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A02913 Obiections: answered by way of dialogue wherein is proved by the Law of God: by the law of our land: and by his Maties many testimonies that no man ought to be persecuted for his religion, so he testifie his allegeance by the Oath, appointed by law. Helwys, Thomas, 1550?-1616?, attributed name. aut; Murton, John, attributed name. aut 1615 (1615) STC 13054; ESTC S117349 47,923 88

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and the Isralites now not of this world Ioh. 15.19 then the king thereof is not of this world as they are not of this world Ioh 17.16 ād if these spiritual lords cōfesse that Chr king now of the sand ād people of Israel but yet he hath left our lord the king h●s deputy to make such lawes and lords over the church as pleaseth him the word of the lord is against thē ●ere is but one ●ord 1. Cor. 12.5 one law giver Iam. 4.12 over his Church Nay his Ma himself is against thē who saith There is no earthly monarch ever the Church whose word must be a law saith further Christ is his Churches monarch the holy ghost his deputy alleging luk 22.25 the kings of the Gentiles beare rule one over another c. but I shal not be so among you saying further Christ then he ascended left not Peter with them to direct thē in al truth but promissed to send the holy ghost to them for that end c. If any wishe rebellions against the word of the lord herein yet let them not be rebellious against the word of the king Oh that any thinge would prevail with thē to make them leave of these cruel courses of persecuting poore soules that desire truely to feare God and are most faithful subjects to the king and desire also the salvatiō of the soules of these their cruel persecutors who do seeke their vtter vndoeing by al the forenamed persecutions onely because they cannot of faith offer vp such worship to God as these spirituall lords comaund and the rather let them leave of persecutinge seeing the kings Ma tie acknowledgeth It is a sure rule in divinitie that God loves not to plant his church by violēce bloodshed And if it be a law for al Christiās that in indifferent thinges one must not offēd another but the stronge but forbeare rather thē offēd his weake brother other wyse he wounds the weake conscience sinnes against Christ 1. Cor 8. Thē how much lesse hath any man power to be lord over the weake conscience forceing it to practice that it hath not faith in bringing it thereby vnto same and vnto condemnation Rom. 14. wee do vnfainedly acknowledg the authority of earthly Magistrats Gods blessed ordinance and that al earthly authority and comaund apperteynes vnto thē let them comaund what they will wee must obey either to do or suffer vpō paine of Gods displeasure besides their punishment But al men must let God alone with his right which is to be lord and law-giver to the soule ād not comaund obedience for God where he comaundeth none And this is onely that which wee dare not but maintaine vpō the peril of our soules which is greater then bodily afflictiō And onely for the maintenance of Christs right herein do false Prophets and deceivers who by that craft are clothed in fyne apparel and faire deliciously every day labor to make vs odious ī the ears ād eyes of Prince and people knoweing wel that if they had not power by persecution to force mē to dissemble to beleeve as they their kingdome and paine would soone come to nought the wickednes of which course is discovered in this writinge followeing For the manner being Dialogue-wise wee thought it the fittest in two respects First for the vnderstanding of the simple to whome especially Gods misteries apperteyne more then to the wise and prudent of the world Secondly because al the objections that wee have met with might be set downe and the playnelyer answered And because wee have faith and assurance that many wil see and acknowledg the vnlawfulnes of tyrānyzing over the consciēce vn persecuting the bodies of such as cannot be subject wee have also thought it meet to manifest the careful estate of such subjection that they may deliver their soules if they wil be saved and also have set downe the beginning of that old and good way that Iohn Baptist Christ Iesus ād his Apostles have left vnto al that wil be saved ●nto the end of the world Beseeching that Almighty worker that he would worke in the harts and consciences of men that they may enquire for it and that out of the scriptures and walke therein thē shal they find rest vnto their soules although afflictions to their bodies Oh 〈…〉 is time for the Lord to worke for they have destroyed his law and have set vp in many Nations such worship for God as best pleaseth thē that are in authority and have power to persecute the contrary mynded Let all Gods people cry How long Lord when wilt thou come to destroy Antychrists cruel Kingdome and establish Christs meeke and peaceable Kingdome as thou haist begun even come Lord Iesus by the Spirit of thy Moueth and the brighnes of thy coming even come quickely Amen By Christs vnworthy witnesses his Majesties faithful subjects Comonly but most falsly called Annabaptists Antichristian VVhy come you not to Church Christian What should I do there A. VVorship God C. I must worship God as he requireth ād not as any mortal man requireth A. True but the worship that wee require you to offer vp is the vvorship God requireth C. If it be so I wil withal willingnes assēt vnto it but my conscience must be satisfied there of by the word of truth that I may have faith in it other wise it is my grevious sai Rom. 14.23 For I may not beleeve it so to be because you affirme it A. VVell you must go to Church othervvise you are disobedient to the law vvil fall vnder punishment C. But still remember that you would have me worship God as you pretend therefore let vs agree what worship God requireth Christ saith Ioh 4.24 God is a spirit they that worship him must worship him in spirit truth Here wee see what worship God requireth viz That wee worship him with our soules and Spirits and also that we worship him according to the truth of his word And therefore for your booke worship If it were according to truth from the which it is as far as light is from darknes yet if I cannot offer it vp with my Spirit it is not acceptable to God but most abhominable A. Well you must come to Church C. I pray let aske you a question do you seeke the glory of God and the salvation of my soule herein or your owne obedience A. I seeke the glory of God and the salvation of your soule not my ovvne obedience C. Then manifest it no by words onely but by deeds and truth which if you do you will not threaten me punishmēt to cause me to come but with meekenes and patience satisfye my conscience by the word of truth for this is the duety of the Minist of Christ 2. Tim. 2.24 that I may come with a willing mynd so shall I be accepted 2. Cor. 8.12 Psal 110.3 For if by threatning me punishment as imprisonment banishment or death
whē the fulnes of the gentiles is come in the jewes shal be cōverted now if the jewes who are such fearefull blasphemers of Christ ād his gospel that contemne him and his Testamēt with al dispyte if their conversion must be waited for ād that they may not be destroyed from the face of the Earth then who may not see iff they shut not their eies that the conversion off all is to bee waited for and that no man for blaspheming Christ ād his gospel map be destroyed or afflicted by imprisonments death or any calamitie whatsoever I. It is not to be gain-saied with any shewe of truth I would God the Kings Ma tie would consider of this point seeing that the cruel Bbs by vseing his power commit such sin against God in this thinge both in persecuting thē that cannot of faith yeild and also in foreeing them that do yeild contrary to their consciences to sin against God and to perish if they repēt not C. I am perswaded that if his highnes did but once wel wey ād consider it he would never suffer such high iniquitie to be co●●i●ted against God contrary to his expresse comaundement ād all to bee done by ●he Kings power for nothing have they els to beare them out The Lord perswade the harts of his Ma tie and his posterity vnto it seeing his throne is established by him that he and his posterity may sit raigne over these Nations and Kingdoms till Iesus Christ the comaunder of these thinges come in his glorie to recompence every Man according to his workes without respect of persons A. If vvicked malefactors should bee let allone to the end of the vvorld then vvhere is the Magistrats svvorde it is of no force if evil men may not be cut of C. I acknowledg vnfainedly that God hath given to Magistrats a sword to cut of wicked mē and to reward the weldoers Rom. 13 chap. But this Ministery is a worldly Ministery their sword is a worldly sword their punishments can extend no further then the outward man they can but kil the bodie Luk. 12.4 And therefore this Ministery and sword is apointed onely to punish the breach of worldly ordināces which is al that God hath given to any mortal man to punish The King may make lawes for the safetie ād good of his person state and subjects against the which whosoever is disloyall or disobedient he may dispose of at his pleasure the Lord hath given him this sword and authoritie forseeing in his eternal wisedome that if this his ordinance of Magistracie were nor there would be no liveing for men in the world and especially for the Godly ād therefore the Godly have particular cause to glorifie God for this his blessed ordinance of Magistracie and to regard it with all reverence But now the breach of Christs lawes of the which wee all this while speake which is the thinge onely I stand vpon his Kingdome is spirituall his lawes spirituall the transgressions spirituall the punishment spirituall everlasting death of soule his sword spirituall no carnall or worldly weapon is given to the supportation of his kingdome nor to punish the transgressors of the lawes of this kingdome The law-giver himself hath comaunded that the transgressors of these lawes should be set alone vntil the harvest because he knowes they that are now tares may hereafter come to repētance and b●come wheat they that are now blasphemers persecutors oppressors as Paul was may by the power of Gods word become faithfull and a faithful witnes as he was They that are now fornicators etc. as some of the Corin once were 1 Cor. 6.9 may here after become washed clensed sanctified as they were they that are now to people nor vnder mercie as the Saints sometimes were 1. Pet. 2.10 may hereafter become the people of god obtaine mercie as they did all come not at the First houre some come not till the eleaventh houre if those that come not till the last houre should be destroyed because they come not at the first houre then should they never come but be prevented A. Were not blasphemers put to death in time of he lavv 1 evit 24.11 c. C. Yes an Isralite blasphemmy the Lord or doeing any thinge presumptiously which was blasphemy Num. 15.30 no sacrifice to bee offered for him but would you from hence have the kings Ma tie to put al his subjects to death that conteinne the truth of Christ If yea see what will followe All Papists ought to be put to death who are direct blasphemers Revel 16 10.11 VVhen the viall of Gods wrath was powred vpon the throne of the Beast which all England confesse is ment the Popish power they blasphemed the God of Heaven c. All the Iewes that speake many thinges blasphemously against Christ ought to be put to death Yea of what profession soever he bee doeing any thinge presumpteously against Christ ought to bee put to death by your affirmation no sacrifice to bee offered no repentance to be admitted dye he must vnder two or three witnesses but that this is most false Christ and his Appostles in his Testamēt doth manifestli declare as is before shewed was no Paul a blasphemer yet received to mercie But this the Holie Ghost teacheth from blasphemy vnder the law Heb. 10. He that dispyseth Moses Lawe dieth without mercie vnder two or three witnesses of how much sorer punishment suppose ye shall he bee worthy that treadeth vnder foote the Sonne of God counteth the blood off the Testament as an vnholy thinge wherewith he was sanctified doth dispite the Spirit of grace Speaking of such as had received acknowledged the truth vers 26. This is now the due proportion an Israelite according to the flesh in the time of the law presumpteously sinninge against Gods comaundemēt by his comaund must dye by the worldly sworde no sacrifice to be offered for him so in the new Testament or time of the gospel a spiritual Isralite according to the faith contempteously or dispitefully sinning against Christs commaund he hath former acknowledged dispi●eing and contemning them by his comaund must dye by the spirituall sword no repentance to be admitted seeing he crucifyeth againe to himself the sonne of God makes a mock of him Heb. 6.6 David and Peter came not within this compasse though they sinned off knowledg yet they did it not comtemteously or dispitefully but through frailtie If an Isralite vnder the Law did ought through ignorance as Num. 15. or through frailtie as Levit. 6. There was sacrifice for him so vnder the gospel an Isralit doeing ought through ignorāce or through frailtie as Peter and Barnabas with the rest of the Iewes mencioned Gal. 2. or the me●steous person 1. Cor. 5. There is repentance for him This is it that cōfounds al true religiō That be cause it was so in the time of the law therefore it may be so in the time of the gospell by