for it and all kind of obscurity contrary to such an end But to conclude If Scriptur be indeed so clear and easy for each capacity to read out of them to cull his faith and by them to frame his religion as sectaries pretend and this be indeed the judgment of all reformers wherfore do they themselves so multiply their catechists interpretours and expositours theron to wt end is all their preaching and weekly teaching this if it be indeed to any end must needs be either to expound faith or promote good works if the faith be clear enough the expounding is in vain as for good works they be long ago exploded bannisht out of the land and the empty preaching for aught I know may go foot it after them for words are in vain that tend to no end In fine whence comes all these diversities of opinions amōgst us here in England about matters of faith and religion and so opposit one to another and yet all grounded upon Scriptur Is that way so uniform and easy that leads men so diversly Nor am I satisfied at all in hearing som answer as they do that this coms not of Scriptur but the disorder and mistakes of men so lōg as I see it may wthout the Churches help be so shreudly mistaken I have reason to suspect mistakes in my self too if I once lean upon mine own spirit and industry as others do being my self no better than my neighbours And therfore I am loth nay I shall never be perswaded to leav the secure footing I now hav in all tranquillity peace uniformity wth the Catholik body of Gods Church by the result of truth delivered us by antiquity consonant to Gods word both written and unwritten and run my self with the confusd rout of disagreeing sectaries upon the rock of the Bible so apt as it appears by the event to be mis-understood and and wrested awry that I am clear of the opinion that no man out of the Church of God nor nobody of meē besides the Church of God understands it right Nor shall I be so mad now in my old age to go to dig my self religion having so fair a one already stamped to my hands wch all the art of men and angels put together can never mend Put him in Bedlam that undertakes both labour and hazard for naught LA. Do you think Sr Harry ever to perswade me that reading the Gospell I do not sufficiently understand the story of Christ his birth and life death and passion resurrection and ascension I fear not to affirm that I understand it perfectly and by your favour as fully as is necessary I do also conceiv well enough nor is it hard so to do wt his doctrin and miracles conduced to mankind I am moved also wth the divine discours of Christ and his Apostles Every Sabboth-day I go to Church and hear the word of God preacht I cannot see wt is more to be done he that reads and hears and beleevs the word of life cannot miscarry VIC And I for my part understand all that ever I either read or hear Alas when I was a young girle I was even then so towardly that I could read the Scripture as I ran up and down the house according as it is written write the vision and make it plane upon Tables that he may run that readeth Hab. 2. My husband and I every Sabboth day go hand in hand to Church together like the beasts that went into the ark by two and by two the Male and his Female Gen. 7.2 Surely this is sufficient for the salvation of all flesh KN. Madam you have now toucht upon the main busines wherein all sectaries be most pittifully deluded If they do but go to Church and hear a Sermon each one according to his fansy their duty is done and all his safe I will not stand now to examine whether the preaching be orthodox or no. Be it what it will It will not serv the turn I have already to my ability declared that the reading of Scriptur is no sufficient means of finding out our faith tho so much as it is it doth all of it confirm and verify the Churches doctrin I shall now go forward and evince two truths more First that reading or preaching of Gods word or the hearing therof tho it be indeed Gods word and pure and orthodox is not the essentiall or cardinal work of Christian religion Secondly that a man may hear and read it all his life time and yet be lost at the end both for want of grace and truth Our Lord wrote nothing himself as all men know yet notwthstanding he would never have failed either to have done it himself or commanded others to have done it if reading or hearing had been the great work of his religion to be imposed upon mankind For reading you know and expounding of Scriptur presupposes writing and his great work had been no other than to see things written if our great work had been no other than to read or hear them The four Evangelists afterwards put together some few heads of our B. saviours life and doctrin haply to carry about wth them in their bosom and entertain their converts wthall But we do not read that our Lord gave them any command to do so And this is an argument in your principles that he gave them none at all And as he gave them no order to write so neither did the promise them any assistance in their writing for all the concurrence we find promised either them or their successours was onely for the pectorall custody of their traditions orall doctrine and Church government And therfor since you deny the constancy of Christs assistance in the continuall government of his Church internall beleef and externall doctrin unto wch that assistance was promist affirming that the Church of Christ as it is not in it self infallible so hath it gone astray both in practis and doctrin me thinks you might wth as much ease and indeed more plausibility deny the same concurrence to any of the Churches writings whereunto it was never promist at all nor the Scriptur or writing it self so much as commanded by him wthout whose order nothing of force or autority could be done Nor it is to be thought but that Peter James Andrew and others of the Apostles had been both as able and as willing to write Evangells as the other four wherof two of them were but disciples of a far inferiour rank to the Apostles and indeed but companions and attendants upon them as may be seen in the Acts. Nay if writing had been such a capitall work S. Peter would never have neglected to have writ a Gospell himself especially when S. Mark his pupil and companion wrote one But this is an argument they had some greater work in hand and more nearly enjoind than that was Nor can we find by any monument that any of the other ten Apostles who were sent severall waies
right in all my thoughts and actions and therfor indeed when they be presented to you they com not as offerings of worth but of duty though I should my self take most pleasur in duty that is serviceable Altho Sr I had not a motiv of obligation the great temperance and moderation I have observed in you such as I have seldom seen in young Gentlmen of your age your retired disposition self sufficiency to live contentedly in your own breast whilst others wth much expens of time seck themselvs abroad would hav invited me to the boldnes of this addres for books love to be presented to the hands of such as will peruse them Wch way soever your inclination bends in matter of Religion either my Knights discours will answer to it or at least the reasonings of his three opponents against him either his valour in the defence of his Religion or his fall from it Three things I have mainly aimed at in these conferences that they should be useful familiar and new Usefull and beneficiall both by the choise of a grave and weighty subject such as is Religion and vertue also by a rational vindication defence therof Familiar and easy both by an ordinary form of words natural and proper to the language wherin they be written and by the easy flowing strain wthout any logical collection of syllogism or citation of authours autority of Latin sentences Unusuall and new both by handling such things as have not yet at least for aught I know been treated of by abstaining both from all common places heads of controversys well have been already over and over and more than enough discust and also from the ordinary way of handling them if they do chance as in the fift Dialog they do to light in my way For we find that a crambical repetition of the same things brings a nauscousnes upon men how important soever the things in themselvs may be peopl also are now run into new ways of errour and ther for new ways must be thought on to reduce them This purpos of mine I am sure is good but God knows how far I have hit it Wher any man that is my friend perceivs me to fail let him not spend time in vain to chide and censur me but help me for his helping hand I do humbly crave of him if he be an enemy let him use his discretion If I find these three Dialogues pleas I shal be encouraged to bring up the arrear The book is perfect already of it self yea each particular Dialogue is a book wthout dependance of another but the Papist yeelds not till the last where he submits either to the understanding of his two opponents or to the will of his Lady either to the great beauty of theyr reason or to the reason of her great beauty The parson is absent in the last Dialog but the Vicares fights it out to the last and leavs not the field till she see the Knight prostrated at the Ladys feet whose constant champion she was So that the papists overthrow must indeed be attributed to the Vicaresses valour who therfor fell becaus she disputed according to that kind of demonstration Artistotle makes mention of Sol lucet quia Socrates ambulas Noble Sr continue still to love him whose gratest pleasur is to serv you J. B. V. F. C. THE FIRST DIALOG LADY I have Sr Harry according to my promis brought here a worthy Divine to inlighten you in the way of truth to the end that the lettance of popery removd we may at length com to that period you have so earnestly and so long desired For I am resolvd before the conclusion of any such match either wth your self or any other so to provide aforehand that I may meet wth nothing afterwards to disturb my union repos and peace with him I wed my self VICARES So indeed it is written In the beginning God made heaven and earth And then afterwards he gav himself rest Gen. 1. LADY Your birth and breeding Sr is noble your person pleases me well and your natur is very agreable I lov your deportment your spirit is very pregnant and its endowments numerous your conditions all good your fortun is plausibl and kinred renownd your knowledge and activity equally high and comendable your conversation towards all men sober prudent and sincerly just Onely one things spoils all your other good qualitys you are a Papist VICARE It spoils all indeed according as t is written One knot of dead flies spoils a whol box of ointment Eccl. 10. LADY To deal sincerly with you I lov not popery this you must renounce or me If som few conferences with this worthy orthodox may avail to that purpos your conversion once effected I am yours KNIGT Madam I shall be willing to learn very glad you may be sure to gain two paradises at once MINISTER Well Sr I will show you in scriptur that ther is not in the whol word of God any such thing as Masses Popes Breviaries Missals Monks Cardinals Nuns Beads Liturgy Shrines Altars Vows Indulgences Lents Purgatory Dirges Priests Free-will Rosarys Merit Jesuits and the rest of popish medly VICARES Well don sweet-heart lay his load upon him that he may feel it and couch under it for so it is written Issachar is a strong ass couching down between two burdens Gen. 49. You use to say that Issachar it Greek for a papist and the two burdens a pair of panniers fild with popish trumpery LADY Fair and softly good D that we may not irritat but heal Proceed we step by step that my good Knight may chearfully accompany us in our conference beginning first with generalitys Sr. Harry you must not be obstinat in old errours but be willing upon good sufficient motivs to leav any whatsoever opinion be it never so antient T is antiquity keeps you hood winkt VICARES Old things ar past away behold all things ar becom new saith the Scripture 2 Cor. 4. MINISTER The multiform grace and industry of severall reformers raised by the Lord have brought things to light wch wer hidden in former ages And you may see daily new discoverys made both by particular persons and parlaments Luthers lamp that was first held up in the midst of darknes reveald very much of truth afortime unknown but after him severall other torches lighted at his opend yet more in severall Christian Countries I need not travell far to show you this Our English writers from Harry the eight unto this present day will make it sufficiently manifest unto you if you could peruse them how that still the succeeding Doctours added ever new degrees of light to the discoverys of forgoing divines Parlaments in the sam manner did not all at once remov superstition out of the land but perfected the work of reformation by degrees wch is indeed a progres most conformable both to to natur and art Room was not built in a day nor will it in
either keep me still from you or split me wth you LA. Wt shall we do wth you Sr Harry sith you decline scripture wch as it is the purest so t is the easiest way for your conversion VIC Shall I tell you he wil even go out of his way as Balam and his ass did I le show you the story as t is written in 22 chapter of numbers t is a very pretty one Ther you wil see how the ass confuted his rider and said unto him Am not I thine ass so prettily Read here from the 22 vers to the 36. If you go not in the right way Sr Harry as we would have you be sure you shall be checkt by a very ass When any such thing happens you may take it for a certaine sign that you ar out of your way KN. Scriptur is a good instrument to drawn men from paganisme to Christianity but no fit means to divert us from Catholik Religion to heresy That heavenly seed wch makes sons of God can never make children of perdition except it self be mischievously corrupted And therfore I decline it not at all but admit allow and embrace it as containeing that irrefragable doctrine wch eminent persons in the church of God penned wch industrious and religious persons in the same Catholik church coppied transcribed wth their owne hands above a thousand years together before printing was invented to keep that sacred letter alive and lastly wch by the Catholik body of the said Church hath beene authenticated and canonised and therfore it must needs be pure and holy being madâ— conserud and ratified by holy Church But its facility and easinesse that I do not so easily conceive or agree unto especially if you separate it from the Church whose book it is The mind and meaning of any writing no man can understand so well as the Authour no man can interpret aright contrary to the Authour no man where it is obscure and uncouth may peremptorily interpret wthout the Authour MIN. You will soon grant it to be easy if you consider that t is called a light to the understanding Wt thing is there more apparent than light And therfore t is said in the Ephesians if our Gospell be hid t is hid to them that are lost VIC Sweet heart you are mistaken that sayeing is not in the Ephesians but Corinthians 2. Ep. and the 4. c. LA. T is no matter Mr person so we find out your riddle tho it be by plowing wth your heyfer according to the saying of Samson Iud. 14. VIC I told you even now Madam that the ass will rebuk his rider when he goes astray KN. A light if it be set behind us or under a bushell or to an eye ill affected inlightens not and a prejudiced mind is a veyld understanding where light cannot enter I must say more he that goes out of the Church puts out his own eyes and he that never enterd in never had any but gropes in darknes Light is come into the world saith our Lord but men love darknes more than light Jo. 1. namely because they shut their eyes against it and no marvell that unto such the Gospell should be hid Catholikes all of them have indeed the whole Gospell by heart and comprehendit sufficiently for the life and spirit of it yet still the bark and letter of it hath obscurity enough wch is opend and manifested as far as is needfull upon occasion by the lips of priests wch preserve knowledg No man understands the mind of man but the spirit that is in man nor the meaning of scriptures can any comprehend but the spirit of that Catholik body whose the scriptures be For these be imediatly the word and doctrin of the Church and therfore called the Word of God because that Catholik body from whence it issued is animated by the spirit of Jesus Christ her naturall head who is God blessed for ever and the particular penmen therof being members of the sayd church were peculiarly illustrated by that spirit unto such an effect So then the word of God is a light and enlightens good Catholiks it enlightens not others that remain blinded in infidelity and separated from that holy mysticall body of Christ and yet t is a light still t is hid to them that are lost People that live in a family colledg or corporation by the daily sight and practis of things to be don therin do fully comprehend all that is to be said or acted there But others who be out of those societys shall never by bare reading of books written of such emploiments so long as themselves stay out attain to any satisfactory light therof but remain pusled in a wood of dark words and either mistake or not apprehend the reality and truth of things So our people wthin the Church see distinctly and clearly the truths of God in whose practis they are daily conversant so that words and writtings are not necessary unto such as be in a continuall exercise of their trade but sectaries paymins al infidels who be aliens and strangers to this Society out of the family altho they should look upon their book of statutes scripturs or laws yet will they still be pusling about words and never clearly understand the secrets of the profession One artist or tradesman knows more by heart and practise than the whole world besides that is out of that body or not conversant in the society can ever attain unto by reading A man may demonstrat by Philosophicall reason that light it self enlightens not but by reflexion no more do the word and scripturs except they reflect upon us from the bosom of the Catholik body wch actuats them in their operation If you would seriously ponder these few words you should quickly perceive unto whom the scriptures be obscure and unto whome they be easy and how they be easy to Catholiks for the practise life and meaning of them tho the letter may still keep its obscurity as children of a family may clearly understand all the whol affaires and businesses of the house tho if books should be written therof they might not so easily understand the letter of those books Yet these have great advantage in the understanding of such books abov those who are not coversant in the affairs being aliens and strangers to the family For t is easier by the knowledg perfect comprehension of things to understand words that be written of them than by reading of words to perceiv things we are altogether unexperienced in But to speak abstractively of the letter of Scriptur wthout reference unto persons as if the case were that neither you nor I ever knew any thing of the Christian religion but what we get out of the Bible or new Testament put now into our hands Could either of us or all of us together see clearly in this letter the whole state of the Catholick Church or without obscurity discern wt is to be
places are found ther is either an entire Altar stone or some remnants or signes of it This sacred Synaxy was the only thing that brought Christians together in times of hottest persecution at wch most of our Christian Martirs were taken And yet notwthstanding others could not forbear for that they could not have that comfort any other way nor yet were they able to live wthout it As appears in the Acts and processe of our ancient Martirs particularly the proconsulary Acts of S. Saturnin Wher we read that when the pagan emperours had given a comand that no Christian should dare to be present any more at their Mass wch the Christians at that time called their Dominicum the martirs replied sine Dominico esse non possumus we cannot live wthout Mass And therfore S. Saturnin being askt by Analin the proconsul whether he had been at Mass he answered Christianus sum as if he had said being as I am a Christian I cannot do otherwise t is Christianity t is my very life and being If all the Religion of those ancient Christians had been onely a little bearing or reading and their onely work to beleev in Christ they had never needed to expose their lives for that for Reformers do not think themselvs bound under sin to hear any body sith they beleev already wch is all that is necessary to salvation We cannot live wthout absolution and Mass they may live wthout a pratling preacher wch most of them do but censur and none of them be advanced by him either in their faith or good works onely their ear is somtime tickled a little wth a witty actour in the pulpet as there be indeed som of them so ingenious that t is as much pleasur to hear them speak as Ben. Iohnsons Catilin or Sejanus By all this discours I would infer that hearing or preaching the word is not the sole act of Christian Religion nor yet the main and principal act therof sith of its own natur it is but a preparativ and disposition to some further work and the disposition is ever les noble than the form it disposes unto And if it dispos unto no other thing as Reformers preaching does not then is in no Religion at all but a meer mockery This was my first thesis My other was that a man may all his life time either read or hear the word and yet at length be undon both for his sin and infidelity if in any one thing he misbeleev or fail LA. If we let you alone Sr Harry you wil not com to a period wthin your time the glas is run KN. I will dispatch in a word VIC Do so Sr Harry for it is written In a multitud of Words ther wants not sin but be that refrains his lips is wise Prov. IC KN. That any one errour in faith suffices for destruction altho a man otherwise beleev the story of Gospel is apparent in reason For all the Articles of faith being received upon one and the same motiv wch is the verity of the revealer the formal deniall of any one must needs be a vertuall deniall of all and consequently the destruction of faith wthout wch no man can be saved Wherfor S. Paul is bold to condemn Hymeneus Philetus known Christians for one onely errour Shun saith he prophane and vain bablings for they wil increas unto more ungodlines And their word wil eat as doth a canker of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus who have erred from the truth saying that the resurrection is past already overthrow the faith of some 2. Tim. 2.16 By this example we see that one errour overthrowes faith And yet t is worth noting too that the errour those two are condemned for is not any thing formally opposit to Scriptur for Christ told his disciples of a resurrection to come but did not say that in Hymeneus his time it was not past but their mistake and misdemeanour was merely against the judgment of the church whose Priests expounding Scriptur told them that the resurrection was not then past and yet they would not be quiet notwthstanding nor resign their judgment Another like president we have in his other Epistle wher he saith The younger widdows refuse for when they begin to wax wanton against Christ they will marry having damnation becaus they have cast of their first faith 1. Tim. 5.11 Tho marriage be in it self lawfull yet undertaken against the churches autority as it is it self a mortal sin so is it a casting off and a destruction of all faith And yet those widdows were beleevers and fil devotes too such as lookt to the dressing of their churches and Altars washing of their sacred vestments arâ—â— other works of charity As for mortall sin that any one will ruin the soul even of a beleever appears by the tenour of the whole new Testament especially of S. Pauls Epistles wherin he dehorts the Christians in Rome Corinth Ephesus and others from sin in generall each mortall sin in particular because the wager of sin is death neither adulterers theeues or murderers shall ever enter into the Kingdom of God of Christ Wch exhortatioÌ„ had been of no valiew and nothing to the purpose if sin had been nothing prejudiciall to one that beleeveth By this account a man may both hear read Scriptur all his life time and yet be condemnd at length both for sin and infidelity if he do not adhere closely to all truths revealed by the church and use all Sacraments and helps of salvation she propounds LA. This point requires further discussion than we have now time for And my servant hath put me in mind that dinner is brought up Wherfor break of and le ts go in MIN. Let 's in le ts in to the great work where we shall meet wth an abstract of Metaphysiks In vino veritas in pane unitas in carne bonitas Nay ther 's divinity Sacraments too Le ts in good Sr Harry on my conscience I have such a gaping appetite I could swallow a camell KN. Me thinks Dr we ar at a good feast already according to those sacred words My meat is to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work Ioh. 4. MIN. After two or three cups of wine Sr Harry I le repeat over all this discours of yours and refute it to the full Foecundi calices It was the first best miracle Christ ever did to turn water into wine I would he had turnd a little more of it VIC O Husband sweet wine and fair women are seldom found in the same countrey Content your self you had better have me wth a pot of your ale than a french face wth a whole Butt of claret Go to now MIN. That 's right too But did you never hear wt the Scotch-man said to King James when he askt him wch Byshoprick he would have Bath or Wells Marry beath beath quoth the Scotch-man The King for the conceit