commaundement “ Pag. 72. It is no part of my mynd to iustify them ♣ Pag. 84. Our doctrine appointeth Gods worship by Mens precepts after a sort ‡ Pag. 92. Our Hierarchy was never but nought * Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason following I never intended much lesse professed to iustify our whole Ministery estate and maner of worship †His Replies to the 7. 8 Reasons We depart from and deny the faith in our Ministery c. but not totally simply fundamentally ‡ His 2. Reply to the 9. Reason I list not to medle with them I have no leasure c. Now then Mr Iacob say I not well that your Churches in this estate are spirituall Babylon And have I not made a fit comparison between it and the Caldean Babylon of old between the doctrines of truth in the one and the holy vessels in the other If the comparison be good strive no more against it but yeeld to the truth as you haue begun If it be evill convince it by Scripture whence I borrowed it as the testimonyes I alledged declare Vntill you do this which will not be in hast know that the Scriptures here cited are fitly applyed to the purpose in hand If you see it not feare least you be miserably and desperatly blynded And take heed you do not still runne on wilfully to destruction Remember what is written in Esa 6.9.10 Mat. 13.14.15 Ioh. 12 37-43 Act. 28.25.26.27 Towching the place of Ezech. 43.8 I have aunswered in the handling of the first Reason Pag. 80. For Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley c. I have also answered Pag. 40. 41. You that do so often tell vs of them if you had but so much as how of any Scripture for your estate is it like you would be silent therein Nay sure you would not spare much more to tell vs of that agayne and agayne And so let the Reader mynd it Chap. 12. The Sixt Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THe Samaritans those counterfeit children of Abraham Isaak and Iacob did publiquely professe that most excellent doctrine of the Messias to come the truth of which doctrine how powerfull it was to salvation the Scriptures testify Yet doeth our Saviour Christ repute them false worshippers of God because their worship was a mixt one framed after the inuentions of men and traditions of their Forefathers Therefore saith Christ vnto them Ye worship that which ye know not we worship that which we knowe for salvation is of the Iewes By which appeareth 1. That although the Samaritans professed this saving truth yet being false worshippers of God they could not truly challendge vnto themselves in such estate the benefite thereof 2. That the Iewes and they which held their faith being then the true Church and people of God to whom his Oracles were committed and to whom his Couenantes and service did appertayne Christ therefore accounted the Iewes and not the Samaritans to be the true worshippers of God and heires of salvation Iohn 4.22 compared with ver 20.25.29 and with 2 King 17.24 c. In like maner the people of these Ecclesiasticall assemblies staÌ„ding subiect to a counterfeit Ministery and worship being also commingled togeather of all sortes of people Though they professe some truthes which otherwise are available to salvation yet can not in such estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither can so standing challendge vnto themselves the benefit of those true doctrines which they professe because God hath not made his promise vnto any false Church or worshippers of him neither committed vnto any such but onely to his true Church and worshippers his service and holy things of his word prayer Sacraments Censures c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis your Sixt Reason is The Samaritans beleeving that Messias should come Iohn 4.25 were as neere salvation as we of England are But they were false worshippers for all that Ergo so are we for all our holy doctrines beleeved according to that Book of Articles I deny the proposition The Samaritans might know by hearsay and beleeve the Messias should come and Balaam did know it Nomb. 24.17 and the Divels doe now knovv and beleeve Iam. 2.17 Yet none of these beleeved in him It follovveth not therefore that they vvere as nigh salvation as vve of England In a vvord there is a Reason manifest These Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols vvith the God of Israel 2 Kiâ—g 17. Which vvholy destroyed the truth in them though they did reteyne some memoriall amongst them of Messias to come Pag. 62 Wherefore here take the Second Ansvver to the First Reason before But I vvill help you vvith an Obiection surely one fitter then all these The Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethell served not Pagan Idols Obiection but the true God after their ovvn deuises vvhich yet resembled the ordinances of Ierusalem 2 King 12.32 Amos. 4.4 Hovvbeit they were false worshippers onely for their false Ministery and outward false worship for all that they beleeued in the God of Ierusalem otherwise rightly Ergo so are wee of England only fot our false Ministerie and outvvard vvorship To this vvee aunsvvere also vvhat additions of deuices Ansvver and hovv grosse Idolatrie they held it appeareth not But surely it seemeth farre grosser and filthier then the vvorst is vvith vs But yet this appeareth cleerly that the conscience of euery of them euen of the simpliest must needes be conuicted that Ierusalem vvas the only place and ‡ My meaning vvas the Levites vvere not of Aarons line but the Prists onely Aarons line the only Priests Leuits Therfore they could not be indeed true vvorshippers nor vvithin the couenant nor neere to saluation vvhen they all openly rebelled and forsooke them desperatly vvhom the Lord had so expresly chosen Novv our assemblies throughout EnglaÌ„d haue not their consciences so conuicted in the Hyerarchie and Ceremonies Ergo vvee may be in the couenant vvhich they vvere not for all our corruptions Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis Reason as the rest you neyther propound as we did nor make aunswer directly and soundly to any part thereof Now that the nakednes of your answer and light of the truth may better appeare we will propound the Reason more plainlie in a Syllogisme thus The people and assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as to them in that estate the Covenantes holy things and service of God do not appertayne they can not in such constitution by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and asseÌ„blies of England as vnto them in that estate the Covenauntes holy things and service of God do not apperteyne Therefore the people and Assemblies of England can not in that coÌ„stitution by the word of
also the obstinate vvere most fearfully smitten vvith Gods miraculous hand from heauen So that for any to offend in these poinctes as Ieroboam did it could not possible bee but in presumptuous rebellion vvith a high hand against God and vvith a conuicted seared conscience Which I say cannot vvith any shevv of sence be said of many Thousand Christians in this case touching the Praelacie c. Further you vrge these Reasons That this cause hath bene made manifest to the consciences of men pag. 108. yea to the Parliament of late times You say vvell to the consciences of men but not to the consciences of all men or the most men throughout the land Yea or the most of them that knovv and feare God according to the religion novv mainteyned This is the very question If you meane so that all mens coÌ„sciences are coÌ„uicted in this matter all men surely vvill either pitty your simplicitie or laugh at your folly I pray you Maister Iohnson consider your selfe you vvere a true Christian longe before you fell into this separation Yea moreouer you vvere learned yea you knevv and acknovvledged these very corruptions a great while and yet condemned vs not Nay you condemned the separation earnestly I pray you is it not possible that numbers who see not so farre as you did then should still coÌ„demne your separation yet be true ChristiaÌ„s as you acknowledg that your self then vvas meipso teste That which you adde * pag. ibid. of persecuting vnto bandes exile and death to proue our vtter abolishing from Christ generally It is a toy First if you were meerely innocent yet this could not make vs worse then the Iewes in Chrstes time who for all that they persecuted yet were they not wholly falne from God Secondly you suffer indeed more then you need H. â—a if that you would but acknowledge the grace of God with vs so farre as it is It is therefore not Christes Crosse in that regard but your owne that you beare Finally let it bee noted if †M. Iohnson his contrariety proved bâ—tvvene his 2. Reason his 6. reason Fr. Io. Not proved but pretended See my Answer here following here in this your 6. Reason you bee not directly contraty to your self as I hue obserued in your 2. Reason Pag. 85. For you say here Pag. 104. That not the Samaritans but the Iewes were then by Christ counted the true worshippers of God heires of saluation Ioh. 4.22 But in your Second Reason Pag. 82. you say They that teach for doctrine mens precepts as ‡ Mat. 15.9 there Christ saith the Iewes then did those in particuler are no true Christians nor their assemblies true Churches Therfore you inferre or else you pretend it that those particuler Ievves were not then true vvorshippers nor their Assembles true Churches vvhich is a flat contradiction Or else what is But if you meane not this of the Ievves then you abuse the scripture and vs turning it cleane from them vvhom in your Reason you speake of and vvhom Christ therein expresly meaneth Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to M. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason MAny such things Mr Iacob I have often heard Yet God forbid that I should justify you or your estate He that justifyeth the vvicked and he that coÌ„demneth the just even they both are abomination to the Lord. Therefore dare I not eyther justify your Churches wicked estate and persecution Prov. 17.15 or condemne the righteous servants of God which witnes the truth against you But you Mr Iacob have done both in this Reply of yours the abomination whereof will further appeare in the discussing of the particulers hereafter Words in deed you have ynough as thinking belike that at least you have some show on your side but they are all to no purpose save against your selves I will now examine them from point to point First for the Reason it self the Proposition of the first Syllogisme being so cleare as you can with no colour deny it you come therefore to the latter Where you pretend first to set it downe and then to aunswer it Yet in deed you do neither Thus first you set it downe They that vvorship God after a false manner are no true Christians But put on your spectacles or if you please your eye of glasse and trye agayne if you can read any better He that hath but the halfe eye you speake of sometymes may see I propounded it thus Pag. 106. The people and Assemblies whose ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the couenants holy things and seruice of God do not appertaine This you see is the latter Proposition Why then did you not thus propound it Why do you still transforme my words and Arguments into others of your owne Is it because you can find no aunswer to them as I have propounded them Or because men should see in deed that to be in your self which you do vainly obiect vnto me viz That you do sophisticate and can do nothing els in argumentation Towching your answer to the Proposition If you had kept my words what needed I pray you this vaine distinction of yours Speciallie where there is no ambiguitie at all Was there ever any professing to worship the true God in Christ that did worship him after a false maner totally that is in all the particulars of their worship Look to the Ethiopian Churches to the Papists to anie other false worshippers of God professing Christ and see if their case be such Do they not hold and preach much truth Do they not baytize in the name of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost c. If you say where the constitution of a Church establisheth a false worship of God never prescribed by himself there though they seem to have some good things yet by reasoÌ„ of such constitution and practise their whole worship is false before God totally then say I also your case is such and therefore so of vs to be esteemed Thus if there be any thing in your pretended distinction it is against your self But you have another clause in it of worshipping God after a false maner fundamentally This you say you do not in the Hierarchy and externall ceremonies and therefore you auouch confidently that such may be true Christians and that the contrarie hereof is no lesse then blasphemy c. 1. First Mr Iacob this is but your bare affirmation without any warraÌ„t produced from the Scripture 2. Secondly you say such may be true Christians whereas for the point in hand you should have said all such as towching the Church-constitution wherein they stand are true Christians If you thus affirme prove it by the word of God If you cannot it will appeare to be blasphemy rather in your self so to affirme then in others
cause also it may be you were the more willing to passe by them being in deed afrayd and vnable to deale with them But to let this passe let others now iudge by that which hath ben said on whom the sclaunder lyeth And note you by the way that it is the common woont of sclaunderers to impute that to others vnder some pretence or other which in very deed they do themselves yea and that often with an impudent forehead Of vour vaine distinction of fundamentall errors and of the necessitie which lyeth vpon you to answer the particulars which I obiected about the Papists and your selves I have spoken ‡ here before If it stop not your mouth as I suppose it will yet let it teach you at least to take heed pag. 144. c. that your next Replie be lesse vaine and more pertinent then these former have ben In the last place when all other shifts fayle you would hale in againe to help at a dead lift those good but dead men Mr Cranmer Ridley c. whom you do neuer linne calling vpon as if you would give them no rest till you had brought them vp even from the dead to beare witnesse on your side But I have shewed before so great differēce between your case and theirs as they can not help you at all And now I tell you further as Christ hath said of old Luk. 16.31 If you heare not Moses and the Prophets neyther would you be perswaded though one rose frō the dead againe All these things considered I hope in your next you will either by the word of God iustify that you depart not from the faith in your leitourgy Hierarchy confusion of people forbidding of Meats and Mariage persecuon of the truth c. or els yeeld that in such estate you do in deed depart frō the faith and therefore cannot therein by the word of God be estemed true Christians Chap 14. The Eight Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumptiō afoersaid Fr. Iohnson IF the Apostle account them denyers of the faith and worse then Infidels and consequently no true Christians who though they doe hold other truthes of the Gospell yet provide not for their household Then how are such to be accounted who though they professe some truthes of the Gospell yet are not true worshippers of God but execute or submit vnto a false Ministery vvorship governement ecclesiasticall Which to be th' estate of the Ministery and people of the Church of England appeareth as aforesaid in their Canōs Articles Book of Cōmon prayer c. But the first is true 1 Tim. 5.8 Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 8. Reason THis your Eight Reason is thus much viz. Like as it is for a professor not to provide for his houshold so is it to hold the Hierarchy c. But that is to deny the faith and to be worse then an infidell Ergo so are we in England Those very answers to the last Reason do fully and flattly satisfy this also Eyther against the Assumption namely that it is not meant simply of denying the faith nor ‡ I meane Fūdamentally as in the last Reas before I have shewed wholy but in this poinct onely Or els the Proposition as being meant of such as neglect their families against the light of their consciences and the manifest instinct of nature Er. Iohnson his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 8. Reason FOr aunswer of this Reason you refer vs both for Proposition and Assumption to your answer to the last Reason But there I have proved those your aunswers to be vntrue Therefore yet we have no aunswer either to that Reason or this As for your new meaning now and not before noted here in the margent although it help you no more then the other yet tell me in your next where you learned thus to confound things that differ so much one from another For now your Reply to both these Reasons is such as if wholy and fundamentally were all one Or els what have you said But this Mr Iacob is to confound not to distinguish as you pretended before Pag. 135. 142. Men may erre fundamentally in some points of the faith who yet erre not wholy in all Pag. 92. 136. 142. The Papists at this day you confesse †your self do erre fundamentally in some things as in Iustification by works the Popes supremacy the Masse c. Will you therefore say they erre wholy in all Do they not howsoever they erre otherwise yet notwithstanding hold also these and manie other truths viz That there is but one God and three persons in the Godhead That he made heaven and earth and all other things and that of nothing That the Sonne not the Father or holy Ghost took flesh of the Virgin Mary That the bodyes of the dead shall rise againe at the last day c. Likewise for the Corinthians and Galathians of old Pag. 28. 92 of whom also you cōfesse that they erred fundamentally in some points as about the Resurrection Circumcision c Shall we therefore think that they held not anie one point of truth but erred wholy in all The Scripture it self doth witnes the contrary as may be seen throughout the Epistles sent to those Churches How sencelesse then and confused is this your new coyned meaning Towching which I thought to adde thus much here besides that which I spake concerning it in the last Reason before Let the Reader moreover observe that both there and here and in your Reply to the Reason following the power of the truth so prevaileth against you as you cannot but graunt you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery worship and governement ecclesiasticall As appeareth in your Canons book of Common prayer Articles Iniunctiōs persecution c. All which beeing mentioned as proofes thereof in these severall reasons when now they should be defended if you would maintaine your standing behold you are as mute as a fish therein And not that onely but in your Reply to the next Reason following Pag. 156. you graunt that in these things we may and ought to separate from you Which is directlie to yeeld vs the cause Thus soundlie you answer vs and dispute for your selves H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 8. Reason TO this your Eight Reason and defence thereof I aunswer as before if you take the Apostle to meane such neglecters of their houshold as deny the faith not Fundamentally nor against the instinct of nature but only against conuenient Christian providence and no othervvise then I deny your Assumption If the Apostle meane of such as neglect their families against the light of conscience and natures instinct then I deny the Proposition This I say because the Apostle may very well meane both these but in diverse measure and proportion of sinne but then this concerneth not vs Even so as I have said to your former Reason Note also if this were
the offences faults and defaults committed in their Parishes against the foresayd Articles c. 91. Finally the imprisoning banishing and killing of such as renounce or witnes against these abominations aforesayd and the rest yet retayned among them Thus being constreyned we haue reckoned vp divers Antichristian enormityes still remayning in your Church Now let the Reader iudge of your aunswer how fond it is and of your estate whether it be not more like the blacke Raven with a white bill then the white Swan vvith a black and liker †Rev. 9.7 13. â—â— a beast with a mans face then a man with a woodden legge By this also appeareth that the speach is not vnproper as you except but pertinent and proper fitly declaring your estate when I said you ioyne Christ and Antichrist together And therefore your aunswer here is frivolous and of no weight Next you come to the proof of the Proposition which was confirmed by these scriptures 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 with Ezek. 43.8 2 King 17.33.34.40.41 The Proposition which I proued by these Scriptures was this That vvhich ioyneth Christ and Antichrist together can not make a true Christian Nowe let all men iudge Whether these Scriptures doe not so evidentlie proue this Proposition as none can denie it but such as are wilfully blinded and striue against the light of theyr owne consciences But what say you to them Forsooth that they are wholy mismatched And why so Because the ioyning there forbidden is vnto such Idolatrie as can nor stand by any meanes with Christian faith and breaketh most directlie the First coÌ„mandement whereas your transgression is but against the Second and may stand with true faith as was in Cranmer c. First this answer of yours concerneth the AssumptioÌ„ whereas those scriptures were the proof of the Proposition But to let this passe let vs consider the answer it self These Scriptures say you forbid ioyning to such Idolatrie as cannot stand with Christian faith and breaketh most directlie the First commaundement 1. If this were so what then Doe they not therfore forbid ioyning to Antichristian idolatrie and that false worship which breaketh the second commandement 2. Secondly you cannot deny but as we iudge of your way and estate so it is a transgression against the Second commaundement Now Samuell saith â— Sam. 15.23 Rebellion is as the sinne of vvitchcraft and transgression is vvickednes Idolatry See then what aduantage you get by your owne answer 3. Thirdly as the Pagans Idolatrie breaking the First commaundement cannot stand with true christian faith so neither can the idolatrie and false worship of Antichrist breaking the Second To that of Maister Cranmer c. is alreadie answered Wherevnto also may be added that your case now is nothing so as theirs was then both for that they suffered to death for the trueth they sawe and because the things now controverted were not then so called in question and convinced by the scriptures as now they haue ben neither were then by them so resisted and persecuted as they are by you now adayes even to hands bannishment and death it self Otherwise we might iustifie the callings and estate of the Monks Fryars and of the most Popish Priests and Prelates and the having of communion with them in that estate because diuers such haue ben Martyrs and layd downe their lives for the trueth they faw who yet neuer doubted of the lawfulnes of their callings and estate in this behalf 4 Fourthly as there is a double Idolatrie and false worship the one against the First commandement when any haue others besides the true God for their God the other against the Second commuandment when any having the true God for their God yet worship him not as he hath commaunded but after the inventions and prescriptions of men So the scriptures alleadged and the whole course of the word of God condemyne ioyning and having fellowship with either of these aswell this which is against the Second commaundement as that which is against the First See the Reasons alleadged by the Apostle 2 Cor. 6. Are they not strong and weightie against ioyning togeather righteousnes vnrighieousnes light darknes Christ Beliall †2 Cor. 6.14 c. whether it be in the breach of the First or Second commaundement Sayeth not the Lord there That his Church is his Temple in which he dwelleth walketh and therefore requireth of them that they be his people that they be his sonnes and daughters that they be separated from the world that they touch no vncleane thing whether it be of Antichrist or of the Heathen or whomsoever breaking the law of God And touching the place of Ezekiel who seeth not Ezec. 43.8 that he speaketh directlie of the breach of the Second commandement for ioyning togeather in the worship of the true God their thresholdes with Gods thresholds and their postes with Gods postes that is their inventions with Gods ordinances which though it bee done to the name and for the seruice of the true God yet as the Prophet sayth It is abominations in the sight of God and they that doe so worship him put a wall between God and themselves and defile his holy Name with their abominations Loe here the vse and fruit of ioyning togeather the inventions of men chieflie of Antichrist that man of sinne with the ordinaÌ„ces of God in his worship and seruice As you and your complices Maister Iacob like this so may you hold on in pleading for it and practising of it The third place is out of 2 King 17. where it is most plaine that the scripture speaketh of the breach of the Second coÌ„maundement For there we read that the Samaritans worshipped the * 2 King 17 28.32.41 same God and after the same †vers 26.27 29.33.34.40 maner that the Israelites of the Ten Tribes did that were carryed from thence That is they worshipped the true God but not as hee had commaunded but by hauing Images of sundrie sortes by which they thought God was represented as †Exod. 32.4 of old they thought of the calfe that Aaron made and by other inuentions deuised by the Israelites in their defection and ioyned to Gods ordinances for the worship and seruice of him That this was the sinne of those Samaritans against the Second commandement will appear by comparing togeather with this chapter these scriptures following to which we refer the Reader Ezra 4.1.2 with Exod. 20.4.5.6 and 32.1.4.5.6 Iudg. 17.2.3.4.5.13 Ezek. 20.39 Hosea 2.16 Amos. 5.21.22.23 8.14.1 Kings 12.27 and 18.21 and 21.29 and 22.12.24 Esay 10 11. Iohn 4.19.20.25.26.29.30 By these also as by that of Ezekiel may appear how false it is that you say further They did not so much as professe the written lavv to be their rule neyther for outvvard order nor their invvard doctrines of faith If this were so howe could it bee true which Ezechiell sayeth of thou of whom he speaketh
And for the other that Christ notwithstanding said to some of the Iewes Maâ— 15.9 they vvorshipped God in vaine teaching doctrines mens precepts Mat. 15.9 How say you Mr Iacob is the Scripture therefore contrarie to it self Or were Christs speaches contrarie the one to the other Pag. 83. 2 Besides are you so dull as you can not conceive no not when it is told you that the sinnes and corruptioÌ„s of the meÌ„bers of a true Church may fitlie be alledged against whole false Churches and yet neither condemne the true constitution of that Church wherein the one stand nor justifie the false constitution of the other 3 Yea know you not that a Church in true constitution jointlie considered may be said to be true vvorshippers of God c. and yet some yea manie of that Church be said also through their owne default in other respect to vvorship God in vaine or to be tainted with Idolatry or the like And yet no contradiction be implyed in so saying Seing you cannot vnderstand it in Christs words concerning the Ievves see if you can perceive it in Pauls to the Corinthians When he speaketh to the whole Church jointlie considered he commendeth them for keping his ordinaÌ„ces and acknowledgeth they call on the Name of the Lord Iesus 1 Cor. 1.2 11.2 But when he speaketh in respect of some that sate and eat of the sacrifices in the Idol-temples he biddeth them fly from Idolatry and telleth them they cannot be partakers of the Lords table and of the table of Divels 1 Cor. 10.14.21 8.10 Yet is he not contrarie to himself for all this Mynd withall what I aunswerd before concerning this point in the Second reason Pag 90. And so againe I leave it to the Reader to judge whether the contrariety you speak of be not in deed an harmony and that therefore you abuse both the Scripture and vs. Chap. 13. The seventh Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson If the Spirit of God account them to be departers from the faith and consequentlie no true Christians who though they hold other truthes of the Gospell yet forbid to marry and commaund to absteine from meats vvhich God hath created to be received vvith thankesgiving Then such account must needs be made of the estate of the Church of England which not onelie both these things but withall forbiddeth the true Ministerie and worship of God and commaundeth a false Whose Ministers and people also do all of them partake therein For proof whereof besides their practise of these and persecution of the truth see their owne Canons Articles Statutes Iniunctions c. But the former is true 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 7. Reason â—â— 1â— THis yout seaventh Reason is They are departed from the faith that forbid to marry and commaund to abstayne from lawfull meates Also this is worse then that viz. to forbid the true Ministery and to commaunde a false which we in England doe Ergo we are departers from the faith I deny this AntecedeÌ„t that is your AssumptioÌ„ with a distinctioÌ„ The Papists †See â—hâ—â—â— Testam in Mat. 15.18 Fr. Io. See D. Fulkeâ— answer therevnto forbidding of mariage meals if they had don no worse doth not make them departers froÌ„ the saith that is not “ or not fuÌ„damentally not simply vvhich vvordâ—s I think â—itter to bee here vsed as in my next Reply is further declard totally No more could their Hyerarchie and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such The Papistes fall from Christ ‡ That is fundameÌ„tally simply see in the 2. Reply follovving wholy in other poincts namely 1. The Papall supremacy 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by workes Which blessed bee God wee are farre from Therfore the Apostle in saying They departed from the faith meaneth in * vid. in abstayning froÌ„ Mariage and meetes these poincts they erred or departed from the faith but not absolutly and wholy 2. Furthermore touching your Proposition if you vnderstand Paul of Martion the Heretike and Tatianus who did absolutly condemne Mariage and certen meats they even therein might vvholy fall froÌ„ the faith I meane somwhat like to Balaam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites “ Pag. 105.112 lately spoken of namely for having their consciences convicted and seared with a whot iron And thus are they in no comparison with vs of EnglaÌ„d nor with the Papistes neither if they had erred in nothing else Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 7. Reason HEre being not able with any colour to deny the consequent of the Proposition neither to justify your present Ministery worship Canons Articles IniunctioÌ„s c. which you must do Mr Iacob and still we call for it if you will justify your present estate yet being desperate sure for els you would never have done it you feare not to gainsay the Assumption that is the very words and testimony of the Scripture it self 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 The Apostle saith that they which forbidd Mariage and Meats are departed from the faith You say No. Now whether I pray you shall we beleev You or the Apostle But what colour have you for your deniall This forsooth That they which doe so do not depart from the faith totally and that the Apostles meaning is that in these poincts they depart from the faith but not absolutly and wholy So by your conceit none may be accounted departers from the faith that depart onelie in some poincts but they which doe it totally from all And thus may no heretikes or Antichrists that euer haue bene or shal be in the world be iudged departers froÌ„ the faith because they depart from it but in some poincts and not absolutly from all Thus have you justified at once the Arians Nestorians Sabellians Papists Familistes Anabaptistes and whom not because they depart but in some not wholy from all poincts of faith Is it not great pitie that Antichrist hath so long wanted such a stout Champion as can thus in one word justify his forbidding of meates and mariage yea and his most detestable Hierarchie and superstitions withall By your learning Mr Iacob all the Martyrs and writers heretofore which by evideÌ„ce of this Scripture convicted the Synagoges of Antichrist to have departed from the faith and therefore separated from them were vtterly deceived Yea and the Apostles themselves were wholy mistaken when they call Antichrists Church and Religion ♣ 2 Thes 2.7 a mysterie of iniquitie which ‡ 1 Tim. 4.2 speaketh lies through hypocrisy * 2 Pet. â— 1 prively bringing in daÌ„nable heresies and ‡ hauing a shew of godlines but denying the power thereof And Iohns eyes it seemeth were not matches 2 Tim. 3.4 when he saw in the whores forehead that is in Antichrists Church and Religion a name written A mystery great Babylon the mother of vvhoredomes and
a true Reason it maketh Maister Cranmer c. denyers of the faith and not true Christians also For maintenance whereof you have here not one poore vvord at all Tovvching that you say we cannot deny but graunt that we departe from and deny the faith in our Ministery I have told you hovv in my ansvver to your 7. Reason Also see my Replyes to your 2. Exception Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 8. Reason NOw that all your shifts fayle you come with Ifs and And 's If the Apostle meane this and If he meane that c. As if the Apostles * words were not playne 1 Tim. 5.8 so as the meaning may easily be discerned of anie that is not wilfullie blynd Read and mynd in all such cases and Scriptures that which is written Prov. 8.9 with Act. 28.26.27 But you say the Apostle may very well meane both such as neglect their houshold against convenient Christian providence and such as do it against the light of conscience and natures instinct If the first then you deny the Assumption that is the Apostles owne saying And thus againe you give the holy Ghost the lye If the latter then you deny the Proposition And then you must prove that thus they do it For who knoweth not that such will not for this case any more then you for yours confesse that they do it against light of conscience c. Nay will they not say as stiflie as you that this concerneth not them And moreover is not that also which is light in one mans conscience often darke in another mans by one meanes or other See it in an example One of your professors in London runneth to all your Sermons and Lectures from place to place throughout the City every day and every houre By this meanes he neglecteth his familie You tell him he doth it against light of conscience and natures instinct He denyes it and saith he doth it not so but as being perswaded in his conscience that he must first seek the kingdome of God and that then all outward things shal be cast to him and his Herevpon in a blynd zeale he doth as aforesaid Now tell me Is not this man notwithstanding within compasse of the Apostles rule here spoken of Yet will he stand against it for his case as stiffe as you for yours yea and alledge for himself more colour and show of Reason then you do or can for your Hierarchy c. So then both the Proposition and Assumption stand firme against you and therefore also the whole Reason Now here againe being loth belike to give them any rest you call for Mr Cranmer c. As if they were your Pages to wayte at your heeles on every call and to serve your turne at every need whether they will or not Never were poore men in all the world I think made such a stale But they serve you accordingly They let you commaund and go without For every where you commaund their names and yet alway go without their fellowship As I have shewed before in particular Pag. 40. 41. Towching your graunt let the Reader note here againe that you yeeld you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery c. You say you have before told vs how But what you have said before is there aunswered and taken away And besides for vs it is sufficient that it is done Look you vnto it how you do it It may be some of you do it of ignorance some of knowledge against the light of your owne consciēces some for feare of men some for love of the world some of contention or vaine glory some for their profit pleasure ease honour quyetnes or the like Thus I deny not but in the maner of doing there may be among you in these respects a divers measure and proportion of sinne But this concerneth not vs but your selves to look vnto and that greatlie Chap. 15. The Ninth Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THey which do otherwise teach and condiscend not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines all such by the rule of the Apostle are to be separated frō and therefore cannot in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 But such is the case of all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their ministery worship and Church constitution As appeareth both by the severall points of their false doctrine * Points of false doctrine els where noted and by the proofes “ Pag. 61. 63. 135. c. here before alledged out of their owne Canons Articles Iniunctions c. Therefore all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their Ministery worship and Church constitution are by the rule of the Apostle to be separated from neither can in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 9. Reason THis your last Reason is Separate from them that teach otherwise then the truth 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 We holding those Articles do teach diverse things in the Hierarchy c. that be otherwise then is truth Therefore we must be separated from and consequently we are no true Christians This is a fallacy also Separate from such Ergo separate wholy See my 1. and 2. Reply afore to the third Exception also the Aunswer to the two last Reasons of all the 7. and 8. We graunt therefore so farr forth as we hold otherwise then trueth so farr separate from vs but not any farther at all not wholy or absolutly And so the Apostle here meaneth Wherefore briefly Because you prove vs not wholy to deny the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Ievves Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 Therefore you ought not vvholy to separate from vs Neither to condemne vs vvholy as abolished from Christ no more then Maister Cranmer Ridley were vvith their Congregations in King Edwards tyme. And thus our Assumption in the beginning standeth firme The doctrine in the booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian. Cōclusion The contrary vvhereof is such a Paradox as hath not ben heard of till this day All reformed Churches in Europe doe and have alvvayes held othervvise Themselves †M. Barrow Mr. Penry Mr. Iohnson heretofore have acknovvledged and professed it The holy Martyrs that lived in King Edvvards dayes and dyed in Queene Maries dayes must be othervvise cut of from Christ vvho vvere true Christians by vertue of this doctrine and the practise thereof or verily not at all But now it is vvonder vvhat extreame passion hath driven them to this denyall Surely they see that it conuinceth flatly as indeed it doth their peremptory separation And therefore rather then they vvould
of themselues raylers murmurers malicious covetous presumptuous lascivious hypocriticall vnstable discontended and such like persons alledgeth the Prophecyes Scriptures examples which were before of them in Enochs tyme of the vnbeleuing Iewes the Sodomites evill Angels Cain Balaam Corah c. Iud. Epist vvith Gen. 3.1 and 4 3-16 and 19 1-25 Numb 14. and 16. and 22. chap. c. Now in these as in the rest and many other so alledged in the Scriptures may divers differences be observed Yet are they all notwithstanding fit and pertinent for that wherevnto they apply them Neyther can any be ignorant but that there will be difference eyther of time place cause sexte persons things maner or such like circumstance in any allegations and yet they be pertinent nevertheles It is not materiall then though some differences might be noted between the case of England and theyrs of whom those Scriptures speak seing notwithstanding they do fitly prove that for which they are alledged Let the Reader also mynd here an old Popish shift whereby they labour to turne away the evidence of any Scripture that is vrged against theyr corruptions viz by noting some difference between theyr case and such as the Scriptures alledged speak of This you may see every where in theyr Rhemish notes on the New Testament and in all the rest of theyr books and defence of theyr Church and religion But now further to make the abuse of his lips yet the more manifest marke that the very Scriptures here mentioned by himself speak not onely of the vvhole body and povver of Heathen and Antichristian religion as he pretendeth but of every particular ordinance and vncleane thing belonging therevnto For thus they speak expressely Tovvch no vncleane thing Keep all myne ordinances and all my iudgements Be ye cleane Partake not in her sinnes c. By all which is most plainely forbidden all maner of partaking not of the whole onely but of every parcell of Antichrists or any other false worship whatsoever As to the second difference which he noteth here of theyr vvilfulnes rebellion obstinacy partaking vvith the lavvfull and good things vsed among them c. it is handled and answered in the Treatise following Pag. 42. 43. 88. 108. 130. 132 161. 170. 171. 175. 180. The particulars which he citeth out of the Evangelists towching the Iewes are the speaches and testimony of reproof given vnto them by Christ whē now he threatned to take away from them his kingdome because of those sinnes and other the like among them Mat. 21.43 This man himself knoweth we never doubted but true Churches might fall into errour and the members thereof walk corruptly in which respect they are subiect to be reproved And yet notwithstanding the Church constitution and functions be lawfull and ioyned withall vntill they refuse the voyce of Christ and will not be reclaymed Rev. 2. and 3. Math. 21. and. 23. Act. 2. and 13. and 17. and. 28. chap. Wherevnto when once they come then are all taught to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation Act. 2.40 and 13.46.47 19.9 Esa 8 12.-16 Now if we may separate from such as have ben true Churches when they so fall into sinne and persist as is aforesayd notwithstanding that otherwise they professe many Doctrines of truth how much more may and ought we to separate from all false Churches which stād in the apostasy of Antichrist that Man of sinne howsoever they professe some truth withall 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4 Ezech. 16.44 But of the difference both of the estate and dealing with true Churches and false compared together as also of the weaknes and falsehood of this māner of reasoning which here he vseth I have other where spokē sufficiently both in this Treatise following to which he referreth vs Pag. 92. 161. 195. and in another already published viz. A Treatise of the Ministery of England Pag. 45. 61 62. Note withall that none of the Evangelists neyther any other Scriptures do shew that Christ or the Prophets did at any tyme communicate with the Iewes in any evill but alway reproved them Whereas it is not possible that any should communicate with the Church of England though it be in theyr best things even of the Ministery of the Word Sacraments Prayer etc. but they must needs partake in evill As namely with the Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion and other sinnes of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Let him shew the contrary in any one thing among them iff he can And of this also see more hereafter Pag. 170. 171. 180. Finally let him tell vs if he have said any thing here which they in K. Henry the eight his dayes might not have alledged when the Popes supremacy with much of his religion besides was cast out of the Land and yet they oppugned the truth in many things and became drunken with the blood of the Martyrs notwithstanding D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 5. Obiection But vnto the examples of these Churches me thinkes I heare already that common aunsvver and last refuge of theyrs vvhich is this Those Churches say they were in a true outward constitution And therefore were the true Churches of Christ notwithstanding those grosse errors which they held in other poincts of doctrine and practise But contrariwise say they the Churches of England have a false outward constitution and therefore they are no true Churches of Christ notwithstanding theyr truthes of doctrine c. Ansvver So the outvvard constitution is the maine poinct on vvhich they vvholy depend and for vvhich they vvholy condempne the Churches of England from being true Christians in state of salvation VVhich I doubt not plainly to take avvay 1 And first concerning the constitution of the Ievvish Churches If vve should examine the same vve should finde that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Tvvo high Priests having by simonie crept in at once vvhich vvas vnlavvfull and contrarie to Gods ordinance notvvithstanding their gloses in their other ‡ ‡ 9. Reasons vvritinges to allovv them to be lavvfull by * * 2 Chrō 24 2.3 Zadok and Abimelech and by ††2 King 24.18 Seruiah the chief Prieste Zephaniah the Second vvhich make against themselues For there vvas never but one high Priest as they confesse * * Ansvver to Mr Hild. Pag. 50. Ergo not tvvo as here vvere the rest vvere indeed inferior to him And yet amongst those there vvas a chiefly also vvho vvere called sometimes Second Priests or Priests of the Second order 2. King 23.4 and sometimes chief Priests Math. 27.1 These Scriptures being compared vvith those in the margin by them cited doe make it more plaine Novv if the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through couetousnes as the Histories make mention It is not likely that the inferior offices did remaine sound but vvere asmuch or more altered The Priests generally being such couetous
false Church And contrarily Thirdly I aske Is not the Hierarchy and Church constitution of Antichrist the most detestable anarchy of Sathan that ever was And doth not Sathan far more commonly and readily part with his false doctrine then with it when he must needs part with the one 2 Thes 2.9 and yet can retayne the other He is subtill and of long experience he can mynd and knoweth full well that so long as he holdeth his owne constitution of a Church he can quickly vppon any opportunity bring in his doctrine agayne even with a trice For why He hath both the people ready for the receyving of it being yet still in the confusion and bondage of Antichrist and his owne Ministery also to be imployed in the publishing and serving thereof theyr Offices Callings Ministrations Maintenance being all ready at hand and fit for the purpose Whereas on the contrary when the false constitution is abolished then false doctrine wanteth both hee woonted place of receipt and her nimble wings by which she should spread and fly abroad And here I could alledge for proof hereof the prefer Ministery and estate of the Church of England which being of Antichrist Sathans graundchild and he now having spyed his tyme and found some opportunity beginneth apace by this meanes to bring in agayne such doctrines of his as had for a tyme ben suppressed As namely Free-vvill Auricular Confession Christs soule to descend into Hell The Church of Rome to be a true Church c. Witnesse the Books and publik Sermons of Bilson Bancroft Hooker Androes Harsenet Barret and other the Priests and Prelates of that Church the Marchants of these and the like wares off the Beast in Court City Countrey Vniversity and where not The same thing you may mynd also thus So long as the house standeth still and is furnished with servants and Ministers it is ready for the implements and furniture though removed for a tyme to be brought in agayne and soone to be set vp in theyr woonted place And if you would see an example of these things yet in memory look but at the Churches estate in K. Edwards and Q. Maryes dayes compared together The popish constitution of the Church being not abolished in King Edwards tyme how soone was the Popes doctrine yea and his supremacy in Queen Maryes dayes spread and acknowledged throughout the Land Yet the same doctrines of truth were in K. Edwards tyme published and receyved which now are in England And very like also that it was then with more zeale and love of the truth thē now it is specially considering the generall coldnes of men and the cruell persecution of the truth to which this age synce is come Mynd further that the Offices houses and maintenance of the Fryers and Nunnes being before in the time of K. Henry the eight quite taken away they were not able in all Q. Maryes raigns to reare them vp agayne No albeit they iudged them lawfull and necessary aswell as the other poynts of Popery and did also very earnestly desier and labour to have them reestablished So great a matter it is to have a thing abolished in the whole constitution thereof Even as when an house is rased and pulled downe to the very foundation And here vpon this occasion let me also aske Whether if the Callings and Livings of the Prelates and Priests together with the Idoll Temples and confusion of all maner people in the body of the Church now had in England were so dealt with as the Abbats Monks Abbeyes and Nunryes then were there would not fewer Iesuites and Seminaryes come into the Land Popery lesse increase treason against her Maiesty be lesse attempted and finally all the meanes and hope for the full replanting of Antithrists religion agayne in that Church be vtterly removed and taken away Let this Scribe then go and perswade such as himself that the outward constitution of the Church is but as the tithing of Mynt Annise and Commin c. Whosoever have theyr 〈◊〉 exercised to discerne good and evill will playnely see that notwithstanding any thing he pretendeth yet it is and ought to be accounted among the waighty matters of the Law of God Yea that it is of far other importance and consequence then most men think or will yet be perswaded albeit even experience the Mistresse of fooles might in all this tyme and tryall have taught them sufficient if ynough were ynough for men In cases of Religion Now for his Reason here any may see by that which hath ben sayd that it is very frivolous and of no waight at all The Proposition or first part hath nothing for the ground of it but that which is in question and neyther is alway true nor can be yeelded vnto for very great and waighty causes here before declared Vnto which adde these also 1. That many errors in doctrine are and may be far lesse then the errors of the outward constitution when they are truly compared together 2. That the true outward constitution of the Church alway implyeth both a separation of the people from the World and the joyning of them together in the fellowship of the Gospell and both these to be voluntary Which particulars being considered with the former will teach him not barely to set downe but duly to prove the Proposition in his next Reply The Assumption or second part of the Reason is in some fence true in some sence false and in both against himself and their Churches estate When Churches are set in the constitution and way of Christ if afterward they fall into some errour of doctrine they are notwithstāding for the former to be reputed true Churches vntill being admonished they refuse to heare the voyce of Christ and to yeeld to the truth Thus the Assumption is true and of vs confessed by the example of the Churches of the Iewes c. But when theyr case cometh to be such as they will rather abide in errour then obey the truth and voyce of Christ this so wilfull persisting simply overthroweth such a company from being a true Church in such estate And thus the Assumption is false and so proved to be by the example of the said Churches And both wayes it is agaynst him and theyr Church as will yet further appeare by that which is now to be spoken of his question wherein he would be resolved He asketh VVhat if a company of Arrians Anabaptists or Papists should be gathered and established in a true outvvard constitution and still retayne theyr fundamentall errors before named VVhether then their outvvard constitution should make them a true Church Yea or no. I aunswer 1. Not onely false constitution but false doctrine also retayned make a false Church If it were so then that they could have a true constitution as he supposeth yet by reason of theyr false doctrine they should be a false Church 2 I aske also of him Whether these companyes of whom he speaketh
were true Churches when they fell into those errors as were the Churches of Galatia when the errors about Circumcision and the Law crept in among them Or whether they were Hereticks Sectaryes or the like such as were Hymeneus Philetus Alexander the Apostates of Rome c. falling from the true faith and Churches of God when they came to be gathered and established as he fancyeth If they were of the former sort then they are to be estemed and admonished as true Churches till by despising the voyce of Christ the Kingdome of God be taken from among them Gal. 1.2 vvith 5.2.4 Mat. 21.33.43 1 Cor. 1.2 vvith 15.12 Rev 2. 3. chap. If of the latter then are they no true Churches at all but false and detestable Synagogues of Sathan whatsoever truth in constitution or otherwise they shall pretend Rev. 2.9 Act. 20.30 Col. 2.8.23 2 Thes 2.3.7 1 Tim. 1.19.20 6.20.21 and 2 Tim. 2.17.18 and 3.5.6.13 and. 4.14 Heb. 10.38.39 2 Pet. 2.1.2.3 In de ver 18.19 Rev. 13.11 17. 18 chap. 3. In a true constitution must alway be mynded a calling by the word of God a separation from the world a joyning together in the fellowship of the Gospell and that by a voluntary profession thereof and submission therevnto Now these things considered how is it posible that the Arrians Anabaptists or Papists retayning theyr errours should yet be gathered and established in a true outward constitution Can the light of truth have communion with the darkenes of falsehood Or can Christ in his constitution agree with Belial in the errours of Arians Anabaptists Papists c. 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 4. Finally if he will not heare our aunswer nor the Scriptures testimony let him yeâ— heare Mr Iewell a Prelate of theyr Church resolve his question in this maner * Ievvels Reply to Harding Pag 99 VVithout Christ the Church is no Church neyther hath any right or clayme vvithout his promise noâ— any promise vvithout his vvord Now this D. B. affirmeth himself that these of whom he speaketh are vvithout Christ For he sayth †Before in Sect. 3. theyr errors do of theyr ovvne nature cleane abolish from Christ Therefore by his owne assertion and Mr Iewels layd together they can be nâ—â—eue Church whatsoever faith or constitution they should pretend neyther have they anâ— right in such estate to his blessing Which yet is promised to them that are in the true waâ— and constitution of Christ Mat. 28.20 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Lev. 26.11.12 Thus then appeareth that he doth both ignorantly fever the doctrine wholy from the Churches constitution and that yet when they are considered apart as some tymes and â— some respects they may be each of them that is both the doctrine and constitution according as they are true or false avayle directly to the ouerthrowing or making of the Church to be likewise true or false so as hath ben declared before His crafty putting of faulty here for falâ— will nothing help him but bewrayeth his corrupt dealing the more Els let him shew in his next if he can whether ever there were true Church that stood in false constitution Neyther is the obiection of the Iewish constitution answered at all but remayneth of force against them still And that so much the more as the Churches of England remayne both in falâ— constitution and in false doctrine for both which they are vnder the wrath of God and all â—ound to separate from them And whosoever will not so do it remayneth a grievous sinne vpon theyr heads for which they must answer to God in that day when he will cast the Beast and false Prophet with all such as have ben seduced by them into vtter destruction to have their part in the lake which burneth with fyer and brimstone which is the second death 2 Thes â— 10.11.12 Rev. 14.9.10.11 17.1.2 19.20.21 21.8 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 7. Lastly concerning our corruptions As we cannot iustifie them to be no corruptioÌ„s but must needes acknowledge that there are many yet remaining in our land which vvere left by that man of sinne are as thornes vnto our sides vvhich vve hope God will in time abolish Iudg. 2.3 So dare vve not runne into your extremities to condempne our Churches for such corruptions but waight the appointed time of God for the redresse thereof Yet in the meane time so longe as those most excellent truthes and doctrines of salvation for which God make vs thankfull are still reteyned and held as soundly as by any Church vpon the face of the earth the other errors not simply ouerthrovving the same beeing not held of obstinacy and being also for the most part of great controversie and disputation among the learned So long I say communion in things lavvfull is to be kept with them as before is noted in the example of other Churches Othervvise it vvill come to passe by reason of the * * Mat. 25.13 10.23 dieuersitie in opinions and iudgementes vvhich by the corruption of our nature vve remaine in in this tabernacle as hath ‡ ‡ Lev. 4. Psal 19.12 bene in all ages and * * 1 Cor. 13.9 12. shal be so long as this life of imperfection indureth that no communion can euer bee had vvith any Church liuing no nor any one Christian vvith another Which to affirme vvere most absurd and vngodly These observations beeing considered I doubt not but the Lorde vvill adde a blessing to this vvorke That such as are simple hearted and have exceeded in eagernesse of zeale may see theyr extremitie in so rashly and vnadvisedly separating from and condempning the Churches of England sometymes theyr Nurses and Mothers as before is noted Whereby God may have the glory themselves the comforte euen the salvation of theyr soules through Christ D. B. The Aunswer Now at length D. B. yeeldeth the cause himself So great is the truth and so greatly it prevayleth against every oppugner thereof To omit that he confesseth they cannot justify theyr corruptions and yet they can abide in them he sayth also they must needs acknovvledge that they have many corruptions remayning vvich vvere left by that man of sinne vvhich are as thornes vnto theyr sides Blessed be God which maketh the enemyes themselues bring glory and testimony to his truth They are so convinced as he sayth plainely they must needs acknovvledge it Now therefore let him name them in his next or confesse those to be of them which I have noted hereafter Pag. 63. c. Till then I will onely inferre this herevppon that seing they are such as himself here graunteth them to be viz corruptions of the Man of sinne and thornes to theyr sides even therefore are all bound to separate from them as being condenmed by the word of God For hath not the Lord commaunded all his people wholy to leave the Man of sinne with all his corruptions not to partake in any of his
and vndersong M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. as if for our faith and worship of God we should turne from the liuing God to dead men Esa 8.20 from the law and testimony of the Lord to the opinions and aberrations of Man I might besides wish the Reader to mind the vnsauerie salt of your raising and reprochfull speaches scattered throughout your book but I omit it And now I come to the particular examination of this Replie of yours You say He that hath but half an eye may see the meaning of the vvordes of your Proposition c. Well Mr. Iacob then your self hauing two eyes might easily see I omitted the Proposition not for the darknes or doubtfulnes of the words but because it yet appeared not how your self vnderstood them whether so as you make the Proposition general admitting no exception or particular and to be restrained And why do you not yet tel vs how you take it Are you afraid to say either the one or the other either that it is general or that it is particular If you make it general admitting no limitation then is your Proposition false Page 5. as I showed in my last aunswer which you cannot gainesay If it be particular then is your Syllogisme a meer Sophisme your Argument of no moment neither in any Mood or Figure How think you Mr. Iacob Is not your reason very sound and Clerklike But you perhaps with two eyes see not so much as others may with half an eye Touching the Assumption to follow your words in order I showed that wheras in the Proposition you spake of a companie so gathered togeather you should for your purpose haue assumed that your Assemblies be companies so gathered And tel me ought you not so to haue don seeing you make but one Syllogisme If you ought is it vvrangling to shew what is wanting in your Reason If you ought not why haue you now made an addition to your Assumption which was not before Is it because I should not stumble at a straw or is it not because the Argument is vnsound without it though you note the contrarie in the margent If it be sound without this why doe you not so proue it If it be not why doe you not confesse it Nay why are you both so conceited in your self and so desirous to blind your Reader as when the fault is shewed you yet you wil not onely not accknowledg it but lay the blame vpon him that would draw you to see it This in deed is not to stumble at a straw but wilfully to fall downe when you might be holpen vp Now although you be vnworthy of any further help Yet because I I would haue you see it I wil once againe labour to make it plaine vnto you if I can beat it into your head You make but one Syllogisme and in it you conclude your publique Assemblies to be true Churches Now you know I suppose that alwaies in a good Argument whatsoeuer is in the Conclusion must needes be in one of the premisses before But in yours it is not so Your conclusion is of your publique assemblies and yet you neuer spake of them before in either of the premisses Can you by this perceive how extremely faulty and vnsound your Argument is But you think to help your self by saying you meant so much Sure you are neare driuen M. Iacob For what wrangler could not so help out any matter Yet here you stay not Euen your words you say imply as much And do they indeed Tell me then whether here you include and defend all the publique Assemblies of the Land as they now stand or but some of them whether those that haue dumbe Ministers aswell as those that haue Preachers whether those that haue non residents aswell as those that haue their Incumbents whether the Cathedral Churches aswell as the Parishes For all these are by Law Churches among you the Cathedrall the Parishionall those that haue non residents or humbe dogs with fower Sermons a yeare Pluralities c. Then tell me whether all these Assemblies of yours be companies by Lavv gathered together in that profession practise wherof you speak Besides where the words in your Proposition were of companies so gathered together c. and you in your addition to the Assumption haue in steed thereof companies gathered together in the doctrines c. why are you so vnconstant and fearefull in your words why do you not keep the same termes why made you not the addition as was showed you it ought to haue ben Did you think that then I would and might the more call vpon you for proof thereof That belike was the matter For in deed I do and must needs so much the more cal for it And how will you ever prove it that your Assemblies are companies so gathered together that is by a free voluntary profession of the truths among you * Act. 2.41 11.24 Psal 110.3 Esa 44.5 2 Cor. 6.17.18 and 9.13 Zach. 8.21 23. 1 Thes 1.6 such as is in true CHRIstians and in the manner of gathering euery true Church when as you are by Lavv compelled so to professe or rather to submit to that profession Yea and by compulsion of Lavv are gathered not only in and vnto those truths but in and to Antichristian errors which cannot stand therewithall I pray you M. Iacob iustifie by the Scriptures such profession to be that which is in true Christians and such gathering to be that which is in true Churches Next where you charge me with strange dealing for saying your vvriting declared that you so took the Proposition as vvhatsoeuer ‡ These vvords among them Mr. Iacob leaueth out among you be iointly together held ioyned vvith that vvhich othervvise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notvvithstanding you are so to be reputed as if there vvere no such additions or commixtures First speak plainely whether you doe so take your Proposition or not Whatsoeuer you aunswer it will be against your self and manifest the weaknes of your Argument as I haue declared a litle before Secondly why wrote you not all my words but left out som of them was it because you thought that would haue cleared me of strange dealing and left it vpoÌ„ your own head Thirdly where you say in all your vvriting you haue no such vvord no syllable no letter sounding to that sence Lift vp your eares Mr Iacob and tel me how these wordes of yours do sound in your hearing †M Iacobs 1. Reply to the 1. Reason follovving Christ and some outward ceremonies and orders of Antichrist are joined together among vs vvhich things yet vve think to be Christs ovvne Againe The ‡ His 1. Reply to the 4. Reason fâ—llovving outvvard manner of calling to the Ministery and some outvvard ceremonies vsed by Mahomet and the Pope doe not destroy faith true Christianity And yet more plainely when you say *
His 1. Reply to the 7. Reason folloing The Papists forbidding of mariage and meats if they had done no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such These and many mo you haue in your first Reply besides an hundred the like in the second not only sounding to that sence but directly and necessarily implying it And whereas you have sometimes the contrary as I noted * His 1. Reply to the 4 Reason follovving els where that doth but so much the more shew your inconstancy and contradiction of your self Shall I therefore now turne vpon you your owne words and say O strange dealing vvithout all shame in the vievv of the vvorld to father on me this foule vntruth c. Yet I am glad M. Iacob the truth prevaileth so much with you nill ye will ye as you are driuen to confesse that this assertion is a foule vntruth and senceles errour For herevpon it followeth first that your Proposition is not generall and therefore your whole Argument faulty and to no purpose at al for the question in hand secondly that of necessity there should be some clause ānexed to your Proposition touching the Antichristian abhominations among you if you would haue your Reason good for the estate of your Churches But you account such addition would be idle and vaine I easily beleeue you are so minded But why I pray you thinke you so Is it because you did not at first mind it or because now you see it would discouer to euerie man the vanitie of your Reason Howsoeuer it must be expressed And if your self either know not how to doe it or be vnwilling I will show it Mark now therfore Hovv Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist But the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly * Book of Articles published Anno 1562 professed and practised by Lavv in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluatiō And the publik Assemblyes of England are in their estate companyes so gathered together Therefore it is also sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist Or thus rather If the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Lavv in England be sufficient to make a particular man standing member of that Church which retaineth the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist yet notvvithstanding to be a true Christian and in state of saluation as tovvching his estate and standing in that Church then is it also sufficient to make a company so gathered together and consequently the Church of England to be a true Church of Christ as towching the estate and constitution thereof But the former say you is true Therefore also the latter But the former say I is false Therefore also the latter Thus M. Iacob should your Argument be framed in right forme of reasoning for the estate of your Church and for the question between vs. Which now being done who is so simple as cannot plainely see the falshood of both the Propositions in the former and of the Assumption in the latter and consequently the vanity of your Reason every way If you still hold otherwise then must we still call vpon you for proof Bare saying will not serue we looke for due proof Mind further that now as your case standeth you are to approve the estate of your Church and the members thereof not only as they retaine the abominatiōs of Antichrist but as they withstand also the contrary truth and way of Christ which hath ben a long time made known and offered vnto them Otherwise he that hath but half an eye may see you defēd not the present estate of the Churches of England as the title of your book pretendeth In that you say wheresoeuer there are any things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient in deed is not sufficient to make a true Christian you are againe mistaken There may be in the constitution of a Church things added destroying faith and yet so much truth be held and taught as to some particular men cōsidered apart from the constitution is sufficient to make them true Christians and in state of saluation the other being not imputed vnto them by the Lord. Thus I doubt not hath * Thus haue I spoken to you Mr Iacob many tymes Yet see hovv you haue novv dealt vvith me contrary to your knovvledg God saued some in the most popish Churches and many mo in yours from time to time Yet notwithstanding this doth not iustifie the estate either of their or of your Church neither doth it warrant any to abide therein But it argueth partly the riches of Gods mercie partlie the greatnes of his power who as at first he brought light out of darknes so in the worst times and euen in the darke kingdome of Antichrist saueth them that are his But of this besides that already spoken there will be occasion to speak more ‡ In the handling of the second Exception and 7. Reason folloing hereafter Your bad dealing about the first rest of the general points aboue named I haue declared before In deed your self may tremble to think thereon as on your Antichristian estate also in that Church You I say M. Iacob who cannot be ignorant of both these things howsoever you haue advisedly if not also vvilfully now written otherwise Mind therefore if you haue not here took heauen and earth to record against your self and whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs proceed to your Replies vpon the Exceptions and Reasons heretofore alledged against your Assumption And let the Reader mind without partialitie as before God which of vs haue the truth and accordingly let him walke in all good conscience before God and men Chap. 4. The first Exception against the Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson FIrst consider the 19. Article of that doctrine and Book which by your self is alleadged for your defence and see by it if your profession and practize be not contrary one to an other Yea see if it be not manifest euen by it that you haue not a true visible Church of Christ The words of the Article are these Artic. 19. The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure vvord of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same These are your owne words and
testimonies of theirs if the case were not as cleare as the Sunne at noone day But you say I depraue their meanings vtterly Why so I pray you Because they say not that all your Assemblies are such nor your vvhole Assemblies though they graunt very many such to be among you that is manie of your Church to be Atheists Papists Drunkards Whoremongers Thieves Murtherers Witches c. Alas M. Iacob it pittieth me to see your extreame follie and evill conscience Your follie that see not how both they and you giue the cause in this graunt and therby also testifie that I do not at all deprave their meanings Is it possible that your Church-assemblies should be full of such knowen vngodly persons and yet be Congregations of faithful men It never entred into my thought much lesse did I ever say it that your whole Assemblies are such I know and willingly accknowledg many of your Church not to be so for which I praise God Alwaies I except your publike worship and Idolatrie wherein all even the best among you are inwrapped This I said that your Assemblies are not congregations of faithful men but a confusion of all manner of people though never so vvicked And this you see do your owne men testifie Adde herevnto that both they and your self graunt your Assemblies herein ought to be reformed If they be already Congregations of faithfull men what reformation would you haue in this behalf But if their estate herein be such as they ought to be reformed why are you so shamles and foolish thus to speake as you do in all this matter Besides your folly you bewray an evill conscience in asmuch as you denie that thing the light whereof doth so shine in your conscience as even whiles you would shift it of you are constrained to acknowledg it whether you will or not Where you speak of your owne men that they deny not your Assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be seperated from it is to no purpose at all saue against your selfe For first though they speak it not in these very syllables yet the thing it self necessarily followeth vpon their words It is without question that the heathen Poets did themselues worship Idols yet notwithstanding sometimes they so spake in their writings as Paull doth * Act. 17.28.29 from thence conclude that not Idols but the true God onely is to be worshipped Had it now ben of waight for any of them to have alleadged against the Apostle that theit Poets did not deny Idols to be worshipped Yet you think it sufficient to withstand the truth with any such pretence Let this once spoken serve for aunswer to all your reproches wherewith you burden me many times for the collections which I deduce necessarily from your owne and other mens writings Secondly you are to know that it is not materiall against me whatsoever your men doe graunt or denie But against you it is who abide in the same Ministerie and of the same Church with them For that which you speak of the Church of the Iewes both auncient and in the time of Christ referring vs to another place hereafter in this book for proof of your comparison look you there also for aunswer therevnto And hitherto of the first point of your Article and profession differing from your practise and constitution For the second if you professe to preach the pure vvord of God as this Article requireth and yet againe both in profession and practise as here you acknowledg preach the impure and lying writings of Men such as be the Apocrypha books and your Homilies what is or can be more contrarie If your Article meane othervvise as you pretend it is full of deceit Neither shall any ever know what your profession is if your Articles doe thus crosse one another and your practise also agree with the worst But to cleare this point I aunswer furthermore 1. that it is a point of necessitie requisite that Gods vvord onely be taught For which see these Scriptures Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 Psal 119.113 Prov. 30.5.6 Esa 8.20 and 59.21 Ier. 23 16.28 Ioh. 5.39 Col. 3.16 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 and 2 Tim. 3.16.17 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 22.18.19 Thus by your owne exposition of this Article the Assumption of your maine Argument falleth and your Churches remaine in false constitution which is the question betweene vs. See the third Exception follovving In the aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply 2. The Apocrypha books maintained in the Church which you say is both your profession and practise overthroweth the truth of Christian religion and bringeth in Iudaisme Popery Atheisme and what not 3. Even in the Church of Rome where these books also are received yet withal the pure word is so preached among them by Law as no doubt to some is sufficient co salvation For proof whereof see the Rhemes Testament in their note vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Yet this hindreth not but that their Church maintaineth false doctrine as in that place also may be seen and standeth in false constitution Neither therefore can this help you It resteth then that you show the pure worde only to be preached among you by Lavv and that also according to Christes ordinance which yet you doe not neither can doe And therefore it is your self that say nothing but that you both professe practise errors Now it is well the truth so shineth in your heart as you confesse your Churches faile from the pure vvord in sundry lesser points Yet I pray you reckon vp these points in particular that by the worde of God it may be seen whether they be lesser or greater then you would beare vs in hand Then tell vs in whose power it is in your Church to redresse them Also why they are not redressed seeing you know them and haue ‡ Rev. 2.16.17 3.3 Mat. 18.15.16.17.20 1 Cor. 5.4.5 Lev. 4.13 2 Cor. 10.4.5.6 rules given by Christ for such cases if your Churches be his Lastly why you for your part abide in knowen errors and keepe not the truth and commaundements of Christ As touching that you say though they be errors yet they are not fundamentall neither doe in their owne nature abolish from Christ the fit place of handling this point followeth in the second Exception and seventh Reason to which places I referre it Yet in the meane time because here we are treating of the Apocrypha books tell me whether in retaining them you retaine not such errors as your self account fundamentall c. For example the book of Tobit teacheth that †Tob. 12.12.15 Angels doe present and bring to memory our prayers before the Lord. Now this honour you know is peculiar to Christ who “ 1 Tim. 2.5 onely is the Mediator of Intercession That Apocrypha doctrine therefore is blasphemous and an error in your sence as I take it fundamentall Adde herevnto that * 2 Mach. 12.43.44.45 offring vp of a sinne offring to God for
Auricular confession such like greeuous errors And yet notwithstāding dyed constantly for the truthes they saw some for one and some for another as God made manifest vnto them But may we now therefore so professe and practise in these things as they did Or if we should were their ignorance and errors a sufficient defence for vs Yet thus would you beare vs in hand Furthermore tell vs if M. Latimer and others did not forsake the Prelacy and functions they had before time received And Maister Ridley at his death repent that he had ben so earnest for the remnants of Popery in his time retained Besides who knoweth not that when M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. died Martyrs for the truth of Christ they neither had them selves nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for And not that onely but were members of that persecuted Church in Queene Maries dayes which was seperated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned in covenaunt by voluntary profession to obey the truth of Christ and to witnes against the abominations of Antichrist As they also did vnto death in the truth they saw though otherwise being but as it were in the twylight of the Gospell they had their wants and errors Yet who is so blind or besotted as not to see that their errors may not be our rules neither can be our warrant but rather that we ought after their example faithfully to stand in and for whatsoever trueth God revealeth vnto vs by his word And that otherwise those holy Martyrs shall rise in iudgment against all such as either withhould the trueth in vnrighteousnesse or in any respect refuse to walke therein Finally seeing GOD hath given vs “ Psal 119.105.128 Gal. 1.8.9 6.16 Deut. 12.32 Rev. 22.18.19.20 his vvord to be the light of our feete and rule of our liues and religion What meane you to lead vs from it to the aberrations of any men whatsoever Should not ‡ Esa 8.19 all people enquier at God or would you have vs go from the liuing to the dead From God and his word to men and their errors This doubtlesse is that wherevnto you would bring vs and whereby you mislead your favorites as will yet further appeare by that which followeth For what say you next Secondly you tell vs and wish it to be noted as we also do That Christes ordinances be of two sortes either written or vnwritten the first necessarie the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the inward opinion onely These say you are writtten The second touching outward orders in the Church and all outward governement and ceremonies These you say are not written but arbitrary at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate Thus you say you hold and practise and thinke no Scripture is against it For aunswer hereof First we aske what Scripture you have for it Secōdly we alledg against it these Scriptures and the like 1 Tim. 3.15 5. chap. 6.13.14 Tit. 1.5 c. Act. 1.3 2.40 c. 6. chap. 14.23 15. chap. 19.9 20.7.17.28 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Ephe. 4.11.12 1 Thes 5.12.13.14 Phil. 1.1.5 Heb. 3.1.2.3 13.17 Iam. 5.14 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3.4 1 Cor. 4.17 5. ◠11. 12. 14. Chap. and 16.1.2 Gal. 6.1.6 2 Thes 3.6.12.14.15 Mat. 18.15.16.17 28.18.19.20 Thirdly let it be observed that your self here graunt and cannot deny but all the outvvard gouernement and ceremonies of your Church are invented and arbitrary at the pleasure of man and not vvritten in the vvord of God Wherevpon it followeth that they are none of Christes and therefore not to be ioyned to at all Fourthly see how neare you are driven that are glad to run back into the Papists tentes where yet you know there is no succour Before you pleaded possession time out of mind now you tell vs of ordināces vnwritten c. Are not these meere popish shiftes even the old worne arguments of Antiquity and Vnvvritten verities so often and so much stood vpon by the Papists Alas that you should plead to be true Christians and yet thus openly take part with Antichrist What shall we say to these things Surely God is iust and wil verifie his word That they which receiue not the loue of the trueth 2 Thes 2.10.11.12 that they may be saued he vvill send them strong delusion to beleeue lyes that they may be damned Fifthly you make the ordinances touching outward gouernement and ceremonies to be no matters of faith neither vvritten at all This is very strange divinity And thus I shew it It is an ordinance not only concerning the inward but also the outward governemēt of the Church that Christ is Lord and King thereof Is it therefore no matter of faith It concerneth the outward governemēt vvhether the Pope be vnder Christ head of the Church or no Doth it not therefore concerne faith Publique prayer preaching of the vvord and hearing of it preached administration and receiuing of the Sacraments are matters cōcerning the outward gouernement and orders of the Church Doe they not therefore touch fayth Admonition and excommunication concerne also the outward governement of the Church Do they not therefore concerne faith Finally by this Divinitie the Sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper being Ceremonies shall with you be no matters of faith at all Yet here you stay not but adde moreover That the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church be arbitrarie at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate not vvritten nor certaine c. Wherevpon it followeth that it is not certen nor taught in the Scriptures but arbitrarie at the Churches and Magistrates pleasure Whether Christ or the Pope of Rome or Canterbury be head and Archbishop of the Church of God 2. Whether Iewes onely of the Tribe of Leui may now minister the holy things of God in his Church 3. Whether Christ hath given any giftes and set any Offices in his Church for the Ministery and guidance thereof 4. Whether prayer must be in a knowen or vnknowen toung 5. Whether the teaching and ruling Elders be to be had and honored 6. Whether the Church may excomunitate 7. Whether the Popes or any other Prelates excommunicatiō be to be regarded 8. Whether there be two or three or seauen Sacraments 9. Whether the Passeouer Circumcision and other Ceremonies and Sacrifices of the Lavv be now to be vsed 10. Whether the Heathenish sacrifices and vvorship be to be ioyned withall 11. Whether creame oyle salt spittle crossing and coniuring may be vsed in Baptisme 12. Whether the bread onely and not the cup is to be given to the lay people as you cal them 13. Whether holy water holy ashes holy palmes and such like be of the holy things of the Church 14. Whether the Iewish and the Popish Vestments Fasts and holy dayes are to be observed And a
thousand such like which are all of them concerning the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church By your Diuinitie these and infinite such like are vnvvritten and vncerten but left onely to the pleasure of the Church and Magistrate Yea if it please you the Princes and ciuill Magistrates may them selues be the publique Ministers of the vvord Sacraments and Censures of the Church 2. Any that will may without a calling take vpon him to be a publque Officer in the Church 3. Women may baptise or administer the Lords supper 4. The Iewish Romish or Heathenish Priesthood may be retained 5. Auricular confessiō may be vsed 6. The Keyes of the kingdome of heauen may be appropriated to the Pope of Rome or the Prelate of Canterbury or any other whōsoever 7. The Prelates and their Officials excōmunications do bind in heaven 8. The Apocryphall books and Decretall epistles are Canonicall scriptures 9. The Popes Portuis and the English book of prayer taken out of it are the true and lawfull worship of God 10. The Prelates and Priestes are the true and lawfull Ministers of God 11. Orders Penaunce Extreame vnction Matrimony c. are the Sacramentes of the Church 12. Surplus Cope Cap Tippet Rotchet c. are ornaments of the Ministery Finally all ragges and trumperies of the Romish religion are good and lawfull if it please the Church and Magistrate For why They concerne the outward gouernement orders and ceremonies of the Church And touching them you say Christ hath left no ordinances written certen not perpetuall but left them at the arbitrary appointment of the Church and Magistrate Is not this strange Diuinity Yet you stay not here neither but as men that have bent their tongues like bowes for lyes you feare not to adde further that when the Church and Magistrate appointeth any ordinances whether these or any other touching the outward gouernement and ceremonies of the Church we are to account them Christes owne who hath left this liberty to the Church for to vse O shameles mouth O vnchristian hart Can any Papist or Atheist say more Or can any desire a more euident proof then this that you and your Assemblies thus holding professing and practising as here your self affirme cannot in this estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians and Churches Sixtly you do yet further seek shifts and would colour the matter by pretending That the things which concerne outward gouernement and ceremonies are not of the foundation simply But this will help you no more then the other For first we aske are they of the foundation at all though not simply If they be then seing they are not written nor certen nor perpetuall as here by you is affirmed it will follow that neither the whole foundation is written certen or perpetuall neither the Apostles were faithfull and skilfull maister builders in the laying thereof If they be not then why is this word simply added as if you granted they were of the foundation though not simply Secondly we aske whether the outward gouernement and ceremonies ordained by Christ for his Church vnder the Gospell be not of the foundation asmuch as the outward gouernemēt and ceremonies appointed by Moses for the Church vnder the Law Or if they be whether they are not as faithfully set downe by Christ as the other were by Moses and as carefully to be observed by vs as the other were by the Iewes or rather more inasmuch as * Heb. 3.2.3 Christ the Sonne is worthy of more glory and honour then Moses the seruant Thirdly we aske what fundamentall poinctes Moses and Aaron with the rest of the Iewes ioyning with them held that ‡ Num. 16. chap. Corach Dathan Abiram and their cōpanions held not differing frō them and erring onely touching the Priesthood and Ministery which concerned the outvvard orders and gouernemēt of the Church Was therefore Corah Dathan Abiram and their companie in that estate the true Israell of God Or were not the other truthes they held by this meanes frustrate and of none effect vnto thē Nay were they not therefore vvholy to be separated from and left to the iudgment of God which overtook them and all that ioyned vnto them Yet was their error onely in matters of order and outvvard gouernement of the Church This may serve to convince your vntrue assertions in this place To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c is aunswered before For conclusion I adde concerning this poinct That all such assemblies and people as hold professe and practise as doth the Church of England these abominations following can not by the word of God be esteemed in such estate truely to holde Christ their Prophet Priest King viz. 1. The confusion of all sortes of people though never so wicked and their seed in the body of the Church 2. The offices and callings of other Archb. and Lordb. then Iesus Christ also of Archdeacons Priestes halfe Priestes Parsons Vicars c. 3. The entrance into the Ministery by another way and other Lords then Iesus Christ 4. The executing of it vnder these strange Lords and leaving it at their pleasure 5. The preaching of the word administration of the Sacraments and governing of the Church by vertue of the offices and callings aforesayd and according to the Popish Canons and constitutions 6. The power of Excommunication in the Prelates alone and their Officialls 7. The confounding of Civill and Ecclesiasticall offices and authority in the Ministers of the Church 8. The forbidding of Mariage at certen seasons 9. The imposing and vsing of stinted deuised Leiturgies The English Portuis taken out of the Popes Latine one word for word saue that a few of the grosest things are left out yet keeping the same frame and order of Collects Psalmes Lessons Pater nosters Pistles Gospels Persicles Respondes c. 10. Appointing holy daies to all Sainctes and Angels to the Virgin Mary Iohn Baptist Mark Luke and twelue Apostles severally 11. togeather with Fastes on the Evens and on Ember dayes Fridayes Saturdayes and Lent 12. Prescribing the Ministers to pray over the dead over the Corne and Grasse at some season of the yeare and over Women at their Churching or purification 13. Enioyning them to marry with the King which they make a sacramentall signe 14. And to Baptise with the signe of the Crosse with Godfathers and Godmothers with questions demaunded of the infant that cannot speake nor vnderstand 15. Giving power to Womē to baptise 16. And ordaining that the other Sacrament of the Lords Supper be celebrated kneeling as when they received their maker and with change of the words of Christes institution taking in steed of them the wordes of the Popes Masse book translated into English c. Finally the vpholding of these and all such amongst them onely by carnall weapons of imprisonment death confiscation of goods bānishmen and such like The Assemblies and people I say which hold professe and practise as doeth this
before But now because you bid me speak out what difference I put between your Churches and the Martyrs as also between you and my self holding these things of late with you hearken and I will tell you againe First for the Martyrs in former times mark these differences Differences betvveene the Martirs and Church of Engl. 1. Greater light of the truth is now come into the world then was in those daies but you loue darkenes rather then light For still you walk in darknes Ioh. 3.19 Ephes 5.11 2. They witnessed against the abominations of Antichrist then called in question to the losse of their libertie and lives Your Church doth not so against the remnants of Poperie now cōtroverted but do either openly defend them or fearefully submit vnto them 3. They consisted not of swarmes of Atheists adulterers drunkards and all sorts of people good and bad even knowen wicked ones mixed together in one body as your Church doth 4. Such of them as were Ministers were degraded from their Antichristian functions so are not yours 5. They died not members of Antichrists Church nor for any error they held but for the truth You stil remaine members of Antichistian Churches both withstanding the truth and maintaining errors 6. They were and died members of a true visible Church viz that persecuted Church in Queen Maries daies which was separated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary submission therevnto though in that time of ignorance they had their wants and errors You continew members of a false constituted Church vnseparated from the world yeelding subiection to Antichristian enormityes against the ordinances of Iesus Christ 7. They refused not the truth offred neyther resisted those that did iustly reprove theyr errors but your Church doth both as appeareth by your continuall practise and by the books and Acts of Parliament made openly and with authority against vs for witnessing the truth 8. Your Prelats Priests and people that is your Churches in your estate are no Martyrs but children of them which killed the Martyrs and do at this day fill vp the measure of your forefathers persecuting to death such as haue the testimony of Iesus This did not the Martyrs Are not you then the men that white the toombes of the Martyrs which were in former tymes and yet your selves imprison banish and kill the witnesses of Iesus that are among you at this day Take heed you hearden not your hearts but tremble at your fearefull estate and please not your selues in vnrighteousnes by the error of any neither blesse your selves still in iniquitie Hitherto of the difference between the Martyrs and your Churches Now for my self I confesse as I did * Pag. 8. before of the Martyrs that whiles I was Minister and member of your Church in that constitution I stood in Antichristian estate Yet doubt I not but euen then being of the elect of God I was partaker through faith of the mercy of God in Christ to saluation And this I hope is the case of divers among you But for my self I haue now the more assurance in that God hath both drawen me out of that Antichristian estate giuing me to see and to forsake it and hath planted me in his true Church and household giuing me to receiue his truth in much affliction with ioy of the holy Ghost 1 Thes 1.6 But as for you in your estate besides that yet you are not members of any true visible Church you do moreover abide in grosse confusion false Ministery Antichristian worship and other abominations by the word of God already discovered Now whiles you thus remaine you cannot in that estate approve your selves to have the promise of saluation whereof by the word of God you can be assured vntill you depart out †Rev. 18.4.5 Act. 2.40.47 Micah 2.10 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Ephe. 2.12.19 of that Babylō and save your selues from that froward generatiō being also by the Lord added to his true Church Which mercy I hope God daily doth and will vouchsafe many among you belonging to his election Thus you see how notwithstanding any thing we eyther do or can acknowledge touching the Martyrs or ourselves heretofore yet still we affirme and prove your estate to be Antichristiā So far are we frō graunting your Assumption as here you fancy with your self Your vaine questions Whether your whole assemblyes all and every of your assemblyes erre of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience whether we know the heart and conscience of men c. How fond and friuolous are they All of you erre by your owne graunt Whether any of you do it with a convicted conscience let God iudge who knoweth the heart Your self it seemeth deny not this to be the case of some among you Howsoever seeing you confesse that you erre why do you and the rest being so perswaded stil abide in error Is it because you †Ioh. 3.19 love darknes more then light Or because ‡ Act. 28.26 27. when you see yet you wink with your eyes least you should convert to the Lord and be healed If you would not leaue such as you imagine see it not how wil you ever know whether they that refuse do see it or not And why have you not al this time made it knowen to them and donne what lyeth in you to draw them from error Or having done it and finding them obstinate in evill yea persecuters of the truth revealed why have you not after the ‡ Act. 2.40.41 13.45.46.51 18.6 and 19.9 28.24 c. example of the Apostles separated from such and taught others to do the like Above all why plead you for their estate to be good warrantable in the way of salvation notwithstanding their errors and abominations Is not this to dawbe with vntempered morter Is it not to prophesie peace to the wicked and to promise them life to sow pillowes vnder their elbowes and to strengthen their hands in evill that they should not returne from their wicked way Ier. 23.16.17 Ezech. 13. Chap. Mal. 2.17 Where you say if we knew some convicted in conscience yet it serueth not our turne vnles all be so conuicted sure you mind not what you speak Did Christ ever give such a rule to his Church Or should there ever be Church separated from the world if this course were kept Besides what meane you by all being convicted Whether all in a house or all in a towne or all in a kingdome or all in the world Whether all of echser men and women of all ages yong and old of all estates hy and low rich and poore bond and free c. What also by being convicted Whether when sufficient is showed to convince men though they see it not or when they see it yet acknowledg it not or when they see and acknowledg it yet notwithstanding persist in their former estate or if vnto all these
they adde the persecuting also of such as do convince them Now when you have showed how your self vnderstand and how we are to walke in these according to the Scriptures from point to point then applie herevnto your example of Christ here alledged and see if you do not abuse it Mind withall that if you say Christ knew this as he was God you speak nothing to the question which is how men must walk toward men If you say he knew it as he vvas man then must you prove 1. that these Iewes were convicted in conscience that he was the Christ and yet denied and blasphemed him 2. that Christ knew this as he was man 3. that still he joyned in spirituall communion with them thus convicted 4. that the estate of your Ministers and people is such as theirs was then as touching a true Ministerie and constitution of the Church 5. that the same rules and proceeding is to be vsed toward your Church and members thereof afore they can be separated from that was to be vsed toward that Church and People at that time Mind also that the Apostles preaching to the Iewes though they knew not who were convicted in conscience who not yet * Act. 2. et 13. et 17. et 18. et 19. chap vpon their refusall of the truth offred did separate from all where they were And so Christ before had required them to do Mat. 10.14 Finally mind that mens consciences are blind ignorant corrupt and the heart of man deceitful and wicked above all things Who can know it but the Lord only which searcheth the heart and trieth the reines to give every man according to his waies according to the fruit of his works Ier. 17.9.10 It is erroneous therefore to hold as you do that we may not separate till we know all to be convicted in their conscience If this were to be done then neither separation from any people neither any true Churches should ever be vpon the earth because such conviction can never be either knowen of men or had in the world It doth and must suffice vs that the truth on the one hand and the errors on the other be made knowen and convicted that is be layd open and proved from the word of God by the testimonie of his servants and that we see men by words or workes refuse the truth and imbrace error and so judg themselves vnworthy of euerlasting life Thus for your Churches M. Iacob it sufficeth vs that in your Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of people they be proved the daughters of Babylon that mother of whoredomes Out of which God hath †Rev. 18.4 17.5 vve Ezec. 16.44 charged all his people without exception or delay presently for to depart If you or any other will not obey this commaundement of God but will still partake in the sinnes of your worship and Ministery what is it to vs We must follow Christ * Heb. 5.9 who is made author of saluation to such onely as obey him Neither may we †Ier. 15.19 returne vnto you but we must waite till God bring you to vs and make you partakers of the same grace in Christ Of your third generall point here idly mentioned and absurdly gathered I have spoken before Pag. 8. Next instead of aunswering you fall a marveling because I say Mr. Hus and other of the holy Martyrs did heare and say Masse to their dying day and some of them also acknowledg the Popes supremacy But why do you not also marvell that I sayd divers of them acknowledged some the Popes calling some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some Auricular confession and such like grieuous errors For these I ioyned with the other and of them you speak not a word Belike you thinke they may stand with the Gospell wel inough and if your Church had retained or now should resume them againe you would judg of them as of the other corruptions remaining among you Yet mind withall 1. that thus you make a way for mo popish enormities to be mainteined and to prevaile apace in your Church as “ Hovv say you to those Popish doctrines novv spreading among you of Christes soule descēding into Hel. of freevvill c. beginneth alredy very fast 2. And that you can no better nor otherwise defend your present Church-estate then you could if it also retayned seven Sacraments Purgatory Auricular confession c. Let the Reader observe this And beware you in time least a wo come vpon you for such halting and pleading for Baall Now for your marvelling at me for saying thus of Mr. Hus and other the Martyrs I aske you Saith not the book of Acts and Monuments the same yea say not the Martyrs thus much of themselves Why do you not then marvell also at them For these particulars it were needles to go through all the historie of the Martyrs specially seeing they are so plainly noted in their stories and every where among you the books are in your hands Yet because Mr. Hus is here spoken of by name and you are not far frō rasing him out of the nūber of the Martyrs I will first note some particulars concerning him and then cleare him and the rest from your rash condemnation In the historie of the Martyrs before mentioned we find that Iohn Hus vnto his death held 1. †Act. and Monu edit 5. pag. 561. seven Sacramēts 2. ‡ Ibid. pag. 581. a. 584. b the Popes office and the authority of the Church of Rome 3. “ Ibid. p. 566 b. et 574. Auricular cōfession to Priests and was himself a little before his death confessed and absolved by a Monke 4. * Ibid. p. 577 a. et 581. a. said Masse himself 5. †Ibid. p. 546 held that the substance of the bread was altered into the body of Christ and that Christs body which was borne of the virgin Mary is really and totally in the Sacrament of the Altar with other the like popish opinions Now you Mr. Iacob sticke not vpon some of these to inferre that then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest that so held and did vvere holy Martyrs Your reason is because therein are found errors plainely fundamētall vvhich of them selues abolish from Christ Among which no doubt but you reckon the Masse and transubstantiation specially Thus haue you cleane put out Maister Hus and other the servants of Christ faithfull in that which they saw from being any longer in the Catalogue of the Martyrs or accounted true Christians May I not then iustly returne vpon your self your owne saying Is this you that vvhite the toombes of the Martyrs and yet in fine condemne them for no true Christians for no holy Martyrs But you say the book of Acts and Monuments vvhither I send you affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Let the book it self speak for vs both In the end of Iohn Hus his storie thus it saith
Agayne when in the first place you say thus we practise and in the latter we shevved before and both these are true of your self who could exclude you from being one of the number in both the places Further it is here to be noted how playnely you affirme these two things agayne 1. That your Church-corruptions are from Antichrist 2. That yet your Church holds them to be Christs owne A most silly absurd and godles defence of a Church as ever was seen That it is tedious vnto you to have your corruptions reckned vp it is no marvell Yet if they be so odious as it grieue you to heare them but named why doth it not more affect you to practise them to partake in and with them and so to increase your sinnes and iudgement before the Lord Heretofore when you preached against them and sued to the Parliament to haue them remoued it was a pleasure to you and all the Reformists to name them to print them to make your pulpits ring of theÌ„ and every where to cry out against them as most filthy and abominable Then if any reckned vp “ Admon to the Parl. Miles Monopodius The Râ—gisur c. above an hundred of them together one after another they were nothing tedious but very welcome Now to mention or heare but some of them is altogether yrksome A very great and strauÌ„ge alteration yet in deed not to be marveled at if it be well mynded For then you seemed to seek and stand for the truth now you resist and strive against it then you would professe Christ against the Prelates now you do hand your selues with them against him And yet behold in all these evils you blesse your selves and them toâ— For what els is this that you say these multitude of Antichristian abominations abolish vs not from Christ Is it not as if you sayd ‡ Deut 29.19 We shall have peace though we walk according to the stubbernes of our hearts Alas Mr Iacob that you should come to this height of impiety thus to blesse and please your selves in the vnrighteousnes of Antichrist that some of perdition then which what greater iudgement could haue come vpon you 2 Thes 2 12. This is not to break and teach to break one of the least commaundements but many of the greatest Mat. 5.19 Now vnlike are you and such other false Prophets of the Beast which say these are to fevv to sleight of to small moment c. How vnlike I say are you to the Prophets of God and Martyrs of Iesus who did alway cry out and witnesse against the least Idolatry they saw amoÌ„g the people They did not sow pillowes vnder their elbowes as you do but denounced the judgements of God against them and refused to partake in their iniquitie So do not you But this belike is your following of Christ this is your obedience of faith even to plead for Antichrist and to do the works of darknes and abomination and yet to say with your hypocriticall forefathers Is not the Lord among vs No evill can come vnto vs. Micah 30 11. Yet you would have vs beleâ—â— that you go not about to dazell the peoples eyes c. Yes Mr. Iacob you do it and proceed in it daily from evill to worse But flatter your selues and them towching the constitution of your Church as long as you will with your lying words of Christ of fayth Ierem. 7.4 c. like as the Iewes amidst all their impieties still vaunted of the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord c. yet this remaineth vpon your heads notwithstanding that these abominations of Antichrist retained among you do of themselues and of their owne naturâ— abolish your Assemblies from being the Churches of Christ or holding his faith in that constitution and practise This I haue proved †Pag. 3.16.60.63 c. before wherein if you rest not you may reply againe Or if you desier more evidence see these Scriptures 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 2 Thes 2-12 Col. 2.8.20.21.22.23 Psal 119.21 Ephes 5.11 1 Ioh. 4.3 and 2 Ioh. ver 9.10.11 Rev. 13.11 and 14.9.10.11 and 17 1-6 and 18. and 19. chap. and 22.18 19. And for mans record see Mr Beza who is as playne as playne may be In an epistle written in the yeare 1566. to Mr Grindall then Bishop of Lord â—â— concerning the present estate of the Church of England thus he saith If those things be true Bez. Epist. 8. vvhich I think haue not likely hood of truth viz that the Metropolitans retaine in vse those most filthy abuses then which the Church of Antichrist hath not any thing more intolerable namely pluralityes of benefices licences of non-residency licences to marry and eat flesh and other the like this vvere certainely vvhich I speak with horrour not a corruption of Christianity but a manifest defection from Christ and therefore they not to be condemned but praysed rather vvhich should oppose themselues to such endevours These are his words Where note 1. That the things are most true and rise among you which he thought were not so much as likely 2. That he speaketh but of fower or five of your corruptions and yet sayth they are a manifest apostasy and departure froÌ„ Christ yea such as he affirmeth he speaketh not without horrour How miserable then is the estate of your Church which hath not onely these fower or five but even an huge masse and endles multitude besides And how fearfull is the case of you all who will yet notwithstanding still abide in that Church and therefore cannot but partake in her sinnes Rev. 13.4 and be subject to her plagues Most of all what an heavy Wo hangeth ouer your head Mr Iacob who feare not yet so boldly to affirme that these some these 91. are to fevv and to sleight and of to small moment of themselues of their owne nature to abolish you from Christ Is not this to strengthen the hands of the wicked that he should not returne from his wicked way by promising him life Is it not to say vnto him Thou art righteous every one that doth evill is good in the sight of the Lord and he deliteth in them Yea is it not to please your selves in vnrighteousnes to condemnation Ezech. 13.22 Mal. 2.17 2 Thes 2.12 Then also why proue you not that which you say You heare beside the Scriptures before alledged that Mr Beza speaking but of fower or five of your abominations sayth they are a manifest defection from Christ Now I suppose you will not deny but manifest defection from Christ doth of it self and of it owne nature abolish from Christ Besides if it be true of fower or five of your corruptioÌ„s how much more of your 91. yea of your hundreds Specially when to the retayning of them you haue now a long tyme added persecution against the truth for the maintenance of them Or what will you aunswer to your self Mr Iacob who haue
against all the transgressions thereof Or will it take hold of others and shall you staye free Howsoever your self seem careles what you say or do yet let others mynd their fearfull estate in that Church which retaineth such a multitude of Antichristian corruptions here graunted by your self to be against the Second commaundement the breach whereof God hath threatned to punish most severely And let it be observed that you who have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches and Ministery yet cannot deny that to be your estate Behold then to what issue your Defence is come in the end And now that you see hovv much I have made of this point at your request forget not to thank me for it in your next Reply The Scripture here alledged you would turne away from your selves by saying it is of Saul a presumptuous offender 1 Sam. 15.23 But that Scripture is not for Saul onely but for “ 1 Cor. 10.11 Rom. 15.4 others likewise And how will you shew that Saul was a more presumptuous and wilfull offender then your self and your Church Nay how will you shew that his sinne was meerly of presumption and wilfulnes The Scripture mentioneth two other causeâ— alledged by himself ‡ 1 Sam. 15.15 an intent to sacrifice to the Lord and †vers 24. feare of the people 〈◊〉 and your Church can hardly yeeld like reasons for your selvâ—s â—et if you could they 〈◊〉 not sâ—â—nd before God as this Scripture witnesseth Your clause of making your whole Churches so importeth that you take the case of some the 〈◊〉 not of all among you to be as Sauls was Then take you heed Mr. Iacob and the rest of like iudgement and practise as you â—re What I think of your whole Churches as towching their constitution I have often shewed before 3. For the third I meane it of the Antichristian abominations remayning among you and the like Neither could you be ignorant hereof seing I had a litle ♣ Pag. 63.64.65 before reckned vp so many of them in particular But you would not seem to know it because you can not prove the contrarie against it For proof of my assertion I alledg these Scriptures Exod. 20. 〈◊〉 compared with 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 Col. 2.8 Revel 1â— â—0 10.11 with ver 4. ver 12. Revel 17 1-6 with Hos 2.2 Prou. 6.27 28.32 7.22.23.27 9 13-18 2 Thes 23-12 2 Ioh. vers 9.10.11 Your inwrapping of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I have vnfolded before Pag. 8.41 Of all the reasons and differences which I named concerning you and them you picke out but one or two and the rest you passe by Now of them which you except against the first is that they suffred to death for the truth they saw Which my words you have altered thus that they for seeke all the corruptions they saw But beside the alteration your answer also is to be noted I alledged hat the Martyrs suffred to death for the truth they saw you answer this belongeth to many thousands in England no lesse then to them Can you now iustifie either your dealing or your answer Or can you shew seme hundreds of your Church in stead of your manie thousands For myne owne part if you had thousands of such I wish they were many millions But I feare that the contrarie of your speach is to true viz that there are many thousands in England so far from suffring death for the truth they see like those Martyrs as they will not 〈◊〉 imprisoÌ„ment bannishement losse of goods or the like for that truth which they do not onely see but which themselues have heretofore professed preached sued for to the Parliament c. So far are they from for â—alâ—ing all the corruption they see that I may vse your owne words Yea who can think otherwise by their estate and practise but if a Queâ—â— Mary came againe which God for did the 〈◊〉 of the Land would 〈◊〉 as the Prince beleveth and be ready to receive againe the points of Poperie now reiected as it was heretofore after King Edwards decease Marke that I speake of the face of the Land generally not of ever it particular person therein Of divers among you I have better hope as I have shewed before pag. 7. Yet for your generall state as the questioÌ„ is who can say but you are readie to receive any religion or any thing in religion to go forward or backward even as pleaseth the Prince and best fitteth your turne for avoiding of trouble and enioying your ease wealth safety c. And where then be the many thousaÌ„ds you speak of Or may wee think this is to forsake corruption and hold forth the truth as the Martyrs did Nay Mr. Iacob it is far from it And this you may note as a great difference between your estate and the Martyrs and ioyne it to the other mentioned before pag. 40.41 Now where you say there are infinite of your Church that know not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignorant of redemption by Christ c. How shew you this to be true Although if it be it is no great commendation to your Church considering what meanes of further knowledg God hath vouchsafed since that tyme. But of this point I will not stand so much I aunswer that to make your comparison hold you must compare with those learned men the learned among you and with the vnlearned then the vnlearned of yours now So shall your self and others see how vntrue your speach is Although I doubt not but even many of the vnlearned among you who have knowledge of redemption by Christ know also more of the corruptions aforesaid then those learned men did Towching that you speak of my self I have aunswered before Pag. 41. The second thing you except against concerning the Martyrs is that I said the things now controverted were not then so called in question and coÌ„vinced against them by the Scriptures as now they haue ben against you So I sayd Now speak you were they or not If they were shew it If not yeeld it But you would have me to meane this towching some few among you and not of all If it were but so yet then the thing is done more synce then in those daies But in deed the calling in question and conviction of these things hath not ben onely to some few as you would perswade The Admonitions have ben to the whole Parliament which are as the body of the whole Land and gathered from all the quarters thereof Your preaching likewise against those corruptions hath gone throughout the whole Realme So have your books written and printed against them Finally our testimony by word writing imprisomnent exile death is knowen throughout the Land Why then would you have me speak this of some few that here and there might be picked out And whereas you cannot deny but the case of some among
whither you refer vs for it though there the Reader shall finde you aunswer not the severall Scriptures here alledged for proof of it In the meane time let this be noted that here againe you graunt your Church corruptions are against the Second commaundement Therefore may none that feare God and will be assured to escape his wrath bow downe vnto them Exod. 20.5.6 Deut. 5.9.10 and 6.10.11 and 28.15.16 c. Psal 106.29 Next where I speak of your breach of the second coÌ„maundement as being spirituall whoredome you except against it as if I mismatched things otherwise then they are in deed But how can that be seing the Scriptures ‡ Pag. 68. there alledged prove that which I said Or will you say your case is not spirituall whoredome which God in that commaundement hath straitlie forbidden and severelie threatned to punish This then being so it is your self Mr Iacob that mismatch things otherwise then in deed they are For your case is not as you would pretend by your similitude like a wanton word a light gesture or contenaunce or an immodest thought of a woman But I will tell you what it is like Even as when a woman vnfaithfull to her husband is found to commit filthynes with other men after whom she goeth a whoring Now such a one whatsoever smooth speach countenance or excuse she pretend yet is in deed an whore and for this cause to be divorced That your case is such your going a whoring after Antichrist whose ordinances Hierarchie worship confusion c. are retained among you testifies to your faces Fitly therefore do we applie the Scriptures against you and your selves it is that sinne against the Third commaundement in misapplying of them as I shewed sufficientlie in my former answer against which you can say nothing To the proof of the Assumption you yeeld now at length Neither can I otherwise thinke of your aunswer seing I have proved my speach to be proper and the Scriptures fitly alledged and you refuse to iustify your owne Articles and estate Yet least you should againe cavill and delude the Reader I aske you Have I not concluded the question in a Syllogisme Why then do you not aunswer directlie to some part of it Have I not proved the Proposition by Scripture and the Assumption by your owne Writings and practise The Conclusion then must needs be true vnles one of the Propositions could be disproved which you are so far from as you never go about to do it The marginall note then is no scoffe but a iust reproof of your ignorance which in deed deserveth much more But I spare you and leave it to others to iudge whether you do any thing els in all you say but winde in and out to hide the truth and blinde the Reader if you could The Scriptures which I alledged for proof of the Proposition you handle as if I had brought them for proof of the Assumption Who is it now think you that is in a dreame Agayne your owne Books profession and practise by which I proved the Assumption you towch not at all Nay you say plainely it is no part of your mynd to iustify them Whether it be for that you see they can not possibly be iustifyed or because you want skill in your self or charity towards your Church for the doing of it let others inquire Sure I am that thus you give the cause For this belongs directly vnto it as all may see that have any vnderstanding and your self I suppose will not deny when you have called your wits a litle better togeather Chap. 8. The second Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THat which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine that cannot make either true Christians or true Churches But the doctrine publikely professed and practized by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God in vaine Therefore c. Of the trueth of the Proposition none can doubt And the Assumption is thus proved That which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God by the precepts of Man that appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine This Christ affirmeth out of Esay the Prophet Mat. 15.9 with Esay 29.13 But the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in EnglaÌ„d appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God by the precepts of man This appeareth by the 35. and 36. Articles of the book alledged and by their other books of Articles Canons Iniunctions Common prayer their Holy dayes Fasting dayes Censures Hierarchy c. All which are the precepts of men and authorised by Law in England Therefore the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine And consequently cannot make a particuler man a true Christian nor the assemblies so gathered together true Churches H. IACOB his 1. Replie to the 2. Reason THis your Second Reason is This booke and others appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine Ergo c. 1. This also hath answere in the third Exception Pag 57. 2. Also note I pray you this Scripture Mat. 15. is verified of such as were then of the true visible ♣ Marke his open contrariety with hiÌ„self granting this in Reas 6 Church with vvhom Christ and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometimes ioyne and communicate This therefore maketh for vs and against you most notably FR. Io. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Reason THe Reason is as you see it propounded before Nâ—w what propositioÌ„ do you deny Not any at all What defence then bring you of your book of Common prayer and the particulars therein of your books of Articles and Iniunctions of your Prelacy and other Ministery receyved froÌ„ then according to your popish Pontificall of your Canons and Excommunications c. Surely none neyther What then do you answer Not a word but that you refer vs to your answer before in the last Exception whither also we refer the Reader with this note that there he shall finde nothing either for answer of any proposition of this argument or for defence of your worship Prelacy Ministery and Church gouernement called into question Is not this then a worthie and Clerck like answer Have you not may we thinke good proof for your present estate and Church-constitution which thus leave it altogeather without defence even when it most needeth and as it were beggeth your help and succor if you could affoard it any Yet now having no aunswer to any part of the Argument you bid vs note that this Scripture Mat. 15. here alledged is verifyed of such as were then of the true visible Church with whom Christ himself and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometyme ioine and communicate This therefore you say maketh for you and against vs most notably 1 But first tell vs if ‡ As that of Lev. 10.1.2.3 Num. 16 1.
Disciples who also were Iewes observed them not and therefore the Pharisees complained Thus you see they were not received of all the Iewes as heretofore I shewed not onelie in the Disciples but in divers other by name Pag. 84. Of whom you cannot denie but it is true They were the personall sinnes of some not the publik established Law neither generallie received and practised in that Church as I noted yours to be in your Assemblies that is of all the members thereof Neither is there anie comparison between yours and theirs as besides that which I have shewed before may appeare even by the vvaterpots here mentioned by your self Of the lawfull or vnlawfull vse whereof I need not stand to speak it being evident that they were no waie so vnlawfull or of such nature as your corruptioÌ„s are Let this then which hath ben said suffice to shew how true and pertinent my aunswers be That there is no contrariety between anie thing spoken here and in the sixt Reason following the Reader may see And that it is your self who do evill and defend it too there need no other witnes but the title and contents of your book togeather with your estate Concerning the thing which here you obiect I have proved alreadie that * Mat. 15.9 this and ‡ See before Pag. 83. other Scriptures being spoken of vaine worshippers in the true Church have ben and may be alledged much more against all vaine worship in the false Church whether it be yours or the Papists or anie other whatsoever And saie your self if the Martyrs have not both ben perswaded that the Iewes were a true Church and yet alledged this Scripture against the Papists as against a false Church Are these contrary I pray you that they need be reconciled Then do you reconcile them for the Martyrs For sure I see no need of it Chap. 9. The third Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF the whose doctrine as it is publiquelie professed and practized by Law in England be not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit vnto Circumcision Then much lesse is it able to make him a true Christian that together with it submitteth vnto a false Ministerie Worship and Governement of the Church devised by man even the man of sinne But the first is true Therefore also the latter The consequence of the Proposition is good because Circumcision was once the holie ordinance and appointment of God himself to his Church and people whereas the Ministerie Worship and Governement aforesaid never was so but is mans device in religion even Antichrists that capitall enemie of Iesus Christ The Assumption is proved Gal 5.2.3.4 where the Apostle speaketh of them that held not onelie such trueths of the Gospell as are in that book of Articles but more then those Yet if they should withall submit to Circumcision he saith they vvere abolished from Christ Christ vvould profit them nothing H. Iacob his first Reply to the 3. Reason THis your Third Reason is from the more to the lesse negatiuely to this effect A Galatian vsing Circumcision is a likelier Christian then one of our Englâ—sh holding the Hierarchy and other traditions But a Galatian is a false Christian Ergo An English professor is much more We ansvver We denie the Assumption Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies true Churches Gal. 1.2 Therefore this Reason is nought If you obiect The Apostle saith such are abolished from Christ. That is in deed some amongst them as held Moses ceremonies necessarie absolutlie to salvation as Act. 15.1 And that †Gal. 5.3 4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 Iustification vvas by the morall vvorkes of the lavv Novv the Churches of Galatia generallie vvere not such but held the saving faith sound doubtles though manie amngest them vvere tainred vvith that infection by reason of some mischeuous teachers that vvere crept in and too vvell interteined among them Hovvbeit vvith the Church Communion vvas kept and therefore so vvith vs you ought to deale If you say vve are vvorse Christians then those grosest Galatians It is vtterly false prove it if you can and it must dravve in Maister Cranmer c. vvith vs also If you say there are many amongst vs as bad or vvorse then those vvorst Galatians you may say it but prove it you cannot Also if it vvere so yet this disgraceth it destroyeth not the Church like as hath ben sayd of the Galatians Fr. Io. his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Reason YOur first answer is that you deny the Assumption Which in plaine termes is asmuch as if you had given the holy Ghost the lye who by the Apostle Paule affirmeth it Gal. 5.2.3.4 As in the proof of the Assumption was shewed before But for the more evidence of the truth I will set this downe in a Syllogisme thus If a Galatian submitting to Circumcision though he hold all the truths of the Gospell professed in EnglaÌ„d withall yet be notwithstanding abolished from Christ and falne from grace Then is he not in this estate a true Christian But the former is true as the Apostle testifieth Gal. 5.2 3 4. Therefore also the latter And yet the former you deny that is the Assumption Therefore you give the lie to the holy Ghost who affirmeth it Next you aunswer that the Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies Churches Gal 1.2 Therefore say you this Reason is nought But you may not thus runne away with the matter and deceive your self and your simple favourers The question is not Whether any Galatians vvere true Christians or any of their Assemblies true Churches For who ever doubted of that But this is the question Whether a Galatian holding all the truths of the Gospell novv professed in England and vvithall submitting to CircuÌ„cisioÌ„ vvere in that estate a true Christian Or putting the case that there were whole Assemblies consisting of such Whether those AsseÌ„blies then in that case were by Gods word to be deemed the true Churches of Christ The Apostle testifieth and saith No You say Yea. Now whether of you two it is meet wee beleeve let all men iudge But what is it then will you say that the Apostle termeth the assemblies of the Galatians true Churches Gal. 1.2 You shew the reason your selfe the light of the truth is so cleare and manifest There were but some of the Galatians that were infected with this error of Circumcision True in deed and of such onelie is the supposition made in the case aforesaid But the Churches of Galatia generally were not such but held the saving faith sound This also is most true they being set in the way and order of Christ And therefore although there sprang vp some heretikes and schismatikes among them which is the †1 Cor. 11.19 Act. 20.30 lot and triall of the Church of God in all ages yet was there not cause to break Communion with those Assemblies but
Devills Doth your Church hold them as things indifferent Or will not this prove a blasphemous opinion even in your owne judgement 4. Mynd withall how the Dispensations given by your Prelates for eating of flesh in tymes forbidden runne stil among you as they did and do among the Papists with this clause fana conscientia that is with a safe conscience and your Excommunications with this clause Ad salutem anioâ—e that is for the salvation of the soule Doth not this shew that your Churches hold not these things as you pretend but agree with the Papists therein Or hold you matters of conscience and salvation for things indifferent 5. Likewise for your Ministery and book of common prayer c. hold you them as matters indifferent or as necessarie for the service of God and salvation of your soules 6. And what say you to the blasphemy magik errors lyes in the Apocrypha books retained among you for the service of God Count you them also for indifferent things 6. Finally towching the Popish opinion of works whereof you speak know you not how they hold that their works merit not for the work sake but for Christs being dyed with his blood Yet notwithstanding this colour the point being well considered it doth highly dishonour Christ and derogate from his office of sole Mediation In like maner the Hierarchy c. that is the governement worship confusion and Ministery of Antichrist retained among you whatsoever you pretend for them yet being duly weighed do as towching your Church constitutioÌ„ abolish the governement and MediatioÌ„ of Christ except you could prove him to be Mediatour of another Testament then his owne Behold what your Indifferent opinioÌ„ will prove when it comes to be throughly scanned As you like it you may hold it still To end this point let the Reader note and not forget it how your self do here in playne termes confesse that your Hierarchy that is your Churches governement Ministery c. was never but nought This suites yll with the title of your book and gives small encouragement for any to serve God by such Ministery worship c. For Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Pag. 40.41 I have cleared them before froÌ„ your hasty censure Now onely let the Reader observed how this is alway the foot of your song Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. As if their errors were better warrant for you then Gods word for vs. CHAP. 10. The fourth Reason against M. Iacobs AssumptioÌ„ aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THe doctrines of faith conteined in that Book alledged would not make him a true Christian who holding them should also still execute or joyne vnto the Ministery of Mahomet that open Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Therefore neither can they make him a true Christian that holding them yet doth still execute or joine vnto the Ministery and worship of the man of sinne the covert Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 4. Reason THis your 4. ReasoÌ„ is Mahomets Ministery and Antichrists Ministery are both bad alike But the good doctrines of our booke of Articles cannot save a man that ioineth also to Mahomets Ministery Ergo the good doctrines of that booke cannot save a man that ioineth also to Antichrists Ministery which thing we in England doe I deny neither the Proposition nor Assumption And yet the Argument is too bad It is a fallacie of Equivocation as we call it Wee must therefore distinguish Mahomets Ministerie and Antichrists Ministerie have a doubtfull meaning If you meane the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in Mahomets or Antichrists assemblies that is in the Turkish or Popish Churches Then I graunt your whole Argument is * Both are nought alike as touching abolâ—shing vs from Christ. true But that wee doe so in England which comes in the CoÌ„clusioÌ„ Or that any ChristiaÌ„ amongst vs thinketh so That I vtterly deny And thus indeed that Scripture alleadged 2 Cor. 6.14 is rightly vnderstood But if you meane by Ministerie the outward manner of calling to the Ministerie and some outward ceremonies vsed by Mahomet or the Pope Then I flatly and absolutly deny your Assumption and your Scripture is answered before in the First Reason For I affirme and it is manifest That such errors being ioined with the good doctrines of that our Book doe not destroy faith and true Christianitie as before was shewed in the Second Exception Fr. Iohnson his Answer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 4. Reason Here Mr Iacob the light of the trueth doeth so dazell your eyes as you freely confesse you cannot deny any whit of the Reason And yet forsooth the Argument is too bad But why so There is you say an Equivocation in it and therefore you will distinguish I answer There is no equivocation at all in the words they are all plaine to him that hath a single eye and will vnderstand the trueth Therefore your distinction here is idle and frivolous Yet let vs see between what things you do distinguish It is between the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies and between the outward maner of calling to their Ministery and the outward ceremonies vsed amongest them An absurd distinction towching the matter in hand For first who knoweth not that these latter are of the very same nature with the former Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Antichristian and accursed before God aswell as the rest of their woship and service Or hath God in his worde giuen any commaundement more for these then for the other Secondly who seeth not that the Argument here is not of whatsoever thing vsed among the Turkes and Papists but of the Ministerie and worship which they have devised and executed As in particular of the publique offices of Ministery reteined among them of their maner of calling and entrance into them of their administration of them of their stinted imposed Liturgie their ecclesiasticall governement Canons proceedings c. All which in the Church of England are taken out of * Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3.4.7.8.9.10.11.12 that golden cup of abominations wherewith Antichrist that man of sinne hath made the Nations of the earth to be drunken As may appeare by comparing their Pontificals Canons and constitutions togeather If you will needes be otherwise minded then prove the particulars aforesaide by the Testament of Christ And marke here that you graunt the doctrine of faith conteined in your booke of Articles cannot make him a true Christian who holding them doth withall receive and ioyne vnto the publike worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies This you say you graunt as most true WherevpoÌ„ it followeth even by your owne confession 1. That such things may be ioined with the doctrines of faith receiued among you as in such estate you cannot be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither the truths which you
those things yet you are notwithstanding to be judged in this constitution true Christians and true Churches which hitherto you have not done neither ever will If you meane it not of them then you keep not the point and besides you must prove the contrary to that I have said Which you never go about For the note I gave you graunt it is most true that such things may be joined with the doctrines of faith received among you as will vtterly destroy it or to keep the words of my aunswer which you love not to do that in such estate you can not be deemed true Christians or true Churches neither the truths which you hold be avayleable vnto you Thus all the defence you bring of your Church proves to be quite nothing in the end For hereby is evident as heretofore I noted that your Proposition is not generall that both it and the Assumption are lame and vnperfect and so your whole Argument faulty and nothing els but meer Sophistry Your vnchristiā and false charge rests vpō your owne head as is proved already in the handling of your Proposition For which see Pag. 11. 12. 13. Lastly your reference is nothing els but a refuge whither still you fly to hide your self when you can no longer stand in defence of your Church What you aunswered to the first Reason is there taken away Now to shut vp all you sing againe the Cuckoes note your old vnder song Mr Crāmer Ridley c. Towching whom I have shewed before Pag 40. 41. how they may he counted true Christiās and yet your estate be Antichristiā nevertheles Chap. 11. The Fift Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson AS the golden vessels taken out of the Lords house had and vsed in Babylō of the Caldeās did not therefore make the Babyloniās true Iewes touching the faith Nor their bankets wherein they vsed them to be any of the Lords Feasts spoken of Leu. 23. but they still remained Babylonish people and banquets notwithstanding So the truths of the Gospel vessels as it were of the Lords house holden and received in the spiritual Babilō whereof that other was a type do not make the people so stāding to be true Christiās Neither their Ministery and cōstitution to be Christs But they still remaine the people Ministery cōstitution of Babylon notwithstāding See the proofs hereof in Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 compared with Prov. 9.17.18 Rev. 17.4.5 18.4 with 14.8.9.10.11 H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 5. Reason YOur Reason is this The materiall vessells of Ierurusalem were of the like power and vertue to sanctifie the Heathen Babilonians As the holy christian doctrines in that Booke are to sanctifie vs that holde togeather with them some Popish ceremonies and orders as indifferent things But those vessels were not sufficient to sanctifie those Babilonians Ergo Neither these truths of the Gospell can sanctifie vs. An absurd comparison The Proposition is most false and so the scriptures quoted Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 compared vvith Pro. 9.17.18 Revel 17.4.5 18.4 vvith 14.8.9.10.11 are as idely and vainely applyed See the Ansvver to the allegations in the First Reason before FR. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 5. Reason MY Reason is a comparison between the Caldean and the Romish Babylon also between the vessels of the Lords house and the true doctrines of the Gospell Now this you say first is an absurd comparison So belike if your grave judgement might goe for good payment the manifold allusions which in describing the spirituall Babylon the Spirit of God ♣ maketh to the materiall Babylon of the Caldeans are to bee accompted absurd allusions and comparisons As also the often alluding and likening togeather the * holy things of the Law with the holy thinges of the Gospell and the †transgressions then with the transgressions now which are so often vsed in the Scripture are in your account absurd allusions similitudes ♣ Rev. 17. 18. 19. chap. compared with Ierem. 50. 51. chap. Esay 13. 14. 21. 47. chap. * Esay 66.20.21 Zach. 14.20.21 1 Cor. 5.7.8 10.2.3.4 Col. 2.11.12 Heb. 13.15.16 1 Pet. 3.20.21 Rev. 15.3 21.10 c. †2 Tim. 3.8.9 1 Cor. 10.6 c. Heb. 12.16.17 Iude vers 11. Rev. 2.14.20 20.8.9 Secondly you say the Proposition is most false But in deed it is most true and most plainely taught in the fift of Daniel Vers 1.2.3.4 Lev. 23. chap. As was alleadged before when I first propounded the reason wherevnto yet you have given no aunswer So soundly you defend your cause Thirdly you say These scriptures Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 vvith Pro. 9.17.18 Revel 17.4.5 18.4 14.8.9.10.11 are idely and vainely applyed But how do you shew this Verie profoundly sure You bid vs see the aunsvver to the allegations in the First Reason And this is all the proof you bring Well wee have seen your aunswer to the allegations there and find First that the Scriptures here alleadged are not so much as once mentioned there Secondly that your aunswer to those which are there is most frivoulous and of no weight but against your self as there is declared Pag. 67. 68. Lastlie in your propounding the Reason here otherwise then I did myself which is a thing very common but nothing commendable in you it seemeth that being not able to aunswer any part thereof as I had set it downe yet you thought to helpe your self by this exception that the materiall vessells of Ierusalem vvere not of like povver and vertue to sanctifie the Heathen Babylonians as the true doctrines received among the Spirituall Babylonians are to sanctifie them But you shall finde if you will consider and compare togeather the Scriptures here alledged that the golden vessels being holy to the Lord and taken out of his Temple did asmuch sanctifie the Caldean Babylonians and their Feastes As the holy doctrines vessels as it were of the Lords Temple had amōg the spirituall Babylonians doe sanctifie them and their constitution That is neither of their estates and Assemblies are sanctified thereby at all For saith not the Lord That the setting of mens postes and thresholds how much more of Babylons enormities by his Postes and Thresholds that is by his truths and ordinances is so far from sanctifying as it defyleth his holy name yea is abomination in his sight and setteth a vvall between him and them that doe it Ezech. 43.8 And saith not the Scripture againe that the true doctrines in the false Church are among them as stollen vvaters and hid bread which though they be svveet and pleasant yet there also the mouth is filled with gravell and the guestes of those feasts and Assemblies are so far from being sanctifyed by those truthes in that estate as they are before God even dead men and in the deapth of hell Prov. 9.17.18 20.17 To conclude this poinct hath not an Angell from heaven proclaimed with a loude voice that
‡ Rev. 18.1.2.3.4.11 c 17.1.2.3.4.5 14.8.9.10.11 the spirituall Babylon notwithstanding any truthes she holdeth yet is so vnsanctifyed and abominable as shee is become a cage of all vncleane and hatefull birdes and that all her children Marchants that will not depart out of her shall receive of her plagues and damnation and drink of the vvine of Gods vvrath and be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angells and before the Lamb for evermore Loe here your fearfull estate which you notwithstanding will needes accompt holy and acceptable before God H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 5. Reason IN this your defence of your Fifth Reason you mislike that I call it an absurd comparison Where you affirme that the golden vessels of the Iewes were as available to sanctify the Babilonians as the truthes of the Gospell which wee hold are to sanctify vs. In deed your ovvne vvordes be holden and received in the spirituall Babylon By which termes you meane vs of England I trow But marke sir Is not this grosse Sophistry againe Is not this childish vanity open beggerie and craving of that which is the whole question that is That our Churches are spirituall Babylon and as deepely infected in Babylonish impietie as those old Caldeans If they were so infected I graunt in deed your Reason would follow But seeing it is the question and seing we professe our selves true Christians by those truths of the Gospell which wee hold and as by Gods grace wee are in deed Say I not well that this is an absurd Comparison Yes Maister Iohnson it is a most †To match those outvard vessells of no sanctity of themselves with our inward doctrines of salvation impious absurd and senceles comparison and void of common Reason And it inwrappeth wrappeth Maister Cranmer Maister Ridley c. within the same iniurious you irreligious consequence likewise All that you have of allusions and alluding betweene the Typicall and spirituall Babylon are meere delusions and vaine cavils Prove vs first to be spirituall Babylon Or els you fight with your shadow So that still I say those Scriptures quoted of Dan. 5. c. As also all the rest here packed togeather they are miserably and desperately abused according as I rightly referred you to my censure to your First Reason which for all your wordes you have not refuted The very same I say of your other two scriptures towards the end Prov 9.17 c. Rev. 18.1 c. As for Ezech. 43.8 I answered it before †Pag. 71. in your First Reason Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 5. Reason HAve you said any thing here first Mr Iacob but denyed the Conclusion If you have shew it If not confesse your owne childish vanity and open beggery c. For which the name of Sophistry is to good though otherwise it be bad ynough and the cognisance of all your Replies Now that this you say is but the denyal of the Conclusion thus I shew That which I conclude towching your Churches is this that they are not constitute according to the ordināce of Christ but according to the apostasy of Antichrist that is that your Churches in their estate are spirituall Babylon This I say is that which I have concluded heretofore and still do throughout my Reasons Exceptions Aunswers and now of purpose have I set it downe at the beginning of this treatise Pag. 3. Your denying of this then what is it els but the denyall of the Conclusion But this now being proved you are driven nill ye will ye plainely to graunt that in deed my Reason will follow Well Mr Iacob though it were long first yet thus you yeeld now at length Better late thrive then never Abide but by this and I trow you will not now any longer stand member or Minister of your Assemblies in that estate neyther condemne vs any more for separating from them Next howsoever it were for the question between vs yet the Proposition of the Comparison cannot but be true which in your first Reply you said was most false and now you would passe by because you can say nothing against it Yet mynd Mr Iacob that in denying it you did there agayne give the lye to the holy Ghost whose doctrine it is in these Scriptures Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 Levit. 23. chap. Prov. 9.17.18 By all this then you may see it is your owne dealing that is most impious absurd sencelesse c. thus to strive as you have done against so cleare a truth and everie where in your Replyes to fight against God and his word Which even here againe you cease not to do whiles you call such allusions and comparisons as the Scripture vseth between the typicall and spirituall Babylon meer delusions and vayne cavils How I matched together on the one hand the vessells of the Lords Temple and the truthes of the Gospell on the other The Caldean and spirituall Babylon may be seen in my former aunswer Which may suffice for any thing you say here both your marginall note and all the rest I could tell you further if it needed that Babel in English is confusion And that such is the estate of your Church even a confusion of all sorts of people good and bad Besides that your tounges are divided and your language confounded as it was in * Gen. 11.9 Babel of old whiles the Prelates the Reformists your self and the like as Neuters between both speak some one thing some another towching your Hierarchy worship Canons c. some †The Prel Formal that they are of God and to be kept and obeyed for conscience sake some ‡ The Sekers of Reform that they are of Antichrist and to be removed and witnessed against vnto death though every haire of the head were a life some ♣ Mr Iacob the like that they are neyther of God neyther of Antichrist simply fundamentally indifferently c. And thus as men confounded in your selves by the just judgement of God your toungues are divided you know not your selves what to make and account of these things or one of another I could also put you in mind that as the Caldean Babylon was so the spirituall Babylon is notorious for false worship towards God and for persecution of his people keping them in thraldome and captivity See M. Iacob◠Repl. before And that now the estate of your Church is such viz worshipping God after a false maner never prescribed by himself kept in subiection to your Antichristian Prelats and persecuting the people of God by prisonment exile death c. it is so evident as when you are called vpon to shew warrāt for these among you your vsuall aunswer is no other but after this sort * Pag. 37. Let the State which mainteyneth these things aunswer for them †Pag. 70. For my part I never thought other but our Church corruptions are against the Secōd
God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides The Proposition none will deny The Assumption is proved thus The people and Assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the covenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteine But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assēblies of England as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word Therefore the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblies of England is such as vnto them in that estate the Couenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteyne The Proposition was proved by the example of the Samaritans and by Christs speach concerning them in such estate Ioh. 4. 2 King 17. wherevnto you answer nothing to any purpose save that what you say is against your self For where you graunt That the Samaritans and Balaam knew and beleeved the Messias should come yea and that the Divels know beleev there is a God and that Iesus is the Christ the holy one of God Who seeth not that most excellent truthes may be acknowledged and yet they which so professe be not therfore in their estate true Christians or true Churches to whom the Couenauntes holy things and service of God do apperteine And where next you say The Samaritans beleeved not in the Messias it will be heard for you to proove it seeing you take beleefe in Christ so as it is had in the spirituall Babylon and her daguhters and seeing also the Samaritans professed and beleeved not onely that the Messias should come but even he which is called Christ and that when he came he would declare vnto them all things In so much as when Iesus was come and had spoken but to a woman of Samaria the Scripture witnesseth that many of the Samaritans of that city beleved in him for the saying of the woman which testifyed he hath tolde me all things that ever I did Iohn 4.25.26.29.30.39 Thirdly where you say The Samaritans ioined Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell whih wholy destroyed the trueth in them By this againe it is evident even in your owne confession both that such things may be ioyned with the doctrines of trueth as in that estate they which professe those truthes can not be iudged true Christians or true Churches to whom the promises and holy things of God do belong and that therefore also the Proposition of your principall and maine Argument is not generall but of necessitie admitteth limitation So then your maine defence falleth to the ground Of which see further Pag. 5. c. Moreover in that you say The Samaritans ioyned Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell 2 King 17. If you meane that they worshipped the Idols themselves ◠King 17. sacrifycing to them and accompting them to be Gods as well as the God of Israell and so brake the First cōmaundemēt as before you affirmed in your answer to the First Reason then I take it that here againe you are deceived The scripture sayeth they worshipped and sacrifized to the Lord God of Israell So as their sinne was against the Second commaundement in that worshipping the true God See before Pag. 67. 68. they did it in and by those Images as also by other devices of their owne and traditions of their predecessours That this was their case besides that it appeareth in the chapter alledged it is most plainly testifyed 1. First by themselves in the book of Ezra where they speak to the Iewes of the captivitie that builded the Temple saying * Ezra 4.1.2 We will build with you for vve seek the Lord your God as ye do and we have sacrifyced vnto him since the tyme of Esar Haddon King of Ashur which brought vs vp hither 2. Secondly by the speach that was between Christ and the woman of Samaria Ioh. 4. where it is manifest the “ Ioh. 4.20.21 22.23.24.25.29.30 contention between the Iewes and the Samaritans was not whether onely the true God vvas to be vvorshipped but both of them agreeing in that vvhether the solemne place of his vvorship vvas in Ierusalem or in the mount of Samaria c. 3. Lastly by your owne confession when ‡ Pag. 105. you say the Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethel served not Pagan Idols but the true God after their ovvne devices For the Samaritans as the †2 King 17.28.32.33 Scripture testifyeth worshipped the same God and after the same maner that the Nations did vvhich vvere caried from thence Now the nations thence carried were the tenne Tribes of Israel that fel away from Iudah to Ieroboam Who likewise ♣ 1 King 12.27.28.29.30.31 with 2 King 17.32.33.40.41 feared the Lord and served their Images that is God in and by their Images As now also the Samaritans did that were come in their stead Hitherto of your answer which seemeth to concerne the Proposition of the latter Syllogisme The Assumption was shewed by this that your Assemblies being commingled togeather of all sortes of people you have also for your vvorship of God a counterfeit Ministery and service devised by man This you do rightly vnderstand as we meane it of your Hierarchie and other abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. Which deceiptfully here againe you would smother vp vnder the name of ceremonies Touching which sleight of yours sufficient is said before in the handling of the First Reason But what say you now cōcerning the Assumption or proof of it Do you deny it Not so What then do you say for your counterfet Hierarchie vvorship c. Not a word but this That your assemblies in England have not their consciences conuicted in these as the people vnder Ieroboam could not but have their consciences convicted then touching their vvorship and Priesthood But first if this were so is it any just defence of your Ministery vvorship or estate that yet you see them not to to be vnlawfull as it could not be but they vnder Ieroboam saw theirs to be If this were a sufficient reason might not the grossest Papists plead likewise for their Ministery worship and estate as also the Vsurers extortioners and persecutors for themselves and their wickednes And by this reason God should not have sent Lyons among the Samaritans 2 King 17.26 because yet they knew not the maner of worshipping the God of Israell neither had their consciences convicted therein But Christ hath taught vs otherwise †Luk 12.48 that even that servant vvhich knovveth not his Maisters vvill and yet committeth things vvorthy of stripes shal be beaten though vvith fevver stripes then he that knovveth and doeth it not And of those Israelites aforesaid the Lord himself testifieth “ Hos 4.6 that they vvere destroyed for lack of
and therefore the Argument strong and of force Thirdlie the particulars before mentioned being found in your Church of England will testifie it also to be verified of you Lastly although many of the abominations of the “ vvhores cup of Babylon be now cast out of England for which we prayse God yet so long as you reteine the Hierarchy Leiturgie confusion of people Canons Rev. 17.1.2.3.4.5 Excommunications c. derived vnto you from that mother of vvhoredomes and abominations of the earth we must needs beleeve and alleadge against you the Scripture and common proverbe which saith As is the mother so is the daughter Ezech. 16.44 For a conclusion let it heer be observed how to defend your estate you are glad to runne into the Papists Tentes and to take vp their worne and rustie weapons which have ben of no force to defend themselves but have often and justly ben turned into their owne bowels Rhemes Annot vpon 1 Tim. 4.3 Read the †Rhemes Annotations vpon this place and see if heer you would not avoyd the evidence of this Scripture against you by the verie same shift and answer as the wretched Iesuites there would turne it from their mother of Rome that is by posting it over from themselves to Martion and Tatianus Read it and note it well H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 7. Reason TO this your defence of your Seuenth Reason I say Though euery where you are very vnreasonable yet no where you seeme more vnconscionable and wilfull then here A strange vntrueth First doe I say No to the Apostles Yea 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 That they who forbid Mariage and Meates doe fall from the faith Doe I say noe Is this your conscience Say I not expresly They doe in these points departe from the faith but not Absolutly and wholy Secondly doeth it follow by my words as you affirme That none departe from the faith but those that departe totally wholy and absolutely whereby all the vildest Heretikes should be iustified as Arrians Nestorians Anabaptists c. Doe I say so Is this also your conscience Againe doe I say The text doth not reproue all the Papists in their forbidding of Mariage and Meates but only Martion and Tatianus of old Doe I say any such thing Nay say I not expreslie the contrarie Are you then a man of conscience Doe you suffer for conscience Know therefore that this I say and my wordes before doe import so much That whosoever doe forbid mariage or meates doe depart from the faith But note some doe more some lesse There are some that doe simply and fundamentally and others in some sorte Men departe from the faith Simply and Fundamentally two wayes First they which doe erre in such maine poincts as doe vtterly abolish vs from Christ and destroy the Foūdation thus doe Arrians Manichees Seruetus Papistes c. Secondly such as holding the Foundation in doctrine sound doe desperatly professe and teach some what els against the manifest light that is in them so Martion and Tatianus doe Fundamentally and simply fall from the faith because they simply forbid those good ordinances of God Marriage and Meates euen against the light of conscience nature togeather wherewith a liuely saving faith cannot possibly stand Now the Papists in this do departe from the faith also but that is only in some sorte or in parte because they forbid these things not absolutly but vnto some sometimes They that depart thus from the faith may bee true Christians notwithstanding yea they are certenly if they be no worse in any thing els albeit you deny it here most fondly without all sence To which end you most vnlernedly and vngodly apply those scriptures A litle leauen leueneth the lump A few dead flyes make the oyntment to stinke Scriptures abused and a litle poyson bringeth death Will you haue no tainte of euil in a Christian but it quencheth the life of God in vs needes Is it not possible your selves might hold some such errors yet remayne true Christians notwithstanding Then if Papists vvere no vvorse but in those errors only they might be true Christians notwithstanding But Martion and Tatianus doe wholy departe from the faith not but that they beleued some truthes but in that they †The same did Corah Dathan and Abiram likewise See before in āswer to the 2. Exception the 2. Reply presumptuously quenched the instinct of nature conscience as I haue said Here then it appeareth how wicked a sclaunder it is that you say I runne into the Papistes tents and fight with their weapons doe iump with the Remists annotations on 1 Tim. 4.1 2 3. Iudge now by this that I haue said whether I doe or no. And note that I save that they be either Apostates or departers from the faith not onely who fall totally as you sclaunder me that I saye but also who fall fundameneally that is eyther the first way or second as I haue afore saide And so doe these grosse Heretikes whom you mention 1 Arius Servetus Papists c. 2. Martion Tatianus Iudas Corah Balaam the Apostate Israelites c. Thus then your questions and demaundes about the Papists their errors I passe by as more vaine then pertinent Onelie note vvithall if this reason of yours vvere good it maketh Mr Cranmer Ridley c. to be departers from the faith and no true Christians Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 7. Reason LEt others iudge Mr Iacob whether in your self this be not in deed found true and vndenyable which you do vainelie charge me withall Though every vvhere you are very vnreasonable yet no vvhere more vnconscionable and vvilfull then here You have contradicted the Apostle and yet have neither conscience nor will to acknowledge it no not when it is told you I proved my Assumption by the Apostles Yea 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Your denyall thereof then must needs be as much as to say No to his Yea. Neither is there anie help for it in your vaine additions of totally simply fundamentally absolutely c. They are rather so many witnesses against your self as anie men of vnderstanding may and will discerne Pag. 136. c But for this see further in my former aunswer Against which you cannot say a word but in stead of replying fall to plaine railing For the conclusions I gathered from your words about Departers from the faith the Papists and other Hereticks let the iudgement be the Readers whether they follow not necessarilie vpon your erroneous and most absurd assertions and distinctions Yea see both for them and for your contradiction of the Apostle if even here where you seek to colour and avoide them you fall not into them againe Here you would haue me know that this you say That whosoever do forbid mariage and meats do depart from the faith Well I heare you say so But a while after I heare you say this too Pag.
19.9 Compare now your case with theirs and aunswer for your selves Are not you hardened against the truth Let your writings against it your imprisonning banishing and killing for it give evidence Do you not also disobey it Let your constitution and practise be witnesse And do you not speake evill of the way of God before the multitude Let the Sermons of your Ministers beare record your books also and yll speaches of your Prelates Iudges people c. Therefore by that Scripture you are to be separated from Wherevnto may be added in this case that which Peter saith Act. 2. Save your selves from this froward generation Thirdly where you obiect That Paule did not separate from all the other Iewes as he did from these Act. 19. and shew it by Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 I answer that the Apostles had good and iust cause so to do For first the Iewes were the people of God separated from the world and set in the true way and order of God Rom. 9.4 Levit. 20.22.24.26 Luk. 16.8 c. Secondlie Christ commaunded the Apostles when he sent them to preach his Gospell throughout the world that they should first preach it to the Iewes Luke 24.47 Act. 1.8 13.46 Thirdlie the Iewes ministery and ceremonies being the ordinances of God him self and given in writing by Moses the man of God were therefore now when they should cease to be buried with honor Act. 15.21 and 21.30.21.22.23.24.25 Heb. 8.5.13 and 9.1 c. These things considered we see the Apostles had iust cause so to do as they did in those places meÌ„tioned But what is this to the assemblies of England which never yet were separated from the world nor set in the way and order of Christ but stand in the “ Rev. 13.16.17 18.2 2 The. 2.3.4.8 confusion and defection of Antichrist whose Ministery and worship were never the ordinances of God but taken out of * Rev. 17.2.4 18.3 9.3 c. the whores cup of Babylon for which God never gave Commaundement to go vnto them but to depart from them as being daughters of the great Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 18.4 with 17.5 Adde herevnto that even from those Iewes notwithstanding the reasons aforesaid when they put from themselues the truth and would not receive it the Apostles departed and separated themselves yea and shook of the dust of their feet against them teaching others to do so likewise Act. 13.46.51 and 18.6 and 28.25.26.27 28. and 19.8.9 To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c. is answered before And hitherto of your generall Assumption which was this That the whole doctrine as it is professed and publiquely practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Which by the Exceptions and Reasons aforesaid is proved to be vntrue Touching the CoÌ„clusion Now let the godly Reader trying all things by the word of truth iudge whether we or you hold Paradoxes In that which you speak of the reformed Churches you are deceived if you think they allow your present estate and Church constitutioÌ„ Both their publique profession and practise witnesse the contrarie In the answer to Mr T.C. Mr A.H. c. as is declared at large in ‡ other treatises which yet remaine vnanswered Where you say we our selves heretofore have acknowledged and professed it viz your generall Assumption to be true you are againe deceived We have alway testified the contrarie both by our profession and practise and were and are therefore cast into prison appointed to exile and to death besides many other iniuries and grieuances inflicted vpon vs for this verie cause We have in deed acknowledged and do acknowledge that you professe divers excellent truths but that the whole doctrine as it is publiquely professed practized by law in England doth make you in that estate true Christians never any of vs that I know of did once acknowledge Therefore till you shew the contrarie I must needs think you do falselie burthen vs all and speciallie such of vs as you have mentioned here in particular To that of the Martyrs in Queene Maries dayes is answered already Yet for more evidence of the truth I will annexe some particular speaches and testimonies of the Martyrs themselves both then and in former tymes Maister Bradford speaking of the dayes before Queen Marie said ‡ Act. monum In the conference vvith Archb. Heath The tyme was when the Pope was out of England but not all popery And moreover * In his first speach vvith D. Harpsfild That the scripture knoweth not any difference between Bishops and Ministers which men call Priests And that the Scripture speaking of Bishops cannot be vnderstood of Bishops that minister not but lord it Maister Hooper held Hooper on the eight coÌ„mandment That a Bishop should be Bishop but of one Citie and that till the Magistrates bring them to this poinct it shal be as possible to heare a Bishop wade godly and simply through the Scripture in case of Religion as to drive a camell through the eye of a needle And againe he saith The primitiue Church had not such Bishops as be now a dayes And againe What blindnesse saith he is there befell in the world that cannot see this palpable yll that our mother the holy Church had at the beginning such Bishops as did preach many godly Sermons in lesse tyme then our Bishops horses bee a brideling Iohn Bale an exile for the testimonie of Iesu writing vpon the Revelation affirmeth The Image of both churches vpon Rev. 13.1 17.3 That the names of Blasphemy written vpon the Beasts head Rev. 13. and 17. are none other then the proud glittering tytles wherewith they garnish their vsurped authority to make it seeme glorious to the world having within them conteined the great mystery of iniquitie What â—her els saith he is Pope Cardinal MetropolitaÌ„ Primate Archbishop Diocesan Archdeacon Officiall Chauncelour Commissarie Deane Prebend Parson Vicar and such like but very names of blasphemy For offices they are not appoincted by the holy Ghost nor yet once meÌ„tioned in the scriptures This Iohn Bale held and published Then which what can be more full and evident against you And writing vpon the 14. of the Revelation he hath these words To receive the beastes marke in their forheads and hands Ibid. vpon Rev. 14.9 is both to agree to such decrees traditions lawes constitutions actes and proclamations as they vnder those titles have made onely for their owne covetousnes and pompe and neither for the glory of God nor yet for the right maintenance of the Christian common wealth And also to be sworne to the same to subscribe to it to give counsel or ayde to it to mainteine it by learning to minister in it to execute vnder it to accuse punish and put to death for it or to thinke it lawfull and godly with such like
First I alledged all the reformed Churches For who knoweth not but they all hold CoÌ„munioÌ„ with vs as Churches of God yet you dare either deny this or vtterly peruert it You tell vs of your Answers to Maister Cartwright Mr. Hildersam that are vnanswered If they be like to this your answer here verely they doe wisest in yeelding silence to such friuolous wandring wordes Secondly I alleadged your selues to haue acknoledged heretofore That our publique doctrine allowed would did make many of vs true Christians You too shamefully deny it And say you are for witnessing against it imprisoned banished c. Whereto I answer that if for these things you are troubled I know none can pittie you And because you say none of you euer acknowledged it I will therefore repeat your owne words Mr. BARROW in his last answer in writing to Mr Gifford intituled A fevv obseruations to the reader of Mr. Giff. last Reply Sect. 4. saith thus The next calumniations whereby Mr Gifford indeuoreth to bring vs into hatred with the whole Lande is That we condemne all the persons both men and women of England which are not of our minde and pluck them vp as tares wherein me thinkes he doeth vs open wrong if not against his owne conscience yet against our expresse writngs every where c. Have we not commended the faith of the English Martyr and 〈◊〉 thousand notwithstanding the false offices and gâ—â—â—â— corruptions in the worship they exercised not doubting but the mercy of God through their syncere â—aith to Iesus Christ extended and super abounded above all their sinnes seene and vnseene And what now should let that we should not have the same hope where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicity is found So that they neither neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. Aftervvard in the same Section The faithfull servants of Christ denying the whole constitution and government of this Church of England may iustly deny the people whilest they remaine in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church yet hereby not condemne them with any such peremptory sentence as Maister Gifford suggesteth Nota from Christ to cut them of from Gods election or from Christ Mr PENRIE in his confession of faith published in writing a litle before his death saith thus The trueth of doctrine touching the holy Trinitie touching the Natures and Offices of Christe Iustifying faith Sacramentes Eternall life and the rest established by her Maiesties Lawes and professed by her selfe their Honors and such as haue knowledge in the Assemblies of this land I acknowledge from my heart to be such as if I mainteined not the vnitie and held not the communion of the same doctrine with them in these poincts I could not possibly be saved For out of the communion of the true profession which her Maiestie hath established in these and the like truthes there is no hope of saluation lâ—ft But ioyne notwithstonding with the publique worship in the assemblies of this Land I dare not for the former causes I doe moreouer willingly confesse That many both of the Teachers also of the Professors within these Parish assemblees haue so embraced this truth of doctrine established and professed in this Land as the Lord of his infinite goodnes hath graunted them the fauour to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lordes election I professe before men and Angels that I iudge them to be meÌ„bers of that body whereof the sonne of God Christ Iesus is the head Onely herein the Lord be mercifull vnto them as to my self in regard of my sinnes That they are not vnder that outward forme of gouernement that Christ hath left c. And in his examination before Master Fanshaw lately published by your selves in print he confesseth the Churches of England to be the true Churches of Christ And what say you Maister Iohnson Have you not affirmed this thing your self to me and to Maister Philips namely towching your owne selfe when you were of vs That then you doubted not but you were a true regenerate Christian By vertue of what doctrine By extraordinarie reuelation Nay but by our publique doctrine of our Church when you stoode and continued a publique Minister of the same If you beleued so of your selfe and that truely vvhat letteth but you may beleeue the like of many Thousands novve Further vvhere you say my applying of the Martyrs is answered before Let the Reader iudge You shevv here that some of them misliked the Hyerarchie But it maketh stronger against you seeing for all that they themselves refused not to communicate and partake vvith them as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. After vvhere you say though the reformed Churches your selves and the Martyrs had thought otherwise then you now do yet all this is no so und proof against you Yes in deed that novv you hold a Paradoxe those vvitnesses are sufficient for that vvhere vnto may be added the vvhole Churches iudgment and practize vvith all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300. or 1400. yeares Chrysostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom. Austen Ambrose c. They all have thought that vnder the Prelacie and humane ceremonies men may be true Christians Then these witnesses are sufficient that your denyall hereof is a strange vnusuall opinion that is a Paradox Finally to trie vs you propound a many of questions But I leave all this superfluous stuffe to your self to be pondered First let vs cleare this present question and your Reasons hereabout Till then we have no leasure to medle further The Lord of his mercy open your eyes to see your extremitie whereby you do greatly hinder not helpe the truth Not a Firâ—â—â— for victorie but a lover of truth which you would seem to suffer for That you may indeed shew your self as becometh a Christian Pastor not impossible to erre but no lover of error * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not regarding your owne but the prayse of Christ in all things AMEN Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 9. Reason AS if your bare word were proof ynough still you say but never prove that this Reason is a fallacy Yea and all the Reasons before in your schoole-learning are likewise But the best is you are not the greatest Clerk the schooles have knowen Every of the Reasons is proved before to be true direct sound and strong against you And in all your Replyes against them what els have you done but played the Sophister and that notablie Apply therefore to your self what you speake here And of all these things now let the Reader iudge It seemeth verie absurd vnto you that I say you do here graunt vs the cause But what if the absurditie be found in your self Marke then first your owne words before Pag. 156. ‡ We graunt say you so far forth as we hold otherwise then truth so
constitution of your Church aswell as the other if not also more They are publiklie authorised among you aswell as the other whether you respect the Prelates and Clergy in the Conuocation house or the whole body of the Land in the Parliament They are generallie receyved professed and practised of all the people in every Parish and Cathedrall Church throughout the Land aswell as the other Yea and more too your selves being witnesses One of your owne Prophets Mr Giff. Di. of the strife of the Church Pag. 100. writing of your estate saith There be thousands which be men and women growen that if a man aske them how they shall be saved they cannot tell Neither can your felf deny this to be true How do they then know and professe the faith of your book of Articles Or will you say they are as ignorant of your Service-book and of your Prelates other Articles Iniunctions Courts c. vnto which they ioyne and submit dayly Either therefore you must meddle with the false doctrines and other publik books of your Church aswell as with that book of Articles whereof you speak or els you meddle not at all with the question between vs neither defend your Churches estate The question between vs is Whether the truths you professe together with the false doctrines and abominations of Antichrist retained among you do make you true Churches and I true Christiās in that estate If you keep not to this point you may make as faire a plea for the Church of Rome and all other Hereticks whilest you meddle not with their errors and false doctrines but looke onely at the truths they professe Mynd but the Papists profession concerning Christ and his full and sufficient satisfaction for all our sinnes whereof I spake before Pag. 47. And consider now with your self how well and soundlie you have defended your Churches estate How your doctrine and constitution erreth fundamentally I have declared before Pag. 22. 114. 147. But now though you have no list to meddle with your Churches doctrine yet let vs see in your next Reply if your list will be to deale with your owne Your owne I say which I had from your self and take to be private to your self I had it from you in a Conference which passed “ between you and me April 3. 1597 in the presence of divers that can witnesse it Yet for more certainty and better remembrance I desired and obteined of you to write it downe your self So you gave it me then vnder your hand in writing which I have with me yet to shew Thus it is word for word A power borrowed from Antichrist to excommunicate may externally be committed vnto a people vsed by them who have power to excommunitate from Christ Henry Iacob When you had thus set it downe I desired your proof of it from the Scriptures But none could be had I could not obteine that at your hands Therevpon I tooke the paper and wrote vnderneath your assertion thus This is against the Scriptures 1 Cor. 5.4.5 compared with 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 Ezech. 43.8 Mat. 18.17.18.19.20 1 King 18.21 Fran Iohnson It is a good while Mr Iacob synce this passed between vs and like that you have had leysure ynough to consider of it all this tyme. Therefore in your next I hope you will have some list to meddle with this doctrine of your owne though you have none at all for your Churches Yet for the doctrines of your Church also because I am fallen into the mention of them againe let me put you in mynd of two things mo Mat. 13.24 c. The first is towching the parable of the tares spoken of before Pa. 158. of which because it is straungelie and daylie perverted among you for the maintenance of your confused and wicked estate therefore will I here in particular adde a word or two more besides that which I annexed before for the further explication of this point and conuiction of your error As first that you do consider with your selves if with this parable agree not also the Apostles doctrine where he calleth the Church the house of God and saith that in this house are not onelie vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and earth and that as some of them be for honor so some be also to dishonor from which therefore if anie purge himself he shal be a vessel vnto honor sanctifyed and meet for the Lord and prepared to every good work 1 Tim 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2.16.17.18.19.20.21 3.5 Next that howsoever the parable be vnderstood by anie whether of 1 the generall estate of the Church from the beginning of the world to the end thereof how Sathan alway hath his tares his wicked ones sometymes more open sometymes more secret even as God alway hath his righteous children and servants vntill the day of that finall and everlasting separacion Mat. 13.35.40 2 Or the particular estate of the Church in the tyme of Antichrists apostasy wrought by Sathan vntill the discovery and full abolition thereof 2 Thes 2 3.-14 3 Or the Churches continuall being and cōversing in the world with the children of the wicked Which they must needs do or els they must go out of the world as the Apostle affirmeth 1 Cor. 5.9.10 Howsoever I say the parable be vnderstood whether of these or any the like yet doth it no way make for the receiving or reteining of the knowen wicked whosoever they be in the body of the Church The scope of the parable by these interpretations also leading to no such thing but onelie to comfort and instruct the godlie how to carry themselves with patience and wisdome in such estate of things in the world And the Apostle whose doctrine doubtles is not contrarie to Christs teacheth expressely in that place to the Corinthians and the other mentioned before both that the Church is a distinct body separated from the world not partaking in their evill wayes and that if anie of the Church will not so walk but commit iniquity and repent not that then they be so far from being suffred to grow or remaine any longer in the Church as they be forthwith cast out of it and delivered vnto Sathan the Prince of the world and children of disobedience even the Enemy that soweth the tares here spoken of And thus also was the Apostles practise For both which that is both his doctrine and practise herein see these Scriptures 1 Cor. 5. chap. 2 Cor. 2 6-11 6 14.-17 Act. 19.9 Ro. 16.17 Ephes 2.1.2 Gal. 5.12 2 Thes 3.6.14 1 Tim. 1.20 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2 16-21 3.5 4.14.15 Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.38.39 To conclude then albeit that such having crept into the Church do both before and after their excommunication as do also the other of the world who never received the faith offend and trouble the Church and children of the kingdome yea and do often flourish also in outward
prosperitie in the world yet the godly notwithstanding must learne neither to fret at them nor to faint in themselues but alway to walk faithfullie in the truth and to waite patientlie on the Lord looking for the great harvest of the world At which tyme God will for ever free his people from them all both casting the wicked into a furnace of vnquenchable fyer and making the righteous to shine as the sunne in the kingdome of their Father Mat. 13 37-43 compared with ver 47-50 Rev. 2 20.-26 7 14-17 10.7 11 15-19 14 14-20 17-22 chap. and with the other Scriptures noted before Pag. 158. 159. 173. The second is that besides the false doctrines mentioned before Pag. 157. 158. 159. 160. your Church hath also manie mo Some whereof I have noted in * another Treatise A treatise of the Minist of Engl. pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. to which I refer you for them So as if your list and leysure will serve in your next Reply you may let vs have your defence of them also Or els provide Mr Iacob that you chaunge the Title of your book and call it not anie longer A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND MINISTERY OF ENGLAND Now to proceed there followeth next the comparison between you and the Iewes from whom Paul separated Act. 19.9 Act. 19. To which you can not replie a word to anie one thing I aunswered Onelie you bring some new exceptions but not anie of them all worth a rush You might aswell except that Paul was an Apostle and a Iew we not that the people he dealt withall were in Asia you in Europe they at Ephesus you at London c. Such pretences as they are verie common among you so are they most absurd and frivolous not worthy the hearing or anie refutation at all Onelie note that the very Papists themselves may likewise alledge against anie that witnes the truth vnto them yea and do they not dailie thus pretend as you do viz that they be infinitely many mo then Paul had there to do withall 2. That Paul was better able to convince them c. then any such are the whole Popish Church 3. That there be many learned among them which have many probable and seeming reasons c. Where you say there be some of you that have published some reasons for the Prelacy against vs and are vnanswered it is most false Name but one Reason if you can to which we have not given aunswer to the stopping of all your mouths But in deed Mr Iacob you and your fellowes have let the * the Prelates and their proctours insult over you Bancroft Bilson Sutcliff c. with book vpon book and yet aunswer not a word You that ere while cryed out so earnestlie against dumbe dogs are now become dumbe your selves not moving the tounge against anie that writeth for the Hierarchy and leitourgy of Antichrist retained among you But to leave this to your selves to be better mynded hereafter tell me now if it were anie thing to the purpose though that you say here were true By your owne confession the Reasons which are published against vs are but probable and seeming not true and vndoubted And this also seeming so but to you not to vs. What matter then though they were never aunswered by vs Where you aske What if these speak evill of that which we hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme We aske againe Do not the Papists also say so vnto you Yea and did not the Iewes think you say so vnto Paul Why then are you so partiall against vs But for vs it skils not what you or they think of our cause vnles you speak according to the Law and testimony of God which is far from you Let the Reader also note here the maner of your speach You say that which we hold for truth they hold to be errors schisme They say you as speaking of others not of your self You belike do not so hold it as they do but are perswaded it is truth and not error Why then do you not obey and practise it Why are you become our ennemy for bearing witnes vnto it Why are you so partiall against vs in it Towching the estate of the Iewes Church I shewed three reasons why the Apostles neither did nor might wholy separate from them at first Against which you are not able to open your mouth Pag. 161. Petitio principii whereof you speak is the summe of all your Replies Shew otherwise if you can Do you not everie where beg and no where prove that you are separated from the world set in the way of Christ free from the defection of Antichrist c. So your self are guiltie of that wherewith you charge me falslie all that you say being nothing els but to beg the question and deny the Conclusion As for your short writing about the cōparisō of your Ministery with Mariage I did answer it * above three yeares since But you have not yet replied againe neither I think will in hast In the yeare 1596. When you first acquainted me with the purpose of publishing these things you know besides other things then spoken of I did in particular desier you to publish that aunswer of myne with the rest Therefore you have done me the greater wrong both in leaving it vnprinted and much more in giving out that I have not aunswered you these whole three yeares together and vpward But I perceive you will have your book sutable one part with another and therefore you will end as you ‡ began that is Pag. 5. with lies and vntruths Of that which you annexe of the Iewes Church in Christs tyme and after and of separation from them and communion with them I have alreadie spoken sufficientlie Pag. 161. Neither can you with anie Reason denie or stand against anie thing I have there said as I noted before Tell vs yet I pray you when and how that full experience of obstinate and malitious resistance of the truth whereof you speak may be had and discerned in anie either Ministers or people For your selves you cannot deny but this is your case that you resist and refuse the truth many times and sundrie wayes witnessed vnto you that you rayle and speake evill both of it and of vs that professe it that you persist in the errors and defection of Antichrist that you bereave vs of our lives libertie goods countrie c. And all these because we will not runne with you to the same excesse of impietie Now seing this is the case as your self I think will not denie of your Prelates and manie other of your Priests and people and seing all the rest of you stand with them in one bodie and estate of a Church cleaving vnto them in the same way worship Ministerie c. therefore even in this behalfe can we not possiblie separate from some of you but we must needs
where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicitie is found So as they neyther neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. We also aske and say the same But now if you say this is your case both we and your owne works deny it For proof whereof see the differences between you and the Martyrs before specifyed Pag. 40. 41. At Thomas a Waterings by London 1593. May 29 Mr Penry whom you ♣ martyred also the same yeare his speach followeth In which likewise note fower things not one of them for you as towching the question in hand 1. The true doctrines established by Law and professed by her Maiesty their Honours and such as have knowledge in your assemblies he acknowledgeth to be such as if he did not mainteyne and hold them likewise he could not possibly be saved We also are like mynded And to put you out of all doubt we tell you further that if we did not hold and mainteine the true doctrines professed in the Church of Rome towching the onely true God the holy Trinity the Mediator Christ the Resurrection Life eternall c. we could not possibly look to be saved Yet do we not therefore approve their Assemblies to be true Churches or the members thereof true Christians in their estate 2. He separated from your Church as remaining in Antichristian cōstitution and professeth here that he durst not ioine with the publik worship of your Assemblies The causes thereof he mentioneth in the same confession which you conceale Of which see further in his aunswer to Mr Fanshaw hereafter following 3. He confesseth that manie of the Teachers and professors in your assemblies have so embraced the truth of doctrine established and professed in the Land as the Lord hath given them to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lords election he iudged them members of that body whereof Christ is the head and prayed God herein to be mercifull to them as to himself in regard of all his sinnes that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in the Church Now marke here 1. that this is no other thing then as we alway did and still do professe likewise Of which see before Pag. 7. 41. 2. That he speaketh but of some not of all the members of your Church Whereas your Assumption and Conclusion are of your whole publik Assemblies and so of every member of your Church as towching their outward stāding therein 3. That the perswasion he had of such among you was as himself noteth in regard of the Lords election not of their estate in your Churches constitution For towching this which is the question between vs here he prayed God to be mercifull to them as to him self in respect of all his sinnes Now I suppose you will not denie but his sinnes as also the sinnes of all Gods people deserve in their owne nature the curse of God if they were not forgiven in Christ So that by praying thus he acknowledged the estate of all even of the best among you to be such as for this verie cause you are everie one subiect to Gods wrath because you are not vnder that outward forme of Governement which Christ hath left in the Church Consider withall that even for Papists we may pray thus that the Lord would be mercifull to them in this that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in his Church and yet not hereby iustify them to be a true Church in their estate but rather the quite contrarie For Christ his Church wheresoever and among whomsoever it be is vnder Christ his governement not vnder Antichrists Neither have anie people promise of salvation in such estate 4. By all this it appeareth that he spake of them as iudging them to be members of the invisible and Catholick Church which conteyneth all Gods elect not onelie among you but among the Lutherans Anabaptists Papists and all other people whatsoever Now what is this to the poinct of the question controverted which is not of men as they belong to the Catholick invisible Church but as they stand members of some particular visible Assemblies in this or that constitution 4. His speach in examination before Mr Fanshaw why do you not set it downe in his owne words as you did the other before Belike you see your self it is against you howsoever you would pretend otherwise That all may know it thus it was Mr Fanshaw asked him this questiō Do the Martyrs teach you that there is no Church in England Mr Penry answered If you meane by a Church as the most do that publik professiō wherby men do professe salvation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Iesus Christ I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this Land For I know the doctrine of the holy Trinity the natures and offices of the Lord Iesus free iustification by him both the Sacraments c. published by her Maiestyes authority and commaunded by her Lawes to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truths without the knowledge and profession whereof no salvation is to be had These are his words By which you may see he saith no other thing here then what he spake in his Confession before obiected So as the answer given for it may serve for this also Or if that please you not you may mynd it thus If he had ben demaunded by Mr Fanshaw whether there were no Church of Christ in Rome and had answered thus If you meane by a Church that publick profession whereby men do professe Christ Iesus by nature to be truly both God and man that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his blood as a full and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes c. as the Papists do publikly professe Rhem. Annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5 then am I free from denying any Church of Christ to be in Rome If I say to this question he had thus aunswered would you have concluded vpon his words that he acknowledged the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ or the members thereof to be true Christians in their constitution Or do you see for the Church of Rome but not for your owne that such conclusion can not be pressed out of his words But yet further for the more clearing of this matter let vs marke what Mr Fanshaw next asked and he aunswered towching the estate of your Church and his separation from it Vpon his former aunswer Mr Fanshaw said thus vnto him Seing you acknowledge that her Maiesty hath established the truth in so many waighty points seing she hath commaunded the true Sacraments to be administred what mislike you in our Church and why will you not be partaker of these truths and Sacraments with vs Mr Penry answered I mislike 1. the false
tyme and after as †Beza in Acts 15.20 some thinke even till their Temple and Citie were destroyed though they did personally hate and persecute Christ Such also was the sinne of the auncient declyning Bishops Cyprian Epiphanius Augustine Chrisostome Leo of Rome c. No lesse was in ours of late Cranmer Ridly Hooper c. in King Edwards dayes and no greater is now in ours presently especially towching our Churches Ministers too generally If you say we are all convicted now and sinne against our owne consciences as they did not in those tymes It is vtterly false and a palpable vntruth Whosoever knoweth any thing in our Church estate generally must needs see it that this poinct towching the Hyerarchy is not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one many holding and not of the simplest this present governement to be th' only true and right kinde but all men almost to be indifferent and lawfull very few indeed and scarce to be found that see it to be meerly nought or as you terme it wicked intolerable And in king Edwards tyme whosoever considereth shall finde H. Iâ— that the godly learned Protestans then were not vtterly ignorant of this point of reformation and yet sinned not against their conscience in bearing with the tymes neither were abolished from Christ And surelie towching the Iewes they were all generally more convicted then that Iesus vvas the Christ then vve are now that the Prelacy is of Antichrist yet they remayned a Church still because generally indeed they vvere not plainly conuicted Thus then this our sinne is * see the 2. sortes of fundamentall sinnes in the 2. Reply to your yâ—â—â—eason before Pag. 142 Fr. Io. See the aunswer thereto in the same treatise Pag 144.147 no way fundamentall it destroyeth not faith Christianity in our vvhole assemblies Therefore they remaine Christian people still as I affirmed not all godles prophane as you vncharitably speak O beware of rash hasty iudging even of one brother Rom. 14.3.4.13 how much more of such anb so many whole assemblies professing Christ in England Woe be vnto him which curseth where God curseth not Num. 23.8 As also indeed that blesseth where God blesseth not We desire you not to blesse vs in our evill but we vvarne you not to curse vs in our good vvhich indeed turneth vs not to any furtherance but to a great hinderance and stumbling block stopping vs from that syncerity vvhich els vve should dravve nearer vnto Blessed is he that iudgeth vvisely that is vvithout affection and partialitie even of him that is despised Better it is and more Christianlike even to offend in too much compassion and patience especially tovvardes so many hundreth thousands by vvhom vve knovv nought saue good in this poinct then to offend in too much rigor and severity and vniust anger Mat. 5.22 Hovvbeit this vvere not indeed to offend as hath ben above shevved And briefly in twoo vvords thus I conclude it farther that That faith and religion taught in the booke of Articles published 1562. maketh the people that beleeve and obey the same true Christians such as so living dying may be saved But our Church doeth so holde that faith Therefore they are true Christians The Proposition onely is doubted I had thought none so desperate as to deny it but lately I vnderstand you haue denyed it Hovvbeit for ansvver I referre you partly to that vvhich here hath bene said before especiallie to that vvhich is replyed to your Answer in the former Treatise which being well weighed I doubt not but all indifferent Christian mindes will acknowledge our publique Church assemblies in England to be true Christians Fran. Iohnson his Aunsvver YOu have now ten tymes reproched me and are not ashamed Whatsoever your self or others do think of your Churches estate God forbid that I should eyther iustify it or take away myne owne innocency in witnessing the truth against it Heare therefore and I will aunswer you once againe I will open my mouth for the truth against him that pleadeth for Baal The strength of the Reason standeth not as you ignorantlie suppose in the truth or falshood of the particulars you mention but in this that it is not so vvith choyse of Ministers in the Church as it is vvith choyse of parties in mariage For Infidels Idolaters godles persons c. may in that estate marry togeather but they are not in that estate capable of choosing and ioyning to a true Minister And therefore your Comparison doth not hold Yet the particulars do all of them availe much against you whatsoever you pretend to the contrary The first is directlie to the question For although now having seen my aunswer you speak of Christian people yet your comparison which was given me to aunswer spake at first of ignorant persons and those also such as might marry togeather Now you cannot deny but ignorant persons be they never so prophane and godles may marry one with another Yet have they not power in such case to chuse a Minister It is your self then that keep not the point but chop and chaunge the termes of your Argument as you think may best fit your turne And yet all this chaunging of your hew will avayle you nothing at all vnles you could prove 1. That your people in that Church-constitution are true Christians 2. That your Ministers so made and received are true Pastors But neither of these can you do For the first let the Reader see the former treatise where this point is purposelie handled And mynd here that your self confesse some of your Assemblies are all and wholy prophane godles persons Of which you say you speak not Yet tell vs whether you think such Assemblies be true Churches such people true Christians and their Ministers hauing like ordering of the Prelates and acceptance of the people true Pastors or not For the latter this is the treatise and place where you should prove it if you could But behold you do nothing lesse In the Comparison Pag 186. Nay even here you yeeld that your calling received from the Prelates is vnlawfull Yet this is the onelie maner of calling that your Church constitution appointeth That which you speak of your Assemlies not being all and wholy profane and godles persons is nothing to the purpose You might easilie have seen if you had mynded the words of my Reason that I sayd expresselie your Assemblies consist of all sorts of people that is some better some worse Yet seing the best among you remaine in confusion with the worst and all of you in bondage to Antichrist that even for this cause also you can not in that estate be deemed true Churches having power to chuse such Officers as Christ hath appointed for his Church And where you say whole companyes of Christians are not by such commixtures made vnholy prophane and godles it is wholy from the questioÌ„ The point is not
publik Church asseblyes for such Christians as in that estate they are found to be by the word of God If by it either you or anie other can prove them to be true ones I have done If not then I wish you and all others to yeeld to the truth and no longer to strive against it Hitherto of the first Exception against your Comparison Chap. 3. The Second Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe Priest doth not celebrate or pronounce any marriage without the married first giue their consent But the Prelate make ministers without and before the peoples cōsent Therefore the Comparison holdeth not H. Iacob his Reply FIrst it is very vaine to make this any matter viz the peoples consenting either before or after the Prelats ordeyning For whether before or after it is in nature and value all one They in their ignorance having respect only to the Prelats act And if it were so that the Priest should sometymes marie a couple the Maide being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striving nor resisting and a while after shall willingly agree like Out of question there is now true wedlock betweene them Even so the case is betwixt the Church and the Minister 2. But what will you except here against those Pastors amongst vs that were first chosen by the people they first professing their consent and are after instituted and inducted by the Prelat Many are thus called amongst vs and the most have the peoples consent even together at their first inducting at least wise they have soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them even presently 3. Lastly in a word where you say the Prelats make Ministers without before the peoples consent Beza in Act. 14.23 Fenner against Bridges Pag. 148. We affirme that they make not the Pastor at all indeed and in truth but onely supposedly It is the Churches consent that maketh him truly whether before or after the Bishop that skilleth not If any thinke Imposition of hands to be simplie necessarie to the being of a Minister that is also an error and can not be proved Fr. Io. his Aunswer BEcause I see you need it Mr Iacob I will deale very liberallie with you I graunt that your peoples consenting whether before or after the Prelates ordeining is in nature and valew all one c. that is of no valew or force at all Whether you respect the Law of God which knoweth no such jugling of people and Prelates or the Law of your owne Church which appoynteth no such election by the people at all And thus too it is a very vayne thing for you to make this any matter viz our peoples consenting eyther before or after the Prelates ordeyning Yet remember that your Cōparison which I answered spake of people that had made choyse of a Minister before he came for ordination to the Prelate Therefore it was and is ynough against the Comparison to shew that the Priests can not celebrate mariage before the partyes consent ech to other Whereas the Prelates make Ministers both before and without the peoples consent yea and without their knowledge commonly It is vayne then in you to count such exception vayne I mynd also how deceitfully you passe by that clause without the peoples consent Therefore to discover your fraud and to see what better answer you can give in your next I will propound the Reason also thus The Priest doth not celebrate any mariage without the maryed first give their consent But the Prelates make Ministers without the peoples consent Therefore the Comparison holdeth not Your case of a Mayde being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striving nor resisting is meerly absurd and ridiculous Can it possibly be that one should both be meerlie enforced denying consent and yet not strive nor resist As soone may you make Fier and Water agree together as these two For to be enforced yea meerlie enforced must needs imply a striving or resisting against it Els what needed there or how should there be said to be anie forcing But you say if afterward she agree there is true wedlock True in deed if they both agree But then it is not by reason of anie thing done before which was sinfull altogether but by vertue of the present mutuall willing consent they having liberty and power to marrie together according to Gods ordinance But with your people and Assemblyes it is far otherwise seing you have not liberty or power in your estate to call a Minister according to the ordinance of Christ Which I have proved both in the first Reason before and in the rest hereafter following 2. To your demaund about Ministers first chosen by the people afore they are instituted by the Prelates I aunswer that if your people had power in your estate to chuse a Minister which they have not yet the receiving of institution and induction by the Prelates afterward being never ordeined by God were at least to set your thresholds by Gods thresholds that is your inventions by Gods ordinances Which were in very deed to commit abomination against the Lord and to defile his holy Name and you in so doing become so far from having him present with you as even by this meanes you set a wall between him and your selves Ezech. 43.8 And not so onely but do also rebell against the Lord and turne away from him in receiving an other Ministery for the administration of his holy things thē he by his word hath ordeined in his Church Ios 22.29 Let the Reader note here besides how you speak onelie of the institution and induction by the Prelates and closely passe over the Prelates first ordeining of them Priests and Deacōs Without which they are in your Church no Ministers at all neyther capable of anie benefice though the people should never so much make choyse of any Where you say most of your Ministers have the peoples consent at their first inducting or at least soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them even presently First I aunswer as before that your peoples consent in your estate is of no moment Secondly if this reason of yours be good then your dumbe Priests Non-residents and most Popish Ministers in the worst tymes and places are to be accounted true Pastors aswell as the best among you because vpon their inductiō the people submit to their Ministery and mainteyne them even presently For who knowes not that when once a Priest is presented by the Patrone and inducted by the Prelate to a benefice your people do and must joyne to his Ministery and for his maintenance give him their tithes c. will they nill they Adde herevnto that even the maintenance belonging to your Ministery is such as was never ordeyned by Christ and therefore neither to be received by the Ministers nor given by the people Which I prove thus 1. Your Ministrrs are mainteyned by Tithes which is Iewish and ceased with “
vvicked persons theyr offices beeing very gainefull and besides they liuing vnder the authoritie of the Heathirish Romans vvho ruled ouer them All these things considered it is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution on vvhich they so much depend vvere vvholy altered from the right institution and therefore vvould make nothing for them As for theyr allegation of Mat. 23.1 VVhere they say Christ testifieth that they had true offices by saying they satt in Moses chaire It vvill not help them any vvhit at all For Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chaire must be vnderstood of somevvhat else themselves ‡ ‡ Mr Barrovv Mr Greēvvood in diuers Letters and Treatises have vnderstood it heretofore of Moses doctrine The Aunswer Do not they erre that imagine evill And doth not a deceyver speak lyes Prov. 14.22.25 What then may we think of him that counteth it a small thing to lye against Man if he do not also open his mouth against heaven and give the lye to the holy Ghost himself See both in this man here Against vs and I feare against his own conscience he forgeth a lye when he sayth vve do vvholy depend on their outvvard constitution c. For he knoweth we obiect against them besides and separate from them for much false doctrine publikly taught and mainteyned among them and for theyr wretched persecution of the truth and Martyrs of Iesus Therefore do we not wholy depend on theyr outward constitution From which it is to be noted that he severeth theyr publik doctrine as himself sheweth in the next Section and so therefore here we speak accordingly And that he knoweth these things appeareth both by this Treatise first published by himself where we have declared it in divers particulars Pag. 66. 108. 157. 158 159. 160. and in that himself hath seen and alleadgeth in this very Section another treatise written in answer of Mr A. H. where mo instances are given concerning this matter As may be seen in that book Pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. 22. 23. 37. 90. 91. To the holy Ghost he giveth the lye yea and maketh Christ our Lord a sinner in that which here he speaketh first of the constitution of the Ievvish Churches For the Scripture teacheth that the constitution of that Church was a true one and that Christ did himself communicate therein with them Yet this man besides that he sayth afterward that it is very likely the offices and outvvard constitution thereof vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Euen here at first he sayth peremptorily that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Which how shamefully false it is may appeare even by this that in those very tymes the estate of the Iewes Church yet was such as they were a people separated from the world having the true Ministery ordinances worship and administration which God by Moses had commanded As these Scriptures do plainely testify Luk. 1.6.8 9.10 11. 2.22.23.24.27.46 Mat. 8.4 Ioh. 1.19 4.22 5.1 11.55.2 Tim. 1.3.5 Yea they would not at any hand admit eyther of confusion of people or of any other Ministery then God had ordeyned As may be seen for the first in Act. 21.28 29. and for the latter in Iob. 1 19-25 Mat. 21.25.26 How shameles then is it to say as here he doth that theyr constitution was as greatly altered and corrupted as that of the Churches of England which to this day stand confused of all sorts of people aswell the prophanest as the best among them and have no other Ministery or Leiturgy but such as they have receyved from Antichrist the man of sinne and from Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 And further if the Iewish Church had ben thus corrupted as he feareth not to affirme how could Christ have communicated with them as he did but he must needs have sinned ād that highly against the Law of God viz. if he had as it is now in England joyned to such a Church as were vnseparated from the World or had partaken with a false Ministery or had sent others to a straunge Priesthood and Service or had approved by word or deed any other ordinances then those which God had commaunded c. This Scribe then must eyther approve the Church-constitution of England by the word of God or els confesse that it and the Iewish Churches are in this poynt nothing alike or if neyther of these that then Iesus Christ was a sinner Of whom the truth itself and work of our redemption testify that he knew no sinne at all but was like to vs in all things sinne excepted 2 Cor. 5.21 Heb. 4.15 7.26 This man then doth thus also both blaspheme the Sonne of God and make the holy Ghost a lyar But there were he saith tvvo high Priests at once vvhereas by the Lavv of God there should be but one 1. If it were so albeit thus they offended in the number yet still there was that office and function of Priesthood which God had ordeyned not a new one of mans devise as is the whole Hierarchy of England from the hyest Archbishop to the lowest Parish Priest And so there is no comparison between these two 2. This was the personall sinne of the men not the constitution of that Church neyther of the Offices wherein they were See it in another example Iudas an Apostle of Christ yet betrayeth him Doth it therefore follow that his office of Ministery wherein he was set by Christ himself was vnlawfull Nay that was the sinne of the Man not of the Office wherein he was What is this then to the question in hand when as the Ministery of England is charged to be straunge vnlawfull false in the very offices and functions thereof Yea and this man himself doth here by the whole course of his speach graunt as much 3. Is there any thing here said for the Priests and constitution of the Church of England which the most popish Priests Prelates Monks c. may not aswell alledge for theyrs Is theyr Ministery or constitution therefore such as man be ioyned withall 4. See how straungely these men forget and contradict themselves T. G. first Reply Pag. 83 84. Mr Cartwright writing against D. Whitgift saith If the vvhole practise of the Church vnder the Lavv be looked vpon it shall not be found that any other ecclesiasticall Ministery vvas appointed then those orders of hy Priests and Levites c. vvhich vvere appoynted by the Lavv of God And further that as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any straunge doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true do rine vnder the Name of any other function then vvas instituted by God Yet this man with an whores forehead shameth not to perswade that the offices and outvvard constitution of that Church vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Thus
the truth of God is with them become Yea and Nay so as they may seem to say any thing for defence of theyr Churches estate 5. And from whence proveth he that which here he speaketh of tvvo hy Priests at once c. Doth he shew it from the word of God No. But he saith the Historyes make mention of it So then from the Scriptures he can not bring proof for that he saith For indeed by them we fynd euen in the corruptest tymes but one at once to be by Priest Albeit that of old also there were two which were chief over all the rest the one being principall the other Second See for that of one hy Priest in such tymes these Scriptures Mat. 26.57.62.63.65 Mar. 14.53.60.61.63 Luk. 22.50.54 Ioh. 11.49 18.13.24 Act. 4.6 7.1 23.2 Heb. 5.1 8.3.4.5 And for the other poynt these 2 King 25.18 1 Chron. 24.2.3 2 Sam. 8.17 vvith Numb 3.32 4.16.18 Yea this is so cleare and certayne as for any thing written in the Scripture thereahout this man is driven himself when he looketh thither to confesse and confirme it too As here may be seen in Scriptures which himself hath noted downe 6. Why also doth he not name the Histories that mention these things together with the Persons time place and such like circumstances as might give light to the poynt in hand Is it because he would walk in the dark and hide the truth as much as he can Or is it for that he seeth if these particulars were mentioned there might yet more be answered concerning this matter 7. Finally what maner dealing is this when he knoweth that I have other were written of this very poynt yea and here alledgeth both the ♣ Ansvver to Mr H. Pa. 50 book and page yet not to aunswer any one of all the particulars which there I haue noted out of the Scripture towching this question To that Treatise therefore till it be aunswered â— may and do refer him in this behalf Next where he saith If the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through covetousnes it is not likely that the inferior offices remayned sound c. And It is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution vvere vvholy altered from the right institution c. First I wish the Reader to mynd his maner of reasoning A litle before he sayd he doubted not plainely to take avvay that vvhich vve obiect of theyr outvvard constitution Yet behold the yssue of his first and chiefest proof is all come to this It is not othervvise likely It is very likely c. Thus his playne demonstration if it fitted his turne yet is no other but a meer likelyhood and presumption And that also gathered from other writers not from the Scriptures Is not this theÌ„ think you as playne a taking away of our obiection as it is a sound defence of theyr Church-constitution Neyther barrell better herring But what now if by the Scriptures it be not onely likely but indeed certayne that it was otherwise with the Iewes then here he saith concerning theyr offices and outvvard constitution How hath he then plainely taken away our objection as he pretended Let him search therefore and he shall fynd that they were so farre from admitting any straung functions among them as they * Iohn 1 19-23 vrged Iohn the Baptist to shew warrant for his Ministery from the word of God And besides by theyr silence to Christs question about Iohns baptisme do plainely testify that ‡ Mat. 21.25 26. themselves judged no Ministery lawfull but that which is from heaven that is such onely as is of God not of Men. If here now we would vse his manner of reasoning how great likelyhoods might we justly alledge from these Scriptures to the contrary of that he sayth But to put the matter out of all doubt the Scripture witnesseth of Zachary Iohn Baptists father that he being then one of the Priests executed the Priests office and vvalked in in all the commandements ordinances of the Lord vvithout reproof Luk. 1.5.6.8.9 Which how could it possibly have ben if the offices and constitution of that Church had ben wholy altered as this man here pretendeth Note also that all the Priests then were of the tribe of Levi of the posterity of Aaron consecrated to their functions sitting in that seat which God by Moses had appointed for the Ministery and regiment of that Church Ioh. 1.19 Act. 4.6 Heb. 5.1.4 Mat. 23.2 vvith Deut. 33.4.8.10 Finally Christ himself giveth testimony to the lawfulnes of their Ministery and constitution when he said to the clensed Leper Go shevv thy self to the Priest and offer for thy clensing as Moses hath commaunded Luk. 5.14 By which is most playne that they had at that tyme both the true Ministery and ordinances which God by Moses had appoynted How false then must it needs be that this man saith their offices and outvvard constitution vveâ—e vvholy altered from the right institution But who is so bold aâ— blynd Bayard Of their true offices imported by sitting in Moses chayre I have * A treatise of the Man of England Pag. 54. 55. els where spoken and proved it by divers reasons and testimonyes out of the word of God To which D. B. can fynd no aunswer but yet is loth to yeeld to the truth Moses he sayth vvas a Magistrate What then Therefore Moses chayre must be vnderstood of somevvhat els But why so Doth he not know that Moses in that his governement of Israel even by the commaundement of God appoynted Aaron and his sonnes to the Priests office for the burning of incense before the Lord c. Wherevppon also when Corah and his company did afterward murmure aÌ„d presumed to take the Priests Office vpon them it is sayd they rose vp and gathered themselves together not onely against Aaron to whom it belonged but agaynst Moses also who from God had appoynted him and his sonnes therevnto Lev. 8. 9. chap. vvith Numb 16. 17. 18. chap. Note withall that Moses a litle before his death blessing the tribes of Israel when he had the heads of them assembled together spake thus of Levi turning his speach vnto God Let thy Thummim and thyne vrim be vvith thyne Holy one c. They shall teach Iacob thy judgements and Israel thy Lavv they shal put incense before thy face and the burnt offring vpon thyne altar c. Deut. 33.4.5.8.9.10.11 With which Scripture and speach of Moses if we compare that of Nehemiah where he speaketh of ♣ Neh. 9.3.4.5 c. the Levites stayre or hy seat and theyr standing vpon it vvhen they taught the Lavv c. And that of Christ where he sayd * Mat. 23.2.3 The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses chayre observe therefore vvhatsoever they speak c. And that of Iohn where he sayth ‡ Ioh. 1.19.24 the Pharisees vvich vvere sent to Iohn Baptist about his Ministery vvere Priests
do it from all And for your resistance whether it be such as you speak of or not we leave to the Lord who knoweth the hearts and wayes of all men It sufficeth vs as it did the Apostles and must do the servants of God in all ages that the Reasons of separation include and belong vnto you all even all your Churches Ministers and people in that estate As I haue declared before throughout this Treatise Towching the conclusion Therefore vntill you prove the contrarie which will never be mark what I say the Paradox still remaineth vpon you and your Church Towching the reformed Churches some of * your selves men of far better iudgement and learning then Mr Iacob have confessed and published In the first Admonition to the Parl. that you have all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome against you And further that you have an Antichristian Hierarchy and Popish ordering of Ministers straunge from the word of God and the vse of all well reformed Churches in the world Yet you like blind Bayard sticke not boldlie to say to the contrarie that all men know they hold communion with you as Churches of God First then reconcile your self Mr Iacob with your fellow Reformists at home And then your Churches Hierarchy and constitution with the Ministerie and constitution of the reformed Churches abroad And remember here that the Ministery of those Churches is not esteemed sufficient by yours As the Priesthood of Rome is The proof of both which you may see in the answer to Mr A.H. Pag. 96. With whether of these then I pray you do you hold communion Or do you not in deed halt as newters between both Mynd further that Mr Beza whose iudgement you know is worthilie reverenced and approved in all the reformed Churches speaking but of fower or five of your corruptions affirmeth that in the Antichristian Church there is nothing more intolerable Bez. Epist. 8. yea that your case being so it is not a corrupcion of Christianitie but in deed a manifest defection from Christ His owne words I noted before Pag. 73. Now when themselves do thus witnes and write of your estate how should anie think that they hold communion with you as the Churches of God vnles you could prove they do also hold it the Church of God which standeth in manifest defection from Christ I know in deed that you have long deceived them by the Apology which you published for your selves against the Papists In which you concealed from them all your corruptions and abominations By meanes whereof not hauing knowledge of the truth of your estate they have therevpon for a tyme thought much better of it then it doth deserve or will beare As even some among them alreadie vpon better information synce have acknowledged But of this matter and of your dealing therein Reason 6 I have written alreadie †in the answer to Mr T. C. And therefore for these things I do still refer you as I did The Answer to Mr Hild. such as it is now is published And so may the answer to Mr Cartw. be in tyme speciallie seing you do thus provoke therevnto In the meane tyme divers copies thereof are abroad in mens hands In which as also in the ‡ other Treatise A â—revisâ—o â—f the Minist of Engl. Pag 67. 68. 69. I have noted in sundrie particulars the testimonie of the reformed Churches against your present estate You Mr Iacob may account of these or anie other our writings as you please Your toungue is no sclaunder Yet till we be answered and that soundlie from the word of God all men of conscience will see and mynd how you bring nothing at all in defence of your Churches and Ministerie but frivolous and wandring words Next followeth our owne acknowledgement to be discussed For towching that bloody mind and speach of yours when you say if we be troubled for witnessing against your Church estate none can pitty our imprisonnement banishement c. I leave you and it vnto God a See the like before Pag. 112. who seeth and will iudge Onelie let the Reader note here “ againe that not the Prelates alone but you also the forward preachers and professors have wittinglie and willinglie your hand in our blood Mr Barrow is the first you name Whom together with Mr Greenwood you †At Tyâ—um by London in the yeare 1593. Apr. 6. killed in time of Parliament that the ages present and to come may know it was done with knowledge of the whole Land In all his speach there is not one word that the members of your Church are true Christians in that estate He testifyed vnto death and sealed with his blood that you do all stand in Antichristian estate I think your self will not be so shameles as to deny it Now in his speach here alledged by your self marke fower things which all do shew it is against you 1. That speaking of the Martyrs false offices and corruptions he deemeth them saved notwithstanding through the mercy of God which superabounded above their sinnes c. By which is evident that he thought them vnder the wrath of God in respect of their false offices corruptions had not the mercy of God superabounded above those their sinnes For mercy you know presupposeth misery and superaboundance thereof a great measure of sinne 2. He intimateth as if he thought that these their sinnes were vnseen of them as doubtles they were of manie of them yea and of all of them as towching that measure of knowledge which God hath synce by his word revealed therein 3. He declareth that he was far from cutting of all among you as Mr Gifford suggested from Gods election or from Christ Where marke that he speaketh of Gods election vnder which we also trust that manie of you are not of your present outward estate In his Disco of the false Church Ref. of Mr Giff. Conferen c In respect whereof here he saith the servants of Christ may iustlie deny you in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church A case very wofull and miserable Yet adde herevnto that which ‡ els where often he testifyed that your Ministery worship estate are Antichristian c. For which cause he could not ioine with you in such estate but separated from you and witnessed this against you vnto death himself so signifying at the very tyme and place of his execution So far was he from iudging you to be in that estate true Christians To make the case yet more plaine know that we dare not condeÌ„ne them of the Church of Rome with any such peremptorie sentence as Mr Giffard accuseth vs to cutt them all from Gods election or from Christ Doth it therefore follow that in the constitution of there Church we iudge them true Christians Nothing lesse Yet thus you shame not to reason 4. He asketh what now should let that we should not have the same hope as of the Martyrs
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is exalted above lifted vp set before or as we vsually speak Prelate 2. Thes 2.4 11. How it can be then that Pastors should be made by the Prelates as here he taketh for graunted Men surelie do not gather grapes of thornes nor figs of thistles Neither hath the throne of iniquitie which forgeth wrong for a Law fellowship with the Lord. And whatsoever be preteÌ„ded to the contrary certaine it is that Christ and Antichrist cannot accord together Mat. 7.16 Psal 94.20 2 Cor. 6.14.15 To the end therefore that the Reader may better perceive Mr Iacobs corrupt dealing it will not be amisse brieflie to note here out of their owne Pontificall and practise how the Ministers he speaketh of are made by the Prelates 1. First they are made Deacons or half Priests whose duty is to read the book of Common prayer and Homilyes to minister Baptisme to assist the Priest at divine service and if he have the Prelates licence to preach withall 2. Then after a yeares service in that Deaconship or such tyme as pleaseth the Ordinary comming to be made full Priests they are preseÌ„ted to the Lordbishop or his Suffragane by an ArchdeacoÌ„ or his deputy saying Note this Point of blasphemy For now Christ alone hath the Ministery of Priesthood that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is such as can not passe froÌ„ him vnto another Heb. 7.23.24 Reverend father in God I present these persons present to be admitted to the Order of Priesthood 3 The Prelate then saith to such as be there be they his Serving meÌ„ or any other that happen to come that way Good people these be they whom we purpose God willing to receive this day vnto the holy Office of Priesthood c. 4. None of them shewing anie impediment to the contrary the Clerks and people present say or sing the Letany c. And the Prelate readeth over a number of Collects and stinted prayers taken out of the Popes poÌ„tificall with an exhortation an Epistle and Gospell wherein they abuse and pervert the Scripture 5. The Prelate demaundeth of them thus Do you think in your heart that you be truly called according to the will of our Lord Iesus Christ and the order of this Church of EnglaÌ„d to the * Ministery of Priesthood And the partyes to be ordeined then aunswer every one for himself I think it 6. After other questions and aunswers about the sufficiency of the Scriptures c. wherein they condemne themselves the Prelate asketh if they will reverently obey their Ordinary and other chief Ministers of the Church that is the Lordbishop of the Dioces where they live the Archbishop Archdeacon Chauncelor Commissary and the rest of that Antichristian Hierarchy They make aunswer againe every one of them saying I will so do the Lord being my helper 7. Then the Bishop readeth a prayer for them that they may have strength and power to performe the same and desireth the congregation secretly in their prayers to make humble supplications to God for the foresaid things For the which prayers there is a certayne space kept in silence Note this mystery 8. After a while the Prelate prayeth againe in such wise as is set downe vnto him in the book being not able belike otherwise to coÌ„ceive any prayer himself 9. When this is done the Prelate with the Priests present lay their hands severallie vpon the head of every one that receiveth orders the receivers humblie kneeling vpon their knees and the Prelate saying vnto them * Note here againe blasphemy Receyve the holy Ghost whose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven and whose sinnes thou doest retaine they are retained c. 10. Then is sung the Creed and they go to the communion they that received orders being appointed to tary and receive the communion with the Bishop the same day and remaining in the †Well fare all good tokens same place where the hands were laid vpon them c. So testifying that they are of the same faith and body with the Prelates who are knowen to be notable persecuters of the truth and very Antichrists themselves 11. Now being thus made Priests and yet I omit many like things that might be noted out of their Book and practise for it were endles to recount all they pay for their letters of orders Which they must also have in a readines at all tymes to shew whensoever there shall be occasion for better assurance that they have received the Beasts mark And if now they be to enter vpon a benefice or whensoever that day cometh for which they are now prepared to day afore to morrow then there is yet further required that they have the presentation of the Patrone who perhaps is a Papist or an Atheist or a child or the like and the institution of the Lord-bishop who without question is an Antichrist Ephes 4.5 1 Cor. 12. â—5 with 1 Pet. 2.25 5.3.4 The true Church hath but * one Lordbishop the Lord Iesus Christ All other Lordbishops are Antichrists 12. Lastly being thus ordered presented instituted and having sworne Canonicall obedience to the Prelates now whether the people will or not they are and must be their Priests and have charge of their soules And both themselves their Ministery and people remaine subiect to the Prelates and to their Antichristian courts power jurisdiction c. This is the case of all the Priests even of them that have the most and best acceptance of the people whereof he speaketh And would any now have thought that the Prelates making and the peoples accepting of Priests being such Mr Iacob would be so sencelesse as to perswade that these are true and lawfull Pastors Might he not aswell tell vs that a cleane thing may be brought out of filthines yea that Christ may be made to agree with Antichrist Which both Scripture and experieÌ„ce teacheth can never be Iob. 14.4 2 Cor. 6.15 Eyther therefore let him make the tree good Mat. 12.33 and his fruit good or els make the tree evill and his fruit evill If the Prelates and their functions be Antichristian and were never but nought then such must needs be the Ministery derived and received from them But so it is with the Prelates even himself being witnes who both yeelded it * Pag. 92. before And here agayne in playne termes confesseth that the calling received from them is vnlawfull By this it is too evident that the light of the truth shineth in his coÌ„scieÌ„ce howsoever he strive against it Therefore will I not now further vrge it hoping that himself in tyme will better mynd it In the meane tyme let the Reader note it And withall that this calling by the Prelates which he yeeldeth to be vnlawfull is the onely calling which by Law is ratifyed and allowed in that Church And doth not Mr Iacob then whiles he saith notwithstanding they are true and lawfull Pastors speak riddles and contradict himself These things
being observed and Mr Iacob desired to resolve them in his next I will now proceed to shew the weaknes and insufficiency of his present pretended Defence Where for more evidence of the truth I will first set downe the Reasons heretofore alledged against his Cōparisō and then aunswer his cavils now brought against them Chap 2. The first Reason against Mr Iacobs Comparison as it was first propounded Fran. Iohnson INfidels Idolaters prophane and godles persons may marry togeather with consent and choise of each other notwithstanding their prophanenes And their marriage is therein lawfull But it standeth not so with choise of Ministers in the Church For prophane godles persons such as these Assemblies consist of being never rightlie gathered togeather according to Gods ordinance remaining in subiection and bondage to their false Antichristian Offices and Courts consisting of all sorts of people c. are not capable of chusing and ioyning to a true Minister in this estate as Infidels and such like may marry in their estate Therefore the comparison holdeth not neyther is such choise of a Minister by such people lawfull H. Iacob his Reply THe strength of this Reason standeth in these last words But these Assemblies consist of such people 1. prophane godles persons 2. neuer rightly gathered together according to Gods ordinance 3. remayning in subiection and bondage to their false and Antichristian officers courts Ergo c. These three accusations availe nothing at all The first Accusation is from our question Accusatiō 1. for we speake of a Christian people but you of assemblies consisting of prophane and godles persons If you say our assemblies all wholy are such That is false If you say some are Of them we speake not If you say in all every one of our assemblies there are some yea many open prophane and godles persons 1. It is too bold a saying and without knowledge to speak so of all 2. If it were true yet it were false to say our assemblies consist of such or to thinke that whole companies of Christians by such commixtures are made vnholy prophane and godles which is contrary to these scriptures Mat. 23.2.3 Luke 2.21.22 1.6 Act. 21.23.26 1 Sam. 2.17 cap. 1. vers 3.9 Rev. 2.20.21 3.1.4 1 Cor. 3.3 Gal. 3.1.2 4.11.16 5.4.9 The second Accusation that our assemblies were neuer rightly gathered togeather at the first according to Gods ordinance I deny it Accusatiō 2 especially towching many famous Congregations in the Land where the GOSpell was not vnknowen before the Queenes commaundement came to vrge them to receive this doctrine And if the maner of receiving it then in those hard and doubtfull tymes and hazardous beginnings were not so perfect nor so exact as should haue ben yet we may see by the example of “ 2 Chro. 30.17.18 19.20 Hezechias and * 2 Chr. 33.15.16.17 Manasses and †Zepha 1.4.5 3.1 Ier. 3.6 c. 4.1 c. 5.1 c. Iosias reformations That God imputeth it not to such godly and zealous restorers the pillers and ground of the trueth in those dayes If you say the vntaught people then suddenly receiving the Gospell by cōmandement not by hearing could not beleeve at the first though they professed and therefore at the first were no true Christians nor Churches I aunswer 1. Though many received the Gospell for the commandements sake yet who can say That now they all generally wanted all knowledge and all faith The word then having ben in many places taught very many bookes scattered much conference daily consultations and disputations vsed and the blood of the Martyrs having preached so loud and so lately before 2. It was not so sudden There was †From Nouember the 17. till Midsomer following more then halfe a yeare for the people to heare learne and consider before the commandement came So that it can not be counted meer force and compulsion that at the beginning of our Queenes reigne brought vs to the truth 3. I would know You condemne not I hope all reformation commanded and compelled by the Magistrate 2 Chron. 34.32.33 33.16 15.13 .. Seeing therefore the assemblies thus openly and aduisedly submitted to the proclaimed truth who seeth not but they cōfessed therein their former errors and professed their present faith and vndertooke a new life from that which before they led though happely not so formallie nor so perfectlie as were to have ben wished But they received all togeather Papists Atheistes ignorant men and all dissolute livers Obiection into one communion and fellowship Indeed all who after this aduizement and notice taken submitted to and receyved this doctrine Answer these were all receyued in And therefore no open professed Papistes Athistes nor other Heretikes As for ignorant men it is not possible but many will scape among the rest in so great so generall reformation of a publike state And so questionles it was in Hezechias Manasses Iosias reformation 2. Chron. which we noted before The notorious dissolute wicked some were reclaimed all vndertook another profession and a new appearance of Christianitie And no doubt the like is to be thought of these as before I obserued touching the ignorant men Now all this was done not intollerablie doubtlesse though I graunt weakly and corruptly very like euen to your owne receiuing in to your Church at this time nay more tollerable and more lawfull then yours who to furnish onely one congregation have received many * This particular Mr Iacob hath not printed but it was in his written copy which I aunswered bankrupts knowen bad men and very ignorant yea and still retaine men full of contention and bitter strife 1 Cor. 3..3 In a word this I answer That which disanulleth not a Church gathered and settled That disanulleth it not in the gathering and beginning But such mixtures do not disanull a Church gathered and settled as appeareth above in the scriptures quoted against the First Accusation Mat. 23. Luke 2 c. Therefore such mixtures did not disanull our Churches then in their beginning The Third Accusation is Our Assemblies remayne in obedience to the false Antichristian Officers Accusatiō 3. c. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversitie of sinnes All are not of like detestation before God not of like consequence against vs. I say not that any sinnes are veniall but I say all sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ nor deprive vs of the glory of God Now this sinne of outward Church orders is not of the most heynous nor extreamest disobedience There are sinnes against the †1 Cor. 15 2.3.4 Rom. 1.25 1 Cor. 3.10 11.12.13.14 foundation and there are sinnes that stande with the foundation ibid. wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved Such were the sinnes of the Iewish Church and estate in Christs