669. for the priuate masse fol. 675. for an halfe communion Dureus resp Whitak rat 6. fol. 301. Ex Euseb eccles hist lib. 6. c. 44 in Greeke 36. in Latine and 43. in English Eckius enchir loc comm c. 15 fol. 156. If the Communion that is a companie receiueing together bee in that respect better then the priuate masse as M Harding himselfe saith where the Priest receaueth all the people gazing on and receaueing nothing which is the point which M Iewell blamed and the priuate masse be but a matter of small waight and a fact the Priests negligence causing the peoples slacknesse For shame leaue of to write in defence of it as also to make that a true Communion spiritual receauing whē the People stand by receaue nothing as both D. Harding M. Dormā doe Corporally the Preist spiritually the people saith he Then say I the people that receiue spiritually receiue the better for to receiue the flesh and bloud of Christ corporally they assigne to the wicked and reprobate such as Iudas spiritually they assigne only to the elect and godly But how are both these articles of private masse and halfe communion proued against B. Iuell and vs by one example of what a silly boy did giue to a sicke mā at his house in a case of necessity The boy because the Priest was sicke brought from him a little of the sacrament and gaue it the old man Do not these men lacke the practise of the Church for their warrant that wil obtrude such examples The story is to be read in Eusebius in Greeke Latine and English and therfore there can be no mystery in it except men desire to be abused What saith Eckius touching praier vnto Saints departed which doctrine is of great moment in the church of Rome Explicitè non est praecepta sanctorum invocatio in sacris literis The invocation of Saints departed is not expressed in the holy scriptures This inuocatiō of Saints cannot be proued net her by the old Testamēt nor by the newe Not in the old Testament saith he for the Iews were prone to Idololatry and vnder the Gospel it was not commanded least the Gētiles that were converted and beleeued should thinke they should bee brought againe to the worship of Earthly Gods Further saith he if the Apostles Evangelists had taught the Saints had bin to haue bin worshipped it would haue argued great arrogancy in thē as if they had sought renowne after death therfore the Apostles would not by the expresse scripture teach the calling vpon Saints Thus far Eckius Sessio 25. de inuocat The counsel of Trent doth not foūd it in the scriptures but bringeth it in by the window an other way by custome consent of Fathers which they do but pretend neither because they would not let go al their hold at once Saunders reakoneth this amongst other things to be the words of God De visib monarc l. 1. fol 12 Hoker Ecclespoll 1. par 13. The benefit of hauing diuines lawes written not his word written but his worde vnwritten If we in this age of the world be to trust to an vnwritten word I demaund to whom that was deliuered to be kept and preserued In the first age of the world as God gaue Laws to our Fathers without writing so hee gaue them memories which serued in steede of books the defects of that kinde of teaching being knowne vnto him he relieued it by often iterating of one thing by putting thē in minde of onething often After this grew the vse of writing as meanes more durable to preserue the laws of God from oblivion and corruption as the liues of men grew the more to be shortned therfore is Moses said to write al the words of God and vnto the Evangelist S. Iohn expresse Charge is giuen Scribe Exod. 24 4. Apoc. 1.11 14.13 Ioh. 20.30.31 write these things Againe Many other signes also did Iesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this booke but these things are written that yee might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ that Son of God So that if now after so much writing the ceasing of God to speake to the worlde but by writing we shal divert from his written worde to his vnwritten it wil be to turne the truth of God into a lie and to follow fables in steed of truth If this part of the doctrine of the Church of Rome in praying to Saints be without al warrāt of holy scripture as Eckius and Saunders do allow how much to blame are they Dureus Conf. Whi rat 1. f. 44 Cope dial 3. fol. 332. to the same purpose who would drawe a prescript rule from Christs owne words on the crosse when he cried Eli Eli My God my God why hast thou forsaken me saying that it was familiar to the faithful Iews to pray vnto Saints because they thought that Christ had called on Elias Is it not a miserable glosse that eateth out the bowels of the text If it were an vsual thing with the Iews to pray vnto Saints how said Eckius that the Iewes had it not in vse because they were prone to idololatry and to whom should they pray The fathers of the old testament saith he also were in Limbo in hel The Iews that said Christ called on Elias did deride mocke him so do the Papists abuse vs Matth. 27.47 that alleadge the holy scriptures to such purposes But into how many shapes wil they turne this one parcel of scripture and make it serue more waies thā one Saunders alleadgeth it for the service in an vnknowne tongue because the Iews seemed to mistake Christ De visib mon. l. 7. fo 679. for the seruice in an vnknowne tongue How neere that speech of Christ on the crosse commeth either in favour of praying to Saints or to the service in an vnknown tongue I wil not sticke even now to make themselues iudges The Doctrine of pardons hath brought no smal treasure to the church of Rome yet Alphonsus Alphons a Castro l. 8. verb. indulg Pardōs haue no ground either in antiquity or in the scriptures Polid. Virg. de invent rerum li. 8. c. 1. f. 614. reverēceth it but for new Against the error of denying pardons saith he I wil contend in few words because amongst al the things whereof we dispute in this work there is none that the holy scriptures haue lesse mentioned then pardons and wherof the ancient writers haue lesse spoken This report of Alphonsus doth Polidore Virgill confirme out of Fisher who was bishop of Rochester in these words No Divine doth at al doubt saith he whether there be purgatory but yet among the ancient fathers there is no mention at al of it or very seldome yea euen the Greekes to this day beleeue it not for so long as there was no care for purgatory nemo quaesivit indulgentias no
pleased God to reserue two of the strōgest in out liuing their first labours more thā 20. years the most learned and iudicious Bishop of Winton D. Reynolds the one for his dialogues against the Iesuits the other for his conference with Hart wherein they see their desire on their enimies no aduersary daring to propound against either of them Who doth not thinke the memory of D. Humfrey is yet fresh and laudable in the highest degree for his answere to Campians chalenge for elegancy of stile exactnesse of method and substance of matter without all cast of the dice as Lactantius said by St. Cyprian D. VVillet hath bin very painefull as his Synopsis and Tetrastilon doe plainely shew The venerable Deane of Exeter D. Sutcliue may not in this page of praise be omitted for answering aswel the most learned amōg the aduersaries as those that haue the most dissolute tongues Bellarmine and Gifford It woulde be too long to reakon all therfore I cōtent my selfe with picking out the choise It shal alwaies be my praiers vnto Almighty God that whensoeuer it shall please him to call these or any of these to him selfe out of this wearisome life there may others arise in your places to goe on with the cause as the Poet speaketh of the Golden bough primo avulso non deficit alter Aeneid lib 6. one being taken away there wanteth not an other and so giue the aduersarie not so much as a breathing time And when you of the Cleargie and Schollers haue thus discharged their duties to God the Prince what rests for the Laity to doe but to take vp and read and hauing read as the men of Baerea in the Acts to compare both sides with the scripture then resolue to iustifie the truth in all sinceritie Act. 17. And to you I say this againe the clearnesse and perspicuitie of your writings hath added such a plainenes to my vnderstanding to the finding out of the truth that if I should not absolutely averre that the doctrine this day taught and professed in this Realme were the true and sincere doctrine of Christ and of his Church I should surely sin against mine owne conscience the contrarie of the Church of Rome beeing only built on the rubbish of contradictions impieties gloses slights falsifications and forgeries as by the samplar which I haue drawne out of their bookes for that purpose wil manifestly appeare I say not to you who are mighty in knowledge that way already but to euerie meane reader for whose sakes only I vndertooke this labour Ignoscant scientes ne offēdātur nescientes satius est offerre habēti quà m differre non habentē Aug. de bapt contra Donat. lib. 2. cap. 1. The Lord Iehova continue the Kings Maiestie in his holie intention of furthering and fauouring the doctrine established and blesse prosper the Reuerend Bishops and Cleargy to be watchfull against the common adversarie the Papist And to giue the rest of the Kingdome sound resolutiō to ioine strongly togither to the discountenauncing of Antichrist and all his designes From Tydworth the 1. of Nouember 1607. Yours in all duty and reverence John Panke TO AL OBSTINATE AND STIFFE Recusants held in wilfull blindnesse and to all luke-warme indifferent Papists not yet fully setled in their Recusancy health of body and soundnesse of iudgment I That hitherto bin your courses poore seduced Bretheren by the charge that your Masters haue laid on you to refuse all manner of conference with vs or to read any of our treatises or books that do any way tend to the crossing of your opinions which purpose as it taketh away all sounde iudgement which may anie way come vnto you so it hath given me for my part a ful a resolute determination never to beleeue but that by that policy they only would vphold the drift of their religion that they feare it woulde fal if it shoulde come to trial To meete with this mischiefe on your part I haue taken a labor not vsual to win you if it be possible to reading I haue laide almost forty of your owne writers togither some our owne countrymen here at home others the best of your side that ever wrot The Catologue of their names and editions of their books that so you be not deceiued I haue noted vnto you in the next pages following I haue compared them in three of the principal questions betweene you and vs. The sacrifice of your Masse Reall presence or transubstantiation and Popes supremacy and do protest I never did nor yet do thinke any man living is able to take those authors and proue any of those points by them or can draw out a plaine and simple forme of speech how they would bee vnderstoode in any of those questions I am not ignorant neither do I make your teachers so simple but you and they can say This they belieue in grosse 1 you offer vp the sonne of God to his father and that is your Masse 2 you haue him really present and so you eate him and that is your sacrament And 3 that the Pope is Christs Vicar and that is your beliefe All this I beleeue you can say but this is not that which you ought to seeke at your teachers hands For come to explane what agreement your Masse hath with that which Christ did at his last supper the night before he suffered And what that was which he did at his last supper and what the morrow on the crosse And what your Masse is to either or both When we aske discourse vpon this here they stagger and turne like madde men as though it did belong to them only to affirme what they lusted and yeeld no account of what they say or indeed as though they knew not what to say Harding What wordes are there and what termes are not there Stapleton Not as vpon the Crosse explane and proue How is it vnbloudy The Rhemists say that the same bloud that Christ shed on the Crosse is in the chalice at Masse Dureus saith the sacrifice of the Masse is not without bloud in it but is offered with out shedding of bloud Cōt Whit. rat 4. fol 183. what shoulde the bloud do ther if it be not shed How the Pope claimeth his supremacy is doubted of amongst them Being demanded where be the words of scripture by which the Priest hath power to offer vp Christ to God his father they answere there be words that set forth an obligation in act and deede but no termes expressed a solution to a question much like the direction givē by a Miller to a passenger who bid him leaue the bottome and ride the lower way betweene the two hils What difference is there betweene word and tearms Can any man distinguish The Church offereth a daily sacrifice not as vpon the crosse but the selfesame thing that was offered on the crosse The thing offered is one selfe same sacrifice but in
even vvith the same vvorship that the trinitie should be worshiped vvith The learned amongst them knowe that this vvhich I saie is true Leaue I beseech you your old and vvorneout excuses which hetherto some of you haue bin accustomed to make in defence of the religion you are in liking with which are so did wee learne so did our ancients teach they were wise enough they knewe what they did and what was best and so spoile your selues of iudgment and banish reason only to rest on other mens errors But if you wil needs go to Fathers ancients go to theÌ„ of 1500. 1400. 1300. 1200. 1000. yeares since not to theÌ„ which lived in the Tyranny of ignorance for 400. 300. or 200. yeares ago wheÌ„ Sathan had covered the greatest Monarkies in darknes and ignorance some few sparkles here and there arising being with the fogge mist that then spread it selfe soone put out Policy is the best point that their religioÌ„ ever thriued by That this is true I wil lay a briefe of the method which your masters vse and you know is true in propagating their religion First they take away al vse of reading the holy scriptures from the Laity whom they teach instruct Next they barre them from al conference or society with any of whom they might learne to vnderstand what they are taught whether agreeable to Gods word or not 2 They take from them al the Protestants books 3 and damne them to the pit of hel not suffering them to read one of them I demand how far either a Turke or Iew or any other miscreant might preuaile against any poore seduced soule that is in their custody if they take them time enough with these meanes Those they vse touching the Ignoraunt for their schollers they haue other First they shall haue the ancient Fathers Doctors as they wil please to deliver them 4 by written notes of their owne gathering 5 if they chance to admit them to the prints they shal then haue such prints as they haue newly set for the purpose the ancient copies being altered Then they haue a devise to shew them counterfait writings of the Fathers and Doctors such as they never wrote insteed of true and therefore learned and vnlearned 6 scholler or not scholler had need take heed to them in that And wheÌ„ they are hardly pursued out comes the Index expurgatorius in maÌ„ner of a note booke to tell the younger sort when wherein they shall refuse any author that maketh against the doctrine of the church of Rome 7 And adde vnto this practise such an opinion as this This is related more at larg in the booke it selfe where speciall mention is made of it The Church of Rome cannot erre whatsoever it decree and the Pope of Rome is not to be accused whatsoever be doth And thus they seduce both one sort and other If ever there were slauery or tyranny this is it the captivitie of the soule being ten thousand times more greate more grievous than that of the body God hath called you vnto liberty not to be servants of sin 8 but to serue erroneous opinions is worse than to beare tyrannous exactions 9 Take froÌ„ them these weapons where with they chiefly fight Gal. 5. 1. Coâ—inth 7. Iudg. 15. and you shal haue them as Sampson without his haire you may take them and chaine them where you list Pardon me I desire you if I be large the earnestnesse of my minde towards you hath caused it because I see the waies that deceiue you where the apprehension of the minde is great words to opeÌ„ it wil be many vincil officium linguae sceleris magnitude Their practises against the truth passe the quicknesse of my pen to describe and therfore every warning should worke some warinesse Touching my person it skilleth not in this who I am I hope you wil consider what is spoken Hoker pref to his 5. booke of Eccles polic Quaeso à vobis vt eadem oratio aequa aeque vale at I'anormitanus Laur. Humfr. cont Camp ratio p. 2. fol. 381 456. spiritus sanctus non alligatur ordini vel gradui vel â—athredae c. Quare nec ex munero homi num nec ex personarum celsitate fed ex causae veritate omnia sunt aestimaÌ„da Act. 20 The cheife that haue written in the controuer sies a litle before Queene Elis raigne ever since and not who it is that speaketh but let the same reason prevaile whether from a young man or an old whether from a clerke or a lay man There was a great man of your Church that once saide There was more heed to be given to a lay man bringing scripture than to the Pope and generall counsell And as great a man amongst vs hath said The holy Ghost is not tyed to any Order degree or chaire but bloweth where he will neither as S. Ierome saith we must not iudge as Pithogoras schollers according to what the teacher shall say but the strength of that which is taught by whomsoever must be waighed If the truth in these cases had bin to be sought for at the hands of any sort of meÌ„ Popes or Cardinals or touching the place Rome Paris or Rhemes or any other seat I am well assured S. Paule when he tooke his leaue from those of Ephesus would not haue omitted to haue named any man or place to haue resorted vnto he only said thus Now bretheren I commend you to God vnto the word of his grace which is able to build further and to giue you an inheritance amongst all them that are sanctified To draw to an end Because you shal as plainly see that I can direct you where you shal finde the true religion taught and mainetained according to the holy scriptures of God as wel as I haue noted vnto you the false boulstred out take into your hands those two treatises of D. Cranmers of the Sacrament Bishop Hoopers and Bishop Ridlies of the same argument Bishop Iuels Reply defence of the Apology against Harding D. Nowell against Dorman D. Fulkes answere to the Rhemists testament D. Humphrey against Campian D. Whitakers against Campian and Dureus Willets Synopsis and Tetrastilon D. Reinolds confetence with Hart and against Bellarmine and defence of his theses D. Sutcline against Bellarmine ofteÌ„ My Lord of Winchesters Dialogues against the Iesuits D. Abbot against Hil or any other treatises of these against your side you shal see the truth of Gods holy worde in seuerall parts discussed in so wonderfull an harmony that though some of them liue now and some be gone they speak al one language they all pronounce Shibboleth plainly Iud. 12.6 it being but one truth which they speake In their volumes and writings be many and insinite quotations both of scriptures fathers Doctors Councels histories laws decrees both Greeke and Latine pervse them view them single them out in
leife in that sacrament Rom. Why what perceaued they by my wordes of that sacrament Tub. They take you to hold not Catholiklie of it neither as our Lord and sauiour jesus Christ did first institute it nor as the ancient times of 1500 yeares by Fathers counsels and Doctors did and therfore they wished mee to make a stand and pause before I ioined with you therin For you teach that they who receaue it at your hands receaue only a peece of bread One of Hardings slanders and a draught of wine not worth anie thing and so call it a sacrament of the Lords institution wheras he gaue his bodie his reall substantiall bodie so his disciples did eate him reallie and substantiallie and dranke his verie blood and to beleiue this is healthful holy religious and they that receaue it so receaue it as Christ instituted it and they who doe otherwise Rhem. I. Cor. 11. fol. 453. in fine paginae Magnus nuga tor magno co natu magnas nobis nugas parit receaue noe sacrament but prophane bread as they called it This they did saie of you then touching the difference betweene them and you in that question and that in all other things al antiquitie consent of al ages were for them nothing for you Rom I doubt not but they are verie bitterly eloquēt against vs when opportunitie is offered of a fit audience their tongues pens are miserablie valiant But me thinketh Tuberius you are remember that both Christ himselfe al ages and all Doctors counsells doe make for them against vs ordinary abilitie cannot comprehend this in so short time much like vnto a sillie gentlewoman with whom of late I talked also who being not aboue one quarter of a yeare from her freinds returned home with arguments as strong as yours in defence of her new obtained religion shee could talke what a good booke the Rhemists bible was she could saie the Scriptures were written in Greeke and Latine For the Rhemists testamēt For Hebrew Greeke I saie not that they did teach her so simply but simply she remēbred what they said Laur. Vaux bachelot of divinity in his catechisme ca. 3. taketh awaye the 2 commādemēt of grauen images insted of that teacheth them Greeke Written in latin by Gasper Loarte doctor of divinitie translate dinto english fol. 76. would haue vs beleiue contrary to that which the gospel expresseth and therfore people shold praie in latine naie she could distinguish betweene an Idoll and an Image obseruing that the second commandement was onlie directed against Grauen Idolls as she tearmed them and not against Grauen Images And yet nether before shee went nor now can she read english to such a method vvas she brought to too quickly to knowe what she said I doubt not but she had bin so instructed but not by M. Vaux for he to make sure worke hath taken that commandement wholy out of his catechisme as remouing a block as belike stādeth not in their waie which noe wise man will euer bestowe anie labour about recompencing his breuitie in that point in telling the vse of certaine Greeke words Latria Hyperdulia Dulia where a learner is taught to worshipp anie creature in heauen or earth and commit as he thinketh noe I dolatry but noe otherwise then if a grand theife should teach a puny to steale by precept and when hee had committed the fact that is had stolen in deed saie it were not the deed and so leaue him to the gallowes Or if it had bin her luck to haue bin schooled by him that composed the instructiōs and advertisements how to meditate the misteries of the Rosary hee would haue taught her a more compendious waie to haue defended it by or anie other point then by a distinction which is although the commandement forbid vs the worshipping of anie Image yet wel for our parts maie beleiue and doe otherwise For so hee saith plainlie in an other question though not of that waight yet of that clearnes where speaking al in honor of our blessed Virgin Mary doth not sticke to sale that our Lorde redeemer did presentlie after hee was risen vp visit his most holie mother vvhom we maie vvel beleiue to haue bin the first albeit in the Gospel there be noe mentiō made therof For saith he if as the Evangelist reporteth our Lord did Luc. 24. after he was risen vp appeare to S. Peter that had earst denied him whie should not wee beleiue that hee appeared first to his blessed mother that neuer denied him Here is a plaine lesson a graunt that the Scripture teacheth so and so yet vvee maie beleiue otherwise Thus as their affections lead them either to the things or persōs wherof they speak so doe they in their conceipts bend the course of their arguments Other amongst them ad those of the greatest doe referre this appearing of our Lord to Saint Peter De rom pont lib. 1. c. 20. fine for S. Peter aboue al the disciples reckoning it amongst his prerogatiues as Bellarmine whoe affirmeth that Christ rising appeared to S. Peter first of al his disciples confirming it by S. Lukes Gospel and the witnesse of S Ambrose who saith that of the men Christ appeared to Peter for before saith he Christ had appeared to Mary Magdalene and that he further confirmeth out of S. Paule howe that Christ rising the third daie was seene of Cephas and then of the Eleuen 1. Cor. 15. Abdias Apost hist l. 6. fol. 188. Hard. cont Iuell art 1. fo 25. Ei primum omnium vt Mariae Magdalenae Petro apparere voluit Reyn. confer with Hart c. 8. diu 2. Sutc. cont Bel. de rom pont l. 2. c. 6. Rhem. Marc. 16. v. 1. Mat. c. 28.1 afterward of more then 500. brethren and after to S Iames. On the other side Abdias described to be an ancient writer first Bishop of Babylō who was the Apostles scholler and saw our sauiour in flesh and was present at the passion and martirdome of S. Andrewe and S. Mathewe speaking in the honor of S. Iames doth saie that our Lord woulde appeare to him first of all as he did to Mary Magdalene and to Peter vvhich indignitie of these men against the Gospel graclesse exposing it vnto the worlde as vertue is not only taxed by our learned writers as being dealt iniuriously withal but their owne Rhemists both confesse according to the truth of the text that Christ appeared to Mary Magdalene Mary of Iames Salome called by S. Mathew the other Mary and acknowledge it by their note That she first before al other they next saw him after his resurrectiō But the Rhemists seeing the Scripture hath giuē this prerogatiue of appearing from Peter to the woemen will stretch hard but euen touching that some what in it shal be his prerogatiue for when the weomen are bidden to telis to the Disciples to Peter they
say Peter is named in speciall as often elswhere for prerogatiue It is said of Midas that he wished every thinge he did touch might be gold I thinke they are as so manie Midasses every thing they deale in maketh for Peters prerogatiue a simple prerogatiue I thinke it is for him to bee named after all the Disciples Tub. Here bee shrewd accusations indeed they accuse you and you accuse them on whom shal I such other that stand in doubt betweene you relie They are very famous for their learning and paines taken in defence iustification of their cause their volumes and bookes are many and it maie be your replies answers are as large but here is the doubt who saith true Rom. Iuell to the reader in the def of the Apologie Indeed it cannot chuse but pitty everie good maÌ„ in behalfe of his vnlearned brother to see his conscience thus assalted this daie with so contrarie doctrines of religion especially when there is a zeale to followe and men knowe not what and would faine please God and cannot tell how or if they finde not themselues armed with Gods holie spirit not are able to discerne their meat from poison nor to wind theÌ„selues out of the snares for Sathan transformeth himselfe into an Angel of light 2. Cor. 11. the wicked are more watchful vehement then the Godly and falshood is oftentimes pointed beautified shineth more glorious then the truth These be the things which as S. Paule saith worketh the subversion of the hearers and by meane wherof 2. Tim. 2. Mat 24 as Christ saith if it were possible the very elect of God shoulde bee deceaued Notwithstanding God in these daies hath so amazed the adversaries of his Gospel and hath caused them so openly and so grossly to laie abroad their follies to the sight and face of all the world that noe man now bee hee neuer so ignorant can thinke he may be iustly excused it is but tolle lego take vp read read and vnderstand by Gods assistance But the indiscretion of manie in the world that doe stand doubtful of the truth betweene them vs is equivalent and semblable to that answere which I once hard a Master giue to on that had bin his Factor or rather indeed his fractor in a case not vnlike to this about some difference between them of accouÌ„ts the Factor pleaded his innocencie and truth by the plainenesse of his proceedings in deliuering his bills and reckonings to his Master from time to time to be examined his M. replied you haue so done indeed but you knowe that I neither did nor would looke on them It is noe basenesse for the greatest to de scend looke into their own estate Bacon sE of expeÌ„ce nor examine theÌ„ I fouÌ„d by that answere that the reason whie the Master would not nor had anie liking to veiw them was because hee woulde haue libertie at anie time as occasion serued to say he could not tell whether his man deceaued him or not Wheras if hee had but taken the paines to haue examined his mans dealings hee might haue bin assured to haue found how he had behaued himselfe towards him whether true or false so fareth it in these daies with vs painfull workes there are enough some of great volume some slighter al concerning the truth of our cause which all men maie see and read but that which galeth vs and most tieth our adversaries to themselues and their errors is that they who condemne vs knowe vs not whether we be white or black they neuer obserue Albi an atri simus nesciunt who say we are heretickes dispisers of the Church and yet neuer read what we hold nor examine vs in any thinge that we doe as publikely complaineth a great scholler of our side D. Doue of Recusancy c. 2 and I my selfe haue oft had experieÌ„ce And therfore in few words between them and vs I can saie as the ancient father Arnobius said against the Gentiles wheÌ„ they accused the christians of those things wherof themselues were guiltie even in the verie entrance of his conference he testifieth roundly to the world Arnob. contra Gentes lib. 1. in princip in these words Efficietur enim profecto rationum consequentium copulatu vt non impij nos magis sed illi ipsi reperiantur criminis estius rei qui renuminum profitentur esse cultores atque inveteratis religionibus deditos It shal be proued saith he by the ioining of our reasons to gether that we are not so wicked as they lay to our charge but that themselues are founde guiltie of that wherof they accuse vs who doe professe themselues worship pers of the Gods and only retainers of the ancieÌ„t religions But if you or any other wil be amated with anie streame of words to beleiue that part without looking into the matter reasons proofes drifts and arguments of al sides wherby you maie rightly iudge indeed the same Father telleth you againe Quid est enim quod humana ingenia tabefactare studio contradictionis non audeant Arnob. Ibid. l. â— fol. 102. what is it saith he that the witts of some meÌ„ dare not ruinate with the studie of coÌ„tradictioÌ„ yea although that which they studie to ouerthrowe be pure and clear and hedged with truth on everie side and who cannot saith hee dispute with arguments of great liklihood yea although he defend a manifest vntruth lye The roote of this error vaine consequeÌ„ce he toucheth in the next words following Cum enim sibipersuaserit quis esse quid aut non esse amat quod opinatur asserere When a man hath perswaided himselfe that anie thing is so or not so he then loueth what he apprehendeth and desireth to excell others in sharpnesse of wit especialliy if the matter which is dealt in be remote hid or darke But God be thanked those learned diuines reuerend prelats before mentioned and a number other in this age with their infinite toile and paine haue threshed and winnowed for vs the doctrine and differences of the Church of Rome and this of England they haue performed the first part of the Apostles speech which willeth to trie all things 1. Thess 5. â—1 the latter part resteth vpon vs to followe that that which is good bee kept nether can there be a keeping of that which is good without a triall of all things doe goe before so that I dare pronounce there is none who maie not if he will see on which side the truth is Epist 105. M. to this purpose I doe remember a sentence of the Godly and learned father S. Augustine which is Ignorantia in cis qui intelligere noluernut sine dubitatione peccatum est Ignorance in them which are notwillng to learne without doubt it is sinne in them which cannot learne a punishment of sin in both there is noe iust excuse but iust damnation Tub. It
the text The Doctors that defeÌ„d theÌ„ The manner of handling them or quoting of places not to be found to vse any vaine and foolish shifts in answere such as any may perceaue to bee feeble weake to deliuer their mindes so doubtfully that an English man in the English tongue shal not vnderstand vvhat they meane to be so contrarie and opposite on to an other and many times each froÌ„ himselfe to dispute for that which they confesse is not so ancient nor so good as the contrary It is an olde saying a rich man need not bee a theife and a good cause at their handes cannot bee lost for lack of pleading only that which wanteth is the truth of the cause they haue bin fashioÌ„ing of it these many yeares euer anon there comme some experter masters than formerly vvith some fresher vernish but noe better prose some tast of this dealing I gaue the readers be-but a more larger euidence and veiw shal follow after in diuers of the points mentioned that all the vvorld shal see confesse that the popish religion at this day taught and professed by the verie confused handling of it is nothinge lesse then accient catholike and true which shal be so faithfully collected that they shal not be denied to be their owne and so plaine for vnderstanding Peruium cunctis iter Sence in Oct. art 2. that although you concâ—aue little or nothing of the questions theÌ„selues yet you shall perceaue the weaknesse of their side by the manner of laying downe their proofes and defences Tub. When I shal see that performed substaÌ„tially which you haue here promised confidently I wil surly stay my haÌ„d from subscribing my harte from consenting to anie such doctrine as shal stand vpon such proofes Rom. By the grace of God I wil not faile to shew it you you shal not take any thing vpon report you shall see and read their owne bookes and discourses themselues and since now you are the man vnto vvhose conscience I appeale for your consent to our side let me shew you the dutie of a reader in a case of controuersie betweene two noe otherwise then D. Harding in his Reioynder against B. Iuell touching them both doth lay it down to you and me and al men else To the reader The dutie of a reader Consider I require thee saith he what is thy duty Remember thou be not partiall towards either of our persons Let all affection be laide aside Let your conscience be the rule of both loue hatred Let neither hope nor feare haue place in your hart to win or loose by either of our fortunes yea if you can so conceaue let our bookes represent vnto thee not Iuell Harding but two men Iohn Thomas departed this worlde to noe man liuing knowen to haue liued And when you haue left of all affection touching our persons then study to discharge thy minde of all blind parciality towards both our doctrines abandoning all humane likings and carnall phantasies with a single eie simple hart behold imbrace what is good true only for loue of God and for the truthes sake Being thus desposed commend your selfe vnto God with praier beseeching him to lighten your vnderstanding by his holie spirit to lead you vnto the truth This done with an humble hart read both our Treatises and iudg yet this much I saie in case of necessitie not to all in generall but to certaine such as by other meanes will not bee induced to consider of the truth The reply is that which B. Iuell wrot against him for otherwise I acknowledge that both the REPLY and all other hereticall bookes by order of the Church without speciall licence bee vnlawfull to be read and are vtter he forbidden to bee read or kept vnder paine of excoÌ„municatioÌ„ Remember I saie the part of a iudge is to iudge as the Lawyers speake secundum allegata probata that is to saie as things be alleadged proued Beware everie thing is not proued for which authorities bee alleadged Nota bene neither is all made good which by probable arguments seemeth to be concluded Allegations must be true plaine simple neither weakned by taking awaie nor strengthened by putting to of wordes nor wrested from the sence they beare in the writer else they bewraie the feeblenesse of the cause for proofe whereof they be alleadged also the great vntruth of theÌ„ that for furtherance of their purpose abuseth them if they haue corrupted their witnesses or brought in false witnesses if they haue vntruly reported their Doctors shamfully falsified their sayings theÌ„ ought you to giue sentence against them then is their honestie stained then is their credit defaced and then is their challenge quiet dashed Thus farr D. Harding Mat. 27.24 And Pilate tooke water and washed his handes before the multitude saying I am innocent of the bloud of this iust man euen so cleare is M. Hardinge and his fellowes froÌ„ misreporting the Doctors or falsifying their sayings or in not committing any thing wherof they would seeme to be most free as anon shal appeare Tub. Me thinketh by these words of D. Harding by your request made before vnto me that both parties on both sides require nothing more then that al their readers should ponder waighe the allegations proofes both of the one side other and then iudge of the truth accordingly but I feare he meaneth nothing less because he saith that both the REPLY al other hereticall books by order of the church without speciall licence bee vnlawfull to bee read or kept By hereticall bookes hee meaneth the protestants writings which inference abridgeth the libertie of reading consequeÌ„tly of iudging by any indifferent way or meane to come to the knowledge of the truth For the heathen Poet could deliuer a good speech to that purpose by the very light of naturall discourse Qui statuit aliquid parte inauditâ alterâ Aequum licet statuerit haud aquus fuit Senec in Med Act. 2. He that not hearing either part ponounceth his decree Vnrighteous maÌ„ accounted is though right his sentence be Rom. I did includ so much in mine owne speech vnto you before but that perhaps you wil sooner approue of your owne obseruation then my collection And to tel you truly which you shal certainty find by conuersing more with theÌ„ they doe not suffer the common laitie amongst them to see or read or heare any thinge without speciall licence so much and such parcells as it shal please them But those that they knowe are so stiffe and obstinate that nothing will a waken their vnderstanding perhapps they will giue some small libertie of reading the better to colour their denial to others And this doe they not only touching the vse or reading either of the holy scriptures or of the protestants bookes Hard cont Iuell art 2. fol. 56. In
concluding mattâ—…s of doctrine On the contrary side wee hold in few wordes that they may erre in all hauing no more assurance from aboue for the one then for the other For confirmation of which our position we alledge S. Augustine who speaking both of the priuate writings of Bishops and of councells held in particular regions and of generall counsells gathered of the Christian world saith Etipa concilia quae per singulas regiones vel prouincias fiunt ToÌ„ 6. de bapt con Donat. l. â— c. 3. plenariorum conciliorum authoritati quae fiunt vx vniuerso orbe christiano sine vllis ambagibus cederâ— And eueÌ„ those counsells which are held in euerie region or prouince without al doubt must giue place to generall couÌ„sells which are gathered of all the christian world and that euen the generall counsells themselues are often corrected the former by the later when by any triall of things that is opened which was shutt vp and that is knowen which was hid without any swelling of sacrilegious pride without any stiffe necke of arrogancy without any contention of malitious enuy with holy humilitie with catholike peace with Christian charitie Here wee haue a plaine place that only the holy scripture cannot erre that all other writers may erre that all prouinciall counsell may erre and last of al generall councells themselues may be corrected the former by the later therfore without question they may erre They agree with vs in this text of S. Augustine but the meaning of the words not withstanding they be very plaine they doe deny framing the text to as many fashions as possible they may They seeme by their answers vtterly vnacquainted with the occasion of S. Augustines discourse in that place as though it were a very hard thinge ether to see the originall 〈◊〉 hauing seene it to iudge of it But the multiplicitie and crokednesse of their shifts doth plainly shew that the authoritie maketh against them and for vs. Andradius the defender of the Tridentine counsell Andr. defeal conc Trid. l. 1. fol. 51. 53. They may be explaned or vnfolded is the first shift saith that S. Augustine seemeth to him to say no more but that later counsells maie with clearnesse vnfold those things which the former had overslipped And that S. Augustine insinuateth so much where hee saith when by triall of things that is opened whâ—…h was shut vp and is knowne which was hidden This glosse of Andradius will soone eate out the bowels of the text S. Augustine saith a generall councell may be amended therfore corrected which is more then to be explaned or vnfolded And the opposition that S. Augustine makes between the holy scriptures which is not to erre all other authorities must needs stand firme that must be inferred vpon generall couÌ„cels which cannot 〈◊〉 spoken of the scriptures but the scriptures may be said to be vnfolded explaned or enlightened but not corrected therefore S. Augustine meaneth more of generall councels than so Advers haer l. c. 8. fol. 17. a. leaveth out the principall member eveÌ„ plainly that they may erre Alphonsus a Castro alleadgeth this of Augustine by the halfe For where S. Augustine saith and even generall couâ—cels are often corrected the former by the later he breaketh it of and saith nothing of it alleadgeth the former part to proue that provinciall councels may erre as though S. Augustine had gone no farther and not spoken of generall also 3. Locor Theol. l. 5. fol. 185. b. ad 10. Non videtur loqui de emeÌ„datione fidei sed legum Melchior Canus comming to answere this place of Austine deviseth a new shift That S. Augustine there speaketh not of any amendment in a matter of Faith but of Lawes which are to bee referred to things either done already or to be done A strange kinde of harmony these men make in opening one poore place in this ancient father But they do herein as theeues indicted for robbery they wil confesse nothing because they know they are guilty but must haue all things proued against theÌ„ He speaketh plainely of the question of Rebaptization as by and by I wil declare when I come to Bellarmine The Rhemists glauÌ„ce at this text of Austine in their notes on the new testament 4. Annot. in 15. Acts. v. 13. of accidentall changable things Tull. offic l 3. and do therein exceedingly giue the world to vnderstand that when they compiled that worke they aimed only to vphold folsehood and not to open anie truth But as Tully said of falshood in oaths Fraus distringit non dissoluit periurium Deceipt bindeth but doth not discharge the oath so let them huddle shuffle cloake hide glose and doe what they wil the text of Augustine is open for all men and there may they most be discouered He speaketh say they of circumstances accident all which require alteration and not of essentiall points of doctrine when he saith the former generall or plenary counsells may be amended by the later Quasi matrimonio habet dotatam rempublicam Cicero Octauio 5. Bellar. de con author l. 2. c. 7. fol. 119. Why cannot Bellar. mine tell wherof S. Aug. speaketh quasi matrimonio habent dotatum Augustinum As though S. Augustine were giueÌ„ to them in marriage and all men else shut from him and so they vse him The Iesuite Bellarmine according to the manner of his aunswering commeth in with two or three fortès peraduenture he speaketh of this peraduenture he speaketh of that and yet neuer hitteth the right peradventure To the authoritie I answere first saith he Perhaps S. Augustine speaketh of vnlawfull councells which are amended by others after that are lawfull as it hapned to the 2 Ephesine counsel 6. De questionibus facti non iuris which was amended in the Chalcedon Secondly it he spake of lawfull counsels then saith hee hee speaketh of matters of fact and not of right in such kind of questions it is out of doubt that a couÌ„sel maie erre for the principal questioÌ„ of the Catholike with the Donatists was about one Caecilianus whether hee had deliuered the scriptures into the handes of the heretikes or not And it may bee aunswered by a thirde waie saith he if our aduersaries contend That S. Augustine speaketh generally of al questions when he saith That former councells may be amended by later that then he speaketh of precepts of maners and not of questions of Faith for precepts are changed according to times places persons and those changings are called amendings not that the thinge was before ill but that it began to bee ill the circumstances being changed And both these answeres are confirmed by the words of Augustine when he saith that then Counsells are amended when by some experience that is opened which was hid questions of matters of fact or of maners not al questisoÌ„ of right are opened by experiment Thus far Bellarmine