Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	spirit_n	witness_n	witness_v	2,015	5	9.4809	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63393	The Quakers rounds, or, A Faithful account of a large discourse between a party of them called Quakers viz. William Fisher and Edward Burroughs, &c with Mr. Philip Taverner, Mr. Richard Goodgroom, and Mr. M. Hall, ministers of the Gospel ... / published by William Taverner, preacher of the Word.	W. F. (William Fisher); Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing T248; ESTC R31011	28,134	41

in opposion to Justification by works according to the law Rom. 4.2.3 And this was before Abraham had ever a Child which will clearely appear if you consult the Scriptures So that Abraham was justified by faith before he went to offer up his son Isaac he was before that act of obedience a justified person therefore not justified hereby but onely declared to be a true beleever his faith was hereby clearely manifest and no more can be drawn from this of the Apostle James if we do seriously weigh ver 18 19 20. and compare what followes with these going before And here ended this confused dispute about Justification in which point it is feared by some that those called Quakers if all of the same mind with E. B. and. W. F. have a Pope in their belly if so I heartily wish the Lord would shew them their errour recover their feet out of the snare and deliver them from the delusion I have since this Dispute met with a Book called A Standard lift up for all People The Author this E. B. there are three passages which I took notice of in it relating to JUSTIFICATION I. PAge 3. Chap. 1. towards the end of the Chapter it is said God Justifieth the Righteous and condemneth the Wicked If by justifying be meant Gods owning approving and accepting the Righteous and that the same God doth not accept but disown the Wicked in their wickedness then is it a Truth of the same stamp with that Psal 5.4 5. But if by justifying be meant that of absolving and acquiting from guilt and condemnation which is that the Apostle so often cals Justification how will it agree with that in Rom. 4.5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly c. II. Page 11. Chap. 8. It is the new man that is justified not the old If by justifying be meant as before Gods owning and accepting with delight so it is true God accepts owns and delights in nothing but the new Creature in us for what is after the will of the flesh or the old man in us is the object of his loathing and shall be destroyed But if by justifying be meant in the second sence an acquitting and absolving the sinner from guilt and condemnation then how can the new man which never sinned be said to be justified vix from sin or to be acquitted from guilt and condemnation which it was never under III. Page 11. Chap. 8. lin 3. And such as are taught by Christ and guided by him in all the wayes of Truth and Righteousness are justified by him and none else not in any word or work whatsoever but in what they are led to fulfil by him What strange contradiction in the two last clauses as if what they are led to fulfil by him were not a work And here again If by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by Christ be only meant a being accepted and owned of God in the thing done It is granted that God accepts of nothing from us but what is the work of his own Spirit and Grace in us but if by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by him be meant that Justification which himself cals lin 11. of this Chapter A being cleared from condemnation in the sight of God What could the Pope himself have spoken more plain for effecting Justification by inherent Righteousness or the work of the Law wrought in us For what can that clause in what they are led to fulfil by him relate to but a conformity to the righteous holy and good Law of God And if this be our Justification to what purpose was the death of Christ For a perfect conformity to the Law of God in our own persons though not wrought in our own strength but in the strength and power of Grace the Spirit working all in us and for us is no other than the Righteousness of the Law And as to this Point ye cannot be ignorant of what the Apostle saith If Righteousness be by the Law then Christ dyed in vain Gal. 2.21 Several other Passages I have taken notice of in in this Book some contradictory others dark and doubtful as to what is the Authors aim in them PAge 4. Chap. 2. And this Christ Jesus the Son of God is the light and life of the World and hath enlightned all mankind every one that cometh into the world is lighted by him with the true light of life or condemnation And page 22. Christ Jesus the second Adam lighteth every man and all mankind that cometh into the World with the true light How do these agree with that Page 25. Chap. 19. Mans state in the first Adam in transgression is a state of perfect enmity against God and Death reigns in every man and he is possessed with blindness ignorance and unbelief c I say how do these agree unless there be granted a general restauration of all men which yet you seem to deny in Page 10. Chap. 6. where you acknowledge some to be in a state unreconciled to God and having no part nor portion in these things which belong to their peace Page 10. lin 1. Many profess them in words what others enjoy of these things but have not felt in themselves the working of the eternal Spirit neither have the witness in themselves of being restored again From this latter clause a twofold question ariseth for your words speak not forth your meaning clearly 1. Whether none are restored again but those that have the witness in themselves Or secondly Whether all are restored but some want the witness of this in themselves which you mean is doubtful Page 10. Chap. 7. in the three last lines This Religion and Worship stands in Christ Jesus the second Adam who hath lighted every man that comes into the World that all men through him might believe c. Hence this question ariseth Whether that light which is in all and every particular man is sufficient without any thing farther of speciall grace superadded to bring up every man to beleeve in Christ unto salvation or to beleeve in God by meanes of Christ 1 Pet. 1.20 Pag. 5. Chap. 3. This is the testimony of the Spirit of God and it leadeth into all truth and out of all evill all that are guided by it and it is given to be the guide and rule of life to the Children of God Whence this question for in these things he speakes darkely and doubtfully Whether the Spirit is so given to be the guide and rule of life to the Saints that they have no more need to attend upon the Scriptures Chap. 19. After many other things it follows pag. 28. towards the end And the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to it unto which I do onely commend my self and these truths to be witnessed Can these be wittnesses to you and of the truth in you who are as you say Pag. 6. Chap. 4. ignorant of the life power and wisedome of the Creatour to leade guide and preserve them following the counsell of their own heart which is evill altogether c. or can such judge between light and darkness between truth and falsehood who are possessed with blindness igorance and unbeleife and wholly imperfect to receive the things of Gods kingdom or to act any thing for God acceptable to him pag. 25. Chap. 19. Pag. 17. Chap. 13. It is truely said That the word of God was in the heart and mouth of the servant of God and that from it they spake forth the Scriptures and then followes As they were moved by the holy ghost through the eternal Spirit Do you make the Holy Ghost and eternall Spirit two or what do you mean by Holy Ghost it is indeed a usuall word among us though there be little to bear up the use of it more then long custome but by Holy Ghost we mean the holy and eternall Spirit what you mean wants an interpreter to find out and make known who seeme to make them two because you say by the holy Ghost through the eternall Spirit Pag. 10. Chap. 7. This is true religion c. where is given forth the same description of true Religion for substance with that of the Apostle James 1.26.27 and towards the end of the page it is said This is acceptable and well pleasing to God above all words and outward conformity and set times and dayes and observances c. This is subscribed to as honest and true and yet may a snake lie in this grasse The question therefore offers it self viz. Whether a doing the greater things of the law is acceptable where the lesse are neglected when it is said I will have mery not sacrifice or mercy rather then sacrifice which is the meaning God did not so require mercy as wholly to take off from Sacrifice onely hereby is declared that God prefers that before this which is true unto this day God requires to speake the truth and do the truth in all things to do unto all men as a man would be done unto to love God with all our heart and our neghbour as our selves c. But hence will not follow an abolition of all institute Worship consisting in the use of such Ordinances which Christ hath appointed and which were in use among the Saints in the primitive times God indeed prefers the former before this but stil requires us to mind according to that of Christ These things ye ought to have done and not to leave the other undone FINIS

wicked men spake P. T. The Scripture consists of two parts An Historical and a Doctrinall part The former is a true record of severall things spoken and done by severall persons and upon severall occasions and here we grant that there are some things recorded which are in themselves false The Pharisees spake concerning Christ say we not well thou art a Samaritan and hast a Devil the thing as spoken by the Pharisees was false blasphemy against the Son of God and we also meet with many things left upon record in the Scriptures which the Devill and wicked men spake falsely but then we must distinguish between the thing related and the relation of it the relation is true though the thing as spoken by the Devill and wicked men is false the Scripture doth truly relate some things which were falsely seoken And concerning the Doctrinall part of the Scripture It is a true record of divine Truth concerning things to be beleeved and done having its rise from the pure Fountain the Spirit of truth E. B. We say and grant the same P. T. Where then lyes the difference Will. Fisher He was one of them called Quakers we all hear themselves acknowledge the Scriptures a declaration of falsehood as well as of truth and how then can this be the word of God P. T. Friend do not mistake nor goe about to pervert my words I distinguished the Scriptures into an Historical and doctrinal part And concerning the former I doe not say it is a false Declaration although some things declared therein are false The Scripture is a true Declaration of whatsoever it Declares and nothing of falsehood can be charged upon it it truly Declares those false things which some wicked ones spake the falsehood is theirs who spake it not the Scripture that relates it some of the Devils words which he upon severall accasions spake are there related but no where through the whole Scriptures are any of the Devils Doctrins taught but every where declared against and farther those falsehoods and blasphemies which the Devill and many wicked men spake which are there recorded are not the greatest part of what is written but that which is upon accasion here and there mentioned and the mentioning of these things is for our benefit and advantage that knowing what a one the Devill is we might more carefully watch against his wiles and take heed of associating our selves with such who are Children like this their Father least they prove a snare to us And concerning the Doctrinall part of Scripture you heard me call it a true record of divine Truth it is truth both in the declaration and in the thing declared and here I shall adde farther First That these Scriptures are no other then the language of the Spirit of truth which spake in those holy men of God who were the Pen-men thereof Secondly It is the same Spirit which dwels and speaks in the Saints now with that which dwelt and spake in the Saints in former dayes Thirdly The Spirit is so one and ever the same with it self that it never contradicts or speaks things contrary to it self E. B. we grant all this and say the same P. T. Then so farre we are one And from this grant we may adde though it was not then hinted that what soever Spirit brings any other or teaches contrary Doctrin to what was preached by Christ the Prophets and Apostles and left upon record in the holy Scriptures for our learning is not of God but of the Devil not the Spirit of Christ but of delusion in what garbe soever it comes E. B. I say no more then what the Scripture it self sayes viz. it is a Diclaration of things that were beleeved Luke 1.1 For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a Declaration of those things which are most surely beleeved among as ye see here it is called a Declaration of things that were beleeved this is Scripture language a Declaration of things which were beleeved P. T. You own it a Declaration of things that were beleeved in former dayes but do you own it a Declaration of things that are to be beleeved by us in this our day things that we are to beleeve E. B. Yea which we are to beleeve but still I say and I pray all take notice I say the Scripture is not the Word of God but a Declaration the Scripture is but writing and it is not the writing which is ihe Word but the thing written of P. T. Since ye are so shy of calling the Scriptures the word of God will ye own them the words of God the words of the Spirit of truth which spake in those servants of God who were the Pen-men thereof nothing was answered directly to this but a multitude of words heaped up together about a Diclaration of and the thing written of of many words but little matter why they should be so shy of calling them at least the words of God I cannot say unless they were afraid least such a grant should have made us too neare together For Christ useth both expressions John 5.24 Verely verely I say unto you he that heareth my word c. Chap. 8.31 If ye continue in my Word c. And in Mark 8.38 whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my word before this adulterous and sinfull generation c. John 8.47 He that is of God heareth Gods words John 15.7 If ye abide in me and my words abide in you c. and Iohn 14.23 where by word and words is meant one and the same thing viz. That Doctrine of divine and heavenly truth which was preached by Christ and afterwards by his Apostles the Spirit teaching them all things and bringing all things to their rememberance whatsoever Christ had said unto them John 14.26 this divine and heavenly Doctrin which was preached by Christ and his Apostles and afterwards delivered in writing and left upon record to this day in the Scriptures we call the Word or Words of God E. B. The thing written of I call the Word of God but not the Scripture which is no other then meer writing P. T. We distinguish betweene the writing and the thing written it is not the writing as it is meer inke and paper but the thing written which we own the Word of God W. F. Let us then at last se wherein we agree and wherein we differ we say Christ is the Word of God so say they we say the Scriptures are they which testifie of Christ so say they we say the Scripture is a Declaration of things to be beleeved so say they we say the writing is not the word of God so say they P. T. We say that Christ is the essential word and the Scriptures the Declarative Word of God not the meer writing but the thing written that divine and heavenly Doctrin which is contained in these writings is the pure word of truth given in by

the Spirit unto those who were the Penmen of the Scriptures and remaines unto us unto this day a rule in the letter concerning things to be beleeved and practiced by us E. B. I say the Scriptures Declare the Word of God and therefore are not the Word for that which declares and that which is Declared are not one and the same thing but two P. T. You have heard the distinction which is a full answer to this but do you not grant that that heavenly Doctrin which is there Declared is truth E. B. Yea I grant it P. T. And that those holy men of God who writ the Scriptures did both speak and write as they were moved by the holy Spirit E. B. Yea I say so also P. T. And that those things there declared and given forth in writing are things to be beleeved and practiced by us in these our dayes as well as by those in whose generation they were written E. B. I grant all this P. T. Then you say in effect the same and no other then what we do viz. that the Scriptures are the Declarative Word of God and consequently the wide difference as it seems betweene us concerning the Scriptures being the Word of God is rather in words and expressions then in matter and substance R. G. What they grant doth not yet satisfie us for they acknowledge the Scriptures onely a Declaration and deny it to be the Word but I say further and will prove it that the Scriptures are the Word of God W. F. The letter of the Scriptures R. G. Yea the Letter W. F. Mark that Collonel speaking to Collonel Bisco who was there present he sayes he will prove the letter to be the Word R. G. I say the Letter by a Figure Before the argument was laid down one of them called Quakers whose name I know not produced that text of the Apostle 2 Cor. 3.6 calling out to the People to hearken to the form of wholesome words who also hath made us able Ministers of the new Testament not of the Letter but of the Spirit for the Letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life W. F. The Apostle was a Minister of the word and Gospel of Christ and he sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit but thou sayest the Letter is the Word of God and wilt undertake to prove it wilt thou then contradict the Apostle and prove him a Minister of the Letter when himself sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit R. G. You wrest the Apostles words who doth not there speak of or meane the Letter of the Scriptures but the difference between the legall and Gospel Ministration W. F. But thou saidst that thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God R. G. I said I would prove the Scriptures to be the Word of God which I am ready to do but ye are so full of words that ye will hear none but your selves nor give me leave to speak W. F. Well we will hear thee R. G. I lay it down in this argument That which Christ and his Apostles owned to be the word of God is indeed and in-truth the Word of God and ought to be so owned by us But Christ and his Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God Ergo The assumption or minor Proposition R. G. proved by two texts of Scripture the first concerning Christs owning the Scriptures to be the Word of God I doe not well remember but in stead of that take another Mark 7.13 Making the word of God of none authority by your tradition which ye have ordained c. The Lord Christ in the former part of the Chap reproves the hypocrisie of the Pharisees and tels them vers 8. For ye lay aside the Commands of God and observe the traditions of men The 10th verse makes it evident that by the Commands of God which they rejected Christ means the law given from God to the people of Israel by the hand of Moses which was a written Law and the same which he calls the Commands of God ver 8 9. he calls the word of God vers 13. making the word of God of none effect or of none authority by your traditions c. it relates to the Law given by Moses and more particularly to the fifth Commandement Honour thy Father and thy Mother c. which was one of the ten and written by the same hand as the rest were whence clearly appears that Christ owned and called the written Law the Word of God R. G. And that the Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God will appear by comparing that text 1 Thess 2.13 with some others For this cause also we thank God without ceasing that when ye received the Word of God which ye heard of us ye received it not as the Word of man but as it is indeed the Word of God You see in this text that what the Apostle preached and these Thessalonians received was indeed the word of God Now that which the Apostle preached was no other than what had been long before spoken and written by Moses and the Prophets For proof of this ye may consult Act. 26.22 and 28.23 whence appears that what was written by Moses and the Prophets was owned by the Apostle as the Word of God W. F. Thou speakest now of that which is written but didst undertake and saidst thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God P. T. He said by a Figure W. F. Thou saidst the Letter R. G. You cannot conceive since I speak of a Figure that my meaning was the meer writing but by Letter and Scripture I meant the thing conteining for the thing conteined the writing for the thing written E. B. Well I will answer thee The Apostle preached the Gospell and this we grant is the word and power of God to salvation unto every one that beleeveth the Gospell is the word and power of God but not the Scriptures and it is the Gospel which the Apostle preached and which the Thessalonians received not as the word of man but as it was indeed the word of God the Gospel is the Word of God the Scriptures are not P. T. There is a twofold coming of the Gospel viz. in word and secondly in power 1 Thes 1.5 and it is the same the very same Gospel of Christ in the hand of both Ministrations the same Gospel of Christ when it comes in word and Letter as when it comes in Spirit and Power Again the Apostle writ the same which he preached he did not preach one thing and write another but the same Gospel and word of truth which he preached the same he writ if that therefore which he preached was not the word of man but indeed the word of God then that which he writ was also not the word of man but truly indeed the word of God Let us here ad another text though not then

what the Scripture affirms He that doth righteousness is righteous even as he is righteous 1 Iohn 3.7 R. G. He that doth righteousness is righteous as he viz. Christ is righteous in likeness but not in measure Christ was perfectly righteous and without sin but the most righteous among the sons of men have yet imperfection and sin in them W. F. Hearken to the form of wholesome words Blessed are the undefiled in the way who walk in the law of the Lord blessed are they that keep his testimonies and that seek him with the whole heart they also do no iniquity they walk in his wayes Psal 119.1 2 3. they do no iniquity therefore perfect and do not commit sin R. G. They do no iniquity allowedly as owning and approving the wayes of unrighteousness they follow not the course of the wicked who commit all uncleanness with greediness nor lie in wickedness as the rest of the world yet are they not perfect without sin but find oft-times cause to complain with the Apostle what I would that I do not but what I hate that do I Rom. 7.15 E. B. That there have been such who were perfect without sin appeares from that testimony which Christ gave of Nathaniel Behold a true Isrealite in whom is no guile Iohn 1.47 in whom is no guile therefore a man in whom was no sin R. G. It will not follow that he was wholly without sin because a man in whom was no guile These words of Christ prove him to be no hypocrite but a plain upright hearted Isrealite yet do not grant him a perfect man without all sin E. B. It is said in whom is no guile and if no guile were found in him then he was perfect P. T. He was perfect with that perfection which is called sincerity and upright-heartedness but not perfect according to that two-fold perfection in either part of it which we spake of in the beginning And here one of the company attempting to prove that Nathaniel sinned after this accounting him one of that number spoken of Mat. 26.56 Then all the Disciples forsook him and fled W. F. asked if Nathaniel were one of the twelve it was answered in hast yea one of the twelve and although presently corrected by saying he was one of the Disciples and followers of Christ yet here W. F. catched at that word one of the twelve made a great stirre about this slip of the tongue saying Thou hast been reasoning and standing out all this day against God and his truth and God hath now left thee to thy self to shew thy own nakedness with more of the like sort clearely manifesting to what I was able to judge a great Spirit of selfishness and bewraying much imperfection while he contended for perfection P. T. You will make a man an offender for a word while your selves are found in the same guilt who affirme that it was meant of the twelve when it is said then all the Disciples forsook him and fled whereas Judas one of the twelve had before this forsaken and gone away from Christ being now one of those who came with that great multitude to take him so that there were but eleven of whom it is said then all the Disciples viz. the eleven that were with him forsook him and fled and so this proof came to nothing though I beleeve it is more then they can prove that there were no more then meerly the eleven with Christ at that time when he was taken by those that came along with Judas but I will trouble the reader no farther with this E. B. We read of a hundred forty and foure thousand who stood with the Lambe upon mount Sion Rev. 14.1 and of these it is said ver 5. In their mouth was found no guile for they were without fault before the throne of God If without fault then perfect and without sin R. G. These were without guile as not being hypocrites but sincere and upright-hearted towards God and their perfection as to a being faultless before the throne of God is to be understood in point of Justification not Sanctification all truly beleeving in Christ are perfectly Justified though not perfectly Sanctified in this life E. B. I will prove it yet further from that of the Apostle As he is so are we in this world 1 Iohn 4.17 If as Christ is so are we who then can deny but we are perfect without sin for so was Christ P. T. Shall this Text decide the Controversie at lest will you hear some other speak beside your self E. B. I will yet ad a further proof from that 1 John 3.9 He that is born of God sinneth not What can be spoken more plain P. T. Have you yet done that I may have leave at last to speak a word E. B. We will hear thee P. T. I shall then begin with your last Text He that is born of God sinneth not we find in the same Chapt. vers 8. He that commits sin is of the Devil and between these two is a wide difference 1. He that is born of God sinneth not after the same rate as those who are of the Devil he chuses not the way of sin nor yields up himself a servant to unrighteousness There is a Law in his members rebelling yet can say with the Apostle I delight in the Law of God after the inward man Rom. 7.22 His fals are weakness not wilfulness which is true of every Christian while he is as we may say truly himself and not under a temptation David in the matter of Vriah ran very far yea sinned presumtuously and wilfully and with premeditation but it was at this time an hour of darkness upon him he was now under temptation and therefore acts not like a child of God as at other times A Christian while under a cloud of temptation is not indeed himself neither can we at such a time judge of him or his estate 2. He sins not that sin which is unto death spoken of Chap. 5.16 Christ cals it blasphemy against the holy Spirit which shall never have forgiveness Mark 3.29 He that is born of God sinneth not this sin but as the Apostle speaks vers 18. He that is begotten of God keepeth himself and that wicked one toucheth him not 3. Which I conceive is more directly the meaning of the Apostle in this Text He that is born of God sinneth not that is so far as born of God that which is born of God or the new creature in him doth not sin so far as he is acted by the pure principle of light and life in him the Spirit of truth received he doth not commit sin the Spirit leads forth to nothing but what is righteous and good the flesh to nothing but what is evil and sinful Rom. 7.17 18. To your former Text As he is viz. Christ so are we in this world I answer it cannot be understood in the full latitude of it that as Christ is so are we