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A13877 An ansvvere to a supplicatorie epistle, of G.T. for the pretended Catholiques written to the right Honorable Lords of her Maiesties priuy Councell. By VVater [sic] Trauers, minister of the worde of God. Travers, Walter, 1547 or 8-1635. 1583 (1583) STC 24180.7; ESTC S118501 163,528 396

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out the filthe and pollutions wherewith thei had defiled the Lordes Temple and to reforme it so as the primitiue and auncient beautie and holinesse of it maie shine and appeare in it again How should wee fall before them in the battaile or feare the daie of encountryng with them in disputation The Lord goeth out before our armies his holie Arke dwelleth emongest vs his siluer Trumpets sound continually in our eares Which are sure vndoubted arguments that as heretofore we haue often preuailed against them so now muche more that our enemie so oftentimes foiled bee he neuer so obstinate yet can neuer be able to hurte vs or if he doe it shal be onely thus accordyng to the promise he maie bruse our heele but we shall burst his head in péeces Thus much for his first way sf disputation wherein I haue shewed that oftentymes by conference in speeche thei haue fled before vs. Concerning disputatiō by writyng al the world is full of the learned workes of our worthy fathers and brethrē wherein thei haue bothe taught the truthe and worthely maintained it againste the wicked flaunders and obiection of the aduersarie and conuicted theim of as notorious and pernicious heresies as euer haue been since the misterie of Iniquitie began to woorke What should I recken vp here whiche are infinite the names whiche are written in the booke of life of our moste worthie fathers and brethren who beyonde the Seas haue aunswered all their Challengers confuted their erronious and hereticall writynges and cōfirmed the truth to abide for euer Our owne countriemen haue in like sort maintained the Lords most iuste and honourable quarrell againste all suche as from emongest our selues haue beene raised vp to blaspheme the truthe Cranmer that moste reuerende and learned Father aunswered Gardener in the question of the Lordes Supper to the iustifiyng of the truthe and his owne euerlasting praise with God and men and the iust confusion of his aduersarie For their bolde Hardyng in whom they trusted for a tyme wee had a precious Iewell riche in spirituall graces of infinite more valewe without comparison Their Marshalles Rastalles Dormans and the rest of that olde rabble and of this newe charge their Allens Bristowes and Campions haue all found men to aunswere them through the grace of God of suche godly learnyng sufficiencie and blessyng vppon their labours as by the Lordes mercie we maie saie with the Prophett Thei came about vs like Bees but are extinct as a fire of thornes thei came in confidence of them selues but in the name of the Lorde of Hostes we haue preuailed against them Wherefore hauyng thus been fought with at all the weapons wherein they supposed they had any skill and their shieldes beaten to their heades so often and pearced through what a wrangling contencious and obstinate Aduersarie is this that will yet renewe more chalenges and boast that we dare Neither abroade with neuer so muche securitie nor at home vppon our owne grounde shewe our selues in disputatiō against them Whether would they haue vs to goe to Roome or to Rhemes to dispute with them there What indifferent Iudges or witnesses maie wee haue to dispute of the goodnesse of the finest Wheate and the naughtinesse of weedes in a Seminarie of tares What securitie can we looke for at their handes whose Religion it is to deale vnfaithfully with vs and to breake any faithe of a holy Priest as thei would bee thought or the royall worde and faithe of Kynges and Princes to feede their cruell eyes to see vs burne in the middest of their flamyng fires Their Cannons teache that faithe is not to bee kept with an Heriticke and such they iudge vs as Tertulles did the Apostle And this is no olde forgotten Cannon and worne out of vse but reuiued by the wicked practise of the faithlesse councell of Constance and the disloyall Emperour Sigismund constrained by them to that dishonor cōtrary to his safe conduit graūted to those constant Martirs of Christ faithful plaine Ihon Hus and the learned and eloquēt Ierome of Prage If euer thei would keepe any faithe with vs thei would surely haue kept that beyng giuen in the worde and solemne instrument of an Emperour And if that were not sufficient what securitie will they giue vs or because wee can not safely rest vpon any warrant of theirs who so traiterously disloyally haue falsified their owne deede and therfore haue iustly lost their creditte with vs and are banckeruptes as touchyng their faithe Will thei because we neuer brake with them come to suche places as we shall appoint them If we shall wish thē to come to Geneua in Sauoy to Newstade in Bauire to Rochell in Fraunce or such like places wil thei not complaine that their audience can not bee indifferent what remaineth then but to dispute in writyng whiche as we haue doen hitherto to the iust defence of the truthe against them so by the grace of God some of vs wil be alwaies readie to doe hereafter But if thei would haue their bookes to pas fréely without restraint and all men to be allowed to reade them let thē first assure vs that thei will leaue it free for all suche as are abused by them to reade ours For we are not ignorant of their discipline though most dissolute where it should be straitest yet herein applied to the keping of the poore and ignorant which depend vppon them in that captiuitie that thei maie not once dare to reade our writynges least thei should be conuerted and repent that the Lorde might saue them For except a fewe whom thei estéeme desperate of beyng turned by any meanes to the truth thei restraine al with whom their discipline maie preuaile frō reading of our works If thei so straightly prouide to hinder the truth and to keepe captiue simple soules in their blind kyngdōe of darkenesse Muche more reason haue our Magistrates to prouide that the children of light bee not lead into darkenesse by them But if this discipline remainyng on bothe parties thei bee yet disposed to dispute to informe them selues in the truth if thei wil leaue this large maner of discoursing bitter taunts and other impertinent speeches not so fitt for tryall of a truthe and come to the sharpe poinctes of naked argumentes we are willyng to deale with them in suche order as maie be most indifferent for bothe and fittest for the information in truthe of all suche as shall after examine what hath past on bothe partes For whiche purpose it would be fittest that in euery question the contradictorie beyng taken the one parte for that whiche he holdeth in the question laied out his argumentes taken onely out of the holy Scriptures whiche is the onely competent Iudge in this cause concluded in good forme of Syllogisme without any further deduction of the matter then should be necessarie for the better vnderstanding of the termes which needes must be vsed of the application of the places
workes of suche good writers as haue profitably trauailed in that study Amongst whom the ancient fathers are worthely accounted who no doubt by their earnest praier to God by help of the tongs and many artes and sciences and especially study and exercise in the worde of God haue left vs great helpe and furtheraunce in many things Which age was surely a happie and golden age in respect of many excellent wits which the Lord gaue to his church in those daies much about one time in an age or two togeather For both their mutual examples greatly furthered their diligence and the daungers of many subtle and cunning heretickes with whome they were to deale for the maintenance of the truth By which and such like meanes it pleased God singularly to blesse the moste of them with greate skill and iudgement in the scriptures especially in such points as their wits were most exercised in by occasion of aduersaries For which as they shyned in their time like burning lamps in the golden candlestick and as faire and bright stars in the firmament of the Church so we both reuerence their worthy memory and read diligently their learned writings Wherin if we find that by al the meanes God gaue vnto thē they shewe vs by conference of the scriptures the true meaning of them and help to teache vs where an Apostle plainly expoundeth a Prophet or where a Prophet giueth light to vnderstand that which is obscure in an Apostle We receiue it with their iust cōmendation and praise and with thanksgiuing to God and vse it to the edification of the church But if at any time for want of leasure and diligence or for some humane affectiō or because it pleased God they shold be cōtented with such a measure of his giftes who bestoweth his spirite as pleaseth him we find any thing mistaken in some place of scripture not vnderstood or wrested from his sence some pointe of faith not agreable to the body of doctrine deliuered vnto vs by the prophets Apostles thē without their reproch with acknowledgement of the infirmitie that is in man we leaue them and rest vpon the authority of those who are fathers both to them and vs. More then this what he can giue to the fathers I doe not see if he will binde vs alwaies to their exposition thē let him shew vs to what fathers and to what points of thē séeing want hath bin found in the best of thē If to the consent then let him shew whō and how many he wil consort sufficient ground why the doctrine of religion shold be ruled by thē For our sauior Christ his Apostles neuer left vs any such rule And yet if it were lawful for vs to leaue the trial of the word to argue it by their authority we are neuer a whit the nerer for any end of our controuersies For if the writings of the holy scriptures endited thorowout by the spirit of truth euery where cōsorant to it self be subiecte to this to be diuersly expounded how much more shal the writings of mē not only by possibility subiect to erre to dissent frō them selues but which indéed haue erred forgotten them selues so far as in one place to contrary that which they haue set down in another how much more I say shal such writings be diuersly drawn into sundry expositions And thē who shal determine of the true meaning of the fathers If it might be iuged according to truth we doubt not but euen by them to proue against our aduersaries most of the things which are in questiō betweene vs he apointeth a way which is the secōd cause he assigneth of the vniō of their churh that is the determinatiō of the suprem pastor meaning that B. of R. wherby he maketh cōmon the roial stile title of christ with euery Boniface Gregory euery vnlearned monk vngodly priest which shal come to be B. of R. with the general coūcel of christiā prelats But I put the case that prelates their suprem pastor do not agrée Which is a possible case for it hath fallen out more thā once or twise thē wold I know whether the pope should be aboue the coūcel or the councel aboue that P. I see both by that generally our english papists ar more giuē to hold with the P. by this authors setting this down that the pope with thē is to bear the bel away And so the truth of God which is not to be ouer ruled by al mē shal be cōtrolled by one many times an ignorāt frier of litle learning an ambitious prelate of great presumptiō folly But if they shold agrée yet is that no sufficiēt warrant for vs. For daily is it fulfilled in the doctrine of the gospel that which once was performed in the person of our sau Christ that the Mr. builders of the house of god reiect the chiefe corner stone The hie priests the Scribes Pharises Elders the hie consistory of the whole visible church thē vpō earth cōdemned the holy one of god Mat. 26.65.66 Es 53.7 they pulled fléece frō the lamb and droue the sheepe before thē to the slaughter who opened not his mouth Likewise Annas high priest Chaiphas high priests at the cōdemnatiō of Christ with Iohn Alexander all the rest of the house stock of the high priest with Scribes Elders of the people condemned the doctrine of the gospel Acts. 4.5.6.17.18 and forbad the Apostles with straight charge comminations to preach any more in the name of Iesu These whatsoeuer our aduersaries vainely apply to this purpose which is otherwise true of the greter grace of the gospel had more lawfull calling larger promises thē their B. of Rome can pretend any yet they erred not only in a mattter of fact but of faith not as priuate men but as hie priestes and that in their iudicial sentences sitting in the midst of the consistory How much more then may he who hath no such calling of supreme iurisdiction in the church nor any more by the word of God thē any minister of the gospel tho he were lawful B. be deceiued and erre euen in matters of faith and that in his iudgements pronoūced from his seat of pride And if then he be subiect to error being the head it must needs follow that the inferior members must needs be in danger of the same For which cause this can by no means be sufficient to keep the church in the vnity of one true holy faith If it had béen so fit and necessary for this purpose surely our Sauiour Christ wold neuer haue forgotten to haue mencioned it exhorted vs to obedience vnto it Ioh 13.34.14.27 who was so careful that his disciples shold cōtinue after him in the same peace which he gaue left vnto thē and the same loue wherewith he loued thē Now the Apostle so earnestly
contrary this doctrin is to al christian states and common wealths whatsoeuer whose end ought to be cheefly that their subiects liue in al true religion and honesty But how vnfit soeuer it be for christian K. and estates I confes it was a very pollitique point of doctrine for the popes kingdome For hereby he receiued a double commodity First that casting by this means his feare vpon the simple and ignorant he enioyed more quietly the possession of his tiranny ouer the Church al men standing in neede of his fatherhood and fearing to prouoke him that had suche a power to keepe them in purgatory stil or to release them Another that by his pardons and indulgences deliuering men frō this prison which he had painted in their heds he filled his coffers with treasure Where by he enioyed the more easely al the contentmentes that he desired and was the better able to maintaine his proud Antichristiā kingdome against al power that should rise against it And thus in respect of the maintenaunce of their owne kingdome I thinke there was neuer so politicke a supersticion and false worship in the world as this of the Ro. faith which whosoeuer try fro point to point shal easelie discern to be most true To the further consideration wherof leauing the discreet Reader I will procéed to the other point which remayneth which is of the reward of good and euill in the worlde to come Wherof our doctrine is sayth he that all the paynes of hell are equall and that the most wicked man that euer was shal endure no greater torment then he that is the least offender which his report of our doctrine is vtterly vntrue Wherefore let him eyther iustifie this to be true out of the confession of the faith of our Church which he ought to doe if he chalenge vs for doctrine and not to charge vs with euery thing which hath beene written by any that professe the gospell or by any wryter of ours of credite in the church or let him feare with out repentance satisfaction for it by confessing his ignorance or malice in thus slaundering the church of God the iust condemnation of lyars false witnesses whose porcion is with hypocrites He saith we teach further also that the glory of al the redeemed elect of God shal be equal that euery one shal be in as great glory as Peter Paule which is not the general doctrine of our Church Wee acknowledge that they which otherwise shal be beautifull as the firmament and they which iustifie manye shall shine is Daniel teacheth like the starres of heauē Our sauiour denied not that there should be a place at his right hande and at his left in his kingdome in the worlde to come but in this worlde tolde his Disciples that the pompe of earthly states shold not be seene in him nor in his ministers He promised vnto the Apostles seates to sit vpon to iudge the 12. Tribes of Israell And the Apostle reioyced in the hope hee had that the Thesalonians shoulde bee his Crowne in the daye of the Lorde Whereby it appeareth that as all the members are partakers of the power of the soul and haue their place and honour in the body yet they receiue not all power to doe the same worke nor are of like honour so in the misticall bodye of Christ al shal be as members of him partakers of his spirit and be filled with it for the full worke and honour of that part which they shal be in the body but not al inabled for the same worke nor of like honour But they wil say how can this be except heauen be a rewarde due vnto the worke I aunswere that according to the same grace that god giueth a diuerse measure of faith according to the diuerse measure of it the fruits thereof many or few in this life so also he disposeth of the degrees of glory in the life to come wherby it appeareth that as we truely deny all men Therefore looke what profite a Christian Common wealthe maie receiue of the doctrine of the diffrence of glory and pain in the worlde to come it receiueth it of the doctrine whiche wee teache Drawyng towardes an ende our aucthour beginneth confusedlie to heape vp many thynges together by whiche order one point might haue serued hym as well as the whole dosen For in this tenth he hath dealt with the doctrines of Repentaunce Confession Satisfaction Purgatorie of Heauen and Helle. In the eleuenth whiche followeth Of workes merite freewill and predestination he intreateth of Workes Merite Frewill and Predestination Concernyng the doctrine of Predestination wee teache saieth he In the Churche of Rome that all the Sainctes of God are Predestinate before the foundations of the worlde were laied And I saie we teache the same Therefore our doctrine herein beyng the same it must needes be no lesse profitable to any state then theirs and so no cause of this cōparison Of Freewill we teache saieth he That a man hath libertie and freedome of his will whereby beeyng preuented and assisted by Grace he maie at his pleasure doe any good Workes or refuse to doe them This doctrine in deede is neither ours nor the doctrine of Christe and his Apostles For accordyng to the truthe wee haue receiued of theim we teache that the Nature of man through the sinne of Adam is so wholy corrupted that there is no good thyng in it that of it self it cannot thinke a good thought that it is solde vnder sinne Phil. 3. Rom. 7.8 Ephes 2. and that it is enemy against God is not subiect to the lawe of GOD nor in deede can be made subiect finally that we are borne dead in our sinnes Whervpon it followeth that the will of manne beeyng a principal power of his soule it is subiect to the corruption of the whole and therefore hath no will to do that whiche is good willeth not of it self any good is seruaunt vnto sinne willeth nothyng but sinne and ennemitie with God willeth not that whiche the Law cōmaundeth but is dead in sinne Whereof it must needes followe that wee are not free in our will to will that whiche is good for our will is seruaunte to synne and therefore can not dooe the woorke of righteousnesse Our will is deade in sinne and therfore can not be a liue to righteousnesse For as a deade man can not dooe the actions of a man that liueth no more can the man that is deade in synne doe any action of will or any other that he doeth that liueth to God I meane not that our will is dead altogether no more thē that a man deade in his synnes should not liue the life of a naturall man and of this worlde but that whatsoeuer naturall power it hath it is dead as touchyng the doyng or willyng of any thyng that God hath commaunded in suche sorte as the lawe requireth There remaineth still notwithstandyng the punishement of