later have seen before their eyes the mischief that followed vpō that declining which the other of former time neither did nor could Adde herevnto the great vnlikenes when they are compared together in their Offices Entrance Titles prerogatives Courts Canons Iurisdiction and other procedings And tell me why you left out Cyprian in your printed Book whō you named in your written copy for which cause I have now also noted his Name with the rest Is it so that you see alreadie how he is against you Assure your self Mr Iacob that so will the rest also be found lesse or more I alway except the Prelates of Rome whensoever due triall and comparison is made Which I neither need nor purpose here to stand vpon seing these things are purposely hādled and alreadie published by others well knowen and approved also of your selves as by Mr Beza against Saravia T. C. his 1. and 2. Reply The Demonstration c. I omit also that yours are become persecuters whereas the other were persecuted Therefore your sinne is far the greater And many other things I might alledge but it sufficeth vs and hereon we rest that your Prelacy and other Ministery Worship c. are none of Christs ordinances appointed in his word If you be other wise mynded prove it by the book of God Ioh. 17.17 Psa 119.105 Esa 8.20 You know that †it alone is the word of truth and ought to be vnto all the lāterne of our feet Hence forth therefore speak according to that word and seek not by the lesse sinnes of others to hide and nourish your owne far greater Otherwise remember and applie to your selves the judgement that is written Exod. 20.5 Ps 129.21 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 22 18.19 And note these things withall 1. First That here you speak of such as live and dy in your errors ignorantly Now what defence is this for your self Mr Iacob and for all the rest of your Church throughout the Land who do not onelie know these errors but have also taught professed and witnessed against them heretofore 2. Secondly that here you are glad to vse the same pretences as rusty weapons against the truth which were sometymes vsed by D. Whitgift and the Papists for defence of the Prelacy and found to be of no force at all 3. Thirdly that whatsoever you speak here in excuse of your conviction may be likewise alledged by the Papists and other Hereticks for defence of them selves viz that they are not all cōvicted sinne against their cōscience also that such and such points are not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one among them that many of them and not of the simplest hold their way to be the onely true and right course and almost all of them to be indifferent and lawfull very few and scarce any that see it to be meerly wicked and intolerable Yet these are the reasons and armour of proof you bring for defence of your Hierarchie and Church-estate And what should I speak of your manifold contradictions fearfull clauses notable vntruthes c. Your cōtradictions as when you graunt here Pag. 28. 61 This is your generall sinne and yet said before you held these to be Christs ordinances Your pretended excuse that you speak some things in your owne person some things in your Churches I have shewed before to be vayne and against your self Pag. 55. 56. 72. Another contradiction in that you professe the auncyent Bishops and yours have declyned viz from the truth and way of Christ or els tell vs in your next from what and yet plead as if your Church generally were eyther ignorant hereof or held your present governement to be the onely true and right kind or at least to be indifferent and lawfull c. For how I pray you can these stand together If you say your self know thus much but as for any others that know it they are very few and searse to be found these I take it are your owne words this is but a vaine conceit of your self and such as is still accompanied with folly There are no doubt a thousand to you who are but one that know these things aswell or better a great deale Yea I know manie of your Church my self who have taught and writtē far more soundly and godly of them then ever Mr Iacob did And if these had all held their peace yet your Book of common prayer as grosse as it is knoweth thus much ‡ In the Commination that in the Primitive Church there was a godly disclpline which it saith is much to be wished that it might be restored agayne The particular there mentioned I stand not vpon I note it onelie for this that you may see even by that book received among you generally how your Church neither is so ignorant of the estate of things in former tymes as you pretend neither thinketh your present government to be the onelie true kind c. Not to speak of your so manie and so publik suites to the Parliament to have it removed as being vnlawfull and Antichristian Neither of the many books printed with Priviledge avowching as much A third contradiction till you cleare it better note in this also that you acknowledge they in K. Edw. tyme were godly learned and yet insinuate withall as if they were litle better then tyme-servers Your fearfull clauses importing partlie a yeelding of the cause partly a seeking of starting holes and excuses for your sinne As when you say 1. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversity of sinnes 2. All sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ 3. This sinne of outward Church-orders is not of the most heynous nor extremest disobedience 4. There are sinnes wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved 5. No greater is now in our Bishops presently especially towching our Churches and Ministers too generally 6. If you say we are all convicted now it is false 7. The godly learned Protestants in King Edwards tyme were not vtterly ignorant of this poynt of reformation 8. The Iewes were not generally plainely convicted 9. Our Assemblyes are not all godles and profane Our sinne destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole Assemblyes c. As if your self thought it did in some Your notable vntruths also are many as when you alledge Mr Beza vpō Act. 15.20 as if he spake of such Iewes as did personally hate and persecute Christ where as he speaketh expressely of such as beleved in Christ but were withall zealous of the Law being not yet perswaded of the abolishment thereof Agayne when from him you would teach that they which did personally hate and persecute Christ yet were the true Church vntill the Temple and City were destroyed yea and saved though they repented it not Which is contrarie to these and many the like Scriptures Act. 2.40.47 and 13.45.46.50.51 and 19.8.9 1. Thes
the truth of God is with them become Yea and Nay so as they may seem to say any thing for defence of theyr Churches estate 5. And from whence proveth he that which here he speaketh of tvvo hy Priests at once c. Doth he shew it from the word of God No. But he saith the Historyes make mention of it So then from the Scriptures he can not bring proof for that he saith For indeed by them we fynd euen in the corruptest tymes but one at once to be by Priest Albeit that of old also there were two which were chief over all the rest the one being principall the other Second See for that of one hy Priest in such tymes these Scriptures Mat. 26.57.62.63.65 Mar. 14.53.60.61.63 Luk. 22.50.54 Ioh. 11.49 18.13.24 Act. 4.6 7.1 23.2 Heb. 5.1 8.3.4.5 And for the other poynt these 2 King 25.18 1 Chron. 24.2.3 2 Sam. 8.17 vvith Numb 3.32 4.16.18 Yea this is so cleare and certayne as for any thing written in the Scripture thereahout this man is driven himself when he looketh thither to confesse and confirme it too As here may be seen in Scriptures which himself hath noted downe 6. Why also doth he not name the Histories that mention these things together with the Persons time place and such like circumstances as might give light to the poynt in hand Is it because he would walk in the dark and hide the truth as much as he can Or is it for that he seeth if these particulars were mentioned there might yet more be answered concerning this matter 7. Finally what maner dealing is this when he knoweth that I have other were written of this very poynt yea and here alledgeth both the ♣ Ansvver to Mr H. Pa. 50 book and page yet not to aunswer any one of all the particulars which there I haue noted out of the Scripture towching this question To that Treatise therefore till it be aunswered â— may and do refer him in this behalf Next where he saith If the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through covetousnes it is not likely that the inferior offices remayned sound c. And It is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution vvere vvholy altered from the right institution c. First I wish the Reader to mynd his maner of reasoning A litle before he sayd he doubted not plainely to take avvay that vvhich vve obiect of theyr outvvard constitution Yet behold the yssue of his first and chiefest proof is all come to this It is not othervvise likely It is very likely c. Thus his playne demonstration if it fitted his turne yet is no other but a meer likelyhood and presumption And that also gathered from other writers not from the Scriptures Is not this theÌ„ think you as playne a taking away of our obiection as it is a sound defence of theyr Church-constitution Neyther barrell better herring But what now if by the Scriptures it be not onely likely but indeed certayne that it was otherwise with the Iewes then here he saith concerning theyr offices and outvvard constitution How hath he then plainely taken away our objection as he pretended Let him search therefore and he shall fynd that they were so farre from admitting any straung functions among them as they * Iohn 1 19-23 vrged Iohn the Baptist to shew warrant for his Ministery from the word of God And besides by theyr silence to Christs question about Iohns baptisme do plainely testify that ‡ Mat. 21.25 26. themselves judged no Ministery lawfull but that which is from heaven that is such onely as is of God not of Men. If here now we would vse his manner of reasoning how great likelyhoods might we justly alledge from these Scriptures to the contrary of that he sayth But to put the matter out of all doubt the Scripture witnesseth of Zachary Iohn Baptists father that he being then one of the Priests executed the Priests office and vvalked in in all the commandements ordinances of the Lord vvithout reproof Luk. 1.5.6.8.9 Which how could it possibly have ben if the offices and constitution of that Church had ben wholy altered as this man here pretendeth Note also that all the Priests then were of the tribe of Levi of the posterity of Aaron consecrated to their functions sitting in that seat which God by Moses had appointed for the Ministery and regiment of that Church Ioh. 1.19 Act. 4.6 Heb. 5.1.4 Mat. 23.2 vvith Deut. 33.4.8.10 Finally Christ himself giveth testimony to the lawfulnes of their Ministery and constitution when he said to the clensed Leper Go shevv thy self to the Priest and offer for thy clensing as Moses hath commaunded Luk. 5.14 By which is most playne that they had at that tyme both the true Ministery and ordinances which God by Moses had appoynted How false then must it needs be that this man saith their offices and outvvard constitution vveâ—e vvholy altered from the right institution But who is so bold aâ— blynd Bayard Of their true offices imported by sitting in Moses chayre I have * A treatise of the Man of England Pag. 54. 55. els where spoken and proved it by divers reasons and testimonyes out of the word of God To which D. B. can fynd no aunswer but yet is loth to yeeld to the truth Moses he sayth vvas a Magistrate What then Therefore Moses chayre must be vnderstood of somevvhat els But why so Doth he not know that Moses in that his governement of Israel even by the commaundement of God appoynted Aaron and his sonnes to the Priests office for the burning of incense before the Lord c. Wherevppon also when Corah and his company did afterward murmure aÌ„d presumed to take the Priests Office vpon them it is sayd they rose vp and gathered themselves together not onely against Aaron to whom it belonged but agaynst Moses also who from God had appoynted him and his sonnes therevnto Lev. 8. 9. chap. vvith Numb 16. 17. 18. chap. Note withall that Moses a litle before his death blessing the tribes of Israel when he had the heads of them assembled together spake thus of Levi turning his speach vnto God Let thy Thummim and thyne vrim be vvith thyne Holy one c. They shall teach Iacob thy judgements and Israel thy Lavv they shal put incense before thy face and the burnt offring vpon thyne altar c. Deut. 33.4.5.8.9.10.11 With which Scripture and speach of Moses if we compare that of Nehemiah where he speaketh of ♣ Neh. 9.3.4.5 c. the Levites stayre or hy seat and theyr standing vpon it vvhen they taught the Lavv c. And that of Christ where he sayd * Mat. 23.2.3 The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses chayre observe therefore vvhatsoever they speak c. And that of Iohn where he sayth ‡ Ioh. 1.19.24 the Pharisees vvich vvere sent to Iohn Baptist about his Ministery vvere Priests
Church of England be not off the the very same stampe with Mr Hookers for the Church of Rome Thus what by the Prelates and theyr Proctors on the one hand and these Pharisaicall dawbing Reformists on the other theyr case is come to be such as all may iustly feare least the end of that Church will be to look back not onely in part but euen wholy to the Romish Egypt and Sodom and to wallow agayne in the same myer from which they would seem aâ— this tyme to hâ—â—â—e â—en washed For it is just with God to make such eate the fruit of there owne way and to fill them with theyr owne devises Prov. 1.31 And what other thing do the books pretences practise and declining of all sorts both Ministers and people among them â—â—rtend Yet Lord thou God of power and Father of mercy work better things for them and among them if it be thy will To that which D. B. pretendeth next of keping communion vvith them in things lavvfull it being likewise objected by Mr Iacob I haue answered in the Treatise ensuing Pag. 88. 170. 171. 180. Here onely I aske First what one lawfull thing they have that we have not Secondly in what one thing which he counteth lawfull we can have communion with them in that estate and not sinne against God by partaking withall in the apostasy of the man of sinne Of all other things it is most like he will say that we might heare many comfortable truths taught by theyr Preachers and many good prayers conceyved by them Yet such is their case as we can not do this neyther but we must needs partake with the Ministery of Antichrist all theyr Preachers even the best being Priests and Deacons so made by the Prelates Of which see more in the latter Treatise following Pag. 188. c. Not to speak here any further of it or of theyr Book-worship taken out of the Popes Masse-book according to which they administer the Sacraments marry bury pray c. or of the compulsion of all maner people even the most wicked to be members of theyr Church or of theyr Church discipline being in the hands of the Prelates and by the Canon Law or finally of the severall offices entrance ministration maintenance of theyr whole Hierarchy To none of which can any joyne or submit in any part of Gods worship but they must needs partake in evill even in the sinnes of Babylon and of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Such is their constitution and such is the standing of all that continew therein Of his last pretence tovvching diversity of judgement by reason whereof he would perswade to keep communion with them I have spoken * In the Ansvver to Section 3. here a litle before To which now I will adde this onely that his collection herevpon viz. that we should therefore keep communion with the Ministery and confusion of Antichrist for of what els speaketh he if he speak to the poynt in question is most absurd and vngodly And will not Hooker think you for his Christian Papists and some such as Hadrianus for the Anabaptists perswade likewise And what then are we the nearer Or what will these men do in the end hereof Ier. 5.31 This then is not rightly to vse that diversity of judgement wherevnto in many things all Churches and Christians in deed are continually subiect here on earth but ignorantly to abuse it But herevnto it may be ‡ Da. Buck. this man was driven eyther by weaknes of iudgement in himself or by eagernes of contention and malice agaynst vs of whome he hath sometymes ben but now for his revolting from the truth and so persisting is according to the * 1 Cor. 5.4.5.11.12.13 1 Tim. 1.19.20 Mat. 18.17.18.20 Scriptures and ordinance of Christ cast out from among vs and delivered vnto Sathan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Which mercy the Lord Almighty vouchsafe him in Christ from whom he hath declined vnto Antichrist And this is all the harme I wish vnto him or any such even theyr repentance and salvation in Christ Iesus Hitherto of the Preface prefired to Mr Iacobs book Which I have answered somewhat largely from poynt to poynt rather for the satisfying of others then for any waight I judged to be in it my self Now it is tyme that I returne to Mr Iacob himself and deale with him in particular by whom I am spoken vnto and challenged by Name almost in every page of his book As if he had forgotten the old Proverbe which sayth Let not him boast himself that girdeth his harness as he that putteth it off Here then seing that this discourse came first from him to the view of the world and that also without my aunswer to his last Reply let the Reader call to mynd that which is written He that is first in his ovvne cause is iust then cometh his neighbour and maketh inquiry of him Prov. 18.17 So as he now having told his owne tale first and seming to some no doubt to be iust therein it is nedefull that I therefore come in the next place and make inquiry of him Which I do in the Treatise following submitting it now to the judgement of others to be examined of all by the word of God 1 Cor. 2 12-16 1 Thes 5.21 By it therefore do thou ChristiaÌ„ Reader try all things therein and keep that which is good Have no prejudice I pray thee eyther of Mr Iacob or my self but heare vs both speak and then consider what is spoken on eyther side from poynt to poynt And the Lord give thee vnderstanding in all things There is but one way of truth to life eternall And that is in no other but the Lord Iesus Christ Ioh. 14.6 who hath said I am the vvay the truth and the life If therefore the Churches of England as now they stand be in that good and old way prescribed by Christ wherein the Primitiue Churches were planted by the Apostles then doubtles then are in the way of truth that leadeth vnto life Yet this hath not Mr Iacob shewed in all his discourse Ier. 6.16 But now on the contrary if the Churches of England in theyr estate have in the Ioynes off the Church of Rome and with it departed from that auncyent and good way of Christ and do even vnto this day stand in the apostasy of Antichrist and that in theyr publik Ministery worship ordinances confusion of people c. then can they not so standing be assured by the word of God that they are in the way of truth which leadeth vnto life but in the by-wayes of errour which cary headlong to death and perdition 2 Thes 2.3.10.12 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Rev. 13.11 17.1.2 22.18.19 vvith Exod 20.4.5 For which cause all the people of God are bound to separate from them and not to partake in any of theyr sinnes least they receyve also of
Antichristian Hierarchy and a popish ordering of Ministers strange from the vvord of God and the vse of all vvel reformed Churches in the vvorld And further Although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth comprised in the booke of God Then touching the Sacraments thus they write The Sacraments are vvickedly mangled and prophaned Also In the primitive Churches they administred the Sacrament simply as they received it from the Lord vve sinfully mixed vvith mans inventions and devises Yea they charge the Prelates that they doe superstitiously and vvickedly institute a nevv Sacrament vvhich is proper to Christ onely marking the child in the forehead vvith a Crosse in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the faith of Christ And of your book of coÌ„mon prayer according to which your Sacraments and other divine service is administred thus also they write we must needes say that this book is an vnperfit book culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse book full of all abominations To conclude withall thus they testifie concerning these things controverted betweene them and the Prelates Neyther is the controversy betvvixt them and vs as they vvould beare the vvorld in hand for a cap a tippet or a surplus but for greater matters concerning a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church according to the vvord Which things once established the other melt away of theÌ„selues Being once established say they Therefore yet they did not account they had them And whereof speak they All may see of a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church Now speak your self Mr. Iacob Do not these men testifie to your face that you have avouched a bold and impudent vntruth wilfully striving against the cleare light Yet I have cited but a few and those onely out of the Admonitions to the Parliament Out of which and the rest of their writings I might alledge a thousand mo to convince you herein But that would be too tedious And these I doubt not will cleare the point and suffice any that are indifferent and godly minded For your self I say no more but wish you had not verified the Orators saying He that once passeth the bounds of modestie becomes impudent out of measure Hitherto of the first Exception Chap. 5. The second Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforesayd Fran. Iohnson SEcondly tell vs whether you hold and professe Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other And if you do then shew vs how your practise agreeth with this profession H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 2. Excep TO this second Exception That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King I aunswere The Booke of Articles our Ministers now and Congregations generally do hold and professe the same our practise being answerable likewise therevnto euen as before time Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and such like with their Congregations did then viz. That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King and to be obeyed in his owne ordinances onely in no other This I say we generally professe and practise Hovvbeit this note vvith all vve hold Christs ordinance to be of tvvo sorts writteÌ„ or vnwritteÌ„ the first necessary the secoÌ„d arbitrary The first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the invvard opinion only such as these The doctrine of God his Nature his Persons his Properties of the Messias Christ Iesus of Iustification of Sanctification of the ResurrectioÌ„ c. Wherein standeth the †1 Cor. 3.12.13 foundation of saving faith All these must be in the vvritten vvord or els to be none of Christes The second touching outvvard orders in the Church vvhich are truely called and counted Christes ovvne also although particularly deuised and appointed by the Church vvhom Christ hath authorised therevnto euen as it shall be thought most fit and profitable for the preseÌ„t times places and persons such vve hold all outvvard gouernement and ceremonies to be because they be not simply of the foundation neither written nor certen nor perpetuall but at the arbitrarie appointment of the Church and Magistrate and yet to be Christes ovvne neuerthelesse vvho hath left this libertie for the Church to vse Thus vve hold and thus vve practise and vve are persvvaded no Scripture to be against all this but rather for it I speak novv concerning our Ministers and Congregations generally that is our publique Church state If you say but there are divers amongst vs that thinke othervvise I aunsvver But this is the generall estate both of our Ministers and Churches hovvsoever one or tvvo amongst huÌ„dreths or thousands may thinke othervvise shevv the contrary if you can And our Churches they certenly must be deemed after their generall estate and constitution not as one or tvvo men thinke If you say this generall opinion and practise is an error Therfore they obey not Christs ordinances in truth herein though they thinke they do I aunsvver let it be so it is novv “ An error though not fundamentall the error of their iudgment as it vvas in Maister Cranmer Ridley c. Not pregnaunt rebellion and disobedience to Christ not a convicted or seared conscience so that their other “ 1 Cor. 3 1â—.15 truthes of the foundation are not frustrat nor Christ made to none effect in them And this is all our question whether they remaine Christians still for all these faultes yea or no. F. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Excep IN this Exception we demaunded first if you held Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other then how your practise agreeth with this profession One would have thought it had ben needfull if you could to have cleared this poinct by the Scriptures and from thence to have proved your Ministery worship Church gouernement c. which are called jn question to be no other then the Lord Iesus Christ that Prophet Priest and King of his Church hath in his Testament given and appointed therevnto But this you have not done And let the Reader note it But what then do you say First you tell vs That touching this poinct your profession and practise now is so as before time it vvas vvith M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer and their CoÌ„gregations But what of this Can the persons or age of these whom you name nay can any person or ages preiudice the truth Were not they subiect to error at all Or must their errors bind vs Did not Iohn Hus that champion of Christ and others also of the Martyrs in former times say and heare Masse even to their dying day See their historyes in the Acts and Monuments not seeing the abominations thereof And did not divers of them acknowledge some the Popes calling and Supremacy some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some
Auricular confession such like greeuous errors And yet notwithstāding dyed constantly for the truthes they saw some for one and some for another as God made manifest vnto them But may we now therefore so professe and practise in these things as they did Or if we should were their ignorance and errors a sufficient defence for vs Yet thus would you beare vs in hand Furthermore tell vs if M. Latimer and others did not forsake the Prelacy and functions they had before time received And Maister Ridley at his death repent that he had ben so earnest for the remnants of Popery in his time retained Besides who knoweth not that when M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. died Martyrs for the truth of Christ they neither had them selves nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for And not that onely but were members of that persecuted Church in Queene Maries dayes which was seperated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned in covenaunt by voluntary profession to obey the truth of Christ and to witnes against the abominations of Antichrist As they also did vnto death in the truth they saw though otherwise being but as it were in the twylight of the Gospell they had their wants and errors Yet who is so blind or besotted as not to see that their errors may not be our rules neither can be our warrant but rather that we ought after their example faithfully to stand in and for whatsoever trueth God revealeth vnto vs by his word And that otherwise those holy Martyrs shall rise in iudgment against all such as either withhould the trueth in vnrighteousnesse or in any respect refuse to walke therein Finally seeing GOD hath given vs “ Psal 119.105.128 Gal. 1.8.9 6.16 Deut. 12.32 Rev. 22.18.19.20 his vvord to be the light of our feete and rule of our liues and religion What meane you to lead vs from it to the aberrations of any men whatsoever Should not ‡ Esa 8.19 all people enquier at God or would you have vs go from the liuing to the dead From God and his word to men and their errors This doubtlesse is that wherevnto you would bring vs and whereby you mislead your favorites as will yet further appeare by that which followeth For what say you next Secondly you tell vs and wish it to be noted as we also do That Christes ordinances be of two sortes either written or vnwritten the first necessarie the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the inward opinion onely These say you are writtten The second touching outward orders in the Church and all outward governement and ceremonies These you say are not written but arbitrary at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate Thus you say you hold and practise and thinke no Scripture is against it For aunswer hereof First we aske what Scripture you have for it Secōdly we alledg against it these Scriptures and the like 1 Tim. 3.15 5. chap. 6.13.14 Tit. 1.5 c. Act. 1.3 2.40 c. 6. chap. 14.23 15. chap. 19.9 20.7.17.28 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Ephe. 4.11.12 1 Thes 5.12.13.14 Phil. 1.1.5 Heb. 3.1.2.3 13.17 Iam. 5.14 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3.4 1 Cor. 4.17 5. ◠11. 12. 14. Chap. and 16.1.2 Gal. 6.1.6 2 Thes 3.6.12.14.15 Mat. 18.15.16.17 28.18.19.20 Thirdly let it be observed that your self here graunt and cannot deny but all the outvvard gouernement and ceremonies of your Church are invented and arbitrary at the pleasure of man and not vvritten in the vvord of God Wherevpon it followeth that they are none of Christes and therefore not to be ioyned to at all Fourthly see how neare you are driven that are glad to run back into the Papists tentes where yet you know there is no succour Before you pleaded possession time out of mind now you tell vs of ordināces vnwritten c. Are not these meere popish shiftes even the old worne arguments of Antiquity and Vnvvritten verities so often and so much stood vpon by the Papists Alas that you should plead to be true Christians and yet thus openly take part with Antichrist What shall we say to these things Surely God is iust and wil verifie his word That they which receiue not the loue of the trueth 2 Thes 2.10.11.12 that they may be saued he vvill send them strong delusion to beleeue lyes that they may be damned Fifthly you make the ordinances touching outward gouernement and ceremonies to be no matters of faith neither vvritten at all This is very strange divinity And thus I shew it It is an ordinance not only concerning the inward but also the outward governemēt of the Church that Christ is Lord and King thereof Is it therefore no matter of faith It concerneth the outward governemēt vvhether the Pope be vnder Christ head of the Church or no Doth it not therefore concerne faith Publique prayer preaching of the vvord and hearing of it preached administration and receiuing of the Sacraments are matters cōcerning the outward gouernement and orders of the Church Doe they not therefore touch fayth Admonition and excommunication concerne also the outward governement of the Church Do they not therefore concerne faith Finally by this Divinitie the Sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper being Ceremonies shall with you be no matters of faith at all Yet here you stay not but adde moreover That the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church be arbitrarie at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate not vvritten nor certaine c. Wherevpon it followeth that it is not certen nor taught in the Scriptures but arbitrarie at the Churches and Magistrates pleasure Whether Christ or the Pope of Rome or Canterbury be head and Archbishop of the Church of God 2. Whether Iewes onely of the Tribe of Leui may now minister the holy things of God in his Church 3. Whether Christ hath given any giftes and set any Offices in his Church for the Ministery and guidance thereof 4. Whether prayer must be in a knowen or vnknowen toung 5. Whether the teaching and ruling Elders be to be had and honored 6. Whether the Church may excomunitate 7. Whether the Popes or any other Prelates excommunicatiō be to be regarded 8. Whether there be two or three or seauen Sacraments 9. Whether the Passeouer Circumcision and other Ceremonies and Sacrifices of the Lavv be now to be vsed 10. Whether the Heathenish sacrifices and vvorship be to be ioyned withall 11. Whether creame oyle salt spittle crossing and coniuring may be vsed in Baptisme 12. Whether the bread onely and not the cup is to be given to the lay people as you cal them 13. Whether holy water holy ashes holy palmes and such like be of the holy things of the Church 14. Whether the Iewish and the Popish Vestments Fasts and holy dayes are to be observed And a
the Papists might thus plead as you do And that so much the more as they bring more show of Scripture Pag. 129. then you More show I say as before I noted For otherwise I know both they and you pervert the Scriptures to mainteine your errors I wish it be not to your destruction Consider these things Mr Iacob and returne a sounder aunswer or els learne to lay your hand on your mouth To that which you vrge next concerning my self I have aunswered alreadie Pag. 41. But that which I vrged next to you viz your forsaking the true ministery Pag. 108. worship and order appointed by Christ as the Israelites also did and your retayning a false Ministery vvorship and confusion of Antichrist c. This you passe by and aunswer not a word vnto it Then where I alledged that you vvere not behind but rather exceeded the Israelites in persecuting vnto bands banishment and death such as beare vvitnes to the truth of Christ c. To this you aunswer It is a toy Thus first you make ‡ a mocke of sinne and so carry your self as if you had ben Chapleine to Boner Bancroft Gardiner Whitgift or some such Caiphas Pro. 14.9 By this also you testifie that not onelie the Prelates and Formalists as some would beare vs in hand but even the Reformists among whom you reckon your self have your hands in our blood consenting vnto and approving that which is done against vs. Further you do thus become like the Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites vpoÌ„ whom Christ pronounced a most heavy Wo Mat. 23 29-35 for that whiles they builded the tombes of the Prophets slaine by their Fathers themselves did kill and persecute the witnesses of Christ sent vnto them And yet they blessed themselues in their evill even as you do Behold to what height of impiety you are come and in how fearfull estate you remaine But yet you comfort your selves with two things 1. that this can not make you worse then the Iewes in Christs tyme who for all that they persecuted yet were not wholy fallen from God O most wofull estate Though yet your case be worse then theirs inasmuch as their Church was in a true constitution yours in a false Mat. 21 â—3 c. Act. 2. 13. 17. chap. 19.8.9 And therefore they to be admonished which was done by Christ and his Apostles afore anie were required to separate and save themselves from that froward generation Whereas the rule and commaundement concerning your and all false Churches is forthwith to go out froÌ„ such and to witnes the truth against them Rev. 18.4.5.6 12.17 14.12 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Phil. 1.28.29 Hos 4.15 Amos. 5.5.6 Micah 2.10 And thus far your estate is worse then theirs so as both other account is to be made of it and other maner of walking to be vsed toward it But suppose you were both alike in this yet most miserable is your case when for your persecution you are driven to plead the example of the Iewes 1 Thes 2.15.16 Mat. 23.33.34.35 †who both killed the Lord Iesus and their owne Prophets and did by persecution drive away the Church and Apostles of Christ and brought vpon themselves all the righteous bloodshed vpoÌ„ the earth froÌ„ the beginning of the world and had the kingdome of God taken from them neither could escape the damnation of hell wrath being come vpon them to the vtmost as both Christ and his Apostles testifyed against them How wofull then and miserable is your case though it be no vvorse then theirs 2. The second thing is that you say we suffer more then we need if we would but acknowledge the grace of God with you so far as it is that therefore it is not Christs crosse in that regard but our owne that we beare 1. But what if the Iewes or Papists did or should say thus much vnto them they persecuted Were it of anie moment Nay did not Boner and other of the Papists often so speak to the Martyrs 2. What think you also of the suffrings of Mr Vdall Mr Cartvvright Mr Fenner Mr Dearing Mr Merbury c. Did they suffer more then they needed Or diâ— they not acknowledge the grace of God with you so far as it is Or was it not Christs crosse but their owne that they bare 3. Tell vs next what grace of God is with you which we acknowledge not so far as it is Hold you anie truth of doctrine which we hold not Or reject you anie errors which we reject not Approve you anie way of righteousnes which we approve not Or refuse you anie evill which we refuse not If thus we do not convince vs by the Scripture †2 Tim. 3.16.17 which is profitable to these vses that the man of God may be absolute being fully furnished to everie good work But if we do thus as by the grace of God we do then your speach against vs is vntrue and your persecution of vs vnjust 4. Shew withall in what particulars we suffer more then we need 5. And prove that the things we suffer for are not good but evill Being carefull alwaie that your proofs be from the word of God which onelie is the rule of truth 6. Finallie we testify in all good conscience before God and men that we suffer onelie for bearing witnes to the truth of Christ against the abominations of Antithrist And this the Confession of our faith alreadie published in English Dutch and Latin doth and will testifie to the ages present and to come As also our other writings Examinations Aunswers Conferences c. For which you have alreadie condemned and put to death divers of vs and others you have imprisonned impoverished banished c. It is then Christ his crosse which we beare through his grace And you are become fighters against God and persecuters of Christ in his members Yea even this writing of yours proclaimeth that you are now alreadie become drunken with the blood of the Saints and with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus Els could you never have pleaded so wickedlie nor blessed your selves so foolishlie as you do But we will leave you and our cause vnto God who judgeth righteous judgement and will give every man according to his works When he maketh inquisitioÌ„ for blood he will remember all that you have done vnto vs and will not forget the complaint of the poore Therefore will wee wayte on him and say no more but with Zechariah when he was put to death ‡ 2 Chron. 24.22 The Lord look vpon it and requier it In the last place you vrge againe that there is contrariety betvveen my speach here and in the second Reason before 1 But I pray you tell me Saith not the Scripture both the things that are spoken in these two places Read we not for the one that Christ accounted the Iewes not the Samaritans the true worshippers of God Ioh 4.22 c.
a true Reason it maketh Maister Cranmer c. denyers of the faith and not true Christians also For maintenance whereof you have here not one poore vvord at all Tovvching that you say we cannot deny but graunt that we departe from and deny the faith in our Ministery I have told you hovv in my ansvver to your 7. Reason Also see my Replyes to your 2. Exception Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 8. Reason NOw that all your shifts fayle you come with Ifs and And 's If the Apostle meane this and If he meane that c. As if the Apostles * words were not playne 1 Tim. 5.8 so as the meaning may easily be discerned of anie that is not wilfullie blynd Read and mynd in all such cases and Scriptures that which is written Prov. 8.9 with Act. 28.26.27 But you say the Apostle may very well meane both such as neglect their houshold against convenient Christian providence and such as do it against the light of conscience and natures instinct If the first then you deny the Assumption that is the Apostles owne saying And thus againe you give the holy Ghost the lye If the latter then you deny the Proposition And then you must prove that thus they do it For who knoweth not that such will not for this case any more then you for yours confesse that they do it against light of conscience c. Nay will they not say as stiflie as you that this concerneth not them And moreover is not that also which is light in one mans conscience often darke in another mans by one meanes or other See it in an example One of your professors in London runneth to all your Sermons and Lectures from place to place throughout the City every day and every houre By this meanes he neglecteth his familie You tell him he doth it against light of conscience and natures instinct He denyes it and saith he doth it not so but as being perswaded in his conscience that he must first seek the kingdome of God and that then all outward things shal be cast to him and his Herevpon in a blynd zeale he doth as aforesaid Now tell me Is not this man notwithstanding within compasse of the Apostles rule here spoken of Yet will he stand against it for his case as stiffe as you for yours yea and alledge for himself more colour and show of Reason then you do or can for your Hierarchy c. So then both the Proposition and Assumption stand firme against you and therefore also the whole Reason Now here againe being loth belike to give them any rest you call for Mr Cranmer c. As if they were your Pages to wayte at your heeles on every call and to serve your turne at every need whether they will or not Never were poore men in all the world I think made such a stale But they serve you accordingly They let you commaund and go without For every where you commaund their names and yet alway go without their fellowship As I have shewed before in particular Pag. 40. 41. Towching your graunt let the Reader note here againe that you yeeld you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery c. You say you have before told vs how But what you have said before is there aunswered and taken away And besides for vs it is sufficient that it is done Look you vnto it how you do it It may be some of you do it of ignorance some of knowledge against the light of your owne consciēces some for feare of men some for love of the world some of contention or vaine glory some for their profit pleasure ease honour quyetnes or the like Thus I deny not but in the maner of doing there may be among you in these respects a divers measure and proportion of sinne But this concerneth not vs but your selves to look vnto and that greatlie Chap. 15. The Ninth Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THey which do otherwise teach and condiscend not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines all such by the rule of the Apostle are to be separated frō and therefore cannot in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 But such is the case of all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their ministery worship and Church constitution As appeareth both by the severall points of their false doctrine * Points of false doctrine els where noted and by the proofes “ Pag. 61. 63. 135. c. here before alledged out of their owne Canons Articles Iniunctions c. Therefore all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their Ministery worship and Church constitution are by the rule of the Apostle to be separated from neither can in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 9. Reason THis your last Reason is Separate from them that teach otherwise then the truth 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 We holding those Articles do teach diverse things in the Hierarchy c. that be otherwise then is truth Therefore we must be separated from and consequently we are no true Christians This is a fallacy also Separate from such Ergo separate wholy See my 1. and 2. Reply afore to the third Exception also the Aunswer to the two last Reasons of all the 7. and 8. We graunt therefore so farr forth as we hold otherwise then trueth so farr separate from vs but not any farther at all not wholy or absolutly And so the Apostle here meaneth Wherefore briefly Because you prove vs not wholy to deny the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Ievves Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 Therefore you ought not vvholy to separate from vs Neither to condemne vs vvholy as abolished from Christ no more then Maister Cranmer Ridley were vvith their Congregations in King Edwards tyme. And thus our Assumption in the beginning standeth firme The doctrine in the booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian. Cōclusion The contrary vvhereof is such a Paradox as hath not ben heard of till this day All reformed Churches in Europe doe and have alvvayes held othervvise Themselves †M. Barrow Mr. Penry Mr. Iohnson heretofore have acknovvledged and professed it The holy Martyrs that lived in King Edvvards dayes and dyed in Queene Maries dayes must be othervvise cut of from Christ vvho vvere true Christians by vertue of this doctrine and the practise thereof or verily not at all But now it is vvonder vvhat extreame passion hath driven them to this denyall Surely they see that it conuinceth flatly as indeed it doth their peremptory separation And therefore rather then they vvould
seem to have erred in so mayne a poinct vve cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driven them to it Neverthelesse all this vve leave to the Lord vvith the iudgement thereof vvho hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the secrets but also to turne and dispose them even as it pleaseth him Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 9. Reason TO this Reason you answer It is a fallacy Separate from such Ergo separate vvholy But how shew you any fallacy therein You bid vs see your Replyes to the third Exception and tvvo last Reasons of all Well we have seen them and finde nothing there but against your self as hath ben shewed So this Reason and the rest stand still vnanswered and strong against you And that we may not doubt but your self also see it howsoever you seem to plead the contrary before therefore now you graunt it and so yeeld the cause both in expresse words and by not defending the points of false doctrine wherewith you were charged neyther your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. In expresse words when you say you graunt that so farr foorth as you hold othervvise then trueth so far vve may and ought to separate from you Loe here what the evidence of the truth against which you have strugled so long hath now at length drawen from you The trueth is mighty and prevaileth But you adde that vve must not separate from you any further then as before not wholy or absolutly and so say you the Apostle “ here meaneth 1 Tim. 6.3 ◠First of all let vs know what your self meane hereby If you meane that we must not for your other defection forsake the trueths which you hold I aunswer that we doe it not and this your self know well ynough And in this sence your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles You say your selves you have separated from the Papists yet you neither can nor will say that you have forsaken the truthes which the Papists hold As that there is a God that there be three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Saviour of the world that God made heaven and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust c. But if you meane that because of the truthes which you professe therefore we should not separate from you then first you contradict your self having graunted that we must separate from you so farr foorth as you hold otherwise then trueth Secondlie you condemne your owne practise in your separation from the Papists notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdlie in this sence also your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore is evident both that there is no fallacy in the Reason but that it is playne and forceable against you And that you have directlie in expresse words given vs the cause See the particulars before Pag. 63 c. and acknowledged our separation to be lawfull from your * Ministery worship Assemblies c. because in these you hold otherwise then truth And as in expresse words you yeeld it so in deed you shew it in that you leave without all defēce as vnlawfull and to be separated from your Ministery worship Church-governement Doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularlie in the First and Second Reasons before which thing we wish the Reader well to observe And because we are fallen againe into mention of your false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of your dealing and insufficiencie of all your answers therefore it shall not be yrkesome to set downe here some such poincts of false doctrine as heretofore have ben obiected against you They are as followeth 1. That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacraments yet neyther the Sacramentes False doctrine in the Church of England and in the defenders thereof nor the people that ioine with them are defiled therby Which doctrine is contrary to the trueth of God in these Scriptures 1 Cor. 10.17 Hag. 2.14.15 1 Cor. 5.6 10.28 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18.19 Exod. 12.43 Levit. 15.4.5.6.7.31 11.24 13.45.46 19.7 Num. 5.2.3 19.21.22 Iosua 7.11.12 c. Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2. That the planting or reforming of Christs Church must tarrie for the Civill Magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word and spirit of God in the testimony of his servantes except they have authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat. 28.18.20 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1.27 Psal 2.6.9.10.12 Esa 9.6.7 Zach. 4.6 6.12.13 Dan. 2.44 7.27 9.25 Mich. 5.7 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6.12 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Rev. 1.5 12.11 14.12 17.14 19.16 20.4 3. That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated company of righteous men and women from the Idolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good and bad Which doctrine is cōtrary to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 vvith 6.2 Exod. 4.22.23 Levit. 10.10 20.24.25.26 Psal 24.3.4 Ezra 6.21 2. Chron. 11.13.16 Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10.12 Act. 2.40.41.42 19.9 Rom. 12.1.8 2 Cor. 6.17.18 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 14.9.12 18.4 21.27 and 22.14.15 c. 4. To mainteine this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they pervert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church and that they may be retained and communicated withall in the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Saviours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant the world in which his Church is militant here on earth And as therein there is the good seed the righteous the Children of the Kingdome so there are also tares hypocrites the children of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous servauntes of God and being discovered are here cast out of the Church in the Name and by the power of Iesus Christ so shall they in that great day be perfectlie severed from the godly by the Angels howsoever here in the meane tyme making profession of the truth and having a show of godlines they be suffred to grow together with the good seed and be with the vpright of heart reputed mēbers of the Church on earth Note also that the Church because it is the Temple House kingdome of God on earth wherein he dwelleth by his spirit and ruleth by the scepter of his word as also the gate of heaven through which he bringeth vs into his kingdome of glory after this life is therefore by Christ in this place called the Kingdome of heaven though yet it
although theyr Church receyve them yet is Mr Iacobs defence as sound for them then as it is now Neyther may any for these or the like separate from theyr Church worship or Ministery if you will beleev him Yet note that for proof of this assertion you must let them take day For as yet they can shew you none And what now if any of the errors which the Church of England at this day retayneth be fundamentall What will Mr Iacob say to that Then agayne he is at a flat Non plus and all his book is not worth a rush save that it yeelds vs the cause and graunts theyr Church to be a false Church aÌ„d theyr people to be no true ChristiaÌ„s in that estate For this therefore see what is sayd in the Treatise hereafter following Pag. 22. 114. 147. 148. What also if D. Bilson should aunswer Mr Iacob for that poynt of Christs descension into Hell as he aunswereth vs for theyr Church corruptions that though it be an error yet it is not fundamentall yea and that they in K. Edvvards dayes held it Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Would Mr Iacob take this of his word or think it a sufficient warant for the holding thereoff or bynd others to be likewise mynded c. But to let this passe let Mr Iacob mynd well the estate and practise of theyr Church but in such particulars as I have named hereafter Pag. 63. 64. 65. and then let him aunswer as before God Are they lawfull or vnlawfull Are they of Christ or Antichrist Of God or the Divell Lead they to heaven or hell May they be found in the Word and Churches of God or in the Popes Churches Canons Portuis Pontificall May they any maner way be approved and communicated withall or are they not wholy and with detestation to be refused and abhorred For aunswer hereof I will wayte till Mr Iacob reply agayne And in the meane tyme I will now aunswer what he and his Prefacemaker have already published Where first I desier the Reader in both of them and in Bridges Bancroft Bilson Hooker Sutcliff and all such writers of that Church to mynd these three things 1. That all theyr reasoning and perswasions are no other but such as may lead men eyther backe agayne to Popery or the ready way to Atheisme or at least to receyve whatsoever religion the Prince pleaseth so themselues account it not to be fundamentall Thus are they all blynd guydes Thus do they all teach to continew in sinne Thus do they shut vp the kingdome of heaven before men neyther entring in themselues nor suffring them that would enter to come in 2. That they do even set themselues to carpe at the truth it self and at the mayntenance and practise thereoff To which end they vse they care not what objections and abuse they care not whom 3. That they never do so much as offer to bring proof from the Scripture for theyr estate and practise See the particulars afterward rehearsed Pag. 63. 64. 65. And mynd iff there be any of them all that in any book they have written have brought warrant for them from the word of God Onely D. VVhitgift made an assay for some of them but he was so taken downe by Mr Cartvvright as he was glad to lay downe the bucklers which synce that tyme neyther himselff nor any other durst take vp And now Sutcliffe himselff can tell them iff Mr Cartwright have the better hand of D. Whitgift that then the Church of England is no true Church of Christ and that there is iust cause to departe and separate from it Sut. Engl. b. Pag. 228. These things noted I do now come to Mr Iacobs book and first to the Preface which his fellow and frend at a need hath prefixed before it Where I will for more evidence of the truth and stopping of theyr mouths first set downe his owne words as I do also Mr Iacobs afterward in the book it self and then make aunswer vnto them He that made or wrote the Preface subscribeth his Name thus D. B. And thus he beginneth it The Publisher to the Christian Reader Section 1. ABout Three Yeeres since Maister Iacob having some speach vvith certen of the separation before mentioned concerning their peremptory vtter separation from the Churches of England vvas requested by them briefly to sett dovvn in vvriting his Reason for defence of the said Churches And they vvould either yeild vnto his proofes or procure an ansvver vnto the same VVherevppon the Argument follovving this Preface vvas set dovvne in vvriting by maister Iacob vvhich the said parties did send to Maister Fr. Iohnson being then prisoner in the Clinke in Southvvark vvho made an ansvver vnto the same conteyning 3. Exceptions and 9. Reasons in denyall of the Assumption vvherevnto Maister Iacob Replyed Aftervvard Maister Iohnson defended his sayd Exceptions and Reasons And finally Maister Iacob Replyed againe As by the particulars themselves appeareth The Aunswer These two letters Geuev Scot. Allobrog Disc Pag. 7. D. B. I fynd to be set for Doctor Bancroft now Prelate of London in a * shameles book of his not long synce sparsed abroad In which respect as also considering many as godles things here agayne published albeit some might think it were therefore to be ascriâ—ed vnto him yet for other causes partly appearing in the book partly knowen of the man I thinck this Preface was not made by him but rather by another †Daniel Buck D. B. a Scrivener of London a man that hath turned his coat and forsaken the truth as often as †Doct. Pernâ— D. P. the old turne coat did if not also oftner He it was that by letters desired of me to aunswer Mr Iacobs Argument as here is said being himself at that tyme separated from the false worship and Ministery of England to which vomit he is now againe returned wallowing in that â—â—yer from which then he was washed Then also he could say himself thought Mr. Iacobs Argument was frivolous and of no waight and that his desier with some others was to have it answered for the stopping of Mr Iacobs mouth who thought it vnaunswerable Herevpon I made answer vnto it and as there was occasion by Mr Iacobs doubled Replyes have aunswered agayne and agayne I have also for sundry causes consulted with others therein and namely with Mr Henry Ainsvvorth Teacher of our Church my work-fellow to the kingdome of God approved in Christ At London 1593. and Mr Daniel Studley another off our Elders who hath given vp his life for the Name of our Lord Iesus Christ being first * adâ—udged to death afterward exiled c. And now vnto thee good Christian Reader I exhibit the whole Treatise conteyning beside that which was published before my aunswer also to Mr Iacobs second and last Reply that thou mayest try the matter by the word off God and as it agreeth therewith so to receyve it and no
further nor otherwise D. B. The publisher to the Reader Section 2. Novv having vveighed and considered vvith my selfe the great ignorance and errors vvherevvith those of the separation aforesaid are and have bene lately carried avvaye namely to affirme That all that stande members of the Churches of Englande are no true Christians nor in state of salvation And such like most vngodly sentences vvhich vvould grieve any Christian soule once to thinke on much more to publish to the vievv of the vvorld And vveighing likevvise vvithall the greate vveakenes of manie Christians among vs vvho through vvant of experience or due consideration of things as they are may easelie by theyr delusions be dravvne avvay into those errors vvith them I haue therefore Asvvell in hope of reclaiming of the said parties from their said extremities vvhich novv I iudge the most of them for vvant of meanes see not As also for the staying of others from running into the same grievous excesse vvith them novv published this discourse to the vievv of the vvorld vvhich hath line buryed in the hands of some fevv Many being desirous of it vvho by reason of the largnes in vvriting out of the same could not obteyne it VVhere vnto I am so much the rather induced For that the Reasons herein by Maister Iacob alleadged haue by Gods blessing reclaymed many from their former errors and satisfied others vvho have bene doubtfull and subiect to fall into the same In the examining of vvhich Discourse I shall desire the Reader to observe a fevv notes for his better proffiting in the same 1. And First among the rest to note this as a token of the strange and obstinate dealing of Maister Iohnson and others of them viz. That heretofore vntill such time as the Argument hereafter mentioned was framed against them they neuer denyed That the doctrine and profession of the Churches of England vvas sufficient to make those that belâ—eued and obeyed them to be true Christians and in state of salvation But alvvayes held professed and acknovvledged the contrarie As by the publike confessions of themselves namely Maister Barrovv Maister Penry and Maister Iohnson himselfe in this discourse mentioned in Pag. 167. 168. appeareth But novve they seing That if they should acknovvledge the said Doctrines and profession to be sufficient to salvation That then this conclusion vvould of necessitie follovv that those that hold and practise them are a true * * VVhich yet Mr. Penâ—y coÌ„fessed see Pag. 168. Church And so theyr ovvn former iudgements should be crossed Rather I say then they vvould be dravvne to that They novve stick not to deny their ovvne confessions vvhich they thinke to be the faifest vvay for them and like vnnaturall children so vehemently hate contemne and dispise theyr mother vvho bare them nourished and brought them vp from vvhose brests they sucked that svveere milke of the meanes of euerlasting life and salvation if euer they had any tast of it at all Beeing notvvithstanding not abashed novve in a desperate manner in the hardnes of theyr heart to affirme ‡ ‡ VVhich appeareth generally by denying the Assumption of Mr. Iacobs particularly in these Pages 29. 139. 140 141. That none by the doctrine of the Churches of England can be a true Christian or saved But that they all worship God in vayne Are abolished from Christ Are Babilonians Idolaters departers from the faith worse then Infidels And such like most vnchristian sentences making them all one vvith the Church of Rome c. VVhich impious affirmations vvould cause any Christian heart to lament and bleed for grief VVhose vnchristian sentences and false and deceiptfull Reasons the very naming vvhereof vvere sufficient to refute them are most plainly taken avvaye and cleane ouerthrovvne by these brief Replyes of Maister Iacob vnto every of them vnto vvhich I referre yovv Onely this I adde vvith all vvhich I vvould desire might be noted That if they continevv in their former confessions That the Doctrines and profession of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation As they ought it being the very truth Then are they all in a most grievous schisme in so peremptorily condempning and separating from such true Christians and Churches And if they deny it as they have begonne to doe Then doe they runne headlong into an intollerable sinne and extremitie vvithout all vvarrant of Gods vvord And besides give iust occasion to be called fearfull * * VVhich name they vniustly give to those that iustly for this theyr extremity forsake their fellovvship Apostates in so vvholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth vvhich before they imbraced and acknovvledged The Aunswer All that the publisher hath published here is eyther some foolish conceits of his owne or some frivolous cavils and malicious calumniations against the truth and vs that professe it His conceits of his ovvne knovvledge and our ignorance of his ovvne strength others vveaknes of reclayming and satisfying many by publishing this discourse of the force and plainenes of Mr. Iacobs Replyes c. I omit according to the rule which saith * Prov. 26.4 Aunsvver not a foole according to his foolishnes least thou also be like him But his cavils and calumniations against the truth and vvitnesses thereof being also objected by Mr Iacob in his Replyes I have aunswered in the Treatise following according to the counsell of the same Wisdome which saith †Pro. 26.5 Aunsvver a foole according to his foolishnes least he be vvise in his ovvne eyes The Aunswer therefore to that which here he obiecteth of our assertions and sentences of our former and present acknovvledgement of the Church of England her profession doctrines members Assemblyes c. see it in the Treatise following Pag. 7. 16. 20. 22. 33. 60. 63. 73. 82. 86. 94. 103. 106. 116. 120. 147. 158. 162. 170. 177. 188. 196. 200. c. And here note withall 1. That in all these things we are still of the same mynd as heretofore Mr Barrovv Mr Penry my self and the rest of vs have ben So far are we from crossing denying or any way altering our former judgement and confession as he falsely pretendeth For which see Pag. 177. 178. 179. 180. 181. 2. That we do not hate contemne and despise theyr Church which he calleth the Mother that bare vs c. but inasmuch as we have ben members thereof heretofore in which respect she was then in deed our Mother but now do see her to stand in adulterous estate we do therefore plead vvith her that she may take away her fornications out of her sight and her adulteryes from between her brests And we go out of her that we may not partake in her sinnes and that we receyve not of her plagues Both which things we do at the commaundement of God and by warrant of his word wherein he hath straitly charged all his people thus for to walk Hos
2.2 Rev. 18 4. 3. That even of the Church of Rome it may in some respect be said The doctrines and profession of that Church are sufficient to salvation viz. if the truths they hold be considered alone and apart from theyr errors and corruptions and these other also not imputed vnto them For confirmation whereof see in the Treatise following Pag. 47. But now then I aske Are they of England therefore in a grievous schisme in so peremptory condemning and separating from such Christians and Churches Let him aunswer in his next 4. That this D. B. himself hath heretofore held and witnessed that the Church of England standeth in Antichristian estate vvorshippeth God in vayne putteth from her the truth and ordinance of Christ is in her constitution a daughter of Babylon the Mother of vvhoredomes c. and therefore if now he deny it as he hath begun is both runne headlong into an intolerable sinne and extremity without all warrant of Gods word and besides giveth just occasion to be called a fearfull Apostate in so wholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth which before he embraced and acknowledged Advisedly I say as this Preface and his daily practise declareth For advantage sake because he hath done it in loue of himself seeking his owne things not that which is Christs that he might have prayse of men and account in the world that he might be released from imprisonment where somtymes he hath ben a witnes of Christ in bands that he might enjoy the favour of his Frends that he might without feare and disturbance of the Prelates or theyr Officers †Rev. 13 1â— buy and sell that is keep his shop follow his trade make profit and advantage thereby for himself c. This by his course of dealing appeareth to be his case But both him and all others that eyther refuse or forsake the truth we leave vnto God who tryeth the hearts and searcheth the reynes and will give every man according to his works 5. That the word of God being on our side for our profession and practise as in the Discourse following is shewed we neyther do nor need regard this mans or any other theyr tales clamours abuses threats reproches sclaunders c. The mischief of theyr tongues God will bring vpon theyr owne heads if they repent not To him we commit it D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 3. 2. Secondly I would desier the Reader not to be caried away with the multitude of corruptions from the Question or matter in hand viz. Whether the good doctrines of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation in them that in simplicitie of heart beleeve imbrace them notwithstnding the multitude of errors and corruptions which Maister Iohnson repeateth to the contrary But to have an especiall regard vnto the same Which is the maine poinct that hath doeth altogeather deceive them viz. To have an eye to the corruptions in the Ministery worship governement of the Churches of England But never to looke vnto the nature force of them whether simply of their owne nature they overthrow faith Christianity or whether they be held of obstinacy a convicted conscience or not Therefore I pray you marke examine the errors which they reckon vp I desire the same also of them for whose good especially I published this Treatise And after due consideratioÌ„ see if those errors are simply of that nature which before we have noted If they be not as Maister Iohnson nor all the men in the world shall ever be able to prove they are Then do they gett no aduantage by those errors to this purpose which they vrge them for although they were Thrice as many * * NotvvithstaÌ„ding they are to many already more as they are Thus they may see how they have all this while ben deceived are now to seeke a new for defence of their separation For I hope they will not say That every error held in simplicitie by Christians doth cut them off from salvation in Christ Then should they condemne themselves vnlesse they hold Anabaptisticall perfectioÌ„ which surely though I thinke they hold not simply in their consciences Yet in their practize by condemning others so peremptorily that jump not even with them in every poinct they come very neare it But let this passe wee see then That of necessitie the nature of the errors must be regarded Euery sinne is not alike Me thinkes then that they should affoard that favour to others which they would have others affoard vnto them namely That as they would be accompted true Christians through their faith in Christ notwithstanding their errors which they must acknowledge * * Ps 19.12 1 Cor. 13.9.12 are infinite many in this life So they should accompt of others in the like case which even common sence humanitie would require them to graunt To impresse this thing a little better in their myndes I will a little turne my speach vnto them And I would pray them to call to mynde the many errors corruptions which they beare with amonge themselves lay them the errors with vs togeather they shall see their equality Some of you hold it vtterly simply vnlawfull to sweare by a booke to prove a will take an administratioÌ„ or sue in the Ecclesiasticall Courts To shut vp your shops vpon Holly dayes Festivall dayes c. And that these are the inuentions of Antichrist c. And others of you hold these things alâ—ogeather lawfull have doe put them in practise with many other such like things which I could name But these shall suffice Now the thing which I would froÌ„ hence note is this Can you among your selves beare with such weighty poinctes as these which you say are the inventions traditions of Antichrist that man of sinne which in your accompt are the ‡ ‡ I vvould you knevv the marks of the Beast a litle better marks of the Beast ††Rev. 14. which whosoever receiveth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God shal be tormented in Hell fier for ever And will not your stomackes serve you to beare with the Churches of England in the like or rather in far lesser matters what equitie is there in this Surely you are for the most part so wholy given bend your wits myndes so much to looke into the estate of other men other Churches to apply the scriptures to them As you sildome or never look into your owne estate or apply the scriptures to your selves But looke vnto it it will be your decay in th' end You may fee then by your owne practize all errors are not alike Obiection But yet will some say are not all the scriptures commaundements of God fundamentall to be obeyed alike c. Let such consider of this scripture 1 Cor.
annexe the testimony of one of the Martyrs a good while synce when Antichrist as yet was but a litle discovered in respect as synce that tyme he hath ben One of the Articles against Iohn Claydon who was burned at London in Smithfield in the yeare 1415 was this That the Bisshops licence for a man to preach the vvord of God is the true character of the Beast that is Antichrist Where marke that albeit a man preach the word of God yet he sayth the Bishops licence so to do is the Beasts marke Act. and Monum edit 5. Pag. 588. b. Thus much I thought to write here also concerning this poynt Yet if D. B. or Mr Iacob for him who do both of them receyve and carry daily the Beasts marks in theyr foreheads and hands and therefore may well have sure knowledge thereof can shew them any better from the word of God I shall willingly heare it And seing that here he wisheth we knew the marks of the Beast a litle better we do also entreat him if his leasure and ability will serve to make them a litle better knowen vnto vs. But I doubt it will now be found in him and the rest of them at this day as Mr Ridley that faithfull Martyr found and complayned in his tyme saying I feare me nay it is certayne the World that wanteth the light of the Spirit of God for the world is not able to receyve him sayth Iohn neyther doth nor shall know the Beast nor his marks though he rage cruelly and live never so beastly and though his marked men be in number like the sand of the sea Act. and Mon. 5. edit Pag. 1618. b. To conclude this matter then may I not well returne theyr ovvne speach vpon themselves and say Surely they are for the most part so wholy given and bend their wits and mynds so much to look into the estate of other men and other Churches and to apply the Scriptures to them as they seldome or never look into their owne estate or apply the Scriptures to themselues But let them look vnto it it will be theyr decay in the end That all errors are alike is a fancy of his owne We did neuer imagine it We know and professe otherwise To give but one instance The Iewes the Arrians the Papists the Mungrell-protestants the Lutherans the Anabaptists c. do all of them at this day erre very greatly concerning the Person or Office of Iesus Christ who is “ 1 Cor. 3.11 the onely foundation of the Church Yet we know theyr errors are not all alike Some are greater some lesser some in one poynt some in another But this we say that all theyr errors are such as every faithfull Christian ought to eschew them and to witnes the contrary truth against them vnto death as they will aunswer to God at that day His obiection likewise of all the commaundements of God to be obeyed alike c. is of his owne coyning I do not think that ever he heard it of any of vs or that he did ever see it in any of our writings If he did he may shew it We know that Christ speaking of the dutyes of the first Table sayth This is first and the great commaundement Mat. 22.39 And that therefore the duâ—â—es of the second table must alway give place to the first as to the greater Math. 10.37.39 Luk. 14.26 Act. 20.24 Except when the mercy commaunded in the second is to be preferred before the ceremonyes required in the first and such like Hos 6.6 vvith Mat. 12 1-7 Luk. 13.14.17 We acknowledge also there is difference in the commaundements of the first Table when they are compared together one with another And in the commaundements likewise of the Second And consequently therefore in the dutyes required in both for our obedience These things are so well knowen as they may learne them of very children Note withall that we are bound to keep not onely the greatest of the commaundements of God but even the very least notwithstanding any perswasion prohibition or persecution to the contrary because they are all from one and the same God with commaundement to obey them all and every one and that vnder payne of damnation Therefore also Christ sayd The Second is like to the first and great commaundement Math. 22.39 Now iff any in this sence do say that all the Scriptures and commaundements of God are fundamentall and to be obeyed alike it may well be vnderstood according to that saying of our Lord Iesus before alledged Mat. 22.38.39.40 Otherwise there is difference to be put as is aforesaid in the dutyes both of the two Tables themselves and of the severall commaundements of each of them His inserting of these two words the Scriptures and fundamentall when he saith that all the Scriptures and commaundements of God are fundamentall and to be obeyed alike I will not now further stand vpon It seemeth he did it for some evasion Which I doubt not but his next Reply if he be not already at a Non plus will make more manifest Till then let this suffice which hath ben said The place of 1 Cor. 3.12.15 both he and Mr Iacob do misvnderstand and misalledge The Apostel speaketh not there of any false doctrine or errors built vppon the foundation but of the entising speach of mans wisdome and vayne eloquence off words By which it came to passe that although they taught nothing but the truth and so buylt vpon the foundation Iesus Christ yet they did it vnworthily and not as became the simplicity of the Gospell of Christ That this is the true and playne meaning of the Apostles speach appeareth thus 1 Cor. 2. 3 chap. 1. First by comparing together the second and third chapters of this Epistle Where all may see that he speaketh not a worde of any error or vntruth that was taught but of the simplicity on the one hand and of the ostentation of speach and humane wisdome on the other which was vsed by the Teachers of Corinth in theyr building vpon the foundation that is in theyr teaching of the truth of Iesus Christ 2. Secondly for that the very terme * 1 Cor. 3.10 here vsed by the Apostle concerneth directly the maner of teaching or building vpon the foundation not the matter taught or built vpon it His words are these Let euery man take heed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hovv he buildeth vpon it The word which he vseth here is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hovv for the manner not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vvhat for the matter 3. Thirdly because for the matter taught the Apostle doth els where give another rule concerning all teachers of errors and false doctrine though they should be Angels from heaven viz. to give them no countenance at all neyther to have any communion with them but to separate from them and hold them accursed 1 Tim. 6 3.4.5 Gal. 1.8.9 Rom. 16.17.18 2 Ioh ver 10.11 Rev. 22.18.19
vvicked persons theyr offices beeing very gainefull and besides they liuing vnder the authoritie of the Heathirish Romans vvho ruled ouer them All these things considered it is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution on vvhich they so much depend vvere vvholy altered from the right institution and therefore vvould make nothing for them As for theyr allegation of Mat. 23.1 VVhere they say Christ testifieth that they had true offices by saying they satt in Moses chaire It vvill not help them any vvhit at all For Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chaire must be vnderstood of somevvhat else themselves ‡ ‡ Mr Barrovv Mr Greēvvood in diuers Letters and Treatises have vnderstood it heretofore of Moses doctrine The Aunswer Do not they erre that imagine evill And doth not a deceyver speak lyes Prov. 14.22.25 What then may we think of him that counteth it a small thing to lye against Man if he do not also open his mouth against heaven and give the lye to the holy Ghost himself See both in this man here Against vs and I feare against his own conscience he forgeth a lye when he sayth vve do vvholy depend on their outvvard constitution c. For he knoweth we obiect against them besides and separate from them for much false doctrine publikly taught and mainteyned among them and for theyr wretched persecution of the truth and Martyrs of Iesus Therefore do we not wholy depend on theyr outward constitution From which it is to be noted that he severeth theyr publik doctrine as himself sheweth in the next Section and so therefore here we speak accordingly And that he knoweth these things appeareth both by this Treatise first published by himself where we have declared it in divers particulars Pag. 66. 108. 157. 158 159. 160. and in that himself hath seen and alleadgeth in this very Section another treatise written in answer of Mr A. H. where mo instances are given concerning this matter As may be seen in that book Pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. 22. 23. 37. 90. 91. To the holy Ghost he giveth the lye yea and maketh Christ our Lord a sinner in that which here he speaketh first of the constitution of the Ievvish Churches For the Scripture teacheth that the constitution of that Church was a true one and that Christ did himself communicate therein with them Yet this man besides that he sayth afterward that it is very likely the offices and outvvard constitution thereof vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Euen here at first he sayth peremptorily that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Which how shamefully false it is may appeare even by this that in those very tymes the estate of the Iewes Church yet was such as they were a people separated from the world having the true Ministery ordinances worship and administration which God by Moses had commanded As these Scriptures do plainely testify Luk. 1.6.8 9.10 11. 2.22.23.24.27.46 Mat. 8.4 Ioh. 1.19 4.22 5.1 11.55.2 Tim. 1.3.5 Yea they would not at any hand admit eyther of confusion of people or of any other Ministery then God had ordeyned As may be seen for the first in Act. 21.28 29. and for the latter in Iob. 1 19-25 Mat. 21.25.26 How shameles then is it to say as here he doth that theyr constitution was as greatly altered and corrupted as that of the Churches of England which to this day stand confused of all sorts of people aswell the prophanest as the best among them and have no other Ministery or Leiturgy but such as they have receyved from Antichrist the man of sinne and from Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 And further if the Iewish Church had ben thus corrupted as he feareth not to affirme how could Christ have communicated with them as he did but he must needs have sinned ād that highly against the Law of God viz. if he had as it is now in England joyned to such a Church as were vnseparated from the World or had partaken with a false Ministery or had sent others to a straunge Priesthood and Service or had approved by word or deed any other ordinances then those which God had commaunded c. This Scribe then must eyther approve the Church-constitution of England by the word of God or els confesse that it and the Iewish Churches are in this poynt nothing alike or if neyther of these that then Iesus Christ was a sinner Of whom the truth itself and work of our redemption testify that he knew no sinne at all but was like to vs in all things sinne excepted 2 Cor. 5.21 Heb. 4.15 7.26 This man then doth thus also both blaspheme the Sonne of God and make the holy Ghost a lyar But there were he saith tvvo high Priests at once vvhereas by the Lavv of God there should be but one 1. If it were so albeit thus they offended in the number yet still there was that office and function of Priesthood which God had ordeyned not a new one of mans devise as is the whole Hierarchy of England from the hyest Archbishop to the lowest Parish Priest And so there is no comparison between these two 2. This was the personall sinne of the men not the constitution of that Church neyther of the Offices wherein they were See it in another example Iudas an Apostle of Christ yet betrayeth him Doth it therefore follow that his office of Ministery wherein he was set by Christ himself was vnlawfull Nay that was the sinne of the Man not of the Office wherein he was What is this then to the question in hand when as the Ministery of England is charged to be straunge vnlawfull false in the very offices and functions thereof Yea and this man himself doth here by the whole course of his speach graunt as much 3. Is there any thing here said for the Priests and constitution of the Church of England which the most popish Priests Prelates Monks c. may not aswell alledge for theyrs Is theyr Ministery or constitution therefore such as man be ioyned withall 4. See how straungely these men forget and contradict themselves T. G. first Reply Pag. 83 84. Mr Cartwright writing against D. Whitgift saith If the vvhole practise of the Church vnder the Lavv be looked vpon it shall not be found that any other ecclesiasticall Ministery vvas appointed then those orders of hy Priests and Levites c. vvhich vvere appoynted by the Lavv of God And further that as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any straunge doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true do rine vnder the Name of any other function then vvas instituted by God Yet this man with an whores forehead shameth not to perswade that the offices and outvvard constitution of that Church vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Thus
their plagues Rev. 18.4 And if it be well mynded Mr Iacob himself howsoever he pretend otherwise yet in deed yeeldeth thus much when he is driven to confesse that theyr constitution is such * Pag. 37. 61 69. 70. 84. 154. as they stand in error and that of Antichrist against the Second commaundement in vayne vvorship departing from and denying the faith in their Ministery c. But for these and all the rest thou mayest see and I pray thee good Reader well to mynd the Arguments Replyes and Aunswers following From the reading whereof I will not not now any longer hold thee The God of peace tread Sathan vnder thy feet and by his word and Spirit lead thee into the way of truth to the conservation of thy soule vnto life eternall And if thou reapest any fruit of my labours give prayse vnto God and pray for me the weakest of his servants and vnworthyest of the witnesses of Iesus The grace of our Lord Iesus Christ be with thy spirit Amen Thyne in Christ Fran Iohnson AN AVNSWER TO M. H. IACOBS ARGVMENTS AND REPLIES concerning the Churches and Ministery of ENGLAND Chap. 1. Of the Title of Maister Iacobs Book which is thus A DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministerie of ENGLAND FRAN. IOHNSON his Aunsvver THe defence of the Churches and Ministery of England were an enterprise worth the taking in hand if Maister Iacob effected in deed what the Title of his Book pretendeth in show But he that readeth his book and mindeth it well shall find him promise mountaines and performe molehils Let the sequell shew it Now I would that Maister Iacob should speak himself without stammering what Churches and what Ministerie of ENGLAND he defendeth All or some only It is a poynt needfull to be knowen and mentioned All may see it would giue great light for deciding the controuersy betwen vs. And who would not think he should readily declaer it Yet he flies from it every where Therefore that he may not alway so doe but may be drawen to answer directly vnto it as also for the Readers better help and more clearing of the truth I wil particulerly and as plainely as I can describe how the Churches and Ministerie of England are to be considered And thē expect his aunswer If I be mistaken or if maister Iacob and such as liue in that Church who therefore haue better occasion to know it can do it more fully and plainely I shal willingly heare it In the meane time this is my iudgment First for the Churches to consider them as followeth 1 In respect of the Conuocation-house which consisteth of the Prelates and some other of the Priests assembled togeather with them And so they haue but one Church in the Land And that when there is a Parliament or like occasion I take it also that out of this Church the Prince the Nobles and people are excluded Saue that when they haue determined their matters they haue for some of them the consent of the Parliament 2 According to the number of their Archbishops and so they haue two Metropolitan Churches vnder which all the rest are subiect and cōprised 3 According to the number of their Arch and Lord Bishops and so there are about 26. Churches comprehending all within their seuerall Diocesses Hither also I referre the Cathedrall Churches 4 According to the ecclesiastical Courts of the Archbs. Lordbs Chancelors Archdeacons Commissaries and Officials vnder which all the other Ministers and people stand subiect and so according to the number of those Courts there may be some 200. Churches or thereabout 5 According to the number of the Parish assemblies of which all stand mēbers and so ther are many thousād Churches in the Land Hitherto of the Churches The Ministery may be considered two wayes Eyther more generally as they are all Priests or Deacons or more particularly as they are superiour or inferiour Superiour as Archbishops Lordbishops Suffraganes Deanes Archdeacons and the rest of that sort Inferiour as Parsons Vicars Curates Stipendary Preachers Houshold Chapleynes and the like Then in al these consider fower things 1. their office 2. their entrāce 3. their Administration 4. their maintenance This for the Ministerie Now let M. Iacob tell vs in his next 1. whether he defend all these Churches and Ministerie of England or but some of them 2. If not all but some only which then they are that he defendeth and which he leaveth as vtterly vnlawfull without all defence 3. For those he defendeth let him show in what place and pages of his book we may find the defence of them For whether it be that I perceyue it not or that he doth it not of this I am sure for my self that I cannot find in al his book so much as any one of them defended As others find let thē speak And to put al out of doubt let M. Iacob shew it Lastly if he will be intreated let him tell the cause why his book being entituled A defence of the Churches Ministerie of England came not out Cum priuilegio Yea why it was printed beyond sea and not in England It is a shrewd token cōsidering the title that his Defence euen at home amōg his neighbours is accoūted very weak and simple For the name Brownists by which we are reproched in the forefrōt of his book note these things 1. That in like manner long since by the Priests and Pharisees were the Apostles and Primitiue Churches termed * Act. 24.5 a sect of Nazarites and at this day by the Papists are the Professors of the Gospel called Calvinists Zuinglians Huguenotes and the like 2. M. Browne from whose name this byword was first taken vp is a member and Minister of M. Iacobs Church not of ours yet holding as we heare in his iudgment the truth we professe but for his practise stāding in the apostasy and false worship wherein they are So then not we but M. Iacob and such like may fitly be called Brownists inasmuch as in their iudgment they hold the things we stand for to be good yet in their practise like Browne are other men walking with the Church of England in her euill way 3. For our selues we acknowledg with the disciples in the Primitiue Churches and the faithful in al ages since that we are ‡ Act. 11.26 Christians striuing now for our time and estate against the remainder of the abominations of Antichrist to keep the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus Therefore doth it not trouble vs that by M. Iacob or any other we are thus reuiled for the name of Christ It is inough for vs that the †1 Pet. 4.14 spirit and truth of God which on their part is euil spoken of is on our part glorified But yet let him and all such take heed vnto it in time Now I proceed to his maine and maimed Argument Which is as followeth Chap. 2. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it is novv propounded and printed by vvhich
in him some goodnes towards the Lord God of Israell he may be counted a true Israelite finding mercy at the Lords hands 1 King 14.1.5.13 By this you may see what my mind in this first point is and alway hath ben And if you doe marke wheresoeuer I speak of the members of your Church to be vnder wrath in Antichristian estate no true Christians or iointly together no true Churches or the like I speake it still with this caution in respect of such estate or constitution as they stand in vnder Antichrist To which end you may euerie where in my aunswers minde these and the like clauses In that estate In that constitution In respect of the Ministerie and constitution of the Church Being subiect to Antichrist Being so considered Being Antichristian and other of like sorte For the second your words are That all the Christians and Churches in King Edvvards tyme and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley M. Hooper M. Latimer M. Philpot M. Saunders M. Rogers M. Tailor c. vvere all lims of Antichrist and no true Christians Now as touching this matter although you may easily see what my minde is by that I haue said concerning the other going before yet for this in particular know also that I am thus minded viz. That al the christians and churches in King Edwards time and namely M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. stood as touching the outward constitution of that church in Antichristian estate Yet considering the mercie of God vnto thē and their faithfulnes in those things which in that time of ignorance were reuealed inasmuch as afterward they loued not their liues vnto death but in many waightie pointes resisted vnto blood striuing against Antichrist I hold them in this respect true Christians and now to be at rest with the Lord. And tell me your self M. Iacob whether you iudge not thus of Arnoldus de villa noua Iohannes de rupe scissa Iohn Wicleff Iohn Hus Ierome of Prage Sauanarola Dominicus Siluester Thorpe Swinderby Bilney c. the faithfull witnesses of Christ in their seuerall ages and therefore in this respect true Christians whereas yet notwithstanding as touching their ministerie and Church-constitution wherein they were they stood in Antichristian estate some of them being Friers some popish Priests some saying Masse some communicating in it c. vntill the day they were martyred and put to death For the third your wordes are That euerie soule in England is conuicted in consciēce that the Prelacie is vnlawfull vntolerable Touching this likewise I neuer did nor can affirme as you haue set downe Only this I know and affirme for the generall state of the Land that a greater light is risen vnto them in these daies but they loue darknes more then light Also that many times and sundry waies hath ben shewed and convinced vnto them that the Prelacie Priesthood Leiturgy c. are Antichristian and therefore vnlawful and vntolerable Finally that the * VVitnesse their Acts in Parlament against vs. Their presēt estate practise c. vniuersal face of the Realme hath refused the truth by vs professed and retaineth still the Antichristian abhominations aforesaid For which I feare their iudgment will be the heauier Ioh. 3.19 and 15.22 Act. 13.45.46 This is that which I haue bin and am perswaded touching these particulars The latter branch of the first of these is our maine question and the ground of all our reasoning which I haue proued by many arguments both from the word of God and your owne mens writings Vnto which M. Iacob you haue not giuen one word of sound aunswer in all your booke but continually fly from the point in question as knowing I feare in your self that there can be no iust defence of your Churches estate in this behalf And touching all three your self could not but know that my iudgment therein was as I haue declared you and I haue so oftē had speach together thereabout Yet behold to make the truth of God and my defence thereof more odious to the world and so to preiudice your Readers iudgment you haue here at first vniustly and falsly fathered vpon me these three assertions being not able to shew them in my words or writings any where Remember you not how the enemies of Gods grace delt of old with the Apostles Rom. 3.8 blaming them vniustly as if they had taught vve should doe euil that good might come thereof Or mind you how the Papists Anabaptists and the like doe at this day charge vs though falsly that vve make God the author of sin whiles we maintaine against them the truth touching Predestination Freewill c. In like manner deale you with me See Mat. 26 60.61 vvith Ioh. 2 19.21 Act. 6.13.14 And thus at first you become a false witnes both in peruerting the sence of my words and in altering diminishing and adding vnto them Euerie of which you know is to beare false testimony not only against me but in this case euen against the truth it self That all men take notice both of these positions and of our dealing therein I also am content and desirous My aunswers I confesse are somewhat long partly because I would make the truth manifest euen to the most simple partly for that I would more fully discouer your manifold shifts and leaue you no statting hole any where In your replies which may well be pinned vp in a narrow roome seeing they haue nothing of waight in them I desire more sound and vpright dealing together with demonstration of your cause from the Scripture That I haue cause thus to desire these three points following which I wish the Reader to obserue in your Replies will testifie First that you being to proue your cause and Argument Three things to be noted by the Reader in Mr Iacobs Replyes neuer proceed though you be still called vpon to make due proof thereof but put ouer all proof vnto me and busie your selfe in aunswering after your fashion the Exceptions and Reasons I brought against your Argument Secondly that in aunswering my Reasons and Exceptions finding them all to heauy you neuer directly refute them as they were propoūded but some times leaue most waightie points in them wholy vnaunswered somtimes labour to wash your hāds of the matter and to turne ouer the plea from your selfe that haue vndertakē it to the state of your Church on whom you leaue it somtimes transforme them into other shapes framed by your self and so aunswer not me but fight with your owne shadow and thus euerie foot yeeld the cause by necessary consequence Thirdly that in steed of Gods word which is very rare with you in all this dispute you presse vs with the authoritie of Man neuer going about to approue your Church-estate by the Scriptures which onely must end this controuersie but alway leading vs to the view and errors of the Martyrs For let it be minded whether euery of your Replies haue not this for their foundation
His 1. Reply to the 7. Reason folloing The Papists forbidding of mariage and meats if they had done no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such These and many mo you haue in your first Reply besides an hundred the like in the second not only sounding to that sence but directly and necessarily implying it And whereas you have sometimes the contrary as I noted * His 1. Reply to the 4 Reason follovving els where that doth but so much the more shew your inconstancy and contradiction of your self Shall I therefore now turne vpon you your owne words and say O strange dealing vvithout all shame in the vievv of the vvorld to father on me this foule vntruth c. Yet I am glad M. Iacob the truth prevaileth so much with you nill ye will ye as you are driuen to confesse that this assertion is a foule vntruth and senceles errour For herevpon it followeth first that your Proposition is not generall and therefore your whole Argument faulty and to no purpose at al for the question in hand secondly that of necessity there should be some clause ānexed to your Proposition touching the Antichristian abhominations among you if you would haue your Reason good for the estate of your Churches But you account such addition would be idle and vaine I easily beleeue you are so minded But why I pray you thinke you so Is it because you did not at first mind it or because now you see it would discouer to euerie man the vanitie of your Reason Howsoeuer it must be expressed And if your self either know not how to doe it or be vnwilling I will show it Mark now therfore Hovv Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist But the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly * Book of Articles published Anno 1562 professed and practised by Lavv in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluatiō And the publik Assemblyes of England are in their estate companyes so gathered together Therefore it is also sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist Or thus rather If the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Lavv in England be sufficient to make a particular man standing member of that Church which retaineth the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist yet notvvithstanding to be a true Christian and in state of saluation as tovvching his estate and standing in that Church then is it also sufficient to make a company so gathered together and consequently the Church of England to be a true Church of Christ as towching the estate and constitution thereof But the former say you is true Therefore also the latter But the former say I is false Therefore also the latter Thus M. Iacob should your Argument be framed in right forme of reasoning for the estate of your Church and for the question between vs. Which now being done who is so simple as cannot plainely see the falshood of both the Propositions in the former and of the Assumption in the latter and consequently the vanity of your Reason every way If you still hold otherwise then must we still call vpon you for proof Bare saying will not serue we looke for due proof Mind further that now as your case standeth you are to approve the estate of your Church and the members thereof not only as they retaine the abominatiōs of Antichrist but as they withstand also the contrary truth and way of Christ which hath ben a long time made known and offered vnto them Otherwise he that hath but half an eye may see you defēd not the present estate of the Churches of England as the title of your book pretendeth In that you say wheresoeuer there are any things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient in deed is not sufficient to make a true Christian you are againe mistaken There may be in the constitution of a Church things added destroying faith and yet so much truth be held and taught as to some particular men cōsidered apart from the constitution is sufficient to make them true Christians and in state of saluation the other being not imputed vnto them by the Lord. Thus I doubt not hath * Thus haue I spoken to you Mr Iacob many tymes Yet see hovv you haue novv dealt vvith me contrary to your knovvledg God saued some in the most popish Churches and many mo in yours from time to time Yet notwithstanding this doth not iustifie the estate either of their or of your Church neither doth it warrant any to abide therein But it argueth partly the riches of Gods mercie partlie the greatnes of his power who as at first he brought light out of darknes so in the worst times and euen in the darke kingdome of Antichrist saueth them that are his But of this besides that already spoken there will be occasion to speak more ‡ In the handling of the second Exception and 7. Reason folloing hereafter Your bad dealing about the first rest of the general points aboue named I haue declared before In deed your self may tremble to think thereon as on your Antichristian estate also in that Church You I say M. Iacob who cannot be ignorant of both these things howsoever you haue advisedly if not also vvilfully now written otherwise Mind therefore if you haue not here took heauen and earth to record against your self and whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs proceed to your Replies vpon the Exceptions and Reasons heretofore alledged against your Assumption And let the Reader mind without partialitie as before God which of vs haue the truth and accordingly let him walke in all good conscience before God and men Chap. 4. The first Exception against the Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson FIrst consider the 19. Article of that doctrine and Book which by your self is alleadged for your defence and see by it if your profession and practize be not contrary one to an other Yea see if it be not manifest euen by it that you haue not a true visible Church of Christ The words of the Article are these Artic. 19. The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure vvord of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same These are your owne words and
doctrine Now if you cannot prooue your Assemblies to be such you may see your own witnesses euen your owne doctrine and book giue verdict against you If you can prooue them to be such where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in this your owne description of a visible Church H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 1. Excep THis your first Exception is the 19. Article of this very book vvhich vvee alleadge vvherein a visible Church is described to be a Congregation where the pure word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all those things that of necessitie are requisite Novv this description you reiect not but our practise say you is contrary and therefore vve haue no true visible Churches nor Christians I ansvver vvherein is it contrarie in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite doth not all this Christian vvorld see and confesse that our publique practise is agreeable to our profession in that book Nay say you but proue you your assemblies to be such and if you can proue them where and what are your proofs if you doe not you are confuted A vvorthy confutation sure and very Clerklike As if my Tenaunt should denie me rent for my house and land yea and goe to Lavv vvith me for the fee simple vvhich he hath holden in ferme of me these 40. yeares and I haue hetherto quietly enioyed from my Auncestors time out of minde Novv he suing me at lavv for that vvhich I thus possesse saith proue your right to this land vvhich you haue if you can vvhat and vvhere be your proofes let me see them Or els I your Tenaunt vvill haue it This vvere goodly dealing vvere it not and very lavvfull EueÌ„ so doe you asking proofes of vs for that vvhich vve possesse haue possessed before you made any question about it nay you your selues held part of this possession of vs and vvith vs till yesterday vvhen you began first to lay claime in this sorte to the vvhole Novv your reason is let vs prooue it to be ours where be our proofs Or els you will not accknowledg vs any longer see I pray you your owne equity If this suffice not to make you desist I leaue it to the Iudges to giue sentence Secondly note further Our Article saith A Church is where the word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all things that of necessitie are requisite Where vveâ— plainly insinuate that many errours may be added and truthes wanting in a visible Church but nothing which is absolutely necessarie Now what doth our practize in Preaching or Sacraments want that is absolutely necessarie without which there cannot be any true preaching or Sacraments at all shevv it vs because vve see it not our selues I assure you vntil then your first reason hath no reason in it Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply vpon the 1. Excep HOw fit or vnfit the description is I neither did nor doe examine Onely because it is your owne profession and your practise is coÌ„trary vnto it I did from hence take the first Exception requiring of you to proue your Assemblies to be such or els to know that your owne doctrine is a witnes against your selues Now in your Reply haue you according to the particulers of that description iustified your Church assemblies Nothing lesse Let this therefore be first obserued But what then haue you done First pretending as if you repeated our exception and your owne description you leaue out diuers particulers of speciall moment there expressed As first where the visible Church is described to be a congregation of faithfull men you leaue out these wordes of faithfull men belike knowing that your Congregations which are holds of all foule spirits and cages of euery vncleane and hatefull bird Reuel 18.2 cannot therefore iustly be accounted congregations of faithfull men Secondly where the description speaketh of the Sacraments to be duely ministred you leaue out this word duely because it crosseth your womens Baptisme priuate Communion receiuing of the most prophane and their seed among you c. Lastly where in the description it is required both for preaching the pure word and due administration of the Sacraments that they be don according to Christes ordinance you leaue out these words according to Christes ordinance belike because this clause quite overthroweth both your Antichristian Prelacy from whih al the inferior Ministers among you receiue power and authority to preach and minister the SacrameÌ„ts and your Preisthood and Deaconry wherein you all administer and your stinted imposed prayers exhortations crosses in the forehead questions to Infantes vse of the same wordes in English in ministring the Lords Supper which the Papists vsed and still vse in Latine not retaining the words of Christes institution and such like Thus hauing left out such particulers as were of speciall moment against you yet you demaund vvherein your paactize is contrary to your profession and description of a visible Church in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite We aunswer in all the particulers of that description aforesayd For first your Church-assemblies are not congregations of faithfull men but a confusion of all manner of people though neuer so wicked and prophane The ‡ D. VVâ—iâ—g booke pag 176. and 178 Prelates and Formalists affirm that your Church is full of Atheistes Papistes Idolaters Drunkards Whoremongers and such like The * Sermon on Rom. 12 pag. 65. and 66. Demonstration in the preface forward Preachers likewise that in your Church are svvarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erronious and heretical Sectaries Witches Charmers Sorcerers Murtherers Theeues Adulterers Lyars c. Finally that a man may be any thing among you sauing a sound Christian These things being so as both your estate and writings beare witnes iudge your selues whether your Assemblies can be accounted Congregations of faithfull men or no which is the first point of the description aforesaid Secondly in the same description is required That the pure vvord of God be preached according to Christes ordinance But with you are allowed besides the word of God the Apocrypha books and in steed of preching the word the reading of Homilies as may appeare in that ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1502. book of Articles alledged by your self Yet who knoweth not that in those bookes are diuers vntruths errors contradictions blasphemies and such like So farre are they from being the pure word of God or agreeing therewith Moreouer when and where the word is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ And the Ministers that preach it do in your constitution alway stand subiect to be silenced suspended excommunicated and degraded by the Prelates and Ordinaries to whom when you are made Priests you promise and when you enter vpon a benefice you sweare Canonicall obedience Neither are you suffered any further to preach the word and truth of God then agreeth
testimonies of theirs if the case were not as cleare as the Sunne at noone day But you say I depraue their meanings vtterly Why so I pray you Because they say not that all your Assemblies are such nor your vvhole Assemblies though they graunt very many such to be among you that is manie of your Church to be Atheists Papists Drunkards Whoremongers Thieves Murtherers Witches c. Alas M. Iacob it pittieth me to see your extreame follie and evill conscience Your follie that see not how both they and you giue the cause in this graunt and therby also testifie that I do not at all deprave their meanings Is it possible that your Church-assemblies should be full of such knowen vngodly persons and yet be Congregations of faithful men It never entred into my thought much lesse did I ever say it that your whole Assemblies are such I know and willingly accknowledg many of your Church not to be so for which I praise God Alwaies I except your publike worship and Idolatrie wherein all even the best among you are inwrapped This I said that your Assemblies are not congregations of faithful men but a confusion of all manner of people though never so vvicked And this you see do your owne men testifie Adde herevnto that both they and your self graunt your Assemblies herein ought to be reformed If they be already Congregations of faithfull men what reformation would you haue in this behalf But if their estate herein be such as they ought to be reformed why are you so shamles and foolish thus to speake as you do in all this matter Besides your folly you bewray an evill conscience in asmuch as you denie that thing the light whereof doth so shine in your conscience as even whiles you would shift it of you are constrained to acknowledg it whether you will or not Where you speak of your owne men that they deny not your Assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be seperated from it is to no purpose at all saue against your selfe For first though they speak it not in these very syllables yet the thing it self necessarily followeth vpon their words It is without question that the heathen Poets did themselues worship Idols yet notwithstanding sometimes they so spake in their writings as Paull doth * Act. 17.28.29 from thence conclude that not Idols but the true God onely is to be worshipped Had it now ben of waight for any of them to have alleadged against the Apostle that theit Poets did not deny Idols to be worshipped Yet you think it sufficient to withstand the truth with any such pretence Let this once spoken serve for aunswer to all your reproches wherewith you burden me many times for the collections which I deduce necessarily from your owne and other mens writings Secondly you are to know that it is not materiall against me whatsoever your men doe graunt or denie But against you it is who abide in the same Ministerie and of the same Church with them For that which you speak of the Church of the Iewes both auncient and in the time of Christ referring vs to another place hereafter in this book for proof of your comparison look you there also for aunswer therevnto And hitherto of the first point of your Article and profession differing from your practise and constitution For the second if you professe to preach the pure vvord of God as this Article requireth and yet againe both in profession and practise as here you acknowledg preach the impure and lying writings of Men such as be the Apocrypha books and your Homilies what is or can be more contrarie If your Article meane othervvise as you pretend it is full of deceit Neither shall any ever know what your profession is if your Articles doe thus crosse one another and your practise also agree with the worst But to cleare this point I aunswer furthermore 1. that it is a point of necessitie requisite that Gods vvord onely be taught For which see these Scriptures Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 Psal 119.113 Prov. 30.5.6 Esa 8.20 and 59.21 Ier. 23 16.28 Ioh. 5.39 Col. 3.16 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 and 2 Tim. 3.16.17 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 22.18.19 Thus by your owne exposition of this Article the Assumption of your maine Argument falleth and your Churches remaine in false constitution which is the question betweene vs. See the third Exception follovving In the aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply 2. The Apocrypha books maintained in the Church which you say is both your profession and practise overthroweth the truth of Christian religion and bringeth in Iudaisme Popery Atheisme and what not 3. Even in the Church of Rome where these books also are received yet withal the pure word is so preached among them by Law as no doubt to some is sufficient co salvation For proof whereof see the Rhemes Testament in their note vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Yet this hindreth not but that their Church maintaineth false doctrine as in that place also may be seen and standeth in false constitution Neither therefore can this help you It resteth then that you show the pure worde only to be preached among you by Lavv and that also according to Christes ordinance which yet you doe not neither can doe And therefore it is your self that say nothing but that you both professe practise errors Now it is well the truth so shineth in your heart as you confesse your Churches faile from the pure vvord in sundry lesser points Yet I pray you reckon vp these points in particular that by the worde of God it may be seen whether they be lesser or greater then you would beare vs in hand Then tell vs in whose power it is in your Church to redresse them Also why they are not redressed seeing you know them and haue ‡ Rev. 2.16.17 3.3 Mat. 18.15.16.17.20 1 Cor. 5.4.5 Lev. 4.13 2 Cor. 10.4.5.6 rules given by Christ for such cases if your Churches be his Lastly why you for your part abide in knowen errors and keepe not the truth and commaundements of Christ As touching that you say though they be errors yet they are not fundamentall neither doe in their owne nature abolish from Christ the fit place of handling this point followeth in the second Exception and seventh Reason to which places I referre it Yet in the meane time because here we are treating of the Apocrypha books tell me whether in retaining them you retaine not such errors as your self account fundamentall c. For example the book of Tobit teacheth that †Tob. 12.12.15 Angels doe present and bring to memory our prayers before the Lord. Now this honour you know is peculiar to Christ who “ 1 Tim. 2.5 onely is the Mediator of Intercession That Apocrypha doctrine therefore is blasphemous and an error in your sence as I take it fundamentall Adde herevnto that * 2 Mach. 12.43.44.45 offring vp of a sinne offring to God for
they adde the persecuting also of such as do convince them Now when you have showed how your self vnderstand and how we are to walke in these according to the Scriptures from point to point then applie herevnto your example of Christ here alledged and see if you do not abuse it Mind withall that if you say Christ knew this as he was God you speak nothing to the question which is how men must walk toward men If you say he knew it as he vvas man then must you prove 1. that these Iewes were convicted in conscience that he was the Christ and yet denied and blasphemed him 2. that Christ knew this as he was man 3. that still he joyned in spirituall communion with them thus convicted 4. that the estate of your Ministers and people is such as theirs was then as touching a true Ministerie and constitution of the Church 5. that the same rules and proceeding is to be vsed toward your Church and members thereof afore they can be separated from that was to be vsed toward that Church and People at that time Mind also that the Apostles preaching to the Iewes though they knew not who were convicted in conscience who not yet * Act. 2. et 13. et 17. et 18. et 19. chap vpon their refusall of the truth offred did separate from all where they were And so Christ before had required them to do Mat. 10.14 Finally mind that mens consciences are blind ignorant corrupt and the heart of man deceitful and wicked above all things Who can know it but the Lord only which searcheth the heart and trieth the reines to give every man according to his waies according to the fruit of his works Ier. 17.9.10 It is erroneous therefore to hold as you do that we may not separate till we know all to be convicted in their conscience If this were to be done then neither separation from any people neither any true Churches should ever be vpon the earth because such conviction can never be either knowen of men or had in the world It doth and must suffice vs that the truth on the one hand and the errors on the other be made knowen and convicted that is be layd open and proved from the word of God by the testimonie of his servants and that we see men by words or workes refuse the truth and imbrace error and so judg themselves vnworthy of euerlasting life Thus for your Churches M. Iacob it sufficeth vs that in your Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of people they be proved the daughters of Babylon that mother of whoredomes Out of which God hath †Rev. 18.4 17.5 vve Ezec. 16.44 charged all his people without exception or delay presently for to depart If you or any other will not obey this commaundement of God but will still partake in the sinnes of your worship and Ministery what is it to vs We must follow Christ * Heb. 5.9 who is made author of saluation to such onely as obey him Neither may we †Ier. 15.19 returne vnto you but we must waite till God bring you to vs and make you partakers of the same grace in Christ Of your third generall point here idly mentioned and absurdly gathered I have spoken before Pag. 8. Next instead of aunswering you fall a marveling because I say Mr. Hus and other of the holy Martyrs did heare and say Masse to their dying day and some of them also acknowledg the Popes supremacy But why do you not also marvell that I sayd divers of them acknowledged some the Popes calling some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some Auricular confession and such like grieuous errors For these I ioyned with the other and of them you speak not a word Belike you thinke they may stand with the Gospell wel inough and if your Church had retained or now should resume them againe you would judg of them as of the other corruptions remaining among you Yet mind withall 1. that thus you make a way for mo popish enormities to be mainteined and to prevaile apace in your Church as “ Hovv say you to those Popish doctrines novv spreading among you of Christes soule descēding into Hel. of freevvill c. beginneth alredy very fast 2. And that you can no better nor otherwise defend your present Church-estate then you could if it also retayned seven Sacraments Purgatory Auricular confession c. Let the Reader observe this And beware you in time least a wo come vpon you for such halting and pleading for Baall Now for your marvelling at me for saying thus of Mr. Hus and other the Martyrs I aske you Saith not the book of Acts and Monuments the same yea say not the Martyrs thus much of themselves Why do you not then marvell also at them For these particulars it were needles to go through all the historie of the Martyrs specially seeing they are so plainly noted in their stories and every where among you the books are in your hands Yet because Mr. Hus is here spoken of by name and you are not far frō rasing him out of the nūber of the Martyrs I will first note some particulars concerning him and then cleare him and the rest from your rash condemnation In the historie of the Martyrs before mentioned we find that Iohn Hus vnto his death held 1. †Act. and Monu edit 5. pag. 561. seven Sacramēts 2. ‡ Ibid. pag. 581. a. 584. b the Popes office and the authority of the Church of Rome 3. “ Ibid. p. 566 b. et 574. Auricular cōfession to Priests and was himself a little before his death confessed and absolved by a Monke 4. * Ibid. p. 577 a. et 581. a. said Masse himself 5. †Ibid. p. 546 held that the substance of the bread was altered into the body of Christ and that Christs body which was borne of the virgin Mary is really and totally in the Sacrament of the Altar with other the like popish opinions Now you Mr. Iacob sticke not vpon some of these to inferre that then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest that so held and did vvere holy Martyrs Your reason is because therein are found errors plainely fundamētall vvhich of them selues abolish from Christ Among which no doubt but you reckon the Masse and transubstantiation specially Thus haue you cleane put out Maister Hus and other the servants of Christ faithfull in that which they saw from being any longer in the Catalogue of the Martyrs or accounted true Christians May I not then iustly returne vpon your self your owne saying Is this you that vvhite the toombes of the Martyrs and yet in fine condemne them for no true Christians for no holy Martyrs But you say the book of Acts and Monuments vvhither I send you affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Let the book it self speak for vs both In the end of Iohn Hus his storie thus it saith
* Act and Mon. edi◠5. p. 581. ◠He neither denied their popish transubstantion neither spake against the authority of the Church of Rome if it vvere vvell governed nor yet the 7. Sacraments and also sayd Masse himself and almost in all their popish opinions vvas a Papist vvith them Thus hath that book word for word What say you now vnto it What think you of these particulars and of that conclusion that not onely in these but almost in all their opinions He vvas a Papist vvith them Againe in the same book Hierom of Prage another Martyr speaking of Iohn Hus saith ‡ Ibid. pag. 584. b. he never maintained any doctrine against the Church of Rome but onely spake against their naughty life To which purpose may be minded also that the Hussites in Bohemia so called to this day for following Iohn Hus are for trausubstantiation and most of the popish errors and worship as grosse as the Papists themselves And to give an instance of our owne countreymen the same history speaking of Thomas Bilney who was burnt at Norwich hath thus * Ibid. pa. 921. b. As touching the Masse and Sacrament of the Altar as he never varyed frō himself so he never differed therein frō the most grossest Catholicks Mark these words he differed not therein from the most grossest How now will this and your speach agree who blush not to say that the book of Acts and Monuments affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Besides this bold vntruth of yours let the Reader mind how plainely you insinuate that if your Church had the Masse and the Popes supremacy so it were not in the largest and grossest sort you could defend their case aswell then as you do now by bearing the world in hand that these things might stand vvith Christ crucified c. Let the Reader mind and remember it I say no more It remaineth that now I cleare M. Hus and the rest of the Martyrs from your rash censure You judge if any of them held any errors that be fundamentall they are no holy Martyrs but abolished from Christ This I denie And you to proue it should from the Scriptures have showed first what it is to be fundamētall or of the foundation then that whosoever holdeth such error is abolished from Christ But you have done neither I know that here and everie where you give vs your bare word and obtrude vnto vs your owne fancies But your words are no Oracles nor your fācies rules for any to follow Handle these things therefore more soundly in your next And what you speak speak it frō the word of God In the meane time for better clearing of the truth and Martyrs I will show you my mind being ready notwithstanding to heare any that can show better from the word of God And so I pray you take this and all my writings First the word foundation is vsed in the scripture and therefore is of vs to be considered divers waies One is in respect of God and his election Of the foundation and fundamental points or of his Church and people called and sanctified in Christ 2. Tim. 2.19 Psal 87. Pro. 10.25 Another is in respect of the onely ground of all true faith and Churches which is Iesus Christ or of the first principles and speciall heads of Christian religion Mat. 16.15.16.17.18 1 Cor. 3.11 Esa 26.16 1 Pet. 2.6 with Heb. 6.1.2 A third is in respect of the Apostles and Prophets doctrine concerning Christ or of our receiving it and building therevpon Ephes 2.20 Rev. 21.14 1 Cor. 3 10-15 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Luk. 6.48.49 Now which way soever you take it there is no question but the Martyrs although they erred through ignorance of that time in some waightie points of Christs Religion which you call fundamentall yet were notwithstanding holy Martyrs For touching the first of the exceptions aforesaid Gods foundation remained sure and sealed vnto them so as the Lord knew them to be his and they also were sanctified both to witnes vnto death the truth then called in question and to depart from the contrarie iniquitie Touching the second and third they both beleeved in Iesus Christ as it pleased God to reveale him in their age by the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles and they built firmely therevpon not stumbling at the word and disobeying it as is the manner of most now a daies but obeying and holding it forth vnto death So as when the stormes and floods of persecution beat vpon them they were not shaken from the truth they testified but remained constant to the end even when the politick Statutes of Princes the subtill arguments of the learned the earnest perswasion of their friends the great losse of their goods liberty estimation in the world finally the most cruell vsage and tirannie of the Adversaries as it were so many waves and tempests stronglie assailed to drive them a contrarie course Thus were they faithfull to God and loved not their lives vnto death as their Martyrdome proclaimeth to all the world howsoever you could be content it seemeth for any the more advantage to your selves to lay their honour in the dust Secondly in this question we are to discerne betweeen the errors them selves and between the persons that hold them The errours may in their nature be fundamentall as you speak and yet the persons erring therein of ignorance not striving against the light revealed but indevoring to walk faithfully in the truth they see may through Gods mercie in Christ be saved For example some of the Corinthians that denied * 1 Cor. 15.12 the resurrection of the body and some of the Galatians that erred about “ Gal. 4.9.10.21 5.2.3.10 and 6.12.13.15 Circumcision the Law although the errors were in their owne nature fundamentall as you will not deme yet might they that dyed in them before Paules epistles came to those Churches thereabout be saved of God As we * 1 Cor. 11.30.31.32 read that some were dead and chastised of God a-about their abuse of the Sacrament yet not condemned with the world Likewise of Abijah the sonne of Ieroboam that made Israell to sinne the ‡ 1 King 14.1.13 Scripture recordeth that God shewed him mercie because in him was found some goodnes toward the Lord God of Israell Where marke those words some goodnes By which appeareth that although he were as the rest in that generall apostasie of Israell which your self account fundamētal yet having some goodnes in him towards the Lord he found mercie at his hands Furthermore at this day concerning the errors of the Lutherans about cōsubstantiation and the person of Christ of the Anabaptists about Christs humanitie and denying Baptisme to the seed of the faithfull of the Papistes about trāsubstantiation the Popes supremacie c. I suppose that you will graunt both that these errors be fundamentall as touching the nature of the errors thēselves and that yet
notwithstaÌ„ding God saveth some LutheraÌ„s Anabaptists Papists erring in the points aforesaid If you denie it let vs have a sound aunswer to that profession of the Papists touching Christs Mediation which by themselves is mentioned in their Annotations vpon the new Testament where they professe that they hold * Rhemâ—â— Annot. vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Christ by nature to be truely both God and man to be that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his bloud as a ful and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes himself without need of any redemption never subiect to possibility of sinning againe to be the singular Advocate and Patrone of mankind that by himself alone and by his owne merites procureth all grace and mercy to mankind in the sight of his Father none making any intercession for him nor giuing any grace of force to his prayers but he to all none asking or obteyning eyther grace in this life or glory in the next but by him This doe even the Papists professe which you are well to mind Now though with it they hold divers fundamentall errors as in that and other their writings may be seen by which the multitude of them is turned out of the way of truth and salvation yet doubt I not but by this faith God hath saved some of them and mo at the first creping in of that Churches apostasie then since who in simplicity so beleev as is here set downe never hearing of the other opinions to be errors nor withstanding any truth revealed vnto them Now of the LutheraÌ„s and Anabaptists I hope so much the better as they hold mo truths and fewer errors then the Papists But to let those alone what say you to such of the Fathers of the Greek Church as held Freewill an errour which ‡ D. VVhiâ— book pa. 83. your selves teach and have published to be fundamentall and of it self damnable Or rather what say you to the Israelites in Egypt who though they were * Exod. 4.22.23 Gods church yet sinned in points by your owne account fundamentall even with ‡ Ezech. 20.6.7.9 the Idols of Egypt Will you say they were all condemned Either therefore we must discerne between the errors themselves what they are in their owne nature being so considered and between the persons holding them of ignorance and weaknes what mercy God may shew them in Christ or els you will coÌ„demne all of every Church wheresoever any fundamentall errors have crept in being through ignorance generallie received and so inwrap the Martyrs in like condemnation with their persecutors To give instance but of Iohn Hus it cannot be denied but he and they who martyred him agreed both in one touching the Masse transubstantiation c. Yet was Hus a faithfull witnes of Christ in the truth he saw and his adversaries vassals of Antichrist that sonne of perdition This I trust will suffice for the present to cleare the Martyrs of that vniust condemnation which you insinuate against them Now vpon this occasion note also that not onely some who erre in fundameÌ„tall points may be saved as is proved alreadie but ‡ 1 Cor. 6.9.10 some who erre not in any fundamentall point as you take it yet shall perish notwithstanding But of this see more hereafter in the handling of the 7. Reason following Further where I said that when Mr. Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. dyed Martyrs for the truth of Christ they neither had themselves nor joyned in communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministerie now pleaded for You insult greatly as if I spake knowen falshoods But stay a while Maister Iacob and see if it be not your self that make no conscience of vntruths First why ‡ Pag. 36. left you out those wordes of mine when they dyed Did you perceive that these words make the case plaine and witnes the truth with me against your assertion Or know you not that all the Martyrs then were first excoÌ„municate out of that Church and if they were Ministers degraded also from their Ministerie afore they were put to death Must it not needs then be true which I sayd that when they dyed they neither had nor ioyned in communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for Yea say not the Martyrs themselves and the book of Acts and MonumeÌ„ts as much To name but one Laurence Saunders when the Bishop of London had disgraded him said vnto him ‡ Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 1301. â— I thank God I am none of your Church And this was the case of them al being likewise dealt with as that book witnesseth Your Exception that Mr. Cranmer and Mr. Ridley stood vpon their right to their Bishopricks is of no waight against that I sayd It is not vnknowen that men do often stand against the vniust dealing of their adversaries in such things as notwithstanding they are willing inough to leave Whether it were so or not with them God knoweth Of this I am sure that where I spake of their not hauing you do in your Reply in steed thereof speak of renouncing And so you change my speach Which is not good though it be your vsuall dealing But yet by this appeareth that you can prove no vntruth in my speach howsoever you pretend and would gladly do it For if you could what needed you so alter and pervert the sence of my wordes And for my self if I had meant that Mr. Cranmer and Mr. Ridley had renounced as you pretend I could have joyned them with others in the sentence going before where I spake of Mr. Latimers forsaking his Prelacy which your self do here confesse to be true Besides I spake of the time when they dyed Martyrs you of the time before that But now what will you say to Mr. Ridley who as the * Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 1604. a. storie witnesseth at his degradation being bid to put on the surplus refused to do it and when they did put it vpon him with “ This vvas because he had ben a popish priest al the trinckets appertaining to the Masse did vehemently invâ—y against the Romish Bishop and all that foolish apparell calling him Antichrist and the apparell foolish and abominable yea to fond for a vice in a play This giveth more evidence of renouncing then of approving those things which before time he had liked to much Yet I denie not but even then he might be ignorant of the vnlawfulnes of the Prelacy as since that time God hath revealed it by his word and by that meanes it may be did like and stand for it more then otherwise he either ought or would have done But you say whosoever were Ministers then of the Prelates ordination they never renounced it though they dyed Maryrs If this were true and of waight you might by the same reason as well plead for the Romish Priests at this day
against all the transgressions thereof Or will it take hold of others and shall you staye free Howsoever your self seem careles what you say or do yet let others mynd their fearfull estate in that Church which retaineth such a multitude of Antichristian corruptions here graunted by your self to be against the Second commaundement the breach whereof God hath threatned to punish most severely And let it be observed that you who have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches and Ministery yet cannot deny that to be your estate Behold then to what issue your Defence is come in the end And now that you see hovv much I have made of this point at your request forget not to thank me for it in your next Reply The Scripture here alledged you would turne away from your selves by saying it is of Saul a presumptuous offender 1 Sam. 15.23 But that Scripture is not for Saul onely but for “ 1 Cor. 10.11 Rom. 15.4 others likewise And how will you shew that Saul was a more presumptuous and wilfull offender then your self and your Church Nay how will you shew that his sinne was meerly of presumption and wilfulnes The Scripture mentioneth two other causeâ— alledged by himself ‡ 1 Sam. 15.15 an intent to sacrifice to the Lord and †vers 24. feare of the people 〈◊〉 and your Church can hardly yeeld like reasons for your selvâ—s â—et if you could they 〈◊〉 not sâ—â—nd before God as this Scripture witnesseth Your clause of making your whole Churches so importeth that you take the case of some the 〈◊〉 not of all among you to be as Sauls was Then take you heed Mr. Iacob and the rest of like iudgement and practise as you â—re What I think of your whole Churches as towching their constitution I have often shewed before 3. For the third I meane it of the Antichristian abominations remayning among you and the like Neither could you be ignorant hereof seing I had a litle ♣ Pag. 63.64.65 before reckned vp so many of them in particular But you would not seem to know it because you can not prove the contrarie against it For proof of my assertion I alledg these Scriptures Exod. 20. 〈◊〉 compared with 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 Col. 2.8 Revel 1â— â—0 10.11 with ver 4. ver 12. Revel 17 1-6 with Hos 2.2 Prou. 6.27 28.32 7.22.23.27 9 13-18 2 Thes 23-12 2 Ioh. vers 9.10.11 Your inwrapping of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I have vnfolded before Pag. 8.41 Of all the reasons and differences which I named concerning you and them you picke out but one or two and the rest you passe by Now of them which you except against the first is that they suffred to death for the truth they saw Which my words you have altered thus that they for seeke all the corruptions they saw But beside the alteration your answer also is to be noted I alledged hat the Martyrs suffred to death for the truth they saw you answer this belongeth to many thousands in England no lesse then to them Can you now iustifie either your dealing or your answer Or can you shew seme hundreds of your Church in stead of your manie thousands For myne owne part if you had thousands of such I wish they were many millions But I feare that the contrarie of your speach is to true viz that there are many thousands in England so far from suffring death for the truth they see like those Martyrs as they will not 〈◊〉 imprisoÌ„ment bannishement losse of goods or the like for that truth which they do not onely see but which themselues have heretofore professed preached sued for to the Parliament c. So far are they from for â—alâ—ing all the corruption they see that I may vse your owne words Yea who can think otherwise by their estate and practise but if a Queâ—â— Mary came againe which God for did the 〈◊〉 of the Land would 〈◊〉 as the Prince beleveth and be ready to receive againe the points of Poperie now reiected as it was heretofore after King Edwards decease Marke that I speake of the face of the Land generally not of ever it particular person therein Of divers among you I have better hope as I have shewed before pag. 7. Yet for your generall state as the questioÌ„ is who can say but you are readie to receive any religion or any thing in religion to go forward or backward even as pleaseth the Prince and best fitteth your turne for avoiding of trouble and enioying your ease wealth safety c. And where then be the many thousaÌ„ds you speak of Or may wee think this is to forsake corruption and hold forth the truth as the Martyrs did Nay Mr. Iacob it is far from it And this you may note as a great difference between your estate and the Martyrs and ioyne it to the other mentioned before pag. 40.41 Now where you say there are infinite of your Church that know not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignorant of redemption by Christ c. How shew you this to be true Although if it be it is no great commendation to your Church considering what meanes of further knowledg God hath vouchsafed since that tyme. But of this point I will not stand so much I aunswer that to make your comparison hold you must compare with those learned men the learned among you and with the vnlearned then the vnlearned of yours now So shall your self and others see how vntrue your speach is Although I doubt not but even many of the vnlearned among you who have knowledge of redemption by Christ know also more of the corruptions aforesaid then those learned men did Towching that you speak of my self I have aunswered before Pag. 41. The second thing you except against concerning the Martyrs is that I said the things now controverted were not then so called in question and coÌ„vinced against them by the Scriptures as now they haue ben against you So I sayd Now speak you were they or not If they were shew it If not yeeld it But you would have me to meane this towching some few among you and not of all If it were but so yet then the thing is done more synce then in those daies But in deed the calling in question and conviction of these things hath not ben onely to some few as you would perswade The Admonitions have ben to the whole Parliament which are as the body of the whole Land and gathered from all the quarters thereof Your preaching likewise against those corruptions hath gone throughout the whole Realme So have your books written and printed against them Finally our testimony by word writing imprisomnent exile death is knowen throughout the Land Why then would you have me speak this of some few that here and there might be picked out And whereas you cannot deny but the case of some among
Devills Doth your Church hold them as things indifferent Or will not this prove a blasphemous opinion even in your owne judgement 4. Mynd withall how the Dispensations given by your Prelates for eating of flesh in tymes forbidden runne stil among you as they did and do among the Papists with this clause fana conscientia that is with a safe conscience and your Excommunications with this clause Ad salutem anioâ—e that is for the salvation of the soule Doth not this shew that your Churches hold not these things as you pretend but agree with the Papists therein Or hold you matters of conscience and salvation for things indifferent 5. Likewise for your Ministery and book of common prayer c. hold you them as matters indifferent or as necessarie for the service of God and salvation of your soules 6. And what say you to the blasphemy magik errors lyes in the Apocrypha books retained among you for the service of God Count you them also for indifferent things 6. Finally towching the Popish opinion of works whereof you speak know you not how they hold that their works merit not for the work sake but for Christs being dyed with his blood Yet notwithstanding this colour the point being well considered it doth highly dishonour Christ and derogate from his office of sole Mediation In like maner the Hierarchy c. that is the governement worship confusion and Ministery of Antichrist retained among you whatsoever you pretend for them yet being duly weighed do as towching your Church constitutioÌ„ abolish the governement and MediatioÌ„ of Christ except you could prove him to be Mediatour of another Testament then his owne Behold what your Indifferent opinioÌ„ will prove when it comes to be throughly scanned As you like it you may hold it still To end this point let the Reader note and not forget it how your self do here in playne termes confesse that your Hierarchy that is your Churches governement Ministery c. was never but nought This suites yll with the title of your book and gives small encouragement for any to serve God by such Ministery worship c. For Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Pag. 40.41 I have cleared them before froÌ„ your hasty censure Now onely let the Reader observed how this is alway the foot of your song Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. As if their errors were better warrant for you then Gods word for vs. CHAP. 10. The fourth Reason against M. Iacobs AssumptioÌ„ aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THe doctrines of faith conteined in that Book alledged would not make him a true Christian who holding them should also still execute or joyne vnto the Ministery of Mahomet that open Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Therefore neither can they make him a true Christian that holding them yet doth still execute or joine vnto the Ministery and worship of the man of sinne the covert Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 4. Reason THis your 4. ReasoÌ„ is Mahomets Ministery and Antichrists Ministery are both bad alike But the good doctrines of our booke of Articles cannot save a man that ioineth also to Mahomets Ministery Ergo the good doctrines of that booke cannot save a man that ioineth also to Antichrists Ministery which thing we in England doe I deny neither the Proposition nor Assumption And yet the Argument is too bad It is a fallacie of Equivocation as we call it Wee must therefore distinguish Mahomets Ministerie and Antichrists Ministerie have a doubtfull meaning If you meane the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in Mahomets or Antichrists assemblies that is in the Turkish or Popish Churches Then I graunt your whole Argument is * Both are nought alike as touching abolâ—shing vs from Christ. true But that wee doe so in England which comes in the CoÌ„clusioÌ„ Or that any ChristiaÌ„ amongst vs thinketh so That I vtterly deny And thus indeed that Scripture alleadged 2 Cor. 6.14 is rightly vnderstood But if you meane by Ministerie the outward manner of calling to the Ministerie and some outward ceremonies vsed by Mahomet or the Pope Then I flatly and absolutly deny your Assumption and your Scripture is answered before in the First Reason For I affirme and it is manifest That such errors being ioined with the good doctrines of that our Book doe not destroy faith and true Christianitie as before was shewed in the Second Exception Fr. Iohnson his Answer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 4. Reason Here Mr Iacob the light of the trueth doeth so dazell your eyes as you freely confesse you cannot deny any whit of the Reason And yet forsooth the Argument is too bad But why so There is you say an Equivocation in it and therefore you will distinguish I answer There is no equivocation at all in the words they are all plaine to him that hath a single eye and will vnderstand the trueth Therefore your distinction here is idle and frivolous Yet let vs see between what things you do distinguish It is between the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies and between the outward maner of calling to their Ministery and the outward ceremonies vsed amongest them An absurd distinction towching the matter in hand For first who knoweth not that these latter are of the very same nature with the former Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Antichristian and accursed before God aswell as the rest of their woship and service Or hath God in his worde giuen any commaundement more for these then for the other Secondly who seeth not that the Argument here is not of whatsoever thing vsed among the Turkes and Papists but of the Ministerie and worship which they have devised and executed As in particular of the publique offices of Ministery reteined among them of their maner of calling and entrance into them of their administration of them of their stinted imposed Liturgie their ecclesiasticall governement Canons proceedings c. All which in the Church of England are taken out of * Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3.4.7.8.9.10.11.12 that golden cup of abominations wherewith Antichrist that man of sinne hath made the Nations of the earth to be drunken As may appeare by comparing their Pontificals Canons and constitutions togeather If you will needes be otherwise minded then prove the particulars aforesaide by the Testament of Christ And marke here that you graunt the doctrine of faith conteined in your booke of Articles cannot make him a true Christian who holding them doth withall receive and ioyne vnto the publike worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies This you say you graunt as most true WherevpoÌ„ it followeth even by your owne confession 1. That such things may be ioined with the doctrines of faith receiued among you as in such estate you cannot be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither the truths which you
those things yet you are notwithstanding to be judged in this constitution true Christians and true Churches which hitherto you have not done neither ever will If you meane it not of them then you keep not the point and besides you must prove the contrary to that I have said Which you never go about For the note I gave you graunt it is most true that such things may be joined with the doctrines of faith received among you as will vtterly destroy it or to keep the words of my aunswer which you love not to do that in such estate you can not be deemed true Christians or true Churches neither the truths which you hold be avayleable vnto you Thus all the defence you bring of your Church proves to be quite nothing in the end For hereby is evident as heretofore I noted that your Proposition is not generall that both it and the Assumption are lame and vnperfect and so your whole Argument faulty and nothing els but meer Sophistry Your vnchristiā and false charge rests vpō your owne head as is proved already in the handling of your Proposition For which see Pag. 11. 12. 13. Lastly your reference is nothing els but a refuge whither still you fly to hide your self when you can no longer stand in defence of your Church What you aunswered to the first Reason is there taken away Now to shut vp all you sing againe the Cuckoes note your old vnder song Mr Crāmer Ridley c. Towching whom I have shewed before Pag 40. 41. how they may he counted true Christiās and yet your estate be Antichristiā nevertheles Chap. 11. The Fift Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson AS the golden vessels taken out of the Lords house had and vsed in Babylō of the Caldeās did not therefore make the Babyloniās true Iewes touching the faith Nor their bankets wherein they vsed them to be any of the Lords Feasts spoken of Leu. 23. but they still remained Babylonish people and banquets notwithstanding So the truths of the Gospel vessels as it were of the Lords house holden and received in the spiritual Babilō whereof that other was a type do not make the people so stāding to be true Christiās Neither their Ministery and cōstitution to be Christs But they still remaine the people Ministery cōstitution of Babylon notwithstāding See the proofs hereof in Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 compared with Prov. 9.17.18 Rev. 17.4.5 18.4 with 14.8.9.10.11 H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 5. Reason YOur Reason is this The materiall vessells of Ierurusalem were of the like power and vertue to sanctifie the Heathen Babilonians As the holy christian doctrines in that Booke are to sanctifie vs that holde togeather with them some Popish ceremonies and orders as indifferent things But those vessels were not sufficient to sanctifie those Babilonians Ergo Neither these truths of the Gospell can sanctifie vs. An absurd comparison The Proposition is most false and so the scriptures quoted Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 compared vvith Pro. 9.17.18 Revel 17.4.5 18.4 vvith 14.8.9.10.11 are as idely and vainely applyed See the Ansvver to the allegations in the First Reason before FR. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 5. Reason MY Reason is a comparison between the Caldean and the Romish Babylon also between the vessels of the Lords house and the true doctrines of the Gospell Now this you say first is an absurd comparison So belike if your grave judgement might goe for good payment the manifold allusions which in describing the spirituall Babylon the Spirit of God ♣ maketh to the materiall Babylon of the Caldeans are to bee accompted absurd allusions and comparisons As also the often alluding and likening togeather the * holy things of the Law with the holy thinges of the Gospell and the †transgressions then with the transgressions now which are so often vsed in the Scripture are in your account absurd allusions similitudes ♣ Rev. 17. 18. 19. chap. compared with Ierem. 50. 51. chap. Esay 13. 14. 21. 47. chap. * Esay 66.20.21 Zach. 14.20.21 1 Cor. 5.7.8 10.2.3.4 Col. 2.11.12 Heb. 13.15.16 1 Pet. 3.20.21 Rev. 15.3 21.10 c. †2 Tim. 3.8.9 1 Cor. 10.6 c. Heb. 12.16.17 Iude vers 11. Rev. 2.14.20 20.8.9 Secondly you say the Proposition is most false But in deed it is most true and most plainely taught in the fift of Daniel Vers 1.2.3.4 Lev. 23. chap. As was alleadged before when I first propounded the reason wherevnto yet you have given no aunswer So soundly you defend your cause Thirdly you say These scriptures Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 vvith Pro. 9.17.18 Revel 17.4.5 18.4 14.8.9.10.11 are idely and vainely applyed But how do you shew this Verie profoundly sure You bid vs see the aunsvver to the allegations in the First Reason And this is all the proof you bring Well wee have seen your aunswer to the allegations there and find First that the Scriptures here alleadged are not so much as once mentioned there Secondly that your aunswer to those which are there is most frivoulous and of no weight but against your self as there is declared Pag. 67. 68. Lastlie in your propounding the Reason here otherwise then I did myself which is a thing very common but nothing commendable in you it seemeth that being not able to aunswer any part thereof as I had set it downe yet you thought to helpe your self by this exception that the materiall vessells of Ierusalem vvere not of like povver and vertue to sanctifie the Heathen Babylonians as the true doctrines received among the Spirituall Babylonians are to sanctifie them But you shall finde if you will consider and compare togeather the Scriptures here alledged that the golden vessels being holy to the Lord and taken out of his Temple did asmuch sanctifie the Caldean Babylonians and their Feastes As the holy doctrines vessels as it were of the Lords Temple had amōg the spirituall Babylonians doe sanctifie them and their constitution That is neither of their estates and Assemblies are sanctified thereby at all For saith not the Lord That the setting of mens postes and thresholds how much more of Babylons enormities by his Postes and Thresholds that is by his truths and ordinances is so far from sanctifying as it defyleth his holy name yea is abomination in his sight and setteth a vvall between him and them that doe it Ezech. 43.8 And saith not the Scripture againe that the true doctrines in the false Church are among them as stollen vvaters and hid bread which though they be svveet and pleasant yet there also the mouth is filled with gravell and the guestes of those feasts and Assemblies are so far from being sanctifyed by those truthes in that estate as they are before God even dead men and in the deapth of hell Prov. 9.17.18 20.17 To conclude this poinct hath not an Angell from heaven proclaimed with a loude voice that
‡ Rev. 18.1.2.3.4.11 c 17.1.2.3.4.5 14.8.9.10.11 the spirituall Babylon notwithstanding any truthes she holdeth yet is so vnsanctifyed and abominable as shee is become a cage of all vncleane and hatefull birdes and that all her children Marchants that will not depart out of her shall receive of her plagues and damnation and drink of the vvine of Gods vvrath and be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angells and before the Lamb for evermore Loe here your fearfull estate which you notwithstanding will needes accompt holy and acceptable before God H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 5. Reason IN this your defence of your Fifth Reason you mislike that I call it an absurd comparison Where you affirme that the golden vessels of the Iewes were as available to sanctify the Babilonians as the truthes of the Gospell which wee hold are to sanctify vs. In deed your ovvne vvordes be holden and received in the spirituall Babylon By which termes you meane vs of England I trow But marke sir Is not this grosse Sophistry againe Is not this childish vanity open beggerie and craving of that which is the whole question that is That our Churches are spirituall Babylon and as deepely infected in Babylonish impietie as those old Caldeans If they were so infected I graunt in deed your Reason would follow But seeing it is the question and seing we professe our selves true Christians by those truths of the Gospell which wee hold and as by Gods grace wee are in deed Say I not well that this is an absurd Comparison Yes Maister Iohnson it is a most †To match those outvard vessells of no sanctity of themselves with our inward doctrines of salvation impious absurd and senceles comparison and void of common Reason And it inwrappeth wrappeth Maister Cranmer Maister Ridley c. within the same iniurious you irreligious consequence likewise All that you have of allusions and alluding betweene the Typicall and spirituall Babylon are meere delusions and vaine cavils Prove vs first to be spirituall Babylon Or els you fight with your shadow So that still I say those Scriptures quoted of Dan. 5. c. As also all the rest here packed togeather they are miserably and desperately abused according as I rightly referred you to my censure to your First Reason which for all your wordes you have not refuted The very same I say of your other two scriptures towards the end Prov 9.17 c. Rev. 18.1 c. As for Ezech. 43.8 I answered it before †Pag. 71. in your First Reason Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 5. Reason HAve you said any thing here first Mr Iacob but denyed the Conclusion If you have shew it If not confesse your owne childish vanity and open beggery c. For which the name of Sophistry is to good though otherwise it be bad ynough and the cognisance of all your Replies Now that this you say is but the denyal of the Conclusion thus I shew That which I conclude towching your Churches is this that they are not constitute according to the ordināce of Christ but according to the apostasy of Antichrist that is that your Churches in their estate are spirituall Babylon This I say is that which I have concluded heretofore and still do throughout my Reasons Exceptions Aunswers and now of purpose have I set it downe at the beginning of this treatise Pag. 3. Your denying of this then what is it els but the denyall of the Conclusion But this now being proved you are driven nill ye will ye plainely to graunt that in deed my Reason will follow Well Mr Iacob though it were long first yet thus you yeeld now at length Better late thrive then never Abide but by this and I trow you will not now any longer stand member or Minister of your Assemblies in that estate neyther condemne vs any more for separating from them Next howsoever it were for the question between vs yet the Proposition of the Comparison cannot but be true which in your first Reply you said was most false and now you would passe by because you can say nothing against it Yet mynd Mr Iacob that in denying it you did there agayne give the lye to the holy Ghost whose doctrine it is in these Scriptures Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 Levit. 23. chap. Prov. 9.17.18 By all this then you may see it is your owne dealing that is most impious absurd sencelesse c. thus to strive as you have done against so cleare a truth and everie where in your Replyes to fight against God and his word Which even here againe you cease not to do whiles you call such allusions and comparisons as the Scripture vseth between the typicall and spirituall Babylon meer delusions and vayne cavils How I matched together on the one hand the vessells of the Lords Temple and the truthes of the Gospell on the other The Caldean and spirituall Babylon may be seen in my former aunswer Which may suffice for any thing you say here both your marginall note and all the rest I could tell you further if it needed that Babel in English is confusion And that such is the estate of your Church even a confusion of all sorts of people good and bad Besides that your tounges are divided and your language confounded as it was in * Gen. 11.9 Babel of old whiles the Prelates the Reformists your self and the like as Neuters between both speak some one thing some another towching your Hierarchy worship Canons c. some †The Prel Formal that they are of God and to be kept and obeyed for conscience sake some ‡ The Sekers of Reform that they are of Antichrist and to be removed and witnessed against vnto death though every haire of the head were a life some ♣ Mr Iacob the like that they are neyther of God neyther of Antichrist simply fundamentally indifferently c. And thus as men confounded in your selves by the just judgement of God your toungues are divided you know not your selves what to make and account of these things or one of another I could also put you in mind that as the Caldean Babylon was so the spirituall Babylon is notorious for false worship towards God and for persecution of his people keping them in thraldome and captivity See M. Iacob◠Repl. before And that now the estate of your Church is such viz worshipping God after a false maner never prescribed by himself kept in subiection to your Antichristian Prelats and persecuting the people of God by prisonment exile death c. it is so evident as when you are called vpon to shew warrāt for these among you your vsuall aunswer is no other but after this sort * Pag. 37. Let the State which mainteyneth these things aunswer for them †Pag. 70. For my part I never thought other but our Church corruptions are against the Secōd
commaundement “ Pag. 72. It is no part of my mynd to iustify them ♣ Pag. 84. Our doctrine appointeth Gods worship by Mens precepts after a sort ‡ Pag. 92. Our Hierarchy was never but nought * Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason following I never intended much lesse professed to iustify our whole Ministery estate and maner of worship †His Replies to the 7. 8 Reasons We depart from and deny the faith in our Ministery c. but not totally simply fundamentally ‡ His 2. Reply to the 9. Reason I list not to medle with them I have no leasure c. Now then Mr Iacob say I not well that your Churches in this estate are spirituall Babylon And have I not made a fit comparison between it and the Caldean Babylon of old between the doctrines of truth in the one and the holy vessels in the other If the comparison be good strive no more against it but yeeld to the truth as you haue begun If it be evill convince it by Scripture whence I borrowed it as the testimonyes I alledged declare Vntill you do this which will not be in hast know that the Scriptures here cited are fitly applyed to the purpose in hand If you see it not feare least you be miserably and desperatly blynded And take heed you do not still runne on wilfully to destruction Remember what is written in Esa 6.9.10 Mat. 13.14.15 Ioh. 12 37-43 Act. 28.25.26.27 Towching the place of Ezech. 43.8 I have aunswered in the handling of the first Reason Pag. 80. For Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley c. I have also answered Pag. 40. 41. You that do so often tell vs of them if you had but so much as how of any Scripture for your estate is it like you would be silent therein Nay sure you would not spare much more to tell vs of that agayne and agayne And so let the Reader mynd it Chap. 12. The Sixt Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THe Samaritans those counterfeit children of Abraham Isaak and Iacob did publiquely professe that most excellent doctrine of the Messias to come the truth of which doctrine how powerfull it was to salvation the Scriptures testify Yet doeth our Saviour Christ repute them false worshippers of God because their worship was a mixt one framed after the inuentions of men and traditions of their Forefathers Therefore saith Christ vnto them Ye worship that which ye know not we worship that which we knowe for salvation is of the Iewes By which appeareth 1. That although the Samaritans professed this saving truth yet being false worshippers of God they could not truly challendge vnto themselves in such estate the benefite thereof 2. That the Iewes and they which held their faith being then the true Church and people of God to whom his Oracles were committed and to whom his Couenantes and service did appertayne Christ therefore accounted the Iewes and not the Samaritans to be the true worshippers of God and heires of salvation Iohn 4.22 compared with ver 20.25.29 and with 2 King 17.24 c. In like maner the people of these Ecclesiasticall assemblies staÌ„ding subiect to a counterfeit Ministery and worship being also commingled togeather of all sortes of people Though they professe some truthes which otherwise are available to salvation yet can not in such estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither can so standing challendge vnto themselves the benefit of those true doctrines which they professe because God hath not made his promise vnto any false Church or worshippers of him neither committed vnto any such but onely to his true Church and worshippers his service and holy things of his word prayer Sacraments Censures c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis your Sixt Reason is The Samaritans beleeving that Messias should come Iohn 4.25 were as neere salvation as we of England are But they were false worshippers for all that Ergo so are we for all our holy doctrines beleeved according to that Book of Articles I deny the proposition The Samaritans might know by hearsay and beleeve the Messias should come and Balaam did know it Nomb. 24.17 and the Divels doe now knovv and beleeve Iam. 2.17 Yet none of these beleeved in him It follovveth not therefore that they vvere as nigh salvation as vve of England In a vvord there is a Reason manifest These Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols vvith the God of Israel 2 Kiâ—g 17. Which vvholy destroyed the truth in them though they did reteyne some memoriall amongst them of Messias to come Pag. 62 Wherefore here take the Second Ansvver to the First Reason before But I vvill help you vvith an Obiection surely one fitter then all these The Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethell served not Pagan Idols Obiection but the true God after their ovvn deuises vvhich yet resembled the ordinances of Ierusalem 2 King 12.32 Amos. 4.4 Hovvbeit they were false worshippers onely for their false Ministery and outward false worship for all that they beleeued in the God of Ierusalem otherwise rightly Ergo so are wee of England only fot our false Ministerie and outvvard vvorship To this vvee aunsvvere also vvhat additions of deuices Ansvver and hovv grosse Idolatrie they held it appeareth not But surely it seemeth farre grosser and filthier then the vvorst is vvith vs But yet this appeareth cleerly that the conscience of euery of them euen of the simpliest must needes be conuicted that Ierusalem vvas the only place and ‡ My meaning vvas the Levites vvere not of Aarons line but the Prists onely Aarons line the only Priests Leuits Therfore they could not be indeed true vvorshippers nor vvithin the couenant nor neere to saluation vvhen they all openly rebelled and forsooke them desperatly vvhom the Lord had so expresly chosen Novv our assemblies throughout EnglaÌ„d haue not their consciences so conuicted in the Hyerarchie and Ceremonies Ergo vvee may be in the couenant vvhich they vvere not for all our corruptions Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis Reason as the rest you neyther propound as we did nor make aunswer directly and soundly to any part thereof Now that the nakednes of your answer and light of the truth may better appeare we will propound the Reason more plainlie in a Syllogisme thus The people and assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as to them in that estate the Covenantes holy things and service of God do not appertayne they can not in such constitution by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and asseÌ„blies of England as vnto them in that estate the Covenauntes holy things and service of God do not apperteyne Therefore the people and Assemblies of England can not in that coÌ„stitution by the word of
knovvledge So then your peoples ignoraunce which you plead can be no sufficient defence for your estate Or if it could yet it seemeth they of Israell might aswell have alleadged it for thēselves seeing the Lord witnesseth of them * Hos 4.1 that there vvas no knovvledge of God in the land And thus the Obiection also here brought by your self remayneth still vnaunswered Where you say Aarons Line vvere the onely Priests and Levites you are also mistaken therein In deed Aarons Line onely was the Priests but the Levites were generally of the Tribe of Levi though not of Aarons line But to let this passe We would know a sufficient reason why the true vvorship and Ministery appointed by Christ in his Testament should not be aswell knowne vnto you in these dayes as in the defection of Israell You say They could not but knovve that Ierusalem vvas the onely place Aarons line the onely Priests Well then Have not you the Scriptures asmuch as they had Or hath not ♣ Heb. 3.1.2.3.4.5.6 Christ the sonne ben as faithfull in the house of God and as plainly set downe his will for his true worship and Ministery in the tyme of the Gospell as Moses the servant was and did for the tyme of the Law Yea and have not * VVitnes the publik Treatises Sermons Admonitions Cōplaintes Supplicatiōs Demonstrations to the Parliament beside the bandes sufferings of many in this behalfe these by the word ben made manifest to the consciences of men in these daies and even to the high Court of Parliament representing the whole body of the land as the other were to the Israelites in the tyme of their defection Finally doeth not this Land stand in as open rebellion against and forsaking of the true Ministery worship and order appoincted by Christ to his Church now as they did then if not more open and greevous not onely for the causes aforsaid but because you have also †VVitnes the Pontifical Porruis Canons and Constitutiō of the popish your assemblies compared together received and still reteine a false Ministery worship and confusion of the Man of sinne that sonne of perdition and capitall enemie of the Lord Iesus Christ And yet moreover least you should be behind them in any thing and not every way farre exceed them do also ‡ VVitnes your prisons gallovves Statutes c persecute vnto bandes exile and death such as beare witnes to the truth of Christ against your abominations By this then is manifest that you have neither iustifyed your estate in respect of the Apostate Israelites nor answered the Obiection “ pag. 105. here framed by your self against your present constitution So that it also still remaineth vpon you as a testimony against your present estate We indeed neyther did nor needed propound it as a severall Reason amōg those we set downe because it is of like nature with those which we have already mentioned in the Second and Sixt Reasons here before alleadged Pag. 82. and 104. H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 6. Reason IN this your defence of your 6. Reason you say That the Proposition of your last syllogisme They that worship God after a false manner Pag. 106. are no true Christians is proved by the example of the Samaritans and that I answer nothing against it First I say there you sophisticate againe And it seemeth you can doe nothing else in argumentation For your Proposition is aequivocall and ambiguous If you meane they that vvorship God after a false manner that is totally or els Fundamentally Then I cleerely graunt it and that the Samaritans doe prove the same seeing they erred Fundamentally But your Assumption touching vs is then vtterly false You bring not a syllable or one letter to prove either of these tvvo against vs in all your writing neyther can you but bare begging of the controversie which is infinite ofte If you meane in your Proposition They that serve God after a false maner that is in part not wholly nor Fundamentally As namely in the Hierarchy and externall ceremonies as Cranmer c. Then I say and a vouch confidently in the presence of God that such may be true Christians though vnperfect in many things Yea infinite such have ben are and may be hereafter true Christians The contrarie whereof is no lesse then horrible blasphemy against God and his Saincts wherefore your Proposition is shewed to be againe sophisticall as also those were in your Third Exception First and Second Reasons Secondly where you say the Samaritans prove it I say nothing against it Marke you First I said the Samaritans might knowe by hearsay and yet not faithfully beleeve in the Messias You cannot be ignorant that there is a great difference between an obscure rumor which some of them might receiue from their neighbour Iewes and yet not haue it constantly beleeued and held publiquely among them as their cōmon faith If thus the Samaritans beleeued the comming of Messiah they are in no cōparison with vs we holde our most holy faith and doctrine by the worde professedly as the publique ordinance of our Churchs sheweth But furder let it be howsoeuer they held the comming of Messiah yet I answered The Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols wih the God of Israell which wholly destroyed the trueth in them And this is the very truth indeed howsoeuer you vvill not yeld it For you say that they broke not the First commaundement they worshipped not the Idols themselues nor sacrifised to them c. This is proued apparantly false in the Text. 2 kings 17.29 30 31. Every nation made their Gods and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made euery nation in their Citties wherein they dwelt 2 King 17. For the men of Babel made Succoth-Benoth and the men of Cuth made Nergall and the men of Hamath made Ashima And the Auims made Nibhaz and Tartak and the Sepharuims burnt their children in the fyer to Adramdech Anammelech the Gods of Sepharuim Therefore they vvorshipped the Idols of the Heathen and sacrifized to them and accompted them to be Gods asvvell as the God of Israell And so broke the First commandement and therefore they touch not vs in this question As the like I †pag. 71. haue truely and vvell declared before against your First Reason Your proofes ‡ pag. 107. that the Samaritans brake not the First commandement are nothing 1 That of Ezra 4.1.2 that they sought the Lord as the Iewes did c. vvas their counterfeit hypocrisy and false brag yea their divelish cōspiracy against the worship of the Ievves God Do you beleve their vvordes here in this place that they are true indeed I graunt as I noted before out of 2 Kings 17. they had a mixed vvorship something of the Ievves God but very much and as by the Chapter seemeth most of the Heathens Gods Pag. 107. 2.
intolerable blame and foule error whereof you speak As for example you professe the forbidding of meats and mariage at certaine tymes the worship prescribed in your Service-book and other the like by read prayer devised Homilyes Saints dayes Communion to one alone women to baptize Ministery of Priests and Prelates Apocrypha and the rest before mētioned Pag. 63. c. Are these after the rule of the written Law Next followed the Assumption to be aunswered which was this Such is the ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblyes of England as they worship God after a false maner Pag. 106. never appointed by him self nor allowed in his vvord This was proved by your confusion of People counterfet Ministery Service c. Now neyther this Assumption nor proof thereof did or do you denie So here againe you yeeld the cause And whereas you were told of hiding the fowle heap of your Abominations vnder the terme of Ceremonies you neither denie it nor amend it but do still vse the same fraude Mind it and amend it hereafter Now where you say it is a iust defence of your Ministery vvorship estate to be as tovvching the substance and foundation of Christianity sound and acceptable to God if your Assemblies throughout the Land have not their consciences convicted therein You may blush for shame to speak so sencelesslie If you meane that your Ministerie worship and estate is not in truth of the substance and foundation of Christianitie then by your owne words you stand in a straunge and fearfull estate besides that you speak not to the point in hand and so there is in your speach no sence at all Or if you meane that howsoever your Ministery worship and estate be whether approved of God or not whether Antichristian or whatsoever els yet your Church-constitution is for substance and foundation of Christianitie sound and acceptable to God then is your speach againe most senceles and absurd For how is it possible that your Ministerie worship and estate should be condemned by God Antichristian or the like and yet your Church-constitution either have the substance and foundation of Christianitie or be in such a way sound and acceptable to God To be disallowed of God and to be acceptable to him are contraries Finally howsoever your meaning be yet still your speach is senceles and vntrue For * Luk. 12.47.48 Hos 4 1-6 2 Thes 1.8 Rev. 14.9.10.11 sinne is sinne before God and so to be estemed of vs though not so grievous before as after conviccion And mens consciences often are convinced when they will not acknowledge it but withstand the truth notwithstanding ‡ Esa 6.9.10 Act. 14.2 28 23-27 Ier. 17.9.10 For both which see the Scriptures here quoted Which refute your assertion sufficientlie Besides that you have without all sence fancyed to your self such a maner of conviction as cannot eyther be knowen or expected Of which point I have spoken before Pag 42.43 How straunge is it also that you say next you knovv this is no iust defence of your vvhole Ministery estate and maner of vvorship vvhich you never intended you say much lesse professed to iustify How agrees this with the title of your book which you call A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Or will you seem to plead for that which you know can not be iustifyed Or will you have vs admit of an vnjust defence For your self confesse this is not a iust one Or is the Office Entrance Administration and Maintenance of some of your Ministers lawfull of others vnlawful and so likewise some parts of your estate and worship For you say here this defends not the vvhole Deale plainelie then Mr Iacob and shew which you hold lawfull which vnlawfull and your proof of both So will appeare I doubt not even by your self both that our separation is just and of necessity to be made from your Ministery vvorship c. and that your defence of them is most silly and senceles That which you speak of Aarons line I said before was a mistaking now I say it is a grosse error And you may be ashamed thus to hide it whenas you should rather acknowledge it when it is shewed you As for the meaning Pag. 105. which you have now coined and newlie added in the margent your words will not beare it Let others judge Thus the defence you make for your self is as absurd as that which you make for your Church After this you are earnest to perswade vs that the vvord of God though it be as plaine and full in it self yet is not so plaine for our vnderstanding vse novv as it vvas for the Ievves vnder the Lavv. An assertion most false most impious such as the very Papists I think would be ashamed of Was it ever heard afore that the Gospell of Christ should be more obscure for our vnderstanding and vse now then the Law of Moses was for the Iewes then Was not Christ think you as willing as able as carefull to explane it for our vnderstanding and vse as Moses was for theirs Or doth not Christ give his Spirit to his people now aswel as he did then Or hath he taken away those dimme shadowes and ceremonies to bring now a cloud of darkenes in stead thereof Or is it false which the Prophets foretold and the Apostles testify to be accomplished for abundance of knowledge and vnderstāding in the tyme of the Gospell far above that which was in the tyme of the Law Compare together these Scriptures following and see if the contrary to that you say be not most true Esa 11.9 Ier. 31.33.34 with 2 Cor. 3. cap. 4.3.4 Heb. 8.10.11 Ioel. 2.28.29 vvith Act. 2.17.18 Hab. 2.2 2 Pet. 1.19 1 Ioh. 5.20 Rev. 1.3 22.18.19 But you pretend three reasons of this your assertion So also did Saul of his action 1 Sam. 13.11.12 Neither was Ieroboam himself without colour for his devised worship as I noted before But this is the auncient cloke of sinne with which it hath ben woont alway to hide it self even from the tyme of our first parents Gen. 3.6.12.13 And tell me your self If pretences would serve what Schismatickes Hereticks Apostates factious or contentious men ever was there that had not store of such so both deceiuing others and being deceived themselves Yet let vs now examine yours You pretend 1 discontinuance a long season of the simple offices of Pastors Teachers Elders and continuance of the Prelacy all that vvhile So might Israell have alledged 2. Chron. 15.3 Had it therefore ben of waight And this pretence might far better serve the Papist then it can you who confesse Rome to be Babylon and know that your Prelacy Priesthood and worship came from thence not from Ierusalem Besides how will you prove this cōtinuance and discontinuance to have ben so manie thousand yeares as you speak of Yet if it were the word of God is still as plaine to
142. If Papists were no worse but in these errors onely they might be true Christians notwithstanding A most false and hereticall assertion As if the doctrines of Divels were not bad ynough to make them Antichristians Or as if they could both be true Christians and yet depart from the faith of Christ give heed to spirits of error mainteine doctrines of Divels c. All which they do even in these errors as the Apostle saith expresselie 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Now then do you not thus still both contradict the Apostle and forget your self Will not the conclusions also which I gathered from your words still follow herevpon And who then is it Mr Iacob that speaketh straunge vntruth and is vnreasonable vnconscionable wilful c. Yet mynd further Whosoever say you do forbid mariage and meats they do depart from the faith But both the Papists Church and yours say I do forbid mariage and meats Therefore both the Papists Church and yours do depart from the faith What part of this Reason now do you deny The Proposition or first part is the * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Apostles saying and now at length yeelded vnto by yourself The Assumption or second part is the estate and practise both of your Church and the Papists As I have proved before and you have left vnaunswered being not able to speake one word in defence eyther of their Church or your owne The Conclusion or last part then is and must needs be true This all men know that know any thing in sound reasoning And yet behold to shew your self a notable Dunse you shame not to trie about the Conclusiō yea and to deny it whiles you say they are true Christians notwithstanding Which is as much as if you should say they do not depart from the faith notwithstanding And what is this els but to deny the Conclusion Lo here your Clerklike skill in Argumentation your Christian and conscionable disputing But you note that in departing from the faith some do it more some lesse What then They that do it least do they it not to much Because your case or the Papists is not worse then the Iewes Turks Arrians Manichees c. is it not therefore bad ynough Yet thus you reason There are that depart from the faith more then wee and the Papists Be it so What will you conclude thereby That the Papists case and yours is therefore good ynough 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 or that you are not within compasse of ‡ this Scripture Or not subiect to wrath in and for such estate of your Church If this be your meaning speak it out plainelie and fumble not still in the mouth as you do But then note for your learning * Mat. 11 20-24 Chorazin Bethsaida Capernaum had more great works of God done among them then Tyrus Sidon or Sodom had Yet these who had lesse perished notwithstanding in the wrath of God To what purpose then do you reason in this maner I will shew you a better way Either iustify by the word of God your estate that in it you depart not from the faith or els yeeld to the truth which all may see so dazels your eyes as you can not go on but are driuen to a flat Non plus Where you say Men depart from the faith Simply and Fundamentally two wayes Although I might yeeld to both and your case be never the better yet you must prove first that the Scripture teacheth this distinctiō of yours For els what waight is there in it 2. Prove that there are no mo nor other wayes of such departing but these two Els your division is vnperfect 3. Shew that such may be found as holding the foundation in doctrine sound yet do desperatly professe and teach somewhat els against the manifest light that is in them Which is one of the wayes you speak of and for example of it you bring Martion and Tatianus But in these you prove it not neither I think will you prove it by any other in hast For is it possible that anie should both hold the foundation in doctrine sound and yet desperatlie professe and teach somewhat els against the manifest light that is in them If this be not a Paradoxe what is 4. Yet mynd that now you graunt Men may hold the Foundation in doctrine sound and yet erre fundamentally other wayes Thus you are quite gone Mr Iacob For heretofore you bare vs in hand that you erre not fundamentally so long as you hold the foundation in doctrine sound Pag. 28. 91. 92. 109. 111. This also was the ground of your maine Argument from your book of Articles Which now your self have overthrowen 5. Your distinction and acception of Fundamētall errors here and every where is such as whosoever hold them are vtterly abolished from Christ and cannot possibly have a lively saving faith vvithall This you must prove by the word of God if you will have it receyved Your words and distinctions without such proof cannot settle the conscience I have shewed before that some of the Martyrs dyed in such errors as your self account Fundamentall Pag 44. c. Shall we therefore say as here you teach that they were vtterlie abolished from Christ and could not possiblie have a lively saving faith withall God forbid 1 Some may erre in fundamentall points and yet through the mercy of God in Christ be saved failing therein of ignorance and not striving against the light of truth but laboring to walk faithfully with God in that he hath revealed vnto them For proof hereof I have ‡ Pag. 44. 45. 46. before alledged not onelie the example of divers Martyrs but such also in the Churches of Corinth and Galatia as before they receyved admonition and better instruction dyed in their errors which †pag. 28. 92. you acknowledge to be fundamentall And the like among the Israelites that dyed in Egypt “ Ios 24.14 Ezech. 20.5.7 where they had and vsed Idols which ♣ pag. 105. 109. your self esteem to be a fundamentall sinne wholy destroying the truth in them that do so Yet dare I not say but some of these might be saved by the mercy and in the truth of God which they embraced notwithstanding and namelie such who erred and dyed before that admonition came to them as did to the rest whereof we read Ezech 20.5.7 1 Cor. 15. Gal. 5. chap. Much more may and ought we to think thus of Terah Abrahams father of whom Christ came according to the flesh Gen. 11.27 vvith Ios 24.2.14.15 Not to speak of Haran Bethuel Rachel and the like then who did all of them serve the Lord by Idols Yea though it had ben so that Rachel had dyed before as she did presentlie after that cōmaundement given by Iacob to his houshold and to all that were with him for putting away the straunge Gods or Idols that were among them Gen. 35.2.3.4.16.18 vvith Gen. 31.16.19.30.34 24.4.15.50 11.27.28 Ios 24.2.14.15.23.24 So far
cause also it may be you were the more willing to passe by them being in deed afrayd and vnable to deale with them But to let this passe let others now iudge by that which hath ben said on whom the sclaunder lyeth And note you by the way that it is the common woont of sclaunderers to impute that to others vnder some pretence or other which in very deed they do themselves yea and that often with an impudent forehead Of vour vaine distinction of fundamentall errors and of the necessitie which lyeth vpon you to answer the particulars which I obiected about the Papists and your selves I have spoken ‡ here before If it stop not your mouth as I suppose it will yet let it teach you at least to take heed pag. 144. c. that your next Replie be lesse vaine and more pertinent then these former have ben In the last place when all other shifts fayle you would hale in againe to help at a dead lift those good but dead men Mr Cranmer Ridley c. whom you do neuer linne calling vpon as if you would give them no rest till you had brought them vp even from the dead to beare witnesse on your side But I have shewed before so great differēce between your case and theirs as they can not help you at all And now I tell you further as Christ hath said of old Luk. 16.31 If you heare not Moses and the Prophets neyther would you be perswaded though one rose frō the dead againe All these things considered I hope in your next you will either by the word of God iustify that you depart not from the faith in your leitourgy Hierarchy confusion of people forbidding of Meats and Mariage persecuon of the truth c. or els yeeld that in such estate you do in deed depart frō the faith and therefore cannot therein by the word of God be estemed true Christians Chap 14. The Eight Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumptiō afoersaid Fr. Iohnson IF the Apostle account them denyers of the faith and worse then Infidels and consequently no true Christians who though they doe hold other truthes of the Gospell yet provide not for their household Then how are such to be accounted who though they professe some truthes of the Gospell yet are not true worshippers of God but execute or submit vnto a false Ministery vvorship governement ecclesiasticall Which to be th' estate of the Ministery and people of the Church of England appeareth as aforesaid in their Canōs Articles Book of Cōmon prayer c. But the first is true 1 Tim. 5.8 Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 8. Reason THis your Eight Reason is thus much viz. Like as it is for a professor not to provide for his houshold so is it to hold the Hierarchy c. But that is to deny the faith and to be worse then an infidell Ergo so are we in England Those very answers to the last Reason do fully and flattly satisfy this also Eyther against the Assumption namely that it is not meant simply of denying the faith nor ‡ I meane Fūdamentally as in the last Reas before I have shewed wholy but in this poinct onely Or els the Proposition as being meant of such as neglect their families against the light of their consciences and the manifest instinct of nature Er. Iohnson his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 8. Reason FOr aunswer of this Reason you refer vs both for Proposition and Assumption to your answer to the last Reason But there I have proved those your aunswers to be vntrue Therefore yet we have no aunswer either to that Reason or this As for your new meaning now and not before noted here in the margent although it help you no more then the other yet tell me in your next where you learned thus to confound things that differ so much one from another For now your Reply to both these Reasons is such as if wholy and fundamentally were all one Or els what have you said But this Mr Iacob is to confound not to distinguish as you pretended before Pag. 135. 142. Men may erre fundamentally in some points of the faith who yet erre not wholy in all Pag. 92. 136. 142. The Papists at this day you confesse †your self do erre fundamentally in some things as in Iustification by works the Popes supremacy the Masse c. Will you therefore say they erre wholy in all Do they not howsoever they erre otherwise yet notwithstanding hold also these and manie other truths viz That there is but one God and three persons in the Godhead That he made heaven and earth and all other things and that of nothing That the Sonne not the Father or holy Ghost took flesh of the Virgin Mary That the bodyes of the dead shall rise againe at the last day c. Likewise for the Corinthians and Galathians of old Pag. 28. 92 of whom also you cōfesse that they erred fundamentally in some points as about the Resurrection Circumcision c Shall we therefore think that they held not anie one point of truth but erred wholy in all The Scripture it self doth witnes the contrary as may be seen throughout the Epistles sent to those Churches How sencelesse then and confused is this your new coyned meaning Towching which I thought to adde thus much here besides that which I spake concerning it in the last Reason before Let the Reader moreover observe that both there and here and in your Reply to the Reason following the power of the truth so prevaileth against you as you cannot but graunt you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery worship and governement ecclesiasticall As appeareth in your Canons book of Common prayer Articles Iniunctiōs persecution c. All which beeing mentioned as proofes thereof in these severall reasons when now they should be defended if you would maintaine your standing behold you are as mute as a fish therein And not that onely but in your Reply to the next Reason following Pag. 156. you graunt that in these things we may and ought to separate from you Which is directlie to yeeld vs the cause Thus soundlie you answer vs and dispute for your selves H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 8. Reason TO this your Eight Reason and defence thereof I aunswer as before if you take the Apostle to meane such neglecters of their houshold as deny the faith not Fundamentally nor against the instinct of nature but only against conuenient Christian providence and no othervvise then I deny your Assumption If the Apostle meane of such as neglect their families against the light of conscience and natures instinct then I deny the Proposition This I say because the Apostle may very well meane both these but in diverse measure and proportion of sinne but then this concerneth not vs Even so as I have said to your former Reason Note also if this were
19.9 Compare now your case with theirs and aunswer for your selves Are not you hardened against the truth Let your writings against it your imprisonning banishing and killing for it give evidence Do you not also disobey it Let your constitution and practise be witnesse And do you not speake evill of the way of God before the multitude Let the Sermons of your Ministers beare record your books also and yll speaches of your Prelates Iudges people c. Therefore by that Scripture you are to be separated from Wherevnto may be added in this case that which Peter saith Act. 2. Save your selves from this froward generation Thirdly where you obiect That Paule did not separate from all the other Iewes as he did from these Act. 19. and shew it by Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 I answer that the Apostles had good and iust cause so to do For first the Iewes were the people of God separated from the world and set in the true way and order of God Rom. 9.4 Levit. 20.22.24.26 Luk. 16.8 c. Secondlie Christ commaunded the Apostles when he sent them to preach his Gospell throughout the world that they should first preach it to the Iewes Luke 24.47 Act. 1.8 13.46 Thirdlie the Iewes ministery and ceremonies being the ordinances of God him self and given in writing by Moses the man of God were therefore now when they should cease to be buried with honor Act. 15.21 and 21.30.21.22.23.24.25 Heb. 8.5.13 and 9.1 c. These things considered we see the Apostles had iust cause so to do as they did in those places meÌ„tioned But what is this to the assemblies of England which never yet were separated from the world nor set in the way and order of Christ but stand in the “ Rev. 13.16.17 18.2 2 The. 2.3.4.8 confusion and defection of Antichrist whose Ministery and worship were never the ordinances of God but taken out of * Rev. 17.2.4 18.3 9.3 c. the whores cup of Babylon for which God never gave Commaundement to go vnto them but to depart from them as being daughters of the great Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 18.4 with 17.5 Adde herevnto that even from those Iewes notwithstanding the reasons aforesaid when they put from themselues the truth and would not receive it the Apostles departed and separated themselves yea and shook of the dust of their feet against them teaching others to do so likewise Act. 13.46.51 and 18.6 and 28.25.26.27 28. and 19.8.9 To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c. is answered before And hitherto of your generall Assumption which was this That the whole doctrine as it is professed and publiquely practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Which by the Exceptions and Reasons aforesaid is proved to be vntrue Touching the CoÌ„clusion Now let the godly Reader trying all things by the word of truth iudge whether we or you hold Paradoxes In that which you speak of the reformed Churches you are deceived if you think they allow your present estate and Church constitutioÌ„ Both their publique profession and practise witnesse the contrarie In the answer to Mr T.C. Mr A.H. c. as is declared at large in ‡ other treatises which yet remaine vnanswered Where you say we our selves heretofore have acknowledged and professed it viz your generall Assumption to be true you are againe deceived We have alway testified the contrarie both by our profession and practise and were and are therefore cast into prison appointed to exile and to death besides many other iniuries and grieuances inflicted vpon vs for this verie cause We have in deed acknowledged and do acknowledge that you professe divers excellent truths but that the whole doctrine as it is publiquely professed practized by law in England doth make you in that estate true Christians never any of vs that I know of did once acknowledge Therefore till you shew the contrarie I must needs think you do falselie burthen vs all and speciallie such of vs as you have mentioned here in particular To that of the Martyrs in Queene Maries dayes is answered already Yet for more evidence of the truth I will annexe some particular speaches and testimonies of the Martyrs themselves both then and in former tymes Maister Bradford speaking of the dayes before Queen Marie said ‡ Act. monum In the conference vvith Archb. Heath The tyme was when the Pope was out of England but not all popery And moreover * In his first speach vvith D. Harpsfild That the scripture knoweth not any difference between Bishops and Ministers which men call Priests And that the Scripture speaking of Bishops cannot be vnderstood of Bishops that minister not but lord it Maister Hooper held Hooper on the eight coÌ„mandment That a Bishop should be Bishop but of one Citie and that till the Magistrates bring them to this poinct it shal be as possible to heare a Bishop wade godly and simply through the Scripture in case of Religion as to drive a camell through the eye of a needle And againe he saith The primitiue Church had not such Bishops as be now a dayes And againe What blindnesse saith he is there befell in the world that cannot see this palpable yll that our mother the holy Church had at the beginning such Bishops as did preach many godly Sermons in lesse tyme then our Bishops horses bee a brideling Iohn Bale an exile for the testimonie of Iesu writing vpon the Revelation affirmeth The Image of both churches vpon Rev. 13.1 17.3 That the names of Blasphemy written vpon the Beasts head Rev. 13. and 17. are none other then the proud glittering tytles wherewith they garnish their vsurped authority to make it seeme glorious to the world having within them conteined the great mystery of iniquitie What â—her els saith he is Pope Cardinal MetropolitaÌ„ Primate Archbishop Diocesan Archdeacon Officiall Chauncelour Commissarie Deane Prebend Parson Vicar and such like but very names of blasphemy For offices they are not appoincted by the holy Ghost nor yet once meÌ„tioned in the scriptures This Iohn Bale held and published Then which what can be more full and evident against you And writing vpon the 14. of the Revelation he hath these words To receive the beastes marke in their forheads and hands Ibid. vpon Rev. 14.9 is both to agree to such decrees traditions lawes constitutions actes and proclamations as they vnder those titles have made onely for their owne covetousnes and pompe and neither for the glory of God nor yet for the right maintenance of the Christian common wealth And also to be sworne to the same to subscribe to it to give counsel or ayde to it to mainteine it by learning to minister in it to execute vnder it to accuse punish and put to death for it or to thinke it lawfull and godly with such like
And “ afterward vpon the 16. of the Revelation Ibid. vpon Rev. 16.12 expounding the drying vp of the waters of Euphrates to be this That the welthy Popes possessioÌ„s and pleasurs of the Clergy their false feates once known are and shal be cleerly taken away from them He saith thus In England by the ♣ Marke by this of vvhat time estate he speaketh even of such vvhen the Gospell vvas preched the Monasteries suppressed c. Gospell preaching have many of these waters bene dried vp in the suppression of the monasteries prioryes couents and Friers houses yet are not all things brought vnto Christs cleare institution A syncere Christian order cannot yet be seene there And a great cause why For all is not yet dried vp there The Bishops reigne still in asmuch vaine glorious pompe with as many Heathnish observations as ever they did as cruelly harted and as bloody mynded are they yet as ever they were afore No mischief vnsought to hold in the waters Marke how Winchester Durham Yorke London and Lincolne worke let vs also adde Canterburie with such other pleasant disposed Euphratines But be of good confort and pray in the meane tyme. For the holy Ghost promiseth heer that they shall wither away with all that the heaveÌ„ly Father hath not plaÌ„ted All which generatioÌ„ will the Lords breath coÌ„sume c. And to speake also of others in former tymes Iohn Wickleff held †Actes and Mon. 5. edit pag. 414. b. That Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons Officialls Deanes Canons c. be disciples of Antichrist William Swinderby said * Ibid. pag. 431. b. that what Pope Cardinal Bishop Prelate or Priest in manner of living or teaching or Lavves making contrary to Christs living his Lavves or any other ground put in ruling of the Church of christ but by Christ and his Lavves is very Antichrist adversarie to Iesus Christ and his Apostles Sir Iohn Oldcastle Lord Cobham witnessed ′ Ibid. â—ag 518. a. b. that the Bishops Priests Prelates and Monkes are the body of that great Antichrist And that the possessions and Lordships of the Clergy are the venime of Iudas shed into the Church Iohn Claidon burnt in Smithfield professed ‡ Ibid. pag. 588. b. that the Archbishops and Bishops speaking indifferently are the seats of the beast Antichrist when he sitteth in them and reigneth above other people in the darke Caves of errors and heresies And that the Bishops licence for a man to preach the vvord of God is the true character of the beast that is Antichrist Finally * In his treatises called The obedience of a Christian man The practise of prel William Tindall and “ In his Preface before his Antithesis betvveen Christ the pope Iohn Frith published That Archbishops Lordb. Archdeacons Deanes Officials Parsons Vicars and the rest of that sort are the disciples of Antichrist yea very Antichrists themselves These are the speaches and testimonies of the Martyrs in former ages wherevnto divers other such like might be added But these may suffice for the matter in hand Now compare therewith the publique profession and practise of England even as it is by law at this day and see whether your owne proofes be not so many witnesses against your selves But if it were so that the reformed Churches vve our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme gave allowance of your present estate and Church coÌ„stitution what would this help you when as the vvord of God condemneth you as we have shewed in the Reasons aforsaid and defence thereof Wherevnto if you will still iustifie your estate we require direct answer from point to point and that from the Scriptures which only can stablish the conscience Furthermore that the truth it self and your estate may better appeare what it is as also that you may not turne away or obscure the truth by your shiftes and evasions as your manner is I will here propound a few questions concerning the points now in controversie desiring your plaine and syncere answer therevnto by the word of God as you will answer to him at that day The questions are these Seven questions conteining the vvhole controversy betvveen vs yet vnansvvered 1. Whether the Lord Iesus Christ have by his last testament given vnto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary Offices with their Callings Workes and Maintenance for the administration of his holy things and for the sufficient ordinary instruction guidance and service of his Church to the end of the world or no 2. Whether the Offices of Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Helpers be those offices appoincted by Christ in his Testament as aforesaid Or whether the present ecclesiasticall Offices of Archbishops Lordbishops Suffragans Deanes Prebendaries Cannons Petticanons Priests Deacons Archdeacons Doctors of divinitie Batchelers of divinitie Chaplens or Housepriests Commissaries Officialls Proctors Apparitors Parsons Vicars Curates Vagrant or Mercenarie preachers Churchwardens Side men Clerkes Sextons and the rest now had in the Cathedrall and parishionall assemblies be those Offices appoincted by Christ in his Testament as is aforsaid or no 3. Whether the Calling and entrance into these Ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid their Administration and Maintenance now had and retained in England be the manner of calling administration maintenance which Christ hath appoincted for the offices of his Church above named or no 4. Whether every true visible Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world and the false worship and wayes thereof by the word of God and ioined togeather in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ And whether the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies of this Land be such or no 5. Whether the Sacraments being seales of righteousnes which is by faith may be administred to anie other but to the faithfull and their seed or in anie other ministery and manner then is appoincted by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession And whether they be not otherwise administred in the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies of England at this day 6. Whether the Book of Common prayer with the Feastes Fasts Holy dayes stinted prayers and Leiturgy prescribed therein and vsed in these Assemblies be the true worspip of God commaunded in his word or the devise and invention of man for Gods worship and service 7. Whether all people and Churches without exception be not bound in Religion only to receive and submit vnto that Ministery Worship order which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appoincted to his Church Or whether any may receive and ioine vnto another devised by man for the service of God And consequentlie whether they which ioine to the present ecclesiasticall Ministery worship and order of the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies can be assured by the word of God that they ioine to the former ordeined by Christ and not to the latter devised vy man even the man of sinne for the
First I alledged all the reformed Churches For who knoweth not but they all hold CoÌ„munioÌ„ with vs as Churches of God yet you dare either deny this or vtterly peruert it You tell vs of your Answers to Maister Cartwright Mr. Hildersam that are vnanswered If they be like to this your answer here verely they doe wisest in yeelding silence to such friuolous wandring wordes Secondly I alleadged your selues to haue acknoledged heretofore That our publique doctrine allowed would did make many of vs true Christians You too shamefully deny it And say you are for witnessing against it imprisoned banished c. Whereto I answer that if for these things you are troubled I know none can pittie you And because you say none of you euer acknowledged it I will therefore repeat your owne words Mr. BARROW in his last answer in writing to Mr Gifford intituled A fevv obseruations to the reader of Mr. Giff. last Reply Sect. 4. saith thus The next calumniations whereby Mr Gifford indeuoreth to bring vs into hatred with the whole Lande is That we condemne all the persons both men and women of England which are not of our minde and pluck them vp as tares wherein me thinkes he doeth vs open wrong if not against his owne conscience yet against our expresse writngs every where c. Have we not commended the faith of the English Martyr and 〈◊〉 thousand notwithstanding the false offices and gâ—â—â—â— corruptions in the worship they exercised not doubting but the mercy of God through their syncere â—aith to Iesus Christ extended and super abounded above all their sinnes seene and vnseene And what now should let that we should not have the same hope where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicity is found So that they neither neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. Aftervvard in the same Section The faithfull servants of Christ denying the whole constitution and government of this Church of England may iustly deny the people whilest they remaine in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church yet hereby not condemne them with any such peremptory sentence as Maister Gifford suggesteth Nota from Christ to cut them of from Gods election or from Christ Mr PENRIE in his confession of faith published in writing a litle before his death saith thus The trueth of doctrine touching the holy Trinitie touching the Natures and Offices of Christe Iustifying faith Sacramentes Eternall life and the rest established by her Maiesties Lawes and professed by her selfe their Honors and such as haue knowledge in the Assemblies of this land I acknowledge from my heart to be such as if I mainteined not the vnitie and held not the communion of the same doctrine with them in these poincts I could not possibly be saved For out of the communion of the true profession which her Maiestie hath established in these and the like truthes there is no hope of saluation lâ—ft But ioyne notwithstonding with the publique worship in the assemblies of this Land I dare not for the former causes I doe moreouer willingly confesse That many both of the Teachers also of the Professors within these Parish assemblees haue so embraced this truth of doctrine established and professed in this Land as the Lord of his infinite goodnes hath graunted them the fauour to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lordes election I professe before men and Angels that I iudge them to be meÌ„bers of that body whereof the sonne of God Christ Iesus is the head Onely herein the Lord be mercifull vnto them as to my self in regard of my sinnes That they are not vnder that outward forme of gouernement that Christ hath left c. And in his examination before Master Fanshaw lately published by your selves in print he confesseth the Churches of England to be the true Churches of Christ And what say you Maister Iohnson Have you not affirmed this thing your self to me and to Maister Philips namely towching your owne selfe when you were of vs That then you doubted not but you were a true regenerate Christian By vertue of what doctrine By extraordinarie reuelation Nay but by our publique doctrine of our Church when you stoode and continued a publique Minister of the same If you beleued so of your selfe and that truely vvhat letteth but you may beleeue the like of many Thousands novve Further vvhere you say my applying of the Martyrs is answered before Let the Reader iudge You shevv here that some of them misliked the Hyerarchie But it maketh stronger against you seeing for all that they themselves refused not to communicate and partake vvith them as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. After vvhere you say though the reformed Churches your selves and the Martyrs had thought otherwise then you now do yet all this is no so und proof against you Yes in deed that novv you hold a Paradoxe those vvitnesses are sufficient for that vvhere vnto may be added the vvhole Churches iudgment and practize vvith all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300. or 1400. yeares Chrysostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom. Austen Ambrose c. They all have thought that vnder the Prelacie and humane ceremonies men may be true Christians Then these witnesses are sufficient that your denyall hereof is a strange vnusuall opinion that is a Paradox Finally to trie vs you propound a many of questions But I leave all this superfluous stuffe to your self to be pondered First let vs cleare this present question and your Reasons hereabout Till then we have no leasure to medle further The Lord of his mercy open your eyes to see your extremitie whereby you do greatly hinder not helpe the truth Not a Firâ—â—â— for victorie but a lover of truth which you would seem to suffer for That you may indeed shew your self as becometh a Christian Pastor not impossible to erre but no lover of error * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not regarding your owne but the prayse of Christ in all things AMEN Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 9. Reason AS if your bare word were proof ynough still you say but never prove that this Reason is a fallacy Yea and all the Reasons before in your schoole-learning are likewise But the best is you are not the greatest Clerk the schooles have knowen Every of the Reasons is proved before to be true direct sound and strong against you And in all your Replyes against them what els have you done but played the Sophister and that notablie Apply therefore to your self what you speake here And of all these things now let the Reader iudge It seemeth verie absurd vnto you that I say you do here graunt vs the cause But what if the absurditie be found in your self Marke then first your owne words before Pag. 156. ‡ We graunt say you so far forth as we hold otherwise then truth so
far separate from vs. Now you hold otherwise then the truth in all the particulars †before rehearsed towching your Prelacy Priesthood Sacraments Book of common prayer Pag. 63. c. confusion of people c. Thus far therefore you graunt we may and ought to separate from you And further we do not at all For there is not anie truth you hold which we also hold not with you So then in expresse words you yeeld vs the cause And yet further you yeeld it againe in that you do not defend by the Scripture your Hierarchy worship doctrines Canons Articles Iniunctions c. received and ioined vnto by all in your Church How absurd then and vngodlie is your denyall of so manifest a truth And how distempered is your brayne that can not perceive so plaine a contradiction with your self Your two fould sence of the Apostles words is a silly fiction of your owne head without anie ground or proof at all If you will have vs think otherwise bring warrant for the particulars of your distinction from the book of God But I pittie you Mr Iacob For I see you are brought to a low ebbe Who knowes not that this is the very last refuge of all ennemyes of the truth when they are pressed with evidence of Scripture so as they can not avoid it then to faine distinctions and to cast about for the sence as if that were hard and obscure which in deed is most plaine and easy Look in Bellarmine Bilson Whitgift Bridges and whosoever els have written against the truth if their dealing be not such This then doth not aunswer the Argument but proveth it rather to be vnaunswerable Tim. 6.5 As for the words The Apostle saying from such separate thy self if now you would know from whom Himself telleth it as plaine as may be If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines c. from such separate thy self vers 3. But such is your case in particular As hath ben proved in your Prelacy and the other abominations of Antichrist yet taught and mainteyned among you Therefore are we bound by this rule of the Apostle to separate our selves from you Els should we aunswer it to God at that day Of your continuall vayne distinctions of fundamentally wholy presumptuously simply c. ynough is said alreadie in the handling of the for mer Reasons As also of Mr Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs Whom here you set before vs againe as coleworts not twise but ten tymes sodden Leave this vsage of them Mr Iacob for they have left you long synce See before Pag. 40.41 Next you tell vs we may ioyne with you and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them Prove this and you say somewhat But I doubt we shall find you as slow in proving as you are rash in speaking Mind but these particulars following which I will name for example Can we receive your Priesthood from the Prelates or execute it vnder them Can we ioyne to your Service book or anie part of your worship and Ministery Can we receive the word or Sacraments from your Ministers in that constitution Can we remaine members of your confused Assemblyes Can we stand subiect to your Prelates and their Courts Canons censures c. Can we I say do these or anie of them and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them In your next Reply Mr Iacob declare vs this riddle if you can And in the meane tyme I will attribute it to your distempered conceit that you do thus every foot forget and contradict your self and yet discerne it not But what will you say too if such as ioyne with you in anie part of your worship suppose it be the best become thereby partakers of your whole worship and constitution even of the worst things that are among you therein To make it plaine and certaine vnto you mynd these proofs In Israell †1 Cor. 10.18 they that did eate of the sacrifices as “ 2 Sam. 1.4.5 the people might were thereby partakers of the whole Iewish religion yea even of the altar Vnto which yet they might not come at all but the Priest onelie Lev. 1. chap. c. Numb 18.7 Luc. 1.9.10 In Corinth the Christians that abhorred Idols and Idolatry yet when after the sacrifices were offred * 1 Cor. 10 14-22 8.4.10 they sate but in the Idol Temples to eat of the meats that had ben sacrificed which in †1 Cor. 10.25.26.27 other places they might have done became thereby partakers of the whole Idolatrous wprship though they were not present at it but as they thought abhorred it In like maner they which connnunicate in anie part of your worship become thereby partakers and guiltie of the whole though it may be neither you nor they so think So false it is which here you give out that we may ioine with some of your worship and Ministery and yet towch no part of your Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give them allowance For the Papists to omit that you aunswer not what I obiected you see and graunt readily that they are no true Christians but very Antichrists c. Yet for your selves though your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people false doctrines c. be meerlie Popish and Antichristian you will not see and acknowledge it Take heed least when you see yet you wink with your eyes and though you vnderstand yet you harden your heart because you will not be converted and healed Esa 6.9.10 Act. 28.26.27 For the question between vs let the Reader iudge how I have proved it and how you have quitted your self and your Churches Where you say the points of false doctrine in your Church are most falsly laid to your charge all may see here againe you have an hard forehead to deny anie thing and yet are so sottish you can prove nothing But you say you list not meddle with them at this present I easily beleev you They are so pregnant against you as it is no marvell if you have no list to do it Otherwise you shew list ynough to medle with anie thing that you think may cary any show against vs. But you must mynd the point is not what you list but what you ought to meddle withall You have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches in the estate wherein now they stand Therefore must you aunswer aswell for the false doctrines as for the true mainteined in your Church Els would the Papists iustify their case against you well ynough For this cause then must you aunswer aswell for your Book of cōmon prayer and other your books of Articles Canons Iniunctions c. as for that book of Articles which was published in the yeare 1562. For they conteine the doctrine and
do it from all And for your resistance whether it be such as you speak of or not we leave to the Lord who knoweth the hearts and wayes of all men It sufficeth vs as it did the Apostles and must do the servants of God in all ages that the Reasons of separation include and belong vnto you all even all your Churches Ministers and people in that estate As I haue declared before throughout this Treatise Towching the conclusion Therefore vntill you prove the contrarie which will never be mark what I say the Paradox still remaineth vpon you and your Church Towching the reformed Churches some of * your selves men of far better iudgement and learning then Mr Iacob have confessed and published In the first Admonition to the Parl. that you have all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome against you And further that you have an Antichristian Hierarchy and Popish ordering of Ministers straunge from the word of God and the vse of all well reformed Churches in the world Yet you like blind Bayard sticke not boldlie to say to the contrarie that all men know they hold communion with you as Churches of God First then reconcile your self Mr Iacob with your fellow Reformists at home And then your Churches Hierarchy and constitution with the Ministerie and constitution of the reformed Churches abroad And remember here that the Ministery of those Churches is not esteemed sufficient by yours As the Priesthood of Rome is The proof of both which you may see in the answer to Mr A.H. Pag. 96. With whether of these then I pray you do you hold communion Or do you not in deed halt as newters between both Mynd further that Mr Beza whose iudgement you know is worthilie reverenced and approved in all the reformed Churches speaking but of fower or five of your corruptions affirmeth that in the Antichristian Church there is nothing more intolerable Bez. Epist. 8. yea that your case being so it is not a corrupcion of Christianitie but in deed a manifest defection from Christ His owne words I noted before Pag. 73. Now when themselves do thus witnes and write of your estate how should anie think that they hold communion with you as the Churches of God vnles you could prove they do also hold it the Church of God which standeth in manifest defection from Christ I know in deed that you have long deceived them by the Apology which you published for your selves against the Papists In which you concealed from them all your corruptions and abominations By meanes whereof not hauing knowledge of the truth of your estate they have therevpon for a tyme thought much better of it then it doth deserve or will beare As even some among them alreadie vpon better information synce have acknowledged But of this matter and of your dealing therein Reason 6 I have written alreadie †in the answer to Mr T. C. And therefore for these things I do still refer you as I did The Answer to Mr Hild. such as it is now is published And so may the answer to Mr Cartw. be in tyme speciallie seing you do thus provoke therevnto In the meane tyme divers copies thereof are abroad in mens hands In which as also in the ‡ other Treatise A â—revisâ—o â—f the Minist of Engl. Pag 67. 68. 69. I have noted in sundrie particulars the testimonie of the reformed Churches against your present estate You Mr Iacob may account of these or anie other our writings as you please Your toungue is no sclaunder Yet till we be answered and that soundlie from the word of God all men of conscience will see and mynd how you bring nothing at all in defence of your Churches and Ministerie but frivolous and wandring words Next followeth our owne acknowledgement to be discussed For towching that bloody mind and speach of yours when you say if we be troubled for witnessing against your Church estate none can pitty our imprisonnement banishement c. I leave you and it vnto God a See the like before Pag. 112. who seeth and will iudge Onelie let the Reader note here “ againe that not the Prelates alone but you also the forward preachers and professors have wittinglie and willinglie your hand in our blood Mr Barrow is the first you name Whom together with Mr Greenwood you †At Tyâ—um by London in the yeare 1593. Apr. 6. killed in time of Parliament that the ages present and to come may know it was done with knowledge of the whole Land In all his speach there is not one word that the members of your Church are true Christians in that estate He testifyed vnto death and sealed with his blood that you do all stand in Antichristian estate I think your self will not be so shameles as to deny it Now in his speach here alledged by your self marke fower things which all do shew it is against you 1. That speaking of the Martyrs false offices and corruptions he deemeth them saved notwithstanding through the mercy of God which superabounded above their sinnes c. By which is evident that he thought them vnder the wrath of God in respect of their false offices corruptions had not the mercy of God superabounded above those their sinnes For mercy you know presupposeth misery and superaboundance thereof a great measure of sinne 2. He intimateth as if he thought that these their sinnes were vnseen of them as doubtles they were of manie of them yea and of all of them as towching that measure of knowledge which God hath synce by his word revealed therein 3. He declareth that he was far from cutting of all among you as Mr Gifford suggested from Gods election or from Christ Where marke that he speaketh of Gods election vnder which we also trust that manie of you are not of your present outward estate In his Disco of the false Church Ref. of Mr Giff. Conferen c In respect whereof here he saith the servants of Christ may iustlie deny you in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church A case very wofull and miserable Yet adde herevnto that which ‡ els where often he testifyed that your Ministery worship estate are Antichristian c. For which cause he could not ioine with you in such estate but separated from you and witnessed this against you vnto death himself so signifying at the very tyme and place of his execution So far was he from iudging you to be in that estate true Christians To make the case yet more plaine know that we dare not condeÌ„ne them of the Church of Rome with any such peremptorie sentence as Mr Giffard accuseth vs to cutt them all from Gods election or from Christ Doth it therefore follow that in the constitution of there Church we iudge them true Christians Nothing lesse Yet thus you shame not to reason 4. He asketh what now should let that we should not have the same hope as of the Martyrs
where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicitie is found So as they neyther neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. We also aske and say the same But now if you say this is your case both we and your owne works deny it For proof whereof see the differences between you and the Martyrs before specifyed Pag. 40. 41. At Thomas a Waterings by London 1593. May 29 Mr Penry whom you ♣ martyred also the same yeare his speach followeth In which likewise note fower things not one of them for you as towching the question in hand 1. The true doctrines established by Law and professed by her Maiesty their Honours and such as have knowledge in your assemblies he acknowledgeth to be such as if he did not mainteyne and hold them likewise he could not possibly be saved We also are like mynded And to put you out of all doubt we tell you further that if we did not hold and mainteine the true doctrines professed in the Church of Rome towching the onely true God the holy Trinity the Mediator Christ the Resurrection Life eternall c. we could not possibly look to be saved Yet do we not therefore approve their Assemblies to be true Churches or the members thereof true Christians in their estate 2. He separated from your Church as remaining in Antichristian cōstitution and professeth here that he durst not ioine with the publik worship of your Assemblies The causes thereof he mentioneth in the same confession which you conceale Of which see further in his aunswer to Mr Fanshaw hereafter following 3. He confesseth that manie of the Teachers and professors in your assemblies have so embraced the truth of doctrine established and professed in the Land as the Lord hath given them to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lords election he iudged them members of that body whereof Christ is the head and prayed God herein to be mercifull to them as to himself in regard of all his sinnes that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in the Church Now marke here 1. that this is no other thing then as we alway did and still do professe likewise Of which see before Pag. 7. 41. 2. That he speaketh but of some not of all the members of your Church Whereas your Assumption and Conclusion are of your whole publik Assemblies and so of every member of your Church as towching their outward stāding therein 3. That the perswasion he had of such among you was as himself noteth in regard of the Lords election not of their estate in your Churches constitution For towching this which is the question between vs here he prayed God to be mercifull to them as to him self in respect of all his sinnes Now I suppose you will not denie but his sinnes as also the sinnes of all Gods people deserve in their owne nature the curse of God if they were not forgiven in Christ So that by praying thus he acknowledged the estate of all even of the best among you to be such as for this verie cause you are everie one subiect to Gods wrath because you are not vnder that outward forme of Governement which Christ hath left in the Church Consider withall that even for Papists we may pray thus that the Lord would be mercifull to them in this that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in his Church and yet not hereby iustify them to be a true Church in their estate but rather the quite contrarie For Christ his Church wheresoever and among whomsoever it be is vnder Christ his governement not vnder Antichrists Neither have anie people promise of salvation in such estate 4. By all this it appeareth that he spake of them as iudging them to be members of the invisible and Catholick Church which conteyneth all Gods elect not onelie among you but among the Lutherans Anabaptists Papists and all other people whatsoever Now what is this to the poinct of the question controverted which is not of men as they belong to the Catholick invisible Church but as they stand members of some particular visible Assemblies in this or that constitution 4. His speach in examination before Mr Fanshaw why do you not set it downe in his owne words as you did the other before Belike you see your self it is against you howsoever you would pretend otherwise That all may know it thus it was Mr Fanshaw asked him this questiō Do the Martyrs teach you that there is no Church in England Mr Penry answered If you meane by a Church as the most do that publik professiō wherby men do professe salvation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Iesus Christ I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this Land For I know the doctrine of the holy Trinity the natures and offices of the Lord Iesus free iustification by him both the Sacraments c. published by her Maiestyes authority and commaunded by her Lawes to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truths without the knowledge and profession whereof no salvation is to be had These are his words By which you may see he saith no other thing here then what he spake in his Confession before obiected So as the answer given for it may serve for this also Or if that please you not you may mynd it thus If he had ben demaunded by Mr Fanshaw whether there were no Church of Christ in Rome and had answered thus If you meane by a Church that publick profession whereby men do professe Christ Iesus by nature to be truly both God and man that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his blood as a full and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes c. as the Papists do publikly professe Rhem. Annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5 then am I free from denying any Church of Christ to be in Rome If I say to this question he had thus aunswered would you have concluded vpon his words that he acknowledged the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ or the members thereof to be true Christians in their constitution Or do you see for the Church of Rome but not for your owne that such conclusion can not be pressed out of his words But yet further for the more clearing of this matter let vs marke what Mr Fanshaw next asked and he aunswered towching the estate of your Church and his separation from it Vpon his former aunswer Mr Fanshaw said thus vnto him Seing you acknowledge that her Maiesty hath established the truth in so many waighty points seing she hath commaunded the true Sacraments to be administred what mislike you in our Church and why will you not be partaker of these truths and Sacraments with vs Mr Penry answered I mislike 1. the false
Church in their Masse and Ministery as with yours in your worship and Hierarchy But further by this aunswer you yeeld that the Martyrs spake and wrote against your Church estate Which being so whether do you or we I pray you the better You in following the error of their practise Or we in receyving the truth of their testimonie And then if all that you say be graunted is it ought but this that you have the weaknes and sinne of their practise for a cloke of your standing in evill whereas we have the truth and soundnes of their iudgement for our walking in that which is good Now let others iudge which of vs follow them best and have the best interest in them And let it also be mynded that they then comming newlie out of the darknes of Poperie and being exercised also with other points of that religion neither did nor could so consider of this matter as synce their tyme in this clearer light it hath in our dayes ben discussed Lastlie if you will have this answer of yours go for currant then will I by like reason prove that you may also submit to the Popes authority and receive all the corruptions of the Romish Church And albeit that which I have alreadie said of the auncient Martyrs before be sufficient for proof hereof yet will I shew it you further thus The Protestants you know do vsually alledg against the Popes Antichristian authority and other corruptions of that Church the sayings of Bernard Beda c. Suppose now the Papists should answer as you do here This maketh stronger against you seing for all that yet they themselues refused not to yeeld to the Popes supremacy and to partake with this Church as being Christs c. What would you reply againe Either you must say as the truth is that this answer is wandring and frivolous or els you must needs confesse that by this reason of yours you may also receive the Pope and all that popery which is alreadie cast out of England and communicate therewith Which I pray God be not the issue of this your pleading for and partaking with the remnants of Antichrist yet held in your Church To that where I demaunded If it were so that the reformed Churches we our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme had given allowance of your present estate and Church-constitution what would this help you when as the word of God condemneth you c. You aunswer that those witnesses are sufficient for this that we hold a Paradox So the testimony of Man if you had it is of more force with you then the warrant of Gods word And whatsoever the Scripture saith yet to you it is a Paradox if it be gainsaid by the reformed Churches c. Blush for shame Mr Iacob and fear any more to publish such godles assertions and shameles Paradoxes All your clipping and perverting of my words will not help you Neyther your new supply of the whole Churches iudgement practise with all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300 or 1400 yeares Chrisostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom Austen Ambrose c. As if they had knowen and practised the Antichristian abominations now had in your Church But when you bring proof of this your lavish speach it will then be tyme ynough to aunswer it In the meane tyme heare what Mr Tindall that faithfull Martyr sayd speaking of the Prelates and Priests in his age for their so alledging the Fathers as you do As for the holy Doctors saith he as Augustine Hierome Cyprian Chrysostomus and Bede will they not heare If they wrote any thing negligently as they were men that draw they cleane contrary to their meaning and thereof triumphe they Those Doctors knew of none authority that one Bishop should have above another neyther thought or once dreamed that ever any such should be This is Mr Tindall his speach and observation Which you may mynd I note it now for this that you may see how your Forefathers alledged the Doctors and how it stands you vpon well to mynd what proof is brought from them whether it be for this point which here he nameth or for anie other corruptions of Antichrist retayned among you Some of which I have rehearsed * before in particular Pag. 63. c. for which I will expect your proof from such antiquity as you speak of ad Kalendas Graecas in deed never And yet I know that both 1400 yeares synce and before also they began to declyne very much But Antichrist notwithstanding came not of a long tyme after to that height and impiety wherein now he is to be seen and felt both in your Church and in your mother of Rome Note also that when all is said that can be in this matter it is but a Popish shift to fly from the Scriptures to the Fathers and an impious Paradox to exalt their sayings who are knowen to have erred in manie things above the word of God which alone is the rule of truth and can not lye at all Finally you say that to try you I propound a many of questions Yet they are but seven in all In deed I think it doth and will try both you and your fellow Priests to aunswer them Such superfluous stuffe they are And have you not read too Iob. 32.3 how ‡ Iobs frends condemned him and yet could fynd no answer Apply it to your selves and your dealing with vs. But you say you would first have vs cleare this present question and our reasons thereabout Well besides that is already done the deciding of these few questions will fully and plainly do it Let others iudge if it would not And mynd you then what you have answered To shut vp all you tell vs aforehand you have no leysure to meddle further Very like so You have leysure ynough to write book after book to no purpose yet you have not so much as to aunswer a few short questions which may end all the controversie between vs. He that can not see how you would shift of the matter and yet labour to withold the truth in vnrighteousnes what doth he see The Lord open your eyes Mr Iacob that your self may see and mynd it As for others that be seduced by you and the rest of your Prophets teaching lyes let them in tyme afore it be to late apply vnto you and themselves in such estate that which is written The leaders of the people cause them to erre and they that are led by them are devoured Esa 9.16 Therefore also let them all even whosoever feare God and will be assured of his mercy give no rest to their soules vntill with the Prophet they can say in truth of heart and shew it forth in their practise My portion O Lord I have said to keep thy words I have considered my wayes turned my feet into thy testimonyes I made hast delayed not to keep thy commaundements I have refrayned my feet from every evill way
2.14.15.16 Rev. 2.9 Another vntruth is that you say the sinne of your Bishops now is no greater then of the auncyent declining Bishops and them in K. Edwards tyme Whereas many wayes it is incomparably greater as I have shewed before Pag. 40. 41. 129. 133. 148. 162. 175. 177. 183. 203. Another is in that you say your sinne is no way fundamental The contrarie whereof see proved before Pag. 22. 73. 114. 147. And another when you charge me as if I held all among you to be godles and profane when I have alway thought and professed otherwise Yea even here I said your Church coÌ„sisteth of all sorts that is both good and bad better and worse some making coÌ„scieÌ„ce of their wayes according to the knowledg they have some not c. For which also see further before Pag. 7. 20. 21. 41. 78. 103. 168. 178. Finallie it is â—either vntrue also when you say this poynt towching the Hierarchy is not acknowledged in your Church even of ignorance in a thousaÌ„d to one Or if it be true it is a shame for you and all the Ministers of your Church who have not in this cleare light of the Gospell by the space of fourty yeares together made knowen vnto the people so great a point of Antichristianity as the Hierarchy is Which is the verie sinewes and strength of the Popes Religion As I feare wofull experience will teach you further if yet you do not see and feel it ynough But of this also I have spoken before in the Preface Section 6. Lo here the ornaments of your Reply and Defence of your estate The very naming whereof is sufficient to shew your folly and your Churches miscrie Yet least you should please your self in this course as also for the satisfying of such as desier further handling of these things I have spoken of them before more particularly As namely of sinnes fundamentall Pag. 22. 32. 44. 46. 51. 73. 114. 147. Of the Scriptures which here you alledge in the margent Pag. 51. and in the Preface Section 3. Of the Iewes Church Pag. 84. 161. 195. 197. in the Preface Section 5. Of the auncient Bishops Pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of them in K. Edwards dayes Mr Cranmer c. Pag. 8. 40. 41. 48. 49. 67. 77. 162. 182. Of your Churches estate and conviction Pag. 3. 7. 16. 27. 33. 42. 43. 53. 60. 61. 63 73. 78. 82. 94. 101. 103. 108. 120. 130. 131. 132. 135. 147. 155. 157. 171. 180. 188 194. 196. 200. c. Your caution against rash hasty iudging of any is very good and needfull We do together with you exhort all to beware of such dealing and to take heed they †iudge righteous iudgement as Christ hath commauÌ„ded And therefore that they be careful to search out and help forward the iudgment Ioh. 7.24 given by the Apostles and Prophets on the Whore of Babylon and all her Daughters Rev. 18.20.21 and 17.1.5.6.7 with Ier. 51 61-64 Neither let any think that this is to curse where God blesseth or to lay an hindrance and stumbling block before any but that it is in deed to reward Babylon as she hath rewarded vs and to beare witnes to the truth and syncerity of the Gospell Rev. 18.6 14.6.7.8 2 Thes 2.8 that it may the more be brought to light and received of the elect to eternall life To such we know Christ with all his ordinances is precious but in deed to them which be disobedient he is a stone to stumble at and a rock of offence even to them which stumble at the word being disobedient to the which thing they were also ordeined 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Take heed therefore you blesse not your selves in your disobedience of anie truth of Christ promising your selves peace though you walk according to the stubbernes of your owne hearts so adding drunkenes vnto thirst For such blessing God hath threatned to curse Deut. 29.19.20 Zach. 11.5.6 Malach. 2.2 For our selves we judge not any man It is the word of God that iudgeth which shall also judge in the last day Ioh. 12.48 By it therefore let every man trie and examine his wayes of what place or calling soever he be first for the worship he performeth vnto God and then for all the other actions of his life that he may so please God in this life as he may in the next be partaker of the glorie that shal be revealed Neither let anie be daunted with the reproches and afflictioÌ„s which accompanie the truth and witnesses thereof Even Christ himself the Prince of our salvation was consecrate through afflictions and he hath promised if we suffer with him we shall also raigne with him Heb. 2.10 Rev. 2.10 Rom. 8.17.18 2 Tim. 2.12 Therefore also we say with the Prophet as you do here and wish it might sound in the eares of all men as a trumpet Blessed is he that iudgeth wisely of the poore even of him that is despised c. Psal 41.1 To conclude your one word whereof you told vs a litle before is now become two words and all litle ynough For if your reason be good all me your self if a man might not after your example in two words conclude the Papists also to be true Christians thus That faith and religion taught in the Creeds commonly attributed to the Apostles the Nicene Councell Athanasius c. maketh the people that beleev and obey the same true Christians such as so living and dying may be saved But the Popish Church doth so hold that faith Therefore they are true Christians c. If your reason be good what will you say to this If you say they professe in word but do in deed both in their Church-constitutioÌ„ and practise denie it such also is your case Besides that the question is not whether anie among you may be saved by the truth you hold For we doubt not but eveÌ„ in the Popish Church God saveth his by the truth there held But the question is whether you or they can in your estate and Church-constitution be deemed by the word of God true Christians or true Churches such as none may separate from your worship and Ministery established among you And here I can tell you that even some of your selves have acknowledged and openly avowched your Churches case to be such Demonstration in the Preface as “ a man may be any thing among you but a sound Christian Yet I suppose you will not say they were desperate for saying so And if I be not deceived your self also have ben like mynded with them heretofore Sure I am you had need cleare these things very well and in anie case take heed you become not desperate therein Neither two nor three of your words will help the matter It is the word of God that must decide it between vs. Whatsoever you have replyed in the former Treatise I have there answered And now I leave it to all indifferent and Christian mynds to acknowledge your
publik Church asseblyes for such Christians as in that estate they are found to be by the word of God If by it either you or anie other can prove them to be true ones I have done If not then I wish you and all others to yeeld to the truth and no longer to strive against it Hitherto of the first Exception against your Comparison Chap. 3. The Second Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe Priest doth not celebrate or pronounce any marriage without the married first giue their consent But the Prelate make ministers without and before the peoples cōsent Therefore the Comparison holdeth not H. Iacob his Reply FIrst it is very vaine to make this any matter viz the peoples consenting either before or after the Prelats ordeyning For whether before or after it is in nature and value all one They in their ignorance having respect only to the Prelats act And if it were so that the Priest should sometymes marie a couple the Maide being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striving nor resisting and a while after shall willingly agree like Out of question there is now true wedlock betweene them Even so the case is betwixt the Church and the Minister 2. But what will you except here against those Pastors amongst vs that were first chosen by the people they first professing their consent and are after instituted and inducted by the Prelat Many are thus called amongst vs and the most have the peoples consent even together at their first inducting at least wise they have soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them even presently 3. Lastly in a word where you say the Prelats make Ministers without before the peoples consent Beza in Act. 14.23 Fenner against Bridges Pag. 148. We affirme that they make not the Pastor at all indeed and in truth but onely supposedly It is the Churches consent that maketh him truly whether before or after the Bishop that skilleth not If any thinke Imposition of hands to be simplie necessarie to the being of a Minister that is also an error and can not be proved Fr. Io. his Aunswer BEcause I see you need it Mr Iacob I will deale very liberallie with you I graunt that your peoples consenting whether before or after the Prelates ordeining is in nature and valew all one c. that is of no valew or force at all Whether you respect the Law of God which knoweth no such jugling of people and Prelates or the Law of your owne Church which appoynteth no such election by the people at all And thus too it is a very vayne thing for you to make this any matter viz our peoples consenting eyther before or after the Prelates ordeyning Yet remember that your Cōparison which I answered spake of people that had made choyse of a Minister before he came for ordination to the Prelate Therefore it was and is ynough against the Comparison to shew that the Priests can not celebrate mariage before the partyes consent ech to other Whereas the Prelates make Ministers both before and without the peoples consent yea and without their knowledge commonly It is vayne then in you to count such exception vayne I mynd also how deceitfully you passe by that clause without the peoples consent Therefore to discover your fraud and to see what better answer you can give in your next I will propound the Reason also thus The Priest doth not celebrate any mariage without the maryed first give their consent But the Prelates make Ministers without the peoples consent Therefore the Comparison holdeth not Your case of a Mayde being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striving nor resisting is meerly absurd and ridiculous Can it possibly be that one should both be meerlie enforced denying consent and yet not strive nor resist As soone may you make Fier and Water agree together as these two For to be enforced yea meerlie enforced must needs imply a striving or resisting against it Els what needed there or how should there be said to be anie forcing But you say if afterward she agree there is true wedlock True in deed if they both agree But then it is not by reason of anie thing done before which was sinfull altogether but by vertue of the present mutuall willing consent they having liberty and power to marrie together according to Gods ordinance But with your people and Assemblyes it is far otherwise seing you have not liberty or power in your estate to call a Minister according to the ordinance of Christ Which I have proved both in the first Reason before and in the rest hereafter following 2. To your demaund about Ministers first chosen by the people afore they are instituted by the Prelates I aunswer that if your people had power in your estate to chuse a Minister which they have not yet the receiving of institution and induction by the Prelates afterward being never ordeined by God were at least to set your thresholds by Gods thresholds that is your inventions by Gods ordinances Which were in very deed to commit abomination against the Lord and to defile his holy Name and you in so doing become so far from having him present with you as even by this meanes you set a wall between him and your selves Ezech. 43.8 And not so onely but do also rebell against the Lord and turne away from him in receiving an other Ministery for the administration of his holy things thē he by his word hath ordeined in his Church Ios 22.29 Let the Reader note here besides how you speak onelie of the institution and induction by the Prelates and closely passe over the Prelates first ordeining of them Priests and Deacōs Without which they are in your Church no Ministers at all neyther capable of anie benefice though the people should never so much make choyse of any Where you say most of your Ministers have the peoples consent at their first inducting or at least soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them even presently First I aunswer as before that your peoples consent in your estate is of no moment Secondly if this reason of yours be good then your dumbe Priests Non-residents and most Popish Ministers in the worst tymes and places are to be accounted true Pastors aswell as the best among you because vpon their inductiō the people submit to their Ministery and mainteyne them even presently For who knowes not that when once a Priest is presented by the Patrone and inducted by the Prelate to a benefice your people do and must joyne to his Ministery and for his maintenance give him their tithes c. will they nill they Adde herevnto that even the maintenance belonging to your Ministery is such as was never ordeyned by Christ and therefore neither to be received by the Ministers nor given by the people Which I prove thus 1. Your Ministrrs are mainteyned by Tithes which is Iewish and ceased with “
the Levitical Priesthood Or if you will Popish derived from the Iewes Heb. 7.12 which comes all to one end 2. Your maintenance is such as by it all maner Ministeryes once received in the Land might be mainteyned were they never so Popish or otherwise never so impious in anie respect 3 You are bound so to mainteyne the Ministers you have whatsoever they be and that also whether you will or not 4. On the contrarie the maner of maintenance now ordeined by Christ for his Ministers is such 2 Cor. 9.14 as belongeth but to them which preach the Gospell and must come from the people of love and duty in that behalf 1. Thes 5.13 Gal. 6.6 Rom. 15.27 1. Timoth. 5.17 1 Cor. 9.7 c. 3. Lastly you say in a word but a shrewd word that the Prelates make not the Pastors at all in deed and in truth but onely supposedly And now in your printed book for more certainty you affirme it with consent of others whom you note in the margent But for this point it needeth not For we yeeld it most willingly Yet note withall that thus you do both give the cause and condemne at once all your Ministery as vnlawfull such as may neither be received nor joyned vnto See it for plainenes sake in a Syllogisme thus Witnes your Articles Canons Iniunctions Statutes c. Your Law and Church admitteth no other Ministery as lawfull among you but that which is receyved from the Prelates But this say you is none at all in deed and in truth Therefore all the Ministery admitted amoÌ„g you by your Law Church is none at all in deed and in truth A very sound defence of your Ministerie such as all the Prelates and Priests in the Land may well thank you for with cap in hand At least wise if you could draw them to be thus mynded And here let me put you in mynd how once you wished vs to set downe nothing in answer vnto you but that which is the doctrine of our whole Church If your self have kept this rule it is well If not how will you aunswer it That which you have added concerning Imposition of hands I admit with these cautions 1. That it is not to be neglected where it may well be had Hebr. 6.2 Act. 6.6 and 13.3 2. That in Churches alreadie established it be done by the Eldership and where people first come into the order of Christ by the fittest among them being therevnto appointed by the rest of the Church 1 Tim. 4.14 Numb 8.10 And thus much of the second Exception Chap. 4. The third Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe people can not chuse their Minister vnles the Prelate do either before or after make him a Minister But a couple may chuse and take each other in marriage whether the Priest will or no. Therefore the Comparison holdeth not H. Iacob his Reply 1 VVE deny your saying the people can not chuse They can chuse They have power in Christ as being ChristiaÌ„s though they know not their right therein The ignorance of this simply doth not cut vs of from Christ nor from this holy priviledge no more theÌ„ the blind Papists have lost their right power of marrying together without a Priest because they are ignoraÌ„t of it 2. Againe where you say But a couple may chuse each other whether the Priest will marry them or no Marke That we speake of blind Papists that thinke that the Priest is the whole absolute and necessarie marriage maker If you say even such have right and power to marry though they be farre from knowing it and farther from practizing Then graunt the like in chusing a Minister to our Christians for so the Comparison importeth Els if you meane those words of others that be men of knowledge Then you fight with your shadow you touch not our question Fran. Iohnson his Answer YOu do still take for graunted that which is denyed viz that your people have power in Christ to chuse their Ministers c. I proved before that seing your people stand in AntichristiaÌ„ servitude to the Prelates their Canons Courts confusion c. they have not in that estate neither can have whiles they so remaine the liberty and power of Christ either to chuse them Ministers or to performe anie other action belonging to the Church of Christ And further that they can not in that estate by the word of God be approved true Christians For which see the former Treatise In that you graunt the peoples choyse to be an holy priviledge you condemne both your Church which rejecteth it and such of your people as seem to vse it whereas in your estate they do nothing els but profane it Why also do not such of you as know these things deliver everie man his soule from that slaverie wherein ye stand vnder the Prelates that so you might enioy and practise the priviledges and holy things of God as Christ hath given them to his Church 2. To that you pretend of such as be blynd and ignorant thinking thereby to help your self I answer that we speak of your people as now they stand in your Church-constitution For so you know the question is Now whether they be ignorant or whether they have knowledge it skilleth not for the matter in hand This we alledge that none at all of your people or assemblyes have in your estate the liberty and power which Christ hath given to his Church as the other haue for mariage So we have towched the question directly But in deed the fault is Mr Iacob Iren. adversus Valem lib. 1. cap. 1. that your Comparison and Arguments hold together like ropes of sand as “ Irenaeus said of the Valentinians Let the Reader note withall 1. How you match together and put as in an eaven ballance the blynd Papists and your Christians A worthy defence of your estate 2. How here you pretend to speak of such as be ignorant other where of Christians having knowledge of Christ feare of God faith c. Thus turning your self into so manie shapes and colours as a man can not tell where to have you or what to make of you Quo teneam vultus mutantem Protea nodo Chap 5. The fourth ReasoÌ„ or ExceptioÌ„ against Mr Iacobs CoÌ„parison Fran. Iohnson IF anie that by the word of God are not capable of marrying togeather as Brother and Sister c. do notwithstanding consent to take each other for man and wife yet are they not therefore lawfull man and wife So if a people and some man that by the word of God can not chuse take each other as Pastor and Church in their estate such as now is in this â—aâ—d do notwithstanding consent so to accept each other yet are they not therefore lawfull Pastor and Church H. Iacob his Reply THis is wholy presumed and from the Question also Like to the first Reason and hath the same answer as is made
to the first accusation there You reason against people not capable of a Pastor And we speake of true Christians which are alwayes capable You do ill therfore in comparing this action to mariage betwene brother and sister who indeed can not marry Happely you may likelyer compare it to a couple that have lived both of them wantonly Afterwards they marrie togeather and this marriage it selfe they vse not soberly nor temperatly Howbeit for all this I professe these two are truly man and wife notwithstanding Now even so our Churches and Ministers c. Fr. Ioh. his Answer KNowing the question Mr Iacob you might well see if you were not blynd that this is directly vnto it And so in deed it is like the first Reason that is it sheweth the folly of your Comparison and is such as you can not aunswer True it is that we speak of people not capable of a Pastor that is of yours in your Church-constitution And if you speak as you say you do of true Christians which are alwayes capable then speak you not of your people or Assemblyes in your estate And so it is your self that fâ—â—ht with your shadow and towch not the question but still presume that which you should prove viz that standing in Antichristian bondage to the Prelates and their procedings yet notwithstanding you are by the word of God to be judged true Christians having the liberty and power given by Christ to his Church whereof he is the head Till you prove this we must needs think that the comparing of your chusing a Minister in your estate to a brother and sister or such like that can not lawfully marry togeather c. is good and pertinent Your owne comparing of it to a couple that have lived wantonly and afterwards marry together yet vse not their mariage soberly c. descryeth that your self see the wicked and vnlawfull estate of your Ministers and people as now they stand howsoever you labour to hide and excuse it as much as you can And besides if you would describe your estate as it is in deed you should compare it to such as both had and do still live wantonlie and wickedly in adultery and vncleannes whom God will judge Let all such therefore among you as feare God delay no longer but with speed forsake your adulterous wayes and turne vnto the Lord that by his grace you may be “ maryed to him in righteousnes and judgement in mercie and compassion Hos 2 19.2â— and not still run a whoring after your owne inventions and abominations of the man of sinne whom the Lord will destroy Rev. 17 1-6 2 Thes 2.3.4.8 Numb 15.39.40 Ier. 4.18 Chap. 6. The fift Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe Priests joyning of the parties doth not make them Man and wife at all but onely the parties mutuall consent But contrarily in the present ecclesiasticall constitutioÌ„ of England the Prelats ordinatioÌ„ maketh the Minister and not the peoples choyse at all H. Iacob his Reply THe second Proposition we here flatly deny It is answered in our last words against the 2. Reason Fr. Ioh. his Answer YOu have an hard forehead Mr Iacob that can flatly deny so cleare a truth But for proof thereof besides your Churches-constitution I cite your books of Articles CanoÌ„s IniunctioÌ„s Statutes togeather with the consent of your whole Church and your book of ordering Priests and Deacons c. All which are so many proofs of the second Proposition and witnesses of the truth which you shame not to deny Is it not your Churches expresse Law that no other be receyved for Ministers but such as are made Priests or Deacons by the Prelates Yea that every one must to this end have his Letters of Orders vnder the Prelates hand and seale that ordeined him Can anie among you though he have the consent of all your people be Parson or Vicar or as you speak one of your Pastors not having the Prelates ordination and institution On the contrarie having these of the Prelate is it not sufficient for him though all your people stand against him Yea must not all the people whether they will or not receive and joyne vnto his Ministery being by the Prelate so ordeined and instituted as aforesaid The truth hereof is so well knowen and yll practised through the whole land as it is straunge any man should have the face to deny it But what wil not Mr Iacob deny when he knoweth not what to aunswer and yet hath not an heart to yeeld to the truth It must needs be a weak and bad cause that can not otherwise be mainteined then by such impudent denyals Your Aunswer to the second Reason before is there taken away and proved to be both against your self and against the Law and constitution of your Church Mynd it better next tyme. Chap. 7. The Sixt Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF a woman consent to a man that is another womans husband they are not therefore Man and wife So if a people consent to a false Minister they are not therefore true Church and Minister H. Iacob his Reply THis is answered as before in the Fourth Reason It carrieth some likelyhood indeed and some reason against Pluralities but nothing any further Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer NEyther the fourth Reason nor this nor any other of them are yet answered Let others judge And now your self are driven to confesse that this hath both likelyhood and reason against your Pluralityes Which is in deed to yeeld vnto it For tell me if your Pluralitie-men have not as well as the rest among you both the some calling by the Prelates which your Church appointeth and like acceptance of your people who joyne vnto them and mainteine them as you alledged before Pag. 208. The ReasoÌ„ then hath waight not onely against your pluralists but against all your other Ministers too seing they have all of them one and the same false Ministery received from the Prelates and executed vnder them Vnto which you may adde that the Ministery of all among you is such as Christ never set in his Church whether you look at your Offices from the hyest Prelate to the lowest Priest or at your Entrance according to your Churches Canons and Book of ordinatioÌ„ or at your Ministration by your Book of common praier and other your Canons and Injunctions or finally at your maintenance by Tithes Chrismes Offerings c. When you have well mynded these things you shall find this Argument reach a great deale further then to Pluralityes even to all the Ministers of your Church in your estate Make a tryal search the Testament of Christ throughout and if you can shew it to be otherwise If not give glorie to God and yeeld to the truth Chap. 8. The Seuenth Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison aforesaid Fran. Iohnson AS when a man and woman have consented each to other if the man do
and Ministery it is no vnmeet thing that you vse the weapons of Antichrist Which are chiefly two falsehood and violence Of the former whereof your book is full from end to end speaking lyes through hypocrisy And with the latter your Church which you would defend aboundeth as your violent courses against the truth will alway testify to your face howsoever you shame not to plead evē for this also For which see before Pag. 112.133.134 If you write agayne be better advised Rev. 14. 18. chap. Psal 84. Ier. 50. and 51. Chap. Or rather learne to lay your hand on your mouth and plead the cyuse of Antichrist no more But follow the Lambe whithersoever he goeth And give your self no rest vntill you appeare before God in Sion Forsake Babel Let Ierusalem come vp on your heart and help you to build the walles thereof though it be in a strait and troublous tyme. And this which I speak vnto you by the word of God I wish to be mynded of all that feare God and love the Lord Iesus He that hath eares to heare let him heare Math. 13.9 A Table of some particular things conteyned in this Book ANtichristian corruptions yet had in the Church of England Pag. 63. c. Antichrists of two sorts pag. 95. Of the Apocrypha books pag. 22. 60. The Chaldean and Spirituall Babylon compared together pag. 99. c. Of the Beasts mark Preface Section 3. Pag. 163. 189 Blasphemy in the professiō Ministratiō of the Church of Eng. p. 22. 60. 188. 189. Of the auncyent and late Bishops pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of the Name Brownists pag. 2. A true visible Church described pag. 14. 196. The true Church hath but one Lord-bishop the Lord Iesus Christ p. 163. 189. It is Christs ordinance that there be true offices of Ministery and a lawfull administration and to a faithfull people pag. 16. 19. 39. The Worship and Ministery of the Church of England is against the Prophecy Priesthood and Kingdome of Christ pag. 33. c. Of the Church of England Pag. 1. 3. 11. 27. 122 126. 161. c. Her confusion pag. 16. 103. 122. 200. Conviction pag. 42. 53. 78. 108. 130. c. Book of Common prayer pag. 27. 33. 63. 86. 96. 120. c. Dispensatiōs and Licences Pag. 65. 73. False doctrines pag. 122. 157. c. Fundamentall errors pag. 22. 114. 147. Excommunication and Absolution Pag. 33. 65. Hierarchy and Ministery Pag. 2. 23. 27. 63. 120. 122. 188. c. Holy dayes pag. 33. 64. Idol-temples P. 65. 121. 126. Indifferent opinion of the Hierarchy pag. 94. 120. 121. Persecution pag. 66 108. 112. 133. 177. 178. 197. Profession pag. 21. 60. 120. 171. Speaking lyes in hypocrisy pag. 150. 151. Will-worship and superstition pag. 27. 33. 82. 86. 87. The faith of the Church of England abolisheth the Second commandement and perfection of the Scriptures pag. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth all outward governement of the Church to be vnwritren and vncertayne pag. 28. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth the inventions of Antichrist to be Christs ordinances if the Magistrate so please pag. 61. 69. 72. The Preaching Sacraments Prayer c. in the Church of Engl. appoynted by mens precepts pag. 82. 86 87. None can ioyne with any Chutch or Ministery of Engl. but they must needs partake with their Antichristian abominations pag. 88. 170. The estate of the Ministers and Church of Engl. compared with Corahs c. pag. 32. 53. 130. 138. Difference to be put between true Churches having corruptions and false Churches making show of Religion pag. 92. 133. 161. 195. Things verifyed of the members of a true Church may be applyed to a false Church and yet not iustify their estate pag. 83. Of the Ethiopian Churches pag. 94. Of the error of Christs descension into Hell pag. 115. 116. Of the Foundation in Christian Religion pag. 46. 51. Some dying in fundamentall errors yet saved pag. 44. 45. 545 Some holding no fundamentall errors yet condemned pag. 48. 146. The falsest Churches and greatest Hereticks hold much truth pag. 47. 104. 106. 113. 136. 137. The Heathens acknowledging and worshipping of the true God p. 123. 124. The Papists bring more show of Scripture for their grossest heresyes then Mr Iacob or any other do for the Hierarchy c. pag. 129. A notable false doctrine of Mr Iacobs wherein it seemeth he is alone p. 172. Three speciall things to be noted in Mr Iacobs Replyes pag. 9. How Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded pag. 12. Popish shifts vsed by Mr Iacob pag. 26. 30. 32. 128. 136. c. Idolatry and false worship of two sorts pag. 67. 80. Visible Idols in the Church and worship of England pag. 120. Of the Iewes Church Preface Section 4. 5. pag. 83. 84. 89. 195. 197. Of Imposition of hands pag. 208. 210. Of the forbidding of Mariage and Meats pag. 73. 129. 135. 137. 140. 143. 147. Of the Martyrs pag. 8. 29. 40. 44. 54. 67. 79. 182. How the Ministers of England are made ordered pag. 188. 189. The word and Sacraments administred and received in the Church of Engl. in and from a false Ministery pag. 16 64. The Oath ex officio pag. 63. Of such as live and dy Papists c. pag. 146 Of the word Prelate pag. 188. Seven Questions yet vnanswered pag. 164. Separation from the Church of England graunted in expresse words by them selves pag. 156. 157. 169. The Sacraments administred in the Church of England with many corruptions pag. 15. 17. 25. 33. 64. Of Sacramentall speaches pag. 117. 118. Of the Samaritans pag. 104. c. The Parable of the Tares pag. 158. 173. Testimonyes of the Prelates themselves against the Church of Engl. p. 16. 200. Testimonyes of the Reformists against it p. 16. 27. 39. 79. 86. 103. 129. 176. 200. Testimoyes of the Reformed Churches against it pag. 17. 176. Testimonyes of the Martyrs and of former tymes against it pag. 162. 163. 177. 180. 182. 183. The Testimonyes alledged out of Scripture for defence of the Church of England are also against it Preface Section 3. 4. 5. 6. pag. 51. 52. 195. Of Tithes and maintenance of the Ministery pag. 209. 210. The Word of God onely is to be our rule and light of our feet pag. 22. 30. 34. 203. The word and ordinances of Christ as playne for vs now as was for the Iewes vnder the Law Yea more playne pag. 128. The obiections of Discōtinuance of Antiquity of Ambiguity in expounding the word c. answered pag. 128. 129. How the Lord abhorreth in his worship the mixture of mans inventions with his word and ordinances pag. 61. 101. 209. The doctrine and worship of Divels pag. 121. 122. The Lotd accounteth them to be made and worshipped as Gods whose ordinances are observed though it be for his worship pag. 80. 117. 122. Princes and Magistrates ought to abolish all false worship Ministeryes and to mainteyne the true which God hath prescribed in his word p. 199. Though they do not yet ought all the people of God to forsake the false and cleave vnto the true Preface Section 4. 6. 7. pag. 43. 46. 51. 101. 148. 158. 163. 170. 180. 184. 196. c. ERRATA PAg. 6. lin 9. read thus the Assumption And note downe in the Margent Pag. 86. and 87. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is after a sort or in part Pag. 183. Mr Tindals testimony there alledged is in his works printed together pag. 176. in the Book called The obedience of a Christian man Pag. 197. lin 41. sinne as Pag. 200. lin 38. starting hole Pag. 204. lin 9. that they FINIS
God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides The Proposition none will deny The Assumption is proved thus The people and Assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the covenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteine But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assēblies of England as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word Therefore the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblies of England is such as vnto them in that estate the Couenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteyne The Proposition was proved by the example of the Samaritans and by Christs speach concerning them in such estate Ioh. 4. 2 King 17. wherevnto you answer nothing to any purpose save that what you say is against your self For where you graunt That the Samaritans and Balaam knew and beleeved the Messias should come yea and that the Divels know beleev there is a God and that Iesus is the Christ the holy one of God Who seeth not that most excellent truthes may be acknowledged and yet they which so professe be not therfore in their estate true Christians or true Churches to whom the Couenauntes holy things and service of God do apperteine And where next you say The Samaritans beleeved not in the Messias it will be heard for you to proove it seeing you take beleefe in Christ so as it is had in the spirituall Babylon and her daguhters and seeing also the Samaritans professed and beleeved not onely that the Messias should come but even he which is called Christ and that when he came he would declare vnto them all things In so much as when Iesus was come and had spoken but to a woman of Samaria the Scripture witnesseth that many of the Samaritans of that city beleved in him for the saying of the woman which testifyed he hath tolde me all things that ever I did Iohn 4.25.26.29.30.39 Thirdly where you say The Samaritans ioined Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell whih wholy destroyed the trueth in them By this againe it is evident even in your owne confession both that such things may be ioyned with the doctrines of trueth as in that estate they which professe those truthes can not be iudged true Christians or true Churches to whom the promises and holy things of God do belong and that therefore also the Proposition of your principall and maine Argument is not generall but of necessitie admitteth limitation So then your maine defence falleth to the ground Of which see further Pag. 5. c. Moreover in that you say The Samaritans ioyned Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell 2 King 17. If you meane that they worshipped the Idols themselves ◠King 17. sacrifycing to them and accompting them to be Gods as well as the God of Israell and so brake the First cōmaundemēt as before you affirmed in your answer to the First Reason then I take it that here againe you are deceived The scripture sayeth they worshipped and sacrifized to the Lord God of Israell So as their sinne was against the Second commaundement in that worshipping the true God See before Pag. 67. 68. they did it in and by those Images as also by other devices of their owne and traditions of their predecessours That this was their case besides that it appeareth in the chapter alledged it is most plainly testifyed 1. First by themselves in the book of Ezra where they speak to the Iewes of the captivitie that builded the Temple saying * Ezra 4.1.2 We will build with you for vve seek the Lord your God as ye do and we have sacrifyced vnto him since the tyme of Esar Haddon King of Ashur which brought vs vp hither 2. Secondly by the speach that was between Christ and the woman of Samaria Ioh. 4. where it is manifest the “ Ioh. 4.20.21 22.23.24.25.29.30 contention between the Iewes and the Samaritans was not whether onely the true God vvas to be vvorshipped but both of them agreeing in that vvhether the solemne place of his vvorship vvas in Ierusalem or in the mount of Samaria c. 3. Lastly by your owne confession when ‡ Pag. 105. you say the Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethel served not Pagan Idols but the true God after their ovvne devices For the Samaritans as the †2 King 17.28.32.33 Scripture testifyeth worshipped the same God and after the same maner that the Nations did vvhich vvere caried from thence Now the nations thence carried were the tenne Tribes of Israel that fel away from Iudah to Ieroboam Who likewise ♣ 1 King 12.27.28.29.30.31 with 2 King 17.32.33.40.41 feared the Lord and served their Images that is God in and by their Images As now also the Samaritans did that were come in their stead Hitherto of your answer which seemeth to concerne the Proposition of the latter Syllogisme The Assumption was shewed by this that your Assemblies being commingled togeather of all sortes of people you have also for your vvorship of God a counterfeit Ministery and service devised by man This you do rightly vnderstand as we meane it of your Hierarchie and other abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. Which deceiptfully here againe you would smother vp vnder the name of ceremonies Touching which sleight of yours sufficient is said before in the handling of the First Reason But what say you now cōcerning the Assumption or proof of it Do you deny it Not so What then do you say for your counterfet Hierarchie vvorship c. Not a word but this That your assemblies in England have not their consciences conuicted in these as the people vnder Ieroboam could not but have their consciences convicted then touching their vvorship and Priesthood But first if this were so is it any just defence of your Ministery vvorship or estate that yet you see them not to to be vnlawfull as it could not be but they vnder Ieroboam saw theirs to be If this were a sufficient reason might not the grossest Papists plead likewise for their Ministery worship and estate as also the Vsurers extortioners and persecutors for themselves and their wickednes And by this reason God should not have sent Lyons among the Samaritans 2 King 17.26 because yet they knew not the maner of worshipping the God of Israell neither had their consciences convicted therein But Christ hath taught vs otherwise †Luk 12.48 that even that servant vvhich knovveth not his Maisters vvill and yet committeth things vvorthy of stripes shal be beaten though vvith fevver stripes then he that knovveth and doeth it not And of those Israelites aforesaid the Lord himself testifieth “ Hos 4.6 that they vvere destroyed for lack of
discover error as it was at first to reveale the truth You pretend also 2 the opinion of many auncient and late learned godly Christiās and 3 their expositiō of the Scriptures so as herein they cary ambiguity in infinite Thousands iudgment To both which I answer 1. That great antiquity was alledged by the Samaritans Ezra 4.2 Ioh. 4.20 and is also by the Papists at this day for their Prelacy Priesthood worship and other their errors of Purgatory Masse Prayer for the dead mixing water and wine in the Cup Iustification by works Extreme vnction Transubstantiation c. And the Scriptures too are so expoūded as they carry no small ambiguity in these points in the judgement of infinite Thousands Pag. 44. 45. 2. I have also shewed before how even some of the Martyrs learned and godly Christians held divers of these popish errors vnto death And therefore doubtles so took and expounded the Scriptures as vpholding them 3. And be sure whensoeuer you bring the many auncient and late learned and godly Christians you speak of for your assertion that as many such if not far mo both auncient and new may he brought to the contrary And what then are you the nearer 4. But in deed I deny this which you say There is not testimony from such antiquity as you speak of for your Prelacy and the rest of your abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. If you can therefore shew it in your next And mynd as for the rest so for the Prelacy in particular that you shew it to be such as yours in office entrance administration maintenance c. For although ♣ the mystery of iniquity began to work betimes yet it was both withheld a while from being revealed 2 Thes 2.3.6 7.8 with Rev. 13.11 and coming vp out of the earth it appeared and was exalted not all at once but by degrees So as it was a long season in this rising of Antichrist ere the Prelacy came to that height which now it hath with you and in Rome the mother thereof Search and see if it be not thus And in the meane tyme because I know you haue a prejudice of whatsoever I say heare a litle what Mr Cartwright one of your selves hath written of your Prelacy against D. Whitgift now Archb. of Canterbury Our Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons c. saith he besides the names have almost nothing common vvith those of elder tymes Againe If those Bishops vvere alive they vvould not knovv ech other For that they vvould think ours Princes and ours would esteeme them as hedge Priests not vvorthy of their acquaintance or fellovvship T. C. first Rep. Pag. 124. c. and his 2. Rep. Pag. 660. And in the same place comparing them togeather he sheweth vnanswerably in many particulars how farre they differ the one from the other So as your Archbishop in this poynt also hath ever since ben at a Non plus Now if you please you may take your Archbishops quarrell in hand and strive with as good successe as he for these and the rest of your Romish traditions 5. Finallie remember on the one hand how our grandmother Eue at the first entring of sinne into the world insinuated ambiguity in the word of God which yet in deed was most cleare and plaine Gen. 3.3 with Gen. 2.17 And mynd well on the other hand if at this day the Papists themselves bring not greater show of Scripture for their grossest heresies of “ Iam. 2.21.24.25 Dan. 4.24 Mat. 25 35.36 Iustification by works †Mat. 26.26 Ioh. 6.51.53 Trāsubstantiation “ Iam. 5.14 Extreem vnction * 1 Tim. 3.15 Ioh. 14.26 16.13 Impossibilitie of the Church to erre c. then you or any other either have brought or can bring for your Prelacy and other impietyes before mentioned Shall we therefore conclude as you do that they are not easily convicted though they be mistaken in these things God having so disposed in his providence to suffer this among Christians so long and so vniversally God forbid Or shall we think that Ieroboam and the Iewes of whō you speak had not their pretences and excuses aswell as you and the Papists I have shewed before that they had Besides also as Moses and the Prophets were plaine against their corruptions so are both they and the Apostles as playne against yours As for example that there should be no forbidding of meats or mariage no read or stinted prayer no mens inventions to worship God by no Priests in office of Ministery neither any Lord Bishops but Christ onely no baptizing by women no Idoll Temples no Apocrypha books or prescribed Homilyes for the worship of God no Popes Canon Lavv or Prelates decrees to rule the Church by c. Compare now with these the Calves Images Priests and places whereof you speak and see if the word of God condemne not the one aswell as the other Mind also how against these Gods voice hath sounded in your eares by the testimony of his seruants from tyme to tyme and how his hand hath fearfully smitten you with hardnes of heart and given you over to false worship and persecution of the truth besides all other impietyes raigning among you Then which what greater judgement can there be in this life Consider also the example of Corah and his companions whom the earth swallowed vp and fyer devoured from heaven Num. 16. chap. 26.9.10 Whose case although it be handled and compared with yours in the Second Exception before Pag. 33. 52. 55. 3. yet because of the childish excuses which you shame not still to plead vnder pretence of vvant of conviction darkenes of the vvord vnto you c. and because ‡ Before Pag. 37. your self also do judge their case to be most wretched and altogeather inexcusable therefore will I here againe put you in mynd to consider well with your selves and to examine by the word of God whether your sinne may not be esteemed in some respects greater then theirs 1. The Office and function which they vsurped was a true one Numb 16.10 Yours false 2. The things which they took and offred were such as God had cōmanded vers 18. Yours such as man prescribeth 3. The people to whom they would administer were a true Church vers 2.3 Yours a false 4. The reasons which they alledged divers of them were more seeming-good then any you bring vers 3.14 5. They thought they did well and as was meet vers 3.13.14.18.19 You at least manie of you know and have professed that your Ministery and worship is Antichristian and therefore evill and abominable 6. They had not the written word so as you have vers 5.7.9.10.28 c. Lev. 8. 9. chap. wiih Heb. 1.1.2 2.2.3 7. They sinned in one thing vers 10. You in an hundred 8. They were twise or thrice admonished and reproved vers 4.5.8 c. You ten tymes 9. They stood vp against Moses and Aaron vers 3 You
be here in the field of this world Mat. 13.19.24.37.38.41.43.52 compared with Gen. 28.17 1 Cor. 3.16.17 2 Cor. 6.16.17.18 Ephes 2.21.22 Mat. 8.12 16.18.19.28 21.43 22.12.13.14 25.1 c. Luk. 8.1 11.20 13.18 17.20 â—1 Ioh 1.49.51 Act. 1.3 1 Tim. 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.5 2. Tim. 2.20.21 3.5 And further if Christs meaning were that men should here still deare and partake with the knowen wicked and prophane notwithstanding that their estate then by this it would follow that there should neyther be vse of ExcoÌ„munication in the Church nor punishment of malefactors in the Common-wealth Which could not but be the destruction of both And is directlie contrary to the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles in other Scriptures As namelie in Mat. 18.17.18 and 26.52 Rom. 13.4 1 Cor. 5. chap. 1 Tim. 1.20 Finally this their doctrine aforsaid is against the expresse coÌ„maundement of God the heavenly order of Christ in his Church and the continuall practise of the Prophets Apostles and faithfull in all ages For which see these Scriptures Gen. 17.14 and 19 12-16 Lev. 18.29.30 and 20 22-26 Numb 16 23-26 Ezra 6.21 9.14 Esa 8.12.18 and .44.5 52.11 Ier. 15.19 Ezeh 22.26 zach 2.7 8.21 22.23 Mal. 3.16.17.18 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18 Act 2.40.41.47 and 5.28.29 and 17.4.7.34 and 19.9 Rom. 16.17 1 Cor. 1.26.27 and 5 4-7 2 Cor. 6.17 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 2 Ioh. vers 6.10 11. Iud. vers 3.21.22.23 Rev. 2. 3. chap. 14.9.12 17.14 18.4 20.4 5. That the people may tolerate ioine with open iniquitie in the Church vntill by the Magistrate it be redressed Which doctrine is contrarie to these Scriptures 2 Cor. 10.4.5 Mat. 28.20 Act. 2.40 3.23 4.19 9.26 19.9 1 Tim. 5.22 Deu. 5.32 12.32 6. That the gifts of interpretation and application of the Scriptures are a sufficient and lawfull calling to the Ministery c Which doctrine is both false and Anabaptisticall contrarie to the Scriptures Heb. 5.4 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Levit. 22.25 Ezech. 44.8.9 c Numb 1.51 3.10.38 16.40 18.2.3.4 Act. 1.20.26 13.2.3 14.23 7. That the Church may yeeld obedience vnto other Lawes Canons traditions officers and offices then God hath prescribed in his Covenant Which doctrine is contrarie to Gen. 49.10 Mat. 6.24 Iohn 10.4.5 Rev. 14.4 22.18.19 Heb. 3.1 c. 8. That the Church may read other mens words vpon a book and offer them vp to God as their owne prayers and sacrifices in the publique Assemblies Which doctrine is contrarie to the scriptures Esay 29.13.14 Rom. 8.26 1 Cor. 14.15 Mat. 6.6.9 15.9 Mar. 7.7 Exod. 30.9 with Psal 141.2 Rev. 5.8 8.3.4 Iud. vers 20. Ephes 4.7.8 6.18 1 Pet. 2.5 9. That it is lawfull to ioine with the Ministery of dumb and Idoll Priests and to receive the Sacraments at their handes Which doctrine is contrary to Mat. 15.14 7.15 24.24.25 Esa 56.10 Iohn 10.1.5 Num. 16.5.9.24.26.39.40 c. 1 Tim. 3.2 6.5 2 Iohn vers 6.11 10. That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to ceasse preaching and forsake his flock at the Commaundement of the Lord Bishops Which doctrine is contrarie to 1 Cor. 9 16. Esay 62.1.6.7 Ier. 48.10 Zach. 11.17 Iohn 10.11.12.13 Act. 4.18.19.20 5.29 Amos 7.12.13.14.15 2 Tim. 4.2 11. That the Church of Christ hath not alwayes power to binde and loose to receive in and to cast out by the Keyes of his Kingdome Which doctrine is contrarie to Mat. 18.17.18 Psal 149.9 1 Cor. 5.4.5.12 Num. 5.2.3 12. That it is lawfull for the people of God to heare notorious false Prophetes in their Ministery Which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 18.15 Mat. 17.5 7.15 2 Iohn vers 10 11. 1 Cor. 10.18 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 18.4 Iohn 10.5 13. That it is the Church and house of God the body and kingdome of Christ where he reigneth not by his own Ordinances Officers but the highest Ecclesiasticall authoritie is in the handes of strange Lordes Antichristian Prelates who also gouerne by Romish Cannons and not according to the lawes of Christs Testament Which doctrine and practise is condemned by Luke 19.14.27 Iohn 15.14 Rom. 6.16 Luke 22.25 26. 1 Pet. 5.3 2 Thes 2.3.4.8 Iohn 3.35.36 Rev. 9.3 14.9.10.11 19.14.15.19 14. That there may be a prescript Leiturgy and set forme of service in the Church framed by man Which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 5.8 Esa 29.13.14 Mat. 15.9 Mar. 7.6.7 Gal. 3.15 Iohn 4.24 Rom. 8.26.27 Ephes 4.7.8 Col. 2.23 15. That an Antichristian Prelate notwithstanding his dignitie as it is called spirituall may be a Civill Magistrate and obeyed of the people as their lawfull governour Which doctrine is contrarie to Rom. 13.1 c. Mat. 20.25.26 Mar. 10.42.43 Luke 22.25.26 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 17.14.16.18 16. That men may giue the titles of Christ Iesus to these sonnes of men his mortall enemies to call them their Archbishops Lordbishops Fathers Lords c. Which doctrine is contrarie to 1 Pet. 5.3.4 with 2.25 Mat. 23.8.9.10 Esa 42.8 and 48.11 Prov. 17.15 and 24.24 Esay 5.20 2 Cor. 6.14.17 17. That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to be mainteyned in his ministery by Iewish and Popish tythes Chrisomes offerings c. Which doctrine is contrarie to Heb. 7.12 1 Cor. 9.13.14 1 Thes 5.12.13 Pro. 27.26.27 Phil. 4.10.18 Rom. 15.27 Gal. 6.6 These are the points of false doctrine mentioned * before in the proof of this Reason Pag. 155. Which you have left altogeather vnanswered as also your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. And thus are you driven againe and againe whether you will or not to yeeld the cause That which you adde in the next place of your not wholy denying the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof is answered before in the second Exception and sixt and seaventh Reasons Where you say you are not herein like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Iewes Act. 13.14 and 16.3 and 21.23.24.26 and 3.1 you say nothing to any purpose For what though you be not in all respects like those Iewes Are you not therefore to be separated from So in deed you would conclude But then tell vs if Corah Dathan Abiram the Apostate Iewes vnder IeroboaÌ„ the corinthian infidels Papists c. might not alledge some particular exceptioÌ„ wherein they were not like to those Iewes Act. 19. Might not therefore separation be made from these The Scripture teacheth otherwise Num. 16.25.26 2 Chron. 11.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Rev. 18.4 Secondlie consider the case here spoken of Act. 19.9 and compare it with your estate and practise and see if there be not now as great and iust cause to separate from you as was then from them The words are these When some were hardned and disobeyed speaking evill of that way before the multitude Paul departing from them separated the disciples Act.