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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00797	True relations of sundry conferences had between certaine Protestant doctours and a Iesuite called M. Fisher (then prisoner in London for the Catholique fayth:) togeather with defences of the same. In which is shewed, that there hath alwayes beene, since Christ, a visible church, and in it a visible succession of doctours & pastours, teaching the vnchanged doctrine of fayth, left by Christ and his apostles, in all points necessary to saluation and that not Protestants, but only Roman Catholiques haue had, and can shew such a visible church, and in it such a succesion of pastours and doctours, of whome men may securely learne what pointe of fayth are necessary to saluation. / By A.C.	A. C.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1626 (1626)	STC 10916.5; ESTC S118355	64,677	92

points To take c. 109 29 but say and say 117 32 it seemeth It seemeth 118 1 notable not able 119 9 hunreds hundreds 131 29 found in sound in 140 27 be nameth he nameth 146 3 Fayh Fayth 147 19 Traditions The Traditions the 151 19 defined defined 153 13 had dele parenthesim 163 31 vncharitable vncharitably THE OCCASION OF A Certaine Conference had betvveene D. Francis White and M. Iohn Fisher. THE Occasion of this Conference was a certaine writtē Paper giuen by M Fisher to an honble Lady who desired somthing to be briefly writtē to proue the Catholique Roman Church Faith to be the only right The Copie of this Paper is as followeth FIRST It is certaine that there is one and but one true diuine infallible Faith without which none can please God or attayne Saluation 2. This one true diuine infallible Faith is wholy grounded vpon the authority of Gods word and in this it differeth not only from all humane sciences bred by a cleere sight or euident demonstration and from humane opinion proceeding from probable arguments or coniectures from humane Faith built vpon the authority of Pithagoras his Ipse dixit or the word of any other man but also from all other diuine knowledge had either by cleere vision of the diuine Essence which Saints haue in heauen or by cleere reuelation of diuine Mysteries which some principall persons to wit Patriarkes and Prophers and Apostles had on earth and also from that Theologicall discursiue knowledge which learned men attaine vnto by the vse of their naturall wit in deducing Conclusions partly out of the foundations of supernaturall Faith partly out of principles of naturall reason From all these kindes of knowledge I say that one true diuine and infallible Faith differeth in that it is grounded wholly vpon the authority of the VVord of God as humane fallible Faith is grounded vpon the authority of the VVord of Man 3. This VVord of God vpon which diuine infallible faith is grounded is not only the word of God Increate or the prime Verity but also the word Created or Reuelation proceeding from that prime Verity by which the truth of Christian mysteries by Christ who is true God was first made manifest to the Apostles and other his Disciples partly by the exteriour preaching of his owne mouth but chiefly by the inward reuelation of his eternall heauenly Father and by the inspiration of the holy Ghost Secōdly It was made knowne to others liuing in those dayes partly by owtward preaching partly by the writinges of the aforesaid Apostles and Disciples to whome Christ gaue lawfull mission commission to teach saying Teach all nations promising that himselfe would be with them all dayes vnto the end of the world and that his holy Spirit should assist them and teach them and consequently make them able to teach others all Truth in such sort as whosoeuer should heare them should heare Christ himself and so should be made docibles Dei and as the Prophet foretould docti à Domino and as S. Paul speaketh of some Epistola Christi the epistle of Christ written not with inke but with the spirit of God Whence appeareth that not only the Word Increate but also the Word Created may be truly sayd to be the Foundation of our Faith and not only that Word which was immediatly inspired by the heauenly Father or by the holy Ghost in the hartes of the Apostles and other Disciples who liued in our Sauiours dayes but also the Word as well preached as written by the Apostles and also that Word which by the preaching and writing of the Apostles was by the holy Ghost imprinted in the hartes of the immediate hearers who were therupon said to be the Epistles of Christ as I haue already noted 4. This Word of God which I call Created to distinguish it from the word Increate being partly preached partly written partly inspired or imprinted in manner aforesaid was not to cease at the death of the Apostles and Disciples and their immediate hearers but by the appointment of God who would haue all men to be saued and come to the knowledge of the Truth was to be deriued to posterity not by new immediate reuelations or Enthusiasmes nor by sending Angells to all particuler men but by a continuated succession of Visible Doctours and Pastors and lawfully-sent Preachers in all ages who partly by Transcripts of what was written first by the Apostles but cheifly by Vocall preaching of the same doctrine without change which the Pastors of euery age successiuely one from another receaued of their predecessors as they who liued in the age next to the Apostles dayes receaued it from the Apostles as a sacred Depositum to be kept and preserued in the Church maugre all the assaultes of Helly gates which according to Christs promise shall neuer preua-le against the Church Whence followeth that not only for 400. or 500. or 600. yeares but in al ages since Christ there was is and shal be the true Word of God preached by visible Doctours Pastors and lawfully sent Preachers so guided by Christ and his holy spirit that by them people of euery Age were are and shal be sufficiently instructed in true diuine infallible Faith in all thinges necessary to Saluation to the intent that they may not be little ones wauering nor carried about with euery winde of new doctrine which being contrary to the ould and first receaued must needs be false 5. Wheras by this which is already said which if need be may be morefully proued it apeareth first that there is one true diuine infallible Faith necessary to saluation Secōdly that this Faith is wholy grounded vpon the word of God Thirdly that this word of God is not only the word Increate but also the word Created either inwardly inspired or outwardly preached or written continued without change in one or other continued succession of Visible Pastors Doctours and lawfully-sent Preachers rightly teaching by the direction of Christ and his holy spirit the said word of God wheras I say all this doth most euidently appeare by this which is already sayd That I may proue the Romā Church only and those who consent and agree in doctrine of Faith with it to haue that one true diuine infallible Faith which is necessarie to saluation Thus I dispute If it be needfull that there should be one or other continuall succession of Visible Pastors in which and by which the vnchanged word of God vpon which true diuine infallible Faith is grounded is preserued and preached and no other succession besides that of the Roman Church and others which agree in Faith with it can be shewed as if any such were may be shewed out of approued Histories or other ancient monuments Then without doubt the Roman Church only and such as agree with it in Faith haue that true diuine infallible Faith which is necessary to saluation But there must be

not reforme it was lawfull for particuler churches to reforme themselues I asked Quo Iudice did this appeare to be so Which question I asked as not thinking it equity that Protestants in their owne Cause should be Accuers Witnesses and Iudges of the Romane Church I also asked Who ought to iudge in this case The B. sayd A Generall Councell I told him that a Generall Councell to wit of Trent had already iudged not the Roman Church but the Protestant to hold Errour That said the B. was not a lawfull Councell So sayd I would the Arrians say of the Coūcell of Nice The B would not admit the case to be like pretending that the Pope made Bishops of purpose for his side but this the B. proued not In fine The B. wished that a lawfull Generall Councell were called to end Controuersies The persons present said The King was enclined therunto and therefore we Catholiques might do well to concurre I asked the B. whether he thought a Generall Councell might erre He said it might If a Generall Councell may erre what neerer are we then sayd I to Vnity after a Councell hath determined yes said he although it may erre yet we shall be bound to hold it till another come to reuerse it After this we all rising The La. asked the B. whether she might be saued in the Roman Fayth he answered Shee might I bad her mark that She sayd the B. may be better saued in it then you D. White said I hath secured me that none of our errours are damnable so long as we hold them not against our Cōscience and I hold none against my Cōscience The Lady asked Whether she might be saued in the Protestant Fayth Vpon my soule said the B. you may Vpon my my Soule sayd I There is but one sauing Fayth and that is the Roman Vpon this and the precedent Conference the Lady rested fully satisfied in her Iudgment as she tould a friend of the truth of the Roman Churches Fayth Yet vpon frailty feare to offend the King she yielded to goe to Church for which she was after very sorie as some of her friends can testifie I beseech sweet Iesus to giue grace to euery one that offendeth in this sort to see repent and get pardon of their faults past and light of true Fayth in tyme to come for obtayning whereof they had need to pray to God for it and with a great desire to seeke after it and with humility to submit their will and Iudgment to those whom God hath appointed to teach it To wit such Doctours and Pastours as by a visible continuall succession haue without change brought it from christ and his Apostles euen vntill these our dayes and shall by a like succession carry it along euen vntill the end of world The which succession not being found in any other church differing in doctrine from the Romā Church I wish the Chaplain his Lord and euery other man carefully to consider whether it be not more Christian and lesse brainsick to thinke that the Pope being S. Peters successour with a Generall Councell should be Iudg of Controuersies that the Pastorall Iudgment of him vpon whom as vpon a firme rock Christ did build his Church and for whose Fayth Christ prayed enioyning him to confirme his brethren and to whose care and gouernent Christ committed his whole flock of lambes and sheep should be accounted Infallible rather then to make euery man that can read Scripture Interpreter of Scriptures Decider of Controuersies Controller of Generall Councels and Iudge of his Iudges Or to haue no Iudge of Controuersies of Fayth to permit euery man to belieue as he list as if there were no Infallible certainty of Fayth to be expected on earth The which were to induce insteed of One sauing Fayth a Babylonicall Confusion of so many Fayths as phantasies or no true christian Fayth at all From which euills sweet IESVS deliuer vs. Amen FINIS 2. Pet. 1. Ibid. Ibid. L. K. Ephes. 4. Heb. 11. Matth. 28. Ioan. 16. Luc. 10. 1. Tim. 2. Ephes. 4. Ioan. 14. 16. Rogers in his doctrine of the Church of England Art 3. Matth. 21. Aug. de verb. apost Ser. 14. Caluin l. Ep. epist. 141. Bern. serm 5. de resurrect Matt. 1● Act. 5. 41. a To wit absolutly to rely vpō their priuate iudgment so as to aduenture Saluation vpō it alone or chiefly b The Chaplaine noting the word Infallible to be sometimes put in somtimes left out taxeth M. Fisher of speaking distractedly But I note herein that M. Fisher spake most aduisedly and with precise care of pūctuall Truth for when he speaketh of what was obserued or desired by the La. he putteth in the word Infallible because he knew it was an infallible Church which she sought to rely vpon But when he speaketh of what D. Whyte or L. K. graunted he leaueth it out because they did not mention the word Infallible but onely granted a visible Church in all ages teaching vnchanged doctrine in all matters necessary to Saluation c The Chaplaine taxeth the Iesuite as if in this parcell he did insult and saith it was the B. his modesty to vse this excuse and to say there were a hundred schollars better then he But I do not see any Insultation but a simple true narration of what was sayd Neyther do I see lesse modesty in the Iesuits preferring a thousand before himself then in the B. his preferring a hundred before himself d The Chaplaine telleth that the Iesuite sayd that what the B. would not acknowledge in this he would wring extort from him But these words of wringing extorting the Iesuite neuer vseth euē to his meanest Aduersaries therfore not likely to haue vsed thē to the B. but at most that he would euince by argument or such like e The Chaplaine faith the B. was not so peremptory his speach was that diuers learned men some of your owne are of opinion as the Greeks expressed themselues it was a question not simply fundamentall But the Iesuite cannot remēber the B. to haue said these words yet if he did the Iesuite did not much misse of the chiefe point of the B. his meaning which was by the distinction of Faith fundamentall and not fundamentall to defend the error of the Graecians not to be such although held against the knowen definitiue sentence of the Church as doth hinder saluation or exclude them from being members of the true Church About which see more hereafter f The Chaplains corrupt Copie hath righting inst●ed of reading the sentence of S. Austen The whole sentence is set downe by the Chaplaine thus This is a thing founded An erring Disputer is to be borne with all in other questions not diligently digested not yet made firme by full auauthority of the Church there errour is to be borne with But it ought

nobis tenetur veritas cùm id facimus quòd vniuersae placet Ecclesiae quam earundem scripturerum commend at authoritas We hold the verity of Scriptures when we do that which pleaseth the whole Church which the authority of the same scriptures doth commend But what answere the chaplaine can make I cannot easily guesse vnles with vs he acknowledg authority of church-tradition to be necessary in this case p The Iesuite did not aske this question as doubting of the diuine authority of Scripture but to make it seene that beside scripture which the B. sayd was the Onely foundation of Faith there must be admitted some other foundation to wit Vnwritten Tradition and this of infallible authority to assure vs infallibly that these Bookes are diuine which to be diuine is one point infallibly belieued by diuine Faith and yet cannot be infallibly proued out of Onely Scripture therefore Onely Scripture cannot be sayd as the B. said to be the Onely foundation of Fayth or of euery point belieued by Faith I hope the Chaplaine who is so carefull to auoyd all suspition of being familiar with impiety as he would haue no question moued about this point vpon any termes or pretence will not be so impious as to say That to belieue these bookes to be diuine scripture is not a point of diuine Faith or that this point being so important as it is to be most firmely belieued is belieued by diuine Faith without any ground or foundation or without a sufficiēt infallible diuine foundatiō of Gods word written or vnwritten Sith therfore this is a point of Faith hath a foundation yea an infallible foundation it is not against either art or equity or piety for confutation of Error and confirmation of Truth to enquire what particuler foundation of Gods word written or vnwritten doth assure vs infallibly that these particuler bookes containe the sole and whole truth of God belieued by christian Fayth Neyther need any be troubled or endangered by this question but such as not finding any sufficient foundation in gods word written do pertinaciously resolue not to belieue any thing to be Gods word which is not written Those that belieue that there is a word of God partly written and partly vnwritten according to that of S. Paul 2. Thess. 2. Hold the Traditions whether by our word or Epistle do easily without too much turning in a wheele or circle answere the question See the Reply to M. Wotton M. White in the Introduction of which mention is made in the Relation where this and diuers other important matters pertayning to the drift of this Conference are handled at large q The Chaplaine saith that some body tould him that the B. vntied the knot But why doth not the Chaplaine tell how he did vntie the knot It seemeth the knot was not well vntied when the Iesuite had a Reply so ready as is insinuated by his only going againe and reading in the Book which he had so rudely writen Although a Praecognitum in faith need not be so cleerly knowne as a praecognitum in science yet there must be this proportion that as primum praecognitum the first thing foreknowne in a science must be primò cognitum first knowne must not need another thing pertayning to that science to be priùs cognitum knowne before it So if in Faith the Scriptures be the first and only foundation and consequently the first thing knowne primùm praecognitum it must be in Faith primò cognitum first knowne and must not need any other thing pertayning to Faith to be priùs cognitum knowne before it so Church-Tradition which is one thing pertayning to Fayth could not as the Chaplain saith it is and as indeed it is be knowne first and be an Introduction to the knowledge of Scripture Moreouer like as sciences which suppose a principle proued in a higher science cannot haue certainty of that principle but either by hauing seene that principle euidently proued by other principles borrowed of that higher science or by giuing credit to some that haue seene or haue by succession receiued it from others that haue seene it euidently so proued So Faith cannot haue certainty of her first principles but either by seeing proof from the knowledg of the Blessed which ordinarily no mā now seeth or by giuing credit immediatly to some who haue seene as to Christ who cleerly saw or to the Apostles to whom cleere reuelation I say cleere in attestante was made or by giuing credit to others who by succession haue had it from the first seers In which last case the certainty of these principles can be no greater then is the authority of that succession If it be meerely humane and fallible the science and Faith is humane and fallible Neither can either science or Faith be diuine and infallible vnlesse the authority of that succession be at least in some sort diuine and infallible The chaplain therefore who as it seemeth will not admit church-Tradition to be in any sort diuine and infallible while it doth introduce the beliefe of scriptures to be diuine bookes cannot sufficiently defend the Faith introduced of that point to be infallible vnles he admit an infallible impulsion of the priuate spirit ex parte subiecti without any infallible sufficiently applied reason ex parte obiecti which he seemeth not not hath reason to doe 〈◊〉 this were to open the gap to Enthusiasms of all vpstart Anabaptists and would take away due proportion of Obiect and Subiect and the sweet order of things which diuine prouidence hath appointed It may be that if he would but consider the Tradition of the Church not only as of a Company of fallible men in with sort the authority of it is but humaine and fallible but also as it is the Tradition of a Company which by it owne light sheweth it self to be assisted by Christ and his holy Spirit farre more cleerely then Scripture by it owne light doth shew it selfe to be the infallible word of God he would find no difficulty in that respect to account the authority of Church-Tradition to be infallible and consequently not only able to be an Introduction but also an infallible motiue reason or at least condition ex Parte obiecti to make both it self and the bookes of Scripture appeare infallibly though obscurely to our soule disposed and illuminated by Gods spirit to haue in them diuine and infallible authority and to be worthy of diuine and infallible credit sufficient to breed in vs diuine and infallible Fayth Neither do I see why the Chaplain may not consider the Tradition of the present Church these two waies as well as the present scriptures printed and approued by men of this age For if the scriptures printed and approued by men of this age must be considered not onely as printed or approued by men in regard the credit giuen to them thus considered can be no more then humane but also as printed and by

which is not contayned in the written Word and therefore they must admit for a ground of Faith some Word of God not written D. Whyte answered Although at that time when S. Paul wrote the text alledged some part of Gods word was not written yet afterwards all needfull to be belieued was written This D. Whyte said but did not not cannot proue especially out of any parte of the written Word D. Woyte alledged this text Omnis scriptura diuinit 〈…〉 inspirata vtilis est c But as M. Fisher then tould him this Text doth not proue the point which is to be proued For this text doth not say that all which is diuinely inspired was written or that Genesis Exodus and other particuler books are diuinely inspired or that nothing is to be belieued which is not contayned in scripture but only saith That all or euery Scripture diuinely inspired is profitable D. Whyte said Scripture is not onely said simply to be profitable but to be profitable to argue to teach to correct to instruct that the man of God may be perfect and therfore being profitable to all these offices it may be said to be sufficient M. Fisher replyed Although wood be profitable to make the substance of the house to make wainscot to make tables and stooles and other furniture yet hence doth not follow that wood alone is sufficient to build and furnish a house I will notsay that heere D. White was at a Nonplus because I vnderstand that word Nonplus doth not please him but the truth is that to this D. Whyte did make no answere And for my part I professe I do not see what answere he could haue made to the purpose and worthy of that Honorable and vnderstanding Audience D. Whyte therefore without saying any thing to this instance seemed to be weary and giving the paper to M. Fisher had him read on M. Fisher taking the paper read the fourth Point in which was sayd That at the word of God manifested to the Apostles and by them to their immediate hearers was not to cease at their death but was to be continued and propagated without change in and by one or other companie of visible Pastours Doctours and lawfully-sent preachers successiuely in all ages c. All which to be true being at last graunted or not denyed by D. Whyte M. Fisher proposed the first of the two arguments set downe in the aforesaid Paper viz. If there must be in all ages one or other continuall succession of visible Pastours Doctours and lawfully-sent Preachers by whom the vnchanged word of God vpon which Faith is grounded was preserued c preached in all ages since Christ and no other is visible or can be shewed besides those of the Roman Church and such as agree in Faith with them Then none but the Pastours of the Romane Church and such as agree in Faith with them haue that one infallible diuine vnchanged Faith which is necessarie to saluation But there must be such a visible succession none such can be shewed different in Faith from the Pastours of the Roman Church Ergo. Onely the Pastours of the Romane Church and such as agree in Faith with them preserue and teach that one infallible diuine vnchaunged Faith which is necessarie to saluation D. Whyte answered That it was sufficient to shew a succession of visible Pastours teaching vnchanged doctrine in all points fundamentall although not in points not fundamentall M. Fisher replyed saying First that if time permitted he could proue all pointes of diuine Faith to be fundamentall supposing they were points generally held or defined by full authority of the Church to which purpose he did recite the beginning of this sentence of S. Augustine Ferendus est disputator errans in alijs quaestionibus non diligenter digestis nondum plena authoritate Ecclesia firmatis ibi ferendus est error non tantùm progredi debet vt ipsum fundamentum quatere moliatur In which S. Auston insinuateth that to erre in any questions defined by full authority of the Church is to shake the foundation of Faith or to erre in points fundamentall But M. Fisher not hauing the booke at hand and fearing to be tedious in arguing vpon a text which he had not ready to shew passed on and secondly required D. Whyte to giue him a Catalogue of all points fundamentall or a definition or description well proued out of Scripture and in which all Protestants will agree by which one may discerne which be and which be not points fundamentall D. Whyte reiected this demaund as thinking it vnreasonable to require of him a Catalogue or definition or description of Points fundamentall out of Scripture in which all Protestants will agree But considering in what sense D. Whyte did understand this distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamentall to wit that none could be saued who did not belieue all pointes fundamentall rightly and that none should be damned for not belieuing other pointes vnles he did wilfully against his conscience deny or not belieue them M. Fishers demand was both reasonable and most necessary for sith all Protestants agree in houlding it necessarie to be certaine of their saluation and that none can be saued who do not belieue all points fundamentall and that in these pointes one must not content himselfe with implicite Faith but must expressely know them it is most necessary that all Protestants should out of Scripture which they pretend to be their onely Rule of Faith find and conclude with vnanimous consent certainly what is and what is not a fundamentall point of Faith necessary to saluation For whiles some hould more some lesse to be fundamentall and none of them giueth out of Scripture a sufficient rule by which it may be discerned which is and which is not fundamentall how can ech particuler Protestant rest assured that he belieueth expresly all points fundamentall or so much as is necessary and sufficient to make him assured of saluation But to returne to the Relation D. Whyte hauing reiected M. Fishers demand requiring a Catalogue definition or description out of Scripture in which all Protestants will agree said That all those points were fundamentall which were contained in the Creed of the Apostles M. Fisher might haue asked him diuers questions vpon this answere 1. What text of scripture taught him that all the points contained in the Apostles Creed were fundamentall in the sense aforesaid Or That this Creed was composed by the Apostles as a summary of Faith contayning points needfull at least necessitate Praecepti to be expresly belieued by all men The Church indeed so teacheth but the Scripture hath not any text which doth expressly say so or whence by necessarie consequence so much may be gathered and therefore according to Protestant principles permitting nothing to be belieued but Onely Scripture the Apostles Creed ought not to be beleiued as a rule of any point of Faith and much lesse a rule containing all