shuld make a long and vnprofitable aboad at Paris not hauing wherewithall to imploy theyr time Considering they were not there but by accident to wit that de Spina was come thither to passe further and make a voyage into Aniou and the other who was Minister of the Church of Orleance was lately come forth of prison where he had beene brought in the Moneth of Iune next precedent vpon a false accusation suborned against him by the enemies of Gods Church which charged him to be author of a pernicious and wicked booke written against the obedience due to Kings and Princes Therefore was it very hurtfull for him to soâ—ournâ— so long a time in a Citie whither hee came against his lyking For these causes they purposed to returne towards my Lord of Neuers to shew vnto him the things aforesaid and tell him that De Sainctes who might haue stayed and ioyned some other with him in the stead of Vigor was departed thence without making it knowne when his returne would be that it was not reason they should stay there being incertaine of that which they had to doo and considering that their Churches had need of them to execute therin their charges and that they desired the same Notwithstanding in the end they found it better to suffer an inconuenience and to abide there vntill my Lord of Neuers departed from Paris as in the end of the Moneth of August he should goe to his owne land called Coâ—lomiers For seeing the Doctors were then absent the Lord of Neuers being departed the Ministers could doo nothing not hauing whom to write vnto nor with whom to conferre These remonstances being liked by the said Lord hee gaue them leaue to depart by writing signed Lodouico de Gonzague and below Varin Secretarie Dated 26. of August wherein were declared the occasions here before touched and remoÌ„strance of the Ministers with promise made by the said Lord to cause the answeres which the Doctors would make to be brought vnto them And that by the meane of Monsieur de Buci S. George who was charged with this businesse Also the Ministers promised to be readie were it to returne to Paris or else to answere from the place where they should be as often as the Doctors should write These things thus done and passed the Ministers returned presently after supposing to haue some speedie newes from the Doctors But they haue attended and yet do attend without that there hath bene any appearance thereof And they vnderstood nothing of that matter sauing that many seuerall writings were afterwardes cryed and solde through the Citie of Paris In the tytles whereof some found meane to enterlace the word Conference to make shewe vnto the world that it was something touching the former disputations And such a subtiltie indeed was not without great profit to the Printers So great desire had men to know the truth of the thing For contentation of whom we haue thought meet to bring to light what was done concerning the same reseruing to another time to publish what the Doctors when they shall do it shall write against it and what the Ministers also will there vnto answere if they can recouer the same In the meane time shall each one be admonished to make profit of that which is here contained And to pray the Father of lights to shead more more the brightnesse of his spirit vpon his Church to the true vnderstanding of his holy word for the restauration and aduancement of the spirituall kingdome of Iesus Christ his sonne our Lord. So be it the 8. of Nouember 1566. FINIS A briefe Table of the titles of the Acts of the Disputation THe Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following The first day of the Disputation which was Tuesday the 9. of Iuly 1566. touching the assurance one ought to haue of the word of God and of the meane to knowe what is the word of God and to discerne betweene the bookes of the Bible to call the one Canonicall and the other Apocripha The second day being Wednesday the 10. of Iuly touching the same matter with the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the authoritie of the Church that the holy scripture is knowne to be the word of God And the resolution of the Ministers to the contrary That it is the spirite of God which sealeth and imprinteth the assurance thereof in the harts of the elect The third day being Thursday the 11. of Iuly containing the demaunds and answeres vpon the Creede of the Apostles and why it is so called The fourth day being Friday the 12. of Iuly comprehending the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the tradition of the Church that one is assured of the Creed of the Apostles And that of the Ministers tending to this that it is knowne by the conformitie which it hath with the holy scriptures The fift day being Mâ—nday the 15. of Iuly where is the beginning of the disputation of Gods Omnipotencie vnder the couert whereof the Doctors do ground foure points contained in the 63. Page On this Omnipotencie and the points aboue said the disputes following as well by word as by writing were continued The sixt day of the Dispute Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The Ministers answere to the obiections of the Doctors 〈◊〉 Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The reply or obiection of the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers touching the article of Gods omnipotencie on Satterday the 20. of Iuly The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. of Iuly about fiue of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The reply of the Doctors to the writing of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 25. day of Iuly about 8 of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The Resolution of the Doctors touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in respect of the foure questions proposed by them to the Ministers Which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament The articles proposed by the Doctors for the next and other conferences following according to the order of the said articles The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 28. of Iuly about seuen of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. A briefe resolution of all the answeres and discourses which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the conference which they haue had with the Doctors The answeres to the preface of the Doctors questions The answeres to the questions proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper A briefe reply of the Doctors against the last answere of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Niuernois the first of August at 7. of the clocke in the euening Anno.
Acts of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris in the Moneths of Iuly and August 1566. Betweene two Doctors of Sorbon and two Ministers of the Reformed Church A most excellent Tract wherein the learned may take pleasure and the ignorant reape knowledge Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne and diuided according to the daies Magna est veritas praeualet Ecclesiasticus 33. 16. Behold how I haue not laboured only for my selfe but for all them also that seeke knowledge LONDON Printed by Thomas Creede 1602. TO THE RIGHT Honorable Sir Thomas Egerton Knight Lord Keeper of the great Seale of England Chamberlaine of the Countie Palatine of Chester and of her Maiesties most Honorable priuie Counsaile I. G. wisheth all health honour and euerlasting happinesse RIght Honourable my good Lorde If affectionate dutie shall be held presumption or any taxe me of rashnesse for still troubling your Lordship with my rude labors I plead mine excuse with the Poet Affranius who blamed for guilt of like crime to Traian yet dared to present him with homely Poems excusing himselfe still with the curtesie of the Emperour which as Princely accepted as the other poorely offered And so shrowded with the shelter of your honorable curtesie I shall be shielded from the stormes of idle imputations stop as did Affranius the mouthes of my Taxors and aduenture once more to present vnto your Lordship my prison-night-watches as a simple token of my thankfulnesse and pledge of further dutie then deeming my selfe happie when I may acknowledge your honourable goodnesse with any performance of dutie or acceptable seruice to your Lordship to whom both my self and poore endeuours are wholy deuoted The worthy and necessary vse of this Treatise I leaue to the graue iudgment of learned Censors and in all dutie and zeale do offer it to your Lordships Patronage assure me of your like good as former acceptance For a good vine yeeldes grapes still answerable to it nature and an honourable mind the fruits of an honorable disposition Long liue and prosper ho. Lord Pater sis Patriae Ecclesiae Reipublicae charus So in all humilitie I take leaue Fleete this 25. of March 1602. Your Lordships most bounden in all dutifull affection Iohn Golburne The Translator to the Christian Reader AMongst all the meanes prescribed by wisedome to attaine the perfection of true knowledge there is none good Reader in my poore conceit more necessarie for the ignorant next to the fountaine of life the word of God then the reading of Controuersies wherein the truth is debated the reasons on both sides deduced and laid open to the view and Readers iudgement For as by striking together of the steele flint the fire is out forced euen so by disputation and conference the truth is boulted out and decyded But because it is hard for a blinde man to iudge of colours and we being all blinde by nature and ignorant of God and goodnesse are of our selues vncapable of right iudgement in matters of faith for flesh and bloud cannot attaine vnto it neither can the naturall man discerne the things of God we must therefore vse the appointed meanes of our saluation namely hearing reading and meditating of Gods sacred word which is onely able to make vs wise vnto saluation and to enlighten the eyes of the simple So that by this touchstone and faithfull inuocation of God in the name and sole mediation of Christ Iesus for the direction of his holy spirit wee shal be enabled to know all things and to trye the true and pure Gold from the false and counterfeit and then comparing the sayings and assertions of both sides with the sincere vndeceiueable milke of Gods word we shal be likewise able to discerne the spirit of God from the spirit of Error and discerning shall perceiue the incomparable beautie of the one and the vgly deformitie of the other Which thing waighing with my selfe and finding in this Treatise both the deepnesse of Sathan and the inuincible force of truth which is the power of God vnto saluation of all true beleeuers I resolued at the speciall instance of a religious friend who had begun the Translation to attempt effect and finish the same which by diuine assistance I haue faithfully performed and here present it to thy view Read it with consideration consider thereof with iudgement and iudge with discretion so shalt thou finde not onely pleasure but much profit in matters discussed of greatest moment For which and all things else giue God the glory make vse for thine instruction and accept my poore endeuour whose desire was to do thee good Farewell Thine in the Lord I. G. The Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following FOr that I doubt not but many persons filled with the commō brute of the conference should bee made at the house of my Lord the Duke de Montpensier betweene the Doctors of the one part and the Ministers of the other appointed for that purpose desire to know the truth and that others speake thereof diuersly according to the reports thereof made vnto them or their conceiued imaginations concerning the same Me seemeth that to satisfie the one and take from the other all occasion of lying or giuing credit to lies it should bee good to put briefly in writing all the matter as it passed and likewise to declare what was the motiue first occasion of the same My Lord the Duke of Montpensier who as each one knoweth is very zealous of his Religion and dearely loueth his children seeing that his daughter the Duchesse of Buillon was departed from the Komish Religion thenceforth to follow that of Iesus Christ and that without chilling shee still perseuered and more and more increased in the knowledge and feare of God in zeale godlinesse and all other good and commendable vertues his speech he had in the beginning with her and other meanes he had since assaied to reduce and call her backe from the way wherein shee was nought preuailing willed for a last remedie to attempt if he could to winne her by the meanes and remonstrance of a Doctor named Vigor whom he much esteemed And to the end that the said Lady should remaine more satisfied hauing called my Lord of Buillon her husband hee declared vnto him his minde and said hee was contented that the said remonstrance should bee made to his daughter in the presence of some Ministers as namely of Spina such others as she should please to choose to the ende that had they any thing to say against the doctrine of the saide Vigor they should alleadge it And if after they had conferred together they were not confuted by him and wholly vanquished that his daughter should then abide in her opinion without that hee or some others of his side would euer assay ought to diuert her My Lord de Buillon promised to accomplish his commaund therein and to shewe his obedience to him Shortly after hee imparted the
ea Thy truth ô Lord not mine nor of him or him but of all vs whom thou callest to communion terribly admonishing that wee haue not the truth priuate least wee be depriued thereof And touching the bookes of the old Testament which the Ministers will not receiue for Canonicall by the iudgement of their inward reuelation the Doctors doo shewe that before Saint Augustines time or at leastwise in his time in the Church vniuersall all the bookes which are contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued for Canonicall as witnesseth the Councell of Carthage where S. Augustine was And also the Councell of Laodicia Now thus say the Doctors the Fathers which were present in these Councels if by inward inspiration wee must iudge of bookes they had it or at least they might perswade themselues to haue it more assuredly then many others The Ministers say that they iudge by their inward reuelation that they be not Canonicall The Doctors leaue it to iudgement which men ought rather beleeue whether the inspiration of the auncient Fathers receiued by the Church for so many hundred yeares vntill now or else the priuate and particular inspiration of the new Ministers They adde further that they submit themselues to proue that the auncient Fathers yea neare the time of the Apostles as Ireneus S. Ciprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others doo vse the testimonies of the bookes reiected by the Ministers yea for proofe of the doctrine against the heretikes And Saint Augustine himselfe in the 2. booke of Christian doctrine Cap. 2. dooth put all those bookes by name among the bookes Canonicall And Damascen likewise in his fourth booke de Orthodoxa fide Cap. 18. To know then whether a man haue the spirit of God to discerne and iudge of the bookes of the scripture he must bee reduced to the common consent and agreement of the Church for this is the ordinarie meanes left by God to that effect and the experience may bee made is an argument sufficient to conuince that the faithfull by inward inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall bookes from the pretended Apocrypha Which might easily bee verified would the cause to come at this present some of the same pretended reformed Religion which haue not yet bene instructed in the diuision of the bookes vnto whom should one propose the bookes which the Ministers hold for Apocrypha they would in no wise distinguish them from other bookes of the holy Byble And vpon the whole they conclude that if one person hath the spirite of God c. vt supra Answere Touching the first Article the Ministers neuer said as may appeare by the reading of all the former answeres that their religion is founded on their particular reuelations but vpon the word of God as is proposed in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Of the truth whereof they haue said to be principally assured by the â—estimoniâ— and reuelation of the holy spirit They also say that faith is not the truth to speake properly but the perswasion of the truth which in the scripture â—s â—aught vs. Moreouer that this faith is not of our owne getting but a pure giâ—t of God adding that the Ministers to make them lawfullâ— ought to bee sent not from the pretended Pastors which haue not but the â—yâ—le and onely name of Pastors but ought to be sent from God a it appeareth in Ieremy where this marke is proposed to knowe and marke a false Pastor or Shepheard when hee thrusteth in himselfe or is sent of an other then of God Touching the article following they adde that the true marke whereby one may certainly iudge of the reuelation is rather the word of God then the consent of many for as much as it oft times happeneth that the multitude in the Church declining from the word doo altogether erre as in the time of Micheas the time of Iesus Christ and afterward also of Constance the Emperour Concerning the Prophets which doo follow theyâ— owne spirite as bee those which leaue the word of God and depend vppon the commaundements and traditions of men or on the vanitie of their owne sence there is no doubt but they are false Prophets and that such persons are to bee shunned and reiected But great difference must bee put betweene the reuelations and testimonies of the spirit of God and the vaine imaginations of the hearts of men Touching that which the Doctors haue set foorth that heretikes as Anabaptists and others doo vse for confirmation of their errors the texts of scripture alledged by the Ministers It may so bee for as much as the scripture beeing common may bee produced and alledged of eueâ—ie one And yet men must not stay vpon that which is alledged but weigh and examine how and to what end and purpose it is alledged and in so dooing men shall knowe the difference betweene the Ministers and heretikes And concerning that produced of Brentius and Bucer namely wherein they affirmed that by the onely tradition of the Church the Canonicall bookes may be discerned from the Apocrypha This it seemeth cannot well serue the Doctors seeing they maintaine all the bookes of the Bible to bee Canonicall and neuerthelesse by that they haue said of Brentius and Bucer it appeareth that the one and the other following the tradition as they say put a distinction therein calling the one Canonicall and the other Apocrypha Touching the Article following wherein the Doctors alledge certaine textes of the auntient Fathers to take away the difference betweene the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha The Ministers do answer that as they haue alledged some to proue the same so can they also for their part alledge some to that purpose as Saint Ierome in his Prologue called Galeatus and in an other which beginneth Frater Ambrosius vnto whom writing the summe of euery booke of the Bible hee mentioneth those onely which the Ministers call Canonicall They may alledge also two or three Catalogues recyted in Eusebius which they receiue not for Canonicall bookes but those which the Ministers themselues approue Moreouer the Councell of Laodicia which the Doctors haue alledged is for the Ministers for as much as it comprehendeth not the bookes in question And touching the experience they answere that it is a question of fact and that it may be alledged rather against the Doctors then the Ministers And finally that they loose not more time in often repeating of one selfe-same thing but hasten to conferre of the points of the confession which the Doctors will debate The Ministers do shewe that the 24. bookes of the old Testament which are in the Canon of the Hebrewes with all the bookes of the new Testament be on both sides approued Canonicall And they are wholly sufficient to decide all the points of their confession all that in generall which appertaineth to true religion And by meanes thereof they haue no cause at all to drawe backe from the Conference for the
this present writing Concerning that which the Ministers make question of in the last article of their answere that the Doctors doo call faith a humane worke seeing that it is of God they ought no more to wonder thereat then infinit other truthes which seemeth straunge to them because their doctrine is founded on the grounds of error among which one of the principall is That man hath not free will that man to thinke well will well and doo well worketh not together with God against many places of scripture which setteth downe man co-working with God and for his faith and workes hath of him reward and recompence The which without wandring from the purpose shall more aptly be handled in an other place The Doctors like well that the Ministers do confesse that the anciēt Fathers haue neuer said God could not cause one bodie to be in diuers places which thing is true But the reason which they yeeld why they haue not so sayd is of the Ministers owne forge and inuention It remaineth that they shewe vs so much by the testimony of the Scripture concerning the same For no more is it therein found then in the writings of the Fathers Whereof the said Ministers haue bene oft admonished who say they build all their doctrine vpon the word of God Had the Ministers in the beginning confessed the truth of the Omnipotencie or else had they said that they acknowledged that Iesus Christ could cause his body to be aboue and here belowe in the Sacrament really and truly if he so would than had it bene needlesse to handle these former questions which neuerthelesse are not of small consequence as the Ministers do esteeme them Which thing appeareth by the writings of the Fathers who haue diligently handled these places and strengthened themselues therewith against heretiques But because the Ministers would not agree that God can make one body to be at one selfe-same instant in diuers places And that if the Doctors had begunne to declare his will to haue bene such that he had ordained the body of Iesus Christ should be in Heauen and in the Sacrament The Ministers might haue sayd as they of theyr sect doo say that God hath not willed it because he could not The Doctors had rather first intreate of the Almightinesse then of the will And seeing the matter of the Omnipotencie hath bene sufficitntly tossed they are determined to prooue that Iesus Christ hath willed and ordained that his bodie should bee in diuers places In the probation of which thing when they haue vnderstood the Ministers opinion of that they holde in theyr Churches touching that matter they will enter into the former Conference to the ende that theyr trauell be not in vaine For that they follow not it seemeth to the Doctors that which Caluin and Beza holde concerning the same For which cause say the Doctors that the Ministers abuse the people fayning to teach that which in the reformed Church they haue wontedly done and yet their answere addressed to the Doctors sheweth the contrary In that the Ministers repute themselues happie to endure such reproaches to be esteemed seducers by the Doctors let them remember that all sects may say as much therof as they whether by right or wrong it wil appeare by examination of their doctrine The Doctors resolution touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in regard of foure questions by them propounded to the Ministers which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and blood of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament EVery man which can patiently cōsider by the scriptures beginning at Abraham the Father of the faithfull vnto the last writing of the Apostles shall finde that the well spring of all infidelitie hath ordinarily beene to haue regarde to the proprietie of creatures and common order of nature to contradict doubt of and distrust the word of God For which reason Tertullian and other former Christians sayd well that Phylosophers and they that stayed vpon things naturall were the Fathers of Hereticques because the contemplation of Nature engendered almost all heresies On the contrary side shall one perceiue the almightinesse of God to be proposed by the scriptures as a sharpe sword cutting in peeces all arguments which might come of naturall reasons for a certaine and finall resolution to beleeue whatsoeuer is couched borne by the said word of God albeit impossible incomprehensible to euery creature and faith to be staied on that same power in all doubts which might be offered or proposed All the difficultie which Abraham made vppon the promises of God to him did proceed of certaine impossibilities of nature which he sawe in himselfe and in his wife And it seemeth hee had alwayes regard therevnto vntill God vsed his authoritie and said vnto him I am God all sufficient Is any thing hard to the Lord After this rebuke and remonstrance of God Abraham did then forget all consideration of the proprieties of his nature and laid hold on this shield of faith which is to knowe and to bee fully perswaded that God is almightie to whom nothing is hard or impossible And after that when question was of killing his onely sonne albeit hee had great apparance of contradiction in nature and in the word of God which had beene giuen him to wit that of the seed of that sonne should hee proceed which should giue blessing to all Nations and notwithstanding hee must kill him before hee had any lynage of his bodie issued Neuerthelesse hee made not protestation opposing that contradiction of nature and of the word of GOD to maintaine that that which had beene said and promised vnto him was impossible but hee had recourse to the stay of faith and of the faithfull saieth Saint Paul to the Hebrewes that is to say to the omnipotencie esteeming that God had the meane to make true both the one and the other namely to cause his sonne to die and rise againe to drawe from him afterwards lynage and posteritie although as yet there had beene no example of the resurrection Likewise the consideration of creatures and the order of nature which Moses sawe before him made him fall into Infidelitie And God shewed him his fault in that he would deny him the power long time with flesh to nourish his people because the nature of the wildernes did not afford it and did admonish him to lift vp his spirit to the omnipotency against nature and there to assure his faith Moses said Sixe hundred thousand people there are among whom I am and thou saist I will giue them flesh that they may eate therof a month long Shall the sheepe and beeues be slaine to find them Either shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them to suffice them God answered Moses Is the hand of the Lord shortnea thou shalt now see whether my word shall come to passe or no. In like maner as often as one shall reade in the
same to my Lord the Admirall by whose aduice and other Lords which hee spake too De Spina was suddenly sent for who beeing come vnto them and hauing vnderstood all that aforesaid said that hee hoped for little fruite of all this Conference considering the qualitie and humour of the man with whom hee was to deale because hee is much more partiall for the Pope and his traditions then zealous for the word of God and truth of Iesus Christ Which thing those that were present did well approoue Neuerthelesse hee was purposed for two considerations to present himselfe at the said Conference the one to support and stablish my said Lady de Buillon against the Sophismes and cauillations of the said Vigor the other to take from him the occasion to boast as his custome is that the Ministers durst not appeare before him And then was the proceeding and order aduised of which they should hold in the said Conference And that the said De Spina should first require that it might be authorized by the Kings permission Afterwards that to auoyd all confusion it should bee made in the presence of a fewe persons Thirdly that there should bee some certaine theame and subiect proposed wherof they should conferre Fourthly that there should be two Moderators of the whole Action and two others deputed faithfully to collect all the reasons and arguments which should bee brought forth by the parties All which things hauing beene proposed to my Lord the Duke of Buillon as well by Monsieur the Admirall as by the said De Spina hee found them very reasonable and promised to giue the best order he could to all the businesse admonishing De Spina to be readie the first day of Iuly 1566. for after dinner hee should make the said Conference By meanes whereof the same De Spina to prepare himselfe went to finde out Monsieur Barbaste Minister to the Queene of Nauarre whom hee prayed to vouchsafe to accompany and second him in the said conference Which he graunting both two together with three other Gentlemen left by my said Lord de Buillon to conduct them went after dinner the day and yeare aboue said to the house of my Lord the Duke de Montpensier where when they were arriued the Duke de Buillon aduertised thereof by one of the said Gentlemen came vnto them in the Hall where they were And speaking to De Spina demaunded of him induced as is likely by the Doctors assembled in the chamber whence hee came if he were purposed and resolued to pray after the custome of the reformed Churches before they began the said conference He answered yea and that neither he nor his companion could not nor ought to attempt a thing of such importance as to handle the Mysteries of Christian Religion without first being prepared therevnto by the inuocation of Gods name That heard hee entred the chamber where the Doctors were assembled and hauing communicated to them the answere of the said Ministers they appointed Doctor Ruze to declare vnto them that they would not be present at their prayers and that no more reasonable it was that they should bee there then they at their Masse The Ministers answered that they could not with good conscience begin the conference before they had prayed vnto God and that it was in the Doctors choise pleasure to be present or absent at their praiers And they for their part would content themselues to pray in the place assembly wherin the conference should be made But neuerthelesse that their prayers which are as they themselues confesse conformable to the pure word of God and their Masse wherin are many things contrary therevnto as they may easily know and iudge that will trie and examine it by the rule of the scripture were not like things And so by meanes of the impietie and Idolatrie which is in their Masse they could not any way communicate thereat without offence to God and making themselues highly culpable before him but that he and the other Doctors his companions could not be letted by any such difficulties to be present at their prayers For as much as there was no article which by their owne confession 〈◊〉 not holy and according to God Herevpon replied Doctor Ruze that the Ministers staied on a thing of small moment And they answered that the principall exercise of Christian Religion was prayer and that it is a necessarie mean to obtaine the fauour and grace of God without which men cannot attaine successe nor any good speed in all their workes and that therfore the omission thereof was verie pernitious And that they for their part were abashed that he which called himselfe a Doctor and Diuine should make so litle account of praier which is the true practise fruite and vse of all the knowledge which can be had of God and his word and that therein one may know what was the iudgement of them which measure diuinitie by Idle and vaine speculations Then said he vn-them that the Duke de Montpensier would neuer suffer he should so be braued in his owne house nor that it should bee said that the Ministers had made their prayers Wherevnto answered the Ministers that to braue was a thing contrarie to their profession And that so farre off were they from brauing of Princes to whom they owed all honour feare and obedience that they would condemne themselues if so be they had vsed it to a man of the basest qualitie in the world And added moreouer that the Doctors and such others which charged them with such slaunders towards Princes to stirre vp and moue them against them should be assured they should once answere before God for the same Herevpon spake Doctor Ruze and demaunded of the Ministers why they stood so stifly vppon that point of prayer They fâ—â— answere proposed vnto him first that the end of the Conference was to manifest the true meaning of the scripture and make the hearers vnderstand it which thing could not be done without the spirit of God who enlightneth the minde and vnderstanding to comprehend it and openeth the mouthes to expresse the same And therefore it behoueth to implore and obtaine his grace by prayers Afterwards that God commaunded all those that want wisedome to aske it of him and to seeke what they would finde and to knocke if they would haue him to open vnto them All which things cannot otherwise bee obtained then by prayers And therefore concluded that for this cause they were necessary They alledged further that all things ought to be reduced to the glory of God and that inuocation was therefore requisite in the beginning and thankesgiuing at the ending and consummation of all our workes nor more nor lesse then wee beginne and finish our repast in blessing and praising the name of God Then said Doctor Ruze vnto them that they would not hinder them to pray vnto God but that they should do it in their hearts And they answered that it was not
Churches if it were not presently met with knowing also that it was a false reproach which they had put vpon the Ministers began to excuse them assuring the King and the Queene that the Ministers would alwaies be readie to conferre with the Doctors and to defend by the scripture the confession of their Churches in what place soeuer and before such persons as they would it should bee So that they were permitted to pray vnto God as they had required in the beginning of their conference and that they should there obserue the order and meanes which they had proposed or other better as they should thinke good to the end to auoyd all wranglings and the confusion of voyce and cries as is ordinarily seene in schooles and disputes of Sophisters and contentious persons My Lord of Neuers hauing vnderstood these words of my Lord the Admirall found them verie reasonable and perswaded as it is certaine first by the spirit of God and afterwards by a haughtinesse and generositie of heart which thrust him forward with a will to vnderstand the truth of each thing sollicited the King and Queene that by theyr commission and vnder their authoritie the said Conference might bee established And so wrought he that hee obtained of their Maiesties what hee demaunded By meanes whereof hauing aduertised my Lord the Admirall of theyr pleasures they consulted together of the order should bee held in the same conference And resolued in the end that my Lord De Neuers and my Lord the Duke of Buillon should bee the chiefe Iudges therein and that of the one side and the other should some Gentlemen be present to bee witnesses and beholders of whatsoeuer should bee done in the same And further that there should be two Notaries of both sides of the litle fort at Paris which should put in writing and signe whatsoeuer should be alleadged and proposed by the parties These conditions thus conceiued and agreed of among the said Lords were also accepted by the Doctors Vigor and De Sanctes of the one partie and by the Ministers De Spina Sureau of the other partie Who began to assemble themselues together on Tuesday the ninth of Iuly 1566. in the house of my said Lord of Neuers where in his presence and of other Lords which were with him after prayers made by the Ministers in the absence of the Doctors who because they would not be present had withdrawn themselues apart Doctor Vigor spake and began by protestation That the cause why hee and his companion were entred into Conference with the Ministers was not to be instructed in any point of Religion nor any way to withstand the Constitutions of the Councels and chiefly that of Trent by which they are forbidden to dispute with heretikes And that they for their part were wholly resolued to abide in the faith of the Romish Church but that at the request and pursuite of the Lord de Montpensier who for the reducing of his daughter Madame de Buillon had required the said Conference they were come thither to the end to satisfie him declare the holy zeale they haue to seeke and bring backe to the flocke those which are thence departed Wherevpon their speeches ended the Ministers speaking protested likewise that that which had led theÌ„ to conference with the Doctors was not because they doubted of any article conteined in their confession which they knew to bee drawne froÌ„ the pure word of God but that it was to maintaine the same against the Sophistries and cauillations of theÌ„ which would impugne it and to retaine Madame de Buillon in the good and holy institution which shee had receiued by the grace which God had giuen her Thus the protestations on both sides made the Ministers supposed that the Doctors theÌ„ following the intention of my Lord de Montpensier and the desire of Madame de Buillon should haue begunne the Conference by the Dispute of two points the Supper and the Masse But as they that will besiege and batter a Towne begin a farre off to make their Trenches and approaches to prepare themselues to the deciding and conference of the said two points they began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the Church wherevpon they would establish the certaintie of the Articles of faith and generally of all the holy Scripture And therefore the demaunds and objections were proposed by the Doctors And the answeres giuen by the Ministers De Sainctes beginning and De Spina answering as followeth Actes of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris Question WHerevpon doo you ground your Religion Answere Vpon the word of God Question What do you vnderstand by the word of God Answere The writings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doo you receiue for their writings all the bookes of the Bible as well of the olde as the new Testament attributing vnto all one like authoritie Answere No but following antiquitie wee distinguish betweene the Canonicall bookes and the Apocripha calling those Canonicall vpon whose doctrine the faith and all Christian religion is builded And those Apocripha which haue not such authoritie that wee may build or establish vpon them any Article of faith but are proper to teach and well gouerne the estate of life and manners of Christians by reason of the goodly and notable sentences which are comprised in them Question By what meanes doo you know that the one is Canonicall the other Apocripha Answere By the spirit of God which is a spirit of discretion and enlightneth all those vnto whom it is communicated to make them capable to bee able to iudge and discerne things spirituall and to know and apprehend the truth when to them it is proposed by the witnesse and assurance which thereof it giueth them in their hearts And as wee discerne the light from darkenesse by the facultie of seeing which is in the eye euen so may wee easily seperate and acknowledge the truth from vntruth and from all things in generall which may be false absurd doubtfull or indifferent when as we are furnished with the spirit of God and guided by the light which it lightneth in our hearts Question Yea but some man may boast to haue the spirit of God which hath it not And we see by Histories that all heretikes haue euer thought to haue the truth on their side and endeuoured to authorise their doctrine by inward â—euelations which they feigne to haue receiued of Gods spirit Whereby it may appeare what daunger there should bee to referre the censure of a booke or doctrine to the witnesse of the spirit of God which one particular man shal imagine or feigne to haue receiued in his heart Answere Very easie it is to auoyd such daunger in following the counsell which Saint Iohn doth giue vs in his first Catholike Epistle not to beleeue indifferently all spirits but to proue and diligently to examine them before wee receiue or approue what they propose And the triall to be made in
particular faithfull man should be aswell the pillar of truth as the vniuersal church Moreouer in making of particular reuelatiō of like waight with the iudgement of the church they plainly contradict the 4. article of their confession of faith where it is thus written We acknowledge those bookes to be canonicall and very certaine rules of our faith not so much by the common consent and agreement of the Church as by the testimonie and inward perswasion of the holy Ghost which maketh vs to discerne them frō other Ecclesiasticall bookes By the said article men may see how much more they attribute to themselues then to all the vniuersall church Which article they now contradict attributing as much to the one as to the other And also in their confessiō of faith lastly printed the said article hath been taken away as is seene by that which De Spina hath now brought hither imprinted at Geneua 1564. Whereby it appeareth that they be retracted as confessing that it behoueth to rest more vpon the common cōsent of the church thē vpon any particular mās iudgemēt Which thing is very reasonable seeing the holy Ghost is promised to the church vniuersall not to euery particular person Answere If men may esteeme the Ministers fantasticke although they haue the word of God more shall the Doctors bee holden for such in things they maintaine and defend without and contrarie to the word of God Touching the second point where the Doctors reproach the Ministers that they doo doubt as it seemeth by their answere of the assistance of the spirit of God to the church The answer is that that is not the doubt but to know which is the true Church And touching the third point whereof say the Doctors might bee inferred that particular persons could not erre The consequence is naught for as much as the spirite of God may sometimes depart from particular persons and in this case they may faile and erre as Dauid confesseth to haue happened to him To the fourth point the Ministers do answere that they no way contradict the alledged Article of their confession for that comparison is made in the answere of two reuelations of the holy Ghost the one made to the bodie and the other to the members which they maintaine to bee of like waight touching the certaintie thereof And in the confession mention is made of the reuelation of GOD his spirite which is the cause of the Churches consent which doth follow as the effect thereof Now so it is that the cause being preferred before his effect there is great reason that the reuelation of God his spirit compared with the consent of his Church be preferred vnto it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the contrarietie which they pretend to happen in the confessions printed at diuers times and by diuers Printers they shall bee answered when it shall please them to debate the Articles particularly Obiection Where they set foorth the doubt they haue of the true Church as much men may say of pretended reuelations of God his spirit vnto particular persons Of whom likewise it may bee doubted whether they bee members of the Church For the other point where they denie that they contradict the fourth article of their confession it seemeth in shew that there is contradiction for as much as they compare the particular reuelatiō with the consent of the church as by their answere appeareth Also that which is alledged that reuelation is cause of consent to preferre it to that as the cause to the effect seemeth to serue to small purpose for it is as if one shuld say that the reuelation is to be preferred to the word of God and the holy scripture For very certaine it is that reuelation goeth before the word and scripture And as it appeareth in the text of the Confession as euery one may easily iudge the authors thereof speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their owne spirit then that which is of the iudgement of the Church And touching an other point where it is said that particular persons may sometimes faile when the holy Ghost doth leaue them By that wee may conclude that wee must not infallibly rest on the pretended inspirations of particular persons because we may doubt of them whether they be destitute of God his spirit or no which cannot be done of the Church Wherefore more sure it is to stay vpon the Church infallably gouerned by the holy Ghost then vpon priuate pretended inspirations And so do the Catholikes therein neuer following their priuate iudgement and therefore cannot be esteemed phantasticke But rather those which preferre their proper iudgement which they shrowde with the title of particular inspiration The Doctors require one text of the scripture by the which the holy Ghost is promised vnto euery one in particular as it is to the Church vniuersall to know and iudge and discerne which are the scriptures Answere Touching the first point As indeed they approue not all Churches to be true Churches which say they be so So do they not also approue them all faithful who boast themselues to be so For the second point the comparison of the Doctors is not proper which thus they haue made as who should say that reuelation is to bee preferred to the word of God c. Forasmuch as the word of God all the writings aswell of the Prophets as of the Apostles are as much of the reuelations of the Spirit of God that no more difference there is betweene the one and the other then is betweene Genus and Species And touching that which is added in this article that the reuelation precedeth the Scripture It behooueth to distinguish betweene the reuelations made to the Prophets before they put them in writing and those which haue beene made to them that read their writings for the vnderstanding of them Touching the first we confesse they goe before the Scripture And touching the second wee say that they follow the same For the third article the Ministers doo answere that it is easie to iudge whether the Spirit of God assist a particular person or whether it bee withdrawne by the things which he proposeth when they bee reduced to the word of God and censured by the rules which are there proposed vnto vs as is sayde Touching the demand it should bee too tedious a thing to alledge all the places where it is written That the Spirit of God is communicated to the particular members of the Church onely let them see in the 1. Cor. 2. where expresly it is said that the Spirite of God is communicated to the chosen to know and discerne the things which bee of God And in Esay 55. the Lord doth promise to shed his Spirite vpon the faithfull as water vpon the earth And in Ioel likewise the second and Ieremie 34. And the 1. Epistle of Saint Iohn
difference betweene both parties touching the distinction of the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha Obiection Although the Ministers doo affirme that they build their Religion vpon the word of God yet build they Gods word vpon their inward reuelation So that such a reuelation is the foundation of the Word and consequently of their religion For they receiue not for the word of God but that which they thinke to bee particularly reuealed to them Touching the other Article wherein they finde fault that the Doctors haue said that faith is obtained by hearing of the word of God it seemeth they will stay vpon small things because they will not goe to the principall And where they say that faith is the gift of God and therefore is not gotten it is too plaine by manifold texts of Scripture that one selfe-same thing to be giuen and obtained is not repugnant As the kingdome of heauen which is giuen to the blessed and notwithstanding men obtaine it by true faith working by charitie And the scripture it selfe dooth call it a reward and recompence of good workes And Saint Paul saith that by liberalitie and almesdeeds the grace of God is gained Yea that which Saint Paul saith Fides ex auditu Faith commeth by hearing cannot otherwise be vnderstood but that faith commeth by hearing the word of God which is the obtaining thereof by the meane of hearing the word preached although it be a gift of God The like subtiltie they vse willing to reproue that which hath bene spoken that faith is the truth reuealed as putting great difference betweene the truth reuealed and the reuelation of truth Meet it were that the subtiltie were vaileable against S. Paul who saith Panis quem frangimus nonne communicatio corporis Domini est The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of the Lord Which is as much to say as Panis fractio nonne c. The breaking of the bread is it not c. And therefore to speake properly it behoueth that the text of S. Paul bee subiect to such reprehensions And as touching this article that they may not enter thereinto albeit the Ministers do reply the Doctors will say no more of it as beeing a thing too much impertinent For in the end should we speake of Merit and from that matter fall into an other It troubleth them to deale with the vocation of lawfull Ministers of the Church and to eschew that matter would not alledge what they might without straying that first before we receiue their doctrine it was meete to examine whether they were Ministers lawfully sent from the true Church to preach the word of God and in their preachings to be heard of the people according to the text of S. Paul aboue alledged Which thing had they of the new Religion well considered a very sufficient argument should they haue had for not receiuing of their doctrine because it is more cleare then the day that they be not Ministers sent by the Pastors of the Church but thrust in themselues to preach vnable to shewe any signe of their calling from men and much lesse from God And were it lawfull for euery one to preach the word which saith he is sent there would be infinite Sects as we see at this time haue happened And they say no more of this matter for feare to aggrauate these things any further Touching the Article where mention is made how a man may knowe that a reuelation is of Ood where it is said by the Ministers that men should rather know it by the word then by the consent of many that maketh nothing to the purpose of the Doctors For the question is how a man should iudge a booke to containe the word of God and not to iudge of the doctrine by the word alreadie receiued The Doctors would willingly desire and doo pray the Ministers to answere directly to the very point Touching that they haue saide Of the consent of many The Doctors said not so but spake of the consent of the Church which is also as infallible as the word of God For as it is certaine that the holy Ghost is author of the Word so also is it certaine that hee is the soule of the Church by whose conduct she can neuer erre witnesse S. Paul who calleth her Columnam firmamentum veritatis The ground and pillar of truth But they will not enter into this question whether the multitude of the Church may erre or not Neuerthelesse it will not be found â—ithens the Church was planted after the death of Iesus Christ that shee hath bene of lesse number then the Sects of heretikes And that alledged of Constance and of the time of the olde Testament seruâ—th nothing to that purpose for there is great difference betweene the Synagogue of the Iewes and the Church which is the congregation of all Nations beleeuing in Iesus Christ and which cannot be or consist but in a most great multitude otherwise the promises made to the Church of the Gentiles should be vaine for it is said to Abraham that his â—eed this must not bee vnderstood of the carnall should be multiplied as the starres of heauen and the sand of the sea Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching the Prophets c. The Doctors do say that they confesse there is great difference betweene phantasticall imaginations and the reuelation of the holy Ghost but the Ministers doo not answere how they would proue their particular perswasions to be reuelations rather then the vaine and foolish imaginations of the Prophets which Ezechiel spake of The which notwithstanding they called inspirations and what they said and preached they called also the Word of God Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching the Anabaptists c. The Doctors say that to one selfe-same end doo the Ministers and Anabaptists wholly produce the selfe-same places of which mention is made that is to say to stay and assure their doctrine to be of God because therof they haue particular reuelation as God hath promised them by the Prophets And for this selfe-same cause haue the Ministers produced the said testimonies of the scripture to proue that euery faithfull man may indge by his particular inspiration if a booke do containe the word of God and distinguish a booke Canonicall from Apocrypha to iudge and discerne the true doctrine from the false which is the selfe-same foundation of the Anabaptists and other heretikes To that Article which beginneth touching that which is produced of Brentius c. The Doctors say that the Ministers haue not well conceiued their meaning For they bring not the saying of Brentius and Bucer but onely because they say that they know the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture by the tradition of the Church and not by particular inspiration as the Ministers Touching the Article following the Doctors say there was a time when some made doubt of certaine bookes of the Scripture as of the Apocalips the Canonicall
naturall proprietie of a body can make a great and thicke body to passe in a space and place vnequall to it greatnesse largenesse and thicknesse The Doctors cyted what our Lord saith in the 19. of S. Mathew It is easier for a Cable to goe through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen Two things haue the Ministers answered vnto the one that in the translation wee must not vse Cable but rather Camel although neuertheles their own French Bible of Anthony Rebulls impression which they haue brought containeth the translation of this word Cable And Caluin himself likewise in his Hermony of the foure Euangelists saith that to bee better But here in appeareth to be truth what Tertullian against the Valentinians and before him Ireneus in his first booke and 14. Chapter against the Valentinians doo say That they which seperate themselues from vs to go to an other schoole do alwaies inuent some new thing that the disciples may bee found more cunning then their Maisters But well this word Camell beeing yeelded vnto them as the Doctors doubt not to haue bene expounded by Saint Hillary S. Ierom and others the reason thereof is yet more strong For it is yet more repugnant that a crooked grosse and great Camell then a Cable should enter through the eye of a needle The other reason giuen by the Ministers is that God cannot make a Camel or Cable to enter throgh the eye of a needle which is notwithstanding against the pure word of Iesus Christ who saith not it is is impossible to God but rather easie to do that and by comparison more easie vnto God then to make a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen which neuerthelesse is said by our Lord to be possible not vnto men but vnto God to whom there is nothing vnpossible Whervpō the Doctors say thus If God can do that which is more difficult he can doo that which is more easie Now by the text of the scripture it is said that God can make a rich man enter into the kingdome of heauen which is the more difficult he can therfore make a Camell or Cable to enter through the eye of a needle which is more easie The answeres of the Ministers here aboue confuted tend to such absurdities and blasphemies that Iesus Christ by his almightinesse could not enter through the closed doores that hee could not come forth of the belly of his mother through her body without fraction that he could not make a visible body to be inuisible that a grosse and great body might be in a place vnequall to it that hee could not by his diuine power make penetration of dimensions and that he could not make by the same diuine power one body to bee in two places for it is like reason of the last article and of the others albeit such things are declared in the scriptures not onely to be possible but euen the most part of them to haue bene done And the Doctors do wonder how the Ministers dare denie such things seeing themselues must necessarily confesse if their doctrine of the Supper be true that the body of Iesus Christ is in diuers places which they proue thus The faithfull really receiue in their soules the substance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ by the working of the holy Ghost and not the bread and the wine onely or else as saith Caluin in the 4 booke 17. Chapter and 11. section of his Institution the effect and vertue of the same Sacrament Now the Doctors conclude thus It is impossible for a man to receiue into him the substance of the body of Iesus Christ but the body of Iesus Christ is in him But all the faithfull in the Supper do receiue the same into their soules therefore must the body of Iesus Christ be in them and by consequent in diuers places to wit in all places where their Supper is made and likewise in heauen They say further that Caluin in his Institution the fourtth booke 17. Chapter and 24. sect saith That in the Supper the power of God is required to the ende that the flesh of Iesus Christ may pierce euen vnto vs and that humane nature cannot comprehend the same But it behoueth that the power of God doo worke therein And by this meane Caluin doth admit by the power of God the flesh of Iesus Christ in many places to wit in heauen and in vs into whom it must pierce by the power of God And in the tenth number he saith That the truth signified and represented by the signes must bee represented and exhibited in the same place where the signes be Which hee proueth by reason in many places to wit that the signes must no more bee voyd then the Doue was voyd of the holy Ghost But as the essence and substance of the holy Ghost was conioyned and present with the Doue so the flesh and bloud of our Lord before there be a true Sacrament must be conioyned and vnited with the signes The passages are against Heshusius and in his booke of the Supper and vpon the first of the 11. Chapter to the Corinthians And although the Ministers will answere the Doctors beseech them well to weigh and consider the text of Caluin and of the reason he giueth of the holy Ghost They doo obiect further that the Ministers in their Supper doo attribute more to the humane power then to the omnipotencie of God yea they do more then God can do which is that they brag to do a thing by their faith which implyeth contradiction saying in their confession of faith exhibited to the Bishops in the congregatiō at Poissy That faith maketh things absent to be present in one selfe-same instant and place That is to say in the soules of the faithfull when they celebrate their Supper which is as much to say as faith maketh things not present present at one selfe-same instant and place So that to euery faithfull in the Supper comming worthily therevnto is the body of Iesus Christ there present by the power of faith And neuerthelesse it is not there present for they say so and that it is onely in heauen Wherein appeareth that there is implication of contradiction to wit present not really present And the small starting hole they told vs of that the body is aboue corporally and spiritually in the Supper in the harts of the faithfull can serue for nothing For the spiritualtie cannot take away the substance of the thing and their faith cannot make a body not to be a body and that a body haue not it dimensions as heretofore they haue said Therefore howsoeuer they confesse that the faithfull in the Supper receiue into their soules the substance of the body of Iesus Christ will they or nill they must they necessarily confesse that either their faith is more mightie then the infinite vertue and power of God or else that God can make
superfluitie or repetition in them or whether they be impertinent let the reader iudge But for this cause the Doctors will not cease to require eftsoones the Ministers that they bring some passage of the scripture to ground that God cannot make one body to be in two places seeing that this consequence is ouerfoolish and ridiculous God cannot lye Therefore can he not make one bodie to be in two places For so should they make their assumption Now God hath said and ordained that one body cannot be in two places therefore can he not make it so to be But neuer will they instruct by the truth of the Assumption or Minor Proposition the contrarie whereof hath bene sufficiently verified by many testimonies of the scripture The Doctors also require the Ministers to produce some Father yea some man euer reputed Catholique which hath dared to pronounce that God could not make one body to be in two places For full answere the said Ministers can bring forth none which euer hath vsed such a speech except S. Augustine but by them falsly alledged both touching the letter the sence of the letter The Doctors will not cease to beate both into the Ministers and also all persons that there is no place of scripture found nor booke of any auncient Father that God cannot make one body to be in diuers places Concerning the last article the Doctors haue resolued to shewe by the pure and expresse word of God expounded by common consent of all antiquitie that our Lord did institute the Sacrament and sacrifice of the Aultar and will teach the effect and vertue of the Masse according to the institution and ordinance of Iesus Christ And will make it also to be vnderstood that the Ministers haue polluted and defiled the Sacrament by Iesus Christ instiruted And that the Supper which the Ministers maintaine is no way the Sacrament but a prophanation of holy things containing execrable blasphemie whereof the whole world ought to haue horror Sunday the 12. of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. day of Iuly about fiue of the Clocke in the enening Anno. 1560. THe Ministers before they answere particularly to the obiections and slaunders of the Doctors seeing that each way and causelesse they taxe them for blasphemers haue aduised to tell them in the beginning of theyr answere that to bee wronged by them they hold it not so great an iniurie nor themselues the more blasphemers for being so holden and reputed by them no more then our Lord Iesus Christ because he was so pronounced by Caiphas the high Priest and S. Stâ—phen to whom the like crime was imputed by the enemies of truth And Naboth who was likewise accused to haue blasphemed God and the king albeit he was innocent For it is the manner of all them which hate the truth and the light to blaspheme that which they vnderstand not as thereof write S. Peter and S. Iude and to giue the raines sometimes to their furie so that they shamelesly denie things most apparant and confesse others concerning the same which bee straunge and absurd Which thing is seene to haue befallen the Doctors about the Ministers whom they neither can heare attentiuely nor iudge of rightly And the full end of their purpose it seemeth is to contradict them indifferently in all things and to say without any examination or iudgement that whatsoeuer they produce is blasphemy and lies For the Ministers speaking of the omnipotencie of God according to that they haue learned thereof and is contained in the scriptures haue euer said that God is almightie in as much as he can do without any exception whatsoeuer he will and that there is no power in heauen nor in earth which is able to let alter or in any maner or wise hinder the full effect and perfect execution of his eternall vnchangeable counsailes But neuerthelesse that his omnipotencie must not be stretched without any discretion or distinction to all the things generally which men can conceiue or in their foolish phantasies imagine but to those onely which neither are nor can be contrarie to his iustice to his goodnesse to his wisedome nor consequently to his holy and eternall will wisedome and truth which is and euer shal be to doo all things well and wisely with number waight and measure and without that there is any inequitie disorder or contradiction in whatsoeuer he doth All which things being well vnderstood and considered will discharge the Ministers among all good and iust people from the sâ—aunders which the Doctors impose vpon them and falâ—ly published to make them odious to all the world and stirre vp publike hate against them Wherefore to make their slaunders more like to truth by adding and diminishing they change and alter almost the whole meaning of the Ministers well knowing that otherwise they could neuer haue meane to ground their slaunders nor to giue any colour or likelihood therevnto which thing shall now appeare by the deduction and particular confutation of the pretended blasphemies obiected to the Ministers by the said Doctors First the Doctors accuse the Ministers in that they haue said that the omnipotencie of God ought not to be measured but by the things onely which bee agreeable to his will and are not derogate either to his wisedome his truth his nature nor to the order which hee hath established in the world And to verifie their accusation and slaunder they breake in two this whole sentence and take thereof but the last part onely the which they haue seperated from those going before wherewith it was conioyned expresly by the Ministers the more clearely to expound and shewe how the omnipotencie of God ought to be knowne beleeued and adored of all the world Moreouer they haue not taken nor vnderstood the word Order as doo the Ministers Whereby the Ministers haue willed to signifie the estate and disposition which God by his prouidence and eternall and vnchangeable will hath established conserueth and entertaineth in all things rightly to gouerne and let that no confusion happen in his workes euen as S. Augustine hath defined it in his bookes De Ordine and hee himselfe hath vsed the same in the fift booke of his confessions Which the Doctors not vnderstanding haue reduced that which the Ministers thereof said to the ordinarie and wonted course of nature and to the mouing of creatures which bee in the world And to giue exception to the doctrine aforesaid they obiect the myracles which God doth aboue nature and thereof inferre that God doth and can doo many things against the order by him established and decreed Whervnto the Ministers answer that myracles albeit they be done beyond aboue the ordinary course of nature yet are they not done against the order aforesaid For as much as all things reduced to the prouidence and ordinance of God
them And for conclusiō they haue no other foundation of their saying then their owne coniectures and imaginations and the false interpretations which they giue to the writings of the Fathers To the faith wherof they would gladly constraine subiect the Church to the end that hauing laid that foundation they might afterwards build therevpon all the absurdities and errors they shall delight in touching the same And where they presuppose when Christ entered the shut doores walked vpon the waters and went out of the Sepulchre that such myracles were done rather in the person then in the other things Iustine writeth the contrarie saying that without any change happened either in his body or in that of S. Peter he made by his diuine power the Sea against nature to serue him to walke As also S. Hillary to the same purpose saith That by his power hee made all things passeable Wherevnto likewise agreeth S. Iohn Chrisostome attributing all that to diuine power and freely confessing that hee knew not the maner and the fashion thereof By meanes whereof the Ministers are much abashed that the Doctors are so presumptuous to determine a thing which by the scripture and Fathers hath bene left vndecided and wherein as S. Hillary saith wisely sence and words do faile the truth of the deed exceedeth the capacitie of humane reason How dare then the Doctors so boldly say that the body of Iesus Christ passed through the doores that there was penitration of dimensions that two bodies were in one selfe-same place Seeing that of all that neither in the scripture nor in the auncient Fathers there is not one onely sillable and that as is said the Fathers do confesse that their vnderstanding and sence were too feeble to comprehend or declare the reason of such a my sterie As touching the birth of Iesus Christ the Ministers repose themselues vpon the scripture which saith clearly that the Virgin was with childe that she brought forth that shee gaue sucke and that Apertaest vulua the wombe is opened in the child-birth They adde that the same doth nought derogate nor preiudice her virginitie and purenesse which consisteth in this point onely that shee knew not not was knowne of any man Moreouer they say that in beleeuing the same they follow the scripture and consequently they cannot erre nor bee heretikes nor they likewise which subiect and subdue their sence to the word of God as in this haue done the Fathers which are by them alledged In the following article proposed by the Doctors touching the manner of the resurrection of Iesus Christ there is nothing but coniectures slaunders repetitions troublesome and superfluous which the Ministers by their former answeres haue largely satisfied All that which afterwards followeth in the writings of the Doctors are but iniuries and scoffes in stead of reasons and arguments which is the last recourse of contentious spirits who seeing themselues destitute of reason and vnable to giue place to the truth defend themselues by clamours and slaunders Some reason should the Doctors haue for that which they say concerning the word Aphantos if there followed Autois but that which the Euangelist saith Ap'auton sheweth clearely that the interpretation of the said place and vnderstanding of S. Ambrose where vnto the Ministers agree is better then that of the Doctors As touching the opening of the heauens the Ministers answere that vsing the language of the scripture which saith clearely that in the baptisme of Iesus Christ the heauens were clouen asunder and then opned when S. Stephen was stoned they cannot faile And to apply to the ayre the signification of heauen is a humane imagination This also seemeth should diminish the Maiestie of God and of Iesus Christ who is lifted vp aboue all the heauens to establish so lowe as the ayre the Throne of his Maiestie And there is no likelyhood in that which the Doctors say touching the being of two bodies in one selfe-same place and that which the Ministers say of the sight of Stephen which extended euen to the heauens for as much as the one is a myracle of the power of God in nature and the other a wonder against nature and the will of God The Doctors in the article following do falsly impute to the Ministers that they affirmed it was a thing impossible for God to make a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle for they neuer touched this point in theyr former answeres but that part of the sentence onely where it is spoken of rich men Now to answere too and resolue their obiections the Ministers say that euen as God can saue a rich man by chaunging him and emptying his heart of so much vaine trust and presumption as is therein and whereof beeing grosse and filled hee is vncapeable to enter into the Kingdome of heauen so to him it is also easie to make a Camell passe through the eye of a needle hauing circumcised and pared off the grossenesse thereof and other things which might hinder the same to passe ****** First that the Supper which is celebrated in the reformed Church is the true institution and ordinance of the sonne of God Afterwards that the end for which it was instituted is to assure the faithfull of the true participation which they haue in the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified for their saluation and in his bloud shead for the remission of their sinnes and for the confirmation of the new couenant which God hath made with his people Thirdly they say that it is necessarie that the bread and wine abide in their proper substance and that after consecration otherwise they cannot be Sacraments of the body and bloud of Christ Lastly the Ministers say that the vnbeleeuers presenting themselues at the Supper by meanes of their vnbeliefe can there no other thing receiue then the outward signes of bread and wine and that to their iudgement and condemnation The Ministers on the other side propose vnto them touching the Masse that such as it is and now celebrated in the Romance Church it is nothing but a humane inuention and tradition Also that it is a corruption and prophanation as well of the holy Supper of our Lord Iesus Christ as of the true and lawfull vse thereof Also that it is an abuse of the Priesthood of Popish Priests and that there is no other Priesthood in the new Testament ordained to get and obtaine remission of sinnes nor also to make intercession and by prayers and merits to obtaine the fauour of God then the onely Priesthood of Iesus Christ They say moreouer that it is a blasphemie and sacriledge but of the sacrifice of the Romish Priests and that there is no other oblation then that which Iesus Christ once made with his body vpon the Crosse by which the wrath of God could be appeased his iustice satisfied sinners reconciled to God sinnes pardoned and the hand-writing of eternall death cancelled and abolished Also they say that the seperation of
likewise behoueth when the scripture saith that Iesus Christ pierced the Heauens that the word pierced be taken in it proper signification and strictly which thing directly repugneth the diuision or opening as things opposed one to another To which reason there is no answere giuen more then ordinarily is to the other arguments of the said Doctors Touching the differeÌ„ce which the Ministers put between the sight of S. Stephen which stretched euen to the height of Heauen and the being of two bodies in one selfe-same place and that the one is a myracle in nature and the other a wonder against nature and the will of GOD. The Ministers good Secretaries of Gods Counsaile and will should do much if they could teach the Doctors that God hath willed the one and that hee cannot will the other and then shall there bee reason for their saying to shewe the difference they haue assigned betweene these two The inconstancie of the Ministers is knowne in the article where the Camell is mentioned to wit whether God can cause him to passe through the eye of a needle For in the Ministers first answere made without any distinction haue they answered that to make a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle was a thing impossible with God And in the second answere do they alledge that Iesus Christ in saying that what was impossible with men was possible with God no other thing pretended but to answere the question which his Disciples had proposed namely who could be saued answering wherevnto he said that it was impossible with men and that such sentence of Iesus Christ ought not to be vnderstood but of the saluation and conuersion of rich men onely which exclusiue speech when the Ministers affirme that our Lord saying that what is impossible to man is possible with God must not be vnderstood but of the saluation of the rich clearely sheweth that the Ministers intent was to say by their answere that our Lord ment not to comprehend vnder this proposition That which is impossible with men is possible with God the possibilitie to make a Camell passe through the eye of a needle As if this proposition were not to be generally vnderstood whereof our Lord inferreth this particular It is possible with God to saue a rich man And hee himselfe by expresse words speaketh generally Omnia apud Deum possibilia snnt With God are all things possible The Doctors desire that they which can read this present writing would note the starting holes of the Ministers who wontedly auouch and denie the errors they maintaine when they are thereof by the trueth conuinced Now the Ministers not daring to persist in defence that God cannot cause a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle haue inuented a very foolish interpretation in confessing that God can do it but that the meanes should be in this that God might pare off and diminish the grossenesse of a Camell and all other things which might hinder it passage there But that glose the Text cannot brooke For our Lord speaketh of a thing wholy impossible to men which should not be For although to make and bring forth a Camell of so little stature and bignesse that he might passe thorow the eye of a needle were a thing impossible with man yet if God brought forth such a one or if he did so much diminish the greatnesse and grossenesse of a Camell and that man might hold the same he might well cause it to passe But the question is not of the production of a Camell or of making him great or small but of causing him to passe The which were hee so little should not be a myracle as touching the passage but onely touching the production of such a liuing Creature or the chaunging of his quantitie Also in taking this name Camelus for a Cable as Caluin thought best the absurditie of this new exposition shall better appeare For well may man so much lessen a Cable by the detraction of it matter that in the ende he may make it passe through the eye of a needle Moreouer it should be easie for a man to make a needle whose eye should be so large that a Cable yea a Camell might passe there through But the scripture speaketh of things impossible with man and as they are in their owne nature Therefore as the eye of a needle must be taken in it little and straight quantitie so also must a Camell or Cable be taken in it naturall grossenesse And neuer were the Auncients so subtill to in t uent such ingenious interpretations as one could not reade without laughter But the Ministers cannot escape with this goodly exposition that one seeth not clearly they deny the power of God can stretch so farre that it can make a Camel in his crookednesse and thicknesse to passe through the eye of a needle but only when hee shall by the power of God be brought into quantitie proportionable to the eye of a needle which is against the expresse Text of the scripture and against the expositioÌ„ of auncient interpreters although that besides the litterall sence the Camel be sometimes allegorically expounded by them But the allegorical exposition of that place taketh not away the truth of the litteral seÌ„ce no more then the acts of Iesus Christ cease to be true acts albeit the interpreters expound them allegorically Wherin the Ministers are deceiued supposing because they haue read in S. Ierome some interpretation besides the litteral that the comparison which our Lord in this behalf hath vsed was a parable which is false For a true argument it is which our Lord deduceth to shewe his power to saue a rich man because this is a thing more hard theÌ„ to cause a Camel to passe through the eye of a needle The Doctors to conclude vpon this article do eftsoones shew vnto the Ministers that of the deniall of the stretching forth of Gods almightinesse many other absurdities which cannot otherwise be termed then blasphemies do follow Namely that two bodies cannot be in one place by the almightinesse of God that GOD cannot make a bodie without circumscription of place that Iesus Christ entered not nor could enter through the closed doores arose not nor could aâ—â—â—e without the stone were rowled from the graue that hee went not nor could goe out of the Virgines wombe without fraction in the bodie of his mother that hee pearced not nor could pearce the heauens without opening of them that he made not nor could make a bodie no not his owne inuisible that he could not cause a Camell or Cable retaining it grossenesse to passe through the eye of a needle Which things do follow the deniall of his almightinesse and is an execrable blasphemie and very Atheisme Behold the enormious absurdities which they are constrained to confesse that denie the real presence of Iesus Christ in the SacrameÌ„t of the Aultar which the Doctors pray to be well considered by the readers of
Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection maketh after hee had disputed against them which denied the same to be possible with God And it seemeth they then said as the Ministers haue formerly said that there was something by the scriture impossible with God to wit that he could not lye nor deceiue and that thereof they tooke occasion to goe further and to dispute that the resurrection was to him also impossible So that the Ministers because God cannot lye haue endeuouted â—o inferre that to put one body in two places was impossible for him as well as to lye and deceiue Tertullian in the end accordeth with the Marcionists and saith Rather had I confesse that God cannot deceiue and that hee is onely weake and impotent in deceit to the end that thereby hee seeme not to haue taught and spoken one way and to haue otherwise disposed of the deed contained in his word Then if hee cannot concludeth Tertullian deceiue and abuse the resurrection must be beleeued as it is carried in his word and not otherwise least deceit be found in the word of God The Doctors say also they willingly confesse that God cannot lye nor deceiue and that it must therefore be beleeued that so he hath willed and ordained the truth of the Supper in such sort and not otherwise as his word soundeth and beareth Now so it is that his word plainly and expresly beareth that he affirmeth that what hee gaue with his hands to his Apostles to eat was his body deliuered for vs we must therefore beleeue that his word saith not otherwise then his will is least he be esteemed a lyar And that as he saith This is my body This is my bloud that it is so indeed The which the Doctors by Gods assistance will declare in the next Conference to shewe that he hath not onely power to establish his body in the holy Sacrament but also that he hath willed it and so hath done it Artictles proposed by the Doctosr for the next Conference and others following according to the order of the said Articles ALthough following the order of Conference touching the Apostles Creed they ought secondly to entreate of an other article as the Ministers themselues in the beginning of the Conference not onely accorded but demaunded offering the imprinted Articles of their confession bearing date the 1564. yeare from the first vnto the last to be examined by the Doctors Neuerthelesse the Doctors seeing it will not be much from the purpose after they haue intreated of the omnipotencie of God which extendeth to bee powerfull to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and in the Sacrament in continuing that matter to enter into the probation of his will they are content to shewe that he hath not power onely but that also he hath wil and are consequently determined to refute all the blasphemies and heresies contained in their Supper which are called reformed to the end also they be not deemed to flye the list touching the Supper and the Masse as the Ministers haue reproached them Neuerthelesse they protest that their meaning is after the conclusion of this matter and resolution giuen to returne to examine the wonderfull errors of the Ministers which in number are many against the other articles of the Creed which thing the Ministers vnwilling that the Doctors should pursue the order begun do greatly feare as one may see and iudge foreseeing that in the next Conference an other blasphemie would be shewed them which the Church calling it selfe Reformed against the goodnesse of God after Caluins doctrine maintaineth to wit that God worketh in the reprobate the euill and sinne they commit which is an execrable Atheisme and no lesse then the deniall of the omnipotencie of God And they that can read these Conferences continuing to the ende of the discussion of the Ministers errors and of their religioÌ„ against all the articles of the Creed shall bee likewise abashed to vnderstand the absurdities and blasphemies issuing from the same An other point there is yet which inuiteth the Ministers to demaund tractation of the Supper which is that they haue the whole matter alreadie squared by many of their Sect who haue written of the same And chiefly the great booke of Peter Martir will not faile them Wherby they shal be furnished with I know not what infamous obiectioÌ„s of some passages of the Fathers broken depraued or euilly applied to impugne in shew the truth of the body in the Sacrament But for defence of all other their errors the Ministers are meanely armed and their conscience doth sufficiently witnesse that by the scripture decision of generall Councells and common accord of the writings of all the auncient Fathers no apparance to the contrary they are conuinced and condemned of their errors against the said Creed Now to enter into the examination of the Supper of the Ministers the Doctors do maintaine that it is a prophane eating and drinking not differing from common eating and drinking but in that it is worse that they abuse the holy institution of the Supper of Iesus and pollute and defile such their banket with all impietie blasphemie They also maintaine that the Ministers do great iniurie to the Sacrament of Iesus Christ falsly to attribute to such their prophane and polluted banket the name of Sacrament And to the end that the proofe thereof be more cleare the Doctors demaund of the Ministers whether they receiue one common doctrine receiued not only in the Church Catholique but also almost in all Sects which are seperated from it That is that in the confection of the Sacraments there be two essentiall and necessarie things the matter or element and the word Secondly what word with the Element is necessary to make a Sacrament and namely that which the Ministers do call the Sacrament of the Supper and whether it behoueth to vse certaine words or no Thirdly whether the word haue some power or effectuall working in the Sacrament what whether it worke vpon something in the matter of the bread and wine Fourthly whether by the same word consecration bee made of the matter of the Sacrament or no Fiftly whether by the word consecration be not made of the matter to wit how the same consecration is made and by what vertue the same is made Sixtly whether besides the bread and wine and the spirituall graces and benefites of Iesus Christ the true body and bloud of Iesus Christ in their proper substance and not in spirituall effect onely be really receiued in the Supper And the Doctors do demand vpon this article a plaine confession of the faith of the Ministers They demaund further whether in receiuing the bread before taking of the wine they receiue not by the eating of the bread the body and bloud of Iesus Christ or the body onely Briefly whether they admit that which Diuines call a Concomitance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ They demaund also whether
in his deeds there should be imperfection And they further say that it should not be onely against the disposition and ordinary course of nature as the Doctors faigne to haue thought and vnderstood but also against the eternall and vnchangeable will of our God And as touching that which the Doctors to proue that God can do something against order do propose that he can chaunge and alter the order established in the world The Ministers confesse the same but they denie that in so dooing he should do any thing which were disordered As for example all faithfull and Christian men doo beleeue beleeue that God will renew at the last the estate of the whole world wherein there is nothing in the meane time which is not well ordained perfect and in all points accomplished The Doctors in the following article confound the distinction proposed by the Ministers in their answere betweene the will of God manifested and that he hath hidden in himselfe and is equall to his power as the Ministers before haue at large declared And the Doctors do falsly presuppose touching the reuealed will of God taking that generally which the Ministers haue graunted in some particulars onely to wit that God can doo more in ceraine things then he hath declared to will which none doubteth As saith S. Augustine in the booke of perfect Iustice that he cannot make a man to be perfect in this world and sanctifie him in such sort that there remaine no more in him any infirmitie or imperfection although hee hath neuer declared vnto vs by his word that hee would do it but contrariwise that the flesh in all the regenerate will alwaies refist the spirit so that all the time of their liues they shall be in many points imperfect But albeit in that and some other like cases God can do more then his will declareth which he hath manifested to vs in his word yet neuerthelesse can it not be said but that there be other cases wherein God hath reuealed his will vnto vs against which he can do or ordaine nothing As for example hee hath declared vnto vs that hee is one that he is immutable incomprehensible wholly good wholly iust wholly perfect and wholly true Against all which things which to vs are manifested and clearly proposed in his word impossible it is for him euer to thinke say do or ordaine Now the thing proposed and debated by the Doctors touching the being of one body at one instant in diuers places is comprised in that ranke beeing as is said contrarie to the truth of God Which shall serue for answere to the Doctors slaunders and to all that they haue proposed in this article Likewise in an other following article where they say that God not onely can but will also cause that one body occupie diuers places at one selfe-same time That shall be yet more impossible for them to proue then the power aforesaid for which they haue hitherto so much trauelled in vaine In their definition of one bodye in the Article following they contradict themselues when they say that the measures are essentiall vnto it and that it may neuerthelesse bee incircumscript for if it bee needfull that the dimensions whereof it is composed bee finite of necessitie it followeth therevpon that then it is finite limited and circumscript To that which they afterwards say that the reason which the Ministers haue taken of the Creed and alledged to proue that the body of Iesus Christ is in heauen in a place certaine is friuolous The Ministers say that the Doctors shewe therein what reuerence they beare to the word of GOD and his spirite who hath reuealed the same vnto vs and to the Apostles which declare them vnto vs. To iustifie Gracian and the Canon which the Ministers alledge of S. Augustine by which they proue that the bodie of Christ must necessarily be in a place certaine the Ministers bring yet for more ample confirmation the 4. booke and 10. distinction of the Maister of the Sentences who recyting the selfe-same passage of S. Augustine vseth the verbe Oportet and not Potest As touching that of Iustine which the Doctors alledge to proue the myracles which were then done that Iesus Christ appeared in the middest of his Disciples the gates being shut and that hee walked vpon the waters were done in his person The Ministers are amazed how the Doctors doo yet repeate the same For as much as the said Iustine as they haue before beene answered expresly saith that when the said myracles were done there was no chaunge of the body of Iesus Christ which thing had the myracles bene done in his person had bene necessarie In the meane time the Ministers confesse as they haue done often that the cause of the said myracles and the diuine power whence they proceeded abode in Iesus Christ As when hee healed the diseased which touched him and did the other myracles recyted in the Euangelicall Histories the which were done by him but not in him but in the person of them that weâ—â— healed And there is great difference betweene such myracles and those of his transfiguration and resurrection which were wrought by his onely power and in his proper person Vpon the importunate repetition which the Doctors make as well of the meanes of the birth of our Lord Iesus Christ as of the word Aphantos The Ministers for sparing of time and not troubling the readers send them back to their former answeres The Ministers much maruel that the Doctors to proue their pretended penetration of two bodies and of their measures wil ground their proofe and principal argument vpon the proper signification of the terme Penetrer For be it so that they will by this French word interpret the Greeke word Dierchestas or the Latine word Penetrare It shall bee euer impossible to proue their pretence And as it is also in the Acts of the Apostles Chap. 12. 10. It is said of the Angell and S. Peter that they passed the first and second watch And in S. Luke 4. 30. But they passed through the middest of them and departed And in S. Io. 4. 4. Now it behoued him to passe by Samaria In all which passages the Doctors shall not find that the word Dierchestai in the said passages alledged can bee any way applied to the penetration of dimensions And no more shall they proue that the word Penetrare which the old Translator hath vsed in the 2. Tymo 3. can be reduced to their said penetration The Ministers do adde that the Doctors ought not to hold it more straunge that Iesus Christ ascending into heauen in his finite and limited body an opening were made for his entrance therin then when he descendeth betweene the hands of the Priests singing their Masses For then as saith S. Gregorie the heauens do open to giue him passage Although after their imagination his body is then seperated from it measures and dimensions The Doctors should haue contented
maliciously oppose himselfe to the knowledge of the truth or which shall resist the same Against the merit of the bloud of Iesus Christ and passion of the Crosse in proper termes haue they written that had Iesus Christ onely dyed by the sorrowes of corporall death and by the sheading of his whole bloud he had nought done nor profited for our redemption if beeing on the Crosse hee had not endured in his soule the paines of the damned before his death and other horrible blasphemies contained in the atticle of the discent into hell The Ministers do also instruct their adherents that murther adultery robbery theft and euery crime whatsoeuer is but a veniall sinne to one predestinate who is neuer say they out of the fauour of God what thing soeuer he commit and do assure their faithfull and those of theyr Church to beleeue firmly that they are in grace and predestinate which is in plaine termes albeit the Ministers will otherwise excuse thē to giue leaue and license to commit all wickednesse and other articles which the Doctors will verifie where the matter shall require the same If the Ministers denie these points to be in their writings and published in their Sect the places of Caluins bookes which the Doctors noted in the Margin wil testifie the same To be briefe behold the glory of God and of his sonne Iesus Christ wherevnto tend the Ministers by the rooting out of the pretended impieties mentioned in many articles of their last resolution For briefe answere wherevnto the Doctors doo say that some things by slaunder of the Ministers are falsly imputed to the Catholique Church that others are expressed in the holy scripture and others drawne from the same and confirmed by the traditions of the Apostles and the vniuersall consent of the first Christian church the deceits excepted which the Ministers adde in euery article And so shall it bee shewed and proued at the least in time and place if the Ministers haue patience to handle in it ranke euery difficultiie but if to make their doctrine confused they persist to mingle all together the Doctors do protest to mocke therat without answere Moreouer the Ministers in generall doo rightly attribute to the power of God and say well that the certaine knowledge thereof is to be taken by the scriptures which hath bene alwaies auouched to them by the Doctors Very well say they also that it is infinite and incomprehensible But when they come to particularities and to shew wherein the omnipotencie lieth and consisteth then forget they holy scriptures and without them do measure the same according to the wisdome and eternall wil of God according to the order established in the world and as though they remembred no more that such power were infinit they tie it to the conditiō proprietie natural order of creatures As though to make something against or aboue the order condition natural proprietie of the creatures were a thing repugnant to the wisedome nature and wil of God Behold the short resolutiō which the Doctors can gather of the Ministers opinion touching the omnipotencie of God which shall appeare by their writings and answeres giuen to the said Doctors And as touching S. Augustine which they produce for them he hath bene answered heretofore The Doctors refer them to their writings cōcerning that which the Ministers do falsly tax thē to hold as a sufficient argument to infer some matter to be done of God to shewe that he hath power to do it The resolutions and obiections of the Doctors do plainly containe the contrarie The Doctors are also falsly accused by the Ministers as if they had affirmed the faith wholly contrary to nature Who haue onely said that the contradiction ordinarily made to faith founded vpon the word commeth from the consideration of naturall things against the power of God Concerning Abrahā the scripture in Genesis alwaies proposeth that he his wife made some difficultie touching the promise of God And cōsidered Corpus suū emortuū mortuā vuluā Sarae His owne dead body the dead wombe of Sarah vntil he heard the assurance of the omnipotēcie And S. Paul sufficiently declareth the speech of Abraham from his first vocation vntil after such assurance without putting distinction in the Historie of that which was before or after such assurance as is that which the Apostle saith that he cōsidered not Corpus suū emortuū his owne dead body but rested vpon the assurance of the almightinesse of the promise made vnto him The Doctors say they haue better concluded according to the faith we ought to haue of the power of God to make one bodie in diuers places then the Ministers haue done which haue not any word of God to settle theyr faith vpō to beleeue that God could not do it or that it repugneth the wisedome prouidence and eternall vertue or the humanitie of Iesus Christ yea the nature of a simple bodie only But concerning all that the Ministers do trust in their owne presumption and particular reuelation without one onely passage of scripture wherevpon they might stay theyr opinion Contrariwise haue the Doctors founded their faith not on the power of God onely to make one body in diuers places but to beleeue the deed and that God hath so willed on the holy scripture as in theyr Resolution is contained with the passages of auncient Fathers which they to this end haue alledged Which are so plaine that the Ministers cannot iustly but affirme the same And their starting holes shall be cōuinced by the simple reading of the bookes For all the rest of the Ministers resolution where are mightie iniuries Impostures and slanders against the Doctors they answere nothing hauing regard to the Ministers manner of dealing And the Doctors also do well vnderstand that it should be lost labour to teach the Ministers who more esteem their owne particular reuelation for their whole instruction then all the doctrine and remonstrance of the Church vniuersall and all Christians together And freely do the Doctors pardon all the iniuries they haue done them as people voyd of sound sence and without iudgement which thing they declare by theyr maner of dealing An obiection of the Supper by the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers WHy the Doctors in the beginning of the conferences haue not touched the Article of the Supper it sufficiently appeareth by the first dayes Acts. And a deceit it is which the Ministers haue done in taxing them to haue recoyled from entering into that matter For it shall be proued as well by the offers which the Doctors haue often made to confer by word for quicker dispatch of the said matter and then at more leisure to put it in writing which the Ministers haue refused as also by the first obiections which the Doctors proposed touching the article of Gods omnipotencie wherby they touched the foundations vpon which are builded the errors of the pretended reformed religion against
the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament And shall moreouer be verified in that the Doctors haue obiected to the Ministers some arguments against their Supper to make them enter into the same Vnto which they haue nothing answered or so impertinently at the least as one may iudge by the reading of their answere that they fled the Lists as yet also they do by their last writing hiding as much as they possibly can what they thinke of the Supper albeit they haue bene admonished to answere therevnto plainely and to purpose Whether the Doctors or the Ministers retyre shall bee seene by effect For albeit the Ministers will not answer the Doctors will not leaue to aduise them thereof and to manifest to all the world the intollerable errors which bee in the Supper and in all the doctrine of the Ministers Who beeing demaunded dare not confesse and auouch by writing what hath beene written by the inuenters of theyr Supper Now to begin to speake thereof the Ministrrs do maintaine it to be celebrated according to the ordinances of Iesus Christ and after the fashion which the Apostles vsed and all the Primitiue Church whiles it flourished and abode in it puritie Wherevpon the Doctors demaund how long the Ministers esteeme the doctrine of the Supper to abide in it puritie And whether the Church were not then as pure in the doctrine of all the other articles as of this Furthermore whether since that time there is not some place in the world where the true doctrine of the Supper and of other Articles haue beene retained and conserued and whether such doctrine hath euer continued without interruption and in what place and by whom hath it bene preached and set forth and from age to age The Doctors desire the Ministers to make declaration thereof for that it much importeth For as much as before Caluin put forth his Catechisme there was no memorie that such doctrine as he taught had bene held in any Region and the Supper was not celebrated after the fashion and maner as it is celebrated in the Church called Reformed The Doctors would willingly cheare vp the Ministers who are much disquieted in their writing because the Doctors haue said that their Supper differeth not from a common banquet except in that it is worse as being prophane and polluted To meete wherwithall the Ministers haue made a great narration of the whole action of their Supper and by faire shewes which haue a forme of all godlinesse they endeuour to make it very commendable and to couer a new nothing betweene two platters And contrariwise that they may tread vnder foote and abase the thrise precious sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Masse by renting in peeces some shewe of him as if they were vsed without reason or signification which the Ministers vnderstand not or make semblance not to vnderstand But things ought not to be prised and esteemed by their shewes but according to their value nature and truth Moreouer the Ministers should foresee that all the Sects which bee now in the world against the Church Catholique for the act of the holy Sacrament doo vse at the least as faire shewe as they And were they thereof asked there is not any which would not enforce himselfe to proue that it approacheth nearer to Iesus Christ and his Apostles and the Primitiue Church then the pretended reformed Religion dooth Concerning all which the Doctors referre them to the writings of the Lutherans Zuinglianists Anabaptists Trinitaries Maister Alasco and such like For vnreasonable it is by such faire deceits to preferre the Supper of the Ministers to other Sects to iudge it good holy vnpolluted and according to the word of God but to repute it rather polluted and defiled with impietie for as much as it cloaketh a lye in stead of truth and giueth the shewe of pietie to impietie and falshood Also the Doctors haue not dispraised the Supper of the Ministers for the praises therein giuen to God or for the confession they there make of their sinnes or the preaching if it contained the truth or for other preparation But therefore did they say it was detestable because against the ordinance of Iesus Christ it contained not but common bread and wine and yet that they attributed vnto it some spirituall effect and other faire pretext of godlinesse The which is an abhominable thing and inuentiō of Sathan who endeuoureth by such maner of Supper to abolish and extinguish the true Supper according to the institution of Iesus Christ and to depriue the faithfull of the fruite and veritie of the same Supper in causing them to giue common bread onely instead of the body and blood of our sauiour Iesus Christ The Doctors could as well recyte the euill shewes as the Ministers do recyte the good which be in their Supper as the secrets the new enterprises practised vnder colour and shadow of assemblies made in their said Supper But to the ende the Ministers reproach not the Doctors that Priests spake of armes of contributions c. they passe it ouer with silence and referre them to the thing it self and wil content themselues to declare some causes whereby they maintaine that there is no truth in the same Supper according to the institution of Iesus Christ which are such as follow That in the Supper of the Ministers and theyr like no consecration can be made of the matter of bread wine which are there proposed And that for this cause there is not in the same matter any change made be it before or in or after the vse And by consequence that the bread and wine in such a Supper cannot be but common That no consideratiō is made in their Supper hereby appeareth first that it belongeth not to all persons to consecrate bread and wine in the Supper but onely to those that by imposition of the Pastors and Bishops hands are lawfully ordained according to the succession from the Apostles time euen vnto vs. Now certaine it is that the most part of the Ministers of the Church called Reformed be not ordained by the laying on of the Pastors hands who haue the power by succession frō one to an other since the Apostles Whereof we must conclude that such Ministers vsurping the office which pertaineth not to them cannot make any consecration and giue not by consequence but common bread and wine Which article shall be spoken of when we shall entreat of the sacrifice and Priesthood Secondly to make consecration of the bread and wine it sufficeth not that the person be fit to consecrate the matter but also it is necessary that the lawfull Minister by a certaine meane do make the consecration to wit by blessing and pronouncing of certaine words ouer the matter proposed euen as Iesus Christ hath first obserued it And because the Ministers albeit they were lawfully ordained and that they had authoritie and power to
consecrate vse not the blessing and pronuntiation of certaine words ouer the bread and wine withstanding that which Iesus Christ first did and then ordained to his Apostles and their successors so to doo they cannot take any consecration of the bread and wine and that in them any chaunge happeneth Whereof it followeth that they differ not from common bread and wine and that such a feast and banquet is but common And that it is blasphemy to attribute vnto it the name of Christs Supper Behold why partly the Doctors haue said that the Supper of the Ministers is a prophane and polluted banquet The Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere to purpose and plainely to the demaunds by them proposed which they haue not done which is the cause that the Doctors least they should trauell in vaine haue not yet willed to impugne their answere summoning them eftsoones to answere what is proposed to them without drawing backe from the Conference which they say they affect so greatly The first demaunde was generall for all the Sacraments to wit whether the Ministers did beleeue that two things were essentiall and necessary to the confection of the Sacrament namely the matter or element and the word The Ministers answere that the Sacrament in it perfection considered consisteth in three things c. They speake indeterminately so that one cannot iudge whether they vnderstand theyr saying of the Sacrament which they call the Supper onely or generally of all as they were demaunded Although because they alledge Ireneus one may coniecture that they meant but of the Sament of the Supper Moreouer it behoueth to note that which they adde in it perfection considered to haue alwaies a starting hole when speech shall be made of the essence of the Sacrament The Doctors require that the Ministers answere to the question proposed generally of all the Sacraments For there is lyke reason as touching the essence of the Sacraments in generall And that they openly declare what things be essentiall and necessary to a Sacrament to be made a Sacrament without speaking for the present of the perfection of a Sacrament containing the essence and spirituall fruites which be not of the essence of the Sacracrament To the second demaund the Ministers answere no more pertinently then to the first And namely where the Doctors haue demaunded whether it behooued to vse certaine words for the confection of a Sacrament and what word was necessary for the Sacrament of the Supper The Ministers haue sayd that the lowe and secret speaking of certaine words addressed to the elements was not the word necessary to the confection of a Sacrament But they demaunded not whether it behooued to pronounce that word with a lowe or high voyce but the Interrogatory was whether there be any words necessary to make the Sacrament that one ought to pronounce ouer the matter or in administring the matter and that they might be such words for the Supper And it is not sufficient to say that the word by which the ordinance of Iesus Christ is declared is the word of the Sacrament but it behoueth to answere in what words consisteth that word and when it must be pronounced As touching the sixt and principall demaund the Ministers answere not clearly and to purpose but make a captious answere by which one may conceiue what is their opinion of the presence participatioÌ„ of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper And so temper they their saying that there is no Zuinglian nor Almanists which confesseth not thereof as much or more then they To wit that they are conioyned to our Lord Iesus Christ that they possesse him in the power of their faith and by the operation of his holy spirite to be made flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones c. But this is farre off from the demaund to wit whether the faithfull in the Supper receiue into theyr soules besides all the graces spirituall among which is the communication with our Lord Iesus Christ his true bodie and blood really truly and substantially And whether the Ministers in the Supper make not distinction of the substance contained and perceiued in the Sacrament with the fruites thereof proceeding And for more breuitie the Doctors demaund whether the Ministers do receiue and approoue that which Caluin hath written of the Supper and of that they receiue thereof in his Catechisme Institution and other bookes As touching the seauenth demaund the Ministers haue not vnderstood what hath beene proposed to them touching the Concomitance For they haue taken it as if one demaunded whether it were lawfull to receiue the Sacrament vnder one onely kinde or no. Whiche was not as then put in question But suche a difficultie was proposed to them namely whether in theyr Supper when one hath receiued the bread before hee receiue the wine he do participate of the true body of Iesus Christ without hee be partaker of his bloud vntill hee haue taken the wine or hauing eaten the bread whether he hath receiued the body and bloud before he take the Cup To which demaunds to auoyd vaine blotting of paper the Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere without wandering and to render open confession of their faith And that the Doctors may knowe what doctrine they ought to impugne or approue As touching the articles of the Masse the Doctors reserue them to their proper place which is of the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ After it shal be knowne and proued that they be present in the Supper and holy Sacrament The fourth of August the yeare aboue said The Ministers answere to the writing of the Doctors sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois the morning being 7. of August 1566. THe Ministers leauing aside whatsoeuer is superfluous and from the purpose in the writing of the Doctors as be theyr repetitions and reheaâ—salls dissembling also their iniuries and accustomed scoffings by which they much more proue the hate they beare to the truth and the Ministers then the questions by them propounded will onely stay on the points which seeme to require some answere The Ministers first say that they taxed not the Doctors to haue restrained the Church in a certaine place but to a certaine company and to the traditions giuen followed and by the same approued And they magnifie God that the Doctors doo now acknowledge the Catholique Church to stretch through the world and that it is not inclosed in the boundes and limits of the authoritie and traditions of the Romane Church which the Ministers confesse to haue beene then much esteemed of the auncient Fathers when errours abuses and vices did not as yet there abounde as since they doo But now that all things almost are there corrupted as well in manners as in doctrine and that nothing is there more odious then the word the light the trueth and the power of God The Ministers do say that as the state of the same Church hath
and proued to the expense of their bloud and losse of their liues So that the King and his Councell by his Edict hath declared them to haue bene very faithfull and well affected subiects to his Maiestie And wee must not maruell if the Doctors thus slaunder the reformed Churches for as much as the Christians in all times haue bin accused of like crimes by the enemies of the truth As it appeareth by the Apologie of Tertullian the booke of S. Augustine de Ciâ—itate Dei by the Tract of Saint Ciprian against Demetrius and by the booke of Arnobius which he wrote against the Gentiles But the Ministers much maruell how the Doctors are so ill aduised to alledge the suppers celebrated in the reformed Churches to verifie their accusations seeing that the same at this day being throughout publikely done in the eyes and presence of them that will behold them there is nothing therein hidden and whereof each one if he will may not easily be informed But this is the zeale and great charitie of my Lords our maisters whereof they haue heretofore protested that by inuocatioÌ„ of Gods name which so transporteth them to slaunder without shame or shewe those whose iustice in that matter shall answere for them before God and men Touching that which the Doctors â—â—erwards say that in the Supper of the Ministers no consecration is made of the matter of bread wine which be there proposed The Ministers do confesse that the bread and wine which be truly in their Supper are not consecrated in sort as the Doctors pretend to consecrate them in their Masse For so they approue not such a consecration But yet do they maintaine that there is in their Supper consecration of the matters aforesaid in sort as they in their articles and resolution haue heretofore very largely declared The Doctors for proofe and confirmation of that aforesaid do adde that it belongeth not to all persons indifferently to consecrate the matter of the Sacraments but to them onely which are ordained by the laying on of hands of the Romane Bishops wherevnto the Ministers for answer say that the first point they confesse and also as else-where they haue said that calling is necessarie to such a purpose But they denie vnto the Doctors notwithstanding that this calling is the imposition which they pretend and the Ministers assure themselues that their calling is more lawful and better founded then is that of the Doctors Whereas the Doctors propose in the article following that the Ministers haue not answered them clearly enough to their liking touching the parts of the Sacrament and of the word required for the consecration of the matter which therein is The Ministers answere that there is no doubtfulnesse obscuritie nor any inuolution in their writings sauing that which the Doctors will finde therein the iudgement whereof the Ministers referre to the vpright readers And yet they hold it not more straunge that the Doctors finde their writings obscure then did Saint Paul that his Gospell was hidden and couert to them which perished And in whome the God of this world had blinded the mindes To that of the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper for which the Doctors require of the Ministers a more large declaration then that they haue giuen in theyr former answere The Ministers say that they haue theâ—evnto clearly answered albeit the Doctorâ— bee not satisfied with their 〈◊〉 whereat they nothing wonder knowing well it is not theyr custome to be contented if one yeeld not to them what they demaund and desire Which the Ministers haue not determined to do much lesse to exceed in their answer the limits and bounds of the scripture be it in this article of the Supper or in others but rather to follow as neare as possibly they can the phrase and maner of speaking of the same By means whereof for full answere the Ministers acknowledge no other eating of the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christ bee it in the Supper or out of the Supper sauing that which Iesus Christ himselfe declareth in the sixt Chapter of Saint Iohn Whosoeuer eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud hath eternall life Also He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud dweâ—leth in me and I in him Also As the liuing Father hath sent me so liue I by the Father And he that eateth me euen he shall liue by me To the last Article which is of Concomitance the Ministers answere that the demaund of the Doctors was not so hard but that they had well conceiued it But they dissembled the same because they would not loose time to speake and write of such dreames And they well thought that the Doctors were subtill inough to vnderstand that in their denying Transubstantiation it was not to proâ—e their Concomitance Now for their satisfaction they adde that they will know no more then that which Iesus Christ himselfe hath taught in his word That is to say that in the Supper to participate in his flesh crucified and bloud shead for the remission of sinnes it behoueth to take and eate the bread drinke the wine which be administred without any way diuiding or seperating the same Which thing is also forbidden by the Canons De Consecr Dist 2. C. CuÌ„ omne Crimen Finished on Wednesday the 14. of August in the yeare aforesaid This writing being sent the Ministers went shortly after towards my Lord of Neuers to shew vnto him that they for theyr part had largely treated of this matter but they well perceiued that the Doctors by theyr friuolous and impertinent questions hitherto sought not but to passe away the time without ought doing in the decyding of the Supper and of the Masse And albeit they fayned that such demaunds did serue for a preparatiue to this dispute yet was it to no other end but not to enter thereinto at all and to hold things in suspence vntill length of time should begin to be troublesome and by that meane all should break off That his lyking might be to make the Doctors vnderstand that without turning this or that way they should come to end the difference refuting that which the Ministers had maintained of the Supper and supporting that which they had condemned in theyr Masse Which thing he promised them to do Of which promise began the Ministers to hope thence forward for some profitable matter and seruing to the edification of the Readers and rooting out of the greatest abuse and error that is in the Romane Church Neuerthelesse shortly after was it bruted through the Citie that Doctor Vigor was fallen into a very daungerous disease and wherof was no hope he should hastâ—ly recouer which made the Ministers feare that they were frustrate of theyr hope And yet more did they feare when they vnderstood that the Doctor de Sainctes was the same time departed from Paris and gone towards Monsieur the Cardinal of Lorraine For they could not otherwise presume but that they
2. vnder the name of Oyntment and in many other places Obiection The places heere-aboue alledged make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all to iudge of the doctrine otherwise euen women and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine as the Prophets and Apostles To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth Nunquid omnes Prophetae c. Are all Prophets hee putteth downe expresly that the discerning of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull but particular to some Answere The consequence which the Doctors gather is nothing worth forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others And some also are better exercised in the Scripture then others Touching the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say It maketh nothing against them forasmuch as the Spirit of prophecâ—e and the spirit of discretion are different gifts as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter The second dayes Dispute beeing Wednesday the tenth of Iuly THE Doctors required that their protestations the day before made might be registred which was such That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church from the Apostles time hitherto decided and determined by holy Eâ—umenicall and generall Councells holding them for certaine and indubitable and that all doctrine to the contrary was false But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and Madam de Buillon his daughter they were ready to make knowne by the verey exâ—resse word of God interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells that their doctrine wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed is sound and wholesome And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie is perniâ—ious and damnable And that this Conference is by way of instruction and not of Dispute The Ministers likewise protested that they assembled not with the Doctors for any doubt they had that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessioÌ„ of faith is not certain and true and founded vpon the word of God as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession And doo beleeue that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto is damnable and to be reiected yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it And as touching themselues they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine then such as they follow and haue learned of Iesus Christ whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church It was declared by my Lord of Neuers that he desired after the obiections and answeres there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other of that was conferred of the day before Following which remonstrance the Doctors say that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall from one Apocrypha or Ecclesiasticall a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion or priuate and particular inspiration for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall And also that God albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation yet hath he ordained a certaine meane whereby faith is obtained which is a reuealed truth that is to say by hearing of the word of God preached by lawfull Ministers sent by the Pastors of the true Church as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes 4. appeareth If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same according to the ordinary meane to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured that the word by which faith is obtained hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church And by consequence to be first assured of the church before his own inward reuelation following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church And contrariwise that euery pretended inward inspiration particular and priuate is a false perswasion if it bee different from the common consent of the Church For the spirite of God is not particular but common And say moreouer that to finde out a false doctrine it behoueth to examine the same to knowe whether it bee priuate or common euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn 8. saying Qui de se loquitur mendacium loquitur Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe and of his owne proper inspiration is a lyer And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man prophesie against the Prophets of Israel that prophesie and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit and haue seene nothing And afterward they haue seene vanitie and lying diuination saying The Lord saieth it and the Lord hath not sent them and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie And the verses following doo serue to the purpose Which false Prophets said they had an inward reuelation and the word of God They say also and let it be well wayed that the proppe of Religion grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration is the foundation of many Sects in our time as of Anabaptists and Suencfildians who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations and alledge the same texts to serue them for foundation of their doctrine which the Ministers yesterday alledged that is to say Ieremy in the third Chapter and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering haue confessed that by the onely tradition of the Church wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers as Saint Ierome who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church and by the same did knowe that there bee foure Gospels As much thereof saith Origen recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament saying I haue learned by tradition that there bee foure Gospels And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration And Saint Augustine Liber Confess cap. 25. vseth these wordes Veritas tua domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur