and grones were of faith it would minister matter without a booke but the matter of their prayer with sighes and grones is not ministred without a booke therefore it is not of faith to make this argument strong and sufficient from the connection of faith and the liuely efficacie thereof to vtter prayer yée must adde two things the one that faith is perfect vnto this efficacie to minister matter of praier and néedeth no helpe The other that the effect and power of faith to minister matter of prayer cannot stand nor be ioyned with any outward helpes Vnlesse I say yée adde these two with the cupling together faith and the effect which are both of them hereticall there can be no necessarie consequence To make it yet more manifest let it be drawne into an other forme of syllogysme thus That which hath power and efficacie of it selfe to minister matter of prayer néede not any outward helpe nor cannot touching the vtterance of matter in prayer stand with any outward helpe But faith hath force and efficacie in it selfe to minister matter of prayer Therefore faith néeds not the helpe of a booke nor cannot stand with any outward helpe touching the vtterance of matter in prayer And so consequently the sighes and grones in prayer red cannot be of faith This consequence shall neuer be brought in vnlesse yée frame your argument after that sort So that both these fantasticall errors be included in your spéech the one that faith touching the efficacie to minister matter of praier is so absolutely perfect that it néedeth no outward helpe the other that it cannot touching prayer stand with any outward helpe I doo acknowledge that there be no sighes nor grones nor any praiers that can be regarded of God but such as come from faith I doo also hold that faith is not in any without some efficacie and power to vtter some matter of praier But now we must consider the degrées thereof for doubtlesse if there were in men a perfection of knowledge of faith and of quicknesse there should néed no outward helpe but the best come farre short of that Such as approche néerest there vnto néed so much the lesse any outward helpe But the most are ignorant weake short of memory dull and slow and néed all helpes to stirre them vp and to direct them euen as children that are to be stayed vp and led by the hand Praier indéed is a spirituall worke procéeding from faith which is a spirituall gift but yet it doth stand with outward meanes and helpes The Holy-ghost alone dooth worke faith in man but yet it commeth by hearing Rom. 10 Faith bringeth foorth prayer but we must consider that as the same faith commeth by hearing and is grounded vpon the word so is it cherished supported increased continued and quickened in efficacie and made more forcible vnto euery good worke by those helps of outward meanes For further confirmation ye adde yea no doubt a troubled minde is the penne of a ready writer Let it stand in forme of syllogisme thus That which is the pen of a ready writer néedeth not the helpe of a booke But a troubled minde is the pen of a ready writer therefore it néedeth not the helpe of a Booke The proposition is true if by the pen of a ready writer yée vnderstand an absolute perfection of knowledge chéerefulnesse direction memorie and vtterance But that was not in Moses Daniel Paul or any other Therefore héere againe yée runne vpon the rocke of an hereticall opinion of perfection Your assumption where yée say no doubt a troubled minde is the pen of a ready writer is vtterly false and your bold affirmation without scripture is not enough séeing there be many so perplexed and confused in the trouble of their minde and oppressed with ignorance that they cannot pray nor know not what to vtter which when they haue instruction and consolation ministred vnto them by some godly man or if that chéefe help faile by reading vpon a booke poure foorth teares and supplications Your next reason is in many words which yet I will repeate To worship God say you in spirite is when the inward faith of the heart bringeth foorth true inuocation and it is then in truth when it simply agreeth with Gods word But you would teach men in steed of powring foorth theyr hearts to helpe themselues vpon a booke yea to fetch the cause of their sighing and sorrowing from an other mans writing euen in the time of their begging at Gods hand I will also drawe it into a syllogisme to the end it may the better be iudged of None worship God in spirite but they which from the inward faith of the heart bring foorth true inuocation that is such as simply agréeth with the word of God But all such as read vpon the booke the prayer which they pray fetch the cause of their sorrowing from an other mans writing in the time that they pray and doo not from the inward faith of the heart bring foorth true inuocation Therfore none that reade their praier vpon the booke doo worship God in spirit The proposition I assent vnto as sound and good for it is no true inuocation except it agrée with Gods word It is not to worship in spirit vnlesse it procéed from faith out of the heart But your assumption which is that all that reade the praier which they pray doo not from the inward faith of the heart bring foorth true inuocation I cannot allowe séeing yée bring nothing for proofe thereof but that which is most friuolous For whereas yée say in the first part of your confirmation that we would haue men in stéed of powring foorth theyr hearts to helpe themselues vpon a booke yée speake vntruly and foolishly For we wish men to vse the helpe of a booke that they may the better poure forth their hearts to God Being such as are not otherwise throughly able The next part of your confirmation is euen to as great purpose when yée say We would haue men fetch the cause of their sighing and sorrowing from an other mans writing euen in the time of their begging at Gods hand For how fondly doo yée make that to be the cause which dooth but manifest the cause for the cause of all sighing and sorrowing is the sinne and miserie which is within vs which we may the better behold and expresse by instruction I haue gréeuous sinne and wrath belonging therevnto which I doo partlye know and can make some moane therein and praye I come into the publike assembly where I heare the minister preach the word which dooth more fully laye open and display my sinne and misery I am héereby driuen into déeper sighing and sorrowing with vehement praier in my heart vnto God shall it be saide that I doo now fetch the cause of my sorrowing from an other mans spéech in the time of my begging at Gods hands If not then why should I be said to fetch the cause
and be no Christians it must néedes followe that such as did euer execute this power were Antichrists and no children of God at that time or before they repented But this is false euen by your owne confession which acknowledge that those woorthie seruants of God which sometime executed that power and after suffered death for the Gospell in the dayes of Quéene Mary were blessed Martyrs I conclude therefore that the Brownists can not but with heresies and most heinous iniurie and inordinate dealing condemne a Church as quite diuorced and separated from Christ for such imperfections and corruptions in Gods worship as be not fundamentall nor destroy the substance for that wicked men come with the godly to the publike exercises of religion for some wants in calling and ordeyning Ministers and in Ecclesiasticall discipline Article 1. The Brow We seeke aboue all things the peace and protection of the most high and the kingdome of Christ our Lord. G. G. The first Article is that which all true Christians doo séeke indéede But the kingdome of Christ or the kingdome of God as Christ sayth is within men it consisteth in righteousnesse and peace and ioy of the holy Ghost For the preseruation of this Christ hath ordeyned a Church gouernment They sinne against God which doo not couet and according to theyr calling labour to haue so great a helpe But to transport the name of Christs kingdome which is chiefely Spirituall in the heart vnto this which is but a part and as though the kingdome of God could not be in any vnlesse they haue this so they doo not wilfully despise it I say is false and the contrary to be proued by the Scriptures The Brow Our Article beeing by you confessed to be the bounden dutie of all true Christians wee see not with what equitie you can in this manner cauill at our words or with what conscience you can misconstrue and constrayne them as you doo seeking thereby to retract by sleight what you can not gaynesay in truth and taking occasion to contende about wordes namely the kingdome of Christ you make it only inward and vse Christ like one of the Phisitions Planetarie Signes assigning to him in hypocrisie your heart and soule to rule whilest in the meane whyle you yeeld your bodyes and whole assemblyes to the obedience and rule of Antichrist making no conscience to obey his lawes openly and to transgresse Christes thinking belike Christs kingdome so inward and spirituall as that he requireth no bodily nor outwarde obedience or because it consisteth in righteousnes and peace and ioy of the holy Ghost that there may be peace without righteousnes or ioy without peace or inward righteousnes where is such outward disobedience and wilfull transgression c. G. G. I did confesse and doo still acknowledge that this fyrst Article is that which all true Christians should séeke I hold that Christes Kingdome is chiefely inwarde and Spirituall and that the discipline is but a part thereof your selues haue repeated my words and yet charge me that I make Christes Kingdome only inwarde assigning the Soule to him and the body to Antichrist to be ruled I can not but wonder at your boldnesse in lying You say that to discusse how farre euery Christians calling and duty extendeth héerein were to dismisse all mine answers and to plucke away the mantle of shame wherewith we couer our nakednesse negligence and abhominations I meruaile why ye doo not then discusse it for we hold that no man is to labour beyond his calling to reforme any thing amisse in the Church and when it shall be declared vnto what bounds and limits the calling of priuate men is restrayned I am sure there will be no mantle nor ragge to couer the presumptuous dealing of Brownists which intrude themselues without calling Yée let this thing passe therefore and will only aske two questions The first is whether any which haue their calling of Antichrist be his marked Ministers and waged seruants can truly and vprightly couet and labour for Christs sincere gouernment which is his whippe wherewith he scourgeth out all théeues intruders and idle bellies out of his house The other question is whether to remayne wittingly and seruilely in the bondage and yoake of Antichrist xxix yeares be to labour for the gouernment of Christ faithfully in our callings Ye must graunt me some time to answer to these two questions and that shalbe when you answer these two which I propound The first is whether ignorant hereticall and rash Scismatikes be méete and competent Iudges to condemne all the learned Ministers in a Kingdome The other is whether false and lying accusations be to stand for due proofe Ye séeme to graunt that the Kingdome of God may be in the scattered faithfull which yet haue not the discipline I did not charge ye with the contrarie but only shewed how I did allowe the Article Yet remember what ye doo hold in this place Article 2. The Brow We seeke and purpose to worship God aright according as he hath commaunded in his word G. G. This second Article ought all men that will please God to approoue The Brow This article say you ought all that will please God to approoue How then seeke you to please God which continue in idolatrie and are a minister thereof which prophecie in Baal and plead for Baal or how approoue you it when yee condemne vs of schisme and heresie because we forsake your false and Antichristian worship and seeke to worship Christ according to his word G. G. When yée haue prooued that our worship is Idolatrie and that we prophesie in Baal and for Baal let men take yée to be no schismatikes nor heretikes But such as boast that they séeke to worship God according to his word and yet arrogantlye breake sundrye speciall rules thereof cannot but in their vaine bosting be liers as S. Iames saith against the truth Article 3. The Brow We seeke the fellowship and communion of his faithfull and obedient seruants And together with them to enter couenant with the Lord and by direction of his spirite to proceed to a godly free right choise of Ministers c. G. G. The third Article if it be taken in this sence that ye do set vp a societie seperated from all other within this land which make publike profession then I sée not when yée haue gone by your selues and set vp your officers howe you will cléere your selues from Donatisme If theirs were a damnable fact which God did accursse then take héed to yours For if it can be shewed that their heresies are not holden by you I will change my minde The Brow The words of our article being that we seeke the fellowship and communion of Christs faithfull and obedient seruants c. cleere vs of all schisme and heresie so farre forth so that if you would conuince vs of these crimes it had been expedient you had first prooued your assemblies as they generally stand by the euidence
A SHORT TREATISE against the Donatists of England whome we call Brownists Wherein by the Answeres vnto certayne Writings of theyrs diuers of their heresies are noted with sundry fantasticall opinions By George Giffard Minister of Gods holy Word in Maldon NON SOLO PANE VIVET HOMO Luke 4 Verbum Dei manet in aeternum AT LONDON Printed for Toby Cooke dwelling at the Tygers head in Paules Churchyard 1590. To the right Honourable Sir VVilliam Cecill Knight of the Garter Baron of Burghley Lorde high Treasurer of England and Chancelor of the Vniuersitie of Cambridge Grace and peace I Am right Honourable to excuse my selfe in two thinges the one that I take vpon me to write against the Brownists seeing there be so many great learned meÌ„ in our land which doo refraine the other that I doo offer so slender a peece of woorke vnto your Honour Touching the former the truth is I haue beene vnwares drawne vnto it not purposing any such matter For more then two yeares past there were brought vnto me certaine articles which the Brownists doo call A breefe sum of their profession with diuers arguments against read prayer They were brought vnto me by a Scholemaister in Essex who of a godly minde did desire mee to write my iudgement of the same which when I refused hee vrged me with this that diuerse of the people about them were troubled and did hang in suspense and for their sakes he did require it I did graunt his request and when they had my writings they were carried to the cheefe men of that sect Not long after I receiued large replies where I perceiued that which before I did not so much as dreame of namely that they had made chalenge and looked to be encountred by the learnedest in the land They take it greeuously and reprehend me as hauing intercepted this businesse and taken it from the hands of the learned Heerevpon I stayed long purposing to giue them but shorte answer to their chiefe matters But when I sawe that aduantage was taken as if I had receiued matters vnanswerable and that Brownisme did begin to spred in manye places of the land I thought it not amisse seeing the burthen thus to haue light vpon me though I be not able to deale so sufficiently as such a matter requireth yet to publish to the world some of their heresies and frantike opinions which are to be gathered from their writings I haue not set downe the whole discourse of wordes which hath passed betweene them and me for it would be somewhat tedious But if any shall thinke I haue passed any reasons of theirs vnanswered or wrested their words from the true sence to gather heresies let them shew any particular and I wil be able to cleere my selfe And let men consider whether the Brownisme can be supported by any pillers but those heresies which I haue noted I meddle not with the controuersies of our Church but deale by way of admission I neuer receyued the names of any subscribed to the writings I receiued and for that cause I do name none And now for the other point why I presume to offer it vnto your honour God hath giuen your honour to be an auncient graue Counsellor and which many yeares haue borne and still doo beare a great part of the waight of this our common-wealth vnder her right excellent Maiestie and for that cause I iudge it meete your Honor should see such things as any way touch the generall estate I trust therefore that although it be not for the slendernesse worthy to be offred to so honorable a person yet it shall be accepted in some sort And touching your Honor as I do not doubt of it but it shal be so I wish pray to God that you may be one of those of whome it is written Psal 92. The righteous shall flourish like a palme tree and shall growe like a Cedar in Lebanon Being planted in the house of the Lord they shall flourish in the Courtes of our God they shall still bring forth fruite in their age they shall be fat and flourishing to declare that the Lorde my rock is righteous and that there is none iniquitie in him Your Honors in all duty to commaund George Gyffard The Preface to the gentle Reader IT is a thing of great wonder to behold how God preserueth his Church from drowning and destruction in these greeuous times The Deuill is so full of wrath knowing his time is but short Reuel 12. v. 12. that he raiseth vp such tempests whiâ—le windes with such lightning and thunders with such outragious surges and waues as if heauen and earth should bee mixed together His cheefe Vassals the tyrants and Heretikes doo wonderfully bestirre them to effect his curssed desires By the one sort hee dooth breath out terror and as it were spit fire By the other he spueth vp deadlye poison and casteth his poisoned dartes He is so subtill that he transformeth himselfe into the likenesse of an Angell of light and his Ministers come in faire cloakes For behold all sortes of Heretikes and Schismatikes and yee shall see fewe of them come in the Deuils liuerie The Papists shrowde themselues vnder the name and title of the Catholike Church These cry out the fathers the fathers the auncient Fathers These proclaime vs and all Churches which haue forsaken their fellowship and imbraced the Gospell to be Schismatikes and Heretiks These affirme that we haue no word of God no Sacraments nor Ministrie because we be cut off from them These preuaile mightelie among the blind superstitious people who greedely drinke vp all the poison abhominations which the Deuill hath spued vp into that faire golden cuppe in which they offer them Reuel 17. which is that they be Catholikes There is risen vp among vs a blinde sect opposite to these which is so furious that it commeth like a raging tempest from a contrary coast so that our ship is tossed betweene contrary waues For these cry alowd that our assemblies be Romish idolatrous antichristian Synagogs That we worship the beast receiue his marke and stand vnder his yoake And finally that we haue no Ministery no word of God nor Sacraments These pretend such feruencie of zeale against all false worship superstition and Idolatrie and such loue to the discipline of Christ and crie so lowd that a man would thinke he heard the voice of Elias of Haggeus and of that third Angel Reu. 14. Downe with the Preests of Baal come out from among them worship not the beast arise arise build the Temple and altar of the Lord. With this counterfet voice the Deuill seduceth many and troubleth all such as are weake and yet haue zeale against false worship trembling for feare of pollution with this sect onely haue I now to deale First therfore touching their name we terme them Brownists as being the Disciples Scholers of Browne There be indeed new masters sprong vp which seeke to carrie awaye
Sabaoth yée graunt it was at their méeting to magnifie the praises of God many other Psalmes But yée demaund what this maketh for stinted leiturgies papisticall and erronious imposed c. I say it maketh nothing at all for that which is papisticall and erronious But it prooueth that all read praier is not idolatrie and that it is no stinting of the spirit to vse a prescript forme of praier These fantasies of yours are first confuted thereby Then next I argue thus If I may vse a whole praier of the scripture and no idolatrie then a praier that is composed by the rules of the scriptures may be vsed and no idolatrie You deny that the argument drawne from the vse of the Psalmes dooth follow because praiers composed by men are not equall to the Canonicall scripture and so shut out all praiers if yée marke well what yée say that are framed by the Preacher For let them be holy and good yet yée may not set them as equall with the Canonicall scriptures Againe yée deny the argument by affirming that singing of Psalmes was no part of praier but onely for instruction and meditation ye take vpon ye to prooue this a little after and when I come to that ye shall haue answer The Psalm 102. ye say was not a praier of the Church because it is said O Lord heare my prayer and not O Lord heare our prayer a poore shift when vsually the church speaketh of her selfe in the singular number Touching the blessing ye say that forme of words was not to tie them to vse those words but after that manner which is manifestly false Touching the orders of singers appointed by Dauid I alledged it to no such end as you séeme to drawe it vnto But that in singing the Psalmes they did read them vpon the booke Héer now ye do not onely deny that singing of psalmes was any part of praier but also ye will prooue it by the testimony of S. Paul to the Ephesians and to the Collofs where he exhorteth thē to speake vnto themselues in psalmes hymnes and spirituall songs It is a foule audacitie contrary to the manifest word of truth to affirme that the Psalmes were not sunge to God séeing that not onely the speeches be directed in a multitude of places vnto him but also the Holy-ghost doth call vpon men in this wise Sing vnto God sing a new song vnto him sing praises vnto the Lorde But beside this you go further for in both places by you cited ye leaue out the latter part of the sentence which is that they should sing vnto the Lorde with grace in their hearts Let the reader peruse the places and iudge what kinde of tricke this is It is most cléere that they did reade the Psalmes vpon the booke when they did sing them It is also out of controuersie that they did sing them to the Lord vnlesse we will deny the flat word of the Holy-ghost and also affirme that albeit the spéech be directed to God yet they did not in singing speake vnto him It cannot be denied but that many of the Psalmes be full of petitions Also praise is a part of prayer and a spirituall sacrifice this was offered vp to God in reading vpon the booke for it is saide Sing praises to the Lorde therefore I conclude that read prayer hath warrant by the word and the reading dooth not make it idolatrie or contrarie to spirituall praier Héere yée complaine againe that this argument dooth not follow because praiers composed by men are not to be matched with the Canonicall scriptures I haue answered this poore stale shift already that the praiers composed by men are no further lawfull then they be framed by the rules of Gods word for prayer Thus haue I not as you charge me laid aside the question to make new questions but haue disprooued that your olde question by shewing that reading the praier which is godly dooth not make it contrary vnto spirituall praier nor idolatry Argu. 3. We may not in the worship of God receiue any tradition which dooth bring our liberty into bondage Read Prayer vpon commaundement in the assemblies is a tradition that dooth bring our libertye into bondage Therefore read prayer c. To the assumption of this argument I answered at the first which I particularly rehearsed how can yée then with any shew of truth say my words import a deniall of the Antecedents assumption and all My words are these The third argument saith that the forme of praier is a bondage and breaking our libertie with c. The prooues which I bring do onely ouerthrow the assumption for I did and doo acknowledge the proposition which you say my words import a deniall of I would wish yée to vse more simplicitie I say it is vngodlye and néere vnto blasphemy to affirme that prescript forme of prayer is a tradition bringing our libertie into bondage and a changing the worke of the spirit into an idoll My reason was and is that the Lord by Moyses prescribed a forme of blessing which the Préests should vse Nomb. 6. The Prophets as in the Psalmes prescribed many formes of prayses and prayers to be vsed of the Church Our Sauiour Iesus Christ prescribed a forme and sayd when yée pray say Our Father c. If the verie reading or vsing the prescript forme commaunded were a bondage breaking Christian libertie or a changing the worke of the Spirit into an idoll then the Lord God Moyses the Prophets and our Sauiour Christ are charged with a great fault Your reply is with some roughnesse of spéech which I omitte because it is but your fashion But for proofe that read prayer is mans inuention and thrust vpon the Church by constraint ye say England knoweth by wofull experience There hath béene I graunt in the Church of England variance about some matters to be read which are commaunded in the Leiturgie but not about the commaunding a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed for therein our Church doth agrée with all godly Churches that a prescript forme of publike prayers is conuenient yea the reformed Churches haue and do practise the same Héere therefore I would wishe the Reader to obserue that you Brownists doe not only condemne the Church of England but all the reformed Churches whatsoeuer and can be none other but méere Donatists For héere in this your third argument ye affirme that prescript forme of prayer commaunded is the changing the worke of the spirit into an idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie and therefore most detestable In your fift Argument ye say it is a dead letter which doth quench the spirit But all reformed Churches doo by commaundement receyue and vse prescript forme of prayers Consider then what sentence yee haue giuen against all the visible Churches of our time and of former ages for it will come to passe that as the Donatists tooke themselues to be the only true Church in earth so must you
lesse ought they to take vpon them to set vp the whole frame You meane not to medle with reformation of the state but ye will erect a state and gouernment for is not the power of the Church both publike and great Ye will not daube the walles of Antichrist nor build Iericho no in déede ye are ouerprowd to be dawbers or to repaire ye will erect the Altar and build the Temple in Ierusalem such worthy men must haue a new building of their owne Thus may all men sée that ye confesse the lawe of God condemneth intrusion without lawfull calling and presumption aboue calling and yet ye take vppon ye being priuate and thrust forward other priuate men vnto the chiefe publike worke vnder the heauens but more of this in the next Article Article 5. The Brow We purpose by the assistance of the holy Ghost in this faith and order to leade our liues and for this faith and order to leaue our liues if such be the good will of our heauenly Father c. G. G. If men haue the truth it is good to stand vnto it to the death rather then to deny it as our Church in the same estate it is now in yéelded many blessed constant Martyrs But if a man haue not the truth it is great obstinacie to die for it as sundrie Anabaptists and other Heretikes haue shewed by theyr dying Euery true Christian will rather die then denie the discipline which Christ hath left but you must shewe that God commaundeth priuate men to set it vp The Brow The word of God and your owne mouth hauing approued our desires in these Articles we can not be moued with Satans old temptation to doubt of the Lords vndoubted truth or call his commaundements into question with if it be the truth c. Neyther can we be remoued with that old Popish reason ye bring of certayne blessed Martyrs that dyed in this estate your Church is now in This is not to approoue the state of your Church by Christes Testament which vntil you do though all the men in the world should both dye in it and for it yet could they not iustifie that God condemneth c. G. G. How the word of God and my mouth approoueth your most wicked intrusion without calling let euery wise man iudge Yee call it an old Popish reason that I bring of certayne blessed Martyrs which dyed in the state our Church is nowe in If you had no more frensie in yée then my reason hath Poperie it were much better for yée Let vs sée howe you or any Brownist is able to answere it That Churche which is of the Deuill and hath not the truth but is Antichristian can not bring foorth and nourish vp children to God But the Church of England in the estate it is now in brought foorth and nourished vp children to God séeing it yéelded many blessed and constant Martyrs Therefore the Church of England in the estate it is in hath the truth and is not a false and Antichristian Church When you haue shewed that a false Church can bring foorth and nourish vp true children to God yée may well saye that this is not to prooue our Church by Christes Testament If yee can not prooue that ceasse to cauill Yée denye them not to be blessed Martyrs but yee say that they dyed not in our Church nor for our Church Ye speake confidentlie but in the confirmation of your spéech yée shewe your selues most foolishe For yée say they dyed not in our Church béeing through Gods great mercie depriued and disgraded by theyr enemies All the Martyrs were depriued by theyr enemyes of theyr liues they could not depriue them of theyr faith nor of the truth which they had learned before from the mouthes of Gods Ministers in our Church What were they all disgraded of doo yée take it they were all members of the Synagog of Antichrist or stoode for any dignities or priuiledges in that fellowship vntyll theyr enemyes thrust them foorth Then yée say they dyed not for it but for the truth of Christ How will you separate things as contrarye which doo stand well together they dyed both for the truth of Christ and for our Church they constantly gaue testimonie to the truth and were content to indure any torments to confyrme theyr Bréethren in the same and therein may be sayd to dye for the Church I doo not meane that euery thing which they allowed must néedes be good for they had theyr errors and imperfections Neyther doo I reason after this sorte as though the Martyrs should dye for euery order and obseruation of our Church they dyed for the substance of that faith and woorship which our Church mayntayneth And as I sayd before you must prooue they were not begotten to God by our Church or else confesse our Church to bée the Spouse of Christ Doubtlesse if our Church did not bring them foorth and nursse them vp to God they were deceyued and departed out of the worlde such babes that they tooke a wrong woman for theyr Mother for they tooke our Church to be theyr Mother But you haue another Answere and that is that those Martyrs neuer resisted the truth béeing shewed them nor neuer yéelded vnto any yoake or corruption which God gaue them sight of contrarie to theyr consciences as yée say we doo in these dayes Then the difference will fall out betwéene them and vs that they offended of ignorance and stoode vnder Antichristes yoake yea some of them must be Antichrist himselfe in as much as they were Byshops and yet Gods true Church For yée say they were faithfull in that little light and wée offende of knowledge and therefore can not be the true Church Your confessing them faithful in that little light so Gods Church vnder the same gouernment we be which ye tearme Antichrists yoake doth quite ouerthrowe all Brownisme make what difference ye can betweene them and vs in truth yet shall it appeare that of necessitie graunt them to be the Church ye must confesse ours If ignorance excused them ignorance should excuse many among vs séeing there be multitudes in the land professing the Gospell that are perswaded we haue the truth and be in the right way both in doctrine and gouernment And againe ye are much deceiued if ye suppose that euery Christian man now hath so great vnderstanding as the chiefe of them had that suffered death in the dayes of Quéene Mary Would ye haue men beléeue that Browne himselfe and those Brownists which take themselues his equals haue greater light then eyther Ridley Cranmer Howper Bradford Philpot Taylor and other had when the learnedest in these dayes are not ashamed of those woorthie men but acknowledge them as excellent Diuines How absurd a thing is it that ignorant blinde Schismatikes full of fantasticall and hereticall opinions should boast of theyr great light in comparison of theirs Now we come to the last poynt of all and one of