to large For why shoulde I saie that he beareth a speciall hatred againste this blessed veritee when he serueth them all a lyke yet am I therin somewhat to rasshe to For why shoulde I saie that he serueth them al a lyke when he wold sleie al those for this and not this for them but this for it selfe not muche vnlyke vnto hym whiche for the malice he bare against one innocent slew an whole multitude But as that Herode missed his purpose of that one whoÌ„ he principally intented and to his owne perdicion was but a meane of bringing al the residew to a farre more clerer light then they had before Euen so I doubt not of this Herode likewise but that he shall misse his purpose of this one veritee which to destroy he doth chefly intend And also in the multitude of other beside although to his own perditioÌ„ be but a meane of bringing theÌ„ to a more clere light of knowlage in many one theÌ„ euer they had before That Herode this although persecutors both and both of Christ wherin they gree Yet in the maner of their persecution somwhat they differ For that Herode did persecute him directly and apertly but this Herode consequently occultly vnder with the pretence of the coÌ„trary That Herode sent men to find him where he was not but this Herod seÌ„deth men to lese him where he is Also that Herod laboured to make him be takeÌ„ but this Herode laboured to make him forsakeÌ„ He with manifest cursednesse this with false feigned holinesse He with cruel tyrannie this with wicked heresie Therfore what so euer this yong Herode doth saie as towching the veritees of our Crede neuer thinke that he speaketh it to make vs beleue it nor yet to shew that he beleueth it him selfe For that he saieth is onely to make vs beleue no more for lesse he thought he coulde not And therfore he supposing that if he might stoppe our feith therin from goyng any farther he might then bring his wicked purpose to passe well enough And to be suer therof he wolde by suche a rule discharge vs of our feith in all the veritees of scripture saue onely these .xii. of our Crede as wolde leade vs euen likewise from the feith of them to when he saieth In the other is no perill so that we haue a probable reason ' to dissent from them ' This probable reason as I haue tolde thee is able to discharge vs of all maner of thinges none except wherin so euer it maie be had And therfore as well of all the veritees of our Crede as of any other veritees of scripture beside Cap 24. HERE Sir I do now perceiue that al this while ye take one probable reason for an other and not that probable reason which Frith speaketh of CATH Hah what saist thou I pray the tel me that agein HE. Mary sir I say the probable reason that Frith speaketh of is not the same that ye take it for CATH Trowest thou so HERE No trewly CA. What is it then HE. Ye know well enough that there be two maner of probable reasons of the which the one hath in it a trewth ineuitable And therfore it is or maie be called a probable reason existent The other hath in it no trewth in dede yet is it so like to be trew that it is very hard to auoid or to be otherwise perceiued or taked but for trew in dede And therfore it is or maie bee called a probable reason apparent but not existent CATH I can thee thanke countreyman it is euen very well saide And therfore doest thou thinke that it is this probable reason which is but aparent that Frith speaketh of HERE Yea trewly that I dooe CATH Why so HERE For it can not stande with any reason that it shuld be the other probable reason whiche is trew because as I now perceiue my selfe one trewth can neuer leade vs to dissent from an other but rather binde vs vnto it CATH Doubtles therin thou hittest the nayle euen vpon the head And therfore by that iust and good reason it dooeth well apere that when frith speaking of charticles of our Creede doth saie In the other is no perill so we haue a probable reason to dissent from them It is not that probable reason which hath in it the very trewthe in deede But it is that probable reason which is but only apparent and doth but onely seeme to be trew nothing els â–ª therfore what so euer doth but only seme to be trew without fayle is not trew in dede And what so euer is not trew in dede and yet semeth to be trew is vtterly nothing els but euen a meane to deceiue And therfore the very conclusion is this That wher he saith In the other veritees of scripture is no perill so we haue a probable reason to dissent from them It is no more to say but in the other veritees of scripture is no perill so we haue a deceitfull meane to dissent from them when a probable reason without trewth is none other but as I said a meane to deceiue in dede HERE Nay sir I can not yet for all this beleue that he ment so CATH No not when his owne wordê compelleth vs to take it so For he can not speake of a probable reason and meane it to bee nother trew nor false except thou wilt saie as of many a one it is when he speaketh he wotteh nere what that his wit is not his owne Therfore he meÌ„t it to be either trew or false If he ment it to be trew then is it as much to saie as in the other veritees of scripture is no perill so we haue suche a probable reason to dissent from them as is not possible to be had For it is not possible to haue trewth against trewth Wherfore how foolishe at the leaste is he to suggest vnto vs any such case Therfore of the other side if he ment a probable reason but aparent and not trew in dede Then is it no more to saie but this In the other veritees of scripture is no perill so we haue that probable reason to dissent from them which is so redie and easie to be had that al we ought to blisse vs from it HERE Blisse vs from it what nede that CATH Nedeth it not to blisse vs from that probable reason which might leade vs to dissent from ani veritee of scripture For what is the scripture but godê worde therfore what is any verite of scripture but the verite of godes word And what probable reasoÌ„ is that which ledeth one to dissent froÌ„ any veritee of godê word but only y e falsitee of y e diuels worde Yet herein saith Frith there is no peril This thou seest he moueth vs vnto For with a probable reasoÌ„ he saith we may without any peril dissent froÌ„ all the veritees of scripture saue .xii. and I saie by that
nowe Cap. 25. CATH Tawnte or tawnte not thou shalt neuer fynde how he can otherwise ioigne them together when thou haste all doone And therfore as a man so trowbled and tyred with this case of his owne that he woteth nere whiche waie to turne hym he geueth it ouer quite and falleth to an other matter euen with these woordes But nowe to returne he saith to our purpose if we will examine the authoritees of saint Austen Beda before alleged we shall espie that beside the probacion of this foresaide proposicion thei open the misterie of all our matter to them that haue eien to see Those he meaneth whiche are as blynde as he For saint Austen saith saith he that we and the olde fathers dooe differ as touchynge the bodily meate For thei eate manna and we breadde Now countreiman because thou didst after his allegacion recite the woordes of saint Austen vnto me thy selfe I praie thee hertily therfore remembre them well and tell me trewly whether saint Austen spake there so muche as any woorde of bread as this felow dooth now reporte hym HERE Sir therin to confesse the trewth saint Austen saith that the fathers did eate manna and we an other thynge But in dede he hath not there this same woorde bread CATH Thou maiest see therfore what a iuste parte gentle Frieth plaith herein with saint Austen He thought this woorde bread wolde sownde somewhat more for his purpose then this woorde an other thyng whiche in dede soundeth towarde it nothyng at all And therfore in the stede therof in with breade he cometh but not by and by immediatly after he reherseth the woordes of saint Austen but longe after For had he brought it in streight waie while the woordes of saint Austen were in the minde of the reader he wist wel enough it wolde then be soone perceiued and taken not like a pointe of falshed but euen as it is for very one and the selfe same in dede and therfore he falleth first in to a longe bablyng of his owne phantasticall inuencion And afterwarde when he supposeth the wordes of saint Austen somewhat growne out of remembraunce with the reader Then in cometh the baker with his mustie bread And that he dooth only euen of his owne head without cause or requeste made of any man But onely in liyng to shew what he can wherfore in fewe woordes by my very assent He shall for his great labour be this content what so euer other men saie or will thinke To take his bread with hym and goe ere he drinke HERE What sir me thinke ye fall to rymyng againe CATH In very dede if thou were so able to weigh and consider how wylie and foolishe his falshed is as some men are and doth in dede I doubte not but thou woldest saie thy selfe that rimynge onely were good enough for hym although it were as it is not here without bothe reason and trewthe For he that vseth where alwaie two of them ought to be nothyng els but falshed in dede Is not euen the least of them three more then enough and to good for hym How false dooth he apere once againe in this reporte that he maketh here nowe of saint Austen For coulde not saint Austen hym selfe haue put in this woorde bread as well as this woorde an other thynge if he had so ment or had not seene some good cause to the contrarie was his minde so occupied in treatynge only of this matter that he had forgotten the proper name of bread whiche was moste present redie and apte to be thought vpon in this case or coulde he not call that woorde to remembrance because it was so strange and farre out of vse He sticketh not at manna but directly expresseth it with the proper name therof why staieth he at this woorde bread more then at that was it more strange and farder out of vse then the manna was why dooeth he touche this with no proper name but with a woorde commune and indifferent in maner to all thynges wolde he refraine so redy a thynge and see no cause why if he sawe any what was that Frith will not put that in question vnto vs he wolde not here of it he had leuer haue vs forget it it maketh not for his purpose as hereafter it shal well apere HERE Yet sir in some other places seint Austen hym selfe dooth call it bread plainly CA. Why therfore dooth Frith allege him so here where he dooth not so cal it will not allege hym there where he doth call it so what meneth he by that doth it signifie nothyng I wil wel that saint Austen so doth call it that diuers times but yet neuer without suche a certaine conuenient circumstance with all as declareth what he meaneth by it whiche circumstance Frith perceiueth to make no lesse agaynst hym then this woorde breade semeth to sownde with hym And therfore because the woorde and that circumstance he can not fynde in saint Austen asonder he therfore hym selfe wolde plante the one in some other corner alone as thou seest hym here this craftily assaie where he dooeth knowe that circumstance to bee awaie And therfore this hast thou herde a great parte of the very thynge I maie saie vnto thee whiche as he saith dooeth open the misterie of all his matter to them that haue eien to see Although he meaneth but those as I tolde thee before whiche are as blinde as he wherfore hast thou not nowe euen more then enough to perceiue what a goodly foundacion of his this is to builde any good woorke vpon Cap. 26. HERE To saie the trewthe if it be no better then ye make it he hath not leide it so depely as I thought he had done CATH Naie saie not so for he hath leide it no lesse depe I maie saie to thee then euen downe to the diuell hym selfe And therfore fynde thou no lacke in the depenesse therof for deper could no man laie it in dede then he hath done And yet not withstandynge that and all that I haue declared therof beside Beholde how he glorieth therin and what a face he setteth vpon it as though there were no suche matter at all for in his preface and firste lefe of his booke where he speaketh of his first treatise whiche he wrote in hucker-mucker and not as he confesseth hym selfe to be published abrode he hath these woordes But nowe it is commune he saith abrode in many mens mowthes in so muche that maister Moore whiche of late hath busied him selfe to meddle in al such matters of what zeale I will not difine hath sore laboured to confute it but some men thinke that he is ashamed of his parte And a little after he addeth vnto it these woordes But this I am right sure of that he neuer towched the foundacion that my treatise was builded vpon And therfore sith my foundacion standeth so sure and inuinsible for els I thinke verely he wolde sore haue
therin as God shall instill in euery mans mynde HERE So he sayth but what of that CATH Soest thou not see it plaine in those wordes that he imputeth to God the instilling of that into euery mans mynde whiche he meaneth by this worde therin And againe that he meaneth by this worde therin none other but to gether each part both his and ours wherof he speaketh and those partes of his and ours are so contrary that the one must nedes be trew and the other false wherfore he doth I say impute vnto god thinstilling of these two partes in euery mans minde as well the one as the other so that he will haue God thinstillar as well of falshed as of trewth HERE Tushe sir this is to farre wyde CATH Wherfore HERE Because it nother doth nor yet can folow so for the sence of his wordes is this I leue it he saieth as a thing indifferent to thinke therin that is to say in eache parte as god shall instill in euery mans mynde that is to say as God shall reuele vnto them which parte hath the trewth and which hath not CATH Thou saiest much for hym and as much as may be saide But yet it will not holde for with his indifferencie he hath prouided to muche to the contrary As it maie somewhat apere by these wordes that he saith As god shall instill in euery mans minde ' He saith not in some mens mindes But he saieth ineuery mans minde And the trewth of this matter as he holdeth him selfe God dooth not instill in euery mans minde wherfore his meaning must nedes be of that instilling which dooth reach and extende farder then trewth or els it muste nedes come short of euery mans minde wherfore he doth here impute vnto god the instilling of more then trewth whiche can be none other but falshed HERE Sir I dooe meruaile to here you speake for Frith doth not here meane euery man generally as ye take him but he meaneth euery man specially as in whom god shall instill the trewth of this matter and no farther CATH He is much behoulding vnto the for he could say no better for him selfe But yet it will not helpe for the very same that he calleth here indifferent is nother more nor lesse but euen the same that he leaueth to gods instilling in euery mans minde And that is plaine to be both the partê of his beliefe and ours in this article of the holy sacramente wherof the one is trew and the other false And those two partê doth he so glew together with indifferencie to the intent they shuld so go and be taken together inseperably that he wold not say I leue them as thinges indifferent but saith I leaue it as a thing indifferent putting them both together in the singular numore as one And so referreth it to gods instilling in euery mans minde not the one or the other disiunctiuely but euen ioyntly both together according to his owne saiyng indifferently Wherfore why may I not say as I said that he doth referre vnto God thinstillinge as well of falshed as of trewth in euery mans minde when therin he doth so knit and wrappe â–ª them both together with his indifferencie and that in the singular numbre that we can not by his owne wordes deuide or plucke them asonder HERE I daresay for all this ye do not thinke your selfe that euer he ment god to be thinstiller of any falshed in any mans mind CATH How shulde we know his meaning but by his saiyng his saiyng doth shew and leade vs to this meaninge And therfore what woldest thou haue more HERE Yet I will not beleue that he ment to referre thinstilling of trewth and falshed both vnto god with any suche indifferencie as ye speake of CATH Then thou muste needes graunt that he ment it rather of the one then of the other or els onely of the one and not of the other HERE What els CATH If we vnderstande him to referre vnto god thinstilling rather of the one then of the other or onely of the one and not of the other Then because the one parte is his and the other is ours We must therfore nedê vnderstand him to referre vnto god the instillinge rather of his parte then of ours or els onely of his parte and not of ours because he leaning to his owne parte and not to ours wolde nedes preferre his owne before ours Wherfore because his parte hath the falshed and so hath not ours whiche hath the trewth and so hath not his it must needes folowe that he referreth vnto god thinstilling rather of falshed then of trewth or els only of the falshed and not of the trewth Therfore he leaueth and referreth vnto god thinstilling other of both partes according to his owne saiyng indifferently or els rather of the one parte then of the other leaning not euen eaqually or els only of his owne parte and not of the other euen wholl percially for one of the three it must nedê be yet take of them which thou wilt this hast thou sene what foloweth therof HE. Sir I see that folowe therof which is to badde to be gathered of any mans meaning CATH Whether it be or no yet it doth and must nedes procede of his saiyng And therfore thou maiest well perceiue that it is not so badde but he was as madde to take vpon him to play the parte of suche an indifferent stickler betwene trewth and falshed as wolde nedes perswade suche a brotherly loue to be had betwene them as neither of them shulde condemne other but reserue he saith each others infirmitee to god wherin also it appereth plaine that he wold haue here the infirmitee of falshed which is of thone side reserued to god Therfore what he meaneth by that or how it soundeth in thine eare I say no more but this is he which vnder pretence of his dewtie to beleue the .xii. veritees of the Crede doth denie his dewty of belefe in al the veritees of the whole scripture beside Also this is he that pretendeth to beare with vs in the trewth of our belefe to thintent he wolde haue vs beare as much with him in the falshed of his belefe moreouer this is he which doth say we may beleue that whiche he him selfe doth say is false and yet he him selfe wil not beleue that which both he we do say is trew for we say it is an article of our feith and euen so saith he how be it he holdeth it indifferent to beleue or not beleue but so do not we And therfore he wil not beleue it one whit till we do both agree which he hath brought so nere the point that now it wil neuer be Cap. 29. HERE Well sir ye do but dally with me now how be it if he were liuyng as he is not and might answere for him selfe he wold perchance answere ye otherwise and farre better then I can CA. He wolde if he could but
yet wolde I appose him for al that in one cause more why he did thus diuide al the other veritees of scripture from those .xii. of the Crede HE. Is there an other cause therof yet CA. ye that there is HE. I pray you what is that CA. In the last leafe of his boke his owne wordê doth well declare which are euen these There are many veritees he saieth which are no such articles of our feith HE. Is this all CA. Nay not so But first what articles meaneth he by these no such HE. No such as be of our Crede CATH Well saide And what vetitees dooth he meane here that maie be no suche articles HERE All the other veritees of scripture CATH Then here his woordes againe with those that foloweth and therin let them be iudge for There are he saith many veritees whiche yet maie bee no suche articles of our feithe It is trewe that I laie in yrons when I wrote this how be it I wolde not receiue this trewthe for an article of our feithe for you maie thinke the contrarie without all ieoperdie of damnacion Nowe consider all this well together and thou maiest soone perceiue that this same exaumple of his imprisonment dooth clerely shewe that he meaneth not here by these same veritees that he speaketh of any veritees of scripture but the veritees of all other thynges whiche veritees in general with the veritee of his imprisonment inspeciall he bryngeth for example how he wolde haue vs take all the veritees of scripture saue twelue For as the veritee of his imprisonment maie be no suche article of our feithe as those be of our Crede Euen so after the same sorte wolde he haue all those other veritees of scripture to be no such articles of our feithe nother But the veritee of his imprisonment and all other of that sorte beside are not onely no suche but vtterly no articles of our feithe in dede wherfore no more wolde he haue all the veritees of scripture scantly those twelue excepte of the Crede And yet before this he lefte those other veritees of scripture as articles indifferent But now he wil haue them other none articles of our feithe at all or els the veritees of all other thynges to bee articles of our feithe euen as well as the Therfore what wonder is it though he thus diuide all the other veritees of scripture as of an other kinde from the veritees of the Crede when thei be with him of no more estimacion then be all such other veritees as for example the steple of Paules is higher then the crosse in chepe And because the veritee therof is none article of our feithe for all it is a veritee in dede Therfore by his plaine exaumple no more wolde he haue all the veritees of scripture sauing onely those expressed in the Crede were not a man happie thinkest thou to mete with suche a doctour to teche him his feithe dooest thou not perceiue the mighty power and strengthe of this veritee whiche he wolde so faine ouerthrowe when it geueth him so shamefull faules in euery wicked wile that he dooth attempte against it It is trewe he saith that I laie in yrons when I wrote this how be it I wolde not receiue that trewthe for an article of our feithe And yet without faile when he said so he went more nere to make it one then he was ware of him selfe for he went so nere it that he brought it within one worde of it In so much that if he had put in as the trewth required but this same worde worthely more then he did said it is trew that I lay worthely in yrons wheÌ„ I wrot this without question it had ben then so nere an article of our feith in dede That who so euer wolde not beleue it knowing the matter thei could not be but in great ieoperdie of damnacion For doubtles those that thinke hym vnworthily prisoned knowing the cause why be of the same most damnable opinion that he was of him selfe god of his great mercy graunt them sone to amende it for how damnable that opinion is it maie well and sufficiently apere and it were but by these his reasons as to some thei seme which we haue discussed hitherto alredie how be it god willynge in the residewe yet to come it shall be no doubte to the most affectionate frendê that he hath onely those excepte whiche gate it by the same meane and holdeth it by the same tenour that he came by it and helde it him selfe HERE Well sir if there bee no better meanyng in Frithes woordes then ye haue declared hitherto I meruaile greatly that euer he wolde speake them as he dooth CATH Dooest thou mernaile at that HERE I can not choose CATH Then why doest thou not meruaile at an other thyng which is a thousande tymes more meruellous then that is HE. What is that CATH That euer suche a number wolde folowe him as there hath done and take him for so plaine beyng so deceitfull Take him so simple being so traftie Take him so wise being so foolish Take him so trewe beyng so false And of that numbre so many welthie as men dooth deme so many wise as them selfes dooth wene so many politike as thei seme and yet spie not his falshed in all this time what meruell maie be compared vnto it for where as the wisedom of one shuld ouerthrow y e foolishnes of many here the wisdome of many is clene ouerthrowen with the foolishnes of one And also where as the falshed of one shuld geue place to the trewth of many here hath the trewth of many cleane giuen place to the falshed of one who is able sufficiently to describe the wonderfulnes of this mattier Wherfore if thou fall to meruailynge meruaile at this whiche maie bee called a meruaile alone And therfore because in consideracion of our longe talke it is nowe time to drawe to an ende Remember that I haue declared vnto thee although not all nor halfe nother but yet enough and enough for thee to perceiue what maner of foundacion it is wherin Frith bosteth and glorieth so greatly that he is not ashamed in reproche of master Moore and auauncynge hym selfe to saie as I tolde thee before these woordes This am I right suer of he saith that he neuer touched the foundacion that my treatise was builded vpon And therfore sith my foundacion standeth so suer and inuincible for els I thinke verily he wolde sore haue laboured to haue vndermined it I wyll therupon builde a little more c. And againe This was the foundacion he saith of my firste treatise that he hath lefte vnshaken whiche is a great argument that it is very trewe For els his pregnant wit coulde not haue passed it so cleane ouer but wolde haue assailed it with some sophisticall rauellacion c. Howe false a riar he sheweth hym selfe herein I take none other but euen him selfe to witnesse in
But he woulde haue saied we be bound not to beleue it CATH Therfore what is this to the purpose of our bond of beliefe If he counde haue proued that suche as dooe not beleue it were in no dainger therfore it had bene then an other matter But to say seeing many beleue it and as who say therfore we maie laufully chose what noddy wolde so saie or suppose but he HERE Sir it is not that nother which Frith intendeth to shew it by CATH What then HERE That they receiue it to their damnacion CATH Doth that shew that we be not bounde to beleue it HERE Cleerly me thinke CATH Euen as though the bonde of beleuing were enough to put away the danger of vnworthy receiuing but yet I pray thee looke better vpon it And tell me in good ernest whether it dooeth not seeme rather to shew that we be not bound to receiue it then not bounde to beleue it HERE Receiue it what we be bounde therto by the plaine wordes of the gospel CATH That I graunt to be trew And therfore tell me whether of them both dooe Frithes wordes seeme rather to shew for although bare wordes of shewing bee farre from the strength of dew prouing yet if there bee any thing in his shewing that might sound herein ageinst our dewtie of beleuing dowtles it dooeth sound ten times more ageinst our dewtie of receiuing then ageinst that And yet betwene the dutie of receiuing and the deutie of beleuing herein the difference is such that vnworthinesse of maners may and ought for the time exclude the dewtie of receiuinge But so it can neuer doe the deutie of beleuinge at any time Wherfore in this much hitherto we haue found vnder the onely pretence of a great worthy prouinge nothinge els in deede but his onely bare leane and naked saiyng without reason trewth wit or learning Cap. 10. HERE Ye but yet ye muste take that foloweth with all and then iudge as ye see cause For ye know he addeth vnto it this It is not his presence he saieth in the bread that can saue me but his presence in my hert through feithe in his bloud which hath washed out my sinnes and pacified the fathers wrath towarde me Now sir weigh this and the other together CATH Nay the other we haue weighed well enough alredie And therfore what shall we weigh in this but that it is none article of our feith which we are bounde to beleue vnder paine of damnacion that the very bodie of our sauiour Christ is presently in heauen HERE I meruaile that ye will so say For Frith hath here no such wordes CATH No it is enough for him so to teach although it bee in other wordes For when he doth saie it is not his presence in the bread that can saue hym what dooeth he els intende but therby to proue that we are not bound to beleue it HERE That I graunt CATH And dooeth it not euen as muche against our beliefe of his very bodily presence in heauen HERE I thinke not CATH Then harken well what I shall say for the selfe same wordes that he speaketh here of Christes bodely presence in the sacrament I will speake of his bodily presence in heauen and then tell me thy selfe whether it be as I say or not HERE With a good will CATH Then this It is not his presence in heauen that can saue me But his presence in my herte through feith in his bloude whiche hath wasshed out my sinnes and pacified the fathers wrath toward me Wherfore it is none article of our feith which we are bound to beleue vnder peine of damnacion How saiest thou to it now HERE I saie the plaine wordê of the scripture dooe binde vs therin to the contrary CATH And therfore I saie the plaine wordes of the scripture is ageinst this which Frith dooeth teache And for a more clere vnderstandinge therof when he saieth it is not his presence in the breade that can saue me but his presence in my heart thorow feyth in his bloud and therof wold haue it folow that it is none article of our feith which we are bounde to beleue vnder peine of damnacion I aske no more of him but what of his preseece vpon the Crosse what of his presence in the Sepulcre what of his presence among his disciples what of his presence now in heauen with his presence in many cases moe doest thou not clerely see that this lesson of his doth renne directly euen as wel ageinst the beliefe of al these as ageinst the belife of his presens in this holie sacrament Therfore if his seiyng make any thing against this it maketh as much ageinst al the rest If it make nothing against al the rest then it maketh nothing against this HERE Sir the presence of these thingê that ye speake of are all gone and paste sauyng his presence in heauen CATH Ye but the feithe and belefe of them all amonge vs is nother gone nor paste for we stande bownde to that neuerthelesse And that is it whiche Frithe attempteth to oppugne and ouerthrowe And therfore what so euer he doothe as I saide against the belefe of one of theim without faile he dooth against the belefe of them all HERE Sir ye maie make of euery mans tale what he luste if ye bee so disposed CATH Why saiest thou so Thou maiest easely perceiue that I make none other of his tale then therof must I nedes folowe And therfore where he goeth farder and saieth of the contrarie parte If I dooe not beleue his bodily presence in the breade and wyne that shall not damne me but the abcence out of my herte through vnbelefe Looke nowe thy selfe if he might not as well haue said If I dooe not beleue his bodily presence in heauen that shall not damne me but the absence out of my herte through vnbelefe How saiest thou Is it not well proued of hym that Christes bodily presence in the sacrament is none article of our feith whiche we are bounde to beleue vnder peine of damnacion when he proueth vtterly by the same reason as he did before euen as muche and no lesse of his bodily presence in heauen But where he saithe If he dooe not beleue it that shall not damne hym how will he proue that or why dooth he not so muche as pretende or seme to goe aboute it But without faile because his heretical lie therin is so great that it will with no maner of thyng be couered but onely with his fals feith whiche hideth it from hym and suche other as he is and from no man els And therfore I praie thee marke well what he saith immediately folowyng in the same lefe for his woordes be these Now if they wold here obiecte he saith that though it be trewth that the abcence out of the bread could not damne vs yet are we bound to beleue it because of gods worde which who beleueth not as muche as in hym lieth
maketh god a lier And therfore of an obstinate minde not to beleue his woorde maie bee an occasion of damnacion How saiest thou dost thou not see what a foolishe phantasticall obiection he hath here feigned of our behalfe as though we wold hold and obiecte that the absence out of the bread as he calleth it were a trewth when that is his parte not ours For he plaieth that parte him selfe so do not we but the contrarie And againe as though we wold obiect that we are bounde so to beleue it that by gods worde but where or which of gods wordes that is he telleth vs not Wherfore this propre obiectioÌ„ of his madde phantasticall feignyng I will passe ouer leste I shuld with more talke rather hied then disclose the foolishnes of it And therfore beholde it well thy selfe for I leue it vnto thee euen as it is because it appereth more foolish of it selfe then I can declare with all I can saie And yet because his solucion therof dooth answere it so well as though thobiectioÌ„ it selfe had neuer bene imagined thou shalt here it to thintent thou maiest perceiue what a colour he dooth caste vpon the matter vnder the onely pretence of an answere and nothyng els To this we maie answere he saith that we beleue gods woorde and knowlage that it is trewe but in this we dissent whether it be trewe in the sense that we take it in or in the sence that ye take it in and we saie agayne that though ye haue as it appereth vnto you the euident woordes of Christe And therfore consiste in the barke of the letter yet are we compelled by the conferryng of the scriptures to gether within the letter to serche out the minde of our sauiour which spake the woordes And we saie thirdly that we doe it not of an obstinate minde For he that defendeth a cause obstinately whether it be trew or false is euer to be reprehended But we doe it to satisfie our consciences whiche are compelled by other places of scripture reasons and doctours so to iudge of it And euen so ought you to iudge of your partie and to defende your sentence not of obstinacie but by the reason of scriptures whiche cause you so to take it and so oughte neither partie to dispise other For eche seketh the glorie of god and trewe vnderstandynge of the scripture I doubt not but here thou seest a wonderfull charitee in this man whiche swadeth so sore to suche a concorde to be had betwene trewth and falshed that he wolde haue neither partie despise other for eche he saith seketh the glorie of god the trew vnderstandyng of the scripture And therfore I woulde yet knowe of hym when or where that partie should finde the glorie of god and the trewe vnderstandyng of the scripture whiche seeketh it in falshed HERE what speake you of that when Frith meaneth no suche partie CATH Wilt thou saie so is not that one of the parties that Frith speaketh of which holdeth with Christê bodily presence in the sacrament and that to be beleued vnder peine of damnacion and the other which holdeth directly the contrarie And therfore if the one be trew the other must nedes be false yet eache he saieth seketh the glorie of god and the trew vnderstandynge of the scripture And I saie then the one in trewthe and the other in falshed speede as they can for so it is when they be in two directe contraries But where our sauiour Christ saieth vnto vs Querite inuenietis that is to saie seeke and ye shall find although he ment therin none other thing then apperteigneth to the glorie of god and the trew vnderstandynge of the scripture yet because he did not there apoynt vs dirâ—â—â—… with apert and speciall wordes wherin we shulde seeke it Frith perchaunte toke hym to meane it indifferently as well in falshead as in trewth And that maie well bee the cause why that he for his part sought the glory of god the trew vnderstandinge of the scripture in falshed And lefte vs to seeke it in trewth where withall he would not meddle how be it litle nede he had so to dooe for therin found we it longe before And that is the cause he liked vs so muche the wors And therfore yet marke the wilie Raynard wher about he goeth HERE where about CATH Euen to bring both the parties to suche an indifferencie that neither shuld despise other while his parte might haue a quiet leisure to creepe in and cleane thrust out the tother for well he wost for all his false dissimulation that thei coude not continew together Therfore as touthing all the rest of his answere beside weigh his obiection and that well together And as in folly and falshed thou shalt not fynd them a sonder Euen so in any point els thou shalt not bring them together wherfore now because we haue hitherto spent some more tyme then neded in an errour so plaine and yet not halfe so much as the foolishe falshed therof wold require if it shuld be fully declared looke if he haue ought els that semeth to the any thing more to mainteine or make for his euill purpose then this bringe it forth and thou shalt here what I will say to it Cap. 11. HERE Me thinke sir he hath for all this in a certeyne place such a strong reason for his purpose herein as all the world can not auoyde CATH what so euer it be thou maiest yet by this that is passe bee sure of one of these two that either it is not trew in dede or els although it be yet it maketh nothing for hym HE. By that reason it can make nothinge for him whether it by trew or false CATH That can be no lie for there is no trewth that can trewly make with falshed HERE Yet ye shall here what it is CATH With a good will HERE In the .iii. leafe of his boke euen these be his wordes And first that it is he saieth none article of our feith necessary to be beleued vnder peine of damnacion maie thus be farther confirmed The same feith shall saue vs which saued the olde fathers before Christes incarnacion But they were not bound vnder peine of damnacion to beleue this poynt Therfore it shall folow that we are not bound therto vnder peine of damnacion The first part of mine argument is proued by saint Austen ad DardanuÌ„ And I dare boldly say almost in an hundreth places For there is I thinke no proposicion whiche he dothmore often inculcat then this that the same feith shall saue vs which saued our fathers The second part is so manifest that it nedeth no probacion for how could they beleue that thing which was neuer said nor done and without the worde they could haue no feith vpon the treuth of these two partê must the conclusioÌ„ nedê folow Now sir how say ye to this gere CATH Countreiman as thou saiest
incertaine places beside what shall we or can we make of hym els but euen as he maketh of him selfe a very false harlot in deede And therfore as towchinge the other parte of his plaie what a foole was he to chose saint Austen among all other to bee his witnesse herein when there was none more vnmete for his purpose then he as belike he did suspect and yet wold haue him neuerthelesse for his foolishe phaÌ„sie trusting that with the sound of his name to do somewhat whereas with his whole saiyng he coulde doe nothynge But yet notwihstande all his great shifte made to kepe hym from herynge wherein he sheweth hym selfe as he is yet was he brought by meane vnto it at laste and then tolde his tale so directly against the peruers purpose of Frithes wicked folie that nothyng could be saide more plaine to the contrarie as thou hast nowe herde thy selfe alredie Wherfore consider that thou haste here nowe for one pece of thy frendê falshed suche a manifeste profe as I dare saie nother thou nor any frende that he hath beside is able to caste any colour of excuse therupon excepte it be with tushe tushe no no or some other wriglynge and startlynge talke from one thynge to an other till vndiscussed the matter be wrapte vp euen all confusely together as your common practise is alwaie to dooe Therfore let this be sufficient as it is in dede to knowe what he is Cap. 19. HERE Naie sir not so For he wolde not call it the very foundacion of all his matter if he had not somewhat els to make for hym then all this CA. I praie thee what is that HE. No lesse then an other saiynge of saint Austen whiche maketh as well for hym as any thyng that ye herde yet CA. I thinke thou saidest not a trewer worde to daie HE. Naie sir I wot what you meane by that wel enough but I meane this that it maketh for him very wel CA. Who wold beleue that knowyng so much as thou hast herde HE. That is no matter saint Austens woordes he saith be these As many as in that maÌ„na did vnderstande Christe did eate the same spirituall meate that we dooe But as many as sought onely to fill and satisfie their hunger with that maÌ„na did eate and are deade And likewise the same drinke For the stone was Christe CATH What I praie thee will Frith make of this HERE Mary sir ye shall here his owne woordes Here you maie gather he saith of saint Austen that the maÌ„na was vnto them as the breade is vnto vs. And likewise that the water was to them as the wyne is to vs whiche anone shall appere more plainly CA. So it had nede For he sendeth vs here to a gatherynge wherin I see not what we can gather more trewly then euen the same of him that we haue gathered before HERE No sir for he dooth alege that saint Austen saith furder these woordes Moyses also did eate manna Aron and Phinees did eate of it and many other did there eate of it whiche pleased god and are not deade Why so Because thei vnderstode the visible meate spiritually Thei were spiritually an hungered thei tasted it spiritually that thei might spiritually be replenished thei did all eate the same spirituall meate and all did drinke the same spiritual drinke Euen the same spirituall meate albeit an other bodely meate For thei did eate manna and we eate an other thynge but thei did eate the same spiritual whiche we dooe And thei all dranke the same spiritual drinke Thei dranke one thynge and we an other but that was in the outwarde apparence whiche for all that did signifie the same thing spiritually how dranke thei the same drinke Thei saith the apostle dranke of the spirituall stone folowyng them and that stone was Christe Now sir al this doth he allege of saint Austen CA. Yea but doest thou recite it trewly as he doth allege it HE. Euen as he doth translate it out of latine into englishe looke in his booke when ye will And therfore what saie ye to it CA. This same I sai to it that al this same difficultee of this same point after this same maner is put this same waie clene out of doubte if men take this same trewth as it is in dede y t this same errour of this same felow made hym of this same blindnesse that he was of this same iugemeÌ„t that this same worde the same could none otherwise be vnderstande but euen the same waie that he thought the same shuld draw men from the same feith which al trew christen people doth holde bringe them into the same heresie whiche the same Frith hym selfe doth teache And all this same I saie did he by reason of this same worde the same For is he not as one in a maze now in the same path where he began And therfore euen iuste in the same case that he was than For is there any other cause why he doth allege these wordes of saint Austen but that he saith thei did eate and drinke the same spiritual meate drynke that we dooe For what if saint Austen had put this worde an other in the place of this woorde the same or els had left them both cleane out HE. Sir that had ben an other matter it had bene then nothyng for Frithes purpose And therfore he wolde not alleged it if it had ben so CA. Thou saist very trew And therfore all that semeth herein any thyng to make for him thou maiest well perceiue doth only reste as I saide in this same woorde the same And haste thou not herde enough what a proper principle it is beyng vndefined to proue or conclude any thyng by Neuerthelesse WheÌ„ Frith him selfe doth take this same spiritual meate and drynke to be the bodie bloode of Christe as in the iiii leafe of his booke his owne wordes therof are these This Abraham he saith did both eate his bodie and ' drynke his bloode through feith ' I wolde therfore wit of hym whether he take the same meate drinke to be only spiritual not corporal or els both spiritual also corporal HE. He doth take it to be both so do I. CA. As how HE. Euen as he doth here allege of S. Aust y t thei did eate maÌ„na and we an other thiÌ„g which thingê are both corporal wherein that same which thei did and we dooe eate is one spirituall meate And therfore that whiche thei did and we dooe eate is both spirituall and corporall CATH Thou plaiest Frith with me now in dede For my question is one and thou answerest me to an other I aske not of their corporall meate nor of ours nother whiche to them was and to vs is subiecte to the eie and other outwarde sences but I aske onely of the spirituall meate whiche was to them and is to vs as saint Austen saith all one and the same Therfore whether that be onely
the olde fathers neuer beleued it and yet did eate Christ in feith both before thei had the māna and more expresly through the manna And with no lesse fruite after the manna was ceased And albe it the manna was to them as the sacrament is to vs and they eate euen the same spirituall meate that we dooe yet were they neuer so madde as to beleue that the manna was chaunged into Christes owne natural bodie but vnderstode it spiritually that as the outward man did eate the material manna which comforted the bodie so did the inwarde man through feith eate the bodie of Christ beleuynge that as manna came downe from heauen and comforted their bodies so shulde their sauiour Christ which was promised them of god the father come downe from heauen and strength their soules in euerlasting life redemynge them from their synne by his death and resurrection And likewise dooe we eate Christe in feith both before we come to the sacrament and more expresly through the sacrament And with no lesse fruite after we haue receiued the sacramente and neede no more to make it his naturall body then the manna was but might muche better vnderstande it spiritually that as the outwarde man dooeth eate the natural breade whiche comforteth the bodie so dooeth the inwarde man through feith eate the bodie of Christ beleuing that as the bread is broken so was Christes bodie broken on the crosse for our synnes whiche comforteth our soules vnto life euerlastinge And as that feith did saue them without beleueing that manna was altered into his body euen so dooeth this feith saue vs although we beleue not that the substance of breadde is turned into his naturall bodie For the same feith shall saue vs whiche saued them And we are bound to beleue no more vnder peine of damnacion then they were bounde to beleue Now sir this is part of his minde CA. Thou saiest euen trewth And therfore if thou marke it well somewhat after his owne wordes thou maiest of this place plainly perceiue not onely by the presence of this worde not onely but also by the absence of this worde but also that he at the first intended to shewe vs two thinges The one of the whiche noted with this worde not onely he hath here as thou seest declared all redy But the other depending therupon and ought to be noted with this worde but also he dooth vtterly passe ouer and let it cleane goe For he renneth so wonderous faste and can not tell whither that he forgetteth the one ende of his tale while he telleth vs the other or els he doth purposely reserue and kepe it in store till he speake with vs hym selfe to shew vs that and more HERE Tushe sir ye doe but mocke him now CATH Why countreiman what woldest thou haue me do For to pitee him thou knowest wel it is to late To praise him there is in dede no cause To holde my peace in this matter were to farre ageinst conscience And what remayneth but alwaie to speake as he dooeth minister occasion Therfore where he saieth that the old fathers were neuer so madde as to beleue that the manna was changed into Christes owne naturall body for what purpose doth he tel vs that when euery man koweth it as wel as he CA. I shal tel you for what purpose he wold haue vs take the bread as the fathers tooke the manna And as they were neuer so madde as to beleue that the manna was changed in to Christes owne naturall bodie so he wold not haue vs so madde as to beleue that the substance of bread is changed into Christes naturall body nother For the same feith he saith shal saue vs which saued thē Cap. 22. CATH Thou saiest well for that is his purpose in dede And therfore as touching his principle of the same feith I haue told the enough before And as concerning this changeing he speaketh of thou and I will talke therof at large when we come to the place conuenient Therfore now to this that he doth here accompte all those which beleue that the substance of the bread by the operacion of the holy ghost in the holy consecracion is changed into the very body of Christ to be mad in so doing who be thei but al Englishmen Welshmen Irishmē Frenchmen Scottes Danes Douchmen Spaniardes Portingales Italiās with al other trew Christen nacions for doubtles al those dooe so beleue HERE Nay sir not all For all can not be said of Englishmen only nor yet of diuers other perticular nacions beside For some among them beleue otherwise CA. And pretely spoken For is it said amisse that such and such feldes are all corne because they are not eache of them without some and to much darnell in and amonge them what if there be founde such to many as Frith was among Englishmen and other trew Christen nacions beside doth that let the trewth of this that all those nacions beleue otherwise then he did that is to say that the very substance of the breade through the operacion of the holy ghoste in the holy consecracion is turned into the very blessed body of Christ al those multitudes Frith thou seest doth recken therin to be madde He dooeth not except al or any trew christen princes about whom there lacketh not men in wit grauitee and lernyng of the beste sorte that maie be had which seme not of al men to be lightly deceiued wherof in this matter specially thei are vtterly most lothe Therfore dooth the sadnes of Frithe shewe vs madnesse in all christen princes in all their prudent and wise councellours and in all their multitudes of peoples innumerable vnder them or els doth not the sadnesse of all those shewe vs the wonderfull madnesse of hym I require no answere of this but consider it well with thy selfe And therfore what is there more in all his woordes whiche thou hast here rehersed but onely his owne swasions and foolish continuall daunsing about this same woorde the same wherwith thou seest he wolde conclude confirme what so euer he babled before Neuerthelesse yet forthe he goeth shewing vs in the syxt lefe of his booke after his fantasie how the olde fathers did beleue saiyng There is no poynte in our Creede but thei beleued it as well as we dooe and those articles onely are necessarie vnto saluacion Who hath herde suche an other teacher For of this it must nedes folowe that it is not necessary vnto saluacion to beleue that Christe is equall with the father For whiche of the .xii. articles is that Those .xii. onely he saith are necessary vnto saluacion And this that Christe is equall with the father is none of the .xii. Wherfore the belefe therof is not necessarie vnto saluacion Also it is not necessarie vnto saluacion to beleue it a damnable thynge to peruerte and deprauate the harde saiynges of saint Paule and other scriptures although saint Peter doth saie the contrarie because it is none of
we do not so beleue Those .xii. onely be necessarie saith he This veritee thou seest is none of them although as all other it maie bee reduced vnto them whiche he will none of in any case lest that whiche he laboureth to ouerthrowe shoulde so by that meanes bee brought in likewise after his minde therfore without this we maie be saued That is to wit without the belefe that the commaundementê of god be good or ought to be obserued kepte who will not see that this were enough to declare what a teacher he is or who hath so dull a wit that he can not perceiue how diuelish his purpose is and it were but only by this that he can finde no waie to come to it but only by such damnable pathes as this is Beholde how faine he wold proue it no nede so to beleue in the blessed sacrament of the alter as all trew Christen people beleueth In very dede so faine that to bryng it to passe with al he sticketh not here as thou seest thy selfe to leue vs clene without the nede of any and of all the veritees of holy scripture mo then bare .xii. for in those .xii. veritees of our Crede he thought surely that this veritee of the blessed sacrament could not be founde And therfore he dooth saie that thei onely are necessarie vnto saluacion to thintent he might vtterly therby exclude the nede of this whiche he wolde so cleane put awaie that euen for that cause he excludeth no lesse then all the reste saiynge The other pointes conteined in scripture although thei be vndoubted veritees yet maie I bee saued without them And this he declareth in euery condicion that is to saie whether he beleue them or not whether he vnderstande them or not and whether he misconstrew them or not All these I saie saith he maie be doone without any ieoperdie of damnacion Cap. 23. HERE Ye but sir ye must take his conclusion with all CATH What is that HERE Marie this Therfore we beleue he saith these articles of our Crede in the other is no perill so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them CATH Doubtles a conclusion euen like hym selfe How be it I muse not so muche therat nor yet at hym nother as I dooe euen at thee HERE At me why so CATH Without faile because thou dooest no more wonder at his blynde madnesse or madde blyndenesse choose thee whether How bee it I dooe partely consider the cause For surely if thou thy selfe were not by hym somewhat combred with the same clowde of darkenesse wherin he was inuolued and wrapped hym selfe thou shouldest easely besyde his wily wickednesse perceiue hym tumbled into the greattest foolishnesse that euer thou sawest any man For wheÌ„ he saith in the other is no perill so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from theÌ„ maie not I sai O folish Frith what if we haue none nor none can haue how then how is it possible to haue any probable reson to dissent froÌ„ any veritees most special aboue al froÌ„ any veritees of holy scripture For what reason is there probable in dede but onely that whiche is trewe in dede and can any one trewth be against an other Therfore if thou marke this matter well thou shalt finde that by these wordes he setteth vs euen at as muche libertee with our feith in all the .xii. veritees of our Crede as he doth in all the other For in them is no perill nother so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them HERE Why sir we maie not dissent from them in no wise CATH What not with a probable reason what thynge is there that a probable reason dooth not bynde me to dooe For what is a probable reason but that whiche maie iustly be proued to be trewe And shall not trewth leade me trewly to and fro in euery condiâ—ion HERE Ye but there can be no suche probable reason to leade as from those veritees of our Crede CATH Why not from them as well as from the other veritees of scripture beside bee thei more trewe then any of the other are How be it thow speakest this of thine own head For Frith saith no more but that we maie dissent from all the veritees of scripture saue .xii. so that we haue a probable reason therto And I saie the same by that reason of those xii also if we haue a probable reason therto For what ought I to refraine whiche a probable reason will leade me vnto am I not alwaie bownde vnto trewth and what other thing is a probable reason Therfore it must nedes folow by his reason that in these veritees of our Crede is no perill so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them Thus taketh he from vs the nede of all the veritees of scripture saue .xii. so that by the same reason he taketh awaie the nede of them to And therfore he semeth to except them in woordes but not in dede HERE Yes sir for els he wold not saie this Those articles are onely necessarie vnto saluacion For them am I bound to beleue and am damned without excuse if I beleue them not CATH What of this thou thinkest by reason of these wordes that he goth about to make vs beleue that we be bounde to the veritees of our Creede HERE what els For what purpose shoulde he speake it but for that or to shew vs how he doth beleue them him selfe CA. I thought euen as much when he intendeth none of them both For his purpose is not to make vs beleue them but onely to make vs to beleue no moe For to go about to make vs beleue so much is one thinge and to go about to make vs beleue no more is an other thing Therfore his intent is as who saie there to stoppe in our feith that it shulde goe no farther and not to bringe it thether nor there to vpholde it For although his blindnesse be so great and manifest that euen the very same which he laboureth to improue and ouerthrow he confesseth to be a veritee of scripture or els wolde he neuer cal it an article of our feith as in the .xvi. lefe of his booke he dooth in deede saiyng these wordes For though it be an article of our feith yet it is not an article of our Creede in the .xii. articles whiche are sufficient for our saluacion Although his blindnesse I say be so great that he him selfe dooeth confesse this a veritee of scripture which he laboreth so sore to improue yet because he thought it coulde not be found among the .xii. veritees of our Crede euen therfore wolde the catchpoule as it were in a pinfolde pyn vp therin our feith from all the veritees of scripture beside and all to thintent it shulde not come at this veritee of the holy sacrament and that for the speciall hatred he beareth vnto it Howe bee it in so saiyng I confesse my selfe somewhat
rule from them to Therfore while Frith doth here in plaine wordes shew vs a way to dissent from the veritees of holy scripture whiche is the worde of god what other thing therin doth he els but vtterly shew vs the waie of the diuell How be it herein he teacheth vs but a poynt of his owne facultee For by this probable reason founde he the meanes to dissent and come awaie from the veritees of holy scripture him selfe For els without fayle he had bid in them still By this probable reason also riseth the first heretike of euery secte And by this probable reason deceiueth he an other By this probable reason gender they mo and mo By this probable reason grow they sometyme to a multitude And by this probable reason they continew to the disquietnesse of the faithfull flocke of Christ Also by this probable reason which is but apparent which semeth iuste and is not which promiseth trewth and paieth not which beareth in hand to dooe that it can not By this probable reason I say heretikes are enticed perswaded and led from the veritees of scripture from the veritees of godê woorde and from the veritees of euerlasting life And by this probable reason they are prouoked and set a woorke to crie to the people and say beware of deceiuers beware of false teachers beware of subtill Sophisters And what other thing therin do they els but ignoraÌ„tly and euen directly against their owne purpose moue the audience to be ware of them of no men els For such and the same are thei in dede none other Therfore let vs now returne to his third case againe brefly to see what we left therin behind he saith Or be it in case that I here them and vnderstand them and yet by the reasoÌ„ of an other text misconstrew them Here he driueth me to such a streit that I can not tel whether I maie more wonder at him or at his case For tell me if euer thou herdst of any such braine How is it possible for any man to misconstrew the same which he doth vnderstand Is it one thing to vnderstand and an other to know Is any man therfore able to take a thing otherwise then he knoweth it is Doth not the knowlage or vnderstanding of a thinge cleane put away the miscoÌ„struing therof For whereof commeth misconstruing but of misunderstanding neuerthelesse Be it in case he saith that I vnderstande them and yet by the reason of an other text misconstrew them Here thou seest plaine that he putteth vnderstanding and misconstruing both together in one respect and one case and that by the reason he saieth of an other text Therfore whether he meaneth the veritee of that other text to be vnderstanded or not vnderstanded let vs trie what foloweth of each of them and theÌ„ we shal be sure to come to his meaning at the least in one of them Therfore if he meane it vnderstanded then this must folowe that the vnderstanding of the veritee of that same one other text maie put away the vnderstanding of all the veritees of scripture .xii. except when it may bring the vnderstander to the misconstruction of them as by his words it may when of them al he saith Or be it in case that I here them and vnderstand them ' and yet by the reason of an other text misconstrew them ' So that the trew vnderstanding of that same other text is but a meane to make the veritees of all the rest to be misconstrued and that of him that vnderstandeth them And what is that to say but this that the trewe vnderstanding of one text maie bringe a man from the trewe vnderstanding of of an other when it bringeth him to the misconstrewyng therof And therfore doest thou not see what good reason and trewth he teacheth in this case hast thou heard of this same lesson before that the trew vnderstanding of one text shuld plucke away the trew vnderstanding of an other from him that hath it I haue herde that the trew vnderstanding of one text might induce and bring to light the trew vnderstanding of an other But I neuer herd a fore now that the trew vnderstanding of one might misconstrew so put away the trew vnderstaÌ„ding of an other when trewth as I tolde the before is a meane to come by trewth not a meane to misconstrew put awai trewth for so were trewth against trewth and vnderstanding against vnderstanding And therfore Frith doth here to saue al vpright make miscoÌ„struction which is the great enemy of them both to be as a stickeler betwene them wherfore of the other side if he meane y t the verite of this other text which may make this misconstruction is not vnderstanded then must this folow that the ignorance and not vnderstanding of the trewth of one text may put away the knowlage and vnderstanding of the trewth of an other text as it must nedes dooe if it maie make it misconstrued as Frith dooeth hold it maie And so shall blinde ignorance be more mighty and able to expell and put away clere and perfite knowlage from him that hath it then persite knowlage is able to expell and put away it as though the ignorance of one thing were the driuer away of the knowlage of an other whiche is an ouerthwart rule contrary to all reason and trewth For it is the naturall propertee and strengthe of knowlage where so euer it commeth to subdew and expell ignorance and not of ignorance to ouerthrow and expell knowlage How be it I will not say but ignorance maie and commonly doth in many cases kepe trewth from knowlage and vnderstandinge but yet when and wherin so euer knowlage and vnderstanding doth once get the victorie and obteineth it in dede ignorance then goeth streight to wrake and is vtterly put to flight for any thing therin it can dooe more Wher fore the trewth of one text vnderstanded or not vnderstanded can neuer driue the trewth of an other out of vnderstanding as it might doe if it might driue it to misconstruction as it can not because there shulde be then as I said trewth against trewth and vnderstanding against vnderstaÌ„ding which can not be Therfore whether the trewth of this other text y t Frith speaketh of be vnderstaÌ„d or not vnderstaÌ„d yet false is this his saiyng therof that it may cause the trew vnderstanding of an other text or veritee of scripture to be misconstrued of him that hath it and so put awaie when it is not possible for the trew vnderstandynge of a thynge and the misconstruynge of the same to stande to gether excepte Frith wyll saie that he can ioigne them together this waie as when he vnderstandeth a veritee neuer so wel yet he can purposely misconstrewe the same neuerthelesse to beguilde and deceiue his neghbour withall and beare him in hande it is otherwise ment then he hym selfe dooeth knowe it is HERE What sir ye dooe but taunte hym