the like bowing and kneeling that is vsed to his person and to his image vnto which whosoeuer offereth iuiury is punishable as offering iniury to the King himselfe shall not the honour due to Christ Iesus infinitelie greater so flow out of his person vnto things that belong and concerne him as to make his Image Crosse and such holy monuments of his passion and life venerable for his sake and to be adored with bowing kneeling and other exteriour honour as would be vsed to his person were he visibly present not so that the worship rest in the image but be referred by imagination and affection to the person imagined ANSWER This similitude halteth for the Kings chaire of State and his image when they are honoured or dishonoured are conioyned with his Person by ciuile ordinance and relation but the artificiall image of Christ and of his Crosse c. are not conioyned with Christ by diuine ordination or by relation grounded vpon Christs word but by an imaginary act of the superstitious worshipper also ciuile and religious worship are of diuers beginnings and formes and euery thing that is possible lawfull and commendable in the one is not so in the other IESVIT But the image of Christ being a true representation of God incarnate and able to conuey our imaginations directly and truely towards him 〈◊〉 very 〈◊〉 vnto the parts of his sacred person hath 〈◊〉 right in reason and nature which cannot be taken from it to represent him and to stand in our imaginations for him Wherefore the image of Christ hath a right which without impietie cannot be denyed vnto it to be honoured and outwardly adored for his sake by kneelings bowings 〈◊〉 and kissings referred in mind by deuout thoughts and affections to his person ANSVVER Is the painted image a true representation of Christ incarnate because Romists say so and were it a true representation is it therefore impietie to refuse to worship it Many Doctours both of the Romane and of other Churches haue allowed and maintained the Historicall vse of images which condemned adoration And if it be outwardly to be adored for Christs sake why is it not inwardly also to be adored And if inwardly then either with the same worship wherewith Christ himselfe is adored or with inferiour not with the same for then a creature which is not personally vnited to the Creatour may be honoured as God If with inferiour then either with inferiour honour belonging to the person represented but there is none such or with the honour of some other person but this cannot be because the image of Christ hath reference to no other person but Christ. And if the painted images of Christ and the woodden Crosse whereupon he was crucified were to be adored with 〈◊〉 honour absolute or respectiue much more were the liuely images of Christ to wit the blessed Saints so to be adored and the blessed Virgin aboue all other because she was more neerely conioyned to him than the woodden Crosse. IESVIT And this right is a dignitie which an image of Christ hath aboue other creatures who though they be referred vnto God as to their Author yet God may not be honoured in them in that manner as Christ is honoured in his image ANSVVER This Idolist heapeth conclusion vpon conclusion but hee groundeth them either vpon no premises or vpon such as are sandie How doth it appeare that an image of Christ figured by a Roman Painter hath a dignity aboue other creatures Are Roman Painters more excellent workemen than God himselfe Hath a dead picture and worme-eaten statue greater dignitie than the liuely images of Christ to wit the Saints which are vpon earth and 〈◊〉 in vertue How much more worthy to be beleeued is the saying of Clement If you desire truely to honour the image of God let me open the truth to you Rather yeeld honour and reuerence to man formed after the image of God than to empty and breathlesse figures IESVIT The reason is because creatures represent God their Author so rudely remotely darkely imperfectly that onely spirituall men and perfect Contemplants can acknowledge God in them and so such men onely and that onely priuately to themselues may worship God in and by them which is all that Vasq. so much accused doth teach But as for publique and promiscuous adoring of creatures he condemnes it as vndecent and scandalous saying expressely that Indiscriminatim creaturas adorandas proponere esset multis manifesta causa periculi In which respect Saint Leo reprehends some Christians at Rome that bowed vnto the Sunne mentally referring that bowing vnto God the Author thereof because Panyms seeing that outward action of adoring might imagine that Christians adored the sunne in their superstitious manner the relation which the sunne hath to God as to his Creator not being euident vnto sight But the image of Christ as I said is apparantly so representatiue of Christ that vpon sight thereof our thoughts flye presently to him and his picture is no sooner in our eyes than his person by imagination in our mind neither is there any excellency appearing in the picture worthy to bee adored or sufficient to stay our thoughts and affections in it So that no man can with any probabilitie suspect that any reason besides reuerence to his Maiestie makes vs bow our bodies to his image ANSWER Your reason is no reason but a meere verball asseueration for being reduced to forme it sounds in this manner That which is so representatiue of Christ as that the sight thereof carrieth our thoughts presently by imagination to Christ and yet hath nothing in it worthy of adoration for it selfe hath a right and dignity to be worshipped aboue other creatures which doe so rudely remotely darkely and imperfectly represent God that none but spirituall men and perfect contemplants can acknowledge and worship God in them But artificiall images of Christ c. are representations of the first sort and other creatures are onely representatiue in the latter manner Ergo Painted and carued images of Christ haue a right and dignity to be worshipped aboue other creatures Both Propositions of this Argument are denyed First The Maior is false for imaginarie representation onely without speciall Institution and other grounds in the thing representing may bee onely a motiue and not a terminatiue obiect of Worship as hath formerly beene shewed Secondly The Minor hath no pretext or colour of Truth for some Creatures doe so represent Christ as that they are his liuely Image by Communion and Participation of Grace 2. Pet. 1.4 And they carrie the mindes of Beleeuers by their actions to wit by their Doctrine and Example into the distinct and sauing knowledge of Christ and they stand heere in the world in the roome and stead of Christ by his owne Ordination 2. Cor. 5.20 But Painted and Carued Images represent onely a Bodie and a thing externall And without other meanes people cannot know Christ nor
with himselfe in adoration IESVIT Secondly whereas he saith that the Councell of Nice brought in the worship of Jmages yet forbad that any Image should be adored with diuine honor he both contradicts himselfe and vttereth another manifest falshood He contradicts himselfe in saying that the Nicene Councell forbad diuine worship of any Images Seeing in another place he thus writeth Both the Councell of Nice and the Diuines of the Church of Rome hold the Jmages of God and our Sauiour and the Crosse must be adored with diuine adoration It is apparantly false that the said Nicene Councell brought in the worship of Jmages which might be prooued by many testimonies but this only may suffice that Leo Isauricus before the Councell of Nice opposed Image worship not as then beginning but for many yeares before established in the Church boasting that he was the first Christian Emperor the rest hauing beene Idolaters because they worshipped Images so manifestly did he oppose Antiquitie and so little truth there is in M. Whites Assertion ANSWER The second Nicene Synod brought in the worship of Images not simply but by defining the same to be necessarie and by appointing the practise thereof to be receiued vniuersally otherwise M. Iohn White was not ignorant that the Israelites worshipped molten Images in Dan and Bethell and the Simonians worshipped Images Eusebius Eccles. Hist. lib. 2. ca. 13. and the Gnostickes worshipped Christ his Image Iren. lib. 2. cap. 24. And Marcellina worshipped the Images of Iefu and Paul c. Aug. d. Haer. 7. Haeres The Marsilians also or people thereabout worshipped Images in the daies of Serenus Greg. li. 7. Epist. 109. lib. 9. Epist. 9. But all these were condemned of superstition by the Catholicke Church and the second Nicene Synod was censured and the definition thereof resisted by many as I haue formerly prooued pag. 210. And because the Iesuit rehearseth a storie out of Zonaras an Author which themselues regard not I will requite him with a more certaine Historie out of Roger Houeden a natiue Historian of the affaires of Britaine his words are these Charles the French king sent a Synodal into Britaine directed vnto him from Constantinople in the which booke many things out alas inconuenient and repugnant to right Faith were found especially it was confirmed almost by the vnanimous consent of all the Easterne Doctours no lesse than three hundred or more That Images ought to be worshipped which thing the Church of God doth altogether detest Against which Synodal Booke Albinus wrote an Epistle marueilously confirmed by authoritie of diuine Scripture and carried the same to the French king together with the foresaid Booke in the name of our Bishops and Princes IESVIT Thirdly to passe yet vp higher That Images began in Gregorie the Great his time and that he forbad the worship of them containes other three falshoods First Gregorie is abused who onely commanded that none should worship Images as Gods 〈◊〉 as Gentiles did that some Godhead was affixed vnto them as he elsewhere declareth himselfe And so manifestly did he teach Image worship establishing Pilgrimages vnto them by Indulgences as Frier Bale accuseth him thereof Yea M. Symonds and M. Bale write that Leo an hundred and fortie yeares before Gregorie decreed the worship of Images ANSWER Gregories words are Imagines adorare omnibus modis deuita By all meanes shunne the worshipping of Images Aliud est Picturam adorare aliud per Picturae historiam quid sit adorandum addiscere It is one thing to worship a Picture another by the storie of the Picture to learne what is to be worshipped Non ad adorandum in Ecclesijs sed ad instruendas solummodo mentes fuit nescientium collocatum It was placed in the Church only to instruct the minds of the ignorant and not to be worshipped And in another Epistle Quatenus literarum nescij haberent vndè scientiae historiam colligerent First in these passages of S. Gregorie we find no vse of Images allowed but onely historicall Secondly he saith positiuely They are not set vp to be worship ped but onely to instruct the ignorant And although in the place obiected he saith Non vt quasi Deum colas Not that thou shouldest worship them as God yet he doth not approoue the worshipping of them any other way but addeth We do not bow downe before them as before the Dietie he saith not quasi ad Dietatem as to the Dietie sed quasi ante as before the Dietie Thirdly Cassander a learned Papist confesseth ingenuously That Gregorie the Great forbad all worship of Images But our latter Idolists vse no measure or modestie in eluding and peruerting the euident sentences of the Fathers IESVIT Secondly Polydore in this point is egregiously falsified for he saieth not as the Minister makes him speake All Fathers condemned the worship of Jmages for feare of idolatry but his words are cultum Imaginum teste Hieronimo omnes veteres Patres damnabant metu Idololatriae All the old Fathers as Hierom witnesseth did condemne worship of Images for feare of idolatrie by the old Fathers meaning the Fathers of the Old Testament not of the New which appeares because in proofe of his saying he brings not the testimonie of any Father of the New Testament but onely of the Old as of Moses Dauid Ieremie and other Prophets and the scope of the whole Chapter is to declare that the reason why in the Old Testament the Fathers misliked the worship of the Images of God was because they could not paint him aright Cum Deum nemo vidisset vnquam because then no man had seene God Afterwards God saith Polidore hauing taken flesh and being become visible to mortall eyes men flocked vnto him and did without doubt behold and reuerence his face shining with the brightnesse of diuine light and euen then they began to paint or carue his Image alreadie imprinted in their minds and those Images saith he they receiued with great worship and veneration as was reason the honour of the Image redounding to the originall as Basill writes Which custome of adoring Images the Fathers were so farre from reproouing as they did not only admit therof but also decreed and commanded the same by generall Councels in the time of Iustinian the second and Constantine his sonne What man then is there so dissolute and audatious as can dreame of the contrarie and doubt of the lawfulnesse of this worship established so long agoe by the decree of most holy Fathers Thus writeth Polidore and much more to the same purpose in the verie place where the Minister citeth him to the contrarie which shewes how notoriously his credulous Readers are abused in matters of most moment whence appeareth the third falshood that in Gregories daies Images began to be set vp in Churches which to haue beene in Churches long before the testimonies of S. Basil Paulinus Lactantius and Tertullian doe
heauier if wee mis-lead on eytherside than theirs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vs. But I see I must looke to my selfe for you are secure For F. Dr White said I hath secured me that none of our Errors be damnable so long as wee hold them not against our Conscience And I hold none against my Conscience B. It seemes then you haue two Securities Dr Whites Assertion and your Conscience What Assurance Dr White 〈◊〉 you I cannot tell of my selfe nor as things stand may I rest vpon your Relation It may be you vse him no better than you doe the Bishop And sure it is so For I haue since spoken with Dr White and hee auowes this and no other Answere Hee was asked in the conferense betweene you Whether Popish Errors were Fundamentall To 〈◊〉 hee gaue 〈◊〉 by distinction of the persons which held and professed the Errors namely That the Errors were Fundamentall reductiue by a Reducement if they which embraced them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 adhere to them hauing sufficient 〈◊〉 to be better enformed nay further that they were materially and in the verie kind and nature of them Leauen Drosse Hay and Stubble Yet hee thought withall that such as were mis-led by Education or long Custome or over-valuing the 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 Church and did in 〈◊〉 of heart embrace them might by their generall 〈◊〉 and Faith in the Merit of Christ attended with Charitie 〈◊〉 other Vertues find mercie at Gods hands But that hee should say Signanter and expressely That none eyther of yours or your fellowes 〈◊〉 were damnable so long as you hold them not against Conscience that hee vtterly disauowes You deliuered nothing to 〈◊〉 such a Confession from him And for your selfe hee could obserue but small loue of Truth few signes of Grace in you as hee tells mee Yet hee will not presume to iudge you or your Saluation it is the Word of Christ that must iudge you as the latter Day For your Conscience you are the happier in your Error that you hold nothing against it especially if you speake not against it while you say so But this no man can know but your Conscience For no man knowes the thoughts of a man but the spirit of a man that is within him to which I leaue you But yet you leaue not For you tell me F. The doubting partie asked Whether shee might be saued in the Protestants Faith Vpon 〈◊〉 Soule said the B. you may Vpon my Soule said I there is but one sauing Faith and that is the Romane B. So it seemes the B. was confident for the Faith professed in the Church of England else hee would not haue taken the Saluation of another vpon his Soule And sure hee had reason of his Confidence For to beleeue the Scripture and the Creeds to beleeue these in the sense of the antient Primitiue Church to receiue the foure great Generall Councels so much magnified by Antiquitie to beleeue all Points of Doctrine generally receiued as Fundamentall in the Church of Christ is a Faith in which to liue and die cannot but giue Saluation And therefore the B. went vpon a sure ground in the aduenture of his Soule vpon that Faith Besides in all the Points of Doctrine that are controuerted betweene vs. I would faine see anie one Point maintained by the Church of England that can bee prooued to depart from the Foundation You haue manie dangerous Errors about it in that which you call the Romane Faith But there I leaue you to looke to your owne Soule and theirs whom you seduce Yet this is true too That there is but one sauing Faith But then euerie thing which you call De Fide Of the Faith because some Councell or other hath defined it is not such a breach from that one sauing Faith as that hee which expressely beleeues it not nay as that hee which beleeues the contrarie is excluded from Saluation And Bellarmine is forced to graunt this There are manie things de Fide which are not absolutely necessarie to Saluation Therefore there is a Latitude in Faith especially in reference to Saluation To set a Bound to this and strictly to define it Iust thus farre you must beleeue in euerie particular or incurre Damnation is no worke for my Penne. These two things I am sure of One That your peremptorie establishing of so manie things that are remote Deductions from the Foundation hath with other Errors lost the Peace and Vnitie of the Church for which you will one day answere And the other That you are gone further from the Foundation of this one sauing Faith than can euer bee prooued wee haue done But to conclude you tell vs F. Vpon this and the precedent Conferences the Ladie rested in iudgement fully satisfied as shee told a confident friend of the Truth of the Romane Churches Faith Yet vpon frailetie and feare to offend the King shee yeelded to goe to Church For which shee was after verie sorrie as some of her friends can testifie B. This is all personall And how that Honourable Ladie is settled in Conscience how in Iudgement I know not This I thinke is made cleare enough That that which you said in this and the precedent Conferences could settle neyther vnlesse in some that were settled or setting before As little doe I know what shee told anie Friend of the Romane Cause No more whether it were frailetie or feare that made her yeeld to goe to Church nor how sorrie shee was for it nor who can testifie that sorrow This I am sure of If shee repent and God forgiue her other sinnes shee will farre more easily bee able to answere for her comming to Church than shee will for the leauing of the Church of England and following the Superstitions and Errors which the Romane Church hath added in point of Faith and worship of God I pray God giue her Mercie and all of you a Light of his Truth and a Loue to it first that you may no longer be made Instruments of the Popes boundlesse Ambition and this most vnchristian braine-sicke Deuice That in all Controuersies of the Faith hee is infallible and that by way of Inspiration and Prophesie in the Conclusion which hee giues To due consideration of this and Gods Mercie in Christ I leaue you FINIS Optat. lib. 3. c. Parmen Aug. c. Cresc lib. 3. ca. 51. Isid. d. sum bon lib. 3. ca. 53. Aug. Epist. 48. ad Vincent Idem Ep. 52. ad Macedon Idem Ep. 61. ad Dulcit Euseb. Hist. Eccles li. 10. ca. 9. Et d. vit Const. li. i. ca. 37. Ministrorum Dei coegit Concilium lib. 2. c. 43. lib. 3. ca. 6 10 12 16 17 18 23. Interdum 〈◊〉 quae ad Ecclesiarum Dei commodū spectabant prescribendo ib. ca. 63. lib. 4. c. 14. c. 18. Festos dies instituit ca. 22 23 27. Episcoporū Decreta cōfirmauit Theoderit Hist. Eccles li. 1. cap. 7. August d. Ciu. Dei li. 5. c. 25. Tertul. ad
cannot vse it so the Scriptures are a meanes to conuict proteruious 〈◊〉 as they were vsed by Christ and his Apostles and by the 〈◊〉 Councels or Papall Councels and the Bishops and Doctors of the Roman Church c. Answ. First Our Sauiour and his Apostles did both vse the Scriptures themselues and commanded others euen simple men to vse them Iohn 5 39. Ephes. 6 17. and they are commended who examined Doctrine by them Acts 17 11. Secondly they which vnderstand and applie the Scriptures truely vse them as Christ and his Apostles did and so the Scripture in their vse is a word of power and not as a sword in a childs hand Thirdly Scriptures were meanes to conuict Hereticks as they were vsed by the Fathers of the Church and other holie Persons before any generall Councells were gathered to wit the first three hundred yeares and before the Papall Supremacie was aduanced in the Church Fourthly it is ridiculous to imagine that the present Roman Church and the sole Adheres thereof according to the Trident Creed are the only true expositors of holy Scriptures or that 〈◊〉 exposition of Scripture repugnant and diuers from the present Roman Creed is false or Haereticall for neither hath the holie Ghost by expresse testimonie or euident demonstration appropriated the key of knowledge to this Church and few Heretickes haue more fouly corrupted and abused the Scriptures And the pillars of this Church 〈◊〉 sundrie times been vnskilfull Ideots vnlettered Gulls Monsters of mankind with whom the holie Spirit vseth not to haue commerce Wisdom 1. 2. Cor. 6. 15. Fiftly the place of Tertul. d. Praescript c. 19. doth not 〈◊〉 the imperfection of holie Scripture to conuict proteruious error according to the latter part of my former distinction for then he could not haue said Scripturae plenitudinem adoramus We adore the plenitude of the 〈◊〉 and Let Hermogenes teach that it is written and if it be not written let him feare the Wo denounced against them which add or detract any thing from the word of God but be 〈◊〉 of the Scriptures according to the first part of my distinction to wit That Heretickes blinded with malice and either denying or corrupting the text of the Scriptures cannot be so conuicted by them but they will still vse cauils and by Sophisticall slights borrowed from Philosophers elude the euidence of the plaine Texts of Scriptures But if this argue the Scriptures of imperfection it will also prooue the Authoritie of the Church and of Tradition to be insufficient as appeares in the Arrians and Donatists And Heretickes may with no lesse pretext take exception against Tradition and Ecclesiasticall Authoritie than against the Scripture Ireneus li. 3. ca. 2. When they are confuted by Scriptures they accuse them as being not well written and destitute of Authoritie or else so ambiguous that one cannot find the Truth by them c. And in like manner when we prouoke them to stand to triall by Tradition which came from the Apostles c. they oppose the same c. And thus they will consent neither to Scripture nor Tradition And Gregorie Valence himselfe saith The infallible teaching and proposition of the Church is no lesse obscure vnto vs than any other Article which we are to beleeue Sixtly we acknowledge the lawfull Power and Authoritie of the Church about expounding holy Scriptures and for maintaining Vnitie in right Faith and appeasing contention repressing proteruious Errants Heb. 13.17 Math. 18.17.1 Timoth. 3.15 2. Thessal 5.12 And in particular first wee beleeue the authority of Councels General and Nationall lawfully assembled and accordingly proceeding to be sacred And all Councels of this nature we reuerence with the same honour the ancient Church did affirming that priuate Christians and particular Churches are to submit their iudgement to the authority of the same except it bee manifest that they depart from Truth Secondly wee highly and reuerently esteeme exposition of Scripture deliuered by the vnanimous consent of the Primatiue Fathers and although wee yeeld eminent and supreme Authoritie to the holy Scriptures because the same is absolutely diuine yet when any question ariseth concerning Expositions we allow not priuate persons vpon vncertaine or probable reasons to reiect the sence which hath bin antiently and commonly receiued and against which no strong or solid exception can be produced Now this being obserued and other helps of expounding Scripture vsed there followeth nothing from our Tenet whereby Christianitie should be made vncertaine and Disputation from sole Scripture prooue fruitles or which may hinder apparent Victorie by the same against proteruious Error IESVIT The Preface ended our Aduersarie descendeth to his disputation and herein first he setteth downe a maine proposition which hee intendeth to prooue to wit The Roman Church is the onely true Church Secondly He deliuereth fiue Principles manifest in themselues and presupposed and confessed by Papists and Protestants Principle 1. No man can be saued without firme and sure apprehension of supernaturall Truth concerning his last end and the meanes to attaine thereunto Secondly Assurance of this kind is not had by cleere sight Demonstration humane Discourse or humane Authoritie but by Faith grounded vpon Gods Word reuealing things vnknowne by other meanes Thirdly God reuealed all Supernaturall Truth to Christ and Christ reuealed the same to the holy Apostles partly by vocall Preaching but principally by the immediate teaching of his holy Spirit to this end that they should deliuer them to mankind to bee receiued and beleeued euerie where ouer the World euen to the consummation thereof Fourthly the Apostles fulfilled this preaching to all Nations and deliuering partly by writing and partly by word of mouth the whole entire Doctrine of Saluation planted an vniuersall Christian companie and to deliuer vnto 〈◊〉 all they had 〈◊〉 from them Fiftly though the Apostles and their Primatiue Hearers be deceased yet there still remaines in the World a meanes by which men may assuredly know what the Apostles preached andthe Primatiue Church receiued of them because the Church euen to the endof the World must be founded on the Apostles and beleeue nothing as matter of Faith but that which was deliuered by them The former grounds being confessed a question remaineth to be examined What is the principall infallible meanes whereby a Christian may know what was and is the Doctrine of Faith originally preached by the Apostles Whether holy Scripture of the Apostles and Euangelists bee that meanes or perpetuall Tradition vnwritten deriued by Succession from the Apostles ANSVVER The Iesuit affirmeth the latter and produceth foure Arguments to prooue his Tenet and then supposing that he hath prooued the Question inferreth that the Roman Church is the only true Church because it is the only faithfull keeper and teacher of this Tradition IESVITS 1. Argument If the maine and substantiall points of our Faith are
that Papists adore and worship Images with some kind of reall worship to wit such as the Trident Councell expresly defineth for if such adoration of Images bee an Article of Faith and not onely a thing Adiaphorous but a necessarie dutie then the same must haue apparant ground in Diuine Reuelation but if it be neuer commanded or prescribed in the Old or New Testament nor was for sundrie ages affirmed by Orthodoxall Fathers to be an Apostolicall Tradition and yet the Trent Councell presumeth to make it diuine obliging all Christians vpon paine of damnation to the beliefe and practise thereof Protestants haue iust cause to condemne this doctrine and to refuse conformitie with Papists in the practise thereof Papists condemne those of heresie which refuse to worship Images where they haue power they burne them to Ashes They hold it lawfull to dethrone Kings and Princes from their royall dignitie for opposing this practise It must therefore be necessarie for them to demonstrate their Tenet by manifest Testimonies or Arguments taken from diuine Reuelation and not to triflle off the time in bequarrelling Iohn White concerning the meaning of the Trident Councell For it is apparant that the Councell intendeth to make that an Article of 〈◊〉 which hath no foundation in the rule of Faith and it yeeldeth libertie to the most grosse opinions which former Papists held concerning adoration of Images And it is sufficient for Protestants to manifest thus much IESVIT Nor is Maister Whites Argument good We worship Christ and his Image by the same Act but the worship of Christ is diuine honour Ergo The worship of the Image is diuine honour for this prooueth 〈◊〉 That the worship of the Image is diuine as referred to Christ not as referred vnto the Image Otherwise if Maister White should helpe to pull his fellow Ministers horse out of the mire 〈◊〉 thereunto out of Christian charitie and friendship one might by the like Argument prooue that he beareth Christian charitie towards horses for he relieueth the horse and pleasureth his friend by one and the same Act. The pleasuring of his friend is an Act of Christian charitie towards him Ergo The pulling the horse out of the mire is an Act of Christian charitie towards the horse A foolish Argument because that one Act is vertually twofold as referred to the man owner of the horse Christian charity as referred to the horse onely no charitie at all but a baser kind of loue and that for his friends sake The like is when wee kisse with our corporall lips the feet of the Image of Christ at the same time by deuout and reuerent imagination kissing his true feet represented by the Image we honour Christ and his Image by one and the same Physicall Act and that Act is diuine Worship though not diuine as referred to the Image but onely as referred vnto Christ. A thing so easily vnderstood by learned men as I meruaile Ministers vnderstand it not or will wrangle in a matter so cleare if they sincerely seeke truth ANSWER The Argument which you father vpon Maister Iohn White and whereunto you apply your flearing and myerie similitude is not extant in his Way to the Church pag. 400. So farre therefore as I can obserue you fight with your owne shaddow But if the Argument had beene propounded in this manner Many learned Papists to wit Aquinas and the Maior part of the Schoole adore the Artificiall Images of Christ as they are conioyned with the Samplar with the Act of Latria Therefore they adore some Images with Diuine worship I cannot perceiue that your nice distinctions of Physicall and vertuall acts diuine as referred to Christ not diuine as referred to the Image would haue beene sufficient to vindicate your Tenet from the mud of superstition for that which is worshipped with any act matorially or formally of Latria is worshipped with diuine honour at least in part or by accident But no degree of diuine honour can iustly be yeelded to any creature which is not substantially vnited to the Deitie or at least wise which is not by some diuine Ordinance accidentally vnited and made capable of such adoration But no artificiall Images are thus vnited and no diuine ordinance exalteth them to such a dignitie IESVIT And though the Ignorant vnderstand not the tearmes of Theologie by which Diuines declare the manner of honouring the Prototype and the Jmage both by one Act yet may they honour an Jmage as securely and with as little danger and erring as any that vnderstand them For as the Clowne who knowes no more of the nature of motion than that he is to set one foot before another doth mooue in the very same manner as Philosophers who 〈◊〉 that Action by tearmes most obscure of intrinsecall and extrinsecall beginning and ending and per vltimum non esse primum non 〈◊〉 So likewise a Catholicke that vnderstands no more of honouring Christ his Image than that he is by beholding the Jmage to remember Christ and with pious and affectuous imaginations to adore him doth honour our Sauiour and his Image by one and the same Act as truly verily and religiously as the greatest Diuine that can learnedly explicate the manner how that Adoration is performed as being done outwardly relatiuely and transitorily vnto the Image inwardly affectuously absolutely finally vnto Christ. ANSWER Although this Assertion is false and the Proofe thereof borrowed from a similie is impertinent for vulgar persons among you commit grosse Idolatrie in Image Worship as they which haue liued beyond Seas and some of your own part report neither is there the same reason of naturall motion and the exercise of religious actions yet because it serueth not to prooue the Assumption of your maine Sillogisme to wit Protestants cannot assigne any time when Image worship began c. I will not insist vpon the examination of it The latter branch of this Clause to wit Adoration is performed to Images as being done outwardly relatiuely and transitorily vnto the Image inwardly affectuously absolutely and finally vnto Christ is boldly affirmed but not confirmed by any Argument First how proue you by diuine reuelation and testimonie that adoration is to be performed according to your distinction of outwardly relatiuely and transitorily to Images And against such loose and voluntarie presumptions we say with S. Chrisostome Diuinae Scripturae testimonia sequamur neque feramus eos qui timerè quiduis blaterant we are to follow 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 testimonie of diuine Scripture and not to regard them which at rouers and without ground blatter out what they please Secondly if you adore Images outwardly relatiuely and transitorily then you make Images a partiall obiect of adoration but God himselfe who saith I will not giue my glorie to another to wit in whole or in part neither my praise to grauen Images Esa. 42.8 hath excluded Images from copartnership
still sollicitous though secure of their owne as S. Cyprian writes ANSVVER The blessed Saints in Heauen can desire that only which is according to the will of God Math. 6. 10. But that it pleaseth God they shall desire to know and vnderstand all the particular actions and occurrents of people on earth or that they shall desire to know the honour which is done to them in the inferiour world must be beleeued as a matter of Faith when the Papals prooue it by diuine Reuelation And although according to S. Cyprian blessed Saints are sollicitous of the Saluation of the Chucrh militant yet it followeth not Ergo they heare the petitions of the liuing for a father dwelling in London which hath his sonne at Constantinople is sollicitous of his sonnes safetie and yet he vnderstandeth not all the particulars about him IESVIT Wherefore our Doctrine that Saints see our prayers being deliuered so constantly by the antient Fathers so conformable to the principles of Christian beleefe about the blessednesse of Saints so consonant vnto expresse passages of Scripture we may easily expect that vnto Protestants it would not be displeasing did they looke on it with vnpartiall eyes specially they hauing no Text of Scripture that may make so much shew of direct opposition against it ANSWER Your insinuations are coniecturall and at the best seemingly plausible but your disputation is weake wherefore we admire your confidence in a case so groundlesse and intreat you either to argue more soundly or else to be lesse vaineglorious in your conclusions IESVIT The place continually obiected out of the Prophet Esay Abraham knew vs not Israell was ignorant of vs thou O Lord art our Father thou our Redeemer hath this sence that Abraham and Iacob when they did liue vpon earth and carnally beget children did not know particularly their posterities and so could not beare them such particular affection whereas God can and doth distinctly see and know their necessities and prouides against them deliuering his children out of them And therefore he is the onely Father the onely Redeemer Abraham and Iacob not deseruing the name of Father in comparison with God What makes this against the Saints hearing our prayers ANSVVER We receiued our exposition of this place of Esay cap. 63.16 out of S. Augustine and I marueile why the Iesuit reiecteth the same and chuseth a worse because his owne party confesseth that Abraham and the Patriarkes liuing in the darke lake of Limbus did not heare the prayers of their posteritie nor behold and vnderstand the affaires of their children liuing vpon earth IESVIT §. 3. The worship of Spirit and Truth with outward prostration of the bodie due vnto Saints THe third cause of their dislike is That we giue the honor of the Creator vnto the creature honoring Saints with religious worship with worship of Spirit and Truth euen to the prostrating of our bodies before them whereby we giue them honor due to God only and bring in many Gods as the Heathens do To this Obiection made long ago by Faustus the Manichee S. Austine answereth in these words The Christian people doth celebrate with religious solemnitie the memories of Martyrs to the end to stirre vp themselues to their imitation and that they may be assisted with their prayers and associated vnto their merits c. but with the worship tearmed in Greeke Latria and which the Latine language cannot expresse in one word being a certaine subiection and seruitude due properly to the Deitie only wee do not honour any but onely God nor thinke that this honour ought to be giuen but only to him These words of S. Augustine shew the worship of Saints to be on the one side more than ciuile and on the other side lesse than diuine more than ciuile as proceeding out of acknowledgement of the excellencie Saints haue superior vnto all naturall by which they be partakers of diuine perfection in that high degree as no substance can by natureparticipate therof and therfore S. Austine with good reason tearmes it religious Lesse than diuine as proceeding from persuasion of excellency though superhumane yet infinitely inferiour vnto the increate and immence excellencie of God yea depending essentially thereof So that honor is giuen them dependently of God as being superexcellent participants of his perfection and his singular friends ANSVVER Our Argument is All religious worship is due to God onely Papists yeeld to Saints some religious worship Ergo Papists yeeld to Saints some worship due to God onely The Iesuit pretendeth to answere by distinction out of St. Augustine saying That religious worship is either simply Diuine and founded vpon infinite and increate excellencie called Latria or else superhumane founded vpon Grace and Glorie which is an excellencie finite and created Papists yeeld the latter kinde of religious worship to blessed Saints and Angels but not the former To this Answere Protestants replie saying That there are no other kindes of worship than there be Tables of the Morall Law But there are onely two Tables of the Morall Law the former whereof teacheth Diuine Worship and the second humane ciuile or of speciall obseruance And if there be a mixt worship partly Diuine and partly humane so much thereof as is Diuine is proper to God and may not be imparted to any Creature Esay 42.8 But against this they obiect That to euery kinde and degree of excellencie there is a worship due proportionall to that excellencie But blessed Saints and Angels haue a speciall kinde and degree of excellencie superiour to theirs which liue vpon earth Therefore a speciall honour proportioned to their excellencie and superiour to humane is due vnto them It is answered That granting in blessed Saints and Angels an excellencie of Grace and Glorie and Honour due in respect of the same this prooueth not that they are to bee adored with religious worship for then holy persons vpon earth may bee worshipped with religious worship But the vertue of Religion according to the Tenet of the Schoole respecteth immedately increated excellencie and Latria and Religion are all one and if Saints and Angels may be worshipped with religious worship they may bee serued with the worship of Latria And if they answer that worship of Saints is a materiall action of religion this answer is confuted by the schoolemen themselues who also affirme that the worship of Saints c. is an act of Dulia and not of Religion or Latria The place obiected out of S. Augustin c. Faust. Manich. li. 20. c. 2 1 is made to speake that by the Aduersarie which the holy father intendeth not for he tearmeth not the honour exhibited by the true Church to the persons of Martyrs religious but he saith onely Populus Christianus memorias martyrum religiosa solemnitate concelebrat Christian people celebrate the memorials of Martyrs with religious solemnitie And then expounding himselfe in the progresse of the chapter
Nationall Councels and Nationall Councels by 〈◊〉 or Generall And euen Plenarie Councels themselues may be amended the former by the latter It seemes it was no newes with S. Augustine that a Generall Councell might erre and therefore inferior to the Scripture which may neither be doubted nor disputed where it affirmes And if it be so with the definition of a Councell too as Stapleton would haue it That that may neither be doubted nor disputed Where is then the Scriptures Prerogatiue I know there is much shifting about this place but it cannot be wrastled off Stapleton sayes first That S. Augustine speakes of the Rules of Manners and Discipline And this is Bellarmines last shift Both are out and Bellarmine in a Contradiction Bellarmine in a Contradiction For first hee tells vs Generall Councels cannot erre in Precepts of Manners and then to turne off S. Augustine in this place he tells vs That if S. Augustine doth not speake of matter of Fact but of Right and of vniuersall Questions of Right then he is to be vnderstood of Precepts of Manners not of Points of Faith Where he hath first runne himselfe vpon a Contradiction and then wee haue gayned this ground vpon him That either his Answere is nothing or else against his owne state of the Question A Generall Councell can erre in Precepts of Manners and both are out For the whole dispute of S. Augustine is against the Error of Cyprian followed by the 〈◊〉 That true Baptisme could not be giuen by Heretikes and such as were out of the Church And the proofe which Stapleton and Bellarmine draw out of the subsequent words When by any experiment of things that which was shut is opened is too weake For experiment there is not of Fact nor are the words conclusum est as if it were of a Rule of Discipline concluded as Stapleton cites them but a further experiment or proofe of the Question in hand and pertaining to Faith which was then shut vp and as S. Augustine after speakes wrapped vp in cloudie darkenesse Next Stapleton will haue it That if S. Augustine doe speake of a Cause of Faith then his meaning is that latter Generall Councels can mend that is explicate more perfectly that Faith which lay hid in the Seed of antient Doctrine He makes instance That about the Diuinitie of Christ the Councell of Ephesus explicated the first of Nice Chalcedon both of them Constance Chalcedon And then concludes In all which things none of these Councels taught that which was erroneous An excellent Conclusion These Councels and These in this thing taught no Error and were onely explained Therefore no Councell can erre in any matter of Faith or therefore S. Augustine speakes not of an emendation of Error but of an explanation of Sense whereas euerie Eye sees neither of these can follow Now that S. Augustine meant plainely That euen a Plenarie Councell might erre and that often for that is his word and that in matter of Faith and might and ought so to be amended in a latter Councell I thinke will thus appeare First his word is Emendari amend which properly supposes for Error and faultinesse not explanation And S. Augustine needed not goe to a word of such a forced sense nor sure would especially in a Disputation against Aduersaries Next S. Augustines Dispute is against S. Cyprian and the Councell held at Carthage about Baptisme by Heretikes in which point that Nationall Councell erred as all now agree And S. Augustines deduction goes on Scripture cannot be other than right that is the prerogatiue of it but Bishops may and be Reprehended for it if peraduenture they erre from the Truth and that either by more learned Bishops or by Prouinciall Councels Here Reprehension and that for deuiation from the Truth is I hope Emendation properly and not Explanation onely Then Prouinciall Councels they must yeeld to Generall and to yeeld is not in case of Explanation onely Then it followes that euen Plenarie Councels themselues may be amended the former by the latter still retayning that which went before If peraduenture they erred or made deuiation from the Truth And if this be not so I would faine know why in one and the same tenure of words in one and the same continuing Argument and deduction of S. Augustine Reprehendi should be in proper sense and à veritate deuiatum in proper sense and Cedere in proper sense and onely Emendari should not be proper but stand for an Explanation If you say the reason is because the former words are applyed to men and Nationall Councels both which may erre but this last to Generall Councels which cannot erre this is most miserable begging of the Principle and thing in question Againe S. Augustine concludes there That the Generall Councell preceding may be amended by Generall Councels that follow When that is knowne which lay hid before Not as Stapleton would haue it lay hid as in the Seed of antient Doctrine onely and so needed nothing but explanation but hid in some darkenesse or ambiguitie which led the former into error and mistaking as appeares For S. Augustine would haue this amendment made without sacrilegious Pride doubtlesse of insulting vpon the former Councell that was to be amended and without swelling Arrogancie sure against the weakenesse in the former Councell and without contention of Enuie which vses to accompanie mans frailetie where his or his friends error is to be amended by the latter Councell and in holy Humilitie in Catholike Peace in Christian Charitie no question that a Schisme be not made to teare the Church as here the Donatists did while one Councell goes to reforme the Lapse of another if any be Now to what end should this learned Father be so zealous in this worke this highest worke that I know in the Church Reuiewing and surueying Generall Councels to keepe off Pride and Arrogancie and Enuie and to keepe all in Humilitie Peace and Charitie if after all this noyse he thought latter Councels might doe nothing but amend that is explaine the former That shift which Bellarmine addes to these two of Stapleton is poorest of all namely That S. Augustine speakes of vnlawfull Councels and it is no question but they may be amended as the second Ephesine was at Calcedon for this Answere giues vp the case For it graunts That a Councell may erre and be amended in Doctrine of Faith and in case it be not amended condemned and reiected by the Church as this of Ephesus and diuerse others were And as for that meere Tricke of the Popes Instruction Approbation or Confirmation to preserue it from Error or ratifie it that it hath not erred the most antient Church knew it not Hee had his Suffrage as other great Patriarkes had and his Vote was highly esteemed not onely for his place but for worth too as Popes were then But that the
Heauen especially to them that haue had the Truth manifested the heart of this Argument were broken Besides the force of this Argument lyes vpon two things one expressed the other vpon the By. First That which is expressed is Wee and our Aduersaries consent That there is saluation to some in the Romane Church What would you haue vs as malicious at least as rash as your selues are to vs and denie you so much as possibilitie of saluation If wee should wee might make you in some things straine for a Proofe But wee haue not so learned Christ as eyther to returne euill for euill in this headie course or to denie Saluation to some ignorant silly Soules whose humble peaceable obedience makes them safe among any part of men that professe the Foundation Christ. And therefore seeke not to helpe our cause by denying this comfort to silly Christians as you most fiercely doe where you can come to worke vpon them And this was an old Tricke of the Donatists For in the Point of Baptisme Whether that Church or in the part of Donatus they 〈◊〉 all to be baptised among them Why because both parts 〈◊〉 that 〈◊〉 was true 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 which that peeuish Sect most vniustly denyed the sound part as S. Augustine deliuers it I would aske now Had not they Orthodoxe Baptisme among them because the Donatists denyed it iniuriously Or should the Orthodoxe against Truth haue denyed Baptisme among the Donatists to crie 〈◊〉 with them Or that their Argument might not be the stronger because both parts graunted But marke this how farre you runne from all common Principles of Christian Peace as well as Christian Truth while you denie Saluation most vniustly to vs from which you are further off your selues Besides if this were or could be made a concluding Argument I pray why doe not you beleeue with vs in the Point of the Eucharist For all sides agree in the Faith of the Church of England That in the most blessed Sacrament the worthie Receiuer is by his Faith made spiritually partaker of the true and Reall Bodie and Bloud of Christ truly and really and of all the benefits of his Passion Your 〈◊〉 adde a manner of this his presence Transubstantiation which manie denie and the Lutherans a manner of this presence Consubstantiation which more denie If this Argument be good then euen for this consent it is safer communicating with the Church of England than with the Romane or Lutheran because all agree in this Truth not in any other Opinion And therefore if you will force the Argument to make that the safest way of Saluation which differing parts agree on Why doe you not yeeld to the force of the same Argument in the 〈◊〉 of the Sacrament one of the most immediate meanes of Saluation where not onely the most but all agree Secondly The other vpon the By which helpesthis Argument is your continuall poore Out-crie against vs That wee cannot be saued because wee are 〈◊〉 of the Church Sure if I thoughtI were out I would get in as fast as I could But what doe you meane by Out of the Church Sure out of the Romane Church Why but the Romane Church and the Church of England are but two distinct members of that Catholike Church which is spread ouer the face of the Earth Therefore Rome is not the House where the Church dwells but Rome it selfe as well as other particular Churches dwells in this great Vniuersall House vnlesse you will shut vp the Church in Rome as the Donatists did in Africke I come a little lower Rome and other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are in this 〈◊〉 to whom 〈◊〉 Christ the care of the Household is committed by God the Father and the Catholike Church the Mother of 〈◊〉 Christians Rome as an elder Sister had a great 〈◊〉 committed vnto her in and from the prime times of the Church and to her Bishop in her but at this time to 〈◊〉 passe manie 〈◊〉 that 〈◊〉 formerly beene in the House England and some other Sisters of hers are fallen out in the House What then Will the Father and the Mother God and the Church 〈◊〉 one Child out because another is angrie with it Or when did Christ giue that Power to the Elder Sister 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and her 〈◊〉 the Bishop there should thrust out what Child 〈◊〉 pleased Especially when shee her selfe is 〈◊〉 accused to haue giuen the offence that is taken in the House Or will not both Father and Mother be sharper to her for this vniust and vnnaturall vsage of her younger Sisters but their 〈◊〉 Children Nay is it not the next way to make them 〈◊〉 her out of doores that is so 〈◊〉 to the rest It is well for all Christian men and Churches that the Father and Mother of them are 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 as some would haue them And Saluation need not be feared of any 〈◊〉 Child 〈◊〉 outing from the Church because this Elder 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are discouered in the House and 〈◊〉 growne 〈◊〉 for it to them that complayned But as Children crie when they are awaked so doe you and 〈◊〉 with all that come 〈◊〉 you And 〈◊〉 confesses That yee were in 〈◊〉 dead sleepe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 much 〈◊〉 when the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you Now if you can prooue that Rome is 〈◊〉 the Catholike Church it selfe as you commonly call it speake out and 〈◊〉 it In the meane time you may 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 too if you will and it seemes you doe for here you forget 〈◊〉 what the B. said to you 〈◊〉 The doubting Person said the B. to me may be better saued in it than you B. 〈◊〉 that is easier than you than 〈◊〉 man that knowes so much of Truth and opposes against it as you and your 〈◊〉 doe How farre you know Truth other men may iudge by your proofes and causes of Knowledge but how 〈◊〉 you oppose it when it is knowne that is within and no man can know but God and your selues Howsoeuer where the Foundation is but held there for ordinarie men it is not the 〈◊〉 of vnderstanding but the simplicitie of beleeuing that makes them safe For Saint Augustiue speakes there of men in the Church and no man can be simply said to be out of the visible Church that is baptized and holds the Foundation And as it is the simplicitie of beleeuing that makes them safe yea safest so is it sometimes a quicknesse of vnderstanding that louing it selfe and some by respects too well makes men take vp an vnsafe way about the Faith So that there is no question but manie were saued in corrupted times of the Church when their Leaders vnlesse they repented before death were lost And Saint Augustines Rule will be true That in all Corruptions of the Church there will euer be a difference betweene an Heretike and a plaine well-meaning man that is mis-led and beleeues an Heretike I pray you Marke this and so by Gods grace will I. For our Reckoning will bee