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truth_n speak_v true_a word_n 8,834 5 4.4618 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A00596 The Fisher catched in his owne net Featley, Daniel, 1582-1645. 1623 (1623) STC 10732; ESTC S120857 13,298 32

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I distinguish the maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the names can be shewed is so visible as the Catholik Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetual and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot be shewed in all ages is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and as Mr. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to be I denie it To the minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the conclusion in the same maner D. Featly What answer you to the conclusion also This is a straine of new Logicke Mr. Fisher. Tolle distinctionem D. Featly A strange distinction of the eternitie of faith by professors to be named and not to be named What are professors nominable or innominable to the eternitie of faith M. Fisher. Conclude that which I deny That the Protestant Church is so eternall as the names of all visible Protestants in all ages may be shewed D. Featly That Church whose faith is the catholicke and primitiue faith once giuē to the Saints without which no man can be saued is so perpetuall as the names may be shewed in all ages But the faith of the Protestant Chruch is the primitiue and catholik faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Ergo the faith of the Protestant church is so perpetuall as the names may be shewed in all ages M. Fisher. I answer to the minor If this proposition be taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this proposition be considered as it must be as related to the first question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole dispute was intended to wit to shew to those who are not able by their owne abilitie to find out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the visibilitie of the Church is first to be shewed before the truth of doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speake you of those who are not able by their own abilities to find out faith is any man able by his owne abilitie without the help of diuine grace 2. What helpeth the visibilitie to confirme the truth of the Church Visibilitie indeed proues a Church but not the true Church Here M. Fisher alledged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former answer whereunto D. Featly promised answer should be made when it came to their turne to answer now he was by order to oppose M. Fisher. D. Featly The summe of your former answer was that the minor of my former Syllogisme was both false and impertinent It is neither false nor impertinent Ergo your answer is false and impertinent And first it is not false M. Fisher. I answer to the antecedent That it is both false and impertinent but I adde that for the present it must first be proued to be pertinent or else it diuerteth vs from the chiefe end of our dispute which was as I said before That infallible truth may be learned of the true visible Church and not the true visible Church by first finding euery particular infallible truth and by that to conclude which is the true visible Church D. Featly I proue that the minor is pertinent That minor proposition which together with the maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the minor last denied is pertinent to the probation of that minor denied But the minor proposition of the third Syllogisme doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the minor last denied Ergo the minor of that Syllogisme is pertinent Note that M. Fishers answers to euery one of these Syllogismes were penned by him verbatim with the aduice of M. Sweet and one other aduising priuatly and amending what they thought fit which breeding much delay irksome to the hearers and the Opponent then saying You are very long M. Fisher. A stander by said Let him alone for he and his learned councell are not yet agreed M. Fisher. I distinguish the maior That minor proposition which together with the maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the minor in such manner as it may serue for that purpose to which the whole dispute is ordained I grant it to be pertinent But if it do inferre the conclusion yet not in such maner as it may serue for that purpose for which the whole dispute was ordained I denie the maior Here the disputants iarred and so the writer ceased yet that which followeth was then deliuered by them D. Featly That minor which together with the maior inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing been per directa media is pertinent to that purpose to which the dispute is ordained But this minor together with the maior directly and necessarily inferres the Proposition last denied the whole processus hauing been made per directa media Ergo it is pertinent to that purpose to which the dispute is ordained M. Fisher. Your media in your Syllogismes were directa but they tended not ad directum finem D. Featly This is a B●ll Mr. Fisher. Media directa yet not ad directum finem that is direct and not direct for media are said to be directa only ratione finis M. Sweet Is there not a fault in arguing called transitio à genere in genus when a man by arguing quite leaues the maine question and subiect D. Featly I acknowledge that transitio à genere in genus is a fault in disputing but I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio à genere in genus such was my argument For faith in a right beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof which makes a visible member and the like profession of many members a visible Church Where the cause is perpetuall the effect must needs be perpetual Therefore where the faith is perpetuall the profession thereof must needs be and consequently the visibilitie of the professors thereof Is this transitio à genere in genus A stander by M. Sweet you once learned better Logicke in Cambridge then you shew now Here againe those of M. Fishers side calling for names D. White said Where are your names D. White This is nothing but an apparent tergiuersation You will not answer any argument directly nor suffer vs to proceed in our arguments and therefore I require you Mr. Fisher according to the order mentioned in the beginning for each partie to haue an houre and a halfe that you now oppose and suffer me to answer Proue by Christ and his Apostles or by any of the Fathers for the first 600 yeares these present tenets of the Roman Church viz. 1. That all power of order and iurisdiction in respect of the Churches is to be deriued from the