Not that hee woorshipped the staffe but him that helde it in a signe of loue Then alleaging the brasen Serpent and the Cherubins made by Moses Salomon hee descendeth to other testimonâ—es of Esay and Dauid as sitte for his purpose as salt for sore eyes Esai sayth In those dayes there shal be an altar vnto the Lorde in the mydst of the Lande of Egypt and a pillour touching the ends therof and it shall be for a signe and a testimonie to the Lord in the land of Egypt And Dauid the tuner of Psalmes sayth confession and beautie before him And againe Lord I haue loued the comlynes of thine house And againe Thy face Lord wil I seeke And againe the rich among the people shall bowe themselues before thy face And againe the light of thy countenance is signed vpon vs. These bee the best proofes which Adrian or hee that framed this letter in Adrians name could finde in all the Scriptures for the making and adoring of images and these you see bee very miserable For what fellowship hath Adams act Abels sacrifice Noahs or Abrahams altar Iacobs stone and staffe Esaies title or pillour with images or when Dauid spake of the face and countenance of God did he so much as dreame of the grauen and woodden figures which you would erect vnto God against his heauenly will and trueth Phi. In deed these places be not altogether so pertinent as we could wish theÌ„ but the brasen serpent the two Cherubins which Moses set vp directly make for Images Theo. They doe not warrant your erecting of Images and your adoring of Images they vtterly ouerthrow For the Brasen serpent was a figure of Christ as we find confirmed by his owne wordes in the gospell of S. Iohn and yet though God commaunded Moses to make it and healed the dreadfull plague of the people by it and the Iewes had kept it aboue 700. yeres as a monument of Gods mercie toward them in the desert when they beganne but to burne incense to it Ezechiah the religious King of Iudah brake it in peeces and is commanded by the holie Ghost namely for that act This example wee would haue you aduisedly to marke A figure of Christ erected by Gods owne commaundement and seruing to put al Israels posteritie in minde of the wonders which their fathers saw in the wildernesse when it was abused was defaced and the fact allowed by Gods owne mouth Hence we conclude that the painted and carued Images of Christ himselfe may not be adored and if they be they may be remoued though they were deliuered euen by the Apostles as yours were not The Cherubines were made by Gods appointment but not set in any place for the people to adore them or so much as to see them nay the Priests themselues were kept from the sight of them only the high-Priest once euery yere went into the second Tabernacle where they stoode the vaile being closely drawen betweene that and the first Tabernacle where the rest of the Priests serued And since Gods care was so great that they should not be seene wee inferre his will was as cleare that they should not be worshipped for so much as they could not be worshipped vnlesse they were seene Phi. Yet this sheweth that God would haue them made Theo. But not seen much lesse worshipped And as for the making of them Gods act aboue his Law is no warrant for you to breake his Law By his Law he restraineth you not himselfe from the making of any such similitudes And therefore though he might for causes to him knowen goe against his Law you may not This rule Tertullian will teach you It is no hurt that the same God by his Law forbade a similitude to be made and by an extraordinary precept commaunded the similitude of the brasen serpent to be made If thou wilt obay God thou hast his law make thee no similitude If thou looke to the precept that was giuen after for making a similitude then see thou imitate Moses Make no Image against the law vnlesse God bid thee as he did Moses Phi. The fathers who knew the Scriptures as well as you were of an other minde as you may see by Adrians letters auouching many and good authorities out of them Theo. Adrian dealeth with the fathers as hee did with the Scriptures Eight of them he alleageth and abuseth euerie one of them Augustine saith The Image of God what is it but the face of God in which the people of God are signed And Ambrose when we worship in Christ the diuine Image and Crosse do we part him in sunder The diuine Image and countenance which these fathers speake of is the brightnes of Christes diuine nature and glorie his crosse is his death and humilitie those Adrian grossely supposeth to be such as grauers caruers doe make with their hands And where Cyril saith Faith painteth or liuely describeth vnto vs the worde which was in the forme of God that euidence clearenes of the Gospell setting the sonne of God in his diuine maiestie before our eyes your holy father lewdly misconstereth for painting with pencils and coulours Athanasius Chrysostome and Basil drawing similitudes from the painters art and Emperours Image to other purposes are violently wrested to make for that they neuer ment nor thought Gregory Nissene confesseth he had often seen the storie of the passion pictured but he neither saith in Churches nor alloweth it any worshippe Hierom is brought in last and made to say that which not only no learned father euer vttered but no sober nor Christian man euer imagined As God gaue leaue to the Gentils to worshippe things made with hands and to the Iewes to worshippe the carued workes and two golden cherubins which Moses made so hath hee giuen to vs Christians the Crosse and to paint and reuerence the Images of good workes and so to get him to like of our labour The two first pointes that God gaue leaue to the Gentils to worshippe things made with hands and licenced the Iewes to adore the woorkes and shapes of Cherubins which Moses made are so directly against the trueth of the Scriptures and rule of our faith that nothing can be more the last may well bee written by him that wrate the first and as soone true as the rest And were it found in Hieroms workes as it is not it would but argue that other mens hands had beene in Hieroms bookes as well as his which is no newes in the most of the Fathers Greeke and Latine that you haue left vs at this day But of that paines Adrian himselfe hath eased vs by alleaging that which is not in all S. Hieromes volumes Amidst the route of these follies and forgeries commeth in that Bastard place of Basil no where found in all his writings which besides the apparant slander there
after the same sort the blood of christ euen so the sacrament of faith meaning thereby baptisme is saith We he buried saith Paul with christ through baptism into his death Hâ— saith not we signifie that his burial but he saith plainly we 〈…〉 The sacrameÌ„t of so great a thing he would not cal but by the 〈…〉 thing it self Upon this verie ground be concluded as you heard 〈…〉 Lâ—â—d doubted not not to say this my body when he gaue the signe of his body What maâ—uell then if the catholike Fathers vsed often the names of the body blood of Christ where the materiall elementes of bread and wine must be vnderstood since this is the certaine rule of al sacraments and the common order of all ancient diuines writing of the Lordes supper to call the giftes proposed at the Lordes table the body and blood of Christ. The wilfull contempt of which obseruation hath miserably snared and hampered you and your fellowes euerie where referring and forcing that to the naturall fleshe of Christ which by the learned and godly fathers was spoken and ment of the visible signes called by the names of the body and blood of Christ. The second thing that you sticke at is the substance of bread which we say remaineth and abideth as well after consecration as before You wil haue it either vanish to nothing or else to bee turned and conuerted into the very fleshe of Christ there present God maÌ„ vnder the whitenes roundnes such like shewes appearances of bread left only to content the sight and palate least the raw flesh of Christ should displease your eyes or offend your tast This is your doctrine and this we say is not catholike The church of Christ neuer held that the substance of bread perished or ceased after consecration it is a late deuise you can bring no father that is ancient for this assertion they neuer taught they neuer heard they neuer dreampt any such thinges They taught that the mysticall signes were creatures well knowen not straunge and miraculous accidentes that the substance of bread was not changed but remained still after consecration and this they taught in as plaine words as heart can imagine or tongue expresse lette the Reader bee iudge if I â—aye not the truth Gelasius an ancient Bishop of Rome for his antiquitie reuerenced of vs for his place not to be refused of you writeth thus against Eutiches The sacraments which we receiue of the body blood of Christ are a diuine thing by them are we made partakers of the diuine nature yet for all that ceaseth not the substance or nature of bread wine to be Theodoret The mystical signes do not after sanctification depart from their own nature for they remaine in their former substance figure forme Ambrose Thou camest to the altar â—awest the sacraments theron wonderest at the very creature yet it is a â—olemn known creature Ireneus Christ counseling or willing his disciples to offer to God the first fruits of those creatures tooke that bread which is a creature gaue thankes saying this is my body We must therefore in all thinges be found thankefull to God the creator offering the first fruits of those creatures which be his and this oblation the Church onely maketh in puritie to the creatour offering to him of his own creatures with thankes giuing Origen The Lords bread according to the material partes thereof goeth into the belly and thence to the draught so that it is not the matter of breade that doeth proâ—itte the râ—ceiuer but the worde rehearsed ouer it Epiphanius That which our Sauiour our tooke in his hand and saide this is my body wee see to bee neither proportional nor like to his image in flesh nor his inuisible Deity for this is of a round figure hath no power of sense but our Lord wee knowe to bee wholy sense wholy sensitiue Cyprian Since the Lord said do this in my remembraÌ„ce this is my flesh this is my blood as often as with these words this faith we do that he did this substantial bread cup sanctified with a solemn blessing is profiâ—able for the life safegard of the whole man being both a medicine to heal our infirmities a sacrifice to clense our iniquities Chrysostom After coÌ„secration it is deliuered from the name of bread reputed worthy to be called the Lords body nothwithstanding the nature of bread still remaine Austen These things are therefore called Sacramentes because in them one thing is seen an other thing vnderstood That which is seen speciem habet corporalem hath a corporal shape or kind that which is vnderstood hath a spiritual fruit This is of al other a miserable seruitude of the soule to mistake the signes for the things themselues not to be able to lift vp the eye of the minde aboue the corporall creature to behold the light that is eternall The councell of Constantinople Christ commaunded the whole substaunce of breade chosen for his image to bee set on his table least if it resembled the shape of a man idolatrie might bee committed Bertram The signes as touching the substances of the creatures are the same after consecration which they were before Can you looke for plainer or directer witnesses Do they not all ioyne together in one profession and succession of truth that the mysticall signes after consecration be knowen corporal and senselesse creatures abiding in their proper and former yea their whole nature and substance Be not these wordes significant and pregnant directly conâ—uting your reall inclosing and corporall eaâ—ing of Christ vnder the shewes and accidentes of bread and wine The third thing that I saide was to bee considered in the elementes of bread and wine is their power and operation For since the substance of the creatures is not chaunged the signes coulde not iustly beare the names of the thinges them-selues except â—â—e vertue power and â—ffect of Christs fleshe and bloode were adioyned to them and vnited with them after a secrete and vnspeakable manner by the working of the holy Ghost in such sort that whosoeuer duelie receiueth the signe is vndoubtedly partaker of the grace offered vnto all but inioyed onely by those that with fayth and repentance clense the inward man from that corruption of flesh spirit which Christ abhorreth Cyprian of Sacraments in generall writeth thus To the elements once sanctified not now their owne nature giueth effect but the diuine vertue worketh in them more mightily the trueth is present with the signe and the spirit with the Sacrament so that the worthines of the grace appeareth by the verie efficiencie of the things Of the Lordes Supper in speciall thus he saith b There is giuen the foode of immortalitie differing from commoÌ„ meates Corporalis substantiae etmens speciem retaining the kind or truth
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather
their mutuall consents for the suppressing of errors that dayly sprang when generall Councels coulde not bee called In which case the Bishop of Rome both in respect of his Citie that was Imperiall and his See that was Apostolicall vsed to receiue the first letters Phi. The Councell of Carthage writeth thus to Innocentius Hoc itaque gestum charitati tuae intimandum duximus vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur auctoritas pro tuenda salute multorum That which was done we thought good to intimate to your charitie that to the decrees of our meannesse the authoritie of your Apostolike See might be added for the sauing of many from infection Theo. First they for their partes decreed against Pelagius without the Bishop of Rome next they seeke the consent of the Bishop of Rome not to make that good which they had done but to preuaile the rather with many that were out of their Prouince Error ipse impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiam auctoritate Apostolicae sedis anathematizanda est This error and impietie which hath so many fauorers dispersed in so many places had neede be condemned by the credit and authoritie of your Apostolike See Phi. Innocentius saith they did but their dueties Theo. A man might soone intreate Innocentius to take enough vpon him and yet the worst he saith is this Arbitror omnes fratres Episcopos nostros quoties fidei ratio ventilatur non nisi ad Petrum id est sui nominis honoris authorem referre debere velut nunc retulit vestra dilectio I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops when any matter of faith is in question ought to referre the same to none but to Peter the author of their office and honor as now your kindnesse hath done Where by referring to Peter he did not meane as you do that all faith and Religion should depende on the Popes sleeue but that when they had concluded as they saw cause they should giue him intelligence to this ende that he might cōcur with them for the better repressing of heresie with full consent Now that which Innocentius made but a thought of you since that time proclaime for a Gospell Phi. Innocentius would not thinke so without some ground Theo. Thoughts are weake proofes when the case is our owne And Innocentius Epistles in answere of these two Councels Erasmus noteth for want of words wit and learning requisit for so great a Prelate Phi. Erasmus is very bolde with the Fathers Theo. Your decretall Epistles be euen such for the most part mary that is not to this purpose Basill is the next man in your beadrole who called as you say for helpe of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie but can you tell vs where we shall finde all these thinges that you affirme Phi. In his Epistles Theo. There be foure or fiue Epistles of his written to the West Bishops in general and to the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce for succor and helpe where the Bishop of Rome perhaps is included as one amongst the rest but neuer intreated nor so much as named asunder from the rest And here may you learne of Basill the cause why good men being oppressed in the East Church by the craft and power of heretikes or enimies sought to the West for ayde and assistance Not that they tooke the Bishop of Rome for supreme Iudge of all doubts and doctrines as left in Christs steede but that the number concorde of the West Bishops might temper and hinder the malice of their aduersaries and bring their quarels to be decided in an open and euen Councell So Basill aduiseth Athanasius to do For the experience that I haue had in things I know this to be the only way to get help that our Churches are linked with the West Bishops For if they will readily shew the same zeal for our Coūtries which they did against one or two that were diffamed in the West perhaps somwhat wil be done that shall generally profit all whereby those that are in authority may be moued to reuerence their number the people euery where wil follow thē without contradiction And Basil himself writing to thē As much cōfort helpe as you can saith he delay not to yeeld to the distressed and afflicted Churches As we thinke the concord vnitie which you enioy there among your selues to be our own happines so ought you to labor with vs in these dissentions which assault vs. If then there be any comfort of loue if any communion of the spirit if any bowels of pitie be moued to helpe vs take ye the zeale of godlines deliuer vs from this tempest And describing at large the miserable state of the Churches thereabout The principles of godlines saith he be ouerthrowen the rites of religion peruerted faith it selfe in daunger godlie preachers put to silence euery blasphemous mouth is open holy thinges are prophaned and those that are sound amōg the people flee the house of prayers as in the which impietie is published Therefore while yet some stand before a perfect and full shipwrack oppresse the Church hastē vnto vs hasten at the lēgth yet What you shall do to help vs we neede not tell you but onely this that you must make speed the presence of many brethren will be requisite for this matter to this end that they which come may make a full and iust Synode This is the chiefest thing that we require that by your meanes the troubles of our coūtries may be knowen to the Emperours own person or if that be hard that some of you come to see comfort the afflicted The thinges that we spake many suspect as proceeding of priuate contention you the farther you dwel off the more credit you haue with the people If therfore many of you with one consent shal decree the same it is euident that the verie number of you concurring in one minde with vs shall cause all men to receiue this doctrine without any doubting You see what helpe Basill asked of the West Bishops making no mention of the Bishop of Rome but praying them all to ioyne togither and to shewe their zeales for the truth either by meeting in a ful Synod for the condēnation of such errors as were newly risen in the church or by writing their letters to the East Bishops that the teachers embracers of those impieties should be seuered frō the communion of the faithfull vntill their amendment The redresse of these things we seeke for at your hands the which you shall performe if it please you to write to all the East Churches that those which in this sort haue corrupted the doctrine of truth be then admitted to the communiō when they correct their errors if they will not be brought from this innouation but frowardly continue the same
Phi. It may Theo. Should corrupt false Religion be displaced banished and the spredders of it dispersed skattered Phi. In any case Theo. Ought malefactors against God as heretikes blasphemers sorcerers idolaters such other transgressours of the first table to be reuenged and punished as well as offenders against men and the breakers of the second table Phi. What else Theo. Can any man freely permit safely defend generally restrayne and externally punish within a realme but onely the Prince Phi. None Theo. Then if these things needfully must and lawfully may bee done for Christ and his Church none can doe them but Magistrates it is euident that the Princes power charge doth stretch vnto thinges causes that bee spirituall as well as temporall Or if S. Austens wordes do better please you that Princes may command that which is good and prohibite that which is euill within their kingdomes not in ciuile affaires onely but in matters also that concerne diuine Religion Phi. Did the Christian Princes in the primatiue Church since the cōming of Christ commaund punish in matters Ecclesiasticall Theo. If their examples do not concur with my former proofes good leaue haue you to beleeue neither if they do take heede you withstand not a manifest truth And here you shal choose whether you will haue a short report or a large rehearsal of their doings Socrates touching them all saith We therefore make mention of Emperors throughout this historie for that since they became Christians Ecclesiastical matters depend on them the greatest Synods haue been and are yet called by their appointment And Alciat a man of your own side Nemim dubiū est quin in primatiua ecclesia de rebus personis ecclesiast c. THERE CAN BE NO DOVBT saith he but in the primatiue Church Emperors had the iurisdiction that is the ruling and gouerning of persons and causes Ecclesiasticall Ius dicere referred to Princes is not to decide matters in question by law for so did Iudges not Princes but to make lawes and betweene lawmakers gouernors you can find litle difference for by publike lawes commāding good punishing euil princes do chiefly gouerne Then if christian Monarks in the primatiue church guided ecclesiastical matters persons by their imperiall lawes as this learned famous lawier putteth vs out of doubt they did you must shew when how they forfeited this power If it were thē lawful vsual how can it be now strange vsurped If there be no doubt of this with what cōscience do you not doubt but deny this Perhaps you disdaine the witnesse Alciat in euery respect was well learned in his faculty which was law deserueth more credit than the best of you yet least I should seeme to presse you with names not with proofes let vs view the proceedings of some Christiā Emperors and iudge you whether they be not both ancient and euident What power Constantine claimed vsed in causes ecclesiasticall the foure books of Eusebius other church stories describing the lawes letters acts of Cōstantine beare witnes sufficient First he gaue the christiās free liberty to professe their religion built them places of praier at his own charges entreated their bishops with all possible fauor honor Next he prohibited the gentiles their ancient vsual idolatries diuinatiōs oracles images sacrifices Heretiks he debarred not only churches secret conuents but excluded them also from the priuileges which him-selfe had prouided for Catholike persons If Constantines example deserue to be praised followed which no man except he be void of common sense wil gainsay then may christian Princes in the right of their scepter sword I meane their publike vocation charge without seeking any farther warrāt from Rome forbid wicked and idolatrous superstition admit and assist to the best of their power the preaching of the trueth sequester heretikes from the dignities and liberties graunted to good and religious subiectes for so did Constantine whose godly vertues and happie paines all nations then imbraced all ages since confessed all Princes now should imitate Besides this he did many thinges both for spredding the faith guiding the church of Christ worthy great cōmendation By my ministery saith this good Emperor mākind is brought to the keeping obseruing of the most sacred law by the seruice which I perform to God al things euery where directly speaking of things ecclesiasticall are setled in order yea the barbarous nations which til this time knew not the truth now praise the name of God sincerely whom they reuerēce for dread of vs. Towards the church of Christ he shewed an excellēt special care calling coūcels of bishops when any dissention sprang as a common bishop ouerseer appointed by God not disdaining to be present confer with them the rather to keep thē al in christian peace For his maner was in their synods not to sit idle but to marke aduisedly what euery man said to help their either side disputing to tēper such as kindled too fast to reason mildly with ech part vndertake iointly with thē to search out the truth confirming their decrees with his seal least other tēporal iudges rulers should infringe them When occasiō serued him not to gather a coūcel he did by writing aduertise the parties dissenting of his opiniō iudgemēt interposing himself as an arbiter in their cōtrouersies somtimes Prescribing the bishops what was profitable for the church of God somtimes the people to which end he wrot many letters emitting neither rebukes nor threats whē need so required Whē the coūcel of Tyrus was gathered by his edict he cōmāded thē first to discusse the truth of such crimes as were pretēded against Athan. who was loth to come before thē saue that he feared the thretning letters of Const. writtē to this effect If any which I think not in contēpt of our mādate fail to come before you we wil send a warrāt frō our roial autority that he shal be banished to teach him what it is for bishops clerks to withstād the precept of the chief ruler defending the truth Athan. the bishops of his part appeared but finding the coūcel very partial protested against thē appealed frō thē in these words Because we see many things spitefully cōtriued against vs much wrōg offred the catholik church vnder our names we be forced to request that the debating of our maters may be kept for the princes most excellēt person we can not bear the drifts iniuries of our enimies therfore require the cause to be referred to the most religious deuout emperor before whō we shal be sufferd to stād in our own defēces plead the right of the church Yet to preuēt the worst Athan. himself fled to Constant. beseeching him to send for the bishops examine their acts
whiles he could not so much as looke into the contention betwixt the Christians and the Arrians did the Church no good For though Valentinian were for his owne person well perswaded in religion yet he suffered the Arrians to do what they would as Sozome confesseth Valentinian being himselfe of the Nicene faith made much of those that were of the same opinion with him but molested not any that were of the contrarie And that note Socrates giueth him Valentinian honoured those that were of his faith but in the meane time he let the Arrians do what they would And though himself very religiously embraced the Godhead of Christ yet would he commaund nothing to the Bishops in that behalfe neither thought hee good to change other ecclesiastical lawes into better or worse For he took them to be aboue his reache though he were otherwise a very good Emperour and fitte to rule as appeared by his doings Phi. Mislike you this in Valentinian Theo. Doe you like that he suffered Arrians to haue their foorth neither molested nor resisted them Phi. We like not that Theo. Then you mislike the timerousnes or remissenes call it what you will in the church affaires as well as we doe for what commendation could it be for him neither to meddle nor make with ecclesiasticall matters but to permit all sortes and sects to follow their appetites Phi. The stories commend him as excelling in wisedome moderation and iustice Theo. The best men haue their faults and are somtimes led with priuate fansies Valentinian was a good man and worthie the Empire and yet he made a Law that euery man that would might haue two wiues and himselfe gaue the first example in taking two Phi. What he did not Theo. Meaning to Marrie Iustina for report of her bewtie he made a law and published the same in euerie citie that it should be lawful for al men to haue two wiues at once And after the law so made he tooke Iustina to wife by whom hee had Valentinian the yonger and three daughters not diuorcing Seuera the mother of Gratiaen his elder sonne whom hee a little before had created Emperour Phi. That was a fault in deede Theo. And this was an other that hee gaue himselfe to quietnes and molested no sect of heretikes vpon this opinion that it passed his capasitie to iudge betweene the Bishops in matters of faith Phi. But Ambrose doth commend it Theo. Ambrose doth alleage it to stay the yong prince froÌ„ rashly presuming to iudge of their matters before he knew the first principles of religion because his father when he was aged Inhabilem se ponderi tanti putabat esse iudicij thought himself vnable to iudge in so weightie a cause but farther he doth not commend it and yet he might commend that in Valentinian and not hurt vs. For wee doe not encourage Princes to professe themselues iudges of fayth which Valentinian thought too great a burden but onely wee wish them to discerne betwixt trueth and error which euery priuate man must do that will be a Christian. And though Valentinian distrusted his owne iudgement in matters of faith yet that did not fray Theodosius a Prince highly commended by Ambrose him self from looking into the strife betweene the Homousians and Arrians and appointing by a solemne edict which of them should be counted Catholikes which heretikes and taking their Churches from them without their consents For hee not long after hee was called to the Empire by Valentinians eldest sonne willed euery sect to put their fayth in writing At the day prefixed the Bishoppes of euery religion being sent for came to the Court Nectarius and Agelius for the Homousians or Catholikes Demophilus â—or the Arrians Eunomius himselfe for his followers and for the Macedonians Eleusius When they were come the Prince admitted them to his presence and taking the Paper of eche mans opinion hartily besought God to helpe him in choosing the trueth Then reading their confessions written hee reiected al the rest as diuiding and seuering the sacred Trinitie and tare them in peeces and onely liked and embraced the Homousian fayth and therewithall made a Lawe that such as followed that fayth should bee counted Christian Catholikes the rest infamous heretikes All people subiect to our Empire wee will haue continue in that religion which S. Peter the Apostle deliuered to the Romanes as the fayth kept from his tyme to this day doth declare and the which it is euident Bishop Damasus and Peter Bishop of Alexandria a man of Apostolike sanctitie doe professe to witte that according to the Apostolike and Euangelike Doctrine wee beleeue one Godhead of the father sonne and holy Ghost of like Maiestie in sacred Trinitie The obseruers of this Lawe wee commaund to bee taken for Christian Catholikes the rest as mad and frantike we adiudge to beare the reproch of heretikes which must looke to feele first the vengeance of God next such penalties as the motion of our heart directed from aboue shall appoint As this religious Prince published by his Lawes which opinion should be counted trueth and which heresie so did hee by the same authoritie commaund the Churches throughout his Empire to bee presently taken from the Arrians and deliuered into the handes and possession of such as were of a right fayth So sayth Sozomene The Emperour Theodosius made a Law that the Nicene fayth shoulde bee authentike and all Churches to bee deliuered to them which professed the same Godhead of the father sonne and holy Ghost in three persons of equall honour and like power The Lawe it selfe is extant The rule of the Nicene faith receiued from our fathers and confirmed by the witnes and assertion of diuine religion let it stand good for euer And he shall bee counted a follower of the Nicene fayth and a true professor of the Catholike religion that holdeth the vndiuided substance of the incorrupt Trinitie which by a Greeke worde is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of right beleeuers They which bee not of this faith let them cease by cunning deuises to shroud theÌ„ selues vnder the name of true religion which they professe not be plainely noted by their heresies and vtterly remoued and expelled from all Churches that throughout the worlde the Churches may bee deliuered to the Bishops which hold the Nicene fayth So Gratian the sonne of Valentinian after the Empire came entirely to his hands commanded the preachers of the Arrian blasphemie as wild and cruel beasts to be driuen from their Churches and the same to be restored to good Pastors the executioÌ„ of this law he coÌ„mitted to Sapores a most famous captaine of that time The like did Theodosius the yonger decree that they which followed the wicked faith of Nestorius or cleaued to his vnlawfull doctrin if they were Bishops or Clerks should be cast out of their churches if they were Laymen they should bee accursed By this it is
Ecclesiastical causes Theo. Proofes go very low with you when you fal from Princes to inferiour iudges yet mistake your text For Hilarie beseecheth nothing of CoÌ„stantius in that place but that the iudges of euerie Prouince should forbear medling in matters of religioÌ„ with tortures violeÌ„ce The whole book the words before the next part of the same sentence ioyned to this which you bring with a coniunction copulatiue confirme that to bee the true meaning of Hilarie This is the right order of the place We beseech not only with words but also with teares that the catholike churches be no longer oppressed with greeuous iniuries sustain intolerable persecutions coÌ„tumelies that which is shameful eueÌ„ of our brethren Let your clemency prouide appoint that all iudges euery where to whom prouinces are committed which ought to take care charge of commonwealth matters onely refrain from medling with religion Neither let them presume vsurp think they may enter into clergymens causes force vexe innocent men with diuerse afflictions threats violence terrours Your singular admirable wisedome perceiueth it is not seemely it ought not to be that men should be forced coÌ„pelled against their wils harts to yeeld addict themselues through violent oppressioÌ„ to such as cease not to sow the corrupt seeds of false doctrine This was the medling with clergie mens causes that Hilarie ment and which he would haue temporall iudges restrained from and yet were his meaning neuer so generall he required nothing but that which Constantine the father of Constantius had by his publike lawes ordained al christian Princes haue since obserued to wit that Ecclesiasticall persons should be conuented before ecclesiasticall iudges For so Constantine decreed CoÌ„mitting iudgemeÌ„t iurisdiction ouer clearks to Bishops Valentinian the elder would haue priests to iudge of priests Yea Iustinian excludeth all secular iudges from hearing the causes of clergie men except it were for ciuill offences If the crime be ecclesiasticall needing ecclesiasticall reformation punishment let the Bishop determine the same the iudges of the Prouince no way intermedling for we wil not haue temporall iudges enter into such matters where as such faults must be examined ecclesiastically by the sacred and diuine rules and Canons which our lawes take no scorne to follow And though he bar ciuill iudges from the hearing of such causes yet doth not exempt clergie men Bishops nor others from the obedience of his ecclesiastical lawes as the wordes import that bee next to these Omnibus quae iam a nobis sancita sunt siue super sanctiss ecclesus siue super Deo amabilibus Episcopis siue super clericis siue super monachis propriam virtutem habentibus All thinges which we haue already decreed concerning the most holie churches and blessed Bishops and touching clerkes and monks standing in their ful force Hee quiteth clergie men from temporall barres but he bindeth both them and their iudges to the tenor of his ecclesiasticall lawes as well in their Synods as in their Consistories as appeareth at large by his 123. constitution so that this place of Hilarie might well haue been spared saue onely to make vp your tale Phi. Is this your opinion that Princes themselues may lawfully medle with Ecclesiasticall causes and persons though their inferiour iudges may not Theo. We say princes exempted clergie men from secular iudges but not from themselues And that Princes from the beginning haue medled with persons causes Ecclesiasticall wee bring you not onely fiue authorities that shall bee neither maimed nor wrested as yours bee but fiue hundred actes examples lawes and edictes that shall bee strong and effectuall proofes for this purpose Phi. You talke of cost when you saie fiue hundered Theo. Wee coulde far passe that number if the number would moue you to leaue follie but I will go an other waie to worke with you What good king can you name before or after Christ for 1000. yeares but such as medled with Ecclesiasticall matters Phi. Nay what good king can you name that did Theo. They be sooner named than answered Nabuchodonosor in making a law that euery people nation language which spake any blasphemie against the God of Sidrac Misac and Abâ—dnago should bee drawen in peeces their houses made priuies did hee not medle with matters of Religion Phi. Nabuchodonosor was a tyrant The. But being corrected by the diuine miracle he made saith Augustine a religious and commendable law for the truth that who so blasphemed the God of Sidrac Misac and Abednago should with his house perish vtterly Darius vpon the sight of an other miracle wrote to all people nations and languages that dwelt in the world with these words I make a decree that in all the dominion of my kingdome men tremble and feare before the God of Daniell The king of Niniueth hearing of that which Ionas threatned from God proclaimed a fast and charged all men to put on sack-cloath and crie mightily to God and to turne from their euill wayes and the wickednesse that was in their handes I trust you dare not condemne the king of Niniueth for an intruder vpon ecclesiasticall causes whose seruice so well pleased God that he spared the king and his subiectes from destruction hanging ouer their heads and yet fasting praier and repentance be causes meere spirituall in which the king interposed his royall authoritie by the councell of his Nobles and not of Ionas who departed the citie grieued and angrie with God for pardoning the Niniuites vpon their conuersion The factes of these three kinges I alleadge the rather because S. Augustine grounded himselfe vpon them as proofes that christian kinges may medle with matters of Religion and as patternes for them to follow Ye kinges vnderstand be wise ye that iudge the earth serue the Lord with feare and reioyce before him with trembling How do kings serue the Lord in feare but by forbidding and punishing with a religious seueritie those thinges which are done against the precepts of God As the king of Niniueth serued by compelling the whole citie to appease the Lord. As Darius serued by giuing the Idole into Daniels power to bee broken and casting his enemies to the Lions As Nabuchodonosor serued by restraining all that were in his kingdom from blaspheming God with a terrible law And againe WheÌ„ Emperours professe the truth they commaunde for truth against error As Nabuchodonosor proposed an edict for truth against error that whosoeuer blasphemed the God of Sidrach Misaach and Abednago should be destroied and his house dispersed And you Donatistes will not that christian Emperours command any such thing against you If the commaundements of kinges haue nothing to do with the publishing of religion and prohibiting of sacrileges why then do you signe your selues at king Nabuchodosors edict commaunding such thinges For when you heare it doe
With you but not with the Church of God Phi. The church we say beleeueth many things which shee receiued by tradition and not by writing Theo. Your Church I know doth but the Church of Christ I say neuer did not doth Phi. Had the Church of Christ no traditions that were not written Theo. Rites and ceremonies she had but no points of fayth that were not written Phi. This is the ground of all your errors vppon this pretence you reiect the vnwritten verities of the church Theo. If this bee an error S. Paul himselfe was the first author of it and all the fathers of Christes Church with one consent auouch the same Phi. Neuer tell vs that tale Theo. Yeas we will tell it and proue it to you Phi. You can not Theo. We can and will S. Paul is short but sure Faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God Whence wee collect ergo faith is by the word of God and not without it nor besâ—des it You heard S. Basils opinion before It is an euident slyding from the faith a point of the greatest pride that may be either to depart from that which is written or to receiue that which is not written To that you may ioyne this conclusion of his If euery thing that is not of fayth be sinne as S. Paul affirmeth and fayth come by hearing and hearing by the woorde of God ergo whatsoeuer is without or besides the diuine Scriptures because it is not of fayth it is sinne Seekest thou for faith Emperour sayth Hilarie to Constantius Heare it not out of the late scroles but out of Gods bookes Heare I beseech thee that which is written of Christ lest vnder preteÌ„ce therof of things not written bee preached And in an other place pressing his aduersarie Thou sayth he which denyest things written what remaineth but that thou beleeue things vnwritten counting that for a passing absurditie which you now would establish as the surest way to discerne the trueth Euen so doth Hierom against Heluidius As wee denie not those thinges that are written so wee reiect vtterly those thinges which are not written For Our Lord sauiour speaketh to vs in the Scriptures of his Princes that is of his Apostles and Euangelists which were not which are in the church to this end that his Apostles excepted whatsoeuer thing besides should afterward bee sayd might bee cut off and not haue authoritie Tertullian speaking in the person of all christians We neede no farther search after the Gospel When once we beleeue wee desire nothing else to beleeue for this wee first beleeue that there is nothing besides the Gospel which wee ought to beleeue And refelling the heretike Hermogenes I adore saith he the fulnes of the scriptures Let Hermogenes shew me where this that he teacheth is written If it be not writteÌ„ let him feare the curse prouided for adders diminishers Yea saith Ambrose We iustly coÌ„demn al new things which Christ did not teach because to the faithful Christ is the way So then if Christ did not teach that which we teach eueÌ„ we our selues do iudge it to be detestable The rest are of the same mind The disposition of our saluation sayth Irineus we knew by none other than by those by whom the Gospel came vnto vs the which at first they preached by mouth but afterward by Gods appointmeÌ„t they did deliuer it to vs in writing that it should be the foundatioÌ„ and pillour of our faith It is necessary for vs saith Cyril to folow the diuine Scriptures in nothing to go from their prescription The mountaines of Israel whereon God promised to feede his flocke are saith Augustine the writers of the diuine Scriptures Feeding there you feede safely whatsoeuer you learne thence count it sauorie whatsoeuer is besides theÌ„ refuse it Therefore whether it be touching Christ or his Church or any matters els which concerneth our faith life I say not if we but as followeth in Paul if an angel from heauen teach any thing besides that which you haue receiued in the Scriptures of the Law and the Gospel hold him accursed Isidorus as your owne Lawe produceth him saith A Prelate if he teach or bid any thing besides that which is euidently commaunded in the holy scriptures let him be taken for a false witnes to God a coÌ„mitter of sacrilege Neither Prelate Pope Councel nor Angel may be receiued or trusted in matters of fayth I say not against the Scriptures but not without or besides the scriptures If therefore you seeke to leade Princes vnto trueth you must guyde them thereto by the word of trueth otherwise you doe but deceiue them you doe not direct them King Dauid will teach you by what meanes himself was and all other godly Princes ought to be directed Thy word is a lanterne to my feete a light vnto my paths I haue sworne and wil performe it that I wil keepe thy righteous iudgements And God by Moses appointing his law to be the directioÌ„ of Princes coÌ„maundeth a copie thereof to be deliuered vnto the king sitting on his throne that he should reade therein all the daies of his life and learne to feare the Lord his God to keepe al the words of that lawe This charge which God giueth bindeth princes as well as others Whatsoeuer I commaund that shal you do thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take ought there from And Esay speaketh not of priuate persons only but of common-wealths also when he saith Shoulde not a people consult their God And shewing immediatly which way they might consult and aske counsell of God from the liuing sayth he to the dead to the law rather and the testimonie if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them They haue Moses and the Prophets let them heare them is the surest way to saue Prince people froÌ„ the place of torment consequently the best direction for theÌ„ both Phi. The word of God is we doubt not the best direction for Princes priuate men if it be rightly vnderstood but Al heresies patch thence the pillowes which they lay vnder the elbowes of all flesh as S. Hierom sayth and They talke of scriptures perswade by Scriptures as Tertullian noteth And therefore the Scriptures being but dumble recordes that may be diuersly construed and easily wrested there must needes bee some iudge on earth that may bee personally pronounce which is the true meaning and right sense of the Scriptures before Princes may trust that direction Otherwise men may brech what blasphemies they will and pretend Scripture when they haue done as the Arrians Sabellians Macedonians and al other heretikes did and do Theo. That heretikes couet a shew of scriptures is a case so cleare that it needeth no words For howe coulde they treate of matters of faith
like danger Phi. Succession alone is not sufficient to keepe men in the right faith Theo. If you ioyne trueth and holines with it as Ireneus doth no doubt they bee markes of faithfull and Godly Pastours but succession of it selfe doth neither priuilege the Teachers from error nor conduct their hearers vnto trueth because there haue beene thousands in the Church whose opinions you may not alow though you cannot disproue their elections Phi. Admit that and how then Theo. If Bishops singled may erre why not Bishops assembled which you call Councels What assurance hath their meeting to keepe them from erring Phi. The promise of our Lord where there be two or three gathered in my name there am I in the midst of them Theo. Doth our Sauiour speake only of Bishops and Councels or els of all faythful persons resorts gathered to prayer preaching or any other good intent Phi. The wordes be general and therefore belong as wel to councels as other conuents Theo. Indeed the words be generall and therefore belong no more to Councels than to any other Christian Conuents And did they specially pertain to Councels as they do not a Councell of two or three by the purport of the very wordes hath as much assurance of trueth as a Councel of three hundered It is not the number but the name in which they be gathered that guydeth and directeth them vnto trueth Phi. If our Lord haue promised to assist three gathered in his name howe much more will hee assist three hundered Theo. And yet three may see the trueth when three hundred may misse it Which I speake not to deface religious and Godly Councels but to stay the multitude from presuming their fansies to bee true religion when they bee nothing neere Phi. May Councels erre Theo. Why not Phi. What Councels Theo. Yea Councels Rebaptising of heretikes was defended by Cyprian and a Councel of Bishops with him and as Eusebius reporteth out of Dionysius decreed In maximis Episcoporum Synodis in very great Councels of Bishops The Arrians in twentie sixe yeres gathered and framed sundrie Councels for their purpose at Tyrus Ierusalem Philippi Sirmium Ariminum Seleucia Cōstantinople and two at Antioch In the Councel of Millan Aboue three hundered of the west Bishoppes consented that Athanasius should be thrust from his Bishoprike and only fiue sayd nay To the wicked edict of Basiliscus against the Councel of Chalcedon subscribed fiue hundred Bishops Gregorie Nazianzene was so out of loue with the Councels of his time that when he was sent for he praied Proropius to haue excused to the Emperour for sicknes and addeth I to write you the trueth am determined to forbeare all Councels of Bishops because I haue not seene any good euent of any Councel but rather an encrease than a redresse of our euils So that a number of badde Bishops may doe much hurt euen in Councels and the better part is not alwaies sure to be the greater Phi. Particular Councels haue erred but neuer generall Theo. If particular councels may erre why may not general what differēce find you between Prouinciall and general Councels but only the number of Persons that bee called and places whence they bee called Now what warrant I pray you haue three hundered Bishops more than two hundered or the Bishops of some countries more than the Bishops of other Countries that they cannot erre If trueth goe by tale particular Councels haue often matched and passed many generall for number of Bishops The second and sixt generall Councels had present at either but one hundered fiftie Bishops the third had but one hundered as Beda writeth and as it appeareth by their subscriptions not aboue one hundered fiftie whereas the Councel of Sardica had three hundred and so had the councel of Millan and the fourth sixt Councels of Carthage had aboue two hundered Bishops in either of them If it goe by countries then shew vs which Countries haue this priuiledge that their Bishops can not erre and which haue it not For as yet we see no cause why trueth should be tied to some numbers or nations and not to others and before we may grant them that progatiue we must see great cause and good proofe Phi. Wee doe not hold that generall Councels are defended from error by reason of any number or nations there gathered but it is wee say more likelie that many men assembled out of diuers nations shoulde light on trueth than a fewe out of one Theo. You come with likelyhoodes when wee seeke for certaineties Can you shew forth any graunt from God that generall Councels shall not erre Phi. If generall Councels might erre the church might erre which is not possible Theo. As though none were of or in the Church but onely Bishope or all the Bishops of Christendome without exception were euer present at any Councel or the greater part of those that are present might not strike the stroake without the rest When 300. are assembled in Councel and 149. take one part and 151. the other is this your profound learning that the odde voyces which make vp the greater part can neuer erre or doth the whole Church erre when falsehood hath for her selfe tenne or twelue Bishops more than trueth hath Phi. If a Councel once geue iudgement in matters of fayth who can reuerse it Theo. The rest present or absent may lawfully contradict the Councel if it wade besides trueth or against the faith When the fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decree that Bishops Priestes and Deacons should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone rose vp in the midst of their Councel and freely contradicted it The same Paphnutius when secrete enemies laboured in the Councel of Tyrus wrongfully to depose Athanasius caught Maximus the Bishop of Ierusalem by the hand and willed him to rise and forsake that conuenticle of euill men In the Councel of Millan when 300. had consented to the deposition of Athanasius Dionysius Eusebius Paulinus Lucifer and Rhodamus but fiue against fifteene skore openly and plainly withstood it The second Councell of Ephesus was reiected by many godly Bishoppes that were not present as iniurious and wicked and Leo himselfe writeth of the famous and generall councell of Chalcedon Tanquam refutari nequeat quod illicite voluerit multitudo as though that might not bee refused which a multitude hath vnlawfully decreed And making there no more account of their number though there were aboue sixe hundred fathers in that Councel he saith Nulla sibimet de multiplicatione congregationis Concilia blandiantur Let no councels flatter themselues with the great number of persons assembled Phi. You are the first that euer were of this opinion that generall Councels might erre Theo. Your owne fellowes haue beene of that opinion before vs. Panormitane the best of your canonists and Proctour for Pope
after they were indued with the power of the holy Ghost from aboue was assured truth void of all error the same spirit ruling their tongues that guided their pens But this priuilege to teach and write trueth without error was annexed to Peters person not conueied along to his successors no more thā their writings are canonicall because his were Phi. This was not the priuilege of S. Peters person but of his office that he should not faile in faith The. If you ment that other Apostles which were of the same office with him were to haue the same priuilege as well as he you saide right for the churches of Christ in all places where Peter neuer preached needed the same assurance of faith the same direction vnto trueth that the churches did which were planted by Peter But you will haue this priuilege remaine to some successor after Peters death and for that you shew vs no authority besides your owne which God knoweth is very simple Phi. Al the fathers applie this priuilege of not failing in faith to the Romane church Peters successours in the same Theo. You belie all the Fathers with one breath but that you haue a priuilege to say what you list in other men this were an arrogant an impudent lie What fathers I praie you applie this promise of not failing in faith to the Romane Church You say al for discharge of your credit let vs heare some Phi. S. Barnard writing to Pope Innocentius saith To what other See was it euer said I haue praied for thee Peter that thy faith do not faile Theo. Could you find no father for the space of 1100. yeres that euer applied these wordes to the church of Rome before Bernard To be plaine with you masters Bernard is too yōg to cary the name of antiquitie too single to haue the credit of al the fathers But with thē that haue no mo one must go for all Indeed all the fathers that euer applied this priuilege to the church of Rome are poore Bernard more than a 1000. yeres after Christ in the midst of corruption but in this case wee require some grauer and elder father than Bernard Phi. To the which saith S. Cyprian infidelity or false saith can not come Theo. To which what church or successors Phi. Which you wil. And where you require fathers that the church of Rome can not er Cypriās words be very plaine Post ista nauigare audent ad Petri cathedram atque ecclesiam Principalem vnde vmtas Sacerdotalis exorta est a schismaticis profanis literas ferre nec cogitare eos esse Romanos quorū fides Apostolo praedicante laudata est ad quos persidia habere non possit accessum After al this they dare saile cary letters frō schismatiks profane persons to the chaire of Peter the principal church whence priestly vnity had her beginning do not remēber the Romanes to be those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom infidelity cā not come Theo. You do wel to repeate the place at large it wil ease me of some paines What conclude you of these words Phi. That the Bishop of Rome can not er Theo. How fet you that about Phi. To Peters chaire infidelitie can not come Theo. Those be not Cypriās words Phi. To the Romanes he saith infidelity cā not come Theo. He addeth somwhat more whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. All the better For if S. Paul praised their faith it was the truer Theo. But whose faith did Paul praise the Bishops or the peoples Phi. Why aske you that Theo. Because that directeth the sense of Cyprians words Phi. Whose say you Theo. I aske you you returne it to me Well then let S. Paul speake for vs both I thanke my God through Iesus Christ for you all because your faith is renoumed throughout the whole world You al containeth as well the people that receiued the faith as the Preachers that taught it and of the twaine rather the people than the Preachers because the preaching of the faith was as true elsewhere as in Rome but either the zeale deuotion of the people in receiuing the faith was greater at Rome than elsewhere as S. Hierom noteth that S. Paul commendeth or else because their citie was imperiall the fame of their receiuing the gospel was bruted farther abroad thā of other smaler cities did incourage others to go forward with the more boldnes for the which Paul thāketh God Take which you wil the peoples faith is it that S. Paul praiseth as his own words witnesse To you all that are at Rome I thanke my God for you all because your faith is made manifest to al the world Now if Cyprian say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes whose saith was praised by the Apostles mouth then can none of the people of Rome erre because the faith of them all was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. The church of Rome can not erre nor the people neither so long as they follow the faith of that church Theo. But if you build this on Cyprians words you must say that the church of Rome can not erre so long as shee followeth the people of Rome for their faith was praised by the Apostle And therefore choose whether you will impart this priuiledge to euery Citizen and Artisant in Rome that they can not erre as well as to the Pope that hee can not erre or else seeke for an other meaning of Cyprians saying Phi. What other meaning should we seeke for be not the wordes plaine enough Theo. You neither translate them right nor applie them right For Cyprian doth not discourse in that epistle whether the Romanes them-selues may fall from the faith but whether wicked persons reiected in other places from the communion should haue any refuge or find any fauour at Rome that he largely dissuadeth bringing this amongst others for a reason that where the Apostle praised the people of Rome in his time for their zealous imbracing the faith of Christ and incouraging others to doe the like it would nowe bee a great shame if wicked disturbers of the faith should bee succoured by them which he thought good to expresse in these words Neither doe they remember the Romanes to bee those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom wickednes or vnfaithfulnesse may not haue accesse Phi. Out vpon you what a gloze haue you brought vs here Theo. None but such as the whole Epistle shal iustifie Phi. You translate non possit may not Theo. A foule ouersight I assure you as though the very children in Grammer scholes did not learne that posse doth signifie to may or can or your law it selfe did not allow vs that exposition when it saith Id dicimur posse quod de iure possumus we can
of Rome coulde not erre which your selues dare not saie and yet you woulde wring it out of Cyprians wordes But God be thanked Sainct Paul hath preuented your wicked interprise Writing to the whole church of Rome and giuing them their due praise for their deuotion and zeale and entering at last into the reiection of the Iewes for their vnbeliefe hee warneth expresly the Romanes in these wordes Boast not thy selfe against the braunches and if thou boast thy selfe thou bearest not the roote but the roote thee Thou wilt say the braunches are broken off that I might bee graft in Well through infidelitie they are broken off thou standest by faith Be not high minded but feare For if God spared not the naturall braunches take heed lest he spare not thee Behold therefore the goodnes and seuerity of God toward them which haue fallen seueritie but towards thee goodnes if thou continue in his goodnes otherwise thou also shalt be cut off Whether the Apostle spake generally to the Gentiles and inclusiuely to the Romanes or namely to the Romanes and proportionablie to the rest it is all one to vs one of the twaine hee must needes Origen saith vppon these wordes of Paul I say to you Gentiles Now he plainely turneth his speech to the Gentiles but chiefly to those of the citie of Rome that beleeued S. Paul speaking to the Romanes no man may except the Romanes and they being included his admonition to them feare and beware least was vtterly superfluous if there coulde bee no daunger in them of swaruing from the faith and the condition implied otherwise if thou continue not and the commination annexed thou also shalt be cut off were both ridiculous and odious if it were not possible for them to fal or to be cut off Fight not therefore against the holy Ghost with broken reedes caught here and there out of the Fathers works Looke rather in time to this watchword which the apostle giueth you feare and take heede otherwise thou also shalt be cut off And marke his reason If the naturall braunches may be broken off much more the wild which were planted but in their steedes Phi. If that had beene the Apostles meaning doe you thinke the Fathers would haue gainesaide it Theo. I thinke they would not and I see they doe not and that maketh mee to interprete Cyprian in such sort as hee may agree with himselfe and not confront S. Paul Phi. His wordes do surely leane on our side Theo. They fit your humor and in that respect you be eger on them Otherwise I haue cleared Cyprian both of that speech of that intent And were you not vnshamefast wranglers you would perceiue that the ordinary vse of the phrase both in diuine and humane writinges doth acquite him of that opinion which you inforce vpon him But such is your profession you must go on as you haue begun Phi. If one alone had saide it we would not vrge it so often but S. Hierom hath likewise testified the same Know you that the Romane faith commended by the Apostles mouth will receiue no such deceites nor can be possibly changed though an Angell from heauen taught otherwise being fensed by S. Pauls authority Tom. 2. Apolog. aduers. Ruff. lib. 3. cap. 4. Theo. If S. Hierom say the same that Cyprian did he must be taken and vnderstood as Cyprian was and so you ease me of that labour Phi. He saith the same in effect but his words are more forcible Theo. That is your wilfulnesse in peruerting and racking the words of S. Hierom is more sensible For S. Hierom speaketh not one word of the persons that they shall neuer fall from the faith but auoucheth only that the doctrine which was first preached at Rome and then continued was so exact and perfect that an Angell from heauen might not bee heard against it And to this ende hee saide Scito Romanam fidem Apostolica voce laudatam istiusmodi praestigias non recipere etiamsi Angelus de coelo aâ—â—ter annunciet quam semel praedicatum est Pauli authoritate munitaÌ„ noÌ„ posse mutari Know you that the Romane faith commeÌ„ded by the Apostles voice receiueth no such delusions and that being armed with Pauls authority it may not bee changed if an Angell from hauen doe preach otherwise than once was preached Phi. You run againe to your former interpretation Non posse mutari it may not be changed in steede of it can not be changed Theo. Use which you will so you grant which I fully proued before that non posse doth vsually signifie as well that which is vnlawfull as that which is vnpossible Phi. I know non possum is vsed diuersely but how doth that answere S. Hierom Theo. You take hâ—lde of a word in Hierom which in all mens speech and writinges hath diuerse and sundrie significations by your owne confession and then you maruell why we doe not receiue the vntruest and vnlikeliest of them all for your pleasures without any farther proofe Non possum doth import that which is either vnpossible vnlawfull inconuenient or any waie impugnant to the ful persuasion and determination of our mindes as the places before alleadged doe manfestly declare and in all those accidentes our common speech is may be non possum I can not You would now by a text of Hieroms where he saith Romanam fidem non posse mutari etiam si Angelus de caelo c. The Romane faith may not or can not be charged though an Angel came from heauen infer that the Romanes vntill the worldes end can not possibly choose but abide in the same faith which was first deliuered them and that doe what they will to the contrarie they must be preserued in Christes trueth This is wee say a shamefull violence offered to Hieroms wordes against all learning against his meaning and against the spirit of God speaking in S. Paul First the wordes non posse mutari receiue both constructions a like that is either a change of the faith can neuer happen in the Romanes which is your sense or else their faith can not possibly bee changed without incurring infidelitie which is ours For it ceaseth to bee faith when once it is changed Next S. Hierom speaketh not of the persons but of the thing hee doth not say the Romanes can not change their mindes but the faith which was deliuered them in no wise may be chaunged And why Because it is the truth of God which neuer changeth Againe the authoritie of Paul writing to the Galathians which Hierom citeth doth not warrant that the Romanes shal not fall but onely that the faith once preached may not be changed though an Angell from heauen should attempt it especially since the Apostle commended the doctrine which they reserued to be the true christian faith What reason then haue you besides your parcial affectioÌ„ to the See of Rome to draw these words from their natiue sense
must haue Theo. The charge which Christ gaue Peter to feede his sheepe is common to all Pastours But with the mercy which Christ shewed him in conuerting him and restoring him after his fall what haue his successors to do Christ promised Peter repentance will you therefore inferre that all Popes haue the like promises Or had they as they haue not doeth this let but they may forsweare their master and loose their faith as Peter did notwithstanding this praier and promise of Christ made vnto him Phi. But they shall also repent as Peter did Theo. If you could proue that promise to pertaine vnto them as you can not yet might their errour be publike and their conuersion secret as Peters was and since they bee subiect to Peters fall namely to denie both their faith and their master though they were promised repentance with him as they bee not yet howe can you knowe what thinges proceeded from the Popes mouth erring and which from the Popes hart repenting Which vnlesse you doe you may erre with him to your eternall confusion and not repent with him for that you haue not the like promise Phi. I will bee with you to the worldes ende saith Christ and hee forsaketh those that erre So that if the church should erre this promise of his were not kept which God forbid Theo. You shew the goodnesse of your cause when you reele thus from the Pope to the church and from the church to the Pope and yet finde nothing to fitte you Christ is with euery one of his and not onely with the Pope as you would haue the place to sound and yet I thinke you will not affirm that no christian can erre Many good men haue erred euen in matters of faith and yet not beene forsaken of Christ. The longer you reason the farther you bee from prouing that the Pope can not erre For this promise concerneth him no more than it doth any other christian and perhaps not so much or if it did yet doth it not free him from errour Phi. The promise which is generall to euery member of the church concerneth him chiefly that is head of the church Theo. Keepe this head of yours till the body need it the church of Christ hath a surer and better head thā the Pope or else it were ill with her Phi. Christ we know is the head of his church and the onely head in such soueraigne and principall manner as no earthly man is or can be yet the Pope may be the ministeriall head Theo. When you proue it then say it in the meane while abuse not the word of God to serue your follies Christ dwelleth in the hartes of all that bee his by faith with them he remaineth vntill the worldes end What is this to the Pope or how doth this fense him from errour Phi. If he be Christs he can not erre Theo. This text doth not proue him to be one of Christs but if he bee then Christ is with him as hee is with all other his members Phi. And they can not erre with whom Christ is Theo. Bee these your demonstrations that the Pope can not erre to shewe for him no better nor other priuilege than that which is common to him with women children if they be mēbers of Christ And were he a mēber of Christ which as yet for ought that I see you can hardly proue hee might be deceiued in some cases of religion as well as Lactantius Irineus Cyprian and others men of great learning and good account in the church of God Phi. Our Sauiour saieth it is not possible that the electe shoulde be seduced Theo. Not possible they should bee seduced to fall from God as the wicked are Yet as they may sinne but not vnto death euen so may they erre but not vnto destruction Their errour shall either be not finall or not mortall Phi. May they that erre bee saued Theo. If they holde fast the foundation which is Christ and erre not of wilfull obstinacie but of humane frailtie why may they not bee saued S. Cyprian said of those that were before him If any of our predecessours either ignorantly or simply did not obserue and keepe that which the Lord by his example and authoritie willed his simplicitie may be pardoned by the goodnesse of God And S. Augustin said of him when an errour of his was alleadged by the Donatistes for their defence Cyprian either was not all of this opinion or he after corrected it by the rule of truth or this blemish in his most beautifull brest he couered with the teates of charity And farther alleadgeth and alloweth this saying of Cyprians Ignosci potest simpliciter erranti he that erreth of simplicity may be pardoned Of himselfe and all others S. Augustine saith Homines sumus vnde aliquid aliter sapere quà m se res habet humana tentatio est In nullo autem aliter sapere quā se res habet Angelica perfectio est We are men and therefore to thinke otherwise than the truth is is humane infirmitie or a tentation common to man To be deceiued in nothing is Angelicall perfection And therefore writing to S. Hierom and of S. Hierom he saith Prorsus non te arbitror sic legi libros tuos velle tanquam Prophetarum aut Apostolorum de quorum scriptis quòd omni errore careant dubitare nefarium Absit hoc à pia humilitate veraci de temetipso cogitatione I am fully of opinion that you would not haue your books to be read in such sort as wee do the Prophetes and Apostles of whose writinges to doubt whether they be free from all errour is wickednesse Be this far from godly humilitie and the true perswasion of your selfe So that set the Apostles aside and their writinges no man ought to thinke of himselfe that hee can not erre neither can you haue that opinion of any man without a proude false perswasion aboue mans state and against Gods truth Phi. What shall wee then saie to the promise which our Lorde made to his When hee the spirite of trueth commeth hee shall teach you all trueth Theo. If it bee referred to the Apostles then present with him as the wordes next before doe specifie I haue yet many things to saie vnto you but you can not beare them nowe wee graunt those witnesses chosen by Christ to teach all Nations were to bee furnished with all trueth and to bee established in the same but if it bee extended to all the faithfull they also shall bee ledde into all trueth needefull and requisite to saluation I meane the substantiall groundes of faith though in some questions of Religion happilie they shall not all bee like minded Phi. And what for the Churche shall shee haue no parte in this promise Theoph. If the faythfull haue the Church which is the number and collection of the faythfull must needes haue But that the
any age euer saide the contrarie Theo. Name any catholike Diuine for a thowsand yeares after Christ that euer saide so In deede some popish prelats and writers of late yeares finding that a compendious waie to strengthen the Popes kingdom to make a speedy dispatch of such as should molest them haue not by diuinitie but by conspiracie concluded that Princes may be deposed resisted euen by their owne subiects contrary to the law of God the doctrine of the Apostles and the perpetuall patience of Christs church Phi. I wil set you downe some catholike writers about this matter albeit but fewe for breuity sake yet of such excellent credit as shal be able to instruct and satisfie any reasonable conscience in this case as also to be our brethrens defence against all those that charge them so deadly with these treasonable propositions Theo. The simplest christian that is except you take a rebellious hart for a reasonable conscience wil looke for some better authority to saue himselfe from damnatiō which God threatneth to all that resist powers than your own schoolmen companions linked in the same faction with you liuing not long before you And this seely defence of your brethren by the corrupt verdict of your confederates is rather a discredit to your whole cause than a clearing of them from traiterous deuises or as you speake from treasonable propositions Phi. Thomas Aquin that glorious Saint Clerke whose only sentence weigheth more thā al the Protestāts wits words in the world saith thus Postquā Princeps est denūciatus apostata omnes inferiores subditi absoluūtur a praestito turamēto obedientia illi debita that is to say after a Prince is once denounced to bee an Apostata all his inferiours subiects are assoiled of their oth made vnto him and of their obedience vnto him This case is plainely resolued vpon by the greatest of all the schoole Doctors and therefore can be no reasonable assertion or opinion Theo. We are now neither to sift your saints nor examine your clerks much lesse to debate whether the resolution of a popish Monk drown the wits pains of them al that God hath since called to the knowledge of his truth your passing pride I leaue to the iudgmēt of the wise The credit of Thomas is not so excellēt as you make it nor his saintship so glorious He wrot more thā 1200. yeres after Christ was both ouerwhelmed with the corruption of his time wholy wedded to the See of Rome Scripture or father he bringeth none but barely standeth on the example of Gregory the 7. who first practised this wicked presumption against Henry the 4. a 1000. yeares after Christ this is a simple securitie for subiects to resist the sword which God hath autorized the church of Christ for a 1000. yeares obeyed to heare Thomas Aquin a late Summist in y◠midst of blindnes error affirme they may pretēd no better author than Hildebrād a furious seditious monster as his owne Cardinales companions report of him You were best bring some other proofe they must else be very large consciences that will be satisfied with such censures Phi. The famous professor of our time Francis Toledo writeth farther vpō the words of S. Thomas Nota saith he quod eadem est ratio de excommunicato quia cū primū quis est denunciat us excōmunicatus omnes subdits absoluuntur ab eius obedientia Note that albeit S. Thomas name only an apostata yet the reason is al one in the Princes case that is excommunicated For as soone as one is denounced or declared an excōmunicate al his subiects be discharged of their obediēce For though the crime of a Prince be notorious yet before declaration thereof made by the church the vassals are not assoiled frō obedience as Caietanus wel holdeth which declaration being made by the church they are not only discharged of their loialtie but are bound not to obey him any more except it be for feare of their liues or losse of their temporal goods as it was in England in the time of Henry the 8. Thus doth this notable schoolemā write neither do we know any Catholike diuine of any age to say the contrarie Theo. Cal you these satisfactiōs for reasonable cōsciences in purgatiō of your selues that you do not cōspire with Popes against Princes to bring men aliue at this day that be either hired or bewitched as you are to take part with Antichrist against God his truth think you their surly conclusions to be sufficiēt instructions for all mens consciences Shall Ambrose Austen others looke on Caietane Toledo such like sworne chaplaines to the Pope our prosessed enemies to bee iudges in this cause What else is this but aske my fellow whether I be a thiefe And yet Thomas Aquinas had this moderation that Princes should not loose their Dominion for heresie or any other crime but only for Apostasie which is a generall final renouncing of Christs name to become an heathē or a Turk Toledo with lesse learning more vnshamefastnes telleth vs vpon his credit Eadem est ratio de excommunicato The same reason holdeth in any Prince whom the Pope list to excommunicate for what cause soeuer Be not these dowtie demonstrations in so weighty questions Phi. We bring them not as our chiefe groundes in this cause but onely to shewe that others haue beene of the same iudgement with vs. Theo. You meane that your fellowes of late dayes haue beene as dutifull to their Princes as you are now to ours We aske not what companie but what authoritie you haue to resist and depose the powers which God hath appointed to bee serued and honoured Let Aquinas Caietane and Toledo go You may not displace them whom God hath exalted annointed and set to be obeyed without higher and better warrant than fiue thowsand Thomases tenne Thowsande Caietanes and twentie thowsande Toledoes can giue you Phi. Thowsandes we could bring you if that would content you namely The famous generall Councell of Laterane celebrated aboue 300. yeares since wherein there were Patriarkes and Archbishops 70. Bishops 412. and other Prelates 800. in all of the most chosen learned men of all Nations 1282. with the Embassadours of the Romane Emperour of the king of Ierusalem of England of Fraunce of Spaine and of Cypres as also of other Christian States than which there can bee no surer iudgement vpon earth which assemblie representing the whole christian world would neuer agree vpon any assertion traiterous These thē are the words of their most renoumed Decree If any Lord temporall required and admonished by the church neglect to purge his State from hereticall filth let him bee excommunicated by the Metropolitane and Conprouinciall Bishops But if he contemne to come to order within one yeares space let relation be made to the supreme Bishop
captiues and pray to the Lord for it for in the peace thereof shall you haue peace Which Tertullian witnesseth the christians did in all their publike assemblies Wee call vpon the euerlasting God for the health of our Emperours alwaies beseeching God to sende euerie of them long life happie raigne trustie seruantes valiant souldiers faithfull counsellours orderly subiectes and the worlde quiet and what soeuer people or Prince can wish for Examine your selues how farre you be from the innocencie and integritie of Christes church They wished all happinesse to heathen Princes and praied for the securitie of their liues and prosperitie of their states You curse and ban christian Princes and lay plots not onely for enimies to inuade them but for subiectes to shake off the yoke and shorten the daies of their naturall and lawfull Princes Phi. The church of Christ praied for her Princes if they were Pagans but not if they were heretikes Theo. What was Constantius a Pagan or an heretike Phi. An Arian Theo. For him the church praied Phi. For his conuersion Theo. For his health raigne and welfare Phi. Heretikes perhaps like himselfe did Theo. I say Catholiks Phi. It was then at the beginning of his raigne before his impietie was notorious Theo. About you fetch and all will not serue This testimonie that the church praied for Constantius though an heretike was giuen by a Councell of catholike Bishoppes in the 21. yeare of his raigne not long before his death Phi. Where finde you that the church praied for him Theo. Reade the two letters which the West Bishops sent from Ariminum to Constantius and see whether it be not cleare In the first thus they say Wee beseech you that you cause vs not to staie from our cures but that the bishops togither with the people seruing God in peace may humblie praie for your health kingdome and safetie in which the diuine Maiestie long preserue you The conclusion of their second letter is this For this cause we beseech your clemencie the second time most religious Lord and Emperour that you command vs to depart to our churches if it so please your godlines before the sharpnes of winter come that wee may make our accustomed praiers togither with the people to the almightie God and our Lord and Sauiour Christ for your imperie as we haue alwaies purposed and now wish to continue The writings of Hilarie and Athanasius to this verie Prince confirme the same We beseech your clemencie to permit saith Hilarie that the people may haue such teachers as they like such as they thinke well of such as they choose let them solemnize the diuine mysteries and make prayers for your safetie prosperitie Athanasius by his prayers made for this prince in the open assemblie of the people cleareth himselfe from hauing intelligence with Magnentius the murtherer of his brother With what eyes could I behold that bloodie homicide or howe coulde I but cal to minde your brothers face whiles I made my praiers for your health Howe coulde I indure to thinke euill of your brother or sende letters to his enimie and not rather pray and beseech God for your welfare which verily I did A witnesse hereof is first the Lord which hath giuen you the whole Empire that was left by your Fathers There can witnesse also with me Felicissimus the captaine of Aegypt Asternis the Earle Paladius the master of your Palace and others My wordes were Let vs pray for the welfare of the most religious Emperour Constantius and presently the whole people with one voice cryed O Christ bee fauorable to Constantius and this crie they continued a long time And appealing to the Emperours owne conscience knowledge You haue good triall that all the christians make their prayers and supplications to God that you may liue in safetie and continuallie raigne in peace And God graunt you O most gracious Prince to liue many yeares Heare you deaffe of yeares and dul of hartes the church of Christ praied for hereticall Princes in the middest of their impietie and tyrannie And when it was but obiected to Athanasius that hee and others wrote letters to one that rebelled and tooke armes against the Prince hee made answere Vincat quaeso apud the veritas ne relinquas suspicionem contra vniuer sam Ecclesiam quasi talia aut cogitentur aut scribantur à christianis potissimum Episcopis I beseech you let truth take place with you and leaue not this suspition vpon the catholike church as though any such things were written or thought on by Christians and especially by Bishoppes Howe farre then were these men from your humours which professe to depose Princes and not onlie licence Subiectes to rebell but incite them to kill their Soueraignes as you did lately Parry with pardon praise and recompence both here and in heauen Phi. They might do this in the beginning of his raigne before hee discouered his heresie Theo. These bee senslesse shiftes Hilarius wrote his booke after the Councell kept at Millan by Constantius and Athanasius his after Liberius was banished For those pointes be mentioned in their writinges and fell out the one immediatly before the other after the Councel of Ariminum And therefore the rathest of these defences came seuenteene yeares after the beginning of Constantius raigne and in the hoatest of his tyrannicall and hereticall persecution as the bookes themselues declare And yet they not onely indured but also obeyed him as their liege Lord and detested all resistance in deede and thought as vnlawfull for Christians and chiefly for Bishops Phi. But when in processe of time some Princes through Gods iust iudgement the peoples sinne were fallen to such contempt of religion as it lightly happeneth by heresie and Apostasie that excommunication being onely but a spirituall penaltie or other ordinarie Ecclesiasticall discipline would not serue then as well Bishops as other godlie persons their owne Subiectes did craue aide and armes of other Princes for their chastisement as most holie and auncient Popes euen in the olde dayes when the Protestants confesse them to haue beene godlie Bishoppes did incite catholike kinges to the same that those whom the spirituall rodde coulde not fruitfullie chastise they might by externe or temporall force bring them to order and repentaunce or at least defende their innocent Catholike Subiectes from vniust vexation Theo. You begin nowe to shewe your selues in your right kinde From the church you leape to the fielde meaning belike as Iulius the seconde did that since Peters keyes wil not pleasure you Paules sworde shall better steede you The side of your booke seemeth to direct vs when and vppon what occasion spirituall Pastours beganne to vse the temporall sword but the text it selfe runneth quite awrie Wee finde there neither time prefixed nor spirituall Pastour named that euer vsed the temporall sworde Are rebellions such trifles with you that you thinke to proue them with
hee did vppon conference had with the best learned that were in his age When it was knowen in Germanie what Pope Iohn had decreed Ludouike sayth Auentine consulted the best Lawyers and skilfullest diuines that were in Italie Germanie or France especially the doctors of both lawes and diuines of Bononia and Paris They all wrote back that the actes and decrees of pope Iohn against the Emperour were repugnant to Christian simplicitie and the heauenly Scriptures The men of note and such as wrote against the Pope for this inordinate presumption were Marsilius Patauinus Iohannes Gandauus Andreas Laudensis Vlricus Haugenor Luitpoldus de Babenburg Dante 's Alligerius Occam Bergomensis Michael Caesenas Phi. What Recken you these The most of them were condemned by the Church of Rome for heretiks Theo. They were condemned by the Pope for speaking truth Marsilius booke is extant intituled The defender of peace What error can you charge him with but this that hee wrote against the insufferable pride and ambition of the Pope Dants error for the which he was condemned your friendes affirme to be this for that in his booke of the Monarchie he saide The Romane Empire had no dependance of the Pope in temporall things but only of God Occam the Minorite pursued that argument so farre that he brought the Popes power and his Prelates touching their tēporal dominiō to nothing These were their errors for y◠which the Church of Rome otherwise called the Pope and his Cardinals condemned these learned and innocent men With as good reason you might haue condemned christ and his Apostles for the same causes S. Paul auoucheth the one There is no power but of God and Christ himselfe commaunded the other Kings of nations beare temporall rule You shall not doe so Phi. They held other errors Theo. Euen such an other For this was against the state and pride of Prelates and that touched their cofers and treasures which indeede were their Goddes The Poore Franciscanes beganne to dispute that it was a signe of more perfection and a neerer resemblance to the life which Christ and his Apostles ledde on earth for clergie men to renounce the world and possesse nothing of their owne rather than to nestle themselues i◠the sweetest and richest seates of christendome and t◠heape vp mammon and wealth in such abundance that they were able not only to beard Princes in their Palaces but also shoulder them in the field The ground of their opinion they tooke from your canon Law and your holy father himselfe in erecting the Rule of Frier Frauncis could confesse as much mary when the Emperour in hatred of the Popes hauftines and greedines cast some fauour to the Franciscanes the Pope to match the Prince gaue forth an edict and made it heresie to say that Christ his Apostles possessed nothing in this world which because the Friers impugned in their schooles and sermons the Pope cōdemned them and all their aiders and abetters whereof Lodouike was one for heretikes This is that other heresie for the which Micheal Cesenas Occam and other Franciscanes and Lodouike the Emperour as a Patrone of theirs were impeached which Platina thinketh was scant aduisedly doone by the Pope and his counsellers Pope Iohn saith he set foorth a Decree wherein he declared them to be rebels to the Church of Rome heretikes which affirmed that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne This decree doth scant accord with the sacred Scripture which testifieth in many places that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne Thus your holy father to spite the prince and to reuenge such as opened their mouthes at his sumpteousnes and furiousnes made it heresie to commend humilitie and pouertie Philand That Christ and his Disciples did possesse nothing neither in priuate nor in common this was their error and not as you report it Theo. In deede it is worth the noting howe finely your Holie Father did circumuent them For where they ment that Christ and his Apostles lefte the worlde to follow their vocation and woulde after possesse nothing superfluous neither in priuate nor common but helde themselues satisfied with apparell and foode such as the goodnesse of GOD by the almes of other or by their owne industrie not slacking their function did prouide for them the Bishope of Rome hauing alreadie gotten a good part of the Empire into his hands and daily deuising newe quarels to get more and besides oppressing al Christian Realmes with intollerable taxes and paiments for the maintaining of his warres and furnishing of his other expences which were both needeles and excessiue and knowing by this vrging of christs and his Apostles pouertie which the friers began euerie where to publish how vnlike he should appeare to S. Peter whose successour hee would seem to be peruerted the wordes and sense of the poore friers as if they had taught that the diete and raiment which Christ and his Apostles vsed had not beene their own but wrongfully taken and vniustly withheld from others that were the right owners and with this shifte made it heresie and blasphemie to say that Christ had nothing of his own where the friers were neuer so madde to defend that Christ and his Apostles had no right nor proprietie to the clothes which they ware and meates which they vsed but they rather detested the monstruous wealth and riote of Monckes and Bishops which pretending to forsake the worlde and followe Christ heaped greater riches and wallowed in oftner pleasures than any secular persons which soare when the wretched friers began to touch they were condemned and burned for heretikes These were the principal grifes against Lodouike which the Pope and the Cardinals could neuer digest I meane his resisting their pride and misliking their wealth for these causes when he offered reconciliation and satisfaction that the Christian world might haue rest from those domesticall warres and miseries the Pope would receiue none but on these conditions that the Prince shoulde confesse him selfe guiltie of al those errors and heresies that were laide to his charge that he should resigne the Empire and not resume it without the Popes leaue that he should put himselfe his Children and his goods into the Popes hands to be done withal as should please the Pope Such was the mildnesse of this Romish Sainct that his hart could not be satisfied but with the vtter destruction of the Emperour and his children which when the Princes and Bishops of Germanie perceiued they signified their generall determination to Lodouicke in these wordes Most gratious Lord and Emperour the Princes electours and other the faithfull of your Empire perusing the articles of your submission which the Pope requireth and resteth on with one consent haue decreed them to be conceiued to the subuersion and ouerthrow of the Empire so that neither you nor they by reason of the
well erre in their generations before vs Phi. They kept the steppes of their fathers which if you doe you shall not erre Theo. This is the next way round about to come to the wood For how will you proue that euery generation which hath beene these 1500. yeares since Christ hath precisely kept the rules and limites of their forefathers Phi. You can not shew when or where they swarued Theo. If wee could not our ignorance in that point is no great securitie for your faith The defection of euerie age from their fathers might be either not marked or not recorded or since oblitered and therefore reason you proue your faith to haue descended from age to age without alteration before we beleeue it to be the faith of your fathers But what meaneth this that you prescribe that way to iudge of religion and the seruice of God which God himselfe prohibiteth Phi. Doth God forbid vs to follow our fathers Theo. In as plaine wordes as can be spoken with a tongue by the mouth of Ezechiel he saith Walke ye not in the preceptes of your fathers neither obserue their manners nor defile your selues with their idols I am the Lord your God walke in my statutes and keepe my iudgementes By Dauid he saith Let them not be as their fathers were a disobedient and rebellious generation a generation that set not their heart aright whose spirit was not faithful vnto God And dehorting them from their fathers steps To day saith Dauid if you wil heare Gods voice harden not your harts as in the day of coÌ„tention as in the day of temptation in the wildernes where your fathers tempted proued me though they had seen my workes Fourtie yeares did I contend with that generation and saide they are a people that erre in heart they haue not knowen my wayes By Zacharie he saith Be ye not as your fathers vnto whome the former Prophetes haue cried saying Thus saith the Lord of hostâ—â— turne you now from your euill waies and from your wicked workes but they would not heare nor harken vnto me saith the Lord. And what you count deuotion humilitie for the people to follow their fathers that God himself calleth defection conspiracie I haue protested vnto your fathers euer since I brought them out of the land of Aegypt to this day saying obey my voice Neuertheles they wold not obey nor incline their eare but euerie one walked in the stubbernesse of his wicked heart And of the children doing as their fathers did he saith A coÌ„spiracie is found among the men of Iudah and among the inhabitants of Ierusalem They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers that refused to heare my wordes With what face then can you deale so earnestly with the simple subiectes of this Land to regard neither God nor his word but only to runne the race of their Elders seeing God so straitly commaunded the children of Israel to beware the pathes and presidentes of their forefathers Phi. We must beware their wickednesse Theo. Then may they be wicked and so no paterns for vs or any others to follow Phi. The Iewes were wicked Theo. What charter can you shew that christians shall not be the like Phi. Hell gates shall not preuaile against the church of Christ. Theo. No more did they preuaile against the chosen and elect of Israel but the greatest number and gaiest men are not alwaies the church of God The foundation of God standeth sure and hath this zeale the Lord knoweth who are his Of his elect which are his true church our Sauiour hath pronounced it is not possible they should bee deceiued the rest haue no such priuilege yea rather the holy Ghost forewarneth that all besides the elect shall bee deceiued Our Sauiour our saith There shal arise false Christes and false Prophetes and shal shew great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they should deceiue the verie elect The rest then which are not elect they shall deceiue And so S. Paul speaking of the verie same deceiuers addeth whose comming is by the working of Satan with all power and in all deceiueablenesse of vnrighteousnesse among them that perish because they receiued not the law of the truth that they might be saued And therefore God shall sende them strong delusion that they should beleeue lies that al they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And S. Iohn speaking of the beast that made warre with the Saintes had power ouer euerie kindred and tongue and nation saith Therefore all that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life So that the visible church consisting of good bad elect and reprobate hath no such promise but she may erre only the chosen of Christ which are the true members of his body properly called his church they shall not erre vnto perdition and those if you could point them out with your finger the people might safely follow otherwise if you set men to follow the rest of their fathers be they neuer so many neuer so graue neuer so godly to your seeming you bid them take the wide gate and broade way that leadeth to destruction because there were many that entered it before them Phi. Will you make vs beleeue that our fathers are perished Theo. Who are perished is not for vs to pronounce They were his seruants that iudgeth iustly neither haue we to medle with their doome but to looke to our owne yet this we can assure you that many be called and few chosen And therefore if you aduise the people to imitate the multitude of their fathers you teach them the right way to hell And though wee may not iudge of your fathers yet knowe you for a certainty that God is not afraide to iudge them and condemne them if they refused his truth as you do Neither is it any such daungerous doctrine to say that our forefathers haue sinned and displeased God as you woulde make it the godly haue alwaies confessed it of their fathers and not spared to tell the wicked so much to their fates Dauid slandered not his forefathers when he said We haue sinned with our fathers we haue done wickedly Our fathers vnderstood not thy wonders in Aegypt neither remembred they the multitude of thy mercies but rebelled at the Sea euen at the red Sea Daniell knewe what he pronounced when hee confessed O Lord to vs belongeth open shame to our kinges to our Princes and to our fathers because wee haue sinned against thee Ezechiah was not ashamed to say Our fathers haue trespassed and done euill in the eyes of the Lord our God and haue forsaken him and turned their backes And loe our fathers are fallen by the sword Iohn told the Pharisees to their faces their fathers were vipers and
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
speed For the traditions which they mention bee either points of faith or not If they be then by the general confession of all antiquity they must be warraÌ„ted by the scriptures or els we must reiect theÌ„ If they be no parts nor consequents of the christian faith then do not those fathers weaken our assertion wheÌ„ we say that all points of faith must be proued by the scriptures this we gaine besides that the traditioÌ„s which you make the grouÌ„dwork of al your religion as they be not written so be they not necessary to saluation Phi. The faith it selfe is proued by tradition Theo. That doctrine which the Apostles deliuered by word of mouth the very same they put afterward in writing that it might be the touchstone triall of truth in times to come but this is nothing to such vnwritten verities as be different from the scriptures Teach what you wil by tradition so it accord with the written word of God we bée not against it but you may not build any point of faith vpon tradition except the scriptures confirme the same Phi. This is an error of yours which you seeke to bolster against the church The. You giue vs words we giue you proofs this which you cal an error of ours was taught receiued in the primatiue church for a catholik truth except you caÌ„ shew some points of faith which the father 's beleeued vpoÌ„ traditioÌ„ wtout scriptures the world wil suspect that you make traditioÌ„s but a cloake for your heresies Phi. S Augustin often writeth that many of the articles of our religion points of highest importance are not so much to be proued by scriptures as by traditioÌ„ The. You bely so many that it is no newes for you to bely S. Austen Where saith he so Phi. Namely auouching that in no wise we could beleeue that children in their infancy should be baptised if it were not an Apostolik tradition De gen ad lit lib. 10 cap. 23. Theo. But where doth S. Austen write this often that of many articles of religion points of highest importance Of so many high points you should haue shewed two at least Phi. Tradition caused him to beleeue that the baptized of heretiks should not be rebaptized notwithstanding S. Cryprians autority the manifold scriptures aleaged by him though they seemed neuer so pregnaÌ„t de bap lib. 2. cap. 7. Theo. Your heades bee so ful of traditions that you can not report a father without corruptions It is not true that Tradition nothing else caused him to beleeue this against CypriaÌ„s authority he was armed with scriptures reasons inuincible as himselfe both sheweth and saieth Prouoking a Donatist to conferre with him about this errour Ratione agamus diâ—inarum scripturarum authoritatibus agamus Let vs discusse this matter saith he by argumeÌ„t by the authorities of the diuine scriptures And repeating a reason that was expressed in the Princes edict forbidding rebaptizatioÌ„ he maketh the rebaptizers this offer Faciant mille Concilia Episcopi vestri huic vni sententiae respondeant ad quod volueritis consentimus vobis Let your Bishops assemble a thowsand councels answere but this one sentence we yeeld to you at your pleasures And therefore he doubted not to say of Cyprian though otherwise he did honour him very much Aliter sapiâ—t quam veritas diligentius considerata patefecit He was of an other opinion than that which the truth vpon more diligent consideration reueiled And when CypriaÌ„s epistle in this case was obiected he replied Cyprians epistles I esteeme not as canonicall but I coÌ„sider them by the canonical scriptures that which in them agreeth with the authority of the diuine scriptures I receiue with his praise that which doth not agree by his leaue I refuse The general custom of the câ—uâ—ch reuoked him from following Cypriâ—â—s authority though it were great and brought him to the deeper debating of the question but he which sayth that S. Augustine in all his conferences and writinges aleadgeth nothing against rebaptization but tradition may be rebaptized if his christianity be no more than his cunning Phi. For baptizing of infants his words be plaine It were not at al to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition Theo. I see the words wel enough but the meaning of the speaker in this place and the likenesse of the same speach in other places make me to thinke that a letter too much is crept into these wordes as through the iniuries of times and varietie of scribes many thowsand deprauations and diuerse lections were and are yet in the workes of S. Augustine and other fathers not onely by the iudgement of the learned but by the very sight of their margins Phi. A letter to much which is it Theo. You read Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esset traditio I thinke it shoulde bee Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio Esset for esse is a scope in writing soone committed but a matter of some moment in altering the sense Phi. And therefore you may not correct it without apparent proofe Theo. I may suspect it though I take not vpoÌ„ me to correct it but leaue it to the indifferent reader Phi. You must be led thereunto with very good reason Theo. First the very course of the sentence leadeth mee so to thinke Sainct Augustine in these three distunctiues Nequaquam spernenda neque vllo modo superflua deputanda nec omnino credenda The custome of our mother the Church in baptizing her infantes is neither to be despised nor anie waie to bee counted superfluous nor at all to bee beleeued did not meane to contradict him-selâ—e but by steppes to increase the credit of this custome and the third part Nec omnino credenda Not at all to be beleeued doeth rather euert all that went before than giue you any farther commendation to that Tradition For Not at all to be beleeued is as much as to be despised and counted superfluous which is repugnant to the wordes precedent But reading Esse â—or Esset the partes are consequent ech after other in better order and the last is the same that Sainct Augustine in other places doth often vtter in the very like manner and kinde of speech that here is vsed The custome of our mother the church in baptizing her infants is neither to bee despised nor by any meanes to bee accompted superfluous nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio nor at all to bee thought to be any other than an Apostolike tradition So speaking elsewhere of the very same matter he sayth Non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur It is most rightly beleeued to bee none other than a tradition of the Apostles Where wee finde not onely the same purpose but the verie same phrase and force of speech that were vsed before
neither mans speach nor witte can comprehende howe it was done And againe Virgo cum parturit virgo post partum Vacuatur vterus infans excipitur nec tamen virginitas violatur Shee was a virgin when shee was deliuered and a virgin after She was deliuered her child borne and shee for all that a virgin The like we find in sundry other of those sermons Phi. But Heluidius was noted as an heretike by S. Augustine and others for saying that our Lady was knowen of Ioseph her husband after the birth of our Sauiour Theo. The Fathers might reiect him as an heretike for his impudent abusing the Scriptures to build a falshoode vpon them which was not contained in them and if they detested it as a rash and wicked slaunder for him against manifest trueth to blemish that chosen vessell which the holy Ghost had ouershadowed and the son of God sanctified with his presence we neither blame them nor mislike their doings But yet they neuer charged the Scriptures with imperfection as you doe S. Hierome purposely writing against Heluidius vseth the fulnes of the Scriptures as his best argument to defend her virginitie Vt haec quae scripta sunt non negamus ita ea quae non sunt scripta renuimus Natum esse Deum de Virgine credimus quia legimus Mariam Nupsisse post partum non credimus quia non legimus As we deny not those things which are written so we reiect those things which are not written That God was borne of a Virgine wee beleeue because we read That the same virgine Mary became a wife after the birth of her son we beleeue it not because we read it not S. Augustine alleageth Scripture for it with what successe I will not iudge If neither of these quiet your contentious spirits our answer shal be that when you make iust proofe that this is a poinct not of trueth which we graunt but of faith which you vrge then will wee not faile to shewe it consequent to that which is written You were wont to obiect other pointes of Religion as proued by tradition and not by Scripture amongest which you set the Godhead of the holy Ghost and his proceeding from the Father and the Sonne But I trust by this time you be either stilled in them or ashamed of them Phi. Not so neither For As we acknowledge this article to be most true so we are sure you haue no expresse Scripture for it Theo. Are you well aduised when to spite vs you teach the people that the highest mysteries of their faith cannot be warranted by the Scriptures Perceaue you not what a wrong it is to the spirite of GOD to holde his Diuinitie by Tradition and not by the word of God What ignorance is this if it be no worse to say that Athanasius Dydimus Basil Nazianzen Ambrose Cyril and Augustine in their special Treaties of this very point haue alleaged no Scriptures to confirme the Godhead of the Holy Ghost Phi. We speake not of them but of you Theo. As if in a common case of faith the Scriptures were not common to vs with them If they had Scriptures for it we haue if we haue none than had they none Phi. Expresse Scripture they had none Theo. Doe you plaie with idle wordes in so weightie matters of Christian faith Euident and plaine scriptures they had where the holy Ghost was called God what is expresse Scripture if that be not Phi. They had no such scripture Theo. Had they not Turne your booke a little better you shall find they had Glorificate Deum portate in corpore vestro Quem Deum nisi spiritum sanctum cuius corpora nostra dixerat esse Templum Glorifie God saith the Apostle and beare him in your bodie What God but the Holy ghost whose Temple before he called our bodies And againe When Peter had said durst thou make a lie to the holy Ghost Ananias thinking he had lied vnto men Peter sheweth the Holy Ghost to be God by and by adding thou hast not lied vnto men but vnto God These two places the same father vrgeth against the Arrians as very plain scriptures Glorificate ergo Deum in corpore vestro Vbi dilucidè ostendit Deum esse spiritum sanctum glorificandum scilicet in corpore nostro Et quod Ananiae dixit Petrus Apostolus Ausus es mentiri spiritui sancto Atque ostendens Deum esse spiritum sanctum non es inquit hominibus mentitus sed Deo Glorifie therefore God in your body saieth Paul Where very manifestly hee sheweth the holy Ghost to bee God which must be glorified in our body as in his Temple And that which Peter the Apostle saide to Ananias Durst thou lie vnto the holy Ghost And declaring the holy Ghost to be God thou hast not lied vnto men saith he but vnto God Ambrose taketh them for euident scriptures Quod praemiserit Spiritum addiderit non es mentitus hominibus sed Deo necesse est in spiritu sancto vt vnitatem diuinitatis esse intelligas Nec solum in hoc loco euidenter sancti spiritus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est diuinitatem Scriptura testatur sed etiam ipse Dominus dixit in Euangelio quod Deus spiritus est In that Peter first named the Spirite and presently saide thou hast lied not vnto men but vnto God wee can not choose but vnderstand the holy Ghost to be God Neither in this place only doth the Scripture euidently witnesse the Godhead of the holy Ghost but also in the Gospel the Lord himselfe saith that the spirite is God Nazianzen saith these and such like be expresse scriptures and that if you doubt thereof you be very grosse headed They which knewe the only blasphemie which is vttered against the Spirite to be irremissible and gaue Ananias and Saphira that horrible reproche for lying vnto the holy Ghost what doe they seeme to thee openly to professe the Spirite to be God or no How dull headed art thou and without al sense of the spirite if thou doubt thereof or needest farther teaching By so many names so forcible and expresly recorded in the Scriptures the holy Ghost is called Amongst those expresse names numbring this for one of the chiefest and clearest that the holy Ghost was called God as the words before directly witnesse Phi. His proceeding from the Father and the sonne cannot bee proued by scripture though his Godhead may Theo. How then came it first to be beleeued by Tradition or by scripture Phi. Certeinly not by scripture Theo. Your tongues be so vsed to vntruthes that your certainties be litle worth the Church of Christ receiued her faith concerning the proceeding of the Holy Ghost from the father and the sonne not by Tradition but by scripture Saint Augustine saith Firmely beleeue and no whit doubt the same holy Ghost which is one Spirit of the
Your later allegation is grouÌ„ded on the former conuinceth your author to be but a yong father in respect of S. Basil. For where S. Basil died before Meletius your bastard Basil rehearseth Meletius as a Bishop of ancient memorie dead long before his time In super MeletiuÌ„ illuÌ„ admiranduÌ„ in eadeÌ„ fuisse sententia narrant qui cuÌ„ illo vixerunt Sed quid opus est vetera coÌ„memorare Immo nuÌ„c qui sunt Orientales Moreouer Meletius that admirable Bishop was of the same opinion as they that liued with him report But what neede I repeate auncient times The East Bishops which are at this day c. Now the true S. Basill not onely liued at the same time with Meletius but was made Deacon by him and wrate many letters to him and departed this life before him as the church storie witnesseth affirming that Helladius S. Basils successour and Meletius were both present at the second general councell at Constantinople vnder Theodosius and that must needes be when S. Basill was dead Phi. You did wel to discredit the place it were otherwise able to ouerthrowe all your new doctrine Theo. Then you do not well to build the antiquitie of your religion on this and such other apparent forgeries but were the places not forged they could do you no such seruice as you spake of in the question which we now handle yea rather they confirme that which we affirme that Things necessary to saluation are comprised in the Gospell Phi. Many traditions were receiued from the Apostles without writing which are not in the Gospel Theo. You must also proue those traditions to be necessary to saluation before you can conclude out of this place any thing against our assertioÌ„ Phi. As though the Apostles deliuered thinges which were not necessary to saluation Theo. The christian faith they deliuered in writing the rest they left vnwritten because those things which were no parts of faith were deliuered to the church of Christ for decency not for necessity Phi. For decency what a cauill that is Theo. The Traditions which your counterfet Basill here rehearseth as descending from the Apostles are no such deepe mysteries of religion as he pretendeth That the people should euery sunday and likewise betweene Easter and Whitsuntide pray standing is that any point of faith or help to saue their soules The words of inuocatioÌ„ at the Lords supper the praiers before after which the Greeke church vsed haue you not long since left them or to say the trueth did you euer accept them for catholike Singing with the crosse turning to the East thrise dipping him that is baptized and annointing him after with oyle bee these essentiall parts of Baptisme or rather externall Rites declaring the power and vertue of that Sacrament Your author himselfe will tell you they be not within the compasse of that faith which is common to all ChristiaÌ„s and must be rightly beleeued of all that will be saued For shewing the cause why they might not be written What things saith he such as were not baptized might not behold how could it be fit they should be publikely caried about in writing And againe The Apostles and fathers which prescribed certaine rites in the first beginning of the church reserued to these mysteries their dignitie by silence and secrecie For it is no mysterie which is open to the eares of the people and vulgar sort Now things necessary to saluatioÌ„ must openly be preached to the people and be fully conceiued of them and stedfastly proâ—essed by theÌ„ before they can be saued These things therefore be not of that sort but are rather excluded from necessitie because they were deliuered vnder secrecie Phi. But S. Basil or whosoeuer he be that wrote that booke saith vtraque parem vim habent ad pietatem Things vnwritten haue equal force to godlines with things written Theo. He saith not that all things vnwritten but vtraque both sortes haue like force to godlines not that dumbe ceremonies or outward gestures haue equall force with the word of God to lighten the minde conuert the soule and clense the heart it were arrogant blasphemie so to say but amongst things vnwritten he numbreth the praiers of the church proportioned by the word and hauing in them the very contents of the worde and also the Creede and profession of the faith it selfe whereby wee beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost in truth godlinesse equiualent with the scriptures and in substaunce the very same that is witnessed by the scriptures Both these your Author in that place counteth for things vnwritten and these wee graunt haue equall force to godlinesse with those things that are written Phi. In effect they be all one with those things that are writteâ— Theo. That maketh his speâ—ch the truer which otherwise were absurd and vngodly Phi. Is it not a wâ—lie shift that sometimes you will admit no traditions and at other times when you bee hardly pressed fayth scriptures and all shall bee traditions with you Theo. Is it not a wilier that hauing framed to your selues a religion without the scriptures you woulde nowe fortifie the same by tradition against the scriptures But you may not so preuaile Wee haue the warrant of Saint Paul and the catholike consent of Christes Church that our faith shoulde depende on the word of God and since God speaketh not now but in his scriptures it is euident that our fayth in all pointes must bee directed and ruled by the scriptures Stand not brabling with vs about the worde Tradition which is very doubtfull and diuersely taken amongest the fathers Bring some faire and true demonstration for that which you holde as reason is you should to counterpâ—iâ—e so many proofes in a matter of such importance or else admit our assertion to be true Philand That wee can doe and yet not hurte our cause Theophil Wee knowe you can doe much You can bouldly call your selues catholikes though you bee vnshamefast heretikes and tell the people you teach nothing but antiquitie when the chiefest pointes of your religion bee meere nouelties and barbarous absurdityes Philand You can exemplifie a lye the best that euer I hearde Theophil Keepe that praise as proper to your selfe I will not disturbe your profession Touching the matter in question whether I speake ought that is vntrue let the reader iudge You will haue your religion and doctrine to bee Catholike that is confirmed by the Scriptures and professed in all places of all persons at all tymes euen from the first beginning wheresoeuer the Church of Christ hath beene receiued And when wee come to see the specialities wee finde you to swarue not onely from the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers but euen from those later ages and Churches which you woulde seeme to followe and to haue gotten you a religion of your owne without Councell Canon antiquitie or
reuerent estimation regard of them that they be not despised or abused although they be but signes So that water in baptism and the creatures of breade and wine in the Lordes supper which are the two examples here mentioned are to be reuerenced as things that be sacred by the word and ordinaÌ„ce of God but not to be adored and honored for the things themselues whose signes they are that were a miserable seruitude or rather the right death of the soule as Austen noteth And that the first teachers of truth remoued al Images as vnprofitable signes to serue God with the words before do plainly shew For speaking of the difference between the Iewes and the Gentils when they should be conuerted vnto Christ he saith ChristiaÌ„ liberty finding the Iewes vnder profitable signes to wit the rites Ceremonies of the Lawe did interprete the meaning of them and so by directing the people to the things themselues deliuered them from the seruitude of the signes but finding the Gentiles vnder vnprofitable signes for that they worshipped Images either as Gods or as the signes and resemblaunces of Gods ipsa signa fruâ—trauit remouitque omnia shee wholy remoued and frustrated the signes themselues that is shee would not suffer them to serue the true God with any such signes as bodily shapes and Images were Your honouring of Images is reproued as you see and not releeued by S. Augustines Rule And since the Lawe of God expressely and â—treitly chargeth you not so much as to bowe your bodies or knees to the likenesse of any thing in heauen or earth which is made with handes consult your owne consciences whether you may with your respects frustrate or with your routes ouerbeare the distinct and direct voice of God himselfe in his own Church And if you be not giuen ouer into a reprobate sense you wil say no. Now that which is against the Law of God can neither be Christian nor Catholike Your Doctrine therefore of bowing and kneeling to Images is repugnant both to the precepts of God and to the generall auncient resolution of Christs church your adoring them with diuine honour is a sacrilegious and flagitious as well noueltie as impietie Phi. You must not looke that we should defend the sayings doings of all that haue takeÌ„ part with the church of Rome If Thomas waded too far in worshipping Images if Gerson mistooke S. Augustine if the later Councell of Nice denied or strained some of the ancient Fathers you must not chalenge vs for their ouerâ—ightes The. We chalenge you for vaunting your selues to be Catholikes when in deede you doe nothing but smooth and sleike the corruptions and inuentions of later ages against the right ancient faith of Christs church The discent of Images with their adoration how late it began how often it varied how far at length it swarued froÌ„ the Primatiue original profession of the christiaÌ„ catholik faith we haue spent somtime to examine Let vs now approch to your praiers in a straÌ„ge toung which haue a great deal lesse shew of catholicism thaÌ„ images had yet are as egerly defended by you as images were Phi. In the Latine toung we haue praiers in a strange toung we haue none you rather that haue turned scriptures church seruice secretes for your pleasures into the English tongue make your praiers in a strange and vnwonted speach to catholik earesâ— The. To English meÌ„ the English toung is not strange Phi. I know they vnderstand it but I call it strange because they were not woont to haue the publike praiers of the Church in their mother toung Theo. In cases of religion we must respect not what men haue but what they should haue beene vsed to Cyprian saith well Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas erroris est Custome without trueth is but the long continuance of error so Tertullian Quodcunque aduersus veritatem sapit hoc erit haeresis etiam vetus consuetudo Whatsoeuer is against the trueth it must bee counted heresie though it be an old Custom The Councell of Carthage where Cyprian was resolued thuâ— The Lord saith in the Gospel I am trueth he said not I am custom Trueth therefore appearing let custom yeeld to truth Phi. That councel erred in neglecting the old custom which the church obserued Theo. But yet their generall assertion which I alleage was so strong that S. Augustine saith to those very wordes Plane respondeo quis dubitet veritatis manifestae debere consuetudinem cedere I plainly answere who doubteth but that custom must yeeld to the trueth appearing Phi. Neither doe we doubt of that but how proue you this to be a manifest trueth that the people of this Land must haue their diuine seruice in the English tongue Theo. It is the manifest precept of him that said I am trueth and witnessed in the Scripture which is the worde of trueth Philan. In what place there Theo. Make not your selfe so great a stranger in the Scriptures as if you knew not the place Phi. You meane the 14. Chapter of the first epistle which S Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth Theo. I doe what say you to it Phi. Mary this we say The reader may take a tast in this one point of your deceitfull dealing abusing the simplicitie of the popular by peruerse application of Gods holy word vpon some smale similitude equiuocatioÌ„ of certaine termes against the approued godly vse and trueth of the vniuersall Church for the seruice in the Latine or Greeke tongue which you ignorantly or rather wilfully pretend to be against this discourse of S. Paul touching strange tongues Theo. And hee that marketh your shifting and facing in this one point shall need no farther tast of your dealing Phi. If you like not that which we say refel it Theo. Can your selues tell what you say Phi. You shall well find that when we come to the matter Theo. First then heare what the Apostle saith and after you shal haue leaue to say what you will Instructing the Church of Corinth thus he saith And now brethren if I come to you speaking with strange tongues what shall I profite you If a truÌ„pet giue an vncertaine sound who wil prepare himself to the battel So likewise you by the tongue except you vtter words of easie vnderstanding how shal it be knoweÌ„ what is spoken For you shal speake in the aire There are for example so many kindes of tongues in the worlde and none of them is without sound Except I know the power and signification of the speach I shall be to him that speaketh barbarous and he that speaketh shall be barbarous to me Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue pray thâ—t he may interpret For if I pray in a tongue not vnderstood my spirite praieth but mine vnderstanding is without fruit What is it then I wil pray with the
peoples heartes and voyces Philand Those be your shyftes Theoph. Goe to you shifters is it not enough for you to beguile the simple with emptie soundes shewes and names but you will resist a manifest trueth when you are sure to haue it prooued to your faces Cyprian in his 63. epistle meddleth not with Malachies wordes but if you woulde in deede learne what hee thought or wrate of that prophesie and what hee counted to bee the Sacrifice that Malachie foretolde turne to his instructions giuen to Quirinus against the Iewest he first booke and 16. chapter where he proueth that the old sacrifice should bee abolished and a newe succeede and there you shal find him expound it to bee Sacrificium laudis iustitiae the Sacrifice of praise and righteousnes and that by no worse mans authoritie than Dauids Iustinus I grant alleadgeth the wordes and saith God in that speech doth witnes that all the sacrifices which Christ Iesus appointed to be done in his name at the Eucharist of bread and wine are acceptable to him But what Sacrifices they were which Christ deliuered and prescribed in the Eucharist for his to do the wordes of Iustinus that presently follow do perfectly open Preces quidem gratiarū actiones bonorum perfectas solas esse Deo gratas hostias ego quoque concedo Haec enim sola facienda acceperunt Christiani in aridi humidique sui cibi commemoratione in quo mortis quam per se perpessus◠est Deus Dei filius memoria re colitur That the prayers and thankes of the good are the only perfect sacrifices and pleasant to God I confesse For these onely sacrifices haue the christians receiued to be done in the celebration of that their Eucharistical food liquor in which the memory of the death of the son of God who himselfe was God is renewed You should haue spared the very quoting of this place by mine aduise for if all the Preachers in England would haue laide their heades together in wordes to crosse your actuall corporall sacryficing the flesh of Christ they could not haue done it in quicker and smarter speech Ireneus maketh euen as much for you as Iustinus did for he not onely subuerteth your reall sacrificing of Christ when hee teacheth that the church offereth the creatures of bread and wine in token of her thankefulnesse vnto God but the very wordes of Malachie he expoundeth by S. Iohns authority for the praiers of the Sainctes Benè ait in omni loco incensum offertur nomini meo sacrificium purum Incensa autem Iohan. in Apocalypsi orationes ait esse Sanctorum Et ideo nos quoque offerre vult munus ad altare frequenter sine intermissione Est ergo altare in coelis Illuc enim preces nostrae oblationes nostrae diriguntur Well saith God by Malachie In euery place incense is offered to my name and a pure sacrifice Now incense Iohn in his Apocalypse calleth the prayers of the Sainctes And therefore God will haue vs offer a gift at his altar cōtinually without intermission The altar is in heauen Thither are our praiers and oblations directed Phi. Yet S. Irenens applyeth the wordes of Malachie to the Eucharist Theo. He doth but that sacrifice he saith is the offering vnto God the first fruits of his creatures for a thankesgiuing and with that restriction hee limiteth the word offerimus which he often vseth Offerre igitur oportet Deo primitias eius creaturae Offerimus einon quasi indigenti sed gratias agentes donationi eius sanctificantes creaturam Wee must offer to God but the first fruites of his creatures Wee offer to him not that he wanteth but giuing him thankes for his bountifulnesse and sanctifieng the creature Here is a sacrifice of thanksgiuing for his mercies not Christ but the creatures of bread and wine offered vnto God with prayer and other christian duties which hee nameth as cleane thoughtes faith without hypocrisie firme hope feruent dilection these are the sacrifices of the new Testament of the Lords table not proper to the priest but common to the people nor finished with the hāds but perfourmed with the spirite of man which is the true seruice of the second couenant Phi. You turne and winde the Scriptures as you please but sure the Prophet Malachie directly toucheth our Sacrifice Theo. You dreame so earnestly of it that all the Fathers in Christes church can not pull you from it What Cyprian Iustine and Ireneus write of this prophesie you do or may vnderstand by that which is saide if the number bee too smal you may haue moe to assure you that the Prophet neuer thought of your reall and corporall sacrificing of Christes fleshe to God the Father by the Priestes fingers Tertullian alleadging the very wordes Et in omni loco offerentur munda Sacrificia nomini meo In euery place shall there bee brought cleane Sacrifices vnto my name addeth Indubitatè quod in omni terra exire habebat praedicatio Apostolorum Vndoubtedly the Prophet Malachie meaneth that the preaching of the Apostles was to bee spredde ouer all the earth Against Marcion hee sayeth Et in omni loco Sacrificium nomine meo offeretur sacrificium mundum scilicet simplex oratio de conscientia pura In euerie place shall there bee offered in my name a sacrifice and that a cleane sacrifice to witte sincere praier from a pure conscience So Eusebius Where Malachie doeth say that incense and sacrifice are offered to God in euerie place what else meaneth hee but that it is done in euery Countrie and in all Nations which in deede were to offer to the most high God the incense of prayer and sacrifice which is called cleane no longer by blood but by godly workes Nowe what those workes were Cyrill will teach you Wee vse sacrifices but of the spirite and minde For wee haue a precept that leauing the grosse seruice of the Iewes wee shoulde yeelde a subtile fine and spirituall sacrifice And therefore wee offer vnto God for a sweete smell all sortes of vertues faith hope charitie iustice continence obedience mildnesse perpetuall prayses and other such vertues So Hierom. Incense is offered to the name of the Lord in euerie place and a cleane sacrifice not in the oblations of the olde Testament but in the holynesse of Euangelicall puritie of which incense wee reade in other places as when Dauid sayeth Let my praier bee directed as incense in thy sight and the lifting vppe of mine handes as an Euening sacrifice So Augustine Heare yee Donatistes the Lorde saying thus by his Prophet In euerie place shall incense bee yeelded to my name and a pure sacrifice With this sacrifice of your brethren which God most respecteth you shew your selues by your cauilling to bee grieued and if at any time you heare the name of the Lord to bee praysed from East to West which
heades whiles you were working an other feate Phi. What feat could we haue in hand but the testifieng of trueth to our Countrie men that wee haue done to the vtter confutation of your hereticall doctrine The. You must needs coÌ„fute vs for besides abusing of scriptures which you wind like a withe about your fingers where the Fathers will not serue your turnes you will force them euen by skores tâ— depose what you list and though they vse but generall and indifferent wordes yet you will by and by quote them to be of your opinion Phi. Where haue we so done Theo. Omit the places that are past in this beadrole of Fathers which here are brought shewe but one that euer mentioned your kinde of sacrifice wee will trouble you no farther you shall set vp your Masse againe Phi. What wee shall not Theo. I will helpe you the best I can Phi. Any of the places which wee bring is sufficient to iustifie our sacrifice Theo. As well euery as any They cal the Lordes Supper ministred according to his institution an OBLATION and SACRIFICE or as your pen runneth an HOST and a VICTIME what then Phi. Then wee say trueth when we teach it to be a sacrifice not only a sacrameâ—t The. Then you lie the more when you say that you really corporally sacrifice the Sonne of God vnder the formes of bread and wine and that the Priestes act though the people neither vnderstand what he saith neither know what he doth but gaze on him whiles he alone murmureth to himself in a touÌ„g vnknown maketh that priuat to one which should be common to al by Christs institution is notwithstanding very profitable before God for such as hire his paines or please his humour to bee had in minde when hee rubbeth his memory Phi. You peruert our doctrine Theo. It may bee my termes doe not please you but I tell you the thinges which wee reiect in your sacrifice Leaue your presumptuous and meritorious application of Christes death as pleaseth the Priest leaue your reall and corporall inclosing of Christ vnder accidentes and shewes of bread and wine confesse the Lords Supper to be a publike actioÌ„ pertinent to the whole church as it was ordained and let your prayers instruct and direct the hearts of the simple and haue their open euident assent as for the name of sacrifice and oblation it shall not offend vs. Phi. The chiefe occasion of your hatred against the dayly sacrifice is this that you do not acknowlege the real presence of Christ in this sacrament that maketh you neither to offer him nor to adore him as we doe yea skant to abide the fathers wordes wherein they witnesse that he is offered and must bee adored vnder the formes of bread and wine Theo. We hate your follies we hate not their speeches and yet there are reasons why wee doe not thinke our selues bounde to take vppe the frequent vse of their termes in that point as wee see you doe For first they bee such wordes as Christ and his Apostles did forbeare and therefore our faith may stand without them Next they be darke and obscure speeches wholy depending on the nature and signification of Sacramentes which the simple doe hardly conceiue Thirdly wee finde by experience before our eyes howe their phrases haue entangled your senses whiles you greedily persued the wordes and omitted the rules that shoulde haue mollified and directed the letter These causes make vs the warier and the willinger to keepe to the wordes of the holy Ghost though the fathers applications if you therewithall take their expositions doe but in other termes teach that which we receiue and confesse to bee true and sincere Philand Woulde you make vs beleeue that the sacrifice of the Altar hath no warrant in the Scripture Theo. Shewe mee the place where it is so called and then will I graunt that in the worde I was deceiued Phil. First you hearde the worde OBLATION in Malachie Theo. I did but I heare him not applie it to the Sacrament Philand Melchisedec by his oblation of bread and wine did properly and most singularly prefigurate this sacrifice Theo. But the Scripture doeth not say that either Melchisedec did sacrifice bread and wine or that Christ at his last supper did imitate Melchisedec Phi. Hee was a Priest according to the order of Melchisedec Theo. Saint Paul sheweth in what thinges Melchisedec resembled Christ as in that hee was the king of righteousnesse and peace without father without mother hauing neyther beginning of his dayes nor ende of his life and remaining a Priest for euer without partner or successour but of sacrificing bread and wine as you say Melchisedec did Saint Paul saith nothing Phil. The Fathers do almost euerie one of them Theo. I doe not deny the resemblace to be both tolerable and vsuall among the fathers but I say the scriptures haue no such thing Phil. Sainct Paul himselfe maketh an whole discourse to proue the Sacrament to bee the Sacrifice of Christs body and blood in the church Theo. Where In his Apocalypse which your law mentioneth Phi. No Sir I alleadge his canonicall writinges Theo. Where may a man seeke to finde it Phil. Looke our obseruations vppon his 10. chapter of the first to the Corinthians Theo. Nay in your obseruations I knowe wee shall finde many thinges that are not in the scriptures they were purposely made that where your religion stood not in the text at lest it might stand in the gloze but I would heare Saint Paul saye so much or but halfe such a worde and then I were aunswered Phi. In all that discourse you may obserue that our bread and chalice our table and Altar the participation of our host and oblation bee compared or resembled point by point in all effectes conditions and proprieties to the Altars hosts sacrifices and immolations of the Iewes and Gentiles Which the Apostle would not nor could not haue doone in this Sacrament of the Altar rather than in other Sacramentes or seruice of our religion if it onely had not been a Sacrifice the proper worship of God among the Christians as the other were among the Iewes and Heathen Theo. Tel me not what I may obserue but what you can conclude Is the worde sacrifice attributed to the Lordes Table in that chapter Phi. By resemblaunce and comparison it is Theophil Speake first whether so much bee expressed by the Apostle in plaine wordes and then after wee will examine what may bee collected Philand In plaine wordes it is not but point by point it is compared in all effects conditions and proprieties to the altars hostes sacrifices and immolations of the Iewes and Gentiles Theo. Where is this resemblaunce of your bread and Chalice table and altar host and oblation point by point in all effectes conditions and proprieties to the altars hostes sacrifices and immolations
And therefore though the wordes cary a double sense yet we admit them both so you adore Chriâ—t and not the creatures of bread and wyne in his steed which Nazianzene was farre from allowing and his sister from doing For speaking in the same place of the mysticall elements which you woulde haue the people to adore as Christ he saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If any where about her she found part of the figures of the sacred body and blood which her hande had layd vp in stoare watering that with teares not adoring it with diuine worshippe shee departed presently cured of her disease That which you affirme to bee the real and natural flesh and blood of Christ shee had about her as many men and weomen vsed in the primatiue church to carie the same about them and yet shee did not adore that which she had in her hand but him that is serued and honored on the Altar or table of the Lord. Phil. You pare these places with certaine circumstances I know not how But S. Denys the Apostles scholer made a solemne inuocation of the Sacrament after Consecration in these woordes But thou O diuine and most holy Sacrament shewe thy selfe plainely to vs and brighten the eyes of our mynde with thy singular light that can not bee couered You aske proofe for adoration of the Sacrament wee shewe you where the Apostles scholer prayed to the blessed Sacrament in expresse woordes and higher adoration than prayer there can bee none What woulde you more Theo. Wee woulde haue you regard if not your consciences before God yet your credites before men Phi. Doe wee not so thinke you when wee ioyne with Saint Pauls scholer and teach the people to doe as hee did Theo. O wicked and wilfull corruption Phi. Corruption Why What Wherein Theo. The prayer which hee maketh to the sonne of God you wrest to the corporall and externall creatures Phi. No sir that shift will not serue His woordes bee But thou O diuine and most holy Sacrament which hee spake after consecration and yet you will not acknowledge them you bee so furiously bent against the blessed Sacrament Theo. After consecration what 's that Was hee at masse when hee made this prayer Phi. Hee made this inuocation of the Sacrament after Consecration Theo. Did ye euer read the woordes Phi. Twenty times Theo. Where was the host when hee made this prayer Phi. What can I tell To the host he made it Theo. Was he praying at the Altar or writing in his studie when he vttered these wordes Phi. What is that to vs Theo. You say hee prayed to the host and that after Consecration where hee good man was busie at his booke and beseeching God to lighten his vnderstanding that hee might write the trueth Phi. Wheresoeuer hee was hee sayth O thou diuine and most holy Sacrament Theo. Did hee write in Latin or in Greeke Phi. In Greeke What then Theo. The woorde Sacrament is not Greeke Phi. No. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the Greeke woorde but that in Latin is the Sacrament Theo. Graunt the Greeke woorde were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are there no mysteries besides the Sacrament Philand Yeas There are mysteries that are not the Sacrament Theoph. You shall otherwise not only enlarge the limits of your masse to containe your seuen Sacramentes but also multiplie the number of your seuen sacramentes to seuen thousand times seuen For al secrets and wonders in heauen earth and hel which passe the reach or knowledge of the naturall or regenerate man bee mysteries Phi. In deede a mysterie is a secrete as well as a Sacrament Theo. And that in euil things as well as in good As the mysterie of iniquitie the mysterie of the woman and beast on which the whore of Babylon sate Phi. All this is true Theo. And as in euill so in good thinges Saint Paul sayth often The mysterie of God and of Christ. As when hee signifieth to the Colossians his care for them to know the mysterie of God euen the father and of Christ and so the mysterie of fayth of the Gospel of Godlynes and such like Phi. Uery wel Theo. As these be mysteries because they be secrets aboue our natural capacitie though reueiled vnto vs by God in his word so is the nature of God a most incomprehensible mysterie namely the mysterie of the blessed trinitie which is neither expresseable in our words nor conceiueable with our heartes Phi. This we doubt not of Theo. So is there the mysterie of Christes incarnation of his death and passion of his resurrection and ascension and of a thousand such which Christ calleth the mysteries of the kingdome of God and Paul meaneth when he saith Let a man so esteeme vs as the Ministers of Christ and disposers of Gods mysteries And for that cause the whole Gospel is called a mysterie hid since the world began and from all ages but nowe made manifest to his Saints Phi. This is not to our purpose Theo. I thinke it bee not you haue vtterly peruerted the wordes of Dionysius if that bee his worke and those were his wordes which you alleage and nowe you are loth to see it Phi. Conuince vs before you condemne vs. Theo. What other conuiction neede wee than your own conclusioÌ„ Dionysius speaking to Christ saith at lest as you suppose Thou diuine and most holy mysterie replenish the eyes of our soules with thy singular and vnextinguished light You because the word mysterie when it is applied to corporall and externall creatures doeth sometymes signifie a sacrament haue robbed Christ of his honor and giuen it to the element of bread and slaundered that writer whatsoeuer hee was for an open Idolater like to your selues Are not the people well holpe vp to trust such gamsters as you bee that leade them to so daungerous impietie with such manifest impudencie Phi. Your railing vayne is come vpon you Theo. And what vaine is come on you that will rather make a shipwracke of your owne and other mens saluations than you will seeme to relent from your errors Phi. It is no error The. It is an impious and haynous error and you bolster it vp with as euill wicked meanes that is by corrupting and forcing other mens writings to beare out your doings Phi. Dionysius in that whole chapter treateth of nothing but of the Sacrament Theo. And the Sacrament consisting of two partes an earthly and an heauenly the heauenly part of the sacrament is Christ. Why might hee not therefore make his prayer vnto Christ to direct his pen before hee assayed to treat of those mysteries Phi. So hee did but yet intending to pray to Christ hee speaketh to him in the Sacrament Theoph. It is one thing to pray to the sacrament as you though falsely say S. Denys did and an other thing to pray to him that is euery where present in that hee
is God and hath a speciall kinde of operation by the power and grace of his flesh and blood in the sacred mysteries as hee is man vnited in the same person with God And yet these wordes doe not import him to bee in the sacrament Certainely Christs diuine and humane nature were most woonderfull mysteries before this Sacrament was ordayned and all the wordes that your author vseth if they were as you cite them are onely these Thou diuine and most holy mysterie which agree to Christ without any respect of the Sacrament more properly and truly than to your host or chalice Philand Yet they may bee taken as spoken to the sacrament and therefore wee did not peruert them we did but preferre that construction before the other Theo. That is where diuine honour was giuen to christ you deriue it from him to the host Phi. Not from him but finding him truely and corporally present in the sacrament there we honor him where we find him Theo. Your doings we know but Dionysius words haue no such sense Philand They may haue and that sufficeth vs. Theo. But if by them you will prooue so great a matter as this is which we nowe haue in hand they must necessarily enforce your exposition and not indifferently beare an other as well as yours or rather better This answere might suffice if Dionysius had vsed the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you suppose he did but now his text is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But O most diuine and holy expiation or Sacrifice reueiling the enigmaticall couerings which are figuratiuely adiacent vnto thee bee opened clearly vnto vs Or if any man like rather to haue it an Apostrophe to a thing lacking life such as the learned are well acquainted with and the Scriptures often vse he may interprete it neerer to the right signification of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and say but O most diuine and sacred rite or institution referring it to that manner and order of celebrating the Lords supper which Christ first ordayned and may properly be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Howsoeuer it is euident hee maketh no inuocation of the host or chalice nor speaketh to them but calleth them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aenigmaticall vayles or integuments figuratiuely adherent or annexed to the perfection of the mysteries Phi. Runne you for refuge to the Rhetoritians Theo. As though the scriptures were not full of the like speaches Ioshua sayd Thou sunne stand stil in Gibeon and thou moone in the valley of Aialon And so the man of Iudah O Altar Altar thus sayth the Lord behold And Esai him-selfe beganne his prophesie with Heare O heauens and hearken O earth Phi. Those were speaches not prayers as this is Theoph. They bee all imperatiue moodes as well as this and so is that saying of Dauid Lyft vp your heades ye gates and bee yee lift vp you euerlasting doores and the king of glory shall come in which yet is no prayer to the doores The moode of it selfe is not precatiue except the person bee such as wee must not commaunde but onely intreate and beeing vsed to thinges without life it sheweth the desire of our heart touching them not any supplication vnto them And therefore you doe not onely the diuines but also the Grammarians wrong when you conclude an inuocation of the Sacrament out of Dionysius woordes because the verbes bee imperatiue For the woord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contayneth the whole action institution and celebration of the Lordes Supper yea the inwarde grace as well as the outwarde elements and Dionysius might say to Christes ordinance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bee opened vnto vs without inuocation of the host or Chalice as well as Dauid sayde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be you lifted vp to the gates and yet made them no Gods Phi. Yet by this place you see Christ is couered with the formes of bread and wyne as with garments and that is woorde for worde our opinion Theo. Adde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 figuratiuely as your author doeth and then both your reall presence is ouerthrowen and the doctrine which wee teach clearely established For wee confesse that Christ worketh in vs and presenteth himselfe vnto vs in these mysteries as it were in certaine vayles and couerings Which mystically by way of signification and spiritual operation containe and clothe his grace and truth but not really nor by material or corporall inclusion as you affirme and so himselfe expresseth his mynd in this very chapter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The reuerent or venerable signes by which Christ IS SIGNIFIED and emparted vnto vs being set on the Altar Christ is signified and receiued by these signes and figures and to him not to the sacrament spake Dionysius if that were his worke but that Christ is locally or substancially closed within the formes of breade and wine or that hee prayed to the host and Chalice Dionysius hath no such sense nor wordes Phi. To Christ hee spake we doubt it not mary when he was couered with signes and figures of bread and wyne Theo. Signes and figures the auncient fathers doe not take for shewes and accidents as you doe but for substantial and vsuall creatures such as you may not adore Phi. We say no. Theo. Of that anon in the meane tyme well you may thinke that had you beene in Dionysius place you would haue prayed to the Sacrament but his woords import no such matter Philand Why shoulde not hee as well as the rest of the godly The whole Church crieth vpon it Domine non sum dignus Deus propitius esto mihi peccatori Lambe of God that takest away the sinnes of the world haue mercie on vs. Theo. Whome meane you by the whole Church your selues or all the Godly since Christ Philand Neuer aske that question they did as wee doe and wee doe as they did Theo. If you speake of your selues then here is the witnes of your owne mouth that you CRY VPON IT I meane on your host which in substance is a base and corruptible creature O Lorde O God O Lambe of God that takest away the sinnes of the worlde haue mercie on vs. What greater sinne did they commit which sayde to a stocke thou art my Father and to a stone thou hast begotten mee whom the holy Ghost hath traduced for a memorable and yet detestable crewe of Idolaters Whether it is greater to bee a father or to be a God to beget or to take away the sinnes of the world They sayd the one you say the other who can forbid the banes but that you shoulde be coupled with them if not preferred before them as more outragious in dishonoring God than they were Phi. Doe wee not this to Christ and is hee not woorthie of it Theoph. Why then doe you cry on it and not on him Philand Wee be perswaded that when wee call on it wee call on him Theo. So were they that
the faithfull stand in to this day This faith and confession if you infringe of violate you ioyne handes with Eutyches against the church of God and against the groundes of our common creede and this you must needes impugne if you defend the naturall body of Christ to be euery where present as you would gather out of Ambroses and Chrysostomes wordes Philand Wee say not euerie where but in the Sacrament Theoph. But their wordes are euerie where Vnus vbique est Christus one Christ is euerie where Philand That is in the Sacrament Theophil That is your additament They say generally one Christ is euerie where Phil. To say that his humane nature is euerie where without any restraint were in deede a braunch of Eutyches errour Theophil And since they say so you must either vnderstande it of his diuine nature which is rightly and truely sayde to bee euerie where present without addition or else of the spirituall and effectuall presence of his bodie which entereth the soules and strengthneth the hearts of all the faythfull by the power of his grace and trueth of his promise And either of these wayes their wordes are verie sound your locall presence no part of their speech Phi. S. Chrysostom saith Omnium manibus pertractatur he is eueÌ„ handled with al men fingers Theo. You do that father very much wrong to wrest his eloquent and figuratiue speeces to your carnall and grosse surmises The verie tenor of his wordes wil declare that hee meaneth nothing lesse than your corporal and locall touching With our bodily hands wee neither can nor doe touch Christ. S. Ambrose saith Non Corporali tactu ChristuÌ„ sed fide tangimus We touch not Christ with our fingers but with our faith And so S. Austen Ipsum iam in caelo sedentem manu contrectare non possimus sed fide contingere We cannot handle Christ with our fingers sitting now in heauen but with our faith we may In this sense Chrysostomes wordes are very true but nothing to your corporall vbiquitie of Christs flesh Phi. How shall wee know that this was his meaning finding no words of his to direct vs to that sense Theo. His speech is otherwise so false that none but Iesuits would make any doubt of it And yet the very next wordes before these are a plain admonition to the hearers what to conceiue of this such like places Annon euestigio in caelos transferris annon carnis cogitationem omnem abijâ—iens nudo animo mente pura circumspicis quae in caelo sunt Art thou not presently caried vppe to heauen Doest thou not casting all cogitation of thy fleshe aside with a pure mind and soul seuered from the bodie looke round on the things which are in heauen In this spirituall and yet hyperbolicall vehemencie he goeth on amplifieng euery poinct saying that Christ is handled with al their fingers and that in the open sight of all that stoode about concluding no corporall or locall comprehension of Christ in the Sacrament by any of these mysticall and figuratiue speaches whereof he is ful but only that grace flowing into the Sacrifice should inflame all their hearts and make them cleaner than siluer purged and tried in the fier This is the presence of Christ which Chrysostome auoucheth euen the influence of his heauenly grace that spiritual force and grace as Gregorie saith may very wel be constered to be the trueth of his bodie and bloud in the mysteries So that the same christ is euery where present not by local or corporal diffusion but by mysticall operation and one bodie is proposed to all not to â—ill their mouthes but to clense their hearts and to giue them assurance of eternall life Phi. May not the body of Christ in the sacrament bee such as wee defend though his bodie in heauen be not Theo. If the body of Christ in the sacrament be the very same that is in heauen how can it so much differ from it If it be an other how can it be his since he hath but one naturall bodie and that by no meanes capeable of such contrarieties as you imagine Phi. Is not Christ omnipotent Theo. Almightie hee is in working his will not in changing his nature Phi. Wil you limite his might Theo. The christian faith is not repugnant to his might but agreeable to his trueth which you may not subuert with a pretence of his power at your pleasures Tertullian saith very wel If in our owne presumption we abruptly vse this reasoâ— nothing is hard to God wee may faine what we list of God as though he had doone it because he could do it We must not because he can doe all things therefore beleeue he hath doone that which he hath not But we must search whether he hath doone it or no. For this respect some things may be hard vnto God himselfe to witte that which he hath not doone not because he could not doe it but because he would not Phi. Can not the power of Christ alter the nature of his manhoode Theo. Were it possible that the manhoode of Christ might be changed and altered in his essentiall proprieties which assertion the Church yet alwayes reiected as hereticall why stand you so much on this what Christ can doe when you plainly perceiue by your Creed what Christ will doe Shal his power ouerthwarte his will Or his arme disappoint his mouth We neede not dispute whether it be possible or no this sufficeth vs that the Lorde himselfe saith he will leaue the world and be no more in the worlde Whatsoeuer he can doe this we be sure he will doe his worde is trueth and his will knowen against that if you stand and oppose his power to make him a lyar assure your selues hee hath power enough to be reuenged on your obstinacie for vrging his power which is no part of your care against his wil which he hath commanded you to beleeue and obay Phi. It is you that neither beleeue his wil nor agnise his power we build our selues on both Theo. His wordes by which you gather his will you â—rame and inuert to your owne purposes and when we would reduce you from the misconstruction of his speach by the very tenor of the Christian faith you pleade his power to delude his trueth and ouerflorish a lewd heresie with a shew of his omnipotencie Phi. We do not pretend that power of God for any vntrueth Theo. If the Christian faith bee trueth you vrge his power against his trueth Phi. Go we against the Christian faith Theo. Confesse you the distinction of two natures in Christ after his ascension Phi. We do Theo. And the proprieties of either to remaine without confusion conuersion or alteration Philand What els Theophil This then is the Christian faith that hâ—th natures in Christ now doe and euer shall keepe and continue their seuerall and different proprieties without
depart because he that is the author of the gift is also the witnesse of the trueth For the inuisible priest turned the visible creatures into the substance of his bodie and bloud with his word and secret power saying take eate this is my body and repeating the sanctification he saide take drinke this is my bloud Therefore as at the Lordes becke commaunding the high heauens the deepe waters the wide earth were made on the suddaine of nothing so with like force in the spiritual Sacraments when his power commandeth the effect followeth These words be plaine enough if either truth or authority can content you The. Either shal content me if I may be sure of either Phi. Here you find both Theo. Who wrate this sermon which you cite Phi. Eusebius Emissenus Theo. When liued he Phi. Why doe you aske Theo. Reason we knowe his age before we receiue his testimonie Phi. His age I can tell you is as ancient as his doctrine Theo. I thinke both of one antiquity For neither the maÌ„ nor the matter were knowen in the church of Christ for 900. yeares and vpward Phi. How you be deceiued S. Hierom maketh mention of Eusebius Emissenus that wrate short homilies vpon the Gospels somewhat before his time Theo. And that made your fellowes put his name to certaine latine homilies that were none of his and to beare men in hand he was a frenchman but when he liued they can not tell Phi. Yes S. Hierom saieth hee died vnder Constantius more than twelue hundred yeares ago Theo. Eusebius Emissenus then wrate and then died but who wrate these latine homilies that were extant in his name Phi. Himselfe Theo. What countriman was he Phi. I thinke a Frenchman Theo. So Canisius both your collegue and the compiler of your huge chaos or catechisme sayeth marie when he liued that hee could not tell and therefore of his owne authoritie placeth him 200. yeres after S. Hierom with a perchaunce least if we should aske him for his proofe he might be taken with a lie His wordes are Eusebius Emissenus Gallus cuius habentur homiliae hoc fortè tempore claruit Eusebius Emissenus of Fraunce whose homilies wee haue extant perhaps liued at this time that is 500. yeres after Christ. Phi. And so it may be The. But this is not he that S. Hierom speaketh of For he died vnder CoÌ„stantâ—us whose raign and life ended 343. after Christ. Phi. The elder hee was the better his credit for this question Theo. But the worst is that Eusebius Emissenus was a Bishop in Syria wrate in greeke and therefore to assigne him latine homilies and to suppose him to bee a frenchman was a very grosse corruption and such as children will deride Phi. Might there not be an other of that name Theo. Ye as in that place but in Fraunce there could bee none Phi. Why not Theo. Because Emesenus doth signifie Bishop of Emesa in Syria where this Eusebius liued and as S. Hierom writeth was buried at Antioch the chiefe Metropolis of Syria Phi. But this is Eusebius Emissenus which Gratian alleadgeth Theo. It is not the first word by fiue hundred that Gratian hath altered For Eusebius Emesenus Sainct Hieroms certificate is verie good for Eusebius Emissenus the first record that we finde is in Gratian where by the verie stile periods casures members and agnominations you may perceiue him to be a latinist as Canisius addetâ— a Frenchman Now in what age he liued in what place he preached we require some proofe before we can or will admit these things to be his which you haue forged in his name Emissenus must be a deriuatiue from some place shew any such place in Europe and then you saie somewhat for the likelyhood though not enough for the certainty of this writer Philand What if we can not Theophil Then hee that hath but halfe an eye may soone discerne 〈◊〉 treacherie Your Monks Friers seeking to colour their fained holines late sprong faith with the reuereâ—d titles of aâ—cient fathers prâ—fered the names of Austen Ambrose HieroÌ„ Cyprian Isidore others before diuerse of their own dâ—â— fe◠〈…〉 finding in S. Hierom Eusebius Emesenus to be an old writer gaue him a new liuerie with the rest and ascribed certaine latin homilies such as they had vnto him whom themselues or Gratian that first lighted on this old new writer corruptly called Eusebius Emissenus And because the forgerie did hardly hang together the right Eusebius beeing a Gretian and of great antiquity Canisius the generall Atturnie for your religion hath deuised twoe more of that name one a french-man that perchance he saith florished in the fift Centurie and an other that wrate after Gregory the great and expounded the ghospels but when either of them liued or where they taught neither he nor you can bring vs any proofe besides your bare and vaine supposals Phi. Wil you not trust the inscription of the worke it selfe Theo. That were the way to let euery frier and forgerer create new fathers at his pleasure It is as easie for them that copie out other mens workes to make false as true inscriptions and so haue your Monkes plaied with euery father that was ancient as the most partiall of your owne side doe confesse and in this is too apparent For how many mens names thinke you did this homilie beare which you alleadge not yet two hundreth yeres ago Phi. What can I tel Theo. Then I can Looke in Walden and in one Chapter you shal find this very sermon beare three mens names Phi. Is that possible Theo. The lesse possible the thing the more palpable your forging In the 67 chapter his aduersarie alleaged the woordes which you bring out of Isidore in his sermon beginning with Magnitudo caelestium That Walden doth not much impugne but very often so calleth him and yet at length remembring himselfe he or some man for him yeeldeth to the decrees and calleth that writer Eusebius Emisenus by Gratians authority marie with a single s where now a double is gotten both into the worde and into Gratian and yet in the 68 chapter forgetting what he him selfe or others for him had done he citeth an other part of the same sermon vnder Anselmus name Ratificat eandem coÌ„parationem in sermone sâ—pe dicto qui incipit Magnitudo caelestiuÌ„ Anselmus dicens This comparison Anselmus doth ratifie in his sermon often spoken of which beginneth Magnitudo caelestium though afterward in the same chapter he returne againe to his former staggering and call the writer of your wordes Isidore or rather Eusebius Phi. Let him be Isidore or Eusebius we care not whether Theo. Since the Sermon is not his whose name it beareth we may not suffer you to choppe names as you list neither neede we so much as regard the words before wee know the author lest we reuerence lewd and late
you suffer the father him-selfe to tell out his owne tale and bee content to heare as well the ending as the entring of it Hee saieth the bread is chaunged in nature into the flesh of Christ by the almightie power of the woorde expressing in what into what and by what the bread is chaunged moe parts you cannot make Phi. Wee need not Theo. And yet all these notwithstanding he meaneth no materiall nor corporall change of the bread or wine but that as in the person of Christ there were two distinct perfect substances vnited and ioyned the one his manhood that was seene the other his godhead that was hid euen so to the visible Sacrament persisting in his former substance doth the diuine essence infunde it selfe after a secret and vnsearchable manner proouing the presence of an heauenly vertue to bee there by the inuisible efficience Philand If you will haue the bread keepe his proper and perfect both nature and substance what change is there made in the bread Theoph. This chaunge is not the casting awaie of any thing that was in the bread either nature or substance but the casting vnto it of an heauenly and inuisible grace and so Theoâ—orete expresseth the mutation that is in this sacrament Non naturam ipsam transmutans sed naturae adiiciens gratiam Not changing or casting away nature it selfe but adding grace vnto nature And that is S. Ambrose his meaning when hee saieth Sunt quae erant in aliud commutantur The bread and wine are the verie same that they were both in nature and substance and are changed into an other thing Philand How can this be that they should be changed and yet continue the same but as wee expound it that in substance they be chaunged and yet in shew continue as they were before Theoph. This is your fansie wee know but the learned fathers by their change meane no such thing they teach not any detraction or diminution of that which was but an adiection and apposition of that which was not And therefore they witnes both as well the permanence of the elements in their former nature as their change into an other Chrysostome said as you heard before The bread sanctified is counted worthie to be called the Lordes bodie etsi natura panis in ipso permansit though the nature of bread remaine there still and Theodoret Neque enim signa illa mystica post sanctificationem recedunt à sua natura those mysticall signes doe not by Consecration depart from their nature And Gelasius Non tamen desinit esse substantia vel natura panis vini and yet the substance or nature of bread wine doth not cease or perish And to this verie sacrament S. Austen applâ—eth this Rule Omnis res naturam veritatem illarum rerum in se continet ex quibus conficitur Euerie thing containeth or keepeth the nature truth of those things of which it consisteth Phi. You refuâ—â— Cyprian you doe not expound him He saith the nature of the bread is changed you prooue it remaineth be not these contrarie Theo. Bâ— your exposition they are by ours they are not For the nature of bread wee say remaineth and is in nothing diminished but encreased with an heauenly vertue that is added to it And this though it be a chaunge to that which it was not yet is it no change from that which it was Philand That is properly chaunged which is altered from that it was Theo. And that is as properly saied to be chaunged which is increased with that it was not though it be not altered in substance from that it was The soule of man is often chaunged but neuer in substance The bodie from the cradle to the graue hath many increases and changes but in substance persisteth the same that it was before it came into the worlde Euerie thing that groweth keepeth that it had atchiueth that it had not and yet is that a change But what neede we other examples since the fathers themselues doe both by their words similitudes shew what changes they ment A childe is changed by baptisme not in loosing or altering the substance of bodie or soul which hee had but in attaining the grace blessing of God which he had not The Lorde himselfe is changed in person by his ascension not that the trueth shape or circumscription of his flesh are abolished but endued with immortall glory So shall he alter our vile bodies not by spoiling them of their substance but by imparting to them of his brightnes and as S. Paul writeth We shall not all sleepe but we shall be changed Phi. S. Pauls wordes are nothing to the Sacrament Theo. They are somwhat to the vse of the word which I proposed and yet Ireneus doth not sticke to resemble the change in the Sacrament to the verie hope and assurance which our bodies now haue of that glorie before they be changed or haue cast off their mortal and earthly corruption As saith he the bread which is of the earth receiuing the inuocation of god is now no common bread but the Eucharist consisting of two things an earthlie an heauenlie so our bodies receiuing the Eucharist be now not corruptible that is not wholly destinated to corruption as hauing hope of resurrection Phi. But S. Ambrose repeateth examples of corporall and substantial changes when he would proue that blessing in this sacrament ouerbeareth nature Theo. S. Ambrose doth not say that the bread is changed after the same manner but meaning to shew that praier and benediction worketh where nature cannot yea many times altereth nature hee bringeth seauen examples whereof fiue are no substantial changes in the end concludeth that if the praiers speech of meÌ„ could turn alter things aboue against nature much more can the word of christ bring to passe that the elements shal bee that they were yet be changed into that they were not and which by nature they are not Phi. He hath no such wordes in that chapter Theo. His conclusion there is this Sermo ergo Christi qui potuit ex nihilo facere quod non erat non potest ea quae sunt in id mutare quod non erant The worde of Christ who could of nothing make that which was not can hee not change those things which are into that which before they were not And in the next booke intitled De Sacramentis assuming the same matter and producing almost all the same examples and arguments he resolueth in these wordes Si ergo tanta vis est in sermone Domini Iesu vt inciperent esse quae non erant quanto magis operatorius est vt sint quae erant in aliud commutentur If there bee such force in the worde of the Lord Iesu that the things which were not at his worde beganne to be how much