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A68098 A pleasant dialogue, betweene a souldior of Barwicke, and an English chaplaine Wherein are largely handled & laide open, such reasons as are brought in for maintenaunce of popishe traditions in our Eng. church. Also is collected, as in a short table, 120. particular corruptions yet remaining in our saide church, with sundrie other matters, necessary to be knowen of all persons. Togither with a letter of the same author, placed before this booke, in vvay of a preface. Gilby, Anthony, ca. 1510-1585. 1581 (1581) STC 11888; ESTC S109674 76,666 200

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by my talke by all these bruites abroade and by the bitter contention that is fallen amongest the learned that these thinges do not edifie For such thinges as rayse contention in the Church of Christe do not edifie These ragges haue raised such a contention in England as neuer was since the gospell was in Englande Therefore they do not edifie They choke the synceritie of the gospell they staye and stoppe the course of the gospell they declare them to be halters that we are them they ioyne hands and drawe the yoke with the wicked Papistes they declare no true sigues of repentaunce whylest they are not ashamed of the shewes of their olde whorishe superstitions they giue Christe a reede in his hande and attire him with a crowne of thorne as though hee were vnable to appointe his Ministerie and Sacramentes without mens deuises they take away the differēce of the olde and new Testament they keepe the people in blindnesse and in the heauie clogge of cōscience that they thinke still that no Sacramentes are rightlie ministred without them they cause Christes seruauntes the true Preachers to be euill spoken of as the traditions aforetime did Christ and his Apostles Howe dare any man affirme then for verie shame that these ragges do edifie And if they do so they must bring more than their owne bare authoritie least they bee founde subiect to this sentence of Isaiah Wo vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darknesse for light light for darknesse Wo vnto thē that are wise in their owne eyes prudent in their owne sight whiche buylde againe y e things that they haue destroyed and make themselues transgressors Bern. I praye thee refrayne from these raging heates so can I like thy talke verie well Mil. These are no carnall passions nor rages as thou supposest But as my sayings haue their grounde of Gods holie worde so I thanke God I doo feele the zeale of gods glorie and the loue of my Brethren leade me thus to speake And the verie hatred of that Romane Antichriste and the griefe of harte to see the godlie Preachers by this vile occasion persecuted spoyled and prisoned by their brethren and rayled vpon by the papistes and Neutralles and their places occupied by such as will onelie weare the garmentes may trouble anie Christian conscience And marke who are the moste readie to weare this popishe geare Euen the papistes the moste enemies of the Gospell for they would neuer yet refuse them but by their craftie packing haue caused many other that haue no courage for the trueth but goe backwarde not forwarde to turne to them contrarie to the precepte of God by Ieremiah Let them returne vnto thee but return thou not vnto them And I will make thee vnto this people a strong brasen wall They shall fight agaynst thee and not preuayle c. Beholde what the way is to edifie to turne whollie from the wicked vnto God onelie as the Lorde saith agayne by Ieremiah O Israell if thou returne returne vnto mee Shall my Heritage be vnto me as a birde of diuers coloures O saieth the Lord by his Prophet Hosea Ephraim hath mixed him selfe amonge the Heathen Israel is as a cake on the hearth not turned Agayne They returne but not to the moste Highe They are like a deceytfull Bowe Whereby wee maye learne that the whole turning vnto God from all superstitions and not the patched turning is that which doeth edifie The waye to edifie in Christes Kingedome is described in these wordes In that daye sayeth the Lorde of Hostes I will cut off the names of the Idolles out of the lande and they shalbe no more remembred And I will cause the false prophetes and the vncleane Spirites to departe out of the lande And when anie shall yet prophecie his father and his mother shall kill him And in that daye the Prophetes shal be ashamed of their visions neyther shall they weare their roughe garmentes to deceaue Beholde nowe that the spreading of Christes Kingdome is to take awaye the verie names and all monumentes and remembraunces of the Idolles and to make the false Teachers ashamed of theyr Garmentes wherein they haue mocked God his people Thou mayest easelie perceaue hereby Bernard that to appointe these garments as ornamentes for Christes Ministers and Sacramentes is not the right waye to edifie Christes people no more than a skarre Crowe can geather Crowes or a Wolues skinne can please the sheepe Our Sauiour Christe tooke awaye the Garmentes appointed by his father because in his spirituall kingdome they could nothing edifie And shall Antichristes Garmentes toyes therein edifie Christe reiecteth al the outwarde forme of worshippe both of the Iewes and Gentiles and sayeth That his father will from thence forth bee worshipped in Spirite and trueth And he knew the best of al others what could edifie Furthermore thus bitterlie to striue for the mayntenaunce of Popishe garmentes after the Pope is banished for massing garmentes after the Masse is abolished for the ragges of that Idolatrous and blasphemous Priesthoode where wee saye It is detested and abiured it is a great madnes Therefore it can not edifie And this mayntenaunce of the monuments of their olde spirituall fornication doth declare that men haue not yet repēted of their olde spirituall fornication Wherefore this doeth not edifie No of the contrarie it maketh to edification to bring the popishe priesthoode into full detestation But that can neuer be so long as their garments are appoynted by authoritie to bring honour reuerence to Christes ministerie and Sacramentes the strumpettes garishe geare to attire the moste chaste Virgine Antichristes whorishe smocke to Christes pure spouse howe can this edifie Bern. Stay thy self thou wilt neuer haue done Goe nowe to the seconde that these are preceptes of men Mil. Why doubtest thou of that They are not of God For it is not written in Gods booke that the Ministers of GOD should weare the garmentes of the Idolatrous priestes but the contrarie as is partlie declared and shalbe made more playne hereafter Therefore not being of God they must eyther come from man or frō the Deuill or from both together Bern. Nay there be many things that are left indifferent as all the creatures of God may be indifferently vsed or not vsed And therefore by authoritie may bee commaunded Mil. Besides that in matters of Religiō mens commaundementes are vayne There be foure things which may make things indifferent by creation not indifferent to bee vsed of Christians The first is If that they beare the markes of the Idolles as straūge formes onely vsed to y t purpose or straūge names vsed onely in the idolatrous seruice as Cope or Surplesse The seconde if they be by vsage superstitious so that vnto them is attributed any kinde of holinesse as thoughe without them the sacramentes coulde not be ministred Thirdly if they be commaunded against christian libertie
incense nor to weare a garlande vpon their heads because the christian souldier is commanded to abstayne from all shew of euill and to sight and striue agaynst the workes of darkenesse and to reprooue them and so striuing as hee oughte to doe waite for the Garlande So rather would I sterue vnder Barwick Walles than doe as thou doest and haste counselled me to doe either in taking of a Benefice by such vnlawful means or to enter into the popes liuerie my sworn enemie because I am an English man and to mee most detestable of all other earthly creatures because I am a christian man for I know am fully perswaded by the worde of God that the Pope is y e very Antichrist the sonne of perdition against whom with hart and hand I doe thinke my selfe moste bounde to fight Therefore my harte ariseth in my body when I see thee and thy fellows cloathed like his Chaplaines that burned the blessed Bible and our faythfull fathers and deare Brethren in our eyes You say that it is great wisdome for you to weare this Popishe geare and call other men fooles that will not doe it Then was there greater wisdome say I in the Pope and his Priestes that haue taught you thus to doe So may men say of a hundred points of poperie that you maintaine buying and selling licences dispensations pluralities absolutions and other marchandise of that Romane Antichrist And I doe aske you all as you will aunswere before God what doe you by these your deedes but approoue that Romish beast and labour to heale his deadly wounde and so to make a mocke of a reformation of religion But God wil not be mocked There was neuer yet any reformation begunne and after repented but it was terribly punished It is better not to haue known the way of truth saith Peter than after they haue knowne it to turne from the holy commaundement You began to runne well sayth Paule what carnall imaginations haue hindered your course Seeing we haue begunne the true Religiō by casting away mans traditions worshipping God in spirit as our Sauiour Christ hath taught vs he will not be content that you maynteyne these carnall beggerlie Antichristian pompes rites lawes garmentes and traditions Therefore like as Paule crieth out against the Galathians and calleth them fooles and counteth them bewitched for turning backe but to Iewishe ceremonies So might I call thee a foolishe Papiste bewitched by Antichrist that thus raylest against the Ministers of Christe for the maintenaunce of thy fooles bables borowed of the Papistes Bern. I do cal them none otherwise than all the world calleth them And thou shouldest do me great iniurie if thou didst so call me neither would I beare it at thy handes for it might put me in hazard of my liuing if I should yeeld to be a papist neither doth the garment make a man otherwise then he is as is the olde prouerbe Mil. No but the Garmente giueth men great occasion to gesse what hee is or howe he woulde bee counted a Courtier or a Carter a Collier or a Souldier as thou and I were wonte to weare Skarfes Harquibushes or Halbertes to signifie what we were and thou knowest that if we see a man in a Friers garment or a Fooles coate eyther we say he is so or else he woulde be so counted If he weare a Hares skutte or a horne we cal him a Hunter If he weare the weede of a regular we cal him by his order Mōke Frier or Hermite If he weare this secular Weede men haue hitherto counted him a secular priest for this was the playne difference amongst thē that their secular priests forth of the Churche shoulde weare this apparaile that you doe and in the Churche at the least they shoulde weare a surples also as you doe The other Sectes had likewise their Sutes some Cattes tayles some graye Amices some Lambeskinnes some white Miniuere some blacke some blew some chaungeable Sarcenet as you haue yet in your Monasteries and Cathedrall Churches The which Fooles hoodes are but a vayne pharisaicall pompe then vttering pride when they shoulde be most farre from pride when they appeare before God in prayers And therefore all these popishe fooleries should be banished from Christs church for Christ our Sauiour if he had thought them decent for his religion woulde haue commaunded them but hee forbiddeth vs suche Pharisaicall shewes and his father will not now be worshipped as the Iewes did then or as the Idolaters haue done at any time And Peter and Paule with all the other Apostles and faithful Ministers of Christ as they were otherwaies known then by garments so needed they no commaundement for garmentes neither gaue they any commaundement for their successors but onely to be known by the careful feeding of Christ his flocke and such other markes as Paule nameth in the sixt chapter of the seconde Epistle to the Corinthians But that proud Pope who is that cursed idoll sheapheard that he might be contrarie to Christ and his in all thinges and that he might haue sure marks and euident knowledge of his trayterous broode in al countreies caused al his sects and sworn souldiers men and women to chaunge their liueries from the Kinges liege people wheresoeuer they dwelt So that no King nor Emperor had any authoritie ouer them in any that tooke this Popish attire vppon their backes they had so many priuiledges and immunities Wherfore if Princes will suffer still those that should be their subiectes to weare such Popish weedes they shall not want Popishe practises of such as delite in their olde Fathers liueries by whome they had so many commodities Bern. If Maister Examinator say true these ministers are worse then the Papists for he calleth them Shrinkers Schismatikes Bellygods Deceauers Flatterers hastening to the secte of Anabaptistes and Libertines little differing from Donatistes Disturbers Factions Scoffers Biters Snappers at Superiours like Pelagians like Andians Rogatians and Circumcellians and smell of the Papistes Mil. What Of the Papistes All is like true Would to God none of your side did more smell of Papistrie nor of the other vices Are they Shrinkers that willingly giue their bodies to the prison rather then they will departe from the simplicitie of Christ his gospel was Paule a Shrinker that would not circumcise Titus for y e false brethren Nay they are Shrinkers that turne back as your men haue done Eleazar was no shrinker that would not eat swines flesh neither the Mother nor the seuen Brethren nor yet Daniell nor yet Moses that would yeeld nothing for commaundement As for Schysmatikes they cannot bee that cleaue so fast to Christe that they will suffer nothing of Antichriste to come vppon their backes and they holde onely of their heade Christe Howe farre they are from Belly gods all that knowe them can witnesse and their deedes do testifie And if you would put of those poisoned popish weedes we would aske none other