was the Romish Church of which our Church makes no bones to say It hath erred not onely in living and matters of ceremonies but also in matters of faith Here she is I confess somewhat bolder with the Church of Rome than the Marques was with his Majesty But perhaps the Church of England for she is not infallible may err in her

should not trust in arms of flesh Tertullian was a Montanist Cyprian a Rebaptist Origin an Anthropomorphist Hierom a Monoganist Nazianzen an Angelist Eusebius an Arrian Saint Augustine had written so many Errors as occasioned the writing of a whole Book of Retractions they have oftentimes contradicted one another and some times themselves Now for General Councels Did not that Concilium Ariminense conclude for the Arrian Heresie Did not that Concilium Ephisinum conclude for the Eutichian Heresie Did not that Concilium Carthaginense conclude it not lawfull for Priests to marry Was not Athanasius condemned In Concilio Tyrio Was not Eiconolatria established In Concilio Nicaeno secundo What should I say more when the Apostles themselves less obnoxious to Error either in Life or Doctrine more to be preferred than any or all the world besides one of them betrays his Saviour another denies him all forsake him They thought Christ's Kingdom to be of this world and a promise onely unto the Jews and not unto the Gentiles and this after the Resurrection They wondred that the holy Ghost should fall upon the Gentiles Saint John twice worshipped the Angel and was rebuked for it Apoc. 22. 8. Saint Paul saw how Peter walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel Gal. 2. 14. Not onely Peter but other of the Apostles were ignorant how the Word of God was to be preached unto the Gentiles But who then shall rowl away the stone from the mouth of the Monument Who shall expound the Scriptures to us One puls one way and another another by whom shall we be directed Scinditur incertum studia in contraria vulgus You that cry up the Fathers the Fathers so much shall hear how the Fathers do tell us that the Scriptures are their own Interpreters Irenaeus who was Scholar to Policarpus that was Scholar to Saint John l. 3. c. 12. thus saith Ostentiones quae sunt in Scripturis non possunt ostendi nisi ex ipsis Scripturis the Evidences which are in Scripture cannot be manifested but out of the same Scripture Clemens Alexandrinus Nos ex ipsis deipsis Scripturis perfecte demonstrantes ex fide persuademus demonstrative Strom. lib. 7. Out of the Scriptures themselves from the same Scriptures perfectly demonstrating do we draw demonstrative Persuasions from Faith Crysost Sacra Scriptura seipsam exponit auditorem errare non sinit Basilius Magnus Quae ambigue quae obscure videntur dici in quibusdam locis sacrae Scripturae ab iis quae in aliis locis aperta perspicua sunt explicantur Hom. 13. in Gen. Those things which may seem to be ambiguous and obscure in certain places of the holy Scripture must be explicated from those places which else-where are plain and manifest Augustinus Ille qui cor habet quod precisum est jungat Scripturae legat superiora vel inferiora inveniet sensum Let him who hath a precise heart joyn it unto the Scriptures and let him observe what goes before and that which follows after and he shall finde out the sense Gregorius saith Ser. 49. De verbis Domini Per Scripturam loquitur deus omne quod vult voluntas Dei sicut in Testamento sic in Evangelio inquiratur By Scripture God speaks his whole minde and the will of God as in the old Testament so in the new is to be found out Optatus contra parmenonem lib. 5. Num quis aequior arbiter veritatis divinae quam Deus aut ubi Deus manifestius loquitur quam in verbo suo Is there a better Judge of the divine Verity than God himself or where doth God more manifestly declare himself than in his own Word What breath shall we believe then but that which is the breath of God the holy Scriptures for it seems all one to Saint Paul to say Dicit Scriptura the Scripture saith Rom. 4. 3. and Dicit Deus the Lord saith Rom. 9. 17. The Scripture hath concluded all under sin Gal. 3. 22. For that which Rom. 11. 32 he saith God hath concluded all c. How shall we otherwise conclude than but with the Apostle 1 Cor. 2. 12. We have received not the spirit of the world but the spirit which is of God that we might know the things that are freely given unto us of God They who know not this spirit do deride it but this spirit is the hidden Manna Apoc. 2. 17. which God giveth them to eat who shall overcome it is the white stone wherein the white name is written which no man knoweth but he that received it Wherefore we see the Scripture is the Rule by which all difference may be composed it is the Light wherein we must walk the Food of our Souls an Antidote that expels any Infection the onely Sword that kils the Enemy the onely Plaister that can cure our Wounds and the onely Documents that can be given towards the attainment of everlasting Salvation AN ANSWER TO THE Marqu of WORCESTERS Late Paper to the KING M. YOur Majesty is pleased to wave all the marks of a true Church and to make recourse to Scripture His Majesty waves not the marks of the true Church but waves the frequent Roman Church as not true because she wants those marks That he hath recourse to Scripture why should the Marques blame him it is the witness of God greater than that of men 1 John 5. 9. M. I humbly take leave to aske your Majesty what Heretique that ever was did not so Here the Marques calls his Majesty Heretique by craft but first is at King King by your leave that he might do it with the more civility M. How shall the greatest Heretique in the world be confuted or censured if any man may be permitted to appeal to Scriptures margin'd with his own Notes sensed with his own meaning and enlivened with his own private spirit to what end were those marks so fully both by the Prophets the Apostles and our Saviour himself set down if we make no use of them We deny utterly any such Appeal we say The Scripture must be margin'd with its own Notes for what is doubtfull and dark in one place is elsewhere clearly and evidently explained a Sensed with its own meaning from the Scriptures themselves must we receive the sense of Truth b So Clemens the second Bishop of Rome nay and more than so we must not go out of it to a forreign Interpreter and enlivened with its own Spirit For the things of God knoweth no man but the Spirit of God 1 Cor. 2. 11. And therefore cursed say I be he that removeth the Lords Land-marks The M. findes the K. firm and close to Scripture and seeing him so resolved pretends in compliance with his Majesty recourse to that too yea and promiseth to lead the K. to his Church through the full body of the Scriptures and it is indeed the best the nearest way to the Church

without controul No sure admit they could prescribe for 1600 years must prescription prescribe and out Truth But can they prescribe for 1600 years in any one point where in they differ from us Can they in many for 1000 can they in some for 600 their grand Novelty of Transubstantiation will tell them no and it is well known the slender possession their errours have had hath not been so quiet so peaceable so undisturbed but that Truth hath made her constant and continual claim As for their evidence out of the word of God out of the word of God it is I confesse but it would do much better in it And in it they have so little as their greatest Clerks acknowledge that prayer to the Saints worshipping of their Images celebrating their festivals the not iterating of the Sacraments of Orders and confirmation are taught in Scripture neither expresly nor by implication So Bannes from whom Canus differeth onely in superadding the Sacrifice of the Eucharist As for the Fathers and Councels witnessing to that evidence such as the Scripture evidence is for the Papists such is their witnessing to that evidence just so and no more which more explicitely is just none at all For I challange them to produce any one Father of the first 500 years who held and maintained any one point of Doctrine as the Councel of Trent now holds where differing from us of Doctrine I say for in ceremonies they may I grant find many presidents in antiquity conformable to theirs As for our own acknowledgements sure his Lordship did not in good earnest and seriously think we Reputed and own'd Luther the Hussites the Waldenses for Ours no we always constantly urge them as Romish Catholiques though in some particulars they oppugned her Doctrine Thus his Lordships specious and flashy conclusion is reduced to a meer nothing And his Majesty was at this brunt in no great danger of becoming the Marques his convert Certain Considerations upon Dr BAYLY'S Interlocution concerning the True Church its being Judge of Scripture THe Doctor's Invective against Sacriledge shall create him no trouble from me I desire not to meddle with Impertinencies Since your Majesty was pleased to discharge the Watch which I had set before the Door of my Lips The Watch before the Door of your Lips was it seems of your own setting and because so 't is like his Majesty thought fit to discharge it not desiring to leave them without a Guard but hoping they might be relieved with that which the Prophet David call'd to God for Psalm 141. v. 3. I shall make bold to put your Majesty in minde of holding my Lord to the Demand which your Majesty once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church for if once that Question were throughly determined all Controversies not onely between your Majesty and his Lordship but also all Controversies that ever were would soon be decided at a short race end And is there no way no means to end Controversies but by that which this fifteen hundred years and upward hath been disputed what it is and where to finde it Did God provide so ill for us as to leave us in suspense concerning the main points of Faith untill that Church which is yet in the clouds shall define what is the true sense of that Scripture which must guide us to eternal happinesse And if after 15 hundred years debate this Church were but in view some comfort it were to us but clear it is and a miserable case she is as far off for ought we know as ever for we are not agreed upon those marks and tokens by which she must be known Our Church the Church of England holds the purity of Doctrine preached agreeable to God's Word and Sacraments administred according to Christ's Ordinance to be the notes of it The papists hold they know not how many Bellarmine reckons fifteen but at last reduceth them to four according to the most usual and received Opinion amongst them Unity Holinesse Universality Succession as they are in the Nicene Creed but yet he comes reeling off too giving them no more than an Evidence of Credibility so that if a man will believe them he may and may not if he will and if we were agreed upon the true marks yet should we not be agreed upon the true Church for suppose the four mentioned before and urged by the Church of Rome be they yet we say they are more visible in our Church than in that of Rome There are not amongst us three hundred and three differences in points of Religion as hath been demonstrated in the Church of Rome and therefore ours the greater Unity For Holinesse that is a grace keeps home and stirs little abroad yet if we may judge of it by its fruits the papists cannot shew us more wicked members of our Church than we can them Heads of theirs so the thing Holinesse is ours let the Title be theirs For Universality Rome wherein she differeth from us cannot prove her Assertions from the testimony of the primitive Church in some points for a thousand years not in any for five hundred after Christ so we are the more Catholique Lastly for Succession of Doctrine which is the best Succession we derive ours from all the Apostles Rome onely from Peter derives onely a Succession of Chairs and yet it is not infallibly certain that ever Peter was at Rome much lesse Bishop there and therefore our Succession the best too so that as the case now stands between us we are not like to agree in haste Doctor I wish you could set us through and truly I must needs say in my opinion you have made a fair offer at deciding this Controversie when you said The true Church must be a Society of Men though I can go no further with you for that That Society of Men are to be supreme Judge of Scripture and Controversies Theological will not down with me nor I believe with many more For let that Society of Men be a General Councel which is a supposition of as much advantage to you as you can desire because it represents the Catholique Church and it is but a supposition too for though there have been before the Empire was split General Councels in former times yet as the case stands now it seemeth to wise men an incredible thing that ever such a Councel shall be again and Religion would be in a most sad condition were all controversies to stay for decision till then Besides Doctor it hath befallen some General Councels that there hath been shamefull packing and fore-stalling of Suffrages and Voices before they met and when met many have been frighted and minaced to vote clean contrary to their own sense and such Councels are but ill to be trusted with Questions of Faith in my poor opinion But suppose your Councel met and assembled and with all the fairest carriage and freedom you can desire they are but

lamentable But though to the members of the Church the Authority of the Church be a vehement and strong motive yet to Pagans and Infidels who will own no such thing as a Church it is no motive at all if they question the Scriptures Divinity studious either of cavil or to be converted they must be refuted or invited by arguments drawn from reason wherein they intercommune with us and to speak truth reason will carry them a very great way on towards even to the very brink of Faith reason will tell them that the Soul is immortal that it is not onely capable but desirous of happinesse that that felicity of the Soul cannot consist in either riches honour Beauty strength learning or any earthly thing they being all too narrow for it and too short-lived but in the beatifical vision and contemplation of its Creator who is onely able to fill it and in whose presence is the fulness of joy for evermore It will tell them that though God is their last home videant quo eant they may see whither they should go non habent qua eant yet how to come there is beyond the ken of Reason and that though Religion be the way to him yet dim-sighted reason will never be able to find that way till God himself reveals it for Author de Deo est ipse Deus God himself is and must be the Authour of that which brings us to him and it were inconsistent with the Providence of the All-wise God to withhold from man that means without which impossible it is for man to attain that end for which he was created Therefore Augustine chargeth it hence upon the Pagan Gods as a grosse neglect in not instructing of their worshippers in the way and means to happinesse To the care of the solicitous Gods saith he it did belong not to conceal from their worshippers the rudiments of living well but to teach them by clear publication also to convent and reprove offenders by their Prophets to threaten open punishment to those who do ill and to promise reward to those who live well Reason therefore will thus teach them the necessity of some conveyance from God of his revealed will and that necessity will also infer the actual being of such a Revelation considering that Deus non deficit in necessariis God is not wanting in affording what is necessary This necessity and being of Divine revelation once allowed reason will make it further credible that the Scriptures now received and entertained amongst us Christians as the word of God are indeed and in truth that revealed will of God For first they have no rival there is none other stands in competition with them the Gods of the Ethnicks gave their worshippers none Secondly if there were any other yet none must compare with them they having many Prerogatives above all other These Prerogatives are First Antiquity the Doctrine of them being far ancienter then all other Religions in the world and almost as ancient as time it self had it but begun with Moses it had carried the priority and antecedency of time from all other by the confession of the heathens themselves as Josephus proveth but it was before him Nam unde Noe c. For how was Noah found righteous but by the preceding Justice of the Law of nature How was Abraham reputed the friend of God but by the equity of the same Law How was Melchisedeck called the Priest of the most high God if before the Priest-hood settled by the Levetical Law there were not Priests to offer Sacrifice Nay it was before the Floud even in Paradise it self there was the doctrine of saving Truth first instituted which afterward was not renewed but enlarged was not changed but perfected Secondly the Spirituality of the doctrine as God is a Spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and truth so is the fabrique frame and contrivance of the Scriptures conformable to him 't is not a doctrine of sensuality and dissolutenesse not a doctrine of self-ends and by-respects not a doctrine of worldly pomp and state not a doctrine of wicked principles and discipline but a doctrine of sobriety and of self-denial and of humility and of virtue a doctrine tending onely to God and what is in order to him which sequestreth the soul from all earthly imaginations and cogitations and fixeth them onely upon God Thirdly the perfection of them the excellent symmetry of parts there is nothing lame nothing idle nothing impertinent in them they were not written by chance and at all adventure there 's not a syllable not a tittle but hath a masse of treasure comprehended and contrived in them Fourthly the excellency of the mode stile and form of expression descending to the meanest transcending the highest capacities where God one whiles insinuates himself into the conscience in the language of a familiar Friend another while reclaims it with the indignation of an incensed Judge where Elegancy is without levity and affectation plainnesse without irksonesse and satiety wherein the most curious spirits may be exercised the most ignorant instructed Fifthly the truth of them in the accomplishment of what was there prophesied and we may confidently believe what we see performed as Cyrus his very Name principal atchievements foretold by Esay the end of the Siege of Jerusalem by Jeremiah the translation of the Assyrian Empire to the Medes and Persians by Daniel but most especially the coming of our Saviour Christ the true Messias at the very time designed of seventy Weeks by Daniel 9. 24. The calling of the Gentiles by Esay c. 60. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews by Zechariah 12. 13. Lastly the destruction of the second Temple by Daniel c. 9. And our Saviour Christ Luke 19. 43. Sixthly the miraculous preservation of the Books themselves first against the injuries of neglect as the Law found in the rubbish of the Temple 2 Kings 22. after the wretched neglect thereof in the time of Manasseth Secondly against the injuries of alteration {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} c. For in the Flux of so many Ages no man durst either add diminish or change any part of them for which end Esdras Gamaliel Eleazar and others contrived that excellent Treasure of the Masoreth to denote the diversity of Readings in the Hebrew Text Lastly against the injuries of persecution as in the time of Dioclesian who commanded all the Bibles he could discover to be burnt They who delivered them up being call'd Traditores Traitors a word frequent in Saint Augustine against the Donatists the main quarrell being between the Church and them about the non-reception of those Apostates into the Congregation Seventhly the thrift and propagation of the Gospel in spite of all opposition and persecution By how many Tyrants was the Church afflicted yet never conquered and destroyed The Romans often pruned and lopt its Professors off