Popes owne Secretary and you doe it either to no purpose or else to insinuate that therfore hee was more knowing in the truth of the story or the more faithfull historian or both For the former it had indeed beene likely if hee had beene Secretary to the Pope vnder whom this Councell assembled as any one would thinke you meant when you added this note in such a weighty parenthesis But certaine it is that Platina was borne many yeares after the celebration of this Councell and died in the yeare 1481. which was aboue 260. yeares after this Councell as saith Trithemius de scriptorib Eccles as hee is cited in the workes of Platina the page before the Epistle This therfore is but a deceiptfull insinuation of yours Or if you did not say this with intent to deceiue others but were your selfe deceiued surely your care to informe your selfe well before you write is very small Besides if it were true that hee had beene the Popes owne Secretary as for greater emphasis you expresse it yet his authority cannot counterpoyse the authority of all that are of a contrary mind to that you thinke Platina was of whom I shall by and by produce And lastly Platina doth not affirme to the preiudice of this Councell that which you erroneously imagine hee doth as I shall presently shew As for his faithfullnesse I doe not thinke you will make his being the Popes owne Secretary an argument therof men of your coate are not such honourers of the Pope Now for the words themselues of Platina you misvnderstand them for you apply those words nec decerni tamen quicquam aperte potuit generally to the whole businesse of the Councell whereas the intent of them at the most is but particular concerning the Holy Land as the fore-going words doe shew which are these At Pontifex vbi videret Saracenorum potentiam in Asia concrescere apud Lateranum maximum Concilium celebrat Venere multa tum quidem in consultationem nec decerni tamen quicquam apertè potuit quod Pisani Genuenses maritimo Cisalpini terrestri bello interse certabant These words then nec decerni tamen quicquam apertè potuit are at the most to bee referred to the buisinesse of the Holy Land of sending ayde thither and making resistance against the Turkes in Asia and to nothing else And the reason why nothing could bee decreed in that matter was the warres hee mentions which could not bee a hindrance from their making of other Canons in that Councell And as it is apparent enough that this at most was the meà ning of Platina to wit that nothing was decreed concerning the Holy warre and that therfore this place makes nothing to your purpose who hereby would make voyde all the Canons of this Councell soe it is also apparent that Platina if soe much was his meaning was deceiued euen in that and that there was something decreed concerning the sending of assistance to the Holy Land as appeareth by the decree of the Expedition which is at the end of the Canons whose truth I shall further proue by and by Yea and that Platina did not soe much as deny the decree of the Expedition in his words nec decerni quicquam apertè potuit is very probable for then hee would rather haue said nec decerni quicquam potuit absolutely but his qualisication of it by the word apertè seemes to grant that something was done though not apertè And that something was decreed is manifest by that which I shall say hereafter what then hee meanes by these words nec apertè in that which was decreed is not manifest Perhaps by Decree hee meanes the execution of the Decree in actuall warring against the Turkes wherein there was nothing openly done whatsoeuer might bee secretly done rending to their preiudice If this bee his meaning as no other can bee with truth in the thing then though his words bee obscure and improper to signifie thus much yet his meaning is true but nothing to your purpose But Nauclerus doth open this obscurity and makes it cleere against you for hee speaking of the same buisinesse and vsing the same words with Platina in the rest insteed of Platina's apertè hee saith aptè b Vel. 2. p. 914. nec decerni tamen quicquam aptè potuit quod Pisani Genuenses c. There could nothing bee fitly conueniently and to the purpose decreed in regard of the tyme because of the warres in Europe And immediatly after hee saith to confute that which you say that there was nothing done heere Editae tamen nonnullae constitutiones referuntur but there are diuers constitutions declared to bee made As for Matthew Paris his Historia minor I cannot meet with it and in the volume of his whole workes both maior and minor set forth lately by Dr Wats of London I can finde no such words as you cite And if you had beene willing that your quotation should haue beene examined you would haue giuen a man a neerer ayme than a whole history whether maior or minor to finde it in especially in a quotation so important to your mayne designe vnlesse you meant to giue a man more trouble than is faire in one that writes a controuersie The like you haue also done in some of your following authorities But if these words Et cum nihil geri in tanto negotio cernerent which are all that concerne your purpose bee to bee found in him hee speakes of the same expedition of the Holy Land and of the execution therof not of the Decree it selfe as the word geri will aswell beare in its signification and if hee meāt otherwise hee had no good intelligence in the buisinesse as I shall presently proue for though hee liued in the same time of this Councell yet hee liued in a farre distāt place And his words in tāto negotio doe surely poynt at some one particular matter which though it haue beene the occasion of calling many Councells yet when the Prelats were met they discussed and decreed many other things for the good of the Church Soe that though it bee true that nothing was executed in the great businesse of the Holy warres by reasō of the warres in christēdome yet it is farre frō prouing that which you soe boldly affirme that neither the Decree of the expedition for the Holy Land nor any one Canon was made in this Councell They met say you but did nothing nor haue you I am sure done any thing against them And that you may further see the integrity of this your Author in matters concerning the person of this Pope which is the purport of all the other words by you all eadged out of him reade c Baronius in his last tome anno 1197. who telleth vs that this Matthew Paris seemeth to haue writ his history of purpose to take occasion to sclander the Popes and then reciting a story concludeth thus Vidisti Lector Paris ingenium
OCCASIONALL DISCOVRSES 1. Of Worship and prayer to Angells and Saints 2. Of Purgatorie 3. Of the Popes Supremacie 4. Of the succession of the Church Had with Doctor Cosens by word of mouth or by writing from him By THOMAS CARRE Confessour of the English Nunnerie at Paris AS ALSO An answer to a libell written by the said Doctor Cosens against the great Generall Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius the third in the yeere of our Lord 1215. By THOMAS VANE Doctor in Diuinity of Cambridge Printed at PARIS Anno Dom. 1646. With Permission Approbation A LETTER TO A Gentleman at S. Germains HONORED SIR As by many other iust titles so I am yours by this in particular of the last of Octob. for that you haue bene pleased thereby to signifie what passes at S. Germains and that you so truly resent the wrong which is done to Truth in the proclaiming of victories especially by such as you expresse it as are not guiltie of too much vnderstanding gayned by the Lord of London-Derrie D. Cosens and who not ouer all the Papist Priests they meete withall bearing all downe before them as they please to tearme it Sir I am easily persuaded to beleeue that the bruiters of such vntruths were not verie vnderstanding indeed and that they spake accordingly For I my selfe am witnesse that the Lord of London-Derrie honestly and fairely denyed that there were any such reports occasioned by him or that indeed there was any such cause and I am much mistaken if D. Cosens be found so little ingenuous as to abett so absolute an vntruth For sure he mett with none weaker then my selfe and yet to speake sparingly he bore no aduantage away as I hope this scātling Of prayers to Angels which I haue vnder his owne hād some other occasionall discourses which he will not deny will partly make good At least I most willingly leaue it to the indifferent reader to iudge of the Lion ex illo vngue rather then to haue Truth suffer through my silence where my weake endeauours might be able to contribute any thing to its libertie and luster Certainly my labour therein was not so much to answer difficulties as to discouer corruptions mistakings of and violence made against the Authours genuine sense which being once discouered the former seeming difficulties vanished of themselues Sir if you doe me that right which I easily promise my selfe from your friēdship yea euen your iustice as to conceiue I vse candor herein and speake but a measured truth you will admire with me how this could be made a subiect of triumph and glorie Thus farre to my friend then Now to euery courteous Reader I haue this humble suite to make that while he heares corruptions mistakings of and violēces made against the genuine sense of the Authours he permit not his iudgement to be forestalled with a preiudicate opinion that these words are but the effects of passion but cōtrarily that without passion or preoccupation he would haue patience to reade and iudge and if he finde thē not reall truthes no false aspersiōs let me passe for an impostour But if truthes indeede let truth be published vindicated and knowen let mē be our friends but let Truth be incomparably more our friend let the Fathers be heard speaking their owne sense without force that streames of honie may be conuayed from them into the hearts of the vnlearned not straynes of poyson And let such as vse violence against it know that Truth for a tyme may be clouded but cannot be ouercome That iniquitie for a tyme may flourish but cannot be permanent Finally that no victorie is more glorious then to be subdued by Truth Superet igitur Veritas volentem nam inuitum ipsa superabit The ensuing discourse of Prayer to Angels c. I purposed fairely and friēdly to haue examined betwixt Mr. Cos and me and therefore I addressed it to himselfe in the tearmes following APPROBATIO PErlegimus nos infra scripti in sacrâ Theologiae facultate Parisiensi Magistri duos hosce tractatus Anglicano scriptos idiomate quorum titulus est Occasionall discourses of worship prayer to Angels and Saints c. had with D. Cosens by word of mouth or by writing from him by THOMAS CARRE Confessour of the English Nunnerie at Paris As also an Answer to a libell written by the said D. Cosens against the great Generall Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius the third Anno Domini 1215. by THOMAS VANE c. quibus fidei Catholicae elucescit veritas hominis haeretici deteguntur imposturae cuius in hac parte an praeualeat inscitia an audacia haud facile est iudicare Hos itaque tractatus vtiliter posse typis mandari in bonum scilicet tùm fidei tùm pietatis Christianae nostris hîc testamur chirographis Datum Parisiis 4. Maij 1646. H. HOLDEN IAC DVLAEVS The same in English VVEe whose names are vnderwrittē Doctors in Diuinity of the sacred faculty of Paris haue perused these two treatises written in the English tongue entituled Occasionall Discourses of worship prayer to Angels Saints c. had with D. Cosens by word of mouth or by writing frō him by THOMAS CARRE Confessour of the English Nunnery at Paris As also an answer to a libell written by the said D. Cosens against the great Generall Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius the third An. Dom. 1215. by THOMAS VANE c. wherein as well the trueth of Catholique beliefe is mainely illustrated as the cosening wiles of an hereticall man are plainely discouered whose whether ignorance or boldnesse be more preualent in this behalfe is hard to iudge Wherefore wee testifie by these our hand-writings that the said treatises may profitably be giuen to the Presse for the furtherance of Christian faith piety Giuen at Paris this 4. day of May in the yeere of our Lord 1646. H. HOLDEN I. DVLEE NOBLE Sr. After a sincere protestation that I as much loue and honour your person as I hate what Catholike beleife oblidges me to iudge errour in you let me vse freedome without offence to tell you in all Christian Charitie that of 14. obiections which you haue made out of the holy Fathers against worship and prayer to Angels and Saints There are sixe corrupted the words or sentences most important and euen decisiue of the controuersie being absolutely left out though they were in the verie midst of the passages cited or immediatly following as 1. That of the Councell of Laodicea 2. That of S. Augustine Conf. 10. c. 42. 3. That of the same Saint contra epist Parmeniani 4. That of Irenaeus 5. That of S. Ambrose 6. That of S. Bede Fiue either forced to speake against themselues or els nothing at al for you as 1. That of Theodoret twice 2. That of Origene against Celsus 3. That of Athanasius 4. That of Epiphanius And finally three brought in for witnesses which speake not of the worship or prayer to
obserued where he exclaimes against that pompous title of vniuersall saying It is euident to all who know the Gospell that the care of the whole Church is committed by our Lords voyce to S. Peter the Apostle the Prince of all the Apostles for to him it was said Peter doest thou loue me feede my sheepe c. beholde he receiues the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the power of binding ad loosing is giuen to him the care and principalitie principatus soueraigntie or dominion of the whole Church is committed to him and yet he is not called vniuersall Apostle OBSERVATION Receiue from saint Gregories owne mouth then that the Sea Apostolique is the head of all the Churches That all Bishops found in fault are subiect to it That Peter was placed ouer all the Churches That the Roman Church is the head of all the Churches That it is knowne to all that know the Gospell that the Care of the whole Church is committed by our Lord himselfe to Peter the Prince of all the Apostles and that yet he is not called vniuersall Apostle What other thing is this I pray then to crye out with a lowde voyce and to make open demonstration to all the world that while he exclaymes against the title of vniuersall Bishop he refuses not the headship of all the Churches but professeth to haue iurisdiction and superintendencie ouer all the other Bishops Archbishops and Patriarkes as doth partly appeare by what I haue alreadie cited out of him and more fully shall yet appeare in my ensuing discourse THE II. TITLE WHEREBY saint Gregorie makes good the supremacie is The exercice of such power all ouer the Christian world FIRST ouer the Bishops of Europe l. 12. Ep. 15. to s. Aug. in particular ouer the Bishops of England Let the Bishop of Yorke order 12. Bishops and enioy the honour of a Metropolitane but let all the Bishops of England be subiect to thy brotherhood Secondly l. 7. Ep. 112. ouer the Bishops of France Granting the vse of the Pall to the Bishop of Auston he saith And withall we perceiued we were to grant that the Church of the cittie of Auston should be after the Church of Lions and to challenge to it selfe this place and rancke by the fauour indulgentia of our Authoritie Thirdly ouer the Bishops of Spayne saying Let him who presumed while the innocent Bishop was yet aliue to be ordered in his Church against the Canons being depriued of priesthood be cast out of all Church-ministerie and withall let him be kept in safe custodie or els be sent vnto vs. Let the Bishops who ordered him being depriued of the Communion of the body and bloud of our Lord for the space of six monthes be appointed to doe pennance in a Monasterie Fourthly l. 7. Ep. 32. Ouer the Bishops of Africa In particular thus to the Bishop of Carthage By louing the Sea Apostolique you baue recourse to the source of your office or dignitie knowing whence priestly ordination had its beginning in Africa Againe l. 10. Ep. 2. Writing to Columbus a Bishop of Numidie c. he saith You are diligently to examine all the contents of his Petition to witt Donadeus Deacon degraded by Victor a Bishop of Numidie and if his complaint be accompanied with truth let canonicall rigour be vsed against his Bishop Victor Fiftly l. 2. Ep. 6. Ouer the Bishops of Greece In particular ouer Iohn Bishop of Iustiniana prima in these words As for the present hauing first disannulled and made of no effect the Decrees of thy sentence we decree by the authoritie of Blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles that for thirtie dayes space thou shalt be depriued of the holy Communion that with verie great pennance and teares thou mayst preuayle with Almightie God to pardon thy so great an excesse And if we shall come to perceiue that thou doest coldly performe our sentence know that then not barely thy iniustice but the contumacie also of thy brotherhood shall be more seuerely punished Againe l. 5. Ep. 7. Writing to the Bishops of Epirus he saith Know that we haue sent a Pall to Andrew our brother and fellow-Bishop and haue graunted or confirmed him all the priuiledges which our predecessours conferred vpon his Againe Writing to Iohn Bishop of Corinth l. 4. Ep. 51. touching Secūdinus a Bishop whom he had deputed to examine and depose one Anastasius Bishop quam causam ei examinandam iniunximus he saith And because in that sentence whereby it is euident that the fore named Anastasius was iustly condemned and deposed our fore-mentioned brother and fellow Bishop so punished certaine persons that he reserued them to our arbitrimēet And a litle after speaking of another we pardō him this fault and we appoint that he should be receiued in his rancke and place Againe We will haue them to witt Euphemius and Thomas to remayne deposed as they are and we decree that they shall neuer more be receiued into holy orders vnder what pretext of excuse soeuer Sixtly l. 5. Ep. 14. Writing to Marinianus Bishop of Rauenna vpō the difference which was betweene his Church and Claudius the Abbot he saith And doe not you your selfe know that in the cause which was agitated by Iohn Priest against Iohn of Constantinople our brother and fellow Bishop recourse was made to the Sea Apostolique following the Canons and the cause was ended definita by our Sentence And thence saint Gregorie frames an argument a fortiori in these words which immediatly follow If therfore the cause be deuolued to our knowledge euen from the Cittie where the Prince to witt the Emperour resides how much more is the busines which is against you to be determined or iudged here the trueth being knowne The like speeches bearing a face of authoritie with them are all his Epistles so full of as may with ease be seene in Dr. Sander's visible Monarchie that who would take the paines could hardly light vpon an Epistle where he should not meete with thē If he should looke vpon the 11. booke and 10. Epistle he would finde him instile the kings his sonnes saying according to the writing of our sonnes the most excellent kings c. And in the end of the same Ep. And we command that all these things shall be obserued for euer which are contayned in this our Decree as well by thy selfe he speakes to a certaine Abbot as by all those who shall succeede in thy place and rancke or whom it may otherwise concerne And if any king Priest Iudge or secular person hauing knowledge of this our Constitution shall offer to oppose it let him be depriued of his honour and dignitie and acknowledge that he stands guiltie of the iniquitie committed in the sight of the diuine iudgement And vnlesse he doe either restore the things which he wickedly tooke away or expiate his iniquitie with the teares of worthy repentance let him be kept from the most sacred body
the Councell of Nice and not otherwise being acquainted with the Councell of Sardis saue onely whith a spurious one made neere Sardis by the Arrians as S. Aug. giues testimonie and fauoured by the Donatists And on the other side being wearied out with frequent costly and disorderly appeales as in the present with that of Apiarius a simple priest for the second tyme were willing doubtlesse to haue lighted vpon some lawfull redresse in that behalfe yet marke I beseech you with what humilitie and respect to the Sea of Rome it is sought for They sue they supplicate they protest in the interim to obserue what was enjoyned them by the Popes Legates which certainly they had had no reason to doe had they apprehended no authoritie in the Pope to command We professe saith Alypius Bishop of Tagaste that we are willing to obserue what is established in the Councell of Nice In the 6. Councell of Carthage and a little after but we finde it not as our brother Faustinus brought it And therevpon he applyes himselfe to Aurelius Bishop of Carthage that the Acts of the Councell of Nice should be sent for into Greece that all ambiguitie might be remoued saith he and concludes Howbeit We professe as I said before that in the meane while we will obserue these things till the entire Coppies exemplaria concilij Niceni shall come With which the Popes Legate Faustinus was so fully satisfied that he pronounced vpoÌ„ it Nor doth your sanctitie fore-iudge or doe a preiudice to the Church of Rome c. in that our brother and fellow-Bishop Alypius daigned to say the Canons were doubtfull but onely please to write these verie things to our holy and most Blessed Pope c. To which Aurelius Archb. of Carth. replyed Besides these things which we haue promised in the Acts we must of necessitie withall most fully intimate by the letters of our Townes euery thing we treate of to our holy brother and fellow Priest Boniface Which the whole Councell seconded with Placet And we professe adds Aug. Bishop of Hippon we will obserue this sauing a more diligent inquisition about the Councell of Nice Finally the whole Councell resolues to expect the Actes of the Councell of Nice authenticated vnder the three Patriarches hands whereby say they the chapters which are contayned in the present instructions commonitorio of Faustinus c. being there found shall be strengthened by vs or not being found shall be more fully handled in a subsequent Synode collected to that effect Let now indifferent persons iudge what could euer be spoken with more submission and indifferencie and lesse entrench vpon the Popes knowen authoritie which euen by this their proceeding clearely discouers it selfe and shines as it were through this seeming miste of the Africane opposition Otherwise 1. In Ep ad Celâ—st Gone Afric c. 15. Why is a Councell expressely called in obedience to Pope Celestine 2. And why doth the same Pope giue this honorable testimonie of S. Aug. who was one of the cheife supposed Antiappellants that for his life and merits they alwayes had him in their communion and that he was neuer touhed with so much as a rumour of any sinister suspition 3. Why did the same S. August in cause of an Appeale made by Bishop Anthonie of Fussal to Pope Celestine haue free recourse to him as to caompetent Iudge instructing and commending the cause vnto him acknowledging that some for certaine faults the verie Sea Apostolike as he saith ep 261. iudging or confirming the iudgements or sentences of others were neither depriued of Episcopall dignitie nor yet left altogether vnpunished desiring him to command all the things directed to him to wit the Processe to be read before c. It was neither for want of witt vertue nor learning sure for in that qualitie what Pope might not rather haue had recourse to him 4. Why is Faustinus admitted into their Councell and permitted to propose the Popes pleasure which they promise to obserue till farther inquirie be made in a matter ministring iust cause of doubt 5. Why is Apiarius a turbulent and wicked priest in vertue of the Popes release by prouision as it is called and by his order admitted to a second hearing in Afrike after he had bene twice cast out by the votes of the Bishops there 6. Why doth Faustinus himselfe pronounce in the full assembly that by this their proceeding no preiudice was done to the Sea of Rome 7. Why did Aurelius esteeme it a point of necessitie to impart all the particulars of their treatie to Pope Boniface 8. Finally why is it concluded by the vnanimous consent of the whole Councell that if the things which Faustinus had in his instructions be found in the Actes of Nice they will confirme it If not they doe not say they will forthwith cast of obedience to the Church of Rome they will call another Councell and treate the busines more fully But I will yet goe on and say Fourthly put case I would giue what can neuer be proued nay what is contrarie to the knowen truth of the Fact That the Africans opposition had bene against the right of Appeales to Rome not against the maÌ„ner onely and that in maior persons and causes too in a word that what they proposed onely had bene decreed also and that conciliariter too yet how would this conclusion be made good by Mr. C. Ergo the Pope of Rome is not supreame head of the Church Certainely in a Protestant sense it could not sith they affirme that euen Generall Councells c. both may erre and haue somtymes erred in the 21. article of the 39. Ergo a fortiori this of Africa which was but a Prouinciall Councell may haue erred and consequently one should be conuinced of rashnes to conclude any thing out of it especially in matter of faith till mens consciences were assured that though it might yet indeede it did not erre here in which how it should he made good I am not wise enough to guesse Nor yet can it be made an argument ad hominem and conclude against a Catholike for he doth not place the infallibilitie of the Church in the decree of a prouinciall but in the Definition of a Generall Councell Ergo nothing followes hence neither Ergo to be short I will conclude this part with these fewe testimonies of the African Fathers as well before as after this 6. Councell of Carth. in point of the Popes Supremacie omitting a number of most pregnant places out of other Fathers partly for breuities sake and pratly because the Africans are most concerned herein Tertull. l. de Pudicitia c. 1. n. 5. He styles the Pope of Rome the High priest and Bishop of Bishops and tearmes the Church of Rome In Praesc â— 36. n. 212. Happie Church to whom the Apostles powred out all their doctrine together with their bloud S. Cyprian The Primacie or chiefe place rule and authoritie In l de vnitate
in a word which is the very hindge on which the sense is turned and turned contrary to the assured truth thereof and that is the word Ipse he himselfe as if the condemnation of Almericus and the booke of Ioachim had beene the Popes act without the Councell that so you might proue the Councell falsified wherein the sayd acts are recorded to haue passed And then you adde as another saying of Platina or as your construction of the former words of Platina He sayes it was not the Councell of Lateran that made any decrees to condemne them but that Pope Innocent condemned them himselfe But Platina hath neither any such formall words nor are they the meaning of the words he hath for his saying the Pope did condemne them doth not necessarily imply that the Councell of Lateran did not condemne them for it might be done by both either seuerally or together and this latter way it was done as I haue already proued and doe now againe by the testimony of Beluacensis a Beluac l 30 hist cap. 64. who speaking of this Councell saith that the Abbot Ioachim and Almericus were condemned therein So that you are Ipse He himselfe that haue falsified Platina layd vniust obiections against the Councell of Lateran and apertè manifestly condemned your selfe of fowle play by the euidence of the fact For a close to this section you say wee may well conclude that both these and other things de quibus nihil decerni potuit in Concilio were by the Pope set downe in his owne Decretalls out of which he tooke these Canons whoeuer he was that compiled them into the forme of a Councell Your conclusion is like your premisses there is no truth in either of them both you say that both these and other things I suppose you meane all the Canons ascribed to this Councell were set downe by the Pope in his owne Decretalls that is according to your meaning inuented by the Pope and put first into his Decretalls for if they were first decreed in Councell and afterwards put into the Decretalls it is not for your purpose but against you and that it was so I haue already sufficiently proued and doe yet againe by the title of these constitutions as they are set downe in the Decretalls which are not barely ascribed to the Pope as many others are but to him in a generall Councell thus Innocentius tertius in Concilio generali Wee may therefore well conclude that your conclusion built on your extreme corruption of Platina hauing so rotten a foundation must needs fall to the ground Lastly you say that he tooke them out of the Popes owne Decretalls whoeuer he was that compiled the Canons into the forme of a Councell But I haue proued before that he tooke them out of the originall Records of the Councell and if he had taken them out the Popes Decretalls it had bene well enough those Decretalls not being the Popes owne singly as you haue sayd but the Popes and Councells of Lateran together as I haue many wayes proued So that of all that you haue hitherto sayd there is not one word but is either vntrue or impertinent and to vse your owne words de quibus nihil decerni potest Yet as if you had not sayd enough of this nature you goe on to make faults in steed of finding them as you suppose in others C. For the third Canon of this Councell concerning the excommunication of temporall Princes and the Popes power to free their subiects from all obedience to them and to giue away their kingdomes is indeed one of the Extrauagants cap. 13. de Haereticis that is Pope Innocents owne Decree and not the Councells of Lateran vbi nihil decerni potuit So in the 71. Canon concerning the recouery of the Holy Land from the Saracens for which this Councell was chiefly called and met together the compiler hath made the words to run in a Popes stile and not in the stile of a Councell Ad liberandam terram sanctam de manibus impiorum sacro Concilio approbante definimus c. neither in the Councell was there any such Decree made as both Card. Bellarmine against king Iames's Apologie and Eudaemon Cidonius in his Parall Torti Tortur doe confesse out of Platina He therfore that made these two decrees of absoluing subiects from obedience to their Princes and of recouering the land of promise from the Saracens may well be thought to haue made that decree also of Transubstantiation which hath made such a noyse in the world and for which this Councell is so often quoted vnder the name of Maximum omnium Generale celeberrimum Concilium Answer The third Canon of this Councell concerning the excommunication of temporall Princes you say is one of the Extrauagants cap. 13. de Haereticis but you are very Extrauagant in saying so for there is no such matter in the place by you cited nor indeed any such place as you haue here rashly set downe All that is to be found is this that in the fifth booke of the Extrauagants there is a Title de Haereticis vnder which title are only three chapters and in them not a word of this matter And this for the truth of your quotation I will now consider the sense of what you say and the truth thereof The third Canon say you is one of the Extrauagants that is Pope Innocents owne Decree By which it seemes that it is the same thing with you to be one of the Extrauagants and to be Pope Innocēts owne Decree as if the Extrauagāts were Pope Innocēts owne decrees whereas it is apparāt by the titles to whom they are ascribed that not one of them was made by Pope Innocent so mightily are you mistaken in this matter This Decree then is not Pope Innocents owne and not the Councells of Lateran as you say but Pope Innocents owne and the Councells of Lateran his in and with the Councell of Lateran as I haue proued You also cite your selfe for it is to be found in no authour else against the Councell of Lateran saying vbi nihil decerni potuit where nothing could be decreed against which I oppose besides all that I haue sayd before a man of much better authority Albertus Crantzius who saith a Crantz Metrop l. 9. cap. 1. sect Innoc. 3. Concilium maximum congregauit Lateranum ibi multa constituta quae hodie extant in corpore iuris there many things were decreed which are at this day extant in the body of the law Moreouer the sense of this Canon you doe lamely and with change of the tearmes set downe for there is no mention of kings nor kingdomes and then the Popes absoluing of the vassalls of temporall Lords for those are the words of the Canon from their fidelity to them and exposing their land to be occupied by Catholiques exprest to be but in the case of neglect to purge their land of heresy and continuance therein after
of which this is a part and particularly because you heere make a particular obiectioÌ„ against it by Matth. Paris who intimateth so much by repeating a Matth. Paris histma p. 189. the substance of this very Decree in almost as many words as they are in the Councell which are too long to set downe heere Your further say that he that made these two decrees of absoluing subiects from obedience to their Princes and of recouering the land of Promise from the Saracens may well be thought to haue made the decree of Transubstantiation also And you say truth in that but it will not helpe you for Pope Innocent made them all but sacro approbante Concilio that is the whole Councell consisting of the Pope and the rest of the Prelats decreed them Nor haue you reason so to boggle at the word Transubstantiation or at this Councell for the word seeing the thing knew no beginning since our Sauiour as our Catholique bookes doe sufficiently proue and euen the word it selfe was in vse before this Councell as appeareth by Roger Houenden in Henrico 2. where he hath these words b Annul p. 576. Confessi sunt etiam quod Sacerdos noster bonus siue malus iustus vel iniustus corpus sanguinem Christi posset conficere perministerium huiusmodi Sacerdotis virtutem diuinorum verborum quae à Dominoprolata sunt panis vinum in corpus sanguinem Christi verè transubstantiantur Also by Blesensis who was king Henry the second his Chaplayne who saith c Blesens Ep. 140. Et vt gratia exempli in vno Sacramentorum vide as abyssum profundissimam humano sensui imperceptibilem pane vino transubstantiatis virtute verborum caelestium in corpus sanguinem Christi c. Both these wrote in the dayes of Henry the second and the Councell of Lat. was held in the dayes of king Iohn who raigned the second after him And in both these good English authors doe wee finde the word transubstantiated applyed to the bread wine chaÌ„ged into the body bloud of Christ nor doe wee finde in any story that these men were questioned for the vse of these words as if they did import any thing more in their sense than that which was the generall beliefe of that and the foregoing ages It is not therfore the Decree of transubstantiation made in this Councell afterwards which hath made such a noyse in the world as you say it hath but the heretiques and Schismatiques that haue opposed it Nor was this CouÌ„cell for this decrees sake called MaximuÌ„ omniuÌ„ generale celeberrimum but because it was summoned by the Pope froÌ„ all parts of the Christian world and there met together the greatest and most renowned assembly both of Clergy and Laity that euer was in the world which therfore it ill becomes you to deride In fine the three particular decrees you heere oppose but haue proued nothing against them are first inserted into the Decretalls which was done by Pope Gregory IX not many yeeres after the Councell was held who therein vsed the seruice of one of the best men of the world as I haue proued before Secondly they are put into the number of the Canons of this Councell by Crab who as I haue also proued tooke them out of the Originall Records Thirdly they are also reckoned amongst the rest of the Canons by all others that haue made edition of this Councell as Surius Binius and whosoeuer else Lastly they are receiued and allowed by the Catholique Church the strongest testimony of all others and doe you thinke to ouerthrow them who is sufficient for this he therfore that attempts it deserues the name of haereticorum maximus omnium generalis celeberrimus In the next place you inuade vs with an Arithmeticall argument but when I haue reckoned with you it will appeare that you are not a man of good account for thus you cast it C. But as it should seeme he that first composed it and stiled it so or afterwards set it forth and entituled it a Generall Councell had not his lesson perfect For betweene the seuenth and the eighth Generall Councell I trow there cannot another Generall Councell interueene as this notwithstanding is made to doe if it were so Great and so Generall as they say it is They count the second of Nice for the seuenth Generall which was held in the yeare 787. and the Councell of Florence held in the yeare 1449. for the eighth Generall as is there in the last session of it expressly set downe Finis octaui Concilii Generalis factus est 21. Iulii c. So that vnlesse they will make two eight generall Councells this of Lateran could be none ANSWER You passe from the matter of this Councell to disproue the title therof and say he that entituled it a generall Councell had not his lesson perfect and that because as you say they count the second of Nice for the seuenth generall Councell and the Councell of Florence for the eighth betweene thâ— seueÌ„th and the eighth there cannot another interueene as this is made to doe if it were so great and so generall as they say it is Truly if he that published this Councell had had his lesson no perfecter than he that made these obiections he deserued to be whipt for a trewant for neuer were there such idle obiections made I pray who are these they that account the Councell of FloreÌ„ce the eighth generall Councell your reader cannot but thinke you meane vs Roman Catholiques against whom you heere dispute and whom you would make to appeare so simple that they cannot tell eight But it is not the Roman account I trow that you heere follow but the schismaticall Grecian who yet will giue you no more thankes for it nor no more admitt you a member of their Church than will the Catholiques You must know thâ—n if you did not before that the eighth generall Councell was celebrated in Constantinople against Photius who made a schisme betweene the Latin and Greeke Church they of the schisme reiected this eighth and many other generall Councells which were celebrated in the west amoÌ„gst which this fourth of Lateran you so strongly and weakly fight against was one vntill the Grecians meeting againe with the Latins in the Councell of Florence the Grecians called that the eighth generall Councell which yet soone after they reiected and so at this day allow but seuen But if men may receiue and reiect Councells at their pleasure then you may with the Lutherans allow but six with the Eutychians which are yet in Asia but the first three with the Nestorians which are yet in the East but the first two with the Arrians and Trinitarians which are in Hungary and Poland none at all And this you and yours may doe with as good reason as they doe reiect and reuile this of Lateran and aboue all the sacred Oecumenicall Councell of Trent And