of Christes institution the Apostles tradition the vniuersall practise of the primitiue Church And what so euer great wordes beside you haue streyned your lunges to pronounce you haue sayd nothing for oblation or prayer for the deade to be the institution of Christ and all this geere but I may say the same for the drinking of milke and hony after baptisme for not fasting on Sonday ▪ or prayer on knees c by like vniuersalitie antiquitie consent authoritie 8 If the authors be past hope yet their followers shall take goodly occasion to forsake such wicked maisters and be ashamed of all their vndecent dealyng if they note and consider with me that the first preachers of this peruerse opinion were such that none of all their scholars durst euer for shame for the proofe of their assertion name their owne doctors And truely a man might well maruel why heretikes hauing some that did plainely professe their opinions had yet rather picke out some darke sentence of any one of our holy fathers whome they knowe to be directly against them then out of those same doctors of their owne which in expresse wordes make for them You shall not lightly heare an heretike that denieth praying to sainctes or holdeth with open breache of holy vowes alleage Iouinianus or Vigilantius Nor a Sacramentarie seeke for the authoritye of Berengarius or Wicleffe though they be of some antiquitie and without colour plainely doe mainteine the doctrine that so well lyketh them But they will trauell to writh with plaine iniurie to the author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that by their whole life and practise open them selues to the worlde to beleue the contrary and all this by some shewe of wordes for the bearing of their false assertions Marke it well I saye in heretikes that they can not for shame of them selues euer name any of the plaine auouchers of their owne opinions The cause is that the only vpholding of their opinions made them infamous to the whole posterity And if any honour grewe vnto them amongest the simple because they lacked not the wayes to procure the peoples consent with admiration of their eloquence or other plausible and populare qualities in their dayes yet trueth following time their same raised vpon so light causes easely decayd and the grounde of perpetuall infamie sattled in wise mens heartes by the wickednesse of their attemptes remained for a testimony to all posteritie of their shame and ignominie And this I speake not onely of the authors of our common sectes for they neuer atteined to any shade of famous report in their dayes because they coulde deceiue none but simple wemen but I meane by Arius him selfe and Pelagius with the like who in their owne time being of great esteeme amongest many whome they deceiued yet after their death more more they grew to shame and infamie so farre that who so euer were of their opinions afterward durste not yet for shame vse their name or authority for proofe of their owne doctrine See you not in our dayes howe freshe the name of Luther Caluin Bucer with that rable was amongest the rude people whome they had wonne either with speach or pleasure of licentious doctrine and loe nowe it decayeth in a maner or their bones be coulde The peoples sensies raueshed with the present pleasure of such as they hearde last like them so longe as they heare them afterwarde their memory remaineth onely to malediction Vidi impium superexaltatum eleuatum sicut Cedros Libani transiui ecce non est quaesiui non est inuentus locus eius I haue seene the wicked exalted and set vp as the Cedre trees of Libanus I passed by and loe out of hande he is no body I sought him and his abiding can not be founde VVho so euer shall seeke for our glorious preachers with in this C. yeare he shall finde them in such estimation then as their forefathers be nowe that is to say to be vnworthy the naming of their owne adherents if any of that secte liue and last so longe For let them neuer looke to come to the infamous fame of Arrius the best of all these secte maisters not worthy to be scholar to a hundreth of his followers Thus loe is the case of heretikes liked of fooles when they be alieue contemned of all men when they are deade 8 M. Allen marueileth and giueth a speciall note that we name not Iouinian Vigilantius Berengarius or VVickleffe to be the authors of our doctrine but rather hang vppon some sentence of Augustine or Ambrose and thinketh we are ashamed of the other In deede if we depended vpon any mens authoritie or that any man or men were the authors of our faith as it fareth with the popish faith we should be iniurious vnto them if we did not acknowledge our foūders as they doe some of theirs But seeing God him selfe is the father of that doctrine which we haue receiued by his holy word we neither boast vpon Augustine nor Ambrose when they dissent therefro neither are ashamed of Vigilantius nor Beringarius when they agree therewith We refuse not the truth that Tertullian Origin haue taught because they taught heresies also neither do we receiue the errors of Cypriā Augustin because they taught many points of true faith Onely the canonicall Scriptures are the rule by which we iudge of all men and their writings of all doctrine and the teachers therof It is a ridiculous thing that M. Allen like a cold Prophet taketh vpon him to tell what shall be thought of our preachers names within these hundred yeares But what so euer he prateth the memory of the righteous shall remayne for euer neither shall they be afrayde of any euill reporte their names are written in the booke of life which are ordeyned vnto eternall glory howso euer they be accounted of by the wicked of this worlde And yet there is no cause why we should not thinke that the names and writings of Luther Caluine and Bucer shal remayne in good account with Gods Church euen vntil they them selues shall come with Christ to iudge the worlde when in the meane time Eccius Pighius Cocleus and such other shall not be remembred but as obstinate withstanders of the truth and enemies of the Gospell 9 Now in the doctors of Gods Church it is cleane contrarie and no lesse worthy to be noted for our purpose for their honour and estimation rising vpon the sure vnfallible grounde of Gods trueth by yeares and time gathereth such force that not onely their memorie is in perpetuall benediction before God but their workes follow them in the mindes of their posteritie to their owne eternall praise and benefite of all their followers And which is much more to be woundered at they haue so passed enuy and malice of man that euen those which deadly hate them dare not but praise them And such as mislike their doctrine
obstinately defend the filthy whore of babylon against the cleare light of the Gospell the true spouse of Christ ye shall be damned except you recant The 23. article conteyneth 2. demandes 1 Againe shew me any Church or imagin if you can by good reason a church of Christ in which there is no gathering together for preaching no spirite of prophesying no rodde of correction no order of ministring nor any spirituall functioÌ„ that can be named proue me that there should be a true Church for a thousand yeares together and lacked all these thinges YOu would faine haue a great nombre of Articles and therefore you bring in one matter often times in diuers phrase of words that it might seeme a new matter when it hath bene vttered twise or thrise before as this Article is conteined before in the 5.8 and 9. Articles where you shall finde it more largely aunswered But let vs see what this strange demande requireth we must shew him a church or els imagine by good reason a church of Christ without preaching ministring and discipline for a thousand yeares together Although we will not graunt that it hath so longe continued without these exercises yet because you geue vs leaue to imagine we can imagine that it may as well continue without publike preaching ministring and discipline for a thousand yeares as it did for three hundred yeares before Constantine But you will say there was preaching ministring and correcting though it were not knowen to the tyrantes and persecutors so say I vnto you for that thousand yeres there was gathering together for preaching ministring and correcting though the Pope and his persecuting Prelates coulde not alwayes see it nor come to the knowledge of it for if they had once intelligence of it they smarted for it as is knowen by the stories of the Waldenses Bohemians c. Furthermore continuall exercise of preaching ministring of sacramentes and executing of discipline are notes of a quiet and peaceable Congregation not of a dispersed persecuted and disquieted Church How often doth S. Cyprian coÌ„plaine that the brethren could not be gathered togither for executing of discipline whereby it is certeyne that likewise they coulde not be gathered togither for other exercises Therefore the intermission of these exercises in a persecuted Church doth not proue the same to be no true Church But where so euer there be two or three gathered togither in the name of Christ there is he in the middest of them But whereas you require the spirite of prophesie except you meane the gift of interpreting the Scriptures the Church in the most quiet and flourishing state may want the spirite of shewing things to come as well as the giftes of tongues healing c. 2 And withall that there was an other vntrue Church which for those many dayes onely practised to the saluation of many all these offices and geue me a good reason why this Church that alwayes hath had these thinges should be a false Church and the other that wanted them to be a true Church and I recant WE vtterly denye that beside the true Church there was an vntrue church that practised those offices to the saluation of any man for once againe I tell you you haue neither the preaching of the word nor ministring of Sacraments nor execution of discipline according to the truth of God his institution but either altogither changed or else greatly corrupted And whereas you say that the popish church onely hath practised these offices I aske you againe whether the Greeke Church be a parte of your Church and whether the Papistes in England be a part of your Church The Grecians you will say are not but the English Papistes are Then haue I founde out by your owne iudgement the Church of the Grecians practising these offices being an vntrue church the church of the English Papistes not practising the same yet graunted of you to be a true Church Therfore you are bound to recant The 24. article conteyneth 10. demandes 1 Moreouer let any man shew how that Church can be the piller of truth which durst not for a thousand yeares clayme either preaching of Gods word or ministring of SacrameÌ„ts or shew her selfe against falshood or superstition AS the number of your articles doth draw to an ende so your matter is farre spent and therefore to make vppe your number you must repete one thing twise This demaund is conteined before in the 11. and 12. articles where also it is fully aunswered Notwithstanding seeing it commeth againe it shal be briefly aunswered in this place The Church is not called the piller of truth because it should stand alwayes in the sight of the world for then the defection which S. Paule speaketh of could not haue come neither should the Church flie into the wildernes as was declared to S. Iohn But it is called the piller of truth because that where so euer the Church is either visible or inuisible there is the truth So though the Church were hidde a certeyne time in the wildernes yet there was trueth with the Church You seeme to be a good Arithmetrician for no number soundeth in your mouth but a thousand Neuerthelesse how long so euer it was the piller of truth decayed not And as God gaue his spirite diuers times was bold to chalenge preaching and ministring of the Sacraments yea and so boldly that it cost many of the chalengers their liues As Berengarius Bruno Marsilus de Pandua Ioannes de Gaudano Ioannes VVickleffe VValdo Ioannes Hus Ieronymus de Praga c. Thus it is manifest that the Church hath diuers tymes chalenged her right and withstood falshood 2 Let any man shew that all giftes of the spirite and functions of the holy Ghost haue bene taken from her a thousand yeares togither and onely practised to the peoples vse by an aduouterous Church THere is no man can shew this for it is a false lye that all giftes of the spirite function of the holy Ghost were either taken from the true Church or giuen to the adulterous church And this hath bene shewed more then once or twise before 3 Let it be declared how the gates of hell haue not preuailed or Christes promise and warrant for her not bene voyd frustrate if a bastard Church exercising idolatry as they say hath spoyled the true Church of all holy actions and the whole gouernment and the whole name of Christianitie almost euer since Christes tyme. THe Deuill hath bent all his force and ordinance he hath armed all the power of darkenesse he stirred vp â—yrantes heretikes Popes Saracenes and Turkes to destroye the Church the dragon that olde serpent Satanas the Deuill stoode before the woman to deuoure her childe he persecuted her into the wildernesse he cast out of his mouthe a great riuer to cary her awaie he made warre with the rest of her seede that keepe the commaundementes of god Apoc. 12. but yet in despight of the deuill the
for as euery heretike chalengeth vnto him selfe the trueth of opinions so also doth he chalenge the possession of the church so that the church is alwayes in as great question as the doctrine And then is it to be sought out and tried onely by the scriptures as we haue declared at large in the aunswere to the 4. Article 2. demande Secondly whereas you demande whether she coulde be so hidde or close that no man coulde finde her because I haue aunswered to this demande fower or fiue times already I will now aunswere in one worde Although she was bidden and close from the worlde yet was she knowen to them that were her children 2 Or so harteles that she coulde succour no man nor instruct any man in his doubt of conscience or distresse of Faith proue me that there maye be such a decay of Gods spirite trueth and Church and I recant THe Church hath neuer bene afraide to do her office towardes her children and true members in teaching â—xhorting comforting confirming c. neither hath the spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth and Christ hath bene with her euer more and shal be to the worldes end But that the spirite of God truth and the Church of Christ shoulde departe from the greatest numbre of the worlde is proued by S. Paule 2. Thess. 2. and by the Reuelation of S. Iohn Apoc. 12. Therfore if the spirite of trueth did leade you you shoulde recant The 26. article conteyneth in effect but 3. demandes 1 Shew me againe whether any man of yeares may be saued except he beleue the Catholike Church THere is no man of what age or yeares soeuer he be that can be saued except he be a member of the Catholike church But how necessary it is to beleue the Catholike church it is very doubtfull as you demande and as the conclusion of this article seemeth to require If you meane that it is necessary to beleue the Catholike church that is to say that God hath an holy vniuersall Congregation I graunt it is necessary to beleue But I vtterly deny that the Romish church is that holy Catholike church But if you meane as it seemeth and as the rest of the Papistes doe interprete that article I beleue the Catholike church that is I beleue what soeuer the church doth allow to be true I deny that it is necessary to saluation that a Christian man should so beleue the Catholike church both because the church may erre also because something may be commonly receiued of the church which is not materiall to saluation And that this is a false interpretation of this article of our Creede I beleue the Catholike church that is I beleue what so euer she doth set forth or maintaine to be true appeareth manifestly by the wordes them selues For who euer was so ignorant in the Latine tongue to thinke that Credere Ecclesiam and Credere Ecclesiae were all one in signification In deede if the wordes were Credo Ecclesiae Catholicae in the datiue case this interpretation might take place but when it is in the accusatiue case Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam A boy that woulde conster it otherwise than thus I beleue that there is a Catholike church were worthy to haue a doosen stripes for his labour Moreouer this common distinction of Credere in Deum that is to put our trust in god Credere Deum that is to beleue that there is a God and Credere Deo that is to geue credit to God that he speaketh the trueth plainely ouerthroweth this foolish and false interpretation For we say not Credo in Ecclesiam that is I put my whole trust in the Church for that were blasphemie against God in whome only we must beleue neither do we say Credo Ecclesiae that is I geue credit to the Church as though she shoulde alwaies speake the trueth But we saye and confesse against all heretikes and scismatikes Credo Ecclesiam c. that is I beleue that there is one Holy Catholike and Apostolike church whereof I am a member c. Finally when the articles following are spoken in one context and phrase it can not be chosen but that they must haue one kinde of interpretation Communionem Sanctorum Remissionem peccatorum Carnis resurrectionem that is I beleue the Communion of Sainctes the forgeuenesse of sinnes the Resurrection of the body c. whereof the interpretation must needes be this I beleue that there is a Communion of Sainctes that there is forgiuenesse of sinnes c. Euen so I beleue that there is a Catholike Church which is an article of our crede necessary to be beleued of euery Christian man but to beleue all and euery thing that the Catholike church by commoÌ„ consent doth maintaine is no article of our Faith and therefore not necessary to saluation 2 And that is it which hath in the face of all the worlde practised preachâ—ng the conuersion of nations to the obedience of the Gospell that hath alwaies had the ministring of sacraments the hearing of matters in controuersie power Iudiciarie in Ecclesiasticall causes the orderly succession of Byshops vniformitie in solemne ceremonies vnity in faith that hath in her selfe all holy functions of the spirite as working of miracles remission of sinnes the true sence and interpretation of Gods word that is bewtified by the diuersitie of states commended by Christ in the Gospell as with Virgines with Martyrs with Confessors and the rest BEcause these colewortes haue bene sodden twise or thryse already they are not worthy to be shewed in seuerall dishes but euen as they are here mingled all togither in an hochpotte Of these notes that you make proper to the Catholike Church as it hath bene declared before some are not alwaies necessary in the catholike church As open preaching in the face of the world open ministring of Sacraments and execution of discipline these are not to be required in a persecuted Church Some were proper for a time and then ceased as working of miracles and diuers other functions of the spirite Some are neuer necessary in the Church as succession of Bishops vniformitie in ceremonies c. But of all these notes there is not one that is proper to the Church of Rome for she hath not alwaies practised open preaching and neuer preached the worde of truth she hath conuerted but few nations to her Religion from Gentilitie and them rather by warre than by preaching she neuer had sence she first arose the ministring of sacraments according to Christ his institutioÌ„ she hath hard matters in controuersie not for furtherance of Iustice but for loue of money Her iudiciarie power may be dispensed withall for money She hath had no orderly succession of Bishops except an hore be an orderly Bishop of the Church of Rome And except so many schismes as they write of be orderly successions she hath not vniformitie in all ceremonies for diuerse nations and diuerse Churches in these nations haue diuers
them to life and placeth them in heauen with christ Ephes. 2. And as for that painfull penaunce that M. Allen complaineth to be so neglected in our tyme he chargeth vs vniustly with the cause thereof For within tyme of mans memory before the light of the Gospell did shine openly we saw no such painfull penaunce commonly but v. ladyes psalters v. pater nosters v. pence to v. poore men in remembraunce of the v. woundes v. fry dayes fast and such like And as for pilgrimage it was but a pastime for such as loued to roue about the cuntryes The hardest penaunce was to pay so deare for the paultry of Monkes merites and Fryers fables Popes pardons and such like Et hinc illae lachrymae This maketh the bitter complaint that this marchaundise will no more be bought but this is the iudgement of God vpon the great whore of Babylon 3 Considering therefore the great spread of contagion that this vntrue doctrine hath wrought both to the euerlasting miserie of heretikes them selues and also to the greuous punishment that almighty God of iust iudgement may take vpon vs that by his great mercy be yet Catholikes because we liue in wanton welth with out iust care or cogitation of our life past Neither doing any worthy fructes of penaunce nor yet endeuouring to make a mendes and recompense by satisfying for our sinnes before of mercy so pardned that to our damnation they can not now any more be imputed but yet for answering in summe parte of Gods iustice and perfect purging of the same sinnefull life past out of all doubte sharpely punishable for these thinges I say and for the stirring vp of the feare of God in my selfe the helpe of the simple the defense of the trueth and thabating of this great rage of sinne and heresie I thought good to geue warning moued therevnto by my frende also to all such as be not them selues able to searche out the trueth of these matters of that temporall or transitory punishment which God of iustice hath ordained in the other worlde for such as woulde not iudge them selues and preuent his heauy hand whiles they here liued our forefathers more then a thousand yeare since called it Purgatory The truth and certaine doctrine whereof I trust through Gods goodnesse so clearely to proue that the aduersary be he neuer so great with the Deuill shall neuer be able to make any likely excuse of his infidelitie And that so done I shall both open and proue the meanes which the Church of God hath euer profitably vsed for the reliefe of her children from the same punishment to the soueraigne good and comfortable for the faithfull soules departed And here I hartely pray thee gentle Reader whosoeuer thou be that shall finde iust occasion vndoubtedly to beleue this article of necessary doctrine euer constantly set forth by the grauest authoritie that may be in earth that as thou faithfully beleues it so thou perpetually in respect of the day of that dreadfull visitation study with feare and trembling to worke thy saluation Let that be for euer the difference betwixt the vnfruitefull faith of an heretike and the profitable beliefe of the true Catholike Christian that this may worke assured penaunce to perpetuall saluation and his vaine presumption to euerlasting damnation And though the matter which I haue taken in hand be nothing fitte for the diet of such delicate men as haue bene brought vp vnder the pleasant preaching of our dayes yet perchaunce change of diet with the sharpnesse of this eager sawse were if they could beare it much more agreable to their weake stomackes Trueth was euer bitter and faulshood flattering For th one by present paine procureth perpetuall wealth thother through deceitfull sweetenes worketh euerlasting woe But as for these pleasure preachers them selues because I feare me they haue indented with death and shaked hands with hell whatsoeuer may be sayd in this case they will yet spurne with the wordes of the wicked Flagellum inundans cum transierit not veniet super nos quia posuimus mendacium spem nostram mendacio protecti sumus Tush the common scourge when it passeth ouer shall not touch vs for we haue made lying our succour and by lying are we garded Yet when the light of the Apostolike tradition shall dase their eyes and the force of Gods truth beare downe their boldnes their owne blacke afflicted conscience by inward acknowledging that truth which they openly withstand shall so horribly torment their mindes that denying Purgatory they shall thinke them selues a liue in hell But gentle Readers pray for them with teares that God of his mighty grace would strike their flesh with his feare And if my poore paine with the prayers of vs all could turne any one of them all from the way of wickednesse it would recompense doubtlesse some of our sinnes and couâ—r a number of my misdeedes And euer whilest we liue let vs praise God that in this time of temptation he hath not suffered vs to fall as our sinnes haue deserued into the misery of these forsakers To whom if I speake sometimes in this treatise more sharply then my custome or nature requireth the zeale of truth and iust indignation towards heresie with the example of our forefathers must be my excuse and warrant I wil be as plain for the vnlearneds sakes as I may the matter suffer And therfore now at the first I will open the very ground as neare as I can of so necessary an article that the ignorance of any one peece may not darken the whole cause Desiring the studious to reade the whole discourse because euery peculiar pointe so ioyntly dependeth of the residewe that the knowledge of one orderly geueth light to all the other And so the whole togither I â—rust shall reasonably satisfie his desire 3 Here as I take it in the second face of the 18. leafe beginneth the 3. matter promised in the argument namely a briefe note of the authors intent c. The chiefe consideration as I gather is for that men endeuour not to make amendes and recompence by satisfying for their sinnes and therefore for answering some part of Gods iustice and perfect purging of the same sinnefull life past there remayneth sharpe punishment after this lyfe I will commit to Christ to be reueÌ„ged the horrible iniury done to his death and bloud shedding which if it be not a full aunswering of Gods iustice and a perfect purging of all our sinnefull life in vaine shall we seeke it else where But I will reason with M. Allen in his owne principles What say you Sir remayneth there some part of Gods iustice to be aunswered by suffering Surely if the passion of Christ will not serue that was the immaculate lambe of God it were straunge that the suffering of a sinnefull man should satisfie the same And if suffering of the party that hath sinned be necessarily required for aunswering some part of
successions did euer chuse out for the warrant of their faith from amongest the reste the Roman Seate And now when there is no apostolike Church left in the whole worlde but it that they will seeke to Churchies whereof there is neither certainty nor succession when by plaine open dealing we may reduce and must needes referre our faith to that which was euer of all other most farre from falshoodde 3 Euery man in the primitiue Church compted the springe of his faith more pure if he coulde deriue it out of the holy Scriptures and shew the continuance thereof in any of the Apostolicke Churches whereof Rome was but one And condemned all heresies of nouelty or later string which coulde not bring the first author of their heresies eyther from any of the Apostles or apostolicke men which cōtinued in the doctrine of the Apostles as Tertullian doth in that booke De praescriptionibus aduersus haereses The like doth Irenaeus And that these men specially named the Church of Rome it was because the Church of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles And these heretikes for the most parte had bene sometimes of the Church of Rome as Valentinus Marcion Nouatus But none of these fathers as M. Allen woulde haue it appeare was such a sclaue to the Church of Rome that what so euer pleased the Byshoppes of that Sea they were ready to accept For then woulde not Irenaeus so sharpely haue reproued Victor as Eusebius declareth of him Lib. 5. cap. 25. Cyprian woulde not haue taken vp Cornelius and Stephanus as appeareth by his epistles Hieronym woulde not haue bene so bolde to call Rome the purple whore of Babylon Praefat. ad Paulinū in lib. Didym Nor to compare the bishoppe of Eugubium with the bishop of Rome Euagrio nor to make the Church of England equall with the Church of Rome Nec iam altera Romanae vrbis ecclesia altera totius orbis existimanda est Et Gallia Britania Africa Bersis Oriens Indiae omnes barbarae nationes vnum Christum adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis Si authoritas quaeritur orbis maior est vrbe Neither must we thinke that there is one Church of the citye of Rome an other of all the worlde beside Both France and Britayne and Africa and Persia and the Easte and India and all barbarous nations worship one Christ keepe one rule of trueth If authoritie be sought the world is greater then one citye c. Loe Syr here is a Church and christianity and a rule of trueth with out the byshoppe of Rome with out the Church of Rome yea and contrary to the church of Rome For to them that alleged the custome of the church of Rome he sayth Quid mihi profers vnius vrbis cōsuetudinem what bring you me the custome of one citye and Augustine him selfe that knwe so well to fetch an heretike ouer the coles I trowe fetched Zosimus Bonifacius and Coelestinus byshoppes of Rome meetly well ouer the coles when he and his fellowes the byshoppes of Africa tooke them with plaine forgerie and falsification of the canons of the councell of Nice Consilio Milebitano Africano As for that which M. Allen compteth so strange is for lacke of skill and right iudgement For the same cause that moued those auncient fathers to appeale to the iudgment of the church of Rome moueth vs now to condemne the church of Rome of heresie wherefore did they reuerence the church of Rome Aske Tertullian he aunswereth because it had by succession reteined euen vntill his dayes that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Therefore it was a true Church therefore it was an apostolicke Church which because it doth not nowe neither hath done of many yeares and hath nothing to boast of but the empty names of many good bishops but thrise as many more of cursed Antichristes therefore it is nowe a false church and a company of heretikes departed from the auncient Romaines true and apostolicke faith 4 Bring my faith once to S. Gregory and the very streame shall driue me to S. Peter and Paule maugre all their beardes In which ordre of Byshops finde me one that set forth by decree any practise of contrary doctrine to that which his next predecessor did before him mainteine I will go seeke with the stray a newe mother Church to founde my faith vpon If all be in this succession salfe and sounde what a folly were it to forsake our owne mother and spring of our belefe to seeke other which haue often erred when they stoode and nowe be almost wholy decaide But yet it is wisedome for false teachers with all force to flie from so greate light as maye arise to the trueth by the recognising of that sounde succession and going the iuste contrary way from the olde doctors faith it is not to be thought straunge that they directly seeke to ouerthrowe that bulwarcke which they euer leaned vnto in the stormes of schisme and heresie The shrewes do knowe full well the might of trueth in that Seate and succession to haue beaten downe all their forefathers the heretikes of all agies They feare their fall whose steppes they follow They vtter much malice torment them selfe in euery sermon in vaine that Church feeleth no sore but in sorow of compassion towardes her forsakers she hath bidden greater stormes then this first by tyraunts then by heretikes last and most by the euill life of her owne Bishoppes In all which she yet standeth and euer riseth to honour as she is most impugned Their owne preaching hath singularly opened the might of God in the defense of that Seate of vnity VVhen they first beganne to touche and taunt the Pope in euery sermon in euery playe in booke and balate men that before liuing in faithfull simplicitie much medled not with his matters nor often hearde of his name beganne straight upon their busy ralinge to conceiue by reasonable discretion that there lay some greate grounde of matter and weight of trueth vpon that point which they coulde not digest in so many yeares bauling and barking at his name they saw the Pope euer in their way neuer out of their mouth and they doubted not but that singular hatred grew vpon some great importance and so admonished luckely by the aduersaries they sought the bottom of that perfecte and deepe hatered and found that it was the olde sore of the Arians and disease of the Donatistes and common to all heretikes they perceiued by S. Cyprian that the first attempte of such men was to driue awaye the pastor that they might with out resistance deuour and destroie the flocke And which was the pricke of all their endeuours to take from vs the acknowledging of the great and singular benefite of our conuersion to the faith that in stopping the heade of that condeth and plentifull well of our faith
know that he despiseth being but a mortall fraile man the grauest iudgement that God hath left in earth for the determination of any matter Let him be ashamed that he being but one man taketh vpon him to controule diuers hundreths of the most chosen for vertue for learning for experience in the whole Church of God yea let him if he haue any affection of grace tremble and feare to deface the dealing of that honorable and vniuersall parlament that representeth vnto vs Gods holy whole Church hauing the assured promise of the holy Ghostes assistance for their guiding in all truth Yet I see before hand the aduersaries will not admitte the iudgemâ—â—t of these or any other Councells neither in such men doe I much maruell to finde so litle humility and so much impudency For all heretikes condemned by councells did euer condeÌ„ne as they could the same councells againe So were the first 4. councells which all Christian men with S. Gregory accept as the holy Gospells of God vtterly refused by the parties in them condemned The Arians by great force of worldly Princes and many assembles deuilishly withstoode the Councell of Nice the Macedonians reiected the councell of Constantinople the first the Nestorians nothing estemed the councell of Ephese Eutiches and Dioscorus litle regarded the councell of Chalcedon in which they their followers were condemned of heresie for sundry pointes which now were ouerlong and not for our purpose to rehearse Then by refusing the heauenly sentence of the Churches iudgement they win nothing else but the assured marke of an heretike They declare them selues that as they be in heresie as deepe as the best so they in pride and boldnes be not behind the worst But all Catholikes faithful beleuers as soone as they know the determination of such a number of so well learned fathers gathered in the vnitie of Gods Church and spirite streight way they receiue it and submit them selues as to the iudgement and reuelation of the holy Ghost For so the Christian brethren that were molested by the contentious clamors of certeyne troublesom heades at Antioch being once certified by the letters of that first Christian councel what was decreed and enacted concerning the matters called in question they then regarded no more what the aduersaries thought therein but out of hand Gauisi sunt super consolatione they reioysed in that comfort of their agreement And Ruffinus writeth that when Constantinus the great vnderstoode the determination of the doubtes proposed in the great councell of Nice he receiued it as the oracle of God Defertur ad Constantinum sacerdotalis concilij sententia ille tanquam a Deo prolatam veneratur the decree sayth he of the priestes was shewed to Constantine and he straight with all reuerence accepted it as Gods owne sentence And if our aduersaries coulde learne a litle humilitie they might quickely be dispatched of a great deale of heresie The which as it first beganne with the conceite of singularitie and contempt of other so it procedeth with maliperte boldnesse and endeth in plaine disobedience of the Church of the Councells of the scriptures and Gods owne spirite VVhome without moe wordes I woulde nowe geue ouer vnto God hauing as I trust already geuen them sufficient occasion by the euident proofe of my matter to remembre their misery and heuy condition but that I must remoue out of the simples waye such stoombling stockes as perhaps might somewhat trouble the vnlearned who for lacke of deepe iudgement be moste subiecte to the aduersaries deceites 2 It is true humilitie that all men should submit them selues to the authoritie of Gods worde and it is horrible presumption that any man or multitude of men shoulde take vppon them authoritie to define against the worde of god As the councell of Constance which decreeth in plaine wordes that notwithstanding Christ instituted the sacrament to be receiued in both kindes and that the faithfull in the primatiue Church did so receiue it yet the custome of the church of Rome shall preuaile and whosoeuer sayeth contrary is an heretike c. The councells that are receiued are therefore receiued because they decreed truely and not the trueth receiued because it was decreed in councells Else why is Nicene councel receiued and Arriminense reiected why is Ephesinum primum embraced and Ephesinum secundum detested Finally why is the determination of Nicene councell which is but one beleued against 10. councells holden by the Arrians but that the Nicene councell decreed according to the worde of God and all the rest against it wherfore if any councell decree according to the scriptures as the councell of the Apostles did Actes 15. and the councell of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of god But if any councell decree contrary to the authoritie of the scriptures as many did without all presumptioÌ„ or pride we may iustly reiect them 3 And with such thus they lightely practise first by lofty lookes and high chalengies they crake and boste with passing boldnes that the learned men of the worlde the sage fathers of the auncient times all the graue Councells the whole vsage of the primitiue Church with plaine Scripture to be on their parte And as for the contrary teaching that it came in of late with the decay of learning and light of trueth in these barbarous times when superstition and daâ—ke ignorance had wasted the doctrine of the yeares past And in this bragge they stande till some Catholike man encounter with them By whome when they see them selues so driuen from the standinge which they kept with greate glory before that they must be wholy naked and destitute in the face of the worlde of all such helpes as they accompted to haue for the outwarde shew of their deceitfull doctrine then in plaine wordes they confesse their teaching not to hange on the antiquitie not on councells not on Doctors nor on any man but on Gods holy spirite and worde which can not deceiue them And so at the ende the olde vse of the primitiue Church the fathers and the generall Councells arrogantly contemned or rather vnworthely condemned marke well their prety conceites they make then a matche betwene them selues with Gods worde on the one partie and the doctors and fathers with out Gods worde on the other partie Affirming that they be not bounde to beleue them but where they agree with the scriptures of god And then turning their talke to the simple thus they preache vnto them by a captious and foolish demaunde whether they thinke it more reason or conuenient to beleue the scriptures or doctors the determination of the true and liuely worde of God or else the decree of a generall Councell which deceitfull wreasting of the state of our question somewhat troubles the vnlearned which can not perceiue hereby that they betray them selues and deface their owne doinges in so rude a defense For who seeth
VVhere did they gather as in Councells to try the trueth of doubtfull matters AS God gaue them respight from your tyrannie they had conference one with an other and as for doubtes they tried them by the worde of God and not by number of voyces as you do in your councells as for the places where they met is nothing at all materiall at Prage at Lyons at Merindol c. 7 How might Christian men iustly offended with some of their brethern haue sought out your officers or Congregation to make complainct of him YOu are void of all reason that in a persecuted church will require all thinges to be so formall and orderly as in time of peace and quietnes I could choke you with putting like cases of your Church If a number of Papistes be carried prisoners into Barbarie or Turkey what Sacraments what discipline what Iudgement haue they among them if one be offended with his brother how shall he come to your officeâ—s or to your Church to complaine In such cases where the ordinary authoritie of the Church is hindred by persecution or otherwise the rule of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. may serue and ought to be obserued If any that is called a brother be a fornicator or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkard or an extorcioner with such one eate not So that if a Christian be iustly offended with his brother he ought to absteine from his company And if he may haue ordinary authoritie he may complaine further 8 Or how if it had liked any man to haue ben baptized of them or to haue receiued the communion of them or to haue bene married of them or to haue ioyned them selues in Fayth and Religion to them how might I say that secret contemptible and vnknowne company be founde in this case HE must haue sought them out as well as he could if he had bene perswaded that they onely ministred the Sacraments Ecclesiasticall rites sincerely according to the word of God it were no great matter for him to find them seing he knew by whom he was so perswaded and of them might also be informed where he should haue them I maruell you are not ashamed to demauÌ„d these questions as though it were materiall to discusse whether of vs hath the Church to haue the Church so manifest that euery man may see it Doe you not remember how many schismes haue bene euen in the popish church more theÌ„ twenty and sometime two Popes at once sometime three sometime fower which of them should a simple Papist take for head of the Church especially in the 22. schisme which lasted 39. yeares one Pope sitting at Rome an other at Auinion either hauing his court either hauing and making Cardinals either cursing other Or in the 23. schisme when the question was of one of the highest pointes in all popery and is not yet throughly decided among them Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councell aboue the Pope In the time of these schismes how might a man haue founde out which was the true Church which was Christes vicare in earth which had the right Sacraments and Sacramentalls to which Popes court should he appeale where did the principall Pastors sit in iudgement c. How should councells be gathered which Pope shoulde confirme their actes c When you are able to aunswere these questions for your owne church then you may better require them of ours As for that secrete contemptible and vnknowne company of our Church in the sight of the world was neuerthelesse manifest glorious and knowen to our Sauiour Christ and the liuely members of his body 9 If therefore you can shew me that any man euer sought Iustice or knowledge of trueth sacrament or faith or any helpe of Saluation at the Protestants secret and close congregation or any other where but of Gods knowen Catholike Church I recant ALthough it be to litle purpose to aunswere this demande because it is no reason to say these thinges hath not bene because chronicles make no mention of them yet that all men maye see how farre you ouershoot your selfe I wil partely satisfie your request Charles the great sought knowledge of the trueth of the sacrament of Bertramus Iohn Duke of Lancaster and diuers other noble men were instructed in our Religion by VVickleue The land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieronym of Prage and sought the sacraments of them Finally you alwayes forget the Greeke church which you do not accompt parte of the Catholike church and yet you can not deny but men haue sought Iustice sacramentes faith c. of it Therefore if a man might trust you vpon your worde you recant The 10. article conteyneth in effect but 2. demandes 1 Moreouer I aske whether for all these many hundreth of yeares or euer els before there was any temporall Prince or Potentate that offered to be vnder God a minister of Iustice and an executor of Christian lawes in the right of your Congregation that euer maintained by lawes Ciuill or other your Faith and Congregation and I recant BEfore the general defection it is an easy matter to name you the Emperours and Princes which both offered to be ministers of Iustice in the right of our church and also mainteyned our faith and Congregation by Ciuill lawes as Constantine the greate Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Archadius Honorius Marcianus Iustinianus Mauricius and diuers other But when the kinges of the earth had committed fornication with the great whore of Babylon as the holy Ghost foresheweth Apoc. 17. and 18. it is no preiudice to our cause if we can not shew any of them that haue mainteined our Religion Yet because you make so gentle an offer vpon the triall of such a matter which is of small force either to the hurt of our cause or the maintenance of yours I will let you vnderstande what I haue reade for this purpose Not doubting but other which haue reade much more and seene more auncient histories than I can shew you a great deale more I passe ouer as to well knowen how many of the Grecian Emperors resisted the setting vp of Images in so much that in the Greeke church to this daye they can abide none in their temples likewise I passe ouer Charles the great who wrote a booke against Images which is in printe who also declared that he liked not the heresie of the reall presence and transubstantiation which in his time was in forging in that he called Bertrame to declare his minde of that matter as appeareth by his booke which is also in printe I will not rehearse those princes that contrary to the Popes lawes defended their priestes that were maried For although these and such like defended some parte of the trueth which we holde against you yet lest you should obiect it was but in some one or two pointes I passe them ouer with silence But VVickleue I wene you will not deny
sermon in such sorte that the common people might vnderstand it and in the 45. Canon they decreed that euery Christian shoulde learne the Creede and the Lorde his prayer Et qui aliter non potuerit vel in sua lingua hoc discat that is And he that can not yet let him learne it in his owne tongue Whereby they declare that they desier to reteine the latine tongue still but rather than the people shoulde be ignorant they commande them to learne their prayers and beleefe in their mother tongue Also by the 43. Canon wherein they iudge that no preeste can saye Masse alone it appeareth that the people commonly vnderstood the latine seruice for they aske how he shoulde saye Dominus vobiscum and admonish the people to lifte vp their heartes and diuers like sayinges where there is none by him but him selfe Nowe if the people vnderstoode not these sayinges it were all one whether they were present or absent Also in the Councell of Rhenes holden in Fraunce about the same time the like decree was made cap. 15. that bishops studie to preache sermons and homelies of the holy fathers so that all men maye vnderstand according to the property of their tongue Finally in the Councell of Laterane holden vnder Pope Innocent the third Anno Dom. 1215. in which Councell transubstantiation was first established the 9. chapter it was plainely decreed that forasmuch as within one citie and diocesse people of diuers languages be mingled together hauing vnder one Faith diuers rites and maners we streightly commande that the bishops of such cities and diocesses prouide able men which according to the diuersitie of their rites and languages celebrate vnto them the diuine seruice and minister the sacramentes instructing them both by worde and example Hereby it appeareth that when the latine tongue was either almost or altogether growen out of the common peoples vnderstandings order was taken that common prayers should be sayed and sacramentes ministred in the mother tongue of euery nation But the bishops which shoulde haue seene it put in execution either negligently omitted it or willingly refused to doe it because it was more for their profit to kepe the people in blinde ignorance So thus I haue shewed that sodenly the tongue of common prayer was not altered 10 Tell me what yeare of our Lorde vnder what Emperour vnder what Pope by whome these thinges were wrought vpon what occasion this marueillous mutation was made WHo can tell the originall of euery blind custome and peuish tradition of euery olde error and foolish fashion it is sufficient to shew that these thinges haue no grounde in the scripture of God they were not taught by Christ and his Apostles nor receiued in the church that followed immediatly after them and then we are bolde to say with Tertullian This preiudice there is against all heresies how soeuer they came vp or when soeuer they sprange vp That is true that was first and that is false that is latter therefore from the beginning it was not vsed to praye for the deade nor to the deade from the beginning common prayer was not in an vnknowen tongue Wherefore prayer for the deade and to the deade with prayer in a strange tongue are false when soeuer they beganne or how long soeuer they continued 11 VVho preached against it what historie maketh mention of it who of all your Pastors preached against it was God his Church so voide of the spirit of Trueth and strength that euen then when it most florished it had none that durst open against â—uch corruption of religion as it entred in and when it might soone haue bene repressed BEfore you demande what yeare the religion of the Papistes came in and whether it came in sodenly and as though we shoulde aunswere that it came in sodainely you demande who preached against it c. This is to fight with your owne shadowe for we say not that it came in sodainely but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espied by the true Pastors especially being earnestly occupied against great heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the cheefe foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Sabellians and such like monsters So when Satan had gotten in one foote by such craftie pollitie he neuer rested vntill he had thrust in his whole bodie with the power of Antichrist 12 If it coulde not shew me then what yeare of the Lorde this mutation was made and who of all the true preachers did with stand this doctrine SO often as you demande one thinge so often must I aunswere after one sorte this mutation was not all in one yeare nor in one hundreth yeares nor in one thousand of yeares for transubstantiation no small article of your religion was not decreed vntill the yeare of God 1215. what preachers haue withstoode your doctrine at diuers times are declared before in the aunswere to the 8. Article 2. demande 13 Or note the name of him that euer first preached any article of our doctrine and if we note you not by their names euery one of your Capitaines and the seuerall errors that they tought and the time and the yeare when they arose against the former receyued trueth and the Councells in which they were orderly condemned if I saye this can be done of your side towarde vs or if we doe it not for improofe of your Church and religion I recant I Haue noted in the answere to the 6. article 3. demande the names of diuers heretikes that first preached diuers articles of your religion and further I note vnto you Pelagius and Coelestius which tought that free will without grace coulde doe somewhat towardes eternall saluation and that grace was geuen according to merite which article you teach also with culler of a distinction De congruo condigno which is a meere cauill for God is as much bounde vnto congruitie as to dignitie or worthinesse and as he can doe nothing against worthinesse no more can he doe any thing against congruitie which is a kinde of Equitie And whereas you bragge to note vnto vs euery one of our Capitaines c. except you note vnto vs the Patriarches Prophets Apostles Euangelistes and Christ himselfe you shall neuer be able to performe that you promise for we teache nothing but the eternall trueth of God wherefore we refuse not to be counted heretikes if you can proue that we holde any one article of faith contrarie to the scripture you may perchaunce note the names of them that preaching the trueth of our doctrine against your receyued errors were accounted of the world for heretikes but you must proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God or els all your labour is in vaine we confesse also that some articles of our doctrine were taught by heretikes as there was neuer no heresie which had not many thinges common with true Religion but yet in
into two Lutherans and Zuinglians As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament and differ onely in ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Caluine and they that be of his iudgement agree plainly with Zuinglius so that of fiue names there remaine but two sortes differing in opinion whereunto you ioyne the Swenkefeldians and Anabaptistes Now to your question these be not all of one Church for the Swenkefeldians Anabaptists be detestable heretiks but the Lutherans Zuingliās as it pleaseth you to cal thē are of one true church although they differ in one opinion cōcerning the Sacramēt for although the one affirme a real presence the other deny it yet they both cōsent in this that the body of Christ is receiued spiritually not corporally with the hart and not with the mouth Wherfore this dissention is not so great though there be error on the one side but that they may be both of the Church of Christ as well as S. Cyprian the Martyr and all the Bishops of Africa and a great many of Asia differing with Stephanus bishop of Rome and the rest of his opinion in rebaptizing such as were baptized by heretiks 2 And if either they can proue vnto me that these being of such diuersitie in faith and religion make one Church WE haue alwaies abhorred the heresies of the Anabaptistes Libertines Swenkefeldians Dauidians Seruitians and all such But that Luther Zuinglius may be both of one Church differing onely in one opinion of the Sacrament is declared before 3 Or that each of their sects may giue saluation to their folowers being so disagreable one with an other in high points of our Religion SAluation is the gift of God and not in the power of any company or sect of men but this we affirme that out of that Church whereof we count Luther and Zuinglius notwithstanding their diuerse opinions which is but in one matter of the Sacrament to be members there is no saluation 4 Or that I should beleue all these rather then the Catholike Church or one of these more then another all making such a bold chalenge of the truth and Gospell NO man requireth you to beleue all these but the true Catholike Church onely Neither doe we requite you to beleue any one company of men more then an other but to beleue the trueth before falshood Now which of them hath the truth that they all brag of you must search in the word of truth desiring the spirite of truth that you may vnderstand and beleue the truth and so without doubt you shall come to the knowledge of the truth and of the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth 5 Let the Protestants of all these kindes put their heades together and shew me a reason of these thinges and with all let them among them selues agree to what sorte of these sectes they woulde haue me and I will recant SVch is your impudencie in this matter as in all other that you woulde make men beleue that the Anabaptistes Swenkefeldians Libertins and other abhominable heretikes be Protestantes But it is well that you can make none but fooles thinke so as for the Protestantes they neede take no great deliberation to aunswere your demandes but you had more neede to laye your heades together to reconcile the Thomistes Albertistes Ockamistes Scotistes Reales and Nominalls which be all sectes of Papistes and especially your Canonistes and diuines about the articles of your religion that is whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councel aboue the Pope Whether the Pope may erre and not the Councell or whether the Councell maye erre and not the Pope These two the Popes determination and the Councells determination being the rules of trueth in your religion and not agreed vpon how can any trueth be certeine in your Church As for Luther and Zuinglius they agree vpon one rule of trueth that is the worde of God and differ onely for the applying or laying of this rule yet but in one matter that not the greatest But you Papists some holding of the Pope and some of the Councell as rules of truth can haue no ground nor certainty thereof Therefore if you woulde haue me or any man to be of your belefe First determine how I shal know when I am in a right beleefe one sayeth if the councell alloweth it an other sayeth if the Pope alloweth what shall I doe when one of these is against an other yea when one Pope is against an other and one councell against an other shall I thinke that trueth changeth so often as they change Moreouer when one Pope graunteth that the councell is aboue the Pope and that the Pope maye erre Likewise one councell graunteth that the Pope is aboue the councell and that the councell may erre as it hath bene within the 200. yeares the councells of Constance and Basill determined that the councell was aboue the Pope and that the Pope maye erre Contrariwise the councell of Ferraria and Florence determined that the Pope was aboue the councell and that the councell might erre Martinus 5. the Pope chosen by the councell of Constance was of the same iudgement that the councell But Eugenius 4. that gathered the councell of Ferraria and Florence against the councell of Basill was of the contrarie iudgement Nowe I woulde saye he were a wittie fellow that coulde reconcile this geare together For if he be a Canonist that holdeth this opinion that the Pope can not erre whē the Pope him self graunteth that he may erre which waye shall he turne him selfe For if this proposition be true the Pope can not erre then this is true also that the Pope may erre for if he can not erre he can not erre in saying so And if the Pope erred in saying he coulde erre where he can not erre then this proposition is false the Pope can not erre so one proposition shal be both true and false which is impossible Likewise if he holde that hilde that the councell can not erre and the councell it selfe confesseth it that it may erre Gentle maister N. reconcile me these together which concerne a case that hath bene in practise and still is in the Papistrie and maye here trouble a mans conscience that woulde beleue your church and if he haue any wit restraine him for euer comming into your church If you can not vntie this knot nor winde your selfe out of this maze vnlesse you will be still obstinate it were wisedome for you to recant The 18. article hath but one demande I demande whether they were euer of the true Catholike church which either tooke to them selues newe names of religion according to the calling of any secte maister or liked not so well the name of Catholike or Christian as of their seuerall teachers as to be called of Arius Arians or of Caluine Caluinistes or of Luther Lutheranes
of the Arrians and being brought vp by them had learned that article to beleue the Catholike church which the Arrians would expound to be them selues if afterward by God his helpe this man vnderstood that the church of the Arrians was not the catholike church as he was taught it was but that Athanasius and a few other that were banished and persecuted were the true Catholike church he was bounde to leaue the Arrians commonly called the church and to ioyne him selfe with the secret banished hidde and persecuted church of Christ. But as for your Popish church in that time of blindenesse and error taught not the people that article nor any other but kept them backe from the knowledge as well of that article as of all other thinges that were necessary to their saluation for you taught them nothing els but to pronounce and that full il fauoredly like popingeys certeine latine wordes which they vnderstoode no more than stockes or stones So that the people had no instruction of you no not of the name of God in many places but that they receiued by vncertaine talke of their parentes as it were from hande to hande for how many thousand parishes are there in Englande that within these 60. yeares woulde declare that they neuer hearde sermon in their life As for that they hearde of their seruice they learned as much of it as of the ringing of their belles which was a sounde without vnderstanding Therefore you may be ashamed to speake of teaching the people their belefe and all thinges necessary for saluation when you haue counted it heresie to learne their creede in English or to reade the scripture in English in which is conteined all thing necessary to be knowen for euerlasting saluation Finally because you requier me to shew you that the Christian people of those dayes were bounde to beleue any other church than that which taught them the article of the church and baptised them I trow I will so shew it you that for both your eares you dare not deny it how saye you The Christian people of the Greeke church which were taught by the Greeke church that article of the church and by the same Greeke church were baptised whether ought they to beleue any other church but the Greeke church If you say no then you acknowledge the Greeke church to be the true church which denieth the Popes authoritie if you saye yea Then you are welcome home you recant The 22. article although it be very confuse yet it conteyneth in effect 3. demandes 1 I aske also whether any man for the space of that 1000. yeres of blindenes could be saued out of that secrete and small Church which they say was the true Church if they aunswer me there might be some saued with our Sacraments and in the Communion or fellowship of the Papistes out of the Protestants Church then there was a way to heauen out of Gods Church if they say that none could be saued by our Sacraments out of their close Church then all men yong and old perished for those yeares without any hope of mercy because they could not vnite them selues and be incorporate to that company and Congregation whereof they neuer neither hearde nor coulde by any meanes surmise Therefore let any man aliue proue vnto me that either any man could out of the true Church be saued NO man aliue that knoweth what the true Church meaneth will say that any man can be saued out of the true Church for he that is not a member of the body of Christ caÌ„ by no meanes receiue any benefit of Christ to his saluation Therefore how long so euer the true Church were hidden whether it were a thousand yeres as you beare men in hand that we should say or two thousand yeares it is not materiall this is certeyne that out of this Church none could be saued and though you count it smal as in deede in respect of the world it is but a small flocke and fewe are elected and fewe finde the streit gate of life Luke 12. Matth. 7. 20. yet is the number of it greater then mans eye commonly can discerne As when Elias thought that he only had bene left alone of the true Church God answered that he had yet reserued 7000. that neuer bowed their knee to Baal 1. Reg. 19. And as Esay declareth when the people shoulde be almost all destroyed yet a remnant should be saued which though it seemed to be small yet it should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes Esa. 10. and though it shal be like a gathering of grapes when vintage is ended or the shaking of an oliue tree when men thinke they haue left noâ—hing vppon it yet there be two or three in the toppe amonge the boughes foure or fiue vnder the leaues in the highest braÌ„ches Esay 17. 24. 2 Or that any other company could be knowne for the true and onely Church but our common Catholike societie THe true Catholike Church was neuer so secrete or hidden but it might be knowne of all those that had eyes to see it whose hartes were lightened with the spirite of God and were enstructed by the worde of God that they might vnderstande the trueth and knowe the spouse of Christ from the common strompet of Antichrist 3 Or that all men were damned for a thousand yeares togither because they coulde not finde nor surmise of any other Church then that which practiseth all holy functions which Christ left for our saluation in the world and I recant WE take not vpon vs to medle with God his iudgments whom he condemneth for what causes further then the word of God teacheth vs namely that as many as haue not beleued in the onely sonne of God are condemned for their vnbeliefe other secret causes we remit to his secrete counsell and knowledge And wheras you say that the popish church practiseth all holy functions that Christ left for the saluation of his Church it is most false for first you doe not preach remission of sinnes in the bloode of Christ onely for either you preach not all or else you preach remission of sinnes in any thing rather then the onely merites of Christ as in mens owne merites workes of supererogation pardons masses beggarly ceremonies as holy water auriculer confession c. Secondly you minister not the Sacraments purely according to Christ his institution but either corrupt and defile them with mans traditioÌ„s as you do Baptisme or else cleane chauÌ„ge the vse of them as in the Lordes Supper which you make a Sacrifice an idoll a Priestes breakfast and defraude the people of the one halfe of the sacrament as though you were wiser then he that instituted it in both kindes Thirdly discipline you haue conuerted into tyranny and couetousnes reteyning nothing but the name of it alone Wherefore seeing you exercise no holy function after Christ his institution but cleane contrary to the same and doe
like a foxe than a doue 5 Domus Dei. THe true Church in which we are is the house or familie of God which he gouerneth by his stewardes the sincere preachers of his word The popish church is the Synagoge of Satan where the preaching of God his word is despised and the word it selfe made subiect to mens determinations and authorities 6 Columna veritatis SAinct Paule by this title doth admonish Pastors and Preachers how great a burthen and charge they susteyne that the truth of the Gospell can not be continued in the world but by their ministerie in the church of God which is the piller and stay of truth this their duety true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to set forth the Gospell and to preach the truth But the popish church which is not the vpholder and mainteyner but the ouerthrower oppressor of the truth compelling it to giue place to falshood and error can by no equitie chalenge this name to be called the piller and stay of truth but rather of falshood and lyes 7 Ciuitas Dei. OVr Church is the citie of God builded vpon the foundations of the Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles Iesus Christ being the head corner stone ruled by the lawes of God onely reteyning that forme of regiment and common wealth that Christ him selfe hath prescribed The Church of Antichrist is founded vppon seuen hilles Apoc. 17. vpon the traditions dreames phantasies and deuises of men refuseth to be ruled onely by the lawes of God hath cleane altered and changed the forme of regiment prescribed by God set vp an other full of Antichristian pride crueltie and tyrannie Therefore in no wise may be called the citie of God But Babylon the mother of fornication Sodoma and Egypt where our Lord is daily crucified in his members 8 Ciuitas supra montem posita THis saying of our Sauiour Christ in the 5. of Mathew is not properly meant of the Church but of the Apostles their successors the ministers of the Church euen as these sayinges You are the salte of the earth you are the light of the worlde A citie builded vppon an hill can not be hidden neither is a candle lighted to be set vnder a bushell By which wordes he teacheth them aboue all other men to looke diligently to their life and conuersation for as they excell in place and dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vppon them As a citie builded vppon an hill must needes be seene of all them that come neare it so they being placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men As a candle is not lighted but to be set on a candlesticke to giue light vnto all them that come into the house euen so a Minister and Preacher of God his word is not ordeyned for any other ende but that he should shine before men in true doctrine and good maners Hereby it appeareth how fondly some Papists would seeme to proue out of this place that the Church must alwayes be visible when the wordes are not applyed to the Church but to the ministers thereof I know some of the doctors expound this place otherwise but the context of the wordes doth plainely confute their error 9 Hortus conclusus AS a gardē or orchard walled in or inclosed with hedges is more estemed of the owner thē great broad fieldes and the trees and flowers that growe therein are preserued and kept more safely then such as are wilde and grow abroad right so the Church of Christ seuered from the rest of the world though it be small in compasse yet is it more estemed of him then all the world beside But the Church of Rome which will not be enclosed with the walls or hedges of God his word but wandreth at large after her owne inuentions can not be called the inclosed garden of Christ. 10 Fons signatus THe true Church of Christ is also compared to a spring or founteine which is shutte in or sealed vppe from the prophane waters of worldly vanities ministring the water of life to all the children of god But as for the popish church which ishueth out of the bottomles lake is a stincking puddle of all false doctrine and heresie whereof the whore beareth a cupp full Apoc. 17. out of which all nations haue dronk Apoc. 18. So farre is it that she should be a well sealed vp by Christ. 11 Sponsa Agni THe description of the Spouse of the Lambe set forth in S. Iohns Reuelation doth in all pointes most aptly agree vnto our holy Church and congregation But the popish church which is not content to be clothed in that white shining silke which is the Iustificatiō of Saincts made white in the blood of the Lambe but with the filthy ragges of mans righteousnes Esay 64. is no Spouse of Christ but the darling of the deuill 12 Mulier amicta Sole NO place in all the scripture doth more plainely set forth the estate of our Church than this 12. of the Apocalyps She is clothed with the sunne of righteousnesse Iesus Christ which is her bewtie She treadeth vnder her feete the Moone of mutabilitie changeablenesse and inconstancie she is crowned with 12. starres which is the doctrine of the 12. Apostles the worde of god She is alwaies fruitefull and persecuted by the deuill and his members but yet by Christ defended protected and prouided for in all daungers and aduersities But the church of Rome is that whore of Babylon clothed in purple and scarlet golde precious stones and perles described Apoc. 17. sitting vpon the beast with seuen heades which are the seuen hilles and is the great cytie that had dominion ouer the kinges of the earth 13 Habitatio fratrum in vnum ALthough this saying be not proper nor peculiar vnto the Church onely but common to euery societie and fellowship of men that continue in godly vnity yet doth it most aptly agree vnto our Church which holdeth one vnity of doctrine faith and religion of christ But the Popish church how so euer it bragge of vnity because their agreement is not in verity can not be that cohabitation of brethren which the Psalmist doth so highely commende 14 Mons Dei mons pinguis THe hill which Dauid so extolleth Psal. 68. is the mount Zyon which though it be small yet it excelleth the high and frutefull hill of Basan because God had chosen it to place his tabernacle therupon euen so the church of Christ though it surmount not ouer kingdomes in worldly dignities and commodities yet to such as Dauid was the litle hill of Zyon is more worth than all the seuen hilles of Rome 15 Sacra anchora IN all the Scripture the Church is not compared to an holy Anchore but in the sixt to the Hebrues Fayth in God his promises is compared vnto a sure stedfast Anchore of our soules vpon which Faith seeing our Church is builded we may truely say that in our
Peace and reconciliation wrought by Christ whereby we knowing that we are iustified by faith haue peace with god Rom. 5. But neither of these Peaces are in the church of Rome for there is dissention in doctrine and their doctrine dissenteth from the truth as for the peace of conscience is altogether vnknowen vnto Papistes euen as the iustification of Faith by which onely it is obteined 31 Domus Refugij THe house of Refuge or defence may also be applied to the Church out of which is no saluation And in whose bosome it becoÌ„meth euery man to rest which shall looke for the refuge and defence of god But God forbidde that any man should seeke for refuge or helpe at your church which must be ouerthrowen with such violence as a great mylstone that is cast into the Sea and shal be founde no more Apoc. 18. 32 Domus Veritatis AS our church is the piller and staie of trueth so is she also the house of Trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the Trueth it selfe Iesus Christ and his most holy Scripture In which this trueth is signed and testified But your Synagoge is the house of lyes where beside mens doctrines and traditions which are nothing but lyes there be also leaden legendes of lyes Promptuaries of lyes Festiuals of lyes and other infinite bookes of lyes 33 Societas Sanctorum HOw shoulde not our Church be the societie and fellowship of Sainctes which is sanctified and purged by the bloode of Christ which hath receiued the spirite of sanctification by which we crie Abba Father which is guided and gouerned by the most sacred and holy worde of god And how can the Popish church be the fellowship of Sainctes when she refuseth the sanctification of Christ his one oblation and sacrifice as sufficient to make them perfect which scorneth at the spirite of sanctification which can abide any thing rather than to be directed onely by God his holy worde Finally which acknowledgeth no sainctes but such as the most vnholy Pope for money doth canonize and make sainctes Proue vnto me therefore that these excellent and propre callinges can agree to any disordered companie or Congregation or to any vnknowen society of men but onely to the true Church of Christ spred throughout the whole worlde by Christes his promise and by vertue of his spirit continued in truth and grace from falshood sence Christes time and I recant AS many of these excellent names as in the worde of God or the doctors agreeing with the worde of God are propre or perteyning to the true Church of Christ so many haue I proued to be propre and perteyning to our most holy and well ordered CongregatioÌ„ And moreouer that they can in no wise be rightly applied to that most abhominable Idolatrous and disordered Synagoge of Rome which is vtterly departed from the faith geuing heede to spirites of error and doctrines of deuills being so liuely painted forth and euen pointed forth by the scripture to be that Antichristian church whereof the holy Ghost prophesieth that no man except he will wilfully be blinde can be ignorant thereof so that if you be not starke blinde and geuen vp into a reprobate sence when you consider these thinges you will recant Let any man therefore aliue answer directly and plainly without colour or fraude of wordes and vnprofitable digressions to the foresayd or any of the foresayd demandes and I shall willingly leaue the knowne Church playne way of Saluation and wander in the woodes to seeke after them and their congregation IF you had not added this conclusion we might haue conceaued some hope that vpon further instruction in such matters as troubled your conscience you would haue ben contented to be reformed after God his worde and good counsell But now you declare that you are so obstinatly bent that what so euer be proued against you you will not receiue it as truth but yeld vnto it perforce As for me Although I know there are very many which with more learning and eloquence coulde haue aunswered your demandes yet being such as they are I submitte my selfe to the iudgement of all them that be learned and godly minded whether I haue not directly and plainely without colour or fraude of wordes without all digression aunswered the same so that I doubt not but as many as are tractable and stayed vpon these doubtes onely may be fully perswaded by these not very long and yet sufficient Answers THE ENDE 1 A DEFENSE AND DECLARATION OF THE CATHOLIKE Churches doctrine touching Purgatory and prayers for the soules departed By VVILLIAM ALLEN Maister of Arte and student in Diuinitie 1 AN OVERTHROW AND CONFVTATION OF THE POPISH Churches doctrine touching Purgatory and prayers for the deade By W. FVLKE Doctor in Diuinitie 2 Mortuo ne prohibeas gratiam Eccle. 7. Hinder not the departed of grace and fauour 2 Such liberalitie as by any meanes may extende vnto them in burying their bodies honoring there memorie helping there posteritie TO THE READER 3 A Friend of mine very studious of the truth and zelous of Gods house one that learned to beleue first and then sought to vnderstand afterward which I take to be the naturall order of a christian schoole where faith must in most matters direct reason and leade the way to vnderstanding asked of me as of one whome he hartely loued and knew to be studious in such matters by my trade of life vpon what groundes the Churches doctrine and the Christian peoples faith of Purgatory and prayers for the departed stoode I aunswered him then presently as I could and shortly after as his further request was in writing somewhat more at large The which my doing though it was both rude and short yet he so measured it either by loue as it commonly happeth or else by a singular facilitie whereby he misliketh nothing that is meant well that he made it common to many moe then I would my selfe For though I was well contented that the simple people or any other should take profite or pleasure by my paine yet â—onsidering the matter to be full of difficultie and to reaâ—h to Gods iudgements in the world to come I called to my minde the saying of Nebridius who as S. Augustine reporteth of him with whom he was very familiar being much studious and inquisitiue of the secret poâ—ntes of our faith would be excedingly offended to heare a man aske of a matter of importaunce a briefe declaration his saying was that he loued not a short answere to a long question VVhereby I was me thought in a maner admonished that my treatise though it satisfied my friend and displeased not other yet could not written both hastely and briefly serue so long and large a matter I did feare with all to enter in this my lacke of yeares iudgement and knowledge into the search of such secretes as I knâ—w by that light vowe that I made of the matter before the orderly proceeding in
chastisement of our peace was layd vpon him but we say with the prophet Lord if thou looke straightly to our sinnes who were able to abide it but with thee there is mercy therefore thou shalt be feared Psa. 130. But for a stronger proofe there is alleged a place out of Apoc. 18. looke howe high Babylon did exalt her self how delicatly she liued geue her so much woe torment againe Now I promise you I will say M. Allen is a cunning Logitian if he can draw a good argument out of this place to proue that God punisheth his children to satisfy his iustice The whorish church of Rome is iustly condemned to eternal torments for her pride voluptuousnes there ore Gods children are punished to aunswere the iustice of god The people of God are commauÌ„ded to reward Babylon according to her wickednes and to spare her no more then she sâ—ared them in her tyrannye What pertaineth this to the afflictions of Gods Saincts But because this matter toucheth the point he will tary longer with his aduersary demaund why God taketh punishmeÌ„t in this world for sinne already remitted And then he will coÌ„pel him to answere for satisfying of his iustice which if it be not performed in this life it must be in the life to come This is a fine kinde of reasoning M. Allen that you will enforce your aduersary both to aunswere you also to aunswere what you list then you are good enough for him Is this the logicke of Louayne Nay you haue a finer reason then this punishment iudgement for sinne properly appertayneth not to this worlde but to the next life Then would I grossely inferre therfore the temporal paines that the godly suffer in this world be not properly punishments for sinne But it is of mercy and grace that they suffer in this life that I graunt but not to satisfie for their sinnes Of which matter you doe vntruely call Saynct Paule to witnes 1. Cor. 11. as wheÌ„ he is hearde to speake him selfe it will appeare manifestly If we would iudge our selues sayth he we should not be iudged but when we are iudged we are chastised of the Lorde because we shoulde not be condemned with the worlde Here is chastisement to amendement or obstinacy to condemnation but neuer a word sounding toward purgatory here is a manifest difference betwene the iudgement which God exerciseth towards his children which is chastismeÌ„t to auoyd damnation that iudgement by the which the impenitent world is condemned But in the next life you say there is no place for our working but sufferance alone c. what then shal other mens workes auaile when our owne will not serue and yet it is a matter not so fully agreed vpon among you papistes whether a man may merite in purgatory But to take your owne affirmation and not to charge you with dissention of other men because you dissent so much from your selfe who so weigheth the grounde of your first booke must needes confesse that it ouerturneth your second booke if the matter of your second booke be true then is the ground of your first booke false For the ground of purgatory you would make the iustice of God which requireth punishment for sinnes committed in this life but how can that stand if God accept the worke of other men to release them that should suffer by his iustice if these workes wil answere the matter theÌ„ there is no such necessity of purgatory to satisfie his iustice So that one of your bookes is a prety confutatioÌ„ of the other As for the saying of Augustine helpeth you nothing at all onely he sheweth that God punisheth not all sinnes in this world because many are reserued to eternall torments But howe vncertaine his iudgement was concerning purgatory in that Enchiridion ad Laurentium he him selfe most plainly declareth Tale aliquid etiam post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est vtrum ita sit quaeri potest It is not incredible that such a thing may be after this life and whether it be so or no it may be doubted and either it may be found or else it may be hidde that some faithfull should passe through a certaine purgatory fier c. cap. 69. By which wordes it appeareth that Sathan was but then laying his foundations of purgatory had not yet finished this worke by a great deale and that this was not so graue a doctrine nor so constant a fayth of the fathers as M. Allen boasteth of in the former cap. Fol. 25. 4 But let vs steppe a foote further and yet so much nearer the matter and note well whether we may finde any case where the payment for sinnes remitted passeth the bondes of this life and so required in the next that by playne dealing and orderly proceeding we may the better instruct the simple confound the aduersary and make truth stand vpon it selfe Consider then with me that our first father pardoned of his sinne as I proued before was punished for the same with him all the iust of those dayes not onely in the time of this present mortall life but many hundreth yeares after their departure For whose deliuery the Catholike church holdeth and our Crede teacheth also that our Maister Christ descended downe into hell And that no man here be deceaued he must vnderstand that it was no smal punishment to be banished so many worlde 's togither from the land of the lyuing and to lacke the ioyfull fruition of heauens blisse which of it selfe but that it was not eternall had bene more then all temporall paynes that may be suffered And this to be one of those miseries which our first fathers disobedience wrought and so to be payne for sinne I thinke euery wise man will confesse Yea it was the greatest dominion of sinne that could be for the ouerthrow of which Christ him selfe vouchsafed to enter into the land of darkenes It is called of the Prophet lacus sine aqua a lake without water And of the Apostle Carcer a prison VVhere the fathers be also named vincti tui thyne that were bounde VVhereby we must vnderstand that Christ had a flocke imprisoned and bound for the debt of sinne in an other worlde But that we may make inuincible proofe that this their captiuity was a iust inioyned plage and penalty for sinne we must report what we finde in auncient Irenaeus of this matter And he affirmeth that Adam was iudged and condemned for his wilfull fall till Christes comming in these wordes Necesse fuit Dominum ad perditam ouem venientem tandem despositionis recapitulationem facientem suum plasma requirentem illum ipsum hominem saluare qui factus fuerat secundum imaginem similitudinem eius id est Adam implentem tempora eius condemnationis quae facta fuerat propter inobedientiam And straight after Solutus est condemnationis vinculis qui captiuus ductus fuerat
incredulity to blaspheme these peculiar steppes of the spirite S. Cyprian complaineth of such misbeleuers in his time that woulde not agree to the trueth after especiall reuelations had of the same VVhich kinde of men he noteth in the latter ende of an epistle by these wordes Quanquam sciam omnia ridicula visiones ineptas quibusdam videri sed vtique illis qui malunt contra sacerdotes credere quam sacerdoti Sed nihil mirum quando de Ioseph fratres sui dixerunt ecce somniator ille venit Although sayth he I know right well howe litle accompte they make of visions which they esteeme as mere trieftes But yet it is such onely that had rather beleeue against then with Gods priestes And no meruaill that is seeing good Iosephs owne brethern saide by him in mockage Lo yender comes the dreamer So did they scoffe at him because he had more familiarity with the spirite of God then the other had 4 Now followeth a large and needelesse apologie of visions and reuelations the doctrine of which is briefely and plainely set forth in the worde of God what so euer is consonant to the word of God is to be receiued that which is not agreable therewith is to be detested although not a man from purgatory but an angell from heauen were the bringer of it Then seeing the doctrine of purgatory is blasphemous against the merites of Christes death though all those fables of visions that are fayned to defende it were true stories yet are we nothing moued with them I passe ouer the impudency of this man which is not ashamed to compare so many thousand fables or illusions of Sathan as are reported to the maintaining of purgatory to the reuelation of S. Paule and the Apocalypse of S. Iohn or the appering of Moses and Elias with christ They may be in deede a great nombre of them not vnlike to that spirite of Samuell which was raised by the witche which as Augustine affirmeth and M. Allen dare not simply deny was the spirite of the Deuill him selfe 5 Now as the ioyes of heauen Paradise with the tormeÌ„t of sinners and other secrets of the next life haue bin straungly represented to some one or other in all ages by sundry meanes most expedient to our saluation and most seemely to the wisedom and will of the worker so certainely no article was euer with more force of spirite or more graue authority set forth sence the beginning of Christian religion then this one of Purgatory Neuer nation was conuerted to the faith but it had this trueth not only taught by worde but by miracle also confirmed And namely in that aboundant floode of faith when it pleased God almost at once to spreade his name amongest all these contryes it was thought most necessary to his diuine wisedome together with the true worship of his name to plant in all faithfull mens heartes the awe and necessary feare of that greeuous torment for the reuenge and iust iudgement of wicked life This greeuous payne was vttered by the very sufferers them selues as we may see in the notable histories of Paschasius and Iustus reported by S. Gregories owne mouth This greeuous punishment was agayne declared by Furseus who as the reuerent Bede reporteth had the beholding of the eternall blesse the euerlasting miâ—ery and the temporall payne of the next life Drichelmus also by the ordinaunce of God taken from amongst mortall men into the state of the next world after he had seene likewise the terrible iudgement of God practised euen vpon the elect was restored to life againe in our owne nation and was a witnesse worthy of all credit of this same truth not only by his word wherof he was so sparing all his life time after that he would not vtter this same mistery but with singular care and respect of the persons intent that asked him thereof but namely by passing great penaunce and incredible chastising of his body which proceded of the sensible knowledge that he had of the paynes prepared And being asked sometime as holy Bede sayth why he so tormented him selfe in the willing toleration of extreme heate or contrary cold both of frost and snow he made aunswere simply and shortly Frigidiora ora ego vidi austeriora ego vidi Ah maisters I haue seene colder I haue seene sharper Meaning by the vnspeakeable paines of Purgatory The whole history of his visions with many the like may be reade in the Ecclesiasticall history of our owne nation written by as faithfull a witnesse as euer was borne in our lande of such vertue that he woulde begile no man willingly of so great wisedome that he woulde report no tale nor triefle rashly of such grace and learning that he was well able to disâ—erne a false fable and superstitious illusion from a true and diuine reuelation For as it were foly and mere vanity to geue credit to euery spirite so to condemne a spirite or reuelation or any worke of Gods finger approued by the Church of God in which there hath euer bene the gifte of discerning spirites it is properly a sinne against the holy Ghost And because euery man hath not that gifte as I woulde not counsell any man ouer lightely to geue credit to euery priuat spirite and peculiar vision because they may come of wicked intentes and sinister motions so I thinke it were good in feare reuerence and humility to commit the discerning of such thinges to the spirite and iudgement of Gods Church VVith the belefe of euery peculiar mans phantasie we are not charged with humble submission of our whole life and belefe to the Church of Christ there are we especially charged And because there is nothing reported either in the workes of S. Gregory or in Bede or in Damascen or in any other the like concerning the paines either of the elect or the damned in the next life but as much hath bene vttered before by all the holy and learned fathers in great agony of minde and feare of the saide iudgement we may be the more bolde to thinke the best or rather we are bounde to thinke the best of that spirite which so conformably agreeth with the doctrine of the Church and faith of all the fathers There can no man say more of Purgatory nor more plainely then S. Ambrose being in a maner a frade him selfe of wasting away in that horrible tormeÌ„t none more effectually then S. Augustine that confesseth there is no earthely paine comparable vnto it none more fearefully then Eusebius Emissenus who termeth it skaulding waues of fire none more pithely then Paulinus that calleth those places of iudgements Ardentes tenebras burning darknesse More peculiarly may the circumstances and condicion of that state by God be reueled but the trueth thereof can not be more plainely declared nor better proued These babes feared no bugges I warraunt you neither picked they Purgatory out of Scipio his dreame
the dead or any point of purgatory 6 I will declare what they practised for their dearest frends priuately and what the Churches of most notable Nations vsed for all deceased in Christes faith in their publike seruice openly I shall proue vnto you that the practise of suffrages and Sacrifice for the deade isshued downe to vs from the Apostles dayes 6 You shall not proue that either in publicke or priuate prayers the deade were commended otherwise then by waye of thankes geuing for their departure or that any suffrages or sacrifice was offered for them by the Apostles or their lawefull successors or many yeares after the Apostles times 7 I shall pointe you to the first father of the contrary doctrine and his principall abettours in such troublesome times at such marchants were to be founde Ye shall see them knowen amongest all the holy of their time by the name of heretikes 7 You shall shew no heretike that denied your doctrine but I will shew you other heretikes before him that allowed it 8 You shall see their doctrine improued and them selues condemned by the graue iudgement of Councells both Generall prouinciall for heretikes If any of them all can say any thing to the contrary of that which we vpon so good groundes mainteine he shall be aunswered with no worse then the very wordes of the holy auncient writers Finally if any other thinges be necessary beside for the declaration of this matter to the simple or for proofe against our aduersaries they shall not be omitted as occasioÌ„ by course and fall of the matter may be geuen All which pointes being auouched and not proued shall condemne me of arrogancy But both auouched and fully proued they shall deserue any reasonable mans consent and beare testimony of the aduersaries impudency here and witnesse of their contempte of Gods approued trueth in the worlde to come 8 How vayne your bragge is of generall counsels it appeareth by this that with in fouretene hundreth yeares after Christ you can finde none to serue your turne vntill you come to the councells Florens and Trent whereof the one was held in our grandfathers dayes the other within these 20. yeares your prouinciall councells shal be aunswered by as good prouinciall councells as they are And that which I haue to say in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient errour so that fewe of the latter writers there are but they shewe them selues to be infected therewith yet hath it not such an vniuersall consent of all writers but that I shall be able by Gods grace to shew that the most auncient and nearest to the Apostles tyme receiued it not and that they which of later time admitted it had neither any ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing nor any certainty of faith to assure their conscience which when it is found in the ende as it is now sayd in the beginning your arrogant boasting and impudent lying togither with the falshoode of your opinions shall be manifest to all men That there be certaine sinnes vvhich may be forgeuen in the next life and that the deserued punishement for the same may be eased or vtterly released before the extreme sentence be to the vtmost executed CAP. I. 1 ANd first that sinnes may be pardoned in the next worlde that were not in this life forgeuen our Sauiours owne wordes do teach vs written in the Gospell of S. Matthew thus Ideò dico vobis omne peccatum blasphemia remittetur hominibus spiritus autem blasphemia non remittetur Et quicuÌ„que dixerit verbum contra filium hominis remittetur ei qui autem dixerit contra spiritum sanctum non remittetur ei neque in hoc saeculo neque in fuâ—uro I tell you that all maner of sinne and blasphemy shall be forgeuen vnto men but the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be forgeueÌ„ And who so euer shall speake against the sonne of man it shall be forgeuen him But if he speake against the holy Ghost it shall neither be pardoned in this worlde nor in the worlde to come The same thing in sense hath Marke and Luke affirming that such offense shall neuer be forgeuen The which worde Neuer S. Marke expresseth thus in aeternuÌ„ non habet remissionem he shall not haue pardoÌ„ as you would say in all eternity by which he may plainely seeme to reache further then the limites and borders of this worlde for the remission of sinne And this speach hath as much pith and proper force in it as S. Matthewes who expressely distinctly and belike as Christ spake it vttereth that sense of the eternity which passeth the measure of worldely time by these words Neither in this world nor yet in the world to come And for that cause S. Marke sayth Reus erit aeterni delicti he shall be gilty of an eternall faulte signifying that in some case a man might perhaps not speede of a pardon in this life yet may obteine it in the next But for that horrible blasphemy he in a maner dischargeth the offender of all hope of remission either in this life or in the next that is to come VVhich forme of wordes can neither be founde in scripture nor in mans common talke to haue any place in such thinges as extend no further but to the transitory time of our life for in those matters it had bene vsually and truely spoken it shall neuer happen in this world And therfore instructing vs that sinnes or the paine due vnto sinnes may either be released in this worlde or in the worlde to come he followeth that phrase and forme of wordes in which man might well conceiue the reache of remission and pardoning of sinnes farre to passe the compasse of our time and life CAP. I. 1 YOu were as good to kindle a fire out of yâ—e and snow as to goe about to frame your fiery forge of purgatory out of this place The meaning of our Sauiour Christ is so playne his wordes so expresse that no reasonable man can gather any errour out of them For vndoubtedly the errour of purgatory was first inuented before this place was drawne vnto it So is there no heresie so absurd which Satan putteth into the head of wicked men but it may finde some sound of wordes in so many bookes of the holy Scriptures that by peruerse wit may be wrested vnto it But the doctrine of Gods truth and all articles of our beliefe are plainly taught in the Scripture either by manifest words or by necessary conclusion and argument which by no subtilty of SataÌ„ or his instrumeÌ„ts may be auoided or deluded And this is the difference betwene heresie and truth when they both apeale to the authorities of the Scripture Truth as she hath her foundation in the Scriptures and
and them selues nurtered to holde vp their handes and knocke their breastes must yet needes meruail how these outward formes came to so holy an vse further whether the Christian people were not sclaundered for worshipping and doing sacrifice to Ceres and Bacchus when the wicked infidells sawe their behauiour towardes the holy Hoste whether it was not vsed in working of miracles in driuing away deuills in daungerous times of tempests of trauelling of sickenesse and in other necessities VVell these be plaine practises no heretike can denie but they haue bene so vsed of the whole Church of God with many such other like in that holy action which can not in any case stande with bare breade or any other way of presence but onely the proper true and bodily presence of Christes owne person A doctors wordes may be misconstrued may be picked out of place may be writhen and wastred by false teachers but a mans example can not lightly be misconstrued And therefore heretikes whose purpose is alwayes by sutteltie to deceiue the simple will neuer make discours by the practise of the Church or exercise and example of the auncient learned men through out the Church of Christ hauing enough for their meaning to racke a place or two out of the fathers whole workes that may seeme to the ignoraunt to set forth their errour So if thou woulde knowe whether that place that our aduersaries impudently doe alleage out of Gregory the great against the soueraignty of the see of Rome was in deede written for their seditious purpose beholde the practise of the same father and thou shal s finde him selfe exercise iurisdiction at the very same time when he wrote it in all prouincies Christianed through out the worlde both by excommunication of byshoppes that gouerned not well by often citation of persons in extreme prouincies by many appeales made vnto him by continuall legacies to other nations sent either to conuert them to the faith or to gouerne in their doubtfull affaires and by all other exercise of spirituall iurisdiction Is it not now a very false suggestion to the poore people that this blessed man in so plaine vtteraunce of his meaning by workes and not by wordes shoulde yet be brought as a witnesse to condemne him selfe though the wordes being well vnderstande make for no suche meaning in deede as by others it hath bene sufficiently declared The like impudencie it is to alleage S. Bernarde against the Masse or the presence of Christ in the blessed Sacrament Good man I dare say for him he sayde Masse euery daye if he were well at ease For other busines did not commonly let them in those dayes from that worke of all other most necessarie So the reciting out of S. Ambrose for the improuing of inuocation of holy Sainctes is no more but an abuse of the simples ignorance knowing well that he and all other of that time did practise prayers both often to all holy martyrs and sometimes peculiarly to such whome for patronage they did especially chuese of deuotion amongest the rest I speake not this that any might hereby iudge the doctors wordes to stande against their owne deedes but that euery man maye perceiue that where the workes and practise of all men be so plaine their words in some one place founde darke can not by any meanes be preiudiciall to that trueth which in all other placies they plainely set forth by wordes and by the euident testimonie of their owne practise to the worlde proteste the same Therefore I woulde exhorte all men in Christes name for their owne saluations sake to take heede how they giue credit to these libelles conteining certaine wrasted places out of the doctours workes against any trueth which by the further discourse of vsage and practise they are not hable before the learned to iustifie And therefore that all mistrust of vntrue dealing maye be farre from vs I will as I saide let them haue the feeling and handling of our cause throughly They shall behold in examples of most noble personagies both for their name vertu and learning the peculiar practises in praying and Masse saying for the deade both in the auncient Greeke and Latine Churchies CAP. IX 1 NOwe shall we haue the practise and examples of the olde fathers concerning sacrifice and prayer for the dead And here M. Allen before he commeth to the matter maketh much a do to shew how much more certayne the practise is then the wordes of any doctor because the wordes may be mistrusted or wrested the practise can not be altered As though he could shew vs any practise but that which is vttered in their wordes in which if there be any obscuritie or improprietie there shall be as great cōtrouersie of their workes as of their doctrine as they vsed the name of sacrifice in their teaching so they vse it in declaring what they did practise according to their teaching And therefore it is not worth a straw that M. Allen thinketh we may knowe their meaning rather by their practise then by their wordes except he could either in picture or in vision describe vnto vs euery thing that they did But let vs consider the examples of those thinges which he bringeth in to proue that practise is more certeyne then wordes First he can not deny but the wordes of Augustine and Theodoretus stand with vs that the sacramēt of Christes supper is a figure of his body and bloode and not the same naturally But the practise must expound the words not to stand with vs For they did so carefully keepe it adore it shew it to be worshipped prayed to it yea they taught children to call it God and Lorde which they would not haue done if they had not beleued it to be the very body of christ For this is cited 1. Theodoret. Dial. 2. in the margent His wordes be not set downe because they be directly against transubstantiation and nothing fauouring the grosse imagined presence of Christes body in the sacrament for he calleth the sacrament signa mystica the mysticall signes and the diuine mysteries which represent the body of Christ that is a true body and not fantasticall or absorpt of the diuinitie as the Eutichians dreamed wherefore it is playne that the adoration he speaketh of is nothing else but the reuerent estimation of the sacrament to be that which by Christ it is ordeyned to be and not any knocking or kneeling as M. Allen would haue vs beleue Augustine also vppon the 98. Psalme is cited belike to proue the adoration who in deede alloweth the adoration of the body of Christ whereof that is a sacrament but neither can you proue out of that place that he would haue the sacrament honored nor that the sacrament is the very body of Christ but euen in the same place speaking of the sacrament he sayth in the person of Christ non hoc corpus quod videtis manducaturi estis bibituri illum sanguinem quem fusuri sunt
benedicta agni videlicet immaculati qui tollis peccatum mundi potare de fonte pietatis tuae qui per lanceam militis de latere emanauit crucifixi Christi domini nostri vt consolati exultent in laude gloria tua sancta This in English we besech the most holy father for the soules of all faithfull departed that this high and greate sacrament of piety may be vnto them helth and salfty for euer ioye release and perpetuall refreshing O my Lorde God geue them this daye greate and perfect comfort of thee which art the bread that came downe from heauen and geuest life to the worlde Let them take ioye of thy holy and blessed flesh that is to saye of the lambe that taketh awaye the sinnes of the worlde Geue them to drinke of the springe of thy piety which by the pricke of the souldiers speare did aboundantly ishue out of the side of our Sauiour Christ and Lorde crucified that they being so comforted may reioyse in thy laude and glory euerlastingly To be brieefe all the Christian worlde agreeing as Isiodorus saith vpon one waye for the celebration of diuine mysteries maketh intercession for the faithfull departed that by the blessed sacrifice they maye obteine pardon and remission of their sinnes 7 It is a world to see that you haue nothing in a manner but forged euidence to proue the antiquitie of prayer for the deade in publicke seruice of the Church Who is so ignoraunt in antiquitie but he that will needes be obstinate that knoweth not those preparatories to that masse to be none of S. Ambrose his doings Otherwise it were not harde to proue that by the name of sacrifice he meaneth thankes geuing for the sacrifice of Christ as the maner of that vnpropre speach was to terme the holy sacrament which is but the seale of our saluation and not the matter thereof it selfe To be briefe what so euer Isidorus sayth if all the worlde agreed that intercession and sacrifice should be offered for the deade seeing it disagreeth from the worde of God and the practise of the primitiue Church so long as it followed the rule of Gods worde it is no whit to be regarded 8 For I assure the good reader that all realmes which nowe by Gods grace are in true faith and their Christianitie continuing or else before haue bene and now by schisme doe forsake the same that all those nations as they receiued one faith so in substance they haue euer agreed vniformely in order of seruice which they receiued at their first conuersion from the way of gentilitie by the good prouision of such as wrought vnder God in their happy turne to the Christian faith and religion The same men that brought in the faith of Iesus with all brought in this way of worshipping Christ in the same faith take away then this order of worship and solemne supplication which they planted thou must needes ouerthrowe the faith which they taught also This I say was euer found in the celebration of the fearefull mysterie of Christes body and blood besides the oblation of that holy host for the quicke and dead both namely for certaine and generally for all departed in Christ a solemne prayer and supplicatiō VVhich no doubt Christ instituted at his last supper which the holy Ghost afterward secretly suggested to the Apostles which they againe faithfully deliuered to the nations conuerted by their preaching and to diuerse of their owne disciples by whom the same was deriued downe to our dayes taught in all nations and carefully practised of all people VVhereof we haue worthy witnesses for all countries almost For so the godly doctors Tertullian Cyprian Augustine both taught and worshipped in Africke the same doth Hierom and Damascene in Syria Origen and Athanasius in Egypte Denyse the auncient and Bernarde in Fraunce Chrysostome in Thrase Basill and his brethern in Cappadocia Ambrose and Gregory the greate in Italy Augustine our apostle and Bede in our countrie of England with the rest of all nations baptized whome I named before and might doe yet a number what shoulde I say a numbre all that euer were counted Catholikes since the beginning were of the same sense in that cause And to name the residue where these do not serue it were lost labour For whome they can not moue I can not tell what maye perswade him in any matter Or if he dare not bestow his credit on these mens doinges whome maye he salfely trust If the communion and faithfull fellowship of so many godly and gracious men so vniformely consenting both in the teaching and practising of this matter can not sattell and quiet a mans conscience who can appeace his disquieted vnsteadfast minde and cogitation If in the construing of Gods word and scriptures so many of such graue iudgement of so approued wisedome of so passing learning of such earnest studie in tryall of the trueth of so vertuous a life of so heauenly a gifte and grace in the expounding of Gods worde maye not be salfely followed in this our search whome shoulde we follow or to whome shoulde the simple addicte them selues in so greate a turmoyle of learned men one sorte craking so fast of scripture and the other sorte when the matter commes to triall alleaging so many with so auncient and graue testimony for the true meaning of the same to which I saye is it wisedome to geue consent and credit if not to such as faithfully both followe and recite the scripture with the agreement of the worlde for the true sense thereof S. Augustine writing against Parmenianus the Donatiste much woundereth in that cleere light of trueth and the Churches doctrine the heretikes coulde be blinde or not see the euidence of that which all the worlde but them selues sawe And in many places he reckeneth the most horrible punishment in the worlde to be the cecity and blindenesse which God striketh the stubborne mans hearte with all in forsaking the fellowship of the Churches children But he that considereth the processe of our cause maye a thousand times more maruaill and feare Gods heuy iudgement in the blinding of the disobedient mens heartes and senses for sinne If they them selues were of their consciences examined what els they would wishe for the triall of any doubt I am sure they coulde name no one point nor any meanes in the worlde which our cause woulde not suffer and admitte For by what waye so euer any trueth in Gods Church was seuerally in the auncient times auouched against the aduersary heretike I am sure we haue the same with the aduauntage And for this last point of prayers in the Masses of all nations it is so euident that no man can gaine saye it and so generally practised that the vsage of praying coulde in no matter euer so cleerely set out the certaintie of our belefe as in this 8 If you will take M. Allens assurance in so weighty a matter that vseth so commonly to
wantonnesse in all their ordre of life for they are so dronken and drowned in heresie that they haue no sense of common reason VVhat a do had the magistrates to make these wylde men go in priestelike apparell to kepe their Rotchettes to obserue some steppe of antiquitie in their maners How they were driuen to tempre their lustes in prouision for some ordrely choise of their wiues that seeing them haue no respecte on what women they light that by Iustices of peace yet they might be bestowed if not well yet with their lesse dishonestie vpon persons not openly infamous Such fellowes are more fit to be gouerned then to beare rule ouer other in whome without constraint you shall neither finde comelynesse in maners ordre in life nor constancy in religion God of his mercye geue them some light to see their owne misery and spirite of humilitie to subiect them selues in time to Gods Church that is so carefull ouer them though to their owne great harme they so deadly hate her They can showe no cause in the world why they neede in any one pointe of all those which at this daye be in controuersie betwxit them and their owne mother rather to credit their owne phantasies then her graue authoritye which onely without farther questioning with obedieÌ„t children maketh more then all argument or eloquence of man in the earth 7 If the ciuill Magistrates haue thought good in some outward ceremony or vsage to beare with the infirmitie of the weaker sort of your side in hope to winne them it is a small matter for you that are the obstinate of that secte to triumphe vpon when all your blasphemous doctrine is abolished and nothing left but a fewe ragges of your robes to looke vpon And as for the iniunction for Priestes mariage was either to stoppe your slaunderous mouthes when godly ministers wiues should haue testimoy of their honestie by men of such credit or else to bridle the lust of your owne tounebulls the popish Priestes which when licence of whordom is denied them and liberty to marry permitted them would make no better choyse perhaps of their wiues then they did before of their women We can shew no cause in the world you say why we neede in any one poynt of controuersie depart from your Church yes M. Allen this one cause shal serue for all because your church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proud dame in a chayre controll the Scriptures the ordinance of Christ and the commaundements of God him selfe But how so euer you boast of her fast sitting she shall downe she shall downe euen to the bottome of hell 8 And for such as maye for their simplicitie be soone deceiued by following other mens errors with whome the names of doctors or the onely bare bragge of scriptures are as good as the allegation of places Let them aske of their teachers howe they can shifte them selfe when they see the practise of Gods Church generally so plaine for all Catholike assertions as for the article of praying for the deade amongest many other the like is nowe before proued Call vpon them and aske them in earnest because it lyeth vpon thy saluation whether thou must giue any credit to the perpetuall agreement and consent of all auncient doctors If they saye yea desire them to aunswere first to all these places so euidently confirming our purpose that they can not abide any cloude or couer of mans sutteltye for their shifting to any forged sense If they can not yet let them alleage some place of any auncient writer them selues which do expressely denye purgatory or prayers for the deade as we for the confirming therof haue done in plaine termes with out crafte or colour many If they be not able to do so much yet go further with them aske them whether they haue any expresse wordes in scripture that denie prayers to be profitable for the deade not by a fonde gesse of their owne heades corrupt consciences or preiudicate mindes expounded to that purpose but I say by expresse words or at least which is liberty enough expounded for that meaning by any one man of all the antiquitie If they can alleage thee but one worde of scripture construed of any one I say in all ages to confirme their vnderstanding to be currant and not framed for their phantasie to serue the necessity of their cause be bolde to followe them I woulde not put them to the paines to make discourse throughout all ages churches times and doctors as we haue done but onely let them to kepe their credit and scholars and to saue their honesties bring but one or two of all that euer wrote in the compasse of Gods Church and thou maiest with lesse daunger and better reason follow their doctrine But there is no one such place I assure the good reader neither in scripture doctor nor councell nor countrie nor age sith the worlde beganne I will go so farre in this point where there was euer steppe of any true worship of God there was prayer founde for the dead also They can not shew me any forme of ministration in the Christian world that was approued which hath it not expressely if it be knowen that it was in deede the seruice of any auncient Church not corrupted by them selues The same I dare be bolde to auouch for the lawe of nature and Moyses because it is proued already All their bragging of the example of the primitiue Church the masses of other countries of the doctors of the scriptures of the councells is but an vntollerable delusion and abuse of the simplicity of such as be not skillfull in the authors whome they name For when the matter comes to an ishue when they be harde holden either in this or in any other matter theÌ„ the doctors whom they chalenged before the simple for their partakers were but men then they might erre then they haue learned onely to credit the holy Scriptures then there is nothing but Gods worde and booke with them which els full faine would haue the doctors consent out of whom it were but a meane place which they would not alleage for their purpose if it might be founde Then if deniall of all the doctors iudgements serue not their turne In accusationem ipsarum scâ—ipturarum conuertuntur they will not sticke boldely to condemne the holy Scriptures with all 8 Now the youngers must pose their maisters as M. Allen a passing good Logician doth teach them yea and that is more he will teach vs what to aunswere also but sauing his wisedome he must geue vs leaue to aunswere for our selues First if we be asked howe we can shifte our selues against the generall practise of Gods Church for all popish assertions and namely this of praying for the deade we aunswere that we deny the practise to be generall because we finde it not in the holy
obscuro non ad propheticas voces non ad apostolicas literas nec ad euangelicas auctoritates sed ad semetipsos recurrunt Sed ideò erroris magistri existunt quia veritatis discipuli non fuerunt They fall into this folly which when they be hindered by any obscuritie to knowe the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authoritie of the Gospell but to them selues But therefore are they maisters of error because they haue not ben schollers of truth In these words Leo as great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures not customes or traditioÌ„s the rule of truth But I will come to your demonstration which you call a sure way to try the beginning of any doctrine yet vnder correction of your demonstratiue Logike I may be bold to say it is not the proper way nor the way by which all doctrine may be tryed and so you breake 2. of those principal rules that Aristotle giueth for demonstration 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the proper way to try all doctrine is by coÌ„ferring it with the word of God Againe the first author of euery heresie can not be named There was one heresie of them that were called Acephali because there was no head knowne of them It is harde to name the first authour of the Manichees whom the heretikes them selues call an Apostle of Christ. The Chiliastes the Ophâ—tes the Caineanes the Sethoites the Adamianes the Melchezedâ—chianes the Apostolike the Hemerobaptistes and an hundred more heresies shall they be thought to haue their heresie from tradition of the Apostles if the first author of them can not be named yet I weene it will be hard for him to proue out of any authenticall writer that any before Tertullian either named or allowed prayer for the deade who was almost 2. hundreth yeares after the incarnation of Christ. 2 If they answere me that this vsage is crept into the church sith the Apostles time though the first author can not be knowen I will also prouide that there no shift shall serue them Therefore I aske them whether that man which first preached it was resisted by the rest of Gods Church which before his preaching beleued the contrarie or no That is it say this doctrine of praying for the deade when it first came into the church did any of the true pastors free from the same error barke like a good shepheard against the beginner of that which they count so great a corruption of trueth Or all the Church was corrupted with it on one daye say what you thinke likest in this case aunswere with any probability or reason if you can saye plainely was our doctrine euer preaâ—hed against or neuer if it neuer were preached against then it neuer beganne as any noueltie or newe doctrine For it coulde not be that the Church being free from that doctrine shoulde straight without contradiction allowe that which they liked not before Howe can any man arise in the common welth and bring the vtter decay of all the olde ordres which he findeth and erect vp a new deuise of his owne and neuer man speake a word against him but all in one moment allow and like the same and that without all recorde by memory or monument of any chaunge But this thinge is most farre from the Churches and Gods pastors diligeÌ„ce that neuer receiued false doctrine without open contradiction and plaine noting the party that first began it as we shal plucke our gentlemen by the slieue a none All those that haue any skill in the antiquitie will beare me recorde that the pastors did neuer holde their peace when any wolfe did but once open his mouth against the sheepe They can tell that she did neuer beare the preaching or practise of any false and erroneous doctrine for one day together then it must needes consequently followe that the doctrine of purgatory and oblation for the departed with still consent of all nations receiued in the Catholike Church had no beginning after the first institution of our faith and worship of God but hath ioyned from the first grounde of our Christian institution in Christes faith with that sacrifice and due honour of God which the Apostles by the suggestion of the holy Ghost planted in all nations with the same faith Thus I make my argument euery falsehood was preached against and withstanded when it is first entered but this doctrine of purgatory and praying for the deade being alwayes vsed was neuer controwled nor gainsaide in Gods Church therfore it is no falsehood nor euer had any later institution then the Apostles owne prescription 2 Supposing that this errour crept into the Church though the first author thereof can not be knowne he demaundeth whether any man preached against it when it began first to be receiued I aunswere if the Pastors of the Church had done their duty to the vttermost it could not so easily haue preuayled And yet it is not to be thought but that some of the true Pastors in that tyme opposed them selues against it although the history of the Church in that time whâ—n it began to be spreade is to briefe vnperfect that we should be able to name who they were that preached against it Of so many heresies as Epiphanius nameth in his time it were hard to require and vnpossible to shew who preached against euery one of them at their first entrance yet they be damnable heresies In S. Augustines dayes of whose time the history of the Church is largely set forth vnto vs who preached or writte against that error which he and Innocentius Bishop of Rome al the church as he confessed did hold that infants must receiue the holy communion or else they should be damned Who preached against this error except perhaps the Pelagians that were horrible heretikes Was all the Church corrupted with it in one day If euery heresie had bene beaten down as fast as it sprang Antichrist should neuer haue set vp his throne in the temple of god If God had not sent into the world the efficacy of error that they which refused to beleue the truth should be iustly condemned to beleue lyes the man of sinne and sonne of perdition had neuer aduauÌ„ced him selfe aboue all that is called God. 2. Thessal 2. And therefore M. Allen plucke not vs by the sleue but your self by the nose you are the heretikes that refuse to beleue the truth you are they that turne away your eares from truth to fables you are they that attend to spirites of error and doctrines of deuills forbidding to marry and abstayning from meates which God hath created to be receiued with thankes giuing There is the brande marke of Romish religion that all the water in Tiberis nor in the Ocean sea shal not be able to wash out Must we finde out the authors of your heresies Nay iustifie
then trauailed through it in deede when you walked through the city of God which Augustine describeth I maruaile you could not see the westerne Babylon Rome to be the city or cōmon wealth of the deuill lib. 16. cap. 17. lib. 18. cap. 21. cap. 22. cap. 27. The mother of all abominations of the earth which either inuented or tempered of others inuention that golden cuppe full of abominations vncleanes of her whordoms with which she made drunken all the Kinges of the earth And therefore that we can not reade out of the word of God we shall heare of Purgatory among the Paganes Carpocratianes Heracleonites and Montanistes of whose heresies and pestilent practises the whore of Babylon hath patcht vp her purgatory and sacrifices for the deade as by and by I shall declare In deede the enuious man the deuil hath sowed these wicked sect masters And that doctrine which is first agreeable to Tertullians rule is vndoubtedly true and that which is later is false But howe shall the first doctrine be knowen but by the word of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught But by the holy Scriptures which are able to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes And seeing praying and offering for the deade as Tertullian him selfe confesseth is not taught by the Scriptures it is no good worke whereto the man of God should be prepared And for as much as you haue giuē me example of a syllogisme in Baroco in the last chapter I wil frame you the like nowe All good workes are taught by the Scriptures oblatiōs for the deade are not taught by the Scriptures therefore oblations for the deade are no good workes The maior is S. Paule 2. Timot. 3. The minor is Tertullians de corona militis Deny the conclusion if you dare 2 And yet besides that generall and most certaine instruction learned Damascen helpeth vs to the trial of this peculiar case Doubting not to affirme that all such cogitations as doe entre into mans head against the prayers or charitable workes for the departed be the deuills enuious and subtill suggestions for the hinderaunce of our brethern departed from the heauenly ioyes For thus he writeth in a sermon for the same purpose That olde serpent sayeth he whose endeuoure is to corrupt and deface the good and acceptable workes of God to lay snares for the entrapping of mens soules who is much perced through brotherly loue and brasteth in sunder for the enuy that he beareth towardes our faith and finally is madded by our naturall compassion one towardes an other as one that is the vtter renouncer of all good lawes he enspireth to some a fayned and false imagination cleane contrary to the holy constitutions that is to saye that all good and acceptable workes before God shoulde no whit proffet the departed soules If this writers iudgement be good as it is sure most sounde then must all our vnnatural and vnkind preachers haue an especiall inspiration of the deuill him selfe so often as they hinder fauour and grace from the deade For as he reduced our origin to the Apostles so he doubteth not to auouche the contrary perswasion to be euidently moued by the olde serpent of especiall enuie towardes mans saluation And nowe if thou list knowe in whome this subtill suggestion tooke first place and roote after the longe vsage of the other according to the Apostles planting we shall make thee for thy especiall comfort partaker thereof also VVe will not vse the aduersaries as they doe vs charging vs with later preaching or doctrine then the Apostles planted yet can neither tell where nor by whome it beganne But we shal by open euidence call the woolfe by his name Let an heretike but set out foot and once open mouth though he doe no harme at all yet the watcheman of Israell hath him by the backe straight The dogges were neuer so dumme in Gods Church but they woulde barke at the first apparance of any straunge cattell For that the notation of his arising and name was not onely a warning to the present time to take heede to their faith but an admonition to all the posteritie to beware of the like And it was euer counted a refutation of an heresie to the full to reduce it to a latter infamous author by the certaine recorde of the Churches historie The which kinde of reason both amongest the learned hath singular strength and is sensible for the people and of the aduersarie vtterly inuincible Irenaeus vseth it against the heresies of his time as a demonstration of much force VVhat saith he before Valentinus there was none of that his false secte and he came in with his seede after the first preaching of our faith a good while I can tell when he beganne howe he increased how longe he continued Both he and that other Cerdon entered first vnder the gouernment of Hyginius grewe vpwarde vnder Pius and continued till Anicetus time and so making the like accompt of other archeheretikes at length thus he concludeth all these rose vp in their apostacie longe after that the Church was ordered in faith and doctrine In this sense spake Irenaeus 2 Damascene your doctor which knew the depth of Satan so well should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture and then it had bene easy to haue found out the policie of the deuill But when we learne by Scripture that your doctrine is contrary to the fayth and hope of Christians it is not hard to iudge that the deuill inuented it vnder colour of charitie to ouerthrow faith and vnder shewe of helpe of mē to dishonour god You spend many words in vayne to proue that the first author of an opinion being found the opinion is found to be an heresy It shal be graūted with all fauour but so that no man shall be counted the first author of an opinion that is able to proue his opinion out of the word of god And withall that who so euer is not able to proue by the word of God any opiniō that he holdeth obstinatly though he haue many authors before him yet is he neuerthelesse an heretike 3 But the rule is common and certaine as any can be in the worlde and I woulde stande vpon the grounde thereof against all false doctrine in the worlde and thus it is Any opinion that may be truely fathered vppon any priuate man that was longe after the trueth was first preached by the Apostles if it be vpon a point of our faith and contentiously mainteined it is an heresie And thus againe who so euer was withstande in his first arising and preaching by such as were in the vnitie of the Church he was a false teacher and his abettours be heretikes And the force of this conclusion is so greate that the heretikes them selues if they can get any likely shew of raysing of any doctrine or practise of Gods Church in these latter
dayes they thinke they haue a good argument against the Catholikes Therefore they woulde father transubstantiation vpon this Councell the adoration of the Sacrament vpon that Pope indulgencies vpon that byshop c. For they be as saulcie with Gods Church Councells chiefe gouernors as we be with the Iacke strawes of Geneua And yet when they haue traualed to their heartes ake they can finde no one thing first inuented by any of them whome they falsely name to be the authors thereof But well seeing it is so stronge an argument of heresie to haue the ofspring of a later author with plaine prouisò of Gods Church for his markinge let vs adde so much strength to our cause to haue the father of the contrary falshood knowen and noted of the antiquity by his name 3 If you haue not a better vnderstander then you are a rule giuer your rule is false for though you hedge it in with many conditiōs yet you leaue out the chiefest which is that the opinion it self be cōtrary to the truth first preached by the Apostles or else it is no heresie though it may be truely fathered vpon any man priuate or publike sooner or later And here I muse why you put in the condition of a priuate man belike if the Pope inuent a new doctrine because he is a publike person that can not erre it must not be taken for heresie In your second rule except you vnderstand that the opinion of him which is withstāded be new and of his owne inuention the withstanding thereof no not by good men maketh it not false They that defended that heretikes should not be rebaptised were withstoode by Cyprian and all the Bishops of Africa who were notwithstanding their error in the vnitie of the Church yet were they not heretikes nor their opinion heresie because it was not of their inuention but of the word of god And wheras you affirme that we can not find any of those thinges inuented by them by whome we say they were inuented though we trauail vntill our hartes ake I aunswere though you seeke vntill your head ake lye vntill you haue worne your tongue to the stumpes you shall neither finde those things in the word of God nor to haue any other authors thē the writers of your owne sect haue named to be the fathers of most of them And that you charge vs with like saucines towards your Prelates that you vse toward the Iacke strawes of Geneua if you had not thereby confessed your selfe to be a saucy Iacke you might haue giuen vs occasiō to think no lesse of you For although perhaps you count the chief teachers of that Church for Iacke strawes yet the worlde can testifie that there is more grauitie and modesty in the lightest persons of all that Church then hath appeared of many Popes and Cardinalls of your Church of Rome 4 Epiphanius that notable man in his booke that he wrote for the confutation of all the heresies that were before his time and in other of his workes too nameth an obscure fellowe one Aërius to be the first author of this heresie that prayers and sacrifice profiteth not the departed in Christ. But what maner a fellowe he was and how lickely to be the founder of such a schoole thou shalt perceiue best by the writers wordes When Aërius coulde not obteine the byshopricke of Eustathius deposed after that he was once perfectly well skilled in Arius doctrine he inuented new sectes of his owne affirming that there shoulde be no offering for the departed and of him loe the scholars were called Aërians Let not the simple whome I woulde helpe in this cause be deceiued by the liknes of these two names Arius and Aërius for this later was the author of their secte and was a follower of the first called Arius in his doctrine beside And of the same sect and sectmaister S. Augustine thus sayeth following Epiphanius The Aërians were so named by one Aërius who taking snoffe that he coulde not get a byshopricke fell into the heresie of Arius first and then added therevnto other heresies of his owne makinge saying that we shoulde not offer sacrifice for the deade nor obserûe the solemne appointed fastes of the Church but that euery man should abstaine when he liste And there both he and Epiphanius doe recken moe of his holy opinions which I omit For it is enough for our purpose and to confunde all the heretikes of our dayes that this opinion was noted as it spronge vp in the primitiue Church for heresie and the authors not onely condemned as heretikes in that point but in many other thinges beside For I neuer reade of nor yet knewe any heretike but if he once mistrusted the catholike Church the Deuill was hable to perswade with him as well in a numbre of matters as in one And that is the cause that any man seduced falleth from one falshood to an other till he wholy be drowned in the waues of tempesteous doctrine And when he commeth once at the bottom then God knoweth he setteth light by the matter contemneth it and is often past recouery as it is sayde Peccator cum in profundum venerit contemnit Euen so did this Aërius first through ambitious pride fall to the Arians sect but because he counted it nothing glorious to be a scholar he woulde be a maister and that of a misheuous matter and a matter repugnāt to the sense of all Christes Church which before his preaching generally as after receiued and faithfully vsed prayers and oblation for the deade Of which consent of the vniuersall worlde and the heretikes follye in withstanding the same the sayde Epiphanius sayeth thus I will report his wordes in Latine because they sounde very well though him selfe wrote not in that language Assumpsit ecclesia in toto mundo assensus est factus antequà m esset Aërius qui ab ipso appellantur Aëriani quis autem magis de his nouit hic ne seductus homo qui etiam superest nunc an qui ante nos testes fuerunt c. Thus in english The Church hath receiued this trueth through the wide worlde it was sattled in all mens mindes before Aërius was borne or any of his secte that be nowe called Aërians And who I pray you is most like to knowe the trueth of these thinges this false wretche yet liuinge at this daye or else the faithfull witnesses that were before our time Beholde here you worshipfull maister ▪ you may suerly take greate cause of comforte in his liuely worde mary Sir he might haue bene an Archbishoppe in our dayes for he loued neither fasting nor praying He was fayne to be an heretike for anger because he coulde not be made a bishoppe then who now if he were in this happy age when the light is more plentifully powred vpon the people might haue bene promoted at Caluins decease to the ouerlooking of Geneua But his opinion was
may by the example of Christ aunswere one question with an other why was it first reueiled to the Arians in councell holden against Christ that the article of his descent into hell was meete to be added to the creede and confession of faith which was not reueiled to so many godly meÌ„ as set forth the Symbole nor to the holy Nicene Councell Aunswere me if you can or any Robin good fellowe of your sect â–ª learned or vnlearned is it any preiudice to the trueth of that article or to the right that it hath to be placed in the creede that it was first added by the Arrians why was the trueth reueiled to heretikes concerning rebaptisation rather then to Cyprian and so many catholicke byshoppes why was it reueiled to the Pelagians that infantes might be saued without the participation of the sacrament of Christes body and bloude rather then vnto S. Augustine Innocentius byshoppe of Rome and as Augustine sayeth all the catholicke fathers of that time which thought it was as necessary for them to receiue the communion as to be baptised If heretikes shoulde not affirme somethinge that were true they shoulde neuer deceiue any man And sometime Satan affirmeth the trueth not because he will haue it beleeued but rather that proceding out of his lying mouth it might the sooner be discredited And therefore sometymes Arrians Pelagians Anabaptistes and such like by the subtilty of Satan haue affirmed somethinge that is true either to winne credit to their manifolde lyes or else to drowen the credit of that trueth among so many errors 7 Nay I will pose you further is not your preaching the very ready waye to all such extreeme blasphemies as they boldely mainteine did euer man fall from the Catholicke Church to those further heresies then you yet openly professe but he tooke yours by the waye as a plaine passage to extreme infidelitie yea your opinions doe so well stande with the other that they neede not afterwarde to refuse any one pointe of all your doctrine to mainteine their owne There is no article of Catholicke doctrine but it is as much hated of them as of your selues Helpe your selues here my maisters or else all the worlde will take you to be in your heartes of the same sectes wherevnto your faith is alwayes so dearely ioyned Put your heades together and tell vs whie your doctrine is so deare to the AriaÌ„s all wicked men so hated of the holy fathers of Christes Church If you frame not your aunswere well you liese your credites your scholars and your honesties VVell thus haue I pointed out your author his name was Aërius you must be called Aërians you maye kepe the name of Protestaunts or Euangelistes beside For a holy newe calling is lightly ioyned to such men VVhereby though some simple be deceyued yet wâ—se men be warned Or if the olde authors of this secte be not so glorious as these new reuiuers if they list and like so they may call them selues Lutherans or Caluinistes or what they will but Catholickes Although Martyn Luther graunted purgatory and prayers with this error that such as were there might yet by their diuers deseruinges winne or loose life euerlasting as men of doubtefull state as they were before in the worlde plaine against our Sauiours admonition and carefull warning veniet nox quando iam nullus operari potest VVorke whiele the day lasteth for the night shall come wheÌ„ no man can labour But I neede not to stande vpon this point which of neither parte is much regarded Neither will I spende any more time in getting them an author of their secte seeing they haue choise of diuers Let them goe out of the Citye of God from amongest the holy company and turne on the lifte hande and looke amongest the outcastes of all agies and they shall haue freindes and fellowes enowe 7 That you saye of our preaching to be the waye to so many heresies might haue bene sayed of the Gentiles and Iewes to the whole Church of Christians The Gentiles continued constant so did the Iewes without schisme in their errors when the professors of Christianity were rent and torne into an hundreth sectes and heresies There were no heretikes but they hated Iewes and Gentiles as much as the true Christians was therefore the religion of the Iewes and Gentiles better then the religion of the Christians Yea there neuer was since Christ any heresie or heretike but they agreed in many more thinges with the Christians then with the Gentiles and Iewes was therefore the Christian religion false or the Paganes and Iewes superstition true It is therefore no dâ—sâ—redit of our doctrine that Arrians or Anabaptistes of our time either haue any thing of yours or prayse any thing of ours Neither our credit schollers nor honestie are in daunger for their errors which they learned not of vs neither are your wit learning or heresie the greater for vttering this foolish conceipte which no more toucheth vs or defendeth you then it carpeth the religion of Christ and mainteineth the Idolatrie of the heathen The worlde seeth what vaine reasons you leane vnto being destitute of the worde of god An heretike helde this opinion therefore it is false The deuill beleueth there is one God therefore shall not Christian men beleue so why woulde God reueile any trueth to heretikes why did the Pharizees which otherwise were heretikes defende the resurrection of the deade This vaine frothe of wordes and smoke of foolish and vnlearned questions will euen fall downe and vanish awaye of it selfe though it be not blowen away by vs The latter end of this chapter hath one croppe of his olde custome to charge Luther with defending of Purgatory which either was while he remained in ignorance or else it is but a fained fable as many other of him and others are deuised by the Papists who as they erre from the trueth of God so they delight in sclaundering of good men but they shall not preuaile their madnes is made knowen to all men That their falsehood is condemned and the Catholicke trueth approued by the authority of holy Councells Their pride in contemning and the Catholickes humilitie in obedient receyuing the same And a sleight vvhereby the heretikes deceiue the people is detected CAP. XV. 1 ANd for our parte it is sufficient good reader that we knowe the first founder thereof and that we be nowe right well assured that he in his time and his scholars in theirs haue bene noted called and condemned for heretikes in this as in other fonde peruerse opinions beside not onely by the singular iudgements of diuers learned men but by the common sense and consent of the worlde and by auncient Councells both generall and particular as we maye reade in the Councells of Carthage the iiij of Bracharense and Vase the Decrees of which by occasion we rehearsed once before They are both auncient and of greate authority and honored with the presence of
not nowe that they renounce all that helpe of Councells Doctors which with vauntes they clamed before whiles they impudently make a diuision or contrarietie betwixt them and the holy scripture And we take it at their hand as an open acknowledging of their lacke there where they pretended greatest store The which thinge if they likewise would confesse openly in pulpit and in plaine words as they meane nothing lesse when they shew the people that they were but men that they might erre that they followed the custome of the common people in their time that they are not to be receiued but where they agree with scripture that them selues must try whether they be consonant to the word of God or no if they would I say without such cloked wordes bouldly pronounce as Luther their maister did that they cared not for a hundreth Augustines or Hieroms that they esteemed not the consent of all nations that they would be tryed by the iudgement of no coūcell that they would purposely runne contrary to the Councells decree in all causes that they would take that for thonely truth which is conteined in the holy Scriptures and that for Scripture which them selues thought good and last of all that for the true meaning which agreed best to the vpholding of error and heresie then would the people leaue these lewde masters on the plaine field which now they keepe with them one while by the praises of the doctors and antiquitie and somewhiles by thabasing of them againe and deceitfull referring all to the onely Scriptures to which they say credit may safely be giuen where the doctors without daunger can not be further followed then as they be not found to disagree with Gods word So that the cause seemeth now to be driuen to this ishue in the eyes of thignorant whether men should rather beleue the Scipture or the doctors the word of God that can not be false or the fathers that were but men and therfore might erre deceiue and be deceiued 3 But that you loue to spende many wordes about a thinge of naught you might haue spoken as much in three wordes as you haue done in three leaues But that I maye breefely cut of your lauesh lippe labor whereas you vse in deede as greate impudencie as you charge vs withall in wordes first you would make our chalenge contrary to it self as though one while we boast of the doctors and then being driuen from them we flie to the Scriptures They that dayly heare our preaching with any diligence peruse our writing can beare vs witnes that you doe falsely shamefully belie vs For we stand for authoritie onely to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures and whatsoeuer we say of fathers councells or the most auncient primitiue Church it is either for testimony of our truth or for conuiction of your lying For it is you M. Allen the Papists that boast of all antiquitie all fathers all doctors all councells all Churches to be all togither on your side among whom as we will not deny but you haue some Patrones of some of your errors so will we affirme that you haue more enemies in the greatest of your heresies And therefore this ishue is rightly ioyned and without any Ieofayle vpon this point that the Scripture is to be credited rather then the doctors the word of God rather then the writings of men 4 But this is not the state of our controuersie nor of any question betwixt the Catholikes and them And that they knowe full well though they craftely cloke it with chaunge of wordes for we acknowledge most gladly that if any Doctor Prophet Apostle or Angell if it were possible preach vnto vs any thing against the word and truth of Gods Scripture that he is accursed of God and to be reiected of men But here is the stand and the point of all our doubtes in generall note it well Maister Protestaunt whether the auncient fathers some of them being in Christes time diuers of them scholars to his Apostles many within one hundreth or two of yeares afterward most of them more thē a thousand yeares since I speake of such as we haue named in our cause all wonderfully learned as well in the knowledge of the secretes of Gods mysteries as the tongues all mercifully endued with great giftes and graces all exceeding studious in the Scriptures all hauing the same testament and written worde of God that we now haue all vsing meruelous diligence in the conference of diuers places for the true meaning and vnderstanding of the same all hauing feruent zeale in teaching the Christian people all at times appoynted resorting togither from diuers partes of the world to some one general search in which by humble conference togither and prayer they doubted not to obteyne the spirite of truth as it was by our Maister promised the question is now then I say whether those holy men thus holpen by nature diligence time and grace be not more like to vnderstand the Scripture then these men which either lacke all these helpes or most of them Secondly it followeth thereupon whether we should rather giue credit to them affirming purgatory and prayers for the deade to be not onely consonant but plainely proued by the Scriptures or else to our new aduersaries auouching these thinges to be against the Scripture VVhereby you see we must not nowe reason whether we ought to beleue the doctors or the Scriptures better but whether for the true sense we must not beleue the olde fathers better then these newe fooles 4 In wordes you graunt our ishue because you knowe that all the cuntry of christians would otherwise go against you but in deede you deny it For the ishue which you would ioyne vpon is both captious and doubtfull Captious because it disioyneth those thinges which are not to be separated namely the Scripture and the true meaning thereof Doubtfull because it standeth vpon a likelyhoode and not vpon a certeinty For thus you ioyne whether the olde doctors be more like to vnderstand the Scriptures then the Protestants I haue aunswered before we wil make no comparison with them Neither will we challenge the likelyhood to vs neither will we leaue it to them for whether so euer we doe we shall be neuer the more certeine of the truth But this will we set downe as a most certeine principle that no man can vnderstand the Scriptures but by the same spirite by which they were written What then shall we arrogate the spirite as proper to vs and deny it to them God forbid They had their measure of Gods spirite we humbly thanke his maiestie so haue we How then is the spirite of God contrary to it selfe because they and we agree not in all thinges God forbid Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods spirite and both Martyres yet they agreed not both in one interpretation nor iudgement of the scripture what then there remaineth but this second
principle as certaine as the first That the spirite of God hath a meaning in the scriptures which is not to be sought out of the scriptures in the opinions of deceiuable men but onely in the scriptures where is nothing but the spirite of trueth These 2. commaundements serch the scriptures and trie the spirites teach how to attaine to certainety of trueth For the scriptures are not vnderstood but by the spirite and the spirites are not tryed but by the scriptures Therefore that the spirite maye declare his owne meaning one place of scripture must be expounded by an other All other ordinary meanes and healpes of wit learning knowledge of tongues diligeÌ„ce in hearing reading and praying are subordinate and seruing to this search and tryall And who so obserueth this serch and tryall most precisely shall come to the knowledge of the trueth most certainely And who so euer is negligent in this search and tryall though he haue otherwise neuer so many and excellent graces and giftes may easely be deceiued yea euen when he thinketh he followeth the authority of the scriptures I coulde alleage for confirmation of this truth the testimony of diuers of the auncient fathers which if they had alwayes followed that which some times they so highly commended they should not so lightly haue passed ouer some thinges and other thinges so slenderly haue mainteined But my thinkes the testimony of the Pope shoulde be a per se with all Papistes The Pope him selfe in his canon lawe for Cayphas some times doth prophecy hath allowed this to be the onely waye to expound the scriptures Affirming that no where else but euen out of the scriptures themselues the true sense of the scriptures is to be taken Ascribed to Clemens dist 37. cap. Relatum Lex Dei cum legitur non secundum propriam ingenij virtutem vel intelligentiam legatur vel doceatur Sunt enim multa verba in scripturis diuinis quae possunt trahi ad eum sensum quem sibi vnus quisque sparte praesumpserit sed non oportet non enim sensum extrinsecus alienuÌ„ extraneum debetis quaerere vt quoquo modo ipsum ex sâ—ripturarum authoritate confirmetis sed ex ipsis scripturis sensum capere veritatis oportet When the lawe of God is reade let it not be reade or tought after the force or vnderstanding of a mans owne witte For their be many wordes in the holy scriptures which maye be drawen to such sence as euery man of his owne heade shal presume to make but you may not doe so For you ought not to seeke forth without any forayne or strange sence that you may confirme it by any meanes by authority of the scriptures but you must take the sence of trueth out of the scriptures them selues And thus much for the true vnderstanding of the scriptures and now to your false superstition First I deny that any of the auncient fathers in Christ his time or scholers to his Apostles or within one or two hundreth yeares after Christ except one that had it of Montanus the heretike as he had more thinges beside in any one worde mainteined your cause for purgatory or prayers for the deade Secondly of them that mainteined prayers for the deade the most confessed they had it not out of the scriptures but of tradition of the Apostles and custome of the Church therefore they are not to be compared vnto vs in better vnderstaÌ„ding of the scriptures for that point which they denyed to be receiued of the scriptures Thirdly those of the auncient fathers that agreed with you in any parte of your assertion for none within foure hundreth yeares was wholy of your error notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had yet mainteined other errors beside that and about that discented one from an other and sometime the same man from him selfe and that is worst of all from manifest trueth of the holy Scriptures Therefore neither is their erroneous interpretation in this matter to be receiued nor M. Allens wise iudgement of vs to be regarded An aunsvvere to such arguments as the heretikes doe frame of the holy scriptures not vvell vnderstanded against the practise of Gods Church in praying for the deade or the doctrine of Purgatory CAP. XVI 1 THerefore to stoppe their waye at euery turne and because they talke so fast of scripture full fayne woulde I heare what scriptures they haue that make either expressely agaynst purgatory and prayers for the deade or else by any one learned man in all the worlde was euer expounded for any such sense And loe now good reader what scriptures they alleage that can abâ—de nothing but scripture First out of Ecclesiastes The tree whether it fall to the south or the north it lyeth euer where it lighteth Then they alleage out of S. Matthews Gospell that there be two wayes one to bring to heauen and the other leading straight to hell And then out of the second to the Corinthians they bring in howe we must all stande before the iudgement seat of Christ there to receiue eche of vs according to our workes and life and that by other mens labour our state can not be ameÌ„ded Againe they allege this sentence of the Apocalypse Beati mortui c. blessed be the deade that dye in our Lorde for after that the spirite sayeth that they shall reste from trauells All which textes and the like of that sorte make no more against purgatory then they doe against hell or heauen excepte that as Anaxagoras the philosopher saide all thinges were in euery thinge so these diuines can finde euery texte of scripture to make for what purpose they liste and yet if the Catholikes alleage a numbre of scriptures and them with the minde and iudgement of the whole worlde that doubteth not but they proue that for which they be recited yet they set light by them and impudently with clamors beare men in hande that they haue no scriptures at all VVhich thinges as they smell of much arrogancie in all men so in these folke that so malâ—pertly controwle others where them selues haue no scripture at all it is vntolerable CAP. XVI 1 THis chapter is but pro forma tantum to make a shew of a confutation where neither the tenth parte of our arguments are rehearsed nor those that are named with any couller of reason and lest of all with authority of scriptures are confuted First he will allow vs but 4. textes of scripture because he will not take paines to wrest any more And those make nothing for vs except all thinges be in euery thinge as Anaxagoras said It should seeme M. Allen that you your selfe dreamed so with Anaxagoras else would you not finde purgatory in euery one of them which we saye is in none of them but rather excluded by them all But who can prescribe the deuill a measure in lying when he is disposed to lye we haue no scriptures at all the Catholikes