those expressions of the Fathers are only occasional or accidental but where they treat professedly of this Subject they speak plainly in our behalf and to follow the Rule of one of the Lights of your Church as you stile him in this Pamphlet I would fain know whether a mans judgment must be taken from occasional and incidental passages or from design'd and set discourses which is as much as to ask whether the lively representation of a man by Picture may best be taken when in haste of other business he passes by us giving only a glance of his Countenance or when he purposely and designedly sits in order to that end that his Countenance may be truly represented There 's no Book treats so fully and demonstratively of any Subject in one place but occasionally speaking of the same elsewhere from some obscure or dubious expression furnishes matter for an Objection against the Doctrine before designedly establish'd This is true even of the Bible it self which teaching Christ to be True Man do's yet by the occasional expression of St. Paul saying that he appear'd in Habit as a Man and in the Likeness of a Man give occasion to some to object that he was no Real and Substantial Man which strikes at the very Fundamental Truth deliver'd in that Sacred Volume and if this be true even of the Word of God it self what wonder to find it in the Works of the Fathers much more ample and voluminous Misrepresent This is another shift with a help of a Logical distinction however let this pass too But as long as you don't believe your sences but deny the certainty of those Powers which God has given us to lead us to the Belief of all the Mysteries of Christian Religion I am sure you contradict the Fathers and are in a fair way of undermining the very foundation of Christianity Represent This is the Cock-Argument of the other Light of your Church and it so far resembles the Light that like it it makes a glaring shew but go to grasp it and you find nothing in your Hand Why Misrepresenter even in this Mystery I believe more of my Sences than you do my Eyes tell me there is the colour of Bread and I assent to them my Tongue that it has the tast of Bread I agree to it my smelling that it has the smell of Bread I yield to it my Fingers that it feels like Bread I accept of the Information my Ears tell me from the Words spoken by Christ himself That it is the Body of Christ I believe these too Is not here Misrepresenter one Sence more than you believe And yet you would fain perswade the World I do not believe my Sences The Sence by which Faith comes is that of Hearing S. Paul possitively affirming that Faith comes by Hearing and how do I overthrow the certainty of Christian Religion by hearkning to that Sence by which all Faith is to be conveyed into my Soul Misrepresent You don't believe your Eyes which assure you of the Substance of the Bread being there even after Consecration Represent If your Eyes see the Substance of things they are most extraordinary ones and better than mine For my part mine never saw farther than the Colour or Figure c. of things which are only accidents and the entire Object of that Sence 'T is Reason or Judgment acquaints me with the Substance and this Judgment 't is true I frame generally from the Information of my Sences excepting when they are indisposed or some Divine Revelation intervenes For in this case I choose rather to judge from This than from my Sences as Abraham did who being told by his Sences That those three that appeared to him Gen 18. were Men and by a Revelation from God that they were Angels judged of them and their Nature according to the Revelation and not according to his Sences Misrepresent You are all upon Quirks and Philosophy to day and I am tired with your Distiactions and so farewel till the Holy-days are over Represent Fare you well but do you hear don't forget to send your People to the Chappels to Morrow Morning to see the Nursing and Rocking the Child in the Cradle This is one of your April-Errands for Christmas Morning and you don't think much of making the Papists ridiculous though it be at the expence of making your own people Fools Publish'd with Allowance London Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented SECOND PART CHAP. IIII. The Form of the Catholic Church establish'd by Christ No hopes of Salvation out of it The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this point Good at this day The Protestants as uncharitably damn the Papists as These are said to do the Protestants In reference to the Preface of Wholsome advises from the B. V. c. THe Papists Misrepresented is Member of a Church which excludes all others from the hopes of Salvation besides those who are within the Pale of her own Communion And no doubt his Church is True if uncharitableness be but a Mark of the True one if it be but safest to be on the uncharitable side he 's beyond all question in the right But certainly this is to leave the Rule of Christ and his Apostles and of the Primitive Church who taught none of this damning Doctrine but ever recommended Charity as the necessary foundation of a Christian life THe Papist Represented is taught that Christ our Saviour before his Ascension into Heaven establish'd a Church consisting of all True Believers amongst which he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ till we all come in the Vnity of Faith. Ephes 4. 11 12 13. These Apostles Evangelists Pastons and Teachers he constituted over the Faithful to over-see rule and direct them to whom he gave them in charge by the mouth of St. Paul Act. 20. 28. Take heed therefore unto your selves and to all the Flock over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you Over-seers to feed the Church of God which he hath pnrchas'd with his own blood with a strict Command to the Flock or Congregation of the Faithful to be obedient to these Pastors thus put over them by the Ordinance of God Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves for They watch for your Souls as they that must give account And vers 7. Remember them which have the rule over you who have spoken unto you the word of God whose Faith follow This command of submitting to Pastors was given to the Flock as he is taught by St. Paul for the preventing Divisions and Schisms that so notwithstanding their differing private Inclinations Capacities Sence and Judgment by this Obedience and Submission to those that
Protestant Reasoning discover or even apprehend how there can be three distinct Persons in One Divine Nature undivided or how God could be made Man be Born Suffer and Die But not to go so high Can you conceive it as agreeable to your Reason How all this World could be made out of Nothing Can you conceive What Eternity is to be without begining or ending For the Bodies of all the Sons of Adam to rise from the Dead after having pass'd through so many successive Corruptions How the Bodies of the Just shall become Spiritual and put on Incorruption And those of the Wicked be tormented for ever as long as God shall be God Can you conceive apprehend or by your Reason tell How these things can be Can your Reason by being Protestant open unto you these Mysteries And I hope you believe them with a firm and undoubting Faith. Misrepresent Yes I believe them all and to speak plainly I think they are far above the reach of all Humane Reason Man may endeavour to explicate them by Similitudes or some proportion in Nature but these still fall much short of the real Truth of those Mysteries and he that thinks he comprehends them does only deceive himself and like those who try to look the Sun full in the Face see nothing by presuming to see too much However notwithstanding this great disproportion the Mysteries of Christian Religion bear with humane Reason yet I believe them all with a firm and certain Faith to be true upon the Authority of God revealing them who is Truth it self Represent Spoke like a Christian and if all Protestants would joyn with you in this Sentiment there would not be so many Reasoning Atheists in the World as there are But give me leave Misrepresenter Is it not a very spiteful and un-neighbourly Trick that whilst you thus in private profess and own so sovereign a Truth as this and that you believe such Mysteries according to your Religion which your Reason can neither see nor understand Yet when you come to appear in Publick and are to win the favour of the People by declaiming against Popery you then dress out this in the Papists as the greatest piece of non-sense in the World 't is then nothing but going blindfold laying aside Reason a slavish Submission and a thousand worse things besides Come let me tell you this your putting on at pleasure different Faces is no credit to your cause And it makes some begin to think That many of your Popular Harangues have more of Policy in them than Religion that they drive more at keeping up a Party than saving of Souls Otherwise why should you in publick set that forth as Ridiculous in the Papists which in your more sober conversation between Friends you profess your selves and own as Reasonable and Christian Misrepresent This is nothing better than railery Why I don't blame the Papists upon this account I only pity and condemn them because Poor Souls they are forc'd to take up all Religion upon trust they are not allow'd the use of the Bible and so cannot examine by their own Reason the Doctrine of Christ and Mysteries of his Faith but without all Seeing or Reasoning must take all that 's given them for Good and so are merely led Captives depending wholly upon the Will of their Ignorant Guides and if they will but say as they say they are Good Catholics tho' they understand not a Word This is it I call going Blindfold hood-winking of Reason and slavish Obedience Represent You are come now to your Popular Topic and yet you cannot turn your self in it without Misrepresenting deceiving and stretching your Stories beyond the bounds of Truth You please your people by putting the Bible into their hands encouraging them to search the Scriptures to find out the Truth that so the Word of Christ may dwell richly in them in all Wisdom Then you tell them of the great Blessing they enjoy in as much as their lot is not fallen in those unhappy Places where the people can by no means procure the Reading of the Bible cannot come to the Knowledge of the Word of God or of their Duty but must walk in Darkness and see no Light. Misrepresent Well and is not this true Represent 'T is like the Truths you generally tell when you rail against the Papists It has a little of Truth in it and the Greater Part False It has a Truth for the Foundation but then you raise so many False Constructions Wrong Inferences and Misapplications upon it that the Truth is violently bore down and almost sunk into nothing Misrepresent Come let me take my Turn You Catechis'd me in one Point now let me examine you in another Do you Believe the Bible to be the Word of God Represent Yes I believe it to be the Word of God that it contains the Doctrine of Christ and as such I am commanded to Respect Honour and Reverence it and so I do sincerely desiring rather to lose my life than contemn or injure that Sacred Volume Misrepresent Do you think it convenient for the People to Know and Understand the Doctrine it delivers Represent I think it not only convenient but also necessary for them to Know and Understand it and that Salvation is not attainable by those who do not do as is there commanded or do not believe as is there taught Misrepresent Why then do you deprive the Vulgar and Ordinary People of this Holy Food of their Souls which you judge Necessary for their Salvation Why do you take the Light out of their Hands and force them to walk in darkness Represent The Ordinary People and Vulgar of our Communion have more of this Holy Food are better serv'd with this Light of Truth than those of any other Perswasion whatsoever and 't is nothing but an Aspersion of yours to say They are depriv'd of this Bread of Life and are left without Means of knowing their Duty to God and their Neighbour Do you but consider a little Misrepresenter Are those People depriv'd of the Word of God who are taught it by their Pastors by God's Appointment ordain'd to teach them Or does he take the better course to be instructed in his Christian Duty who leaving his Pastors goes about to teach himself Men don 't generally think that Flock to be depriv'd of its food which is carefully fed by the Shepherd neither is that Sick Man left without Means for his Cure who receives Prescriptions from the Physician without having the liberty of the Apothecarie's Shop to take what best suits with his Taste or his Phancy where tho' all be Good if rightly applied yet 't is easie mistaking the use of the Drugs and taking Killing ones instead of Curing Why then should you defame the Papists as not having God's Word dwelling in their hearts whenas tho' they do not receive it generally by Reading it themselves yet they are instructed in that Sacred Truth and fed with it by
the Scripture in their Memory more Texts at their tongue's command more of the Books in their hands but 't is where more care is taken for imprinting the true Sence of these Words in the Vnderstanding of the People and where is us'd the most prudential method for the leading them into the truth of all the Mysteries contain'd in that sacred Volume And in this Point the Papist will yield to none for it is an unquestionable truth that when a Book contains high Mysteries of Religion Mysteries superiour to all Sence and Reason and those not deliver'd in expressions suited to every capacity but obnoxious to various interpretations such as may be wrested by the unlearned and unstable to their own Destruction in this case 't is an unquestionable truth I say that that People is in all probability likely to have more of the true Sence of this Book and to be better informed of the truth of the Mysteries it contains who are instructed in it by the Learned of that Communion and taught it by their Pastors Prelates and those whom God hath placed over them to govern and feed the Flock than any other People who have the Book put into their own hands to read it and search it and satisfie themselves For why Are not the Pastors more capable of teaching the People than the People are to teach themselves Or is it commendable in Scripture only and Religion for every one to be his own Master which in any other matter whosoever doe's it shall be esteem'd a Fool We know Moses Deut. 31. 9. gave the Book of the Law to the Levites to keep and read it every seven years to the People and in King Jehoshaphats reign 2 Chron. 17. 9. the Priests and Levits did read it and teach the People so did Jeremy Jer. 36. by Gods command so Isaiah so Ezekiel so the Levits Nehemiah 8. 8. Read in the Book in the Law of God distinctly and gave the Sence and caus'd them the People to understand the Reading And did not our Blessed Saviour Luc. 4. 17. take the Book of the Prophet and read it and expound it to the People And was not this the Office of the Apostles and Deacons to interpret the Scriptures and instruct their Followers what they were to believe and doe For this intention was Ananias sent to Saul Peter to Cornelius and Philip to the Eunuch who professedly own'd he could not understand the Prophet in so necessary a Point as that of the Messias without an Interpreter How can I understand said he except some man should guide me Act. 8. 31. Since therefore the Papists in delivering the Scripture come nearest to this Method commanded by God in the Old Law prescrib'd and practis'd by Christ and his Apostles in the New what People can be better instructed in the true sence of it and understand more of the Mysteries of the Christian Faith than they With what Reason can it be urg'd against the Vulgar of his Communion that the Scriptures are hid from them that they are bred up in blindness and ignorance Do not the Pastors expound the Scriptures to them do not they instruct them in every Point of their Religion and teach them the whole Duty of a Christian Is it not this they do in their Pulpits in their Catechisms in the Confessionaries in so many hundred spiritual Books plainly laying before them their whole obligation both as to Faith and Good manners And is this to conceal from them the Scripture Is the Word of God hid from them because they have their Pastors to instruct them in it Or are they any ways injur'd because they have learneder men than themselves to teach them Is the Multitude a better Judge of Scripture and more able to discover the truth of it than those whom God has plac'd over them Has God so deserted the Pastors and Prelates of his Church and is the Flock of late become so Wise The Faith of Christ was first planted by Christ's Preaching it to the Multitude by the same way 't was propagated by the Apostles and so it is to be deliver'd down to the end of the World Faith comes by hearing By this means many Barbarous Nations saies St. Irenaeus l. 3. adv har c. 3. believe in Christ have the Doctrine of Salvation written in their Hearts by the Holy Ghost without the help of Books and religiously observe the Traditions believing in one God c. Now 't is certain the Truth of this Christian Faith with all its Mysteries is unquestionably preserv'd in Christs Catholic Church and the People are to receive it and not to find out their Faith and Religion every one for themselves If they are afraid of being deceiv'd when they rely on their Pastors for it they run ten times the hazard when they trust to themselves The Papist therefore is taught that since Christ has a Church upon earth in which is conserv'd the truth of the Gospel 't is safer and more prudential for the People to be instructed in this Truth from the Pastors of this Church and by this means come to the Knowledg of the Word of God that is of its true sence and meaning than by committing the Book it self into the hands of the Multitude and leting every one understand it for themselves He knows 't is a very popular thing and acceptable to the prying Multitude to have a Book at command which directs the Way to Salvation but since 't is not the Book is to save him but the Truth and Doctrine which it teaches he believes 't is better learning this from those who are Wiser and are commissionated from Heaven to teach than to venture at it himself without any Authority The unhappy Divisions among Christians sufficiently inform him that to such Readers as St. Peter calls unreary and ignorant however wise they may think themselves Aâ—ianism may be as obvious in this Book as Christs Divinity and that when such an one undertakes the interpreting of it 't is an hazard whether at the end he comes out Quaker Anabaptist Presbyterian Independent Mugletonian Socinian or Atheist 'T is a Venture whether the Trinity shall have place in his Creed or no whether he 'll allow of Baptism or any Sacrament and whether Cruelty cutting of Throats Oppression Tyranny Dethroning of Kings and Murder of Princes shall not with him become a necessary Duty and a true serving of the Lord. For all these and more damnable Doctrines has he seen preach'd up and practic'd by those who have had the Bible in their Banners who have been esteem'd Searchers of the Word of God and presumptuously made their Comments upon this Sacred Text. And is it not this abuse that has occasion'd so many Schisms and almost broken the Mystical Body of Christ into pieces That whereas all his Followers should be of one mind now no body knows what Religion his Neighbour is of but every Wall now parts Religions more than Seas did heretofore And
same Reason tho the Pictures of Christ c. are nothing but Ink and Paper like others yet because the Stroks of that Ink are so ordered and drawn there that they Signifie and Represent to him Christs Nativity his Scourging at the Pillar or Passion on the Cross c. they are to him like a Chapter of the Bible it self informing him of the same Sacred Mystery teaching him the same Divine Truth and upon this Consideration are to him a part of Gods holy Word without any difference from that Chapter of the Bible which treats of that Mystery besides in the different Fashion of the Stroks and manner of laying on the Ink. And if in the Contemplation and Consideration of these Divine Truths and Sacred Mysteries thus Represented to him he stands with his Head uncover'd or on his knees he do's it only to express the Love and Honour which at that time enflame his heart towards God and the Veneration which he has for Christ in those endearing Passages And in these Actions and Postures he do's no more make a God of or give Idolatrous Worship to the Paper Ink or Colours of those Pictures or the Material Images than he makes a God of the Bible when in taking an Oath he stands with his Head uncover'd and kisses it or reads it on his knees or gives Idolatrous Worship to a Preacher when he hears him deliver Gods Word with his Headbare Let Divines therefore wrangle to the Worlds end and dispute whether this Honour this Reverence and Respect shewn to the Bible to a Preachers Sermon to Pictures or Images be the same or distinct from what is given to the Things Represented whether it terminates on them absolutely after an Inferiour manner or only relatively and so forth This they may go on with for the exercise of their Wits and Tongues and others may scatter these Notions amongst the Crowd for the Confusion of Mankind and the Disturbance of weak Brains but for his part he 's little concern'd with these Debates He 's certain he believes in Worships and Adores only One God who Created and Redeemed him and by whose Mercy and Grace he expects Salvation and he confesses that all Pictures Images c. relating to Him or his Saints are nothing more than Paper Colours Wood Stone c. meer Creatures not to be confided in Yet as long as he sees that Christians full of Devotion and Zeal can kneel down before a piece of Bread for its being a Figure or a Representative Commemoration of Christ his Goodness and Passion and yet to the Honour and Glory of God. As long as he sees Men full of Scorn and Rage can shew their Malice to a great Prelate by exposing his Effigies to the contemptuous Shouts of the Rabble carrying it in a mock-Procession and committing it to the flames and this without having it decided whether it be the same Dishonour shewn to the Image and to the Person and whether it be the same Respect and Reverence given to the Sacramental Figure and to Christ or a different As long as he sees this he cannot doubt to Honour and Reverence Christ before an Image relating to him notwithstanding the Speculative Scruple whether it be the same or a distinct Veneration given to God and to the Image 'T is a sufficient satisfaction to him that all the Love Respect Honour or Veneration he has for the Bible for a Sermon for a Picture or Image of Christ c. is wholly for the Sake the Love and Honour he bears to Christ and howsoever he expresses it whether by kissing these Commemorative Signs by Bowing by Kneeling by Incensing c. yet as long as these are only so many different ways or speaking Testimonies of the affection of his Soul towards God as God is his Witness who sees his heart he can have no scruple in performing them no more than others who being sensible of a diflerent motion in their Souls towards Queen Mary and her Sister Queen Elizabeth express the Love the Respect and Honour they have for the latter by placing her Picture in their Churches by keeping her Day in a certain Veneration by ringing of Bells burning Candles lighting Bonfires all which are nothing but so much Street-incense offer'd up to her Honour and Memory For what reason can he have to think that to be idolatrous when done to the Honour of God which he sees thus without scruple or fear of Idolatry perform'd to a Queen no otherwise Canoniz'd but by the Sainting breath of the Rabble This then is what he do's as to Sacred Images and tho his Adversaries by calling this worshipping adoring falling down to Images can presently raise a Notion of Idolatry in their unthinking Auditory yet 't is upon such Principles that their Dissenting Brethren pursuing the same Reasonings a little farther draw them under the same Infamy throwing the Coat over their Heads which they had cut out for others Shoulders But now as for Praying to Images 't is what the utterly detests as a thing contrary to all Reason and Religion The Council of Trent expresly declares to all of his Communion that no Vertue or Divinity is to be believ'd to be in Images nothing is to be asked of them nor confidence to be placed in them What praying then can there be to Images if nothing be to be ask'd of them For his part he could as well pray to the Monument to the Statues of the Kings in the Exchange or to the Giants in Guild-ball as to the Image of the Greatest Saint in Heaven and thinks 't would be as much to the purpose and vet if the True-representing Catechisme is to be heard the Papists do not only kiss the Images of Christ and his Saints but they likewise Pray to them God deliver him from such true Representing The Answer to The Papists Misrepresented c. p. 17 is so just to the Papists as to grant that They do not absolutely Pray to Images this in his opinion being a charge too absurd to be urg'd against the most brutish of Heathens And afterwards p. 22. when he comes to speak of Praying to Images he tells you of a Sense in which it may be taken that is If the world be so pleas'd to take it so and 't is that Praying to Images shall signifie not an oblation of Prayers to Christ's Image so as to expect to be heard by the Image but so as to expect to be rather heard by Christ himself for praying to him by his Image So that praying to Images comes to be the same as praying to Christ by his Image and afterwards within a line or two is nothing but praying where Images are or before Images Thus he do's not positively charge the Papists with praying to Images but only endeavours to prove it in some sense and then honestly and fairly explicates what he means by those words and at last do's not impute it as a Doctrine but only as a consequence that
the ridiculing of Popery but the same if followed on will as certainly undermine the Truth of the whole Gospel and cut the Sinews of all Religion This Heathen-Catechist has not gone one tittle beyond the Copy set him in the True-representing Catechism and you see how fearfully it begins to work The citation of three or four words out of a Hymn was Argument enough to lay the Papists flat for so many stupid Sots and has any thing been here asserted against the Protestants but what has been supported by as plain and express words as those of the Popish hymn If in the one case therefore this way of proving do's not hold how comes it to be so conclusive in the other Misrepresent The Words 't is true of the Scripture cited in this Mock-Catechism are as plain and express as can be but they are here made use of in a sence never intended by those Divine Pen-men the Authors of Sacred Writ who tho they have the very words cited yet never meant them as here they are brought in their literal and rigid sence but some of them Figuratively some of them in Conformity to our Apprehensions some of them in the Person of another c. and begin thus understood they make no reflection upon Protestancy or Christanity but are truly edifying Repres This is honestly said and if you could but do so in any others case besides your own there would be more peace in this Nation and above half the Devils that disturb its quiet would be laid Had the True-representing Catechism but thus impartially interpreted the words of the Hymn above mention'd and given the true sence of it he had never been set upon the File of Misrepresenters But to charge bluntly an absurdity upon the Papists and to pretend to prove it against them from their own plain words without discovering their meaning is to do the same as our Heathen-Catechist has perform'd to the life defaming Christianity from the express words of Scripture and both alike by Misrepresenting Would you and such whose thriving depends much upon your Art see to give every thing its true weight and sence and shew the right side outward of every thing you expose to the admiring Crowds this sincere and honest dealing would much more recommend you to well meaning people than the more fashionable way of blackning and ridiculing your Neighbours But an ill habit is not easily laid by 'T is matter of some Admiration to me to consider how uneven your Proceedings are in this kind how readily you can discover a speech to be figurative when that sence best serves your own turn And how in other occasions nothing of Figure can be found when the literal sence will serve to cast an infamy upon the Papists The Fathers in their Works do very frequently address themselves to the Martyrs and Saints in Heaven desiring their Assâ—stance and Prayers that they would joyn with them in their Requests Nay they expresly say that the Saints ought to be pray'd to Now because this do's not favour your Cause in the literal sence 't is strange how industrious you are to suck out the substance and to blow it all up into a Figure and those express Prayers are no Prayers but rather Raptures Innocent Wishes Rhetorical Flights and Apostropâ—es On the other side tho the Papists are never any where directed to pray to the Cross have no Prayers to the Cross yet because in one of their Hymns are found two words literally implying a Prayer to it Oh! this must be taken literally here no Figure can be discover'd no Rapture no Innocent Wish Rhetorical Flight or Apostophe altho the whole Hymn be nothing but a Poetical composure which without any injury to Christian Truth takes the liberty of such Innocent Flights Thus are you sometimes for Figures and somtimes for no Figures managing every thing as will best contribute to the advancing your own Cause the running down Popery and making it odious with the People This seems to be your chief aim in all your Performances and the only Measure of your Comments and Interpretations I wish you would be more serious in a Concern of this moment and not expose thus the Reputation of the greatest part of the Christian World to the mercy of every little Conceit and petty imaginary Proof Such Arguments as these might serve well enough for a Christmas-Nights Entertainment but to insert them for a Catechism-Proof when the Subject is Religion and the Guidance of Souls is very unseasonable and improper especially when true Representing and doing it faithfully is pretended in the Frontispiece Misrepresent Do'nt run your self out of Breath upon this Point you have another yet to speak to viz. Why the Papists go in long Pilgrimages to certain Images if they do not Pray to them or hope to be better heard for Praying there Represent That 's another of the Catechism Proofs but for a Diversion there 's another Piece calls for a Word or two Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented SECOND PART CHAP. III. Whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation be contrary to the Writings of the Primitive Fathers or agreeable to them The Papist believes his Senses in this Mystery as much as the Protestant being Notes upon a late Pamphlet intit'led The Papists Doctrine of Transubstantiation not agreeable to the Primitive Fathers The Papist Misrepresented by the wonderful Advantages of Implicit Faith and Prejudice is preserv'd in Ignorance and led into the most Monstrous of Errors By these helps the late Inventions of Men are shamm'd upon him for the Doctrine of the Primitive Church and what was never known to the Ancient Fathers takes place in his Creed as Their most constant and profess'd Doctrine This is evident in many Particulars but most clearly as to the Point of Transubstantiation which the Primitive Fathers were so far from holding that They believ'd the direct contrary Indeed we have from the Writings of the Fathers so many plain Places against this Doctrine that we cannot conceive how it came into the World so that notwithstanding the Papists pretence to Antiquity in this Point we shall find they are meer Gibeonits who have made use of their moldy bread and clouted shoes to deceive the People of the Lord and that they confidently lay claim to the Fathers for the defence of this Point which upon examination is found quite contrary to their Belief Sum. of the Pamphl THe Papist Represented admits nothing to take place in his Creed but upon such strong and convincing Motives that none can accuse him of Ignorance or Error but those who have their Judgments swallow'd up by Prejudice and whose Passion has over-run their Reason The Inventions of Men are with him but of little value they may be the Subject of his Opinion but no concern of his Faith This bids them
see Misrepresenter how many different Conceptions of the Mind and Affections or Motions of the Heart are express'd by this one and the same Word Worship And all these the Papists give to these several Objects due proportion being always observ'd according to their different Degree of Excellency So that tho they are all call'd by the same Name of Worship yet it signifies a different Affection of the Soul as due to each respective Object Upon this hinge turns this Controversie and if you would be so sincere as to explicate this Truth and not presently make every thing Idolatry where you see a Worship paid much of this Unchristian Wrangling which has disturbed the World these hundred and fifty years might be prevented for the future Mr. Thorndike was so honest as to give this notice to his Readers Epil p. 3. p. 353. Where he says that the words Adoration Worship Respect Reverence or howsoever you translate the word Cultus are or may be in despite of our hearts equivocal and the cause of this equivocation is the want of Words properly to signifie Conceptions which came not from common use St. Augustine declar'd this Truth long ago l. 10. de Civit. Dei c. 1. where he shews all these Words Servitus Cultus Religio Pietas Service Worship Religion Piety to be Equivocal and may be applied both to God and Creatures And thus Catholics many times use them without the least entrenching upon the Divine Prerogative or scandal to their Neighbour which had never been heightned to that degree as is at this day had not some as the Pharisees did to our B. Saviour stood by and taken as much pains to wrest every thing into a Wrong Sense as Charity obliges to interpret in a Right one And as Worship is understood in all this latitude 't is hard to make it out that Men are to pray to every thing they Worship or that Prayer is necessarily depending on it But then again if the Catechism by his Praying to means no more than Praying at or before Images I have nothing to say to it I only complain'd of it because by his Expression as it stands there he seems willing to have his Reader understand it that the Papists so pray to Images as if they expected to be heard by them or that They should obtain or grant their Request which is a most foul Misrepresentation But as for Praying before them 't is what we own and Practice And since to at and before come to be all one with him let the Words of Abjuration quoted by Spelman be thus Understood as Dr. Stillingfleet makes Bowing to the Name of Jesus and at it Idol of Ch. R. p. 111. Ed. 1. to be the same and then it plainly declares our Doctrine and we shall not fall out much upon this matter Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. VI. The Papist do's not believe but upon most Convincing Reasons Mysteries of Faith above Reason not contrary to it The Papist is not depriv'd of the Word of God nor kept from the Knowledge of the Gospel He does not Pray to the Cross more than Protestants pray to their Bibles or the Sacrament Three Protestant Queries Answered THe Papist Misrepresented knows no reason for the Religion he professes He 's over-ruled by Authority and is forc'd to submit his Belief to such Points as are contrary to his Reason He 's depriv'd of the Word of God and kept in a miserable Ignorance of his Duty both to God and his Neighbour THe Papist Represented very commendably enquires into the Reasonableness of his Belief He searches into the Motives of his Faith and here applys all the Reason he is able to Examine Consider Weigh and Judge of things aright not taking one step forward in order to give the least assent by Faith till his Judgment is thoroughly convinced that in Reason he 's bound to do it and that he should be self-condemn'd by his own Knowledge or Conscience if he did not submit upon such Evidence and full conviction This is what he is taught to do as to the Motives or Reasons of his Believing all those Points which are purely Mysteries of Faith. But although he has good Reason for giving his assent by Faith to all the Articles of Christian Religion Yet because the greatest part of them are above his Reason and therefore properly call'd Mysteries he cannot pretend to measure them by his short-sighted Reason no more than take the demensions of the Heavens by his Span which are out of his reach For how can Reason without a daring Presumption undertake to fathom such things which however agreeable to the Infinite Vnderstanding of God bear no proportion with any Created Faculties whilst encompassed with Flesh In the Mysteries therefore of his Faith his Reason is over-rul'd by Authority so that in these he goes much farther than his Reason will carry him His Reason indeed directs him to the Authority but then having discover'd this his Faith follows with Certainty and Security where Reason can give her no Light. Misrepresent Vpon this account it is I declare to my Followers that the Papists believe without Reason that whosoever will be a Papist must cast a Blind over all his Rational Faculties and by a slavish Obedience submit his Faith without controul Represent And for this very reason you are a Misrepresenter and slander the Papists For the Papists use their Reason as much as any Protestant in the World can do I have told you already they apply their Reason to search with the strictest scrutiny into all the Motives which are apt to make a thing Credible and never Submit their Faith but where their Reason upon the strongest and most convincing Arguments obliges them to it and that so forcibly that 't would be a contradiction to their Reason not to submit Can any Protestant do more than this Misrepresent Yes We search into the very Mysteries of the Christian Faith and believe no farther than is agreeable to our Reason at least so as not to be against it A Protestant by his Religion is so reasonable a Creature that no Authority in the World can oblige him to believe contrary to his Reason he 'll believe things above his Reason but not contrary to it Represent Thus you deceive your selves and all that follow you Why all this is nothing but what the Papists are taught to do You pretend to Reformation condemning the Papists for going Blindfold and yet what you do is downright Popery There 's no Papist in the World is taught to believe contrary to Reason they believe such Mysteries as are above Reason but nothing contrary to it Let me examine you a little in this Point and we shall soon find what agreement there is betwixt us You believe the Mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation Misrepresent Yes Represent But can any
the whole is come to be no more than a Perswasion a Judgment an Opinion And now since these and infinite other mischiefs arise from the free permitting the Bible among the Multitude he thinks it commendable in his Church out of a true Solicitude for the Salvation of Souls to prevent these evils by teaching them the true Sence of this Sacred Volume and instructing them in their whole Duty as to all they are to believe and practice without leaving the Book to be scann'd by them as they please and so not permitting them to turn the Food of their Souls into Poyson or abuse that to theit Destruction which was ordain'd by Christ for their gaining of Heaven They are not therefore depriv'd of the Holy Scripture but have the whole benefit of it and all the comfort being instructed in the whole word of God only with this Advantage that 't is not left in their power to do themselves any mischief by abusing it And this is so ordered only in consideration of the Vulgar who are commonly very ignorant unsteady bold presuming or as St. Paul stiles them Vnlearn'd and Vnstable and easy to be deceiv'd whilst judicious men of his Communion any one that is Learned Prudent and Sober may be easily permitted to have the perusal of this Book to read it as much and as often as he pleases because such are not in danger of prejudicing themselves by false interpretations or preferring their own Sence before that which they receive from their Pastors and the Church 'T is not the Book therefore that is properly forbidden but only false and presumptuous interpretations of it and such only who are in all probability likely to do this are not permitted to read it And upon the whole there 's nothing more in this great noise of the Papist being depriv'd of the Word of God than that such as for the most part are not capable amongst them of reading it as they ought have not leave to read it and those that are capable may have in most Countreys leave to read it as they please Those that can read it to edification may have it at desire and those that are likely to read it to the perverting of Gods Holy Word and the destruction of their own Souls 'T is thought fit they should let it alone Publish'd with Allowance London Prnted by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. VIII The Vulgar not permitted to read the Bible among the Papists for fear they should discover the Errours of their Religion an Absurd Calumny The Restraint is That there may not be as many different Words of God as there are 〈◊〉 amongst them and may have something better ground that their own Imagination to direct their Faith a word to a Lay-friend Misrepresent YOu gave me no room to put in one word in your last but for all your long-winded Reasons there why the Vulgar of your Communion do not generally read the Scriptures I can apprehend no other but only that your Priesis and Jesuits being conscious of the unreasonableness of Popery and how contrary it is to the Truth of God's Word dare not allow the People the reading and perusirg it left finding their Religion not to stand the trial of the Scriptures they should discover the delusion and run over to the Reformation Represent I expect no better from you 't is your trade to make the worst of every thing the Papists do but the best on 't is your Misconstructions lie so open that there needs no more than a mere glimpse of Reason to discover all your Art. For if any of your Auditors should but once consider that tho' the Vulgar and unlearned of the Papists have not in some Countries the Bible promiscuously allow'd amongst them yet that in those same Countries and all others there 's no Colledge Vniversity Community or place of learning but where the Scriptures are publickly read and expounded if they should consider this I say Is it possible for them to believe that that Restraint is upon the Vulgar for fear they should see into the Foliies of their Religion If their Religion were so contrary to Scripture as you pretend is it not more likely the learned should make this discovery in their reading the Bible than the Vulgar if they had the like liberty Cannot Scholars as easily see the Truth of Scripture and what is erroneous and at defiance with it as the Vnlearned Or are the Errors and Foliies of Popery such that of necessity a man must be a Block-head to understand them Since when became Mechanics and Apron-strings so priviledg'd that to be bred up to the Anvil the Needle or the Ell should qualifie better for the understanding the Scriptures than application Study and the education of a Vniversity Or is it probable that every man amongst the Papists no sooner becomes Scholar but he turns Atheist That upon their search in the Bible they plainly see all the errors of their Religion and yet are so bewitched as to go on boldly and jocondly to the Devil without speaking a word or moving a step to save their own Souls or their Relations Come Misrepresenter this looks so like a sham of yours that I cannot but admire your confidence I wonder how you dare venture your credit in exposing such weak and ill-grounded Arguments You have men of sense and reason to deal with and 't is much they do not make exceptions But I suppose you rely upon the hearty Prejudice they have against Popery in which case you know they 'l take upon trust they 'l pin their Faith upon any mans Sleeve and let impossibilities pass for evident Truths without examination Misrepresent You may prove and preach as long as you please but I am sure thousands and thousands that I meet with will never believe otherwise than I tell you You do all things by design and you have no other reason notwithstanding all your loud pretences for keeping the Eible out of the hands of your common people but only the jealousie your Pastors have that by that Light they 'l see into the deformitys of Popery and prove Deserters Represent The men of this Creed are only such whose Eyes you have put out to lead them by the Nose after you where you please What ground can there be for this pretension at least here in England where the Bible in English or Rhemes-Testament is to be found in most Catholic Families If the Prohibition of not reading the Bible be as you pretend in other Countries for fear of the Vulgar discovering the Errors of their Religion How comes it they donâ—t make this discovery here Do you find so many Deserters in this Nation upon this score Many have quitted that Communion upon other motives best known to themselves but never any one I could meet with left them yet by reading and following the Word of God. Again
if the reading the Scriptures is such a defeat to Popery as you give out Is it likely those who have been bred up to the reading the Bible and have made it their Study and Companion should ever embrace that Communion And yet whosoever shall examin will find the greater part of that Church here in this Nation to have had their education and grown up with the Bible in hand and That too not translated for the advantage of Popish Principles Misrepresent Let 's have then your Reason why the Holy Scriptures are not generally allow'd to the Vulgar of your Church without exception Represent 'T is that there may not be as many different Bibles amongst them as there are Heads and that they may have something better than an Imagination to build their Salvation on Misrepresent This is all Paradox Why have the Protestants here in England as many different Bibles as Heads They all read the Bible and yet 't is but one and the same in all their hands Represent As to what 's in their Hands you are in the right But see what 's in their Heads A little consideration will convince you that what you call a Paradox is nothing less than a Plain Truth And that in reality there are as many Words of God amongst them as Heads I gave you a hint in our last discourse That tho' the Book of the Scriptures do's certainly contain the Word of God yet to every Christian that reads it 't is the sense and meaning and not the Letter is more properly the Word of God for their instruction and direction Now do you but reflect in how many different senses the Letter of the Bible is understood and so many different Bibles will you find multiplyed by your followers And tell me upon examination whether this be much fewer than Heads Misrepresent This is still mysterious Represent Every thing is so to you which is not for your purpose Tell me How do your people benefit by the Scriptures is it by laying the Bible upon their Heads and so understanding it Or is it by the Sense and meaning in which they understand it If it be by the sense and meaning then just that is the Bible to every one as the sense is in which they conceive it And if you can't apprehend this without longer explications follow my directions and you shall find it as evident as demonstration Provide your self well of Pen Ink and Paper and having done this invite the first of your Congregation you meet and if he be at leisure desire him to give you an account of the sense in which he understands the Scripture Write you it down all at length as he delivers it And having finish'd with him go to another and do the like Then to a third so to a fourth and fifth c. Still laying by every one's volume by it self And when you have gone as far as you think enough for your satisfaction compare your Writings together see how they agree and remember that as different as you find them in the Doctrine of Christ in the Mysteries of Faith in the commands of the Apostles c. So many different Words of God have you And as different as they are in your Papers just so are they in the Heads of those who directed your Pen Your Papers being nothing but a Transcript or Copy of such conceptions as are laid up in their Heads for the express Doctrine of Christ and unquestionable Word of God. Misrepresent This is a pretty Chimoera I confess 'T is much cheaper taking your explication than making the experiment Represent Well but what do you say to it If you will not take the trouble imagine it within your self and suppose it done by the Pens of ten thousand Angels Don't you think there wou'd be a pretty variety of Bibles There wou'd be This Man's Bible and That man's Bible Such an one's Bible and Such an one's Bible infinite numbers of Bibles Misrepresent You make a droll of these sacred matters Why these wou'd not be Bibles nor different Words of God but so many different Conceptions of the same Word of God. Represent 'T is you make the Droll and I expose it to your shame You think then these Transcripts would not be Bibles nor so many words of God and you are in the right for they wou'd be only so many Imaginations of theirs that frame them But why do you delude the poor people in this manner putting the Bible into their hands and perswading them they are guided by the Scriptures and the Word of God whenas when you come to see what it is they steer by you dare not own it for the Word of God but their own imaginations it being not the Book as it is in their Hands they are directed by but as it is in their Heads And to convince you agen by a farther experiment how far it is as it lies there from being the Word of God take but those suppos'd Copies we spoke of just now and carry them to any Licenser of your own to examine in order to be Printed and Publish'd for the Word of God and Rule of Faith and see whether you can find any will set them forward with an Imprimatar And if it be absurd even to suppose you could What an Unchristian Imposture is it to let so many poor Souls go on with a secure confidence of following the Word of God and building their Salvation on it when what they really follow and build on is so far from being what they imagine that if expos'd to public 't would pass for no better than some Religious Imaginations or Pious Dreams 'T is then for the avoiding these Inconveniencies the Vulgar amongst us are not generally allow'd the Bible Our Church takes care to put the same Word of God into their Heads and Hearts by instructing them all in its Doctrin as it has been deliver'd down and practis'd in the Catholic Church in all Ages since the Apostles Your Church puts the same Bible into the Hands of your Vulgar but for their Heads and Hearts it leaves them to take their venture and here lies the difference between us Misrepresent Stop a little Have you receiv'd your Answer from your Lay-Friend He pinches closely Represent I fear he 's too much your Friend to be much Mine or his own I cannot but suspect him since he pretends so great zeal for Truth and brings so much Gall and Passion along with him to conduct him to it His open Profession p. 10 where he says I must tell my Mind freely for I have vow'd to follow Truth and Charity wherever thâ—y lead me And then his Resolate consession in the very next Page where he thus declares Thus much I le confess That I desire to live no longer than I can if not speak yet love and admire the Church of England 's sense is a plain argument to me he is one of your acquaintance and that 't is not to be
but chiefly Eusebius Caesariensis an Historian of that Age and who is listed by Dr. Swadlin in the same place for another Professor of the Protestant Religion Besides we 'll see what account some Modern Protestant Historians give of the Religion of those times Misrepresent Very fairly propos'd See you hold on so to the end and He hear you with patience for I am of the same mind with your Lay-friend and He tell it you freely I have vow'd to follow Truth and Charity where-ever they lead me Represent This is some encouragement if your heart keep pace with your words But lâ—t's enter upon our view First I find Constantine erected a magnificent Church in memory of the Apostles He preâ—ared himself a Sepulchre in it to the end that after death he might be esteemed woâ—th of the prayers which should be performed there in honour of the Apostles He consecrated a Church to the Apostles believing that their memory would be useful and advantâ—gioâ—s to his Soul. Euseb de vit Coast l. 4. c. 60. 2. When he march'd with his Army he carried with him a portable Tabernacle with Priests and Deacons attending it for the celebration of the Divine Mystertes So Zozomenus hist l. 1. c. 8. vers fin 3. He had Lights burning in the Church in the day time so the Centurists Cent 4. 410. relate it out of Eusebius 4. He Translated to Constantinople the Holy Relicks of St. Andrew Luke and Timothy at which the Devils roar'd as 't is worded by St. Jerome who gives the whole Narration of it cont Vigilant Bullinger likewise mentions it de Orig. error 5. He translated to Constantinople for the preservation of that City certain Relicks of the Cross found near Jerusalem by his Mother Helen Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 1529. Being fully perswaded that That City would be perfectly secure wherein such a Relick as this was preserv'd As Socrates relates it Eccles Hist l. 1. c. 17. 6. Under him Pilgrimages were made to Jerusalem the Empress Helen his Mother went thither to Worship as the Centurists have it Cent. 4. col 457. And Eusebius relates how Alexander who liv'd an hundred years before Constantine went in pilgrimage to Jerusalem upon account both of praying there and also of seeing the places Euseb Hist l. 6. c. 11. 7. In his time 't was decreed in a Council held at Arles that Priests might not marry Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 704. 8. He had in great Veneration Sacred Virgins professing perpetual Chastity Euseb de vit Const l. 4. c. 28. And Socrates says that Helen found at Jerusalem Holy Virgins Consecrated to God whom She so highly honour'd that She her self waited upon them and brought them Meat to the Tables at the Entertainment to which She had invited them Ec. Hist l. 1. c. 17. 9. Vnder him were Monks throughout Syria Palestine and Bithynia and other places of Asia in the Dominion of Constantin So the Centurists Cent. 4. Col. 1294. They say likewise he most greatly Reverenc'd Anthony the Monk who lived in the Deserts of Aegypt Cent. 4. Col. 470. Zozom hist l. 1. c. 13. Socrat. Eccles Hist l. 1. c. 21. 10. He restrain'd himself from all Licenousness and Luxury by macerating himself with fastings and bodily austerities Eus de vit Const l. 2. c. 14. 11. He visited and embraced the Sepulcher of Peter and Paul and laying aside his Imperial State he became a Petitioner to the Saints that they would become Intercessors to God for him St. Chrysost in ep 2. Cor. Hom. 26. 12. He Sign'd his Fore-head with the Sign of the Cross Euseb in vit Const l. 3. c. 2. He honour'd the same Sign Eus in laud. Const He had success of Victory in vertue of it and erected it publickly Euseb de vit Const l. 2. c. 7. l. 1. c. 25. 13. He sate not down at the Council of Nice till such time as the Bishops had beckoned to him Euseb ib. l. 3. c. 10. 14. He judg'd it unlawful for him to undertake the Judgment of Ecclesiastical Causes but commited them over to be decided by Bishops Zozom hist l. 1. c. 16. 15. He procur'd the Synod at Arles where the Petition of the Council to Pope Sylvester was that for the Vniform Observation of Easter day throughout the world He would send forth his Letters to all according to antient Custom Osiand in Epit. c. cent 4. p. 182. 16. He subjected all Christian Churches to the Pope insomuch that Mr. Napper in his Treatise upon the Revelations dedicated to King James I. says After the Year of God Three Hundred the Emperor Constantine subdued all Christian Churches to Pope Sylvester from which time till these our days the Pope and his Clergy has possess'd the outward and Visible Church And ib. P. 43. The Popes Kingdom says he has had power over all Christians from the time of Pope Sylvester and â—he Emperor Constantine for these Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years And ib. p. 145. From the time of Constantine until these our days even One Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years the Pope and his Clergy has possess'd the outward visible Church of Christians Agen ib. p. 68. Between the year of Christ Three Hundred and Three Hundred and Sixteen the Antichristian and Papistical Râ—â—gn began reigning universally and without any debatable contradiction One Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Years God's True Church most certainly abiding so long Latent and Invisible Nay he goes yet further ib. p. 391. During even the Second and Third Ages says he after Christ the true Temple of God and Light of the Gospel was obscur'd by the Roman Antichrist himself 17. He attributed Primacy to the Bishop of Rome as Frigevillaeus Gauuius owns Pal. Chr. ad Regin Angliae Constantine preferr'd says he the Bishop of Rome and of Constantinople before the rest giving the Primacy to the Bishop of Rome before all And upon this score he is charg'd by the same Author p. 34. fatalâ—y to have given Power to the Beast 18. He reprov'd Acesius the Novatian for denying the Power of remitting sin to be given to Priests Centurists Cent. 4. Col 653. and Socrates l. 1. c. 10. 19. Of his Priests assembled to the Dedication of the Church some of them did Preach and interpret the Holy Scriptures But such as were unable to arrive at these things appeased the Deity with unbloody Sacrifices and Mystick Immolations humbâ—y offering up their Prayers to God for the common peace for the Church of God. So Euseb de vit Const l. 4. c. 45. 20. After his death Prayers were offer'd for his Soul So the Centuriators Cent. 4. Col. 454. where they relate that after his death the People pour'd forth Prayers for the Emperors Soul not without Tears So likewise Eusebius who adds that his Body was vouchsafed a Place with the Monument of the Apostles that it might be vouchsafed the Divine Rites and Mystie Service or Sacrifice de vit Const. l. 4. c. 71.
have appear'd some Warm Doctor a Dr. J. S. who from the Text Revel 11. 5. I will come unto thee quickly and will remove thy Candlestick out of his Place except thou repent would have thus pour'd forth the Spirit of Reformation upon them We have no Apprehâ—nsions that either Mahometanism or Pagâ—nism will come into these Kingdoms it is another kind of Removal of our Candlestick that we have reason to fear it is another Religion nigher at hand that is most likely to Displace our Candlestick You all know what Religion I mean it is Popery that most threatens us It is that Restless Busie Religion that has made so much Disturbance in Christendom that has always been and is still so Active by all Means Just or Vnjust by Fraud or Force to insinuate it self into all Places It is this we ought to have most Apprehensions of May God so inspire you that by your Means as effectual Provision as Possible may be made both for the keeping out that Foreign Religion which so little serves the Ends of Christianity and so much disserves the Interâ—st both of King and People and for the more firm Establishment of the Protestant Religion Or in case of this Doctor 's failing would there not have been invited another as Dr. J. T. who would have put the Fathers in mind That it is believ'd by many and not without cause that the Pope and his Faction are the Antichrist That Popery is as bad or worse than Infidelity That the Old Heathen Philosophers were better Teachers of Religion than the Papists That Tully Plutarch and Seneca were much Honester and more Christian Casuists than any that I know of in the Church of Rome That therefore They would make a Lasting Provision for the Security of our Peace and Religion against all the Secret Contrivances and open Attempts of These Sons of Violence Can you think Misrepresenter that Popery having thus overspread the Earth the Light of the Gospel being obscur'd as Mr. Napper says upon Revel p. 191. by the Roman Antichrist himself in the Time of these First Four Councils there could be so many Protestants assembled Bishops Divines and others as you say there were in those councils and yet not one word of Encouragement for the rooting out of Popery and filling their Heads with Fears and Jealousies Come for my part I cannot tell how to imagine this possible And therefore unless as you have shewn me what you call the Corruptions of Popery in those Times so you can likewise shew me there were some Means taken for the preventing the Growth of them by those Fathers I shall never bring my Reason to believe that those Fathers were Protestants Misrepres Means I don't question but there were Means us'd for the Redress of those Evils but we are not upon that Point yet You are only speaking of a Sermon Introductory to those Councils Repres Well and can you shew me from any of the Ancient Historians that there were any such Inspiriting Sermons at those Times If you cannot produce any I shall be apt to believe that either the Preachers then were no Protestants or else that the Fathers were none For you and I that know what Protestancy and Popery is must needs conclude so Misrepres You may e'en drop this Point for I don't pin my Faith upon such Sermons I know indeed as the World goes now there are some who cannot hold their Eyes open at a Sermon but when the Thunder of Papist and Popery breaking from the Pulpit awakens them But 't is likely 't was not so in old Times The Christians heretofore I believe had a greater Portion of the Spirit of Peace and Charity they were contented with following their Text and knew to spend their Glass without the help of these Popular Excursions It may be this Modish Divinity is New taken up only since the making a Faction and Party has crept into the Pulpit with the Gospel But what then The Protestant Religion was Anciently Profess'd and I question not the Fathers of those First Councils were Protestants tho' I can produce no Instance of such Parliamentary Sermons as you speak of Repres Thou art Good-natur'd sometimes Misrepresenter and so Ingenuous as to shame the Devil and speak Truth In Return I le let fall this Point and will enquire no farther after Protestant Sermons in those Primitive Times for the Direction of the First Councils We 'll pass over therefore to the Councils themselves and Examine what kind of Christians the Fathers there assembled were Misrepres Yes this will be to the Purpose upon this Point turns the whole weight of the Controversie if it don't appear they were Protestants I must needs own I have deluded many and that I really am what you call me a Misrepresenter Repres Don't you remember I shew'd you at our last Meeting that the Pope and Those Fathers were too well agreed to be Protestants Misrepres Yes yes I have heard this already The Popes were Good Prelates in those Days they had not then the Mark of the Beast in their Forehead and so that Concludes nothing Repres If They had not then the Mark of the Beast 't was because there were then no such things as Protestants to set it on The Popes had at that Time all Christian Churches Subject to them as Mr. Napper confesses upon the Revelations Nay he says that the Pope's Usurpation and Lording it over all Christian Churches began before the Year of Christ 316 which was before the Time even of the First General Council of Nice held An. 325. Now since for this very Vsurpation as they call it the Modern Protestants Luther's Offspring have set Horns upon the Pope and made him Antichrist if he was not so reputed or esteem'd by the First General Councils there being then the same Reason I must needs conclude 't was because they were then no Protestants You your self cannot deny but if Those Protestants who now say that the Antichristian and Papistical Reign began in those Days had They then liv'd and been Protestants would have said the same then as they do now And since instead of such Opprobrious and Infamous Titles the Fathers then shew'd him the highest Respect and Veneration my Reason assures me Those Fathers were no Protestants Misrepres This is nothing but a Dry Repetition and I am weary of it Advance a Step or I le e'en be gone and leave you Gaping without a Witness Repres Let 's proceed then to the Canons and Decrees of those First Councils And here I demand of you Do you find any Canons or Decrees made by the Fathers of those Councils in opposition to the Doctrines and Tenets which you now condemn as Popish Errors but were then Taught and Practis'd Misrepres What Errors do you mean Repres If you remember Calvin Beza Dr. Field Whitaker the Centurists and other Protestant Writers Censure the greatest part of the Primitive Fathers who liv'd either before or in the
currant Testimonies of the Ancient Fathers are so certain and evident that many Learned Protestants upon this Consideration refuse to stand the Test of their Authorities thinking it far more advantageous to their Cause to give them a general Disclaim Hence Mr. Whitaker affirms the Popish Religion to be patcht up out of the Fathers Errors Cont. Dur l. 6. p. 423. And Dr. Humfrey most severely reprehends Mr. Jewel for his so bold Appeal to the Primitive Fathers affirming that herein Mr. Jewel gave the Papists too large a scope was injurious to himself and after a manner spoil'd himself and the Church Misrepres So then I see you intend to claim the Fathers not only of Constantine 's Time and the Following Ages as Abettors of Popery but likewise Those who in the First Centuries immediately succeeded the Apostles And what Room then do you leave for Protestancy Repres 'T is not only I that claim Them but even the Protestants themselves you see of the precedent Age such who were not asham'd to speak the Truth make a surrender of them laying aside all Pretensions either to Them or their Doctrine And when they have disown'd all the Fathers one by one from Clement Ignatius Irenaeus who liv'd in the Apostles Days and succeeded them in their Function to S. Jerome Austin Leo Gregory the last of which surviv'd the Fifth Century when they have declar'd that Antichrist began his Reign and obscur'd the Light of the Gospel even from the Time of the Apostles I wonder what Room as you say there 's left for Protestancy It savours something of a Mystery methinks call'd Nonsense to say the Protestant Religion is the same Pure Religion as was Anciently and Generally Profess'd amongst the Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church and then to condemn the same Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church for being infected with Popery and giving way to Antichrist Wherefore to avoid these Inconveniences if you 'l take my Advice Misrepresenter I believe you had better pretend no longer Right to the Primitive Fathers but as you have condemn'd the Eight hundred Years next before the Reformation of Damnable Errors and Popish Superstitions to take one step further back and e'en take in the other Six hundred Years too and so condemn them all in the lump from Christ's Time to Luther for being Papists and Popishly affected Never Mince the matter They were all Men you know and subject to Error and when you are once in 't is as easily condemning your Fore-fathers for Fourteen Ages as for Eight Your First Reforming-Apostles were something of this mind and thought it no more difficulty to Censure and Condemn the Primitive Fathers than Those they found in the time of K. Henry 8. but were for Reforming all with the same Hand Hearken a little to your courageous Luther In the Writings says he of Jerome there is not a word of True Faith in Christ and Sound Religion Tertullian is very Superstitious I have held Origen long since Accursed of Chrysostome I make no account Basil is of no worth he is wholly a Monk I value him not of a Hair Cyprian is a Weak Divine The Apology of Philip Melancthon far excels all the Dostors of the Church and exceeds even Austin himself Coll. Mens c. de Patr. Eccles And in another place The Fathers says he of so many Ages have been plainly Blind and most Ignorant in the Scriptures They err'd all their Life-time and unless they were mended before their Deaths they were neither Saints nor pertaining to God's Church To. 2. l. de Serv. Arbit Peter Martyr is of the same mind and therefore says plainly That as long as we stand to Councils and Fathers we shall always remain infected with the same Errors viz. of Popery And certainly Misrepresenter these Your First Setters up for Reformation were in the Right on 't for nothing can possibly so strengthen Protestancy and justifie the Separation as this Levelling Divinity For your Going by halves and pretending to be of the Religion of the First Ages of the Church fills People with Doubts and Scruples whilst looking back upon the Professors of those Times instead of Protestancy they find so much Popery amongst them Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity Represent HOW stands your Head to day Misrepresenter have you Consider'd the Proposal I made you at our last Meeting Are you for disclaiming all Title to the Primitive Church and Huffing those Ancient Fathers as Luther Peter Martyr and others did who designing a Through-Reformation were alike for calling those Great Doctors to an account of the First Ages as they did those they found in the Time of King Henry 8 Or are you for Reforming upon These First Reformers and taking in those Primitive Fathers of the Church for Protestants which They cast off and Condemn'd for Papists Misrepres I have Consider'd this Matter very seriously and taken the Advice of Friends upon the Point And therefore to be short with you I value no more the Saying of Luther than he did Those Ancient Fathers whom he condemn'd as Weak Divines Superstitious and Valu'd not of a Hair. He was so near the Times of Darkness that he could not well look back and make Judgment of any thing behind him Repres Nay I commend you in this 't is only just to serve him in his kind 'T was Tertullian's Saying Curâ—â—nm idem licet Marcionitis quod Marcioni If Marcion has rebell'd against the Church why should his Followers think much to rebel against him And since Luther cast off all Authority and valu'd not the Writings and Doctrine of the most Eminent Fathers of the Primitive Church why shou'd any one think much of undervaluing him by his own Example If Luther could so easily throw by S. Cyprian for a Weak Divine and S. Basil for being wholly a Monk is not this Precedent enough for any Follower of Luther to cast him off for an Apostate Friar and an Ambitious Divine Well but if you Reform upon Luther in this Point and don 't think fit with him to lay aside all the Writings of the Ancient Fathers as Erroneous and Superstitious what do you do with all those troublesome Passages in their Works wherein They are such Positive Asserters of Popish Doctrines that 't is impossible for any Man to take the Authors for any thing but Papists which do's not well suit with your Claim to them as Protestants Misrepres Pish I value no more these Difficulties than Luther did the Fathers that is not of a Hair. If the First Reformers bad their Eyes but half open what 's that to us who have the Noon-light of the Gospel shining upon us
the hands of their Pastors and Teachers who by Commission from the Holy Ghost are put over the Flock to take heed to it and Feed it Act. 20. 28. Was Mary Magdalen depriv'd of the Word of God who plac'd at her Saviour's Feet heard it from his own most Sacred Mouth tho' she had it not in Writing Were those People depriv'd of the Word of God to whom the Apostles were sent to Preach for those several years before any of the Gospel was in Writing 'T was Preaching Teaching and Instructing by Word of Mouth was the Means appointed by Christ for the planting his Gospel and the Apostles that were thus commanded to Preach had never any Command to Write their Writing was only Accidental occasion'd by reason of their Absence from those whom accidentally they desir'd to advise and direct If since then the Papists are taught and instructed in the Word of God the very same way that Christ himself the Unerring Rule taught all those that follow'd him Since they are instructed in it the same Way the Apostles themselves observ'd and commanded by Submitting to and Obeying Those that are Over them and are to give an account of their Souls Heb. 13. 17. Why do you say they are depriv'd of the Word of God or robb'd of the Gospel When you say the Vulgar Sort of the Papists have not the Written Letter of the Gospel promiscuously put into their hands you say True and if you would say no more we should have no complaints against you But when besides this you instill into your Followers that the Papists are left in Darkness that the Word of God is hid from them These Applications and Inferences are the Work of thy Hands Misrepresenter and put into plain English prove no more than that every one that has a Light carried before him by an abler Man than himself does certainly walk in the Dark because he has not the Light in his own Hands Misrepresent Come I am not for disputing If you have any more upon this Subject keep it till next time Your Second Sheet has been blown up in a Reply He there briskly shews that Your Representing is Palliating and Glossing That you grow weary of your Religion as formerly practis'd and defended and that in all likelihood you are hastning a pace to a Reformation Represent 'T is your old Trick when the Reasons begin to come close and pinch to take refuge in starting another Game But let 's hear Is not the Answerer you speak of a Protestant a Member of the Pretended Reformation Why then should he reprove Us if it be true what he says for being weary of our Religion as formerly Practis'd and hastning to a Reformation Is it not commendable to Reform If he thinks that unreasonable which was formerly Practis'd and is of opinion that we are Weary of it and Reform what Reason has he to complain or reproach us for it 'T is a very hard Case that we should be scoff'd at and publickly condemn'd as Abetters of what was formerly practis'd and reprov'd again for being suppos'd to Reform it If it was ill to maintain it can it be ill too to amend it The Papists then it seems whether they are suppos'd to go on as before or to reform are certain to be run down as if Figulus Figulo did extend even to our Case and no Reformer could speak well of another Reformer But do y' hear Misrepresenter here 's a Mystery in this which I am confident you are something concern'd in you must not take it ill if I discover it This new Pretext of the Papists being weary of their Religion as practis'd heretofore and hastning to a Reformation is nothing but a pretty contriv'd Shelter for the Adversaries of the Papists to retire under to save their Reputation They have been declaiming against the Papists these hundred and fifty years and endeavour'd to set out their Religion so deform'd in every Point with Idolatry Superstition and Impiety that to their Credulous Followers they have made it more eligible to be a Jew than a Papist and with their Prophet Luther have convinc'd infinite Numbers that such Christian Princes as own the Pope are four times worse than the Mahometans and that 't is more probable the Grand Vizier fights the Lords Battles and deserves the Good Wishes of Christendom rather than They. In this Charitable Belief have Many bred up their Flock And now since of late through a favourable Ray of Mercy the Papists have had some liberty of shewing themselves and in their Sermons in their Catechisms in their Expositions of their Faith both in Word and Writings there appears nothing of the Monster so long foretold there 's some danger this should beget in the People a Jealousie and Suspicion of their Teachers and be a caution to them of not easily trusting those who have for so many years deceiv'd them What then is to be done Why it must be given out that the Papists are charg'd that they are weary of their Religion as practis'd heretofore that their Way of delivering it is now less Offensive than in former ages And under this Cover the Credit of all such who have painted the Papists out otherwise than They now appear is to be sav'd and they clear'd from the most foul Imputation of Misrepresenting Misrepresent You 'l run on now upon this Topic and say not one word to the Body of the Answer He proves You Pray directly to the Cross from Your Consecrating and Blessing the Cross From your kneeling down to it worshipping and adoring it Represent Nothing of this reaches the Point unless he had first prov'd that every thing that is Blessed and Consecrated and to which a Worship or Adoration is any way paid is directly pray'd to And this will be a difficult Task For as We Bless and Consecrate Crosses so likewise we Bless and Conjecrate Churches Altars Holy Water Chalices and other Vessels dedicated to Holy uses And I don't think he 'll impute it to us that we Pray directly to Churches Altars Holy Water or Chalices There 's a Blessiâ—g or Consecration for Protestant Churches there 's a Blessing and Consecration again for their Sacramental Bread and Wine and yet a Protestant would but smile at the Undertaker who should prove from hence that They Pray to their Churches and their Sacrament because they are Bless'd and Consecrated But we Worship and Adore the Cross and then why says he is it more absurd to pray to the Croâ—s than it is thus to adore it And to this Question let Bishop Jewel a Father of his own Church give him an Answer We only adore Christ says he in his Reply against Hard p. 379. as very God but we Worship also and Reverence the Sacrament we Worship the Word of God we Worship all other things in such Religious wise to Christ belonging And now let my Answerer guess whether every thing that is Worship'd or Ador'd may be directly pray'd to Do's