quod sit inductivum ad peccandum puta cum aliquis publice facit peccatum vell quod habet similitudinem peccati Aquin. 2. quest 43. Art 1. a. 4. this is an inducement to it And gives another occasion to fall And so much in effect writes Zanchy p Explic. in 1 Thes 5. 22. p. 419 Tom 6. on the place 5. This is not without appearance of evill and scandall because hereby men seeke to uphold such wayes and inventions in divine worship as the Lord of old hath ordained to destruction q ler 51. 26 2 The. 2 8. Rev. 18. Merdecah would not give countenance nor reverence to one of that Nation r Brent Comment in Hest c. 3 v 2. whose name God had appointed to be blotted out under Heaven Wherfore did the Lord give so straight a charge unto Israel to breake downe Altars s Deu. 7 5. groues high-places c. Vt ex eo intelligamus because saith Junius t Anal. in Deu. 12 p. 71. by this we should understand that they were not to retaine any thing that concerneth either the substance or shew of Idolatrie Calvine u Comment in Esa 27 9. speakes the very same So detestable is idolatrie before God Vt eius memoriam vult penitus deleri ne posthà c ullum eius vestigium appareat That he will have the very memorie of it utterly to bee abolished least any footstept thereof should appeare afterward Iacob abolished out of his House not only the idols but the ear-ings Gen. 35. 4. because they were superstitionis insignia Monuments of superstition As Calvin y Comment in Gen. 35 4. Monilia Idolis consecrata Iewels consecrated to idols As Pareus a ibid. Res idolatriae pertinentes Things appertaining to idolatrie as Iunius b ibid. To be short would not God have the Iewes under the law to countenance any humaine devise whether Ministerie c Numb 8 22. 24. Numb 4. 24 31. 1847 Ministration Altar Sacrifice Sacraments either by word d Psa 16. Hos 2 16 16 17. writing presence assembling together e Deu. 16 1 6 1 King 12 32. observing the time comming to the place bowing downe f Deu. 5 9. Ps 95 6. Hos 13. 2. Eze. 18 6. Neh 10 32. 37. Ex. 30 16. Eze. 5 c. kneeling lifting up the eyes paying of tithes g Offerings Contributions c. And shall wee thinke that all these outward obseruances are novv out of use and that men in such respects may publickly countenance the vvayes of Antichrist As for such as so thinke let them knovv they are in errour and sinne And as the Papists have condemned Montanus for an Heretick and yet raetine among them his vile opinions So doe these men embrace the lies and beastly vanities of H. N. that monstrous Monster although in words they will disclaime all Familisme ‡ As cats loue not the Master of the hous but his housholds-goods so many say they can̄ot abide the Pope yet loue his houshold stuffe to well Consider what I say and the Lord give you understanding For the instance vvhich hee brings of hyring a House in a Parish it is discrepant and impertinent and so of no validitie For let Barnards g Consirat Eugen l. 3. usefull Canon be observed an liceat an deceat an expediat vvee shall soon see there is no agreement betvveen it and the thing he applies it to For first the Law of God alloweth us to live where wicked men doe and to have necessarie society with them in civill things And thus the godly in all ages have practised But let them shew us where it is written that we must goe unto their unlawfull-Church-meetings and there worship God with them and among them I aske againe who of the Saints hath done this The Lord h ler. 15. 19. sayth Let them returne to thee but returne not thou unto them 2. It is seemely that we dwell among them and reciprocally give and take earthly helpes each of other * Compossessores mūdi non erroris Wee must be cò partners with them in the world but not in their errours saith Tertulliā But in Religion we may not use any of their devises as meanes and furtherances of our edification Elias was carefull to repaire the Lords Altar For as Martyr i In his Comment on the place saith he judged it an unbefitting thing and a great indignitie to God and his truth to Offer Sacrifice on Baals Altar If men in those dayes had the Zeale of that good Prophet they would scorne and loath to make use of any thing that is Antichrists I say it againe vvere men zealous for the Lord God of Hosts they would feare to runne to false Churches and Ministers to be edified Is it not because there is not a God in Israel that ye goe 3. This also is behovefull and expedient as the Apostle k 1 Cor. 5. 10. saith But the other is not so as we have before proved For Conclusion wheresoever I live my constant absence from their Church is an evident token that I have left them But on the contrarie if I goe thither to worship this gives them just cause to thinke that I approve of their unsanctified standing Whosoever therefore can make these two things hang together I must needs say quid libet equolibet of every thing hee can make any thing But of this no more now let us hearken to what followes SECT 10. THe next Objection is thus layd dovvne None can heare without a Preacher None can preach except he be sent Rom. 10. 14. 15. Therefore I cannot Lawfully heare him that hath not a Lawfull sending His answer to it is Treat 1. That Conclusion is neither in the Text nor sound 2. I may Lawfully heare him that hath no Lawfull calling as I have formerly shewed 3. The sending there intended is Gods gracious worke of providence in raysing up men by enabling and disposing them to preach c. 4. If faith came by the preaching of unlawfull Ministers it followes thereupon that such Preachers are sent in the Apostles sence This is the summe of his ansvver Answ It was a cunning trick which Themostocles was once taught by a man of Lacedemonia that because they might not take the Tables away wherein a Law was engraven He should therefore turne them up-side downe which was as good as to take them away altogether Howsoever the Treat takes not from us the Tables of holie Scriptures wherein is written the Law of Christs Ministers yet by a prittie devise hee turnes them here upside downe Which is as good as to take them quite away J know what J speake and will stand to it For if this place Rom. 10 14 15. respects not a true outward calling but is to be understood promiscuously of all Ministers be their calling never so false divilish Antichristian I say if this Text be so to be
c. I see nothing in it wherefore he should desire the reader to take knowledge of it For as for riches credit of the World and outward peace here instanced as they are good things in themselves so they may be desired and in a right way and course Lawfully sought after For the other namelie Hearing of the Word obedience to the Magistrate c. In these things too we must keepe our selves within the limits and bounds which God hath set us For his phrase of streaning and gooing as neere the Winde as may be J hope he meant no streaning of a good conscience If he did not then his counsell is of no use at all except it could be proued that the Lord requires his people to heare in the way and manner hee pleads for a worke ab Asino lanam not possibly to be done As there are some scrupulous in things amisse touching outward Ordinances and yet faultie otherwayes So I beleeve there are many not scrupulous in things amisse touching outward ordinances and yet in their course of life base and scandalous enought But what of this must not Gods House and Ordinances be deare to our soules because some mens conversation is not according to their profession God forbid For in the holiest Society upon Earth it is possible that there should be wicked persons When there was but 4 in the World one was a Kaan when 8. onely in the Arke one was a Cham Among the 12. one a Iudas The purest Wheate hath some chaffe with it The fairest garden some weeds in it Therefore let no man forbeare to practice any knowne truth for other mens lewd lives onely let them be carefull to doe well themselves Mourne for such as doe otherwise and seeke by all due and lawfull meanes their Amendment And this is the burden and no other which the Lord layes upon them The last sort he divides into 5 rankes at which he either girds or right-out chargeth with Hypocrisie partialitie pride ignorance mallace and the like It is said of Tamberlane * Richard Knowles in the life of Baiazee that he raised warre against Baiazet the fourth King of the Turkes because he refused to receive certaine strange Garments which he sent unto him I beleeve had these men embraced the Treatisers opinion in this point of Hearing they should not have heard him speake so bitterly against them But to the particulars Some are carried with so excessive admiration of some former guides in their course Treat as they thinke is halfe Heresy to call into question any of their determinations or practises Answ Howsoever we must live by our owne faith notwithstanding we are not lightly to esteeme of the determinations and practises of our guides specially when we know they are no reeds but men stable and unchangeable in the truth He is a foolish traviler that will leave the way which he hath long kept unlesse he be sure he is out There is as Polanus h CoÌ„ment in Ezech. cap. 20. pag. 487. saith a laudable imitation of Elders That is so farre to follow them as they are followers of Christ 2. J know none more faulty this way then such as have learned of him to heare unlawfull Ministers For were not these men superstitiously addicted to his new devise they would beware how to reject as they doe the unanimous judgement and practice of all Learned Men and true Churches and follow the blinde trodd of his single opinion Such as lay downe rules to finde out the truth by write thus What the Fathers i Quid-quid omnes pariter uno codemque consensu c. Vincent Lirenens cont prophanos haeret c. 4. all with one consent have held and written is a necessary token to know the truth by Againe k D. Feild of the church l. 3. c. 43 p. 175 Whatsoever hath beene holden at all times and in all places by all Christians that hath not beene noted for novelty singularity and division is to be received as the undoubted truth of God If these Assertions be true the Treatisers then is untrue For not onely are all old Writers against it but the most Learned of later times Yea and let it be minded all Sects and sorts of people professing Christianitie abhorre it J except onely Familists For they and he â—â—dem in ludâ— docti are for the pleading and practice here much alike Some againe are much addicted to themselves as the former to others Treat Conceiving in effect though they will not professe it the same of their Heads which the Papists doe of their Head the Pope that they cannot erre or be deceived And this specially in such matters us for which they have suffered trouble and affliction formerly Answ 1. Wee are all more ready to blame faults in others then to see our owne and amend them Had not the Treatiser thought to well of himselfe I doubt whether he would so lightly have singled himselfe out and become as it were every mans opposite Humble minds are affraid to meddle with novelties but such as seeke humane praise imagine they cannot enought be observed unlesse out of the dreggs of Sophistry they raise some strange quiddities whereby to crosse truths generally received 2. That any man should love and like a thing because it leads to persecution That J cannot thinke But this J thinke There are some which doe professe practice many things and namelie this of Hearing on no better ground or reason but hereby to keep themselves out of troubles There is also a third sort who bend their force rather to the weakning of other men in their courses Treat then to the building up of themselves in their owne halfe imagining that they draw neere enought to God if they can withdraw enought from other men Answ I cannot devise for what end the Treat * Aliquid latet quod non patet should seeke thus to discover other mens nakednes except it be he thought that the more vile and contemptible he made his Opposites appeare in the Readers eye the easier he would be won to embrace this his opinion of Hearing Antichristian Ministers a prittie trick Much like that Lesson of the Cannon Lavv Si non caste tamen cause But such shifts profit not for a godly minde will search and looke into the cause it selfe and not on the persons either for or against it To oppose a bad course is meet and lawfull and should we be silent when we are called to testifie against it we should make our selves hereby open transgressours Touching the building up of our selves This as Iude †Ver. 20. teacheth must be in our most holy faith He that rayseth up a House with rotten stuffe * What is there else in Babilon will loose his cost and labour by it I know not what withdrawing he meanes from other men if he intend a withdravving from the Hearing of false Ministers then I answer they doe
well that doe it For if the Temple made with hands defiled through idolatrie was odious unto God how much more will he loth our Spirituall Temples not made with hands if we suffer them to be polluted with filthy superstition But so absolutely we shall doe if we doe the thing which the Treat here contends for A good man saith Ambrose m Lib 5. Epist 30. will be earnest and Zealous against idolatry Another saith n Bradshavv on 2 Thes 2 p. 130. The better a man is the more carefull will he be to withdraw himselfe from it These witnesses are true Fourthly there are some to be found so sowred with modines and discontentment Treat as they become unsociable If they see nothing lamentable they are ready to lament If they reade any Bookes they are onely invectives specially against publicke Saâ—es and Governours Ansvv 1. As to be unsociable is inhumaine and brutish so to be carelesse with whome we joyne in communion is sinfull and vicious A traviler were better goe alone then have one in his company that should rob him and cut his throat 2. This is not an age which wants cause of just lamentation considering not onely the evils without but what perverse things are brought into the Churches of God whereby poore people are dayly deceived 3. That we should looke into publicke States and Governours there is reason for it and specially if the same be Ecclesiasticall for else how can we walke as men of knowledge and hold fast onely that which is good Lastly Treat some thinke to cover their owne both grosser and more proper and personall corruptions under a furious march not onely against the faylings but the persons also failing of infirmity in matter of Church-order and Ordinances Ansvv I suppose by Church-ordinances and Order he meanes the Ministerie Worship and Government under Antichrist Now that some of ignorance submit to these things there is nothing more certaine notwithstanding this gives not allowance to others others knowing better to doe so too If there failing be of infirmity there is the more hope of their reformation I meane when they shall heare the truth taught and see the Teachers walke closely in it In conclusion the Treat pleas the Rhetorician and makes a shew as if he could say more but he will spare his opposites Ansvv As for his minsing figure of extenuation to let much passe I like it not For he doth here no otherwise then if a Theese when he hath stript a man out of all that he hath would faine yet be counted mercifull in that he doth not murder him or bind him as some others have done Let any indifferent man read his writing and he will say the Treat hath not spared his opposites but short at them arrowes of bitter words and made them as odious and vile as a man can doe But blessed is he that is not offended at the truth for such things SECT 2. THE Objections undertaken to be answered by the Treatiser are as he layes them downe of two sorts Some of them are framed upon supposition that the Ministers in that Church are in themselves Lawfull and of God But yet not to be heard by reason of the abuses evils to be found in their administrations Others with-draw herein and those the more upon the contrarie supposition to wit that the very order and constitution of that Church and Ministery is papall and unlawfull Ansvv For the first I have nothing to say to it It beeing a point beside our present dispute Againe for my part I am of his minde in the thing that is to use his owne expression Supposing a Church and the Ministerie thereof essentially lawfull it cannot but be lawfull for the members of other Churches in generall union and association with it to communicate therewith in things lawfull and lawfully done seeing the end of union is communion God hath in vaine united persons and states together But he who would have us receave the weake in faith whom God hath receaved would not have us refuse the fallowship of Churches in that which is good for any weaknes in them of one sort or other And this we have so plainly and plentifully commended unto us both by the Prophets yea by Christ himselfe in the Iewish Church and Apostles and Apostolicall men in the first Christian Churches In which many errours and evils of all kindes were more then manifest and the same ofttimes both so farre spread and deeply rooted as the reforming of them was rather to be wished then hoped for as that no place is left for doubting in that case by any who desire to follow their holy steps in faith towards God and charitie towards men and effectuall desire of their owne edification What he here writes is surely true for the Scriptures approve not of rending away from true Churches for any corruption I use the word any because so long as we acknowledge the Church to be true whatsoever her sinnes are a separation from all communion with it is utterly unlawfull Our godly Predicessours had in them the zeale of God and love of his truth * Two things I would know of these meÌ„ 1. Whether they thinke not that the primitive Christians were as zealous and sincere as themselves 2. Whether they thinke not that the Churches from vvhome they separate have as fevv if not fevver corruptions then such Churches had in vvhich the Apostles and other godly people dayly communicated But how shewed they it Not by forsaking their Brethren for offences but in witnessing against them and seeking their reformation But now ah that I could not say it some men know not how their zeale like Iehues may be seene of men unlesse they make publick Schismes in Churches and this many times not for any sinne that they can justly prove the Church to be in but upon discontentment and because they cannot have their way and will But of this no more now For I purpose if God spare my life to set forth a Treatise touching this very point The Treatiser in pag. 23 Treat would have us consider distinctly of Religious actions according to the severall Rankes in which they may rightly orderly be sett And how we should conceive of them a little after he tels us thus Some such actions are Religious only as they are performed by Religious persons And of this sort is Hearing and so Reading of Gods Word The Scriptures teach and all confesse that Hearing of the Word of God goes before Faith for Faith comes by Hearing as by an outward meanes Hearing then beeing before Faith and Faith before all other acts of Religion inward or outward it must needs follow that Hearing is not simply or of it selfe a worke of Religion and so not of Religious Communion Answ That the Reader may the better perceive how greatly the Treat was deceived in this matter of Hearing as to thinke it not to be of Religious Communion