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A56638 A continuation of the Friendly debate by the same author. Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707.; Wild, Robert, 1609-1679.; Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707. Friendly debate between a conformist and a non-conformist. 1669 (1669) Wing P779; ESTC R7195 171,973 266

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an enemy As for Mr. W. B. I confess ingenuously I said a little the more of him because you have been too long gull'd by such pretenders to Mysteries and Spirituality Yet I do not think I said enough but ought to have told you plainly that he is one of the principal Impostors that have perverted the Truth as it is in Jesus and adulterated the Christian Religion in this Nation He spoiles almost all the Holy Scripture he meddles withal and turns it into an idle tale of these times and makes it say whatsoever it pleases him and his Proselytes to hear Which when I seriously consider I cannot but say with a little alteration as one doth on another occasion to his Countreymen That it is a shame there are laws against those who counterfeit Coynes and falsify Merchandizes yet such are permitted who Sophisticate our Divinity and corrupt the Holy Scriptures and turn our Religion into a new fancy and device of their own The late great Plague is but of small consideration in compare with this mischief and if speedy order be not taken the multiplying of such Authors will make a Library as big as London wherein there shall scarcely be found one wise Sentence or reasonable Conceit N.C. It 's thought Sir by some that you are much mistaken in making him the Author of that Book which you reprove since it bears only the two first Letters of Mr. Bridge his name And I have heard you blam'd for charging him with those things which he hath not own'd C. I think rather those Apologists are mistaken For why doth he not disown it if it be not his Book since it contains such dangerous things Or why did not the Preface to another Book since stoln into the world and carrying his name in the front of it inform us that this was genuine and the other Spurious But if he had there are very few that would have believ'd him For they are as like each other as two pieces of Cloth that are of the same Wool the same thred the same colour working and bredth There is the very same Canting in both the same abuse of Holy Scripture the same Spiritual pride and contempt of others the same evil speaking and seditious Doctrines and in one word the way and Spirit of Mr. Bridge N.C. Why do you jeer I know you allude to the Title of one of those Ten Sermons which he calls The Way and Spirit of the New Testament C. I do so And am better able to describe his Way and Spirit than he to set out that N.C. I think you had better forbear such Comparisons C. Pray let me try a little It will both divert us a while and not prove unprofitable Turn I pray you to the fifth Sermon at your leisure and tell me when you have compar'd our Conceits P. 371. c. whether of us do better First I say the way and Spirit of Mr. Bridge is not as he would have it a Childlike but a Childish Spirit A way and Spirit that hath nothing manly nothing of the ancient Christian sense and Spirit in it but abounds with Phrases trifling observations and perpetual Tautologies And yet thinks it self most gorgeously bedeck't with Gospel Truths Dispensations Manifestations Discoveries and I know not how many other glorious things besides Secondly it is not a fearing but a fearless Spirit dareing to talk of God our Saviour in the boldestand rudest terms taking a kind of Pride in inventing new and monstrous Expressions and spiritualizing Religion into airy fancies Thirdly The way and Spirit of Mr. B. is not an understanding but a Non-sensical Spirit An instance of which is this that it hath no certain rule whereby to measure the love of God But sometimes it made successes a great argument of Gods regard to them and now it tells us that the Crosses are a mark of it and that the Children of God must be persecuted by the World Fourthly The way and Spirit of Mr. B. is to trade much or most or altogether with fancies and Dreams N.C. Pray do not say so C. You may put it in other words if you please and say it trades with absolute Promises But that 's the same for they are no better than dreams and fancies Fifthly In the old time men examined and considered what they believed and came to Faith by rational discourse But now in the dayes of Mr. B. Men are taught to believe they know not why and Reason is decryed as an enmity to the things of God Sixthly In the old times Christians were of a modest and humble Spirit but the way of Mr. B. is to teach them to be high and confident and to imagine great Discoveries and Revelations to be made to them And therefore they wrong'd Mr. Edwards very much when they said his Gangraena was full of lies because he told strange stories of men that pretended to have had Revelations and seen Visions for we find Mr. B. is one of them Seventhly In the old time Humility Purity Righteousness and Charity were held to be things most dear to God but now in the way and Spirit of Mr. B. we can hear no tidings of them For he can tell us but of three things that are dear to him His People his Truth and his Worship These are his Plate his fewels his Treasure as I told you the last time out of one of his Ten Serm. But you must know it is not a new discovery but an old and darling Notion of his which I find in his Sermon before the Parliament 29. Nov. 1643. There he tells us Three things God loves more specially His People his Truth and his worship And it is a beloved conceit I perceive among the party for one of his Brethren delivered it to the Parliament before him told them in a peremptory manner excluding all other things Mr. Tho. Goodwins serm of Apr. 27. 1642. p. 31. God hath but three things dear to him in the World the Saints his Worship and his Truth But which of these he loves best he could not tell for God therefore ordained Saints to be in the World that he might be Worship't and appointed Ordinances of Worship as means to build up his Saints Some honest old Christian would have told this great Divine if he had heard him you trouble your self Sir about needless Questions There is something God loves better than all these viz. Holines all Moral vertue For in truth there are no Saints or people of God but only in name without these Take away these and the most Orthodox Notions that can be in your head will make you no better than a Devil Nor will the exactest worship according to the purest Ordinances fail to be an Abomination to the Lord if these be absent But I forget my self The way and Spirit of Mr. B. is not to talk of any thing else but pure Worship pure Ordinances Gospel Administrations and such like matters upon
therefore it was not amiss to hear him As for the rest I should not have troubled you with their conjectures had it not been to let you see First what they think of us whom they call the Antichristian the Popish party the Gentiles and Nations the followers of the Dragon and such like Names Secondly what they think themselves who are in their own esteem the Witnesses of Christ Jesus the Godly party the Saints that are to rule the Nations with a rod of Iron the followers of the Lamb who are to ascend to Heaven the Seat of Justice and do execution upon us Lastly What a Sandy Foundation their hopes are built upon and how confident they are and well perswaded of themselves without any cause at all And that indeed is the chiefest thing I aimed at To make you sensible they have no ground for that high opinion they have conceiv'd of their own wisdom and insight into the things of God they being blindly lead by their own Imaginations and passionate Desires while they think they understand and see more than all the Wise men in the World So the last man but one that I named brag'd and vapoured glorying that he had found out that truth which none of the wicked should understand neither Priest nor Prophet Rulers nor Seers All is hid and covered from them and the reason is because they drank of the Cup of the Whore of which if a man take but one Sip he is utterly incapable to have the Visions or mysteries made known to him And therefore he triumphs in this manner over all our Nobles and Clergy Who will beleive of all our great men and learned Prelates that Jesus Christ is come in the Clouds of Heaven and is set down upon the Throne of Judicature in his Saints and Witnesses to judg that man of sin No indeed they had more wit And yet this the man thought in his self-conceited Wisdom to be as clear as the Sun N. C. I am fully satisfied that they were much out of the way And therefore more words are needless C. That the way you might have said and Spirit of Mr. Bridg is mostly and chiefly to be out of the way N. C. I leave those conceits to you C. And you will leave it to me also for you take no notice of it to tell you the cause of all this N. C. Because I do not know it C. It 's easy to see that is nothing else but their pride and vain conceit of themselves as if God would reveal all his secrets to them and hide them from others For they are the Watch-men upon the Tower the Embassadors of Christ the Angels of the Churches the Lords Worthies And they that follow them are the Holy ones the Dear people of God the little Flock the Lambs of Christ the Meek of the Earth the Redeemed ones and the Remnant of Jacob. Nay as soon as ever any person comes to hear them preach they hope there is a work of Grace in their hearts and that they begin to savour the things of God and to desire the sincere Milk of the Word As for our Ministers Alas poor Creatures they are the False Prophets blind Guides Idol Shepherds that have eyes indeed but cannot see at all And our people are the World the Wicked the children of the Evil one Enemies of God and such as remain still in Egypt At least the vail is before our eyes or we have taken a sip of the Cup of the Whore and that sends up such fumes into our heads that we cannot possibly discern the mysteries of God Hence it is that the meanest of you takes himself to be wiser than the best of us than any of our Bishops and Priests nay the whole Clergy put together And if we will not have such a man in the same esteem that he hath himself presently we are lookt upon as enemies of the power of Godliness formal fellows or meer moralists that hate the true seed N. C. Doth not David tell us that God had made him wiser than any of his Teachers C. See how you still equal your selves with men inspired From which vain conceit and arrogant Opinion I make no doubt it is that you take every sudden fancy and strong imagination that comes into your head to be an Inspiration of God And that you are so adventurous and bold in expounding the Holy Scriptures as if it were given you in that moment as it was the Apostles what you should think and what you should speak Nay so deep have you drunk of this Witches Cup and are so intoxicated with self-conceit and self-love that you imagine all your Devices and forms of Religion and Government must be received by all the world For your mind is the mind of God and your words the Oracles of God So even Mr. Edwards himself seems to fancy Epistle before his Antapolog when he exhorts all people that were waving and hung doubtful between Presbytery and Independency to wait upon God in that way of his and Assembly of so many learned and Godly men to see What he will be pleased to speak by them N. C. What is this to all the World were they bound also to listen to what this Oracle would utter C. You are too quick I was going to add that as they think themselves the best people here so the best in the world and look upon the Reformation it self as needing a Reformation And therefore hoped that if they setled Religion among us according to their mind there would be a pattern from the Word set up in this Island for an example to all other kirks abroad Thus the Commissioners of the general Assembly of the Kirk of Scotland tell us * Directions to Ministers anent Malignants p. 12. and therefore call upon the Ministers to stir up themselves and the people in Truth and Unity because say they it will be a powerful means to preserve our Religion and to propagate the same to other Churches groaning under their several burdens and panting for such a Reformation as the Lord in Mercy hath granted us And accordingly they indicted the Fast I told you of on the Lords-day for the promoting Unity in Religion and Uniformity in Government and the advancing the Kingdom of Christ i. e. their Discipline every where N. C. None excepted C. No. For Mr. Case tells the Commissioners of the General Assembly * Epistle before his book called The quarrel of the Covenant dedicated to them that God had honoured their Nation in making them the first fruits and pattern of a thorough and Covenant-Reformation to us and all the rest of the Christian World And withal sayes I am humbly confident that the same shore shall not bound this Covenant which bounds the now two Covenanting-Nations But as it is said of the Gospel so it will be Verified of this Gospel-Covenant The Sound thereof shall go into all the Earth and the Words of it to
one of your Ministers was that he went to live under the Gospel And when they inquired of the welfare of their Friends the current Phrase was How do the Christians of such a Town According to the import of which language Mr. Bridge takes the boldness to call us Gentiles in the eares of the House of Commons * Fast Serm. Nov. 29. 1643. telling them that the Horns the Kings party may push and scatter for a time but the Carpenters viz. the Parliament shall fray them away and cast out these Gentiles And another bold Writer * Paraenetick to the Parl. and Assembly for Liberty 1644. tells them that the Army had often put the Armies of the Aliens to flight and therefore must be considered Nay he is so profane as to say take heed of resisting the Holy-Ghost for that mighty works have been done by these men you cannot deny p. 12. Miracles it seems were revived again to convince us who were either poor Legalists or Heathen Idolaters Yea God did by a continued series of Miracles and wonders if you will believe the Rump of the Parliament * Declar. of 27. Sept. 1649. exalt his name in the eyes of this and neighbor Nations by their means But alas we were the most reprobate and hard hearted of all other Aliens that could not be converted Vncircumcised Philistines in Mr. Case's language Nay Amalekites with whom the Lord would have war for ever N. C. Now you grosly abuse them C. Read the Preface to Mr. W. Bridges his Sermon * Preacht before the House of Com. Febr. 22. 1642. and judge whether I be guilty of that fault or no. N. C. What doth he say C. He tells you that the business of Christs Kingdom is lookt upon by the squint-eyed multitude under an Hexapla of considerations N. C. What 's an Hexapla C. Nay you must not trouble your self about his phrase for he tells you in the conclusion of that preface It is such as I can speak and I desire to be thankful it is no worse considering my deserts N. C. Well then let 's hear it as bad as it is C. After he hath done with the Theological the Historical and the Legal he comes to the fourth consideration which is Critical And what 's that think you N. C. You would not let me ask Questions and therefore I 'le make no answer to yours C. You would never guess if you did nor can the most Critical of you all tell why he gave it that name for it is only this My money shall never help to kill men To which he Answers well if you hinder the killing quelling of those who would both kill and quell us ours our Religion Kingdom you become friends of Gods enemies and ours and resolve to make peace with them with whom God hath resolved to have war Exod. 17. ult What think you now did not this man look upon us as Amalekites and wish the Servants of the living God to whom he addresses his Hexapla of considerations would have war with us eternally Do you not see what is like to become of us if men of this Spirit have Power again proportionable to their Will must not our name be blotted out and must not he be accursed that doth the work of the Lord negligently N. C. I pray no more Questions C. And then all your Victories will be called once more the return of prayers which you take to be as powerful as the lifting up of Moses his hands And all the Miseries which befal us the day of the Lords vengeance for the blood of his faithful servants For I must tell you another effect of your Pride is N. C. Do not put me among that number C. Their pride then is to think every favour that is done them to be their due and so they are bound to thank no body for it God they fancy makes the wicked serve them and causes them to do that for their sake which they had no intention to do And on the contrary if any justice be done upon any of themselves presently it is voted persecution cruelty enmity to the People of God and hatred of his Truth and Ways But let them exercise never so great oppression tyranny and cruelty upon their Neighbors it shall be cryed up as zeal for God and his cause Love to justice and pure Religion at least excused as a fulfilling the Decrees of the Almighty spoiling the Egyptians and acting for the Lord in the day of Vengeance N. C. This is your time and so you may say what you will against Christ's witness-bearing people while they are in their sackcloth condition It is now only their witnessing time but C. But what Why do you make a stop N. C. The times will mend and the Witnessing time they say will be over C. You would have me think then that you speak their sense not your own But I perceive you are a little taken with those new Phrases of the Witnessing time and witnessing work As indeed it was alway the humor of your party if a noted man invented an unusual Phrase presently to form their mouths to that new mode of speaking Just like a pack of Hounds that when one begins to open immediately all sollow and almost deafen one with the noise When a Preacher for instance from that text David served his Generation by the will of God raised this impertinent Observation That it is our duty to mind Generation-work instantly all Pulpits sounded with this Doctrine of Generation-work That was the phrase in those days In so much that you should hear both Minister and people bewailing it in their prayers that they had not minded Generation-work more Which made some good innocent souls that were not acquainted with the secret blush when they first heard it and wonder what they meant And to say the truth that was a hard matter to tell For the Presbyterians I think meant nothing but reforming according to the Covenant the Lord having given them such an Opportunity as the General Assembly speak in their Answer * Presented 25. Aug. 1642. to the Declaration of the Parliament of England Where they tell them that when the Supreme Providence gives opportunity of the accepted time and the Day of Salvation no other work can prosper in the hands of his servants if it be not apprehended and with all reverence and faithfulness improved And withall they add This Kirk when the Lord gave them the calling considered not their own deadness nor staggered at the promise through unbelief but gave glory to God And who knows but the Lord hath now some controversie with England which will not be removed till first and before all the Worship of his name and the Government of his house be setled according to his will This was their Generation-work But others meant by this Phrase the pulling down every thing that they imagin'd Antichristian Presbytery and all And some went so far as to
superfluous thing upon another No set Form can content it no limits or bounds can hold it but it is still inventing something new to please your selves and others and then you fancy God is pleased because you are I know you have a conceit that you keep your selves within the limits of the Word and that you dare not for a world stir beyond the confines which God prescribes But this only makes your Ignorance appear the more gross as I will plainly shew you N. C. I guess by what you said the last time whereabouts you will be but it will turn us too much out of our way to enter into that discourse at this time C. Well then I l'e let it alone till you give another occasion And the rather because I would have you go as soon as may be and ask what Will-worship is That 's another word in these Witnesses mouths of as much efficacy and as little sense as all the rest for when they are angry they charge one another with it as well as us The Independents were wont to say that it was Will-worship to set up the office of Ruling Elders in the Church And I can shew you one that calls the Church-Covenant requiring men to give some signs of grace and all the way of Admission of Members into Independent Congregations by the very same Name And therefore I believe you will soon leave such to wrangle it out and go and ask some others what they mean to bawl so against Forms But I believe there is not one of a thousand can give a reason why he may not as well accuse the whole frame of Nature as our Liturgy upon this account Especially if you tell him that there is nothing in Heaven or Earth but hath a Form That when we understand it is by forming some conceptions in our Mind and that we form our Speech or words to make our conceptions understood by others And therefore even your Prayers must be in a Form or else they are sensless stuff a meer noise and sound that no body can understand N. C. We are only against set Forms C. And so many of your Prayers have none at all but are then thought most heavenly when they are most confused and to have much of God in them when they have nothing of Man For the common word is I like not Forms c. He still sticks in Forms He is a dull formal man Which are Phrases as set and stinted as our Prayers They are never out of use but repeated an hundred times a day No repetitions they think are bad but only of the same Prayers nor any other constant Forms unlawful no not of railing and reviling but only those of Divine Service These they leave to the wicked and take the other to themselves N. C. Pray do not say so C. I must say more than that They hate a Form of Prayer but love to pray in these reviling forms of speech For they tell God how a Superstitious and Antichristian way of worship hath justled out his own Institutions That men worship the Graven Images of their own inventions That Gebal Ammon and Amalek are risen up against them And the people are taught to go and spread their anger and threatnings before the Lord And to tell him that it is an angry time a persecuting time a day of great wrath abundance of anger and wrath Seasonable Truths p. 180 182 184. and hatred and malice in the bearts of men against the people of God at this day Or as Mr. B. * Now his language is in another place Popish men have laid their net privily for us and we may go to Christ and say * Fulness of Christ p. 37. Lord pull us out of the net that they have laid for us for thou art our strength And for any thing I can see much of that they call the Power of Prayer consists in such Forms as these N. C. Alas You know not what that power is C. I know it is just such another word as Form which they use without any certain-sense as they are wont to do the Apostles words concerning a Form of Godliness without the Power of it This Form of Godliness if you will believe some is Praying by a set Form * Answer of the Ministers of New Engl. to the first Position p. 2. and then the Power of Godliness must be praying without one N. C. It cannot be C. It is as I tell you And this is one of the reasons that the world hate the Saints for that the Saints are a praying people You must not mistake Forms of Prayer they can indure Seasona Truths p. 168. but the Power of Prayer they cannot bear They are Mr. B. his words N. C. No indeed not if it consist of such railing language as you speak of But neither you nor I it 's like apprehend his meaning C. Do you know what he means when he gives this for another reason of the hatred of the world to the Saints that they destroy their Gods destroy their Idols Men of all things cannot endure to have their Gods destroyed now the people of God do destroy the Gods of the wicked no wonder therefore that they are so provok't against the Saints and people of God Ib. p. 167. N. C. Not I. C. Then you are very dull He means our Worship which they are wont to rail upon in those terms also calling it Idolatry worshipping the Golden Calves and setting up new Gods which are such rude and beastly Clamours that I am loth to foul my mouth with naming them They are only vile and abominable Phrases which every Ignorant wretch can serve himself of when he lists to reproach his Neighbours At first the Presbyterians called Conformity to the Innovations as they were stiled by them Worshipping the Golden Calves Afterward the Independents called the Directory the Golden Calves of Jeroboam Edw. Gangr 1 part p. 36.52 and affirm'd that this order to help in the way of Worship was a breach of the second Commandment Nay Mr. Burton one of the Witnesses said that to make a Law about Religion was to set up the Golden Calves or Nebuch adnezzar's Image Or if you will have another Phrase for it to chuse new Gods and then was war in the Gates Ib. p. 25. as an Independent Preacher said at Chester when they were about to chuse Lay-Elders But to be even with them the Presbyterians threw those Phrases back again in their faces and askt the five Brethren Is the Golden Calf of Independency and Democracy come out of it self without Aarons making it And in conclusion one Web as the same man tells us called the Scripture it self that Golden Calf and Brazen Antapologia p. 188. Serpent which set at variance King and Parliament and Kingdom against Kingdom and said Things would never do well till the Golden Calf and Brazen Serpènt were beaten in pieces * No wonder therefore