669. for the priuate masse fol. 675. for an halfe communion Dureus resp Whitak rat 6. fol. 301. Ex Euseb eccles hist lib. 6. c. 44 in Greeke 36. in Latine and 43. in English Eckius enchir loc comm c. 15 fol. 156. If the Communion that is a companie receiueing together bee in that respect better then the priuate masse as M Harding himselfe saith where the Priest receaueth all the people gazing on and receaueing nothing which is the point which M Iewell blamed and the priuate masse be but a matter of small waight and a fact the Priests negligence causing the peoples slacknesse For shame leaue of to write in defence of it as also to make that a true Communion spiritual receauing whē the People stand by receaue nothing as both D. Harding M. Dormā doe Corporally the Preist spiritually the people saith he Then say I the people that receiue spiritually receiue the better for to receiue the flesh and bloud of Christ corporally they assigne to the wicked and reprobate such as Iudas spiritually they assigne only to the elect and godly But how are both these articles of private masse and halfe communion proued against B. Iuell and vs by one example of what a silly boy did giue to a sicke mā at his house in a case of necessity The boy because the Priest was sicke brought from him a little of the sacrament and gaue it the old man Do not these men lacke the practise of the Church for their warrant that wil obtrude such examples The story is to be read in Eusebius in Greeke Latine and English and therfore there can be no mystery in it except men desire to be abused What saith Eckius touching praier vnto Saints departed which doctrine is of great moment in the church of Rome Explicitè non est praecepta sanctorum invocatio in sacris literis The invocation of Saints departed is not expressed in the holy scriptures This inuocatiō of Saints cannot be proued net her by the old Testamēt nor by the newe Not in the old Testament saith he for the Iews were prone to Idololatry and vnder the Gospel it was not commanded least the Gētiles that were converted and beleeued should thinke they should bee brought againe to the worship of Earthly Gods Further saith he if the Apostles Evangelists had taught the Saints had bin to haue bin worshipped it would haue argued great arrogancy in thē as if they had sought renowne after death therfore the Apostles would not by the expresse scripture teach the calling vpon Saints Thus far Eckius Sessio 25. de inuocat The counsel of Trent doth not foūd it in the scriptures but bringeth it in by the window an other way by custome consent of Fathers which they do but pretend neither because they would not let go al their hold at once Saunders reakoneth this amongst other things to be the words of God De visib monarc l. 1. fol 12 Hoker Ecclespoll 1. par 13. The benefit of hauing diuines lawes written not his word written but his worde vnwritten If we in this age of the world be to trust to an vnwritten word I demaund to whom that was deliuered to be kept and preserued In the first age of the world as God gaue Laws to our Fathers without writing so hee gaue them memories which serued in steede of books the defects of that kinde of teaching being knowne vnto him he relieued it by often iterating of one thing by putting thē in minde of onething often After this grew the vse of writing as meanes more durable to preserue the laws of God from oblivion and corruption as the liues of men grew the more to be shortned therfore is Moses said to write al the words of God and vnto the Evangelist S. Iohn expresse Charge is giuen Scribe Exod. 24 4. Apoc. 1.11 14.13 Ioh. 20.30.31 write these things Againe Many other signes also did Iesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this booke but these things are written that yee might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ that Son of God So that if now after so much writing the ceasing of God to speake to the worlde but by writing we shal divert from his written worde to his vnwritten it wil be to turne the truth of God into a lie and to follow fables in steed of truth If this part of the doctrine of the Church of Rome in praying to Saints be without al warrāt of holy scripture as Eckius and Saunders do allow how much to blame are they Dureus Conf. Whi rat 1. f. 44 Cope dial 3. fol. 332. to the same purpose who would drawe a prescript rule from Christs owne words on the crosse when he cried Eli Eli My God my God why hast thou forsaken me saying that it was familiar to the faithful Iews to pray vnto Saints because they thought that Christ had called on Elias Is it not a miserable glosse that eateth out the bowels of the text If it were an vsual thing with the Iews to pray vnto Saints how said Eckius that the Iewes had it not in vse because they were prone to idololatry and to whom should they pray The fathers of the old testament saith he also were in Limbo in hel The Iews that said Christ called on Elias did deride mocke him so do the Papists abuse vs Matth. 27.47 that alleadge the holy scriptures to such purposes But into how many shapes wil they turne this one parcel of scripture and make it serue more waies thā one Saunders alleadgeth it for the service in an vnknowne tongue because the Iews seemed to mistake Christ De visib mon. l. 7. fo 679. for the seruice in an vnknowne tongue How neere that speech of Christ on the crosse commeth either in favour of praying to Saints or to the service in an vnknown tongue I wil not sticke even now to make themselues iudges The Doctrine of pardons hath brought no smal treasure to the church of Rome yet Alphonsus Alphons a Castro l. 8. verb. indulg Pardōs haue no ground either in antiquity or in the scriptures Polid. Virg. de invent rerum li. 8. c. 1. f. 614. reverēceth it but for new Against the error of denying pardons saith he I wil contend in few words because amongst al the things whereof we dispute in this work there is none that the holy scriptures haue lesse mentioned then pardons and wherof the ancient writers haue lesse spoken This report of Alphonsus doth Polidore Virgill confirme out of Fisher who was bishop of Rochester in these words No Divine doth at al doubt saith he whether there be purgatory but yet among the ancient fathers there is no mention at al of it or very seldome yea euen the Greekes to this day beleeue it not for so long as there was no care for purgatory nemo quaesivit indulgentias no
the questions they treat of they treat of al betweene the church of Rome and the church of England in the Masse sacrifice real presence service in a strange tongue halfe communion Popes supremacy worshipping of Images or in any difference else and shew me any apparant abuse of holy scripture or history contradiction each from other shift couler or devise to darken the truth in any of those points let it be in the least nature as those that I haue already will further shew in the booke following and I protest before God I wil fully giue over either to write or speak any thing against you Osey c. 8. 1. Cor. 14.20 Da domine vt te quem bene credendo con fiteor male viuendo nō denegem te quem strenuâ fide sequor ac tu negligentiae operibus non offendam Aug. Epist 111. but wil wholy apprehend your religion as consonant to the truth They that sow winde shall reape a storme Brethren be not children in vnderstanding but as concerning maliciousnes be children but in vnderstanding be men of a ripe age I beseech almightle God to make vs as wise as Serpents in prouiding the food of everlasting life to nourish our soules and as innocent as doues in doing ill that the corruptions of our liues doe not taint it From Tidworth the 1. of Nouember 1607. Iohn Panke THE NAMES OF THE POPISH Writers out of which this booke hath beene gathered 1 The third part of Thomas Aquinas summes with Caietans tracts annexed printed at Lions 1588. 2 The Sentences of Lumbard at Lions 1593. 3 The Trent counsell at Antwerpe 1596 4 The Romane Catechisme set out by the decree of the Tridentine counsell 1596. at Antwerpe 5 The Index Expurgatorius by the decree of the Tridētine counsell at Lions 1586. 6 The English Testament set out by the Colledge at Rhemes anno 1582. 7 Copes Dialogues at Antwerpe 1566. 8 Gregorie Martin against our authorised translatiōs at Rhemes 1582. 9 D. Allen of the sacraments at Antwerpe 1576. 10 Stapleton of Iustification against the protestants at Paris 1582. 11 Saunders visible monarchy at VVirceburge 1592. 12 Albertus Pyghius of eccle siasticall gouernment for the Popes Monarchie at Colen 1572. 13 Alphonsus â Castro against heresies 1534. 14 Tonstall b. of Durisme of the truth of the body and bloud of Christ in the Eucharist at Paris 1554. 15 Melchior Canus his diuinitie places at Colen 1585. 16 Hieronymus Torrensis gathered S. Aug. Confessions at Paris 1580. 17 Andradius defence of the Tridentine counsell at Colen 1580. 18 Another of Andradius in defener of the diuines of Colen against Kemnitius at Colen 1564. 19 Lodovicus Granatensis of a publike Communion at Colen 1586. 20 Eckius Enchiridion of common places at Colen 1600. 21 Genebrards Chronicles at Colen 1581. 22 Fasciculus Temporum 23 Polidorus virgilius of the first finders out of thinges at Franckford 1599. 24 Abdtas Bishop of Babylon writing the liues of the Apostles at Colen 1576. 25 The third tome of the Homeles of the anciēt fathers set out by the decree of the Trēt coūsel at Lions 1588 26 D. Hardings answere to B. Iuell chalenge at Antverpe 1565. 27 D. Hardings Reioynder to B. Iewells Replie 28 Dormans proofe of certaine articles denied by Mr. Iewell at Antwerpe 1564. 29 The returne of vntruthes by Stapleton against B. Iuells reply at Antwerpe 1566 30 A Catechisme by Laurence Vaux Bachelour of diuinitie an 1583. 31 VVilliam Reynolds against D. VVhitaker called a refutation of sundry reprehensions written at Rhemes and printed at Paris 1583. 32 Stephen Gardiner against B. Cranmer touching the sacrament called an explication and assertion of the true Catholike faith c. 33 Another of his called a detection of the deuils sophistrie anno 1546. 34 The fortresse of the faith by Stapleton annexed to Bedes history in english 35 Iohn Dureus his confutation of D. VVhitakers answere in the behalfe of Campian Paris 1582. 36 The disputations of Bellarmine against the Protestants in generall in 9. volumes reveiwed and acknowledged by the author at Ingolst adium by Adame Sartorius anno 1599. 37 Moditations on the my steries of the Rosary of the most blessed Virgin Marie translated into english 38 A popish supplication to the Kings Maiestie 1604. 39 Guicciardines historie in english by G. Fenton 40 A table in writing hand of a Catalogue of the Popes from Saint Peter hitherto 41 The firme foundation of Catholike religion translated by Pansfoote approued by Stapleton Antwerpe 1590. 42 Platina with Onuphrius annotations on the liues of the Popes at Louaine anno 1572. 43 Anastasius the Popes librarie keeper of the liues of the Popes at Magunce anno 1602. The Speakers Tuberius the Gent. Romannus the Scholler YOV knowe Romannus if so you remember that through a meere accident or rather a determination of God about Easter was 12. moneths you and I did meet when after some words of controuersie wee fell into a discourse touching my beeing abroad at that festiual time which occasioned some further matter touching a scruple in my mind then vttered vnto you my not receauing of the Communion neither then nor at anie time before Rom. Indeed Tuberius I remember it wel as also the summe of our talke at that time deliuered I hope I satisfied you in that point how necessarie to salvation it is for euerie Christian man to participate of the flesh and bloud of Christ in the sacrament of the supper so that for that matter I hope you need no farther lessons Tub. For the necessitie therof I am resolued but yet by the settling therof there is an orher question annexed to it which I am afraid wil bee noe lesse a maine barre vnto my conscience for not receauing now as that other was before of doubt whether I might receaue at all or not the former of the thinge this other of the beleife of the thinge For not to hide from you anie thinge which maie breed my disquiet but to acquaint you therwith since my last being with you I did light into other companie where talking of questions of saluatiō I related vnto them so much of our conference as touched the maine point of necessitie of receauing that sacrament and was told by them that I did verie wel in apprehending so hie a point in the worship seruice of God But when Irelated what manner of man you were in laying open vnto me what a sacrament was of the dignitie and worth of that sacrament and lesse that I had the while that I abstained and other instructions therto belonging as at the latter end you did they perceiued what you were and were noe lesse angry vvith me for attending you therin then offended with you for instructing mee that waie They called themselues Catholikes of others they are vsuà lly stiled Papists but whatsoeuer they be in name me thinkes their care ouer me is very good that I should enter the right waie touching my bee
leife in that sacrament Rom. Why what perceaued they by my wordes of that sacrament Tub. They take you to hold not Catholiklie of it neither as our Lord and sauiour jesus Christ did first institute it nor as the ancient times of 1500 yeares by Fathers counsels and Doctors did and therfore they wished mee to make a stand and pause before I ioined with you therin For you teach that they who receaue it at your hands receaue only a peece of bread One of Hardings slanders and a draught of wine not worth anie thing and so call it a sacrament of the Lords institution wheras he gaue his bodie his reall substantiall bodie so his disciples did eate him reallie and substantiallie and dranke his verie blood and to beleiue this is healthful holy religious and they that receaue it so receaue it as Christ instituted it and they who doe otherwise Rhem. I. Cor. 11. fol. 453. in fine paginae Magnus nuga tor magno co natu magnas nobis nugas parit receaue noe sacrament but prophane bread as they called it This they did saie of you then touching the difference betweene them and you in that question and that in all other things al antiquitie consent of al ages were for them nothing for you Rom I doubt not but they are verie bitterly eloquēt against vs when opportunitie is offered of a fit audience their tongues pens are miserablie valiant But me thinketh Tuberius you are remember that both Christ himselfe al ages and all Doctors counsells doe make for them against vs ordinary abilitie cannot comprehend this in so short time much like vnto a sillie gentlewoman with whom of late I talked also who being not aboue one quarter of a yeare from her freinds returned home with arguments as strong as yours in defence of her new obtained religion shee could talke what a good booke the Rhemists bible was she could saie the Scriptures were written in Greeke and Latine For the Rhemists testamēt For Hebrew Greeke I saie not that they did teach her so simply but simply she remēbred what they said Laur. Vaux bachelot of divinity in his catechisme ca. 3. taketh awaye the 2 commādemēt of grauen images insted of that teacheth them Greeke Written in latin by Gasper Loarte doctor of divinitie translate dinto english fol. 76. would haue vs beleiue contrary to that which the gospel expresseth and therfore people shold praie in latine naie she could distinguish betweene an Idoll and an Image obseruing that the second commandement was onlie directed against Grauen Idolls as she tearmed them and not against Grauen Images And yet nether before shee went nor now can she read english to such a method vvas she brought to too quickly to knowe what she said I doubt not but she had bin so instructed but not by M. Vaux for he to make sure worke hath taken that commandement wholy out of his catechisme as remouing a block as belike stādeth not in their waie which noe wise man will euer bestowe anie labour about recompencing his breuitie in that point in telling the vse of certaine Greeke words Latria Hyperdulia Dulia where a learner is taught to worshipp anie creature in heauen or earth and commit as he thinketh noe I dolatry but noe otherwise then if a grand theife should teach a puny to steale by precept and when hee had committed the fact that is had stolen in deed saie it were not the deed and so leaue him to the gallowes Or if it had bin her luck to haue bin schooled by him that composed the instructiōs and advertisements how to meditate the misteries of the Rosary hee would haue taught her a more compendious waie to haue defended it by or anie other point then by a distinction which is although the commandement forbid vs the worshipping of anie Image yet wel for our parts maie beleiue and doe otherwise For so hee saith plainlie in an other question though not of that waight yet of that clearnes where speaking al in honor of our blessed Virgin Mary doth not sticke to sale that our Lorde redeemer did presentlie after hee was risen vp visit his most holie mother vvhom we maie vvel beleiue to haue bin the first albeit in the Gospel there be noe mentiō made therof For saith he if as the Evangelist reporteth our Lord did Luc. 24. after he was risen vp appeare to S. Peter that had earst denied him whie should not wee beleiue that hee appeared first to his blessed mother that neuer denied him Here is a plaine lesson a graunt that the Scripture teacheth so and so yet vvee maie beleiue otherwise Thus as their affections lead them either to the things or persōs wherof they speak so doe they in their conceipts bend the course of their arguments Other amongst them ad those of the greatest doe referre this appearing of our Lord to Saint Peter De rom pont lib. 1. c. 20. fine for S. Peter aboue al the disciples reckoning it amongst his prerogatiues as Bellarmine whoe affirmeth that Christ rising appeared to S. Peter first of al his disciples confirming it by S. Lukes Gospel and the witnesse of S Ambrose who saith that of the men Christ appeared to Peter for before saith he Christ had appeared to Mary Magdalene and that he further confirmeth out of S. Paule howe that Christ rising the third daie was seene of Cephas and then of the Eleuen 1. Cor. 15. Abdias Apost hist l. 6. fol. 188. Hard. cont Iuell art 1. fo 25. Ei primum omnium vt Mariae Magdalenae Petro apparere voluit Reyn. confer with Hart c. 8. diu 2. Sutc. cont Bel. de rom pont l. 2. c. 6. Rhem. Marc. 16. v. 1. Mat. c. 28.1 afterward of more then 500. brethren and after to S Iames. On the other side Abdias described to be an ancient writer first Bishop of Babylō who was the Apostles scholler and saw our sauiour in flesh and was present at the passion and martirdome of S. Andrewe and S. Mathewe speaking in the honor of S. Iames doth saie that our Lord woulde appeare to him first of all as he did to Mary Magdalene and to Peter vvhich indignitie of these men against the Gospel graclesse exposing it vnto the worlde as vertue is not only taxed by our learned writers as being dealt iniuriously withal but their owne Rhemists both confesse according to the truth of the text that Christ appeared to Mary Magdalene Mary of Iames Salome called by S. Mathew the other Mary and acknowledge it by their note That she first before al other they next saw him after his resurrectiō But the Rhemists seeing the Scripture hath giuē this prerogatiue of appearing from Peter to the woemen will stretch hard but euen touching that some what in it shal be his prerogatiue for when the weomen are bidden to telis to the Disciples to Peter they
say Peter is named in speciall as often elswhere for prerogatiue It is said of Midas that he wished every thinge he did touch might be gold I thinke they are as so manie Midasses every thing they deale in maketh for Peters prerogatiue a simple prerogatiue I thinke it is for him to bee named after all the Disciples Tub. Here bee shrewd accusations indeed they accuse you and you accuse them on whom shal I such other that stand in doubt betweene you relie They are very famous for their learning and paines taken in defence iustification of their cause their volumes and bookes are many and it maie be your replies answers are as large but here is the doubt who saith true Rom. Iuell to the reader in the def of the Apologie Indeed it cannot chuse but pitty everie good maÌ„ in behalfe of his vnlearned brother to see his conscience thus assalted this daie with so contrarie doctrines of religion especially when there is a zeale to followe and men knowe not what and would faine please God and cannot tell how or if they finde not themselues armed with Gods holie spirit not are able to discerne their meat from poison nor to wind theÌ„selues out of the snares for Sathan transformeth himselfe into an Angel of light 2. Cor. 11. the wicked are more watchful vehement then the Godly and falshood is oftentimes pointed beautified shineth more glorious then the truth These be the things which as S. Paule saith worketh the subversion of the hearers and by meane wherof 2. Tim. 2. Mat 24 as Christ saith if it were possible the very elect of God shoulde bee deceaued Notwithstanding God in these daies hath so amazed the adversaries of his Gospel and hath caused them so openly and so grossly to laie abroad their follies to the sight and face of all the world that noe man now bee hee neuer so ignorant can thinke he may be iustly excused it is but tolle lego take vp read read and vnderstand by Gods assistance But the indiscretion of manie in the world that doe stand doubtful of the truth betweene them vs is equivalent and semblable to that answere which I once hard a Master giue to on that had bin his Factor or rather indeed his fractor in a case not vnlike to this about some difference between them of accouÌ„ts the Factor pleaded his innocencie and truth by the plainenesse of his proceedings in deliuering his bills and reckonings to his Master from time to time to be examined his M. replied you haue so done indeed but you knowe that I neither did nor would looke on them It is noe basenesse for the greatest to de scend looke into their own estate Bacon sE of expeÌ„ce nor examine theÌ„ I fouÌ„d by that answere that the reason whie the Master would not nor had anie liking to veiw them was because hee woulde haue libertie at anie time as occasion serued to say he could not tell whether his man deceaued him or not Wheras if hee had but taken the paines to haue examined his mans dealings hee might haue bin assured to haue found how he had behaued himselfe towards him whether true or false so fareth it in these daies with vs painfull workes there are enough some of great volume some slighter al concerning the truth of our cause which all men maie see and read but that which galeth vs and most tieth our adversaries to themselues and their errors is that they who condemne vs knowe vs not whether we be white or black they neuer obserue Albi an atri simus nesciunt who say we are heretickes dispisers of the Church and yet neuer read what we hold nor examine vs in any thinge that we doe as publikely complaineth a great scholler of our side D. Doue of Recusancy c. 2 and I my selfe haue oft had experieÌ„ce And therfore in few words between them and vs I can saie as the ancient father Arnobius said against the Gentiles wheÌ„ they accused the christians of those things wherof themselues were guiltie even in the verie entrance of his conference he testifieth roundly to the world Arnob. contra Gentes lib. 1. in princip in these words Efficietur enim profecto rationum consequentium copulatu vt non impij nos magis sed illi ipsi reperiantur criminis estius rei qui renuminum profitentur esse cultores atque inveteratis religionibus deditos It shal be proued saith he by the ioining of our reasons to gether that we are not so wicked as they lay to our charge but that themselues are founde guiltie of that wherof they accuse vs who doe professe themselues worship pers of the Gods and only retainers of the ancieÌ„t religions But if you or any other wil be amated with anie streame of words to beleiue that part without looking into the matter reasons proofes drifts and arguments of al sides wherby you maie rightly iudge indeed the same Father telleth you againe Quid est enim quod humana ingenia tabefactare studio contradictionis non audeant Arnob. Ibid. l. â— fol. 102. what is it saith he that the witts of some meÌ„ dare not ruinate with the studie of coÌ„tradictioÌ„ yea although that which they studie to ouerthrowe be pure and clear and hedged with truth on everie side and who cannot saith hee dispute with arguments of great liklihood yea although he defend a manifest vntruth lye The roote of this error vaine consequeÌ„ce he toucheth in the next words following Cum enim sibipersuaserit quis esse quid aut non esse amat quod opinatur asserere When a man hath perswaided himselfe that anie thing is so or not so he then loueth what he apprehendeth and desireth to excell others in sharpnesse of wit especialliy if the matter which is dealt in be remote hid or darke But God be thanked those learned diuines reuerend prelats before mentioned and a number other in this age with their infinite toile and paine haue threshed and winnowed for vs the doctrine and differences of the Church of Rome and this of England they haue performed the first part of the Apostles speech which willeth to trie all things 1. Thess 5. â—1 the latter part resteth vpon vs to followe that that which is good bee kept nether can there be a keeping of that which is good without a triall of all things doe goe before so that I dare pronounce there is none who maie not if he will see on which side the truth is Epist 105. M. to this purpose I doe remember a sentence of the Godly and learned father S. Augustine which is Ignorantia in cis qui intelligere noluernut sine dubitatione peccatum est Ignorance in them which are notwillng to learne without doubt it is sinne in them which cannot learne a punishment of sin in both there is noe iust excuse but iust damnation Tub. It
the text The Doctors that defeÌ„d theÌ„ The manner of handling them or quoting of places not to be found to vse any vaine and foolish shifts in answere such as any may perceaue to bee feeble weake to deliuer their mindes so doubtfully that an English man in the English tongue shal not vnderstand vvhat they meane to be so contrarie and opposite on to an other and many times each froÌ„ himselfe to dispute for that which they confesse is not so ancient nor so good as the contrary It is an olde saying a rich man need not bee a theife and a good cause at their handes cannot bee lost for lack of pleading only that which wanteth is the truth of the cause they haue bin fashioÌ„ing of it these many yeares euer anon there comme some experter masters than formerly vvith some fresher vernish but noe better prose some tast of this dealing I gaue the readers be-but a more larger euidence and veiw shal follow after in diuers of the points mentioned that all the vvorld shal see confesse that the popish religion at this day taught and professed by the verie confused handling of it is nothinge lesse then accient catholike and true which shal be so faithfully collected that they shal not be denied to be their owne and so plaine for vnderstanding Peruium cunctis iter Sence in Oct. art 2. that although you concâ—aue little or nothing of the questions theÌ„selues yet you shall perceaue the weaknesse of their side by the manner of laying downe their proofes and defences Tub. When I shal see that performed substaÌ„tially which you haue here promised confidently I wil surly stay my haÌ„d from subscribing my harte from consenting to anie such doctrine as shal stand vpon such proofes Rom. By the grace of God I wil not faile to shew it you you shal not take any thing vpon report you shall see and read their owne bookes and discourses themselues and since now you are the man vnto vvhose conscience I appeale for your consent to our side let me shew you the dutie of a reader in a case of controuersie betweene two noe otherwise then D. Harding in his Reioynder against B. Iuell touching them both doth lay it down to you and me and al men else To the reader The dutie of a reader Consider I require thee saith he what is thy duty Remember thou be not partiall towards either of our persons Let all affection be laide aside Let your conscience be the rule of both loue hatred Let neither hope nor feare haue place in your hart to win or loose by either of our fortunes yea if you can so conceaue let our bookes represent vnto thee not Iuell Harding but two men Iohn Thomas departed this worlde to noe man liuing knowen to haue liued And when you haue left of all affection touching our persons then study to discharge thy minde of all blind parciality towards both our doctrines abandoning all humane likings and carnall phantasies with a single eie simple hart behold imbrace what is good true only for loue of God and for the truthes sake Being thus desposed commend your selfe vnto God with praier beseeching him to lighten your vnderstanding by his holie spirit to lead you vnto the truth This done with an humble hart read both our Treatises and iudg yet this much I saie in case of necessitie not to all in generall but to certaine such as by other meanes will not bee induced to consider of the truth The reply is that which B. Iuell wrot against him for otherwise I acknowledge that both the REPLY and all other hereticall bookes by order of the Church without speciall licence bee vnlawfull to be read and are vtter he forbidden to bee read or kept vnder paine of excoÌ„municatioÌ„ Remember I saie the part of a iudge is to iudge as the Lawyers speake secundum allegata probata that is to saie as things be alleadged proued Beware everie thing is not proued for which authorities bee alleadged Nota bene neither is all made good which by probable arguments seemeth to be concluded Allegations must be true plaine simple neither weakned by taking awaie nor strengthened by putting to of wordes nor wrested from the sence they beare in the writer else they bewraie the feeblenesse of the cause for proofe whereof they be alleadged also the great vntruth of theÌ„ that for furtherance of their purpose abuseth them if they haue corrupted their witnesses or brought in false witnesses if they haue vntruly reported their Doctors shamfully falsified their sayings theÌ„ ought you to giue sentence against them then is their honestie stained then is their credit defaced and then is their challenge quiet dashed Thus farr D. Harding Mat. 27.24 And Pilate tooke water and washed his handes before the multitude saying I am innocent of the bloud of this iust man euen so cleare is M. Hardinge and his fellowes froÌ„ misreporting the Doctors or falsifying their sayings or in not committing any thing wherof they would seeme to be most free as anon shal appeare Tub. Me thinketh by these words of D. Harding by your request made before vnto me that both parties on both sides require nothing more then that al their readers should ponder waighe the allegations proofes both of the one side other and then iudge of the truth accordingly but I feare he meaneth nothing less because he saith that both the REPLY al other hereticall books by order of the church without speciall licence bee vnlawfull to bee read or kept By hereticall bookes hee meaneth the protestants writings which inference abridgeth the libertie of reading consequeÌ„tly of iudging by any indifferent way or meane to come to the knowledge of the truth For the heathen Poet could deliuer a good speech to that purpose by the very light of naturall discourse Qui statuit aliquid parte inauditâ alterâ Aequum licet statuerit haud aquus fuit Senec in Med Act. 2. He that not hearing either part ponounceth his decree Vnrighteous maÌ„ accounted is though right his sentence be Rom. I did includ so much in mine owne speech vnto you before but that perhaps you wil sooner approue of your owne obseruation then my collection And to tel you truly which you shal certainty find by conuersing more with theÌ„ they doe not suffer the common laitie amongst them to see or read or heare any thinge without speciall licence so much and such parcells as it shal please them But those that they knowe are so stiffe and obstinate that nothing will a waken their vnderstanding perhapps they will giue some small libertie of reading the better to colour their denial to others And this doe they not only touching the vse or reading either of the holy scriptures or of the protestants bookes Hard cont Iuell art 2. fol. 56. In
vs Notwithstanding this saith he it must not be dissembled that there are some diuines amongst whom is Bonauenture Caietane Dominicus Soto who affirme that Christ did not blesse by the wordes of Consecration therfore to blesse the bread and to consecrate the bread was two diuers things in the action of Christ so the chāge was not made by the blessing but after by the sacramentall wordes Which opinion saith he although it may probably be defended may seeme to be agreeable to the vse of the Church which nowe blesseth the bread by the signe of the Crosse before it vse the word of Consecration and may lesse trouble the order of the Evangelists who after the mention of blessing doe put the breaking distributing then in the fourth place the word of the sacrament it bringeth also some reuerence to the sacrament for if bread should bee broken by Christ after it were consecrate some small mites of the cōsecrated host might by likely hood haue fallen away These reasons saith he although they be waighty yet the safer opinion more agreeable to antiquitie and in euerie Church almost allowed which the Tridentine counsel doth in their catechisme follow is that whē Christ blessed he consecrated the things set before him That we ought so vnderstād that Christ blessed by saying This is my body 1. Hee tooke bread 2. Blessed it said 4. This is my body 3. He brake gaue Cicer. offic l. 2. although the Euāgelists by an inverted order of the speech or seting that after which should goe before doe put the distributing the breaking betweene the blessing and the forme of the sacrament which as it is very likly was done after the consecration or else euen as Christ did speake the words Facta omnia celeriter tanquam floscule decidunt This trecherie and deceipt cannot any lōger be hid it is apparent to all mē Neither is it any maruel that they who make of the Gospell as a thing made to bee handled as they thinke good should lose themselues in the labarinth of their owne druises as if reason had euen purposly forsaken them who of purpose forsake God the author therof For haue they these 1605. yeares been mounted on the stage of arrogancie out brauing a better cause then their owne and crying the Gospell the Gospell you Protestants heretiks both denie depraue it now doth D. Allen tell vs freely and vnconstrianedly that the Gospell will not serue their turnes as the Euangelists haue deliuered the order of the Lords supper What shall now become of Campians bragge Agedum pagella scripta superiores sumus ac sententia scripticontenditur Camp 2. ratio Goe to saith he we haue the better of it by the written word now we must debate the meaning No saith Allen the Gospel is not for vs And I say nether the writing nor the meaning of the writing is any for you And therfore Christo proprior ab hac lite remotior that age or antiquity which is nearest to Christ is farthest of from thē in this controuersy And for that one hand washeth an other they both wash the face often one foote strengthneth an other and they both stay the body so the testimonie of Cardinall Caietane in this case shall stay D Allen that hee be not vtterly ruinated because of his large graunt which they both haue yeelded in confirming the truth Caiet commēt super Tho p. 3 q. 75. art 1. Caietane in his Commentary on Thomas Aquinas vpō this question whether in the sacrament there be the body of Christace cording to the truth of it saith that touching that present demaund the rest following for the more manifest cleare vnd erstanding of the difficulties in them it is to be considered that touching the being of the body of Christ in the sacrament of the Eucharist there is nothinge writtē in the holy scripture but the words of our sauiour This is my body and those words must be true And because saith he the words of the scripture are expounded two waies ether properly or figuratiuely Vel propriè vel metaphoricè the first error about those wordes is of them that did interpret them figuratiuely which both the M. of the sentences Thomas doe proue in this article Ft consistit vis reprobationis in hoc the strēgth of the reproofe resteth in this that the words of the Gospell are vnderstood of the Church properly I say of the Church beecause there is not any constraint in the Golpell to cause vs to take them properly ex subiunctis siquidem verbis There is nothinge in the Gospell to cōstraine vs to take these wordes properly without a figure De lapsis ser 5. Cont. haeres l. 3. c. 11. fol. 237 Parisijs anno 1545. Allen vt ante l. 1. c. 16 Reciteth 4. seuerall opiniōs amōgst them touching the words of consecreation The iudgment of that Pope is refused who determined transubstantiation for thē for truly by the words following which shal be giuen for you in remission of sinnes it cannot bee concluded euidently that the former wordes This is my body are to be vnderstood properly So here be two cardinals Allen Catetaine who say that not the Gospel but the Church maketh for them Is there a Church where the Gospel is not Non iungitur Ecclesia qui ab Evangelio separatur he is not ioyned to the Church saith S. Cypriam who is separated from the Gospell S. Ireneus saith Columna firmametum ecclesie est Evāgelium spiritus vitae The Pillar and stability of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life But the truth is there is on their side in this question neither the Church nor the gospel nor any antiquitie at all To proceede with D. Allen in the other Chapter specified before by me wherein he laboureth to proue that the words of Christ This is my body are the words of Consecration he is further willing to let vs knowe what differences there hath bin amongst their schoole diuines who euer haue bin the vpholders of popery about the words of Consecratiō which they should be The first opinion is of Innocentius the third who called the great councel of Lateran and decreed Transubstantiatiō who said that Christ did consecrate by his divine power when he blessed and vsed therein the power of his might doing that without forme of words which we cannot do without a prescript order so that after he had consecrated he deliuered to vs these words This is my body by which words the Church should euer after consecrate This opinion of the Pope is reproved by Thomas Aquinas as beeing directly against the words of the scripture and by Allen as being vntrue The second opinion is of some who thought that Christ when hee blessed did consecrate 2. but with other words thā those where with he taught vs to consecrate But
concluding mattâ—…s of doctrine On the contrary side wee hold in few wordes that they may erre in all hauing no more assurance from aboue for the one then for the other For confirmation of which our position we alledge S. Augustine who speaking both of the priuate writings of Bishops and of councells held in particular regions and of generall counsells gathered of the Christian world saith Etipa concilia quae per singulas regiones vel prouincias fiunt ToÌ„ 6. de bapt con Donat. l. â— c. 3. plenariorum conciliorum authoritati quae fiunt vx vniuerso orbe christiano sine vllis ambagibus cederâ— And eueÌ„ those counsells which are held in euerie region or prouince without al doubt must giue place to generall couÌ„sells which are gathered of all the christian world and that euen the generall counsells themselues are often corrected the former by the later when by any triall of things that is opened which was shutt vp and that is knowen which was hid without any swelling of sacrilegious pride without any stiffe necke of arrogancy without any contention of malitious enuy with holy humilitie with catholike peace with Christian charitie Here wee haue a plaine place that only the holy scripture cannot erre that all other writers may erre that all prouinciall counsell may erre and last of al generall councells themselues may be corrected the former by the later therfore without question they may erre They agree with vs in this text of S. Augustine but the meaning of the words not withstanding they be very plaine they doe deny framing the text to as many fashions as possible they may They seeme by their answers vtterly vnacquainted with the occasion of S. Augustines discourse in that place as though it were a very hard thinge ether to see the originall 〈◊〉 hauing seene it to iudge of it But the multiplicitie and crokednesse of their shifts doth plainly shew that the authoritie maketh against them and for vs. Andradius the defender of the Tridentine counsell Andr. defeal conc Trid. l. 1. fol. 51. 53. They may be explaned or vnfolded is the first shift saith that S. Augustine seemeth to him to say no more but that later counsells maie with clearnesse vnfold those things which the former had overslipped And that S. Augustine insinuateth so much where hee saith when by triall of things that is opened whâ—…h was shut vp and is knowne which was hidden This glosse of Andradius will soone eate out the bowels of the text S. Augustine saith a generall councell may be amended therfore corrected which is more then to be explaned or vnfolded And the opposition that S. Augustine makes between the holy scriptures which is not to erre all other authorities must needs stand firme that must be inferred vpon generall couÌ„cels which cannot 〈◊〉 spoken of the scriptures but the scriptures may be said to be vnfolded explaned or enlightened but not corrected therefore S. Augustine meaneth more of generall councels than so Advers haer l. c. 8. fol. 17. a. leaveth out the principall member eveÌ„ plainly that they may erre Alphonsus a Castro alleadgeth this of Augustine by the halfe For where S. Augustine saith and even generall couâ—cels are often corrected the former by the later he breaketh it of and saith nothing of it alleadgeth the former part to proue that provinciall councels may erre as though S. Augustine had gone no farther and not spoken of generall also 3. Locor Theol. l. 5. fol. 185. b. ad 10. Non videtur loqui de emeÌ„datione fidei sed legum Melchior Canus comming to answere this place of Austine deviseth a new shift That S. Augustine there speaketh not of any amendment in a matter of Faith but of Lawes which are to bee referred to things either done already or to be done A strange kinde of harmony these men make in opening one poore place in this ancient father But they do herein as theeues indicted for robbery they wil confesse nothing because they know they are guilty but must haue all things proued against theÌ„ He speaketh plainely of the question of Rebaptization as by and by I wil declare when I come to Bellarmine The Rhemists glauÌ„ce at this text of Austine in their notes on the new testament 4. Annot. in 15. Acts. v. 13. of accidentall changable things Tull. offic l 3. and do therein exceedingly giue the world to vnderstand that when they compiled that worke they aimed only to vphold folsehood and not to open anie truth But as Tully said of falshood in oaths Fraus distringit non dissoluit periurium Deceipt bindeth but doth not discharge the oath so let them huddle shuffle cloake hide glose and doe what they wil the text of Augustine is open for all men and there may they most be discouered He speaketh say they of circumstances accident all which require alteration and not of essentiall points of doctrine when he saith the former generall or plenary counsells may be amended by the later Quasi matrimonio habet dotatam rempublicam Cicero Octauio 5. Bellar. de con author l. 2. c. 7. fol. 119. Why cannot Bellar. mine tell wherof S. Aug. speaketh quasi matrimonio habent dotatum Augustinum As though S. Augustine were giueÌ„ to them in marriage and all men else shut from him and so they vse him The Iesuite Bellarmine according to the manner of his aunswering commeth in with two or three fortès peraduenture he speaketh of this peraduenture he speaketh of that and yet neuer hitteth the right peradventure To the authoritie I answere first saith he Perhaps S. Augustine speaketh of vnlawfull councells which are amended by others after that are lawfull as it hapned to the 2 Ephesine counsel 6. De questionibus facti non iuris which was amended in the Chalcedon Secondly it he spake of lawfull counsels then saith hee hee speaketh of matters of fact and not of right in such kind of questions it is out of doubt that a couÌ„sel maie erre for the principal questioÌ„ of the Catholike with the Donatists was about one Caecilianus whether hee had deliuered the scriptures into the handes of the heretikes or not And it may bee aunswered by a thirde waie saith he if our aduersaries contend That S. Augustine speaketh generally of al questions when he saith That former councells may be amended by later that then he speaketh of precepts of maners and not of questions of Faith for precepts are changed according to times places persons and those changings are called amendings not that the thinge was before ill but that it began to bee ill the circumstances being changed And both these answeres are confirmed by the words of Augustine when he saith that then Counsells are amended when by some experience that is opened which was hid questions of matters of fact or of maners not al questisoÌ„ of right are opened by experiment Thus far Bellarmine