of many have beene necessitated to write Apologies and make defences as the Scriptures and many Authours both Antient and Moderne doe abundantly testifie So many who have maintained errours have purposely chosen the way of making Apologies and justifications both of themselves and their opinions that so by good words and faire speeches they might deceive the hearts of the simple Amongst other erroneous spirits who have used this Artifice the Brownists and Separatists have not been least as is to be seen in some of their Books The Independents and Semiseparatists have also taken up this way as heretofore so now in this present Apologeticall Narration which I shall examine and returne an Answer to with all candor fairenesse and respect both to the Authours and to the Booke so farre forth as the truth and cause of God may suffer no prejudice And I shall speake first to the Title of the Booke and then to the Booke it selfe As for the Title An Apologeticall Narration of some Ministers formerly in Exile now Members of the Assembly of Divines It might have been fitlier styl'd A Panegyricall Oration of some Ministers Or An Encomiastick For all along the discourse Encomiums and Praises are interwoven and the Authours take all occasions to extoll and magnifie both themselves and their party as many severall passages testifie Narration 1. An Accusation rather for both openly and more closely there are many dangerous insinuations and those oftentimes nothing to the matter in hand by way of derogation and depression of all Reformed Churches differing from them as the Reader may observe in these pages 2. A Narration should be plaine* cleare particular true perfect or else it answers not the nature and end of a Narrative But this Narration will be found darke doubtfull generall untrue imperfect both in matter of fact and opinion relating only part and having a Reserve Of some Ministers formerly in Exile As this is part of the Title in the Frontispiece to invite the Reader and take the people so 't is often mention'd in the body of the Book some ten times Usque ad Nauseam But into what remote and farre Countrey were you banish't and what were the Companions of your Exile Certainely the Reader into whose hands your Apologeticall Narration comes and finds both in the Title and Booke so often mention and such a matter made of Exile and banishment will thinke Alas good men into what Patmos Indies or remote wildernesse were they banish't and forâ—…'t to flye and will never imagine that these were the exiled Ministers and this their exile who in a time of common danger and suffering in their own land went with their wives children estates friends Knights Gentlemen and Citizens over into Holland where they lived in safety plenty pompe and ease enjoying their own wayes and freedome and when the coasts were cleered came over into England were entertain'd and receiv'd with all respects and applause and are now Members of the Assembly of Divines For the Booke it selfe It consists of three maine parts 1. The occasion of putting forth this Apologeticall Narration at this time 2. The Narration it selfe 3. The end and aime of it exprest in the last page of the booke To each of which parts and all the particulars I shall give a direct and positive Answer by subjoyning the Answer to every passage of the Narration whereby both being in the Readers eye he may compare them together and so judge the better both of the Apologeticall Narration and the Antapologie And I shall follow from page to page and line to line not omitting any materiall passage either in matter or manner of expression and in the matter no particular either of fact or opinion And the Reader may observe that I have tied my selfe to follow close where they lead me not taking liberty to range or digresse And this Answer though it be not written in such strong lines and inticing words as the Narration yet by the grace of God it shall excell it in plainenesse and evidence and in the words of truth and sobernesse As for this Apologeticall Narration though at the first view and reading of it it carries a face of fairenesse candidnesse modesty ingenuity especially to such who know not the Authours neither the History nor all the opinions so that the learned Licenser having lived remote till of late was strangly deceiv'd to give such a testimony to it much more may the people Yet many learned and godly Ministers who understand their way and them and have observ'd their rise progresse and proceedings in their Church way even such who are their good friends and tender enough of them have quite another opinion of their booke and judge they were much overseen in the framing of it and that they have much lost themselves by it and in due time may heare more of it as weli for the unseasonables of it as for some things contained in it My judgement of it is this That 't is indeed cunningly and advantagiously drawne up for to take and deceive good people to gather increase and confirme their party by it being full of specious and glorious pretences and all plausible seeming compliance and correspondency with the Churches they dâ—…rt from And therefore my scope in this Answer is the iâ—…avouring to undeceive the people and to wipe off the paint and to shew the snake under the greene grasse and the foule hand under the white glove and upon the through and full examination of the booke I can bring in this just charge against it That there is not only fraud in relating part of the story and opinions and not the whole holding out the bright-side of the cloud but hiding the blacke but there are many manifest untruths in some of their Relations and that even where God and men are called to witnesse And I could in most passages of the Apologie which are matters of fact write the quite contrary to what they affirme Besides that some passages in the booke crosse and enterfeere with others As also there iâ—… a dealing in generalls and in the clouds with many doubtfull and double expressions like Apollo's Oracles There being few passages of moment either in matter of fact or opinion but they are so framed that they may receive a double construction and that sense which according to Grammar and ordinary acception they carry cannot be meant Now this charge and every particular of it I shall make good in this following discourse And because they have now by Name in so open a manner appear'd in print as to present this Apologie to both Housâ—…s of Parliament I must be forc't though against my mind and contrary to my purposes and resolutions to name persons times places occasions with other circumstances which may evidence the truth of what I write to the Reader calling God to witnesse whom I desire to feare and to whom I know I must give an accompt that
liberall maintenance annually for our Ministers yea and constantly also wine for our Communions And then we againe on our parts not only held all brotherly correspondencie with their Divines but received also some of the members of their Churches who desired to communicate with us unto communion in the Sacraments and other ordinances by vertue of their relation of membership retained in those Churches In the last Section I prooved both by Letters and many other presumptions you alwayes held not that respect to the Church of England you seeme to professe in that Section if now at last you be growne more sober and wise upon reviewing your principles I am glad of it non est pudor ad meliora transire For this Section your being received and entertained with the like respect from those Reformed Churches abroad and your mutually giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship If I may beleeve reports and Letters and those not light but from Ministers and good people I have been by word of mouth told and I have in writing from thence grounds to question the truth of this Narration A godly Minister out of Holland in answer to some questions sent about the truth of your Apologie writes thus to this present Section And here I cannot but adde this that whereas the Apologeticall Narration mentions these things as an argument of the incouragements they had in these parts and their good concurrence with the Churches here it hath been affirmed to me from very good testimony that however the Magistrates at Rotterdam for politick ends as to gather company to them which is for the profit of the place yet the Churches there I meane the Dutch never approoved of the course held there by these Brethren and their people It hath been affirmed to me that many of the Dutch Ministers were much offended at Mr Bridges being ordained Minister by the Lay-elders without any preaching Presbyters And what ever right-hand fellowship and brotherly correspondency you might hold with the Dutch Divines some of the English Ministers of the Reformed Churches there have complained of your great strangenesse and distance towards them and instance hath been given me particularly by a great friend of yours now in London that when some of you have come to Amsterdam you never would goe to Mr Herrings a good old non-conformist but have gone to Mr Canne's the Separatist and to his Church And besides this report told me some yeares agoe from a friend of your owne that I might not only beleeve reports I sent over into Holland some questions about the truth of some things related by you in this Apologie the contrary whereunto I had been informed of before and among other questions upon this Section I propounded what communion and converse passed between the godly English Ministers and their Congregations and you or whether when you came to Amsterdam you went not rather to the Brownists meetings and conversed with Mr Canne more then the Reformed Ministers Unto which question I had this answer in so many words sent To this I can say that since my comming hither we have had no such communion with them as that we have prevailed with any of them to preach in our Congregation though I am sure some of them have beene earnestly importuned thereunto indeed Mr Bridge seemed once to be willing but did not And for their going to the Brownists and conversing with Mr Canne more then us that is undeniable What you may of this reade in Epistle to the Rejoinder indefence of Mr Bradshaw against Mr Canne is most true and certaine But suffer me a little to examine the particulars wherein you would proove the mutuall giving and receiving the right-hand of fellowship For the first That you were received and entertained with the like respect that you gave to our Churches in England I easily beleeve which was but little And if the Reformed Churches look't upon you and you on them as you did upon our Churches in this Kingdome you have no cause to boast here of mutuall giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship remembring what I answered to your last Section concerning your profession of our Churches As to that proofe you bring of their giving you the right hand of fellowship in their abundantly manifesting it by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects c I answer this was not to all of your Churches for Mr Simpson which yet is your way and is here owned by you all in this Apologie had not a Church or publike place for worship granted to him nor the priviledge of ringing a Bell to call to meetings but was looked upon as a Sect as Mr Bridge told me And in a Letter out of Holland from a good hand to that question Whether Mr Simpsons Church had the allowance of ringing a publike Bell to call to their meeting and whether any maintenance allowed by the States 'T is answered To this I shall say I never yet heard by any that his Church had any such allowance of Bell or maintenance by the States Now if Mr Simpsons Church was lookt upon as a Sect tollerated but not owned wanting that great signall of difference between allowed Churches and all other assemblies namely the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto their meetings and the rest of your Churches being just of the same way and constitution with his as appeares by this Apologie then the ranking of you now you are here with Sects is no great injury to you Neither will the granting to your two other Churches publike places to worship with maintenance for some of your Ministers c. free you from being lookt upon as Sects by the Churches and Ministers there but I must tell you these priviledges came from other grounds as namely one of your Churches consisting of many persons of great quality and going at first to a priviledged place the other Church having formerly been a Church in the way of the Reformed Churches there and so had then the allowance of a publike place The first sensible declining of that Church to the new-way being by Mr Peters before he went to New-England Now Mr Bridge comming to that Church and bringing with him and after him wealthy Citizens and Clothiers by which the Magistrates at Rotterdam knowing well their advantage No wonder though they permitted that Church their publike place and gave to their Ministers a full and liberall maintenance yea and Wine for their Communions and yet should gaine well by it As for your holding all brotherly correspondency with their Divines which I suppose you meane the Dutch not knowing any of them I can say nothing against it but only 't is a great presumption that holding so little brotherly correspondencie with our own English Divines there you held not much with the Dutch But grant that
their desires For instance how is a story with the Apologists practise upon it pag. 16 17 20 21. brought to prove the effectuall successe of submission and Non-communion how is their good carriage since their returne into England and their exile made use of to move for a Toleration how is all that Narration of 3 4 〈◊〉 pages of their enquirie into the Word of Christ c. laid downe as so many grounds to possesse the Reader of the truth of the Church way let the Apologeticall Narration be analiz'd and it will be found there is no point of fact or personall thing in it but is brought in some way or other as a motive or argument for their way so that of necessitie I could not avoid matter of fact unlesse I would betray the truth Paul in the second of the Galathians 11 12 13. openly rebukes Peter because he was to be blamed for his with-drawing and separating himself and because others thereupon were carried away with it and so because the Apologists doe not only withdraw and separate themselvâ—… but by their Apologeticall Narration doe even compell others also I cannot but speak 3. Propos. That 't is not argumentative against the cause that falsly called Independencie nor rationall or conducing to decide any or this controversie 1. That the Apologists and the Anatomizers way is not falsly but truly cald Independencie I referre the Reader to these pages in this present answer 201 202 203. Secondly were all the matters of fact and the Narration of them argumentative for the Apologists cause to move the Parliament and to draw the Reader to their way and is not the disproving of them argumentative against it if this be not argumentative against Independencie then I am sure the greatest part of the Apologet. Narration is nothing materiall for it and wherâ—…fore then was that storie of a Minister deposed and matter of fact upon it inserted in the Narration with many other and supposing that to be true that ther 's no reasoning from the qualitie of the person to his cause why then doe you so much doe it in your Apologie taking all occasions to magnifie your partie and reasoning from your persons to your cause from your sufferings patience c. but whether there be any strength or no in that it matters not t is strongly argumentative in any point to overthrow mens own mediums and that the Antapologie doth in a word there 's more consequence then the Anatoâ—…zer is willing to see in that maine Assertion of the Apologie That one Church may non-Communion but not excommunicate another as he termes it to the miscarriages of M. Sympson and his Church for might Presbyteriall Government take place we should not have men so easily principled into Anabaptisme nor make a covenant with separation c. as in this answer in many places is proved And so much for answer to Mr. Sympsons Book as far as it concernes the Antapologie and may be a block in the way of it Now besides this there is one objection more that hath been in the mouths of some Independents and may be instilled into many more to hinder the fruit 〈◊〉 benefit of this Answer namely against the maner of the Answer that t is 〈◊〉 Answer full of bitternesse malice reproaches railings and that t is a booke written against Gods people and good men For consutation of this objection I present to the Readers apprehension these following particulars 1. I have endeavoured for the manner of doing it that it might be without all just exceptions in regard of hard words and better speeches and I can truly say I have declined many words and phrases more proper and taken other words which in some places have readred the stile more rugged to avoide offensive phrases and all along though I often disprove matters of fact yet I never use so harsh a word to my remembrance as false much lesse a lye but untrue and this is not so whereas M. Sympson in his Pamphlet useth falsly and hath the word lye 2. I desire the conscientious indisterent Reader to consider my book is not a Treatise or Tractate upon what subject I please to speak of but an Answer and so must follow where that leads me speak to that 2. T is an Answer to a book full of matter of fact and stories of the Authours themselves so that I cannot answer without particularising the truth cannot be evidenced to the Reader without coÌ„ming somewhat to particulars 〈◊〉 The Book contains matter of high praise of themselves and their partie a few inconsiderable persons comparatively with many close indirect and dangerous insinuations against all the Reformed Churches which cannot be answered particularly without some recrimination and charge 4. There are many particulars in matters of fact I prove and charge the Apologists with and some too bad for untruth 5. I forbeare menâ—…oning the names of many particular persons which this Apologie leads me unto some wholly others I speak of only under the 〈◊〉 letter of their names and for the Apologists though I often particularly name them yet in some places of my Book and in some grosser things I forbeare particularizing them too 6. I medle not with personall things and matters of fact that are heterogeneall to relate other kind of facts and practises which I have heard on knowne of any the Apologists but speake only of such as are proper to the matter occasioned from their Apologie or the effects and fruits of their Church way the Apologists themselves giue the occasion to the laying open so many particulars which no other occasion but such an one as this could have drawn forth from me to have made their names and practices thus publike 7. In many passages of this Answer I doe upon severall occasions give the Apologists a just testimonie of that worth for parts and piety which is in them and speak to them and of them as Brethren so that let but all these things be laid together considering also the Rules of Scripture in such Cases and that I intended a plaine particular down-right Answer and this Answer will then be accounted candid moderate my peâ—…dipped in oile and not in vinegar 3. I can truly speak it that this present Antapologia is so farre from being written out of any malice or ill will to the Apologists that I love their persons and value them as brethren yea some of them above brethren and besides that love I beare to them as Saints I have a personall love and a particular love of friendship to some of them and I can truly speake it that I writ not this book nor any part of it out of any personall quarrell old grudge or former difference for to this day there never was any such difference or unkindnesse passed between us but I have writ it with much sorrow unwillingnesse and some kind of conflict in respect of that old personall love and friendship still strong in me
and censured and shall condemne and judge those Churches for renouncing communion as too severe and declaring thus to all other Churches against them what must be done in these cases will these Churches censuring now acknowledge their offence and revoke their sentence of Non-communion or if they will not what must these Churches protested unto doe in this case must not they passe the sentence of Non-communion against them and if they doe so what if these Churches censuring shall also pronounce the heavie sentence of Non-communion even against these Churches protested and declared unto Now that these things and worse may not and will not fall out cannot be denied which things as to the neighbour Churches among themselves will be great occasion of schismes and continuall differences so will they minister matter of great scandall to all other Churches and of tryumph and evill speaking unto enemies all which will be easily prevented and remedied in the Presbyteriall government Sixthly Two or three Churches or more of your Independent way living amongst other Churches as you did in Holland or if your Congregations should be tolerated in England according to your desire you may hold this principle of submission to one another and yet all agree in holding some errours with which errours you may infect many of the members of the Presbyteriall Churches for which you will not question one another what remedie or meanes is there now to reduce your Churches or preserve ours Seventhly Some of your Churches by vertue of this principle that Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches may be ever and anon unjustly calling upon some of the Churches to submit and challenging them first with being offended by them least themselves should be challenged to have offended and so as we speake call whore first and also they who are challenged to offend to be even with them will challenge them againe and what must be done in this case and who shall interpose to determine these differences or may both parties judged thus by each other to be offenders determine against one an other Eightly If Churches must thus submit to trials and examinations these being the acts of whole Churches here will be nothing but trials and examinations and censures one upon another and this instead of a sufficient remedy is like to proove a continuall vexation and molestation to neighbour Churches Ninethly What must be done in case one Church or more take offence unjustly at others and trouble them thus to call them to open examination c. what satisfaction must be given to the Church troubled and examined Tenthly In this principle of submission of Churches suppose that upon a hearing the Church offending will not redresse the grievance or relieve a person injured But goe on and slight communion with other Churches the persons injured in the meane time are debarred from the ordinances and cannot remove their dwellings without manifest ruine of their families how doth this help such persons injured or is a sufficient remedy for wrongfull sentences c. Whereas now in the Presbyteriall way if such a Minister or officers who are the cause of this may be deposed and acts passe against them and others placed in their roomes this will remedy and redresse it And so suppose a Minister of note fall into heresie and errour and draw the most of his people after him so that he cannot be deposed by the Church what good will the non-communion pronounced against this Church by other Churches do for reducing them but now if this Minister may be deposed and an orthodox Minister put in to preach the truth here is a powerfull meanes to reduce and preserve Eleventhly Let me aske you and pray determine it from the Scriptures in case two or three Churches offended doe challenge a Church or Churches offending who yet upon submitting to a hearing will not yeild to the counsell and advice of those Churches who how where after what time and how many meetings and after what manner must this sentence of non-communion be denounced against this Church or Churches whether must it be denounced in and upon the place where they meet to heare and examine or in the meeting place of each of these Churches offended or must these Churches offended meet in one of their meeting places to pronounce it together and who must be the mouth and who by warrant out of the Scriptures hath the power to pronounce that heavy sentence of non-communion and how must it be made known unto the offending Churches with other things of this like nature To say no more now this principle of non-communion is so farre from being a sufficient remedy for miscarriages or a reliefe for wrongfull sentences or a powerfull means to reduce a Church or Churches c. that 't is a remedy worse then the disease and if it should be practised would be the ground of many schismes separations mischiefes in the Church of God and that amongst whole Churches so that it were farre better particular persons should suffer wrong or particular persons fall into schisme and be left to their liberty then whole Churches suffer those evils which your principles of non-communion Declarations Protestations would undoubtedly produce as the Reader may judge by what is here written For the second your practise according to this principle occasioned upon an offence that fell out in your Churches I shall shew that as insufficient as your principles and shall animadvert upon the most solemn instances of your practise As for the Introduction into your relation of the scandall and offence I readily assent unto you had you not judged it for the advantage of your selves and way you would upon no other occasion have made it thus publike for you are good at concealing of all your principles and practises but when and where you may further and propagate your way For the story it selfe as it is related by you it is very short and generall neither expressing the Ministers name deposed nor the causes of his deposition nor the first occasion of the differences nor the way the Church took before they deposed him nor the manner how they proceeded nor how long he stood so deposed so that the Reader cannot well tell what to make of it for want of a more full particular relation or how to judge whether your principle of submission of Churches and your practise here laid downe upon it was so proper and so sufficient a remedy and so effectuall a course as you boast of in page 20 21. I must therefore of necessity in reference to the disprooving and weakning of what you would inferre from your sacred principle and supreame law of submission and the more solemne instance of your practise wherewith to vindicate your selves and way in this particular and that it may appeare it was but a
any words or phrases in that book spoken of those persons I intended them to are calumnies there is not a word but is true and many can and doe witnesse so much who yet wish the passage had been left out because then all pretence of exceptions and cavill against the book had been taken away and for the reproaches you speake of which are a matter of truth they are rather upon the opinions and principles then the persons comming to the persons from the opinions and principles received And for my own part I never wished that passage had been left out for I know no reason but when people fall into a way because of the pretence of the great holinesse and grace of the men of that way when those be the Arguments that take and deceive the people but it is the duty of him who would preserve from the errour of that way to shew the contrary effects if he can and what did I doe more For the third provocation all these heightned with this further prejudice and provocation that our silence was interpreted that we were either ashamed of our opinions or able to say little for them I conceive that in this you may aime at me as in the former and I ingenuously confesse that your silence in not answering bookes and particularly mine was interpreted so by me and I have spoken to some and spake it even while it was given out by some of you it should be answered that you would not answer it for two Reasons 1. Because you were not yet willing to make known your opinions what you held and what not the answer to which booke would necessarily have drawn out what you were not then willing to speake nor yet doe in this Apologie 2. Because being accounted Schollars if you did not answer it fully and to purpose you would rather loose then gaine in a word I thought you could not answer it satisfyingly neither were you willing to impart your opinions publikely so as they might be fastned on that these are your opinions so that considering how ready you have been in pulpits and with the people whom you might probably gaine to vent your opinions speaking where you should have been silent and being silent when you have been desired by the Ministers who understand controversies as well as your selves and never answering any books written against your way nor laying down neither in writing nor by printing what you held with your grounds in a Scholasticall way did give me and many others cause to interpret that kind of silence and reservednesse to spring either from your being ashamed of your opinions or from being able to say little for them And if you answer not this Antapologie I shall be like enough to interpret your silence that either you are ashamed of some of your opinions or able to say little for them For the fourth provocation Whenas on the other side besides all other advantages books have been written by men of much worth learning and authority with moderation and strength to prepossesse the peoples minds against what are supposed our Tenets I answer 1. You should have done well to have named what all other advantages our side had of you which might have provoked you to preach print and act for your selves and way You confesse in the last Section page 24. You had manifold advantages to make and increase a party but I know not what advantages were on our side or if we had that they were taken by us against you wherby you have any just ground to set out your patience in not being provoked 2. You should have done well to have answered the books written by men of much worth learning and authority with moderation and strength though you answered not mine and no man would have blamed you for that but all men expected it and blame you rather for declining all those wayes of disputes and of stating the points in difference between you and the Ministers and dealing in popular wayes and under-board with the people who were ready to take any impression and to be cast into any mould that had but the appearance of a stricter way 3. If the bookes written by men of much worth learning and authority with moderation and strength were but against your supposed Tenets as you say and not your Tenets indeed you not being named nor personated in them this was no such provocation to you to publish your opinions by preaching printing and to act for your selves or way A cleare conscience might have sleighted them and ingenuous men might in a few leaves have clearely disclaimed all those points as not holding them and there had been an end of all controversie 4. I cannot let passe under this fourth provocation that expression of yours against what are supposed our Tenets a usuall artifice of you and yourfollowers that when any thing is written strongly against your way which you know not how nor never meane to awswer you put it off with this The question is mistaken we hold not so we hold otherwise the answer you have given to all our books written by men of much worth c. the way the Arminians used to put off the learned answers made to their books and the Tractates written by our Divines against their opinions a very Jesuiticall device and most unworthy of men professing conscience and piety in which expression of Jesuiticall I intreat the Reader not to mistake me as if I cal'd the Apologists so or would ranke them in the forme of Jesuits no I intend not that at all but meerely to shew this way is not faire as being the practise of Arminians and Jesuits and so becomes not good men as I judge the Apologists are But let the Reader judge can it be thought that all the bookes written since this Parliament by men of much worth learning and authority with moderation and strength should be against you upon supposed Tenets that they should all fight with their own shadowes and set up a man of cloutes and beate him with strength to suppose you to hold such Tenets which you doe not what an imputation is this upon all who have written on these points how does this imply a contradiction in the words and expressions used by your selves that they should be men of much worth learning c. and yet write against what are supposed your Tenets this argued not much worth nor strength in them and suffer me here to vindicate those worthy men who have written of late against Independency and for combined Presbytery and Synods that they write not against what are supposed your Tenets but what are your Tenets really Can it be thought that the learned Divines of Holland as Mr Paget who being exercised with Mr Davenport Mr Hooker and others of your way upon the points in many Conferences and afterwards writ a book on purpose upon those points should write against supposed Tenets and that the most learned Voetius living
of the piety wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one c. which testimony given by you to this Assembly and that Character given by you of the people and the Professours of this Kingdome in page 24. and 28. are worthy to be observed and are of great use in these times when the Assembly and their proceedings are so much traduced and spoken against by your followers and Churches and let me make this use of it to the people and sadly put this question to their Consciences Whether is more probable that an Assembly so judicious of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the pietie wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one going in Gods way as you say page 28. making it their worke and businesse to find out the Government and the truth about the order of the Church visible and giving freedome of debates to men of different mindes and apprehensions seeking God publiquely and privately daily with so many prayers put up for them in all Churches at home and abroad beyond the Seas should find out the truth or Mr Lockyer Mr Batchelor Mr Carter with a company of weake ignorant men and women youths and maids apt to be seduced and ready to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way As to those words We would much rather have chosen to have been venting them to the multitude apt to be seduced I answer so you did much rather chuse to vent your opinions and principles both in publique and private to the multitude apt to be seduced according to the opportunities you had these three yeares then to communicate them to your godly brethren of the Ministerie as I have before fully shewed For this passage of yours But in a conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and reforming the Churches of Christ wee have adventured our selves upon this way of God wisely assumed by the prudence of the State whether this be so or no that you have had a conscientious regard to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truth and reforming the Churches of Christ let my last answer and what is before proved witnesse and if out of a conscientious regard to the orderly c. you adventured to be members of the Assembly and upon this way by an Assembly of searching out truths why did you not before the Assembly forbeare the disorderly and unpeaceable way of venting your selves to the multitude and of gathering Churches c. as also since the Assembly the disorderly and unpeaceable way of searching out truths in writing this Apologie in preaching some Sermons with some other practises which were no orderly nor peaceable wayes of searching out truths especially the Assembly sitting But them beleeve you that will I judge and that upon grounds and hints already given that other things made you adventure to be of the Assembly and to come thither constantly rather then the conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and I cannot let passe without some animadversions the phrase used by you here of your being members of the Assembly We have adventured our selves a very significant and true expression for I beleeve you accounted this Assembly a great Adventure for your Church-way and such a bottome as you would not have put it in at least not so soon if all the wayes you could have devised under heaven would have hindred it but it happened to you according to the Proverbe Nothing venture nothing have for supposing there must be an Assembly you might perhaps by being members of it doe your selves and way some good but by declining and refusing it you had been certainly lost But brethren what is the reason that in this Section wherein you give so full a testimonie to the Assembly and of your great adventuring to be members of it that you annex in the close these words following And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages both of number abilities of learning Authoritie the streame of publique interest trusting God both with our selves and his own truth c. Whether does not this somewhat reflect upon the Assembly as if there were a great hazard that things would be carried there by number abilities of learning Authority the streame of publique interest rather then by truth for if points were not likely to be carried so by plurality of Votes c. but by the clearest proofes from Scripture then these were no disadvantages to you but all the advantage would lie on that side whether many or few whether greater Scholars or lesse that could bring the strongest Scripture grounds and I must tell you that in such an Assembly as you confesse this is and is well known to be both for the persons and ends of its calling that great liberty of speech and debate with that solemne Protestation taken by every member at first sitting there a man need not account those things specified by you for any disadvantages for any two or three men nay one of a different judgement in Doctrine or discipline from that Assembly having truth on his side and but so much learning as to manage and make out his evidences though a man of no authority might easily cause the consciences of most there to owne and fall downe before that truth and to change their mindes yea and to blesse God for the light and imbrace the person or persons that brought it much lesse need you whose number is sufficient about ten besides some who are halfe Independents having parts and abilities enough and Authority to manage your arguments and even to command free and long audience complaine of these things for disadvantages but I am jealous this passage is here inserted and brought in to possesse the peoples minds fearing by this time this Apologie was set out things might not goe on your side and to give them something to confirme them in your way to teach them what to say namely though you had the truth and brought such strong arguments as were not answered yet you could not be heard but matters were carried against you by pieces the greater number of the Assembly by far being of another judgement as also by the streame of publike interest Authority c. And many of the people of the Church way speake thus already that the Assembly cannot answer your arguments but beare you downe with numbers the Parliament should have done well to have chosen as many of your way as on the other side and then there would have been a faire and even triall but I will examine all your disadvantages apart and give you and the Reader a particular account of them First For Number though you have not so many of your judgement in the Assembly yet you have a competent number to plead your cause and to be the mouth for all of your way to speake
unlesse they be Church members with many more all slat against the Primitive patterns hath ever been from first to last a fountaine of evill and a root of bitternesse of many bitter divisions and separations amongst themselves of manifold errors and other mischiefes in those Churches and places where they lived God having alwayes witnesses against it and never blessing it with peace and truth I shall not need to relate the histories of the Anaptists the highest forme of Independencie and the Church way what evils they fell into and the mischiefes they brought upon Germanie and how God cursed and scattered them As for the Brownists the middle forme of Independencie the Apologists themselves confesse they had fatall miscarriages and shipwracks And I could tell a sad storie but that it would be now too long even from Bolton and Browne the first and prime leaders down to the present Brownists at Amsterdam of the Apostasies Heresies Separations and bitter divisions with the untimely fearefull ends which have fallen out amongst them but in respect my booke so much exceeds the proportion intended I shall reserve that for a more distinct handling And for the semi-Brownists and Independents so cal'd by way of distinction they have not been free The Churches of the Apologists have had their bitter divisions and fearefull miscarriages as the Reader may remember in these pages of this present Answer pag. 35 36 37 142 143 144. with some erroneous conceits fallen into and preached in one of their Churches So in the Churches of New-England there have been so many errors differences and evils that I beleeve had we but a true impartiall storie of New-England for the first seven or eight yeares after they were come to any number we should have the strangest storie next that of the Anabaptists and old Brownists one of them in the world in a word they were brought by their Independencie and Church principles next dore to ruine both spirituall and temporall the sad experience of which hath made them wheele about of later yeeres towards Presbyteriall government and in stead of that not being yet formally come to it to take aliquid analogum in the first constituting of Churches making Ministers c. which at first they did not and to give more power to Classes and Synods then they did many yeares agoe as by comparing some Letters from thence in those times written by Ministers over into England and Mr Cottons late booke will be evident In a word he that will observe it shall find the end of Independencie infinite schismes separations errors inconstancie and uncertainty in judgement yea barbarisme and confusion and the Toleration of it by this State would be the opening of a sloud-gate to many other errors and evills besides what evill is in that being a way all along wherein it â—…iffers from the reformed Churches either beside or against the word of God And should the Parliament which God forbid and I hope is farre from their thoughts give the Independents a Toleration of their way and Churches they should give they know noâ—… what having never yet spoken out all that they hold this Apologie containing but a little part of their way besides taking in their second great principle page 10. Apolog of not making their present judgement and practise a binding law for the future the Parliament may grant grosse Brownisme Anabaptisme within a short time many falling off according their principles of new light to cast off communion with their own Churches as some of Mr Sympsons have done and let it be but remembred what I now write whether some of the Apologists if they come not in and joyne with the reformed Churches doe not within a few yeeres goe a great way further I think had they staid together in Holland till this time without any hopes of a Toleration here some of them had gone farre by this time of day Anointing with oyle was begun to be brought in Hymnes had been moved for in one of their Churches and if I may beleeve the report of a religious Person in an open company affirming it againe and againe when I doubted it that a member of the Church of Aâ—…nheim who was also named to me related that had they staid there a little longer the ordinance of Hymnes had been practised amongst them one being chosen and agreed upon by the Church to exercise that ordinance And I am able to demonstrate it that the Apologists keeping but to their principles besides the principle of a Reserve must yet goe a great way further and supposing the Parliament should make a proposition to them Wee will grant you this and this and so which be the present principlâ—…s you hold forth but if you bring in any thing more or goe farther then your Churches shall be dessolved and we will recall what we granted you because we will be sure to know what we allow in matters of Religion be at a certaintie for that I doe not thinke the Apologists would accept of a Toleration upon those tearmes and such a condition The beginnings of errors commonly are most modest but let alone some time they exceed all bounds how farre most of the Arminians proceeded beyond what Arminius held or themselves at first the learned books of many Divines and experience showes and if a Toleration were granted to the Apologists and all those of their communion to exercise their consciences I feare before a yeere went about many would turne Anabaptists c. but I desire rather to pray against a toleration then to prophecie of the evill of it But supposing the best that can be that the State had an Assurance the Apologists and their Churches would not goe one step further then now they hold the Toleration should not be made use of to any further errors yet the Parliament should not allow it unlesse they would grant a Toleratiod of Brownisme and if Brownisme be a bitter error and way then the way of the Apologists is not very sweet their way being but Browns younger brother agreeing with the Brownists in the nature and definition of the visible Church in the Independent power of a particular Congregation in the way of making Officers in the way of their ordinancâ—…s as Prophesying in the way of Forms of Prayer in the Sacraments none to be admitted but Church members cum multis alijs and I desire the Apologists to give any materiall difference however their grounds are different and they doe not goe so farre in consequences nor are not so grosse between their Churches and the Brownists As for that of the power of the people and the Officers in giving the power to the Officers but the Brownists to the people I answer however the Apologists differ in that point from the Brownists in words phrases methods and give us many fine words and flattering similitudes going about yet the truth is they differ not in substance in their practise but all comes to one end and