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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41776	A dialogue between the Baptist and the Presbyterian Wherein the Presbyterians are punished by their own pens, for their cruel and soul-devouring doctrines, making God the ordainer of all the sins of men and devils: and reprobating the greatest part of mankind, without any help of salvation. Whereunto is annexed, a treatise of election, intituled, The order of causes: formerly published by an eminent servant of Christ, and now republished with some explication concerning free-will. By Thomas Grantham, messenger of the baptized churches in Lincolnshire.	Grantham, Thomas, 1634-1692.	1691 (1691)	Wing G1530; ESTC R216815	20,667	29

were now hid from their Eyes Finally The Doctor is humbly intreated that he do not oppose God finally by such Reflections as these nor by finally rejecting the Counsel of God against himself as the Pharisees did for he hath been long under the Power of that Sin Norwich Sept. 12. 1690. Tho. Grantham Here follows the Doctor 's Answer dated Sept. 12. 1690. I Received a Letter this Night by an unknown Hand from an unknown Person who calleth himself Thomas Grantham Whosoever that Thomas Grantham be I perceive he is one that either knoweth God so little as that he believeth him not Omnipotent or of so little sense as to affirm Omnipotency may be resisted when it seriously willeth to effect an End which it cannot do without a willing to put forth its utmost Power to effect it He seems mightily scandalized at a Saying in a Book of Mine on 1 Cant. p. 259. God cannot seriously Act and yet be finally resisted That is he cannot act seriously for any End or Effect and be finally opposed as to that intended Effect This Proposition I thought had been secured as well by that of the Apostle Who hath resisted his Will at any time As from the Nature of God who is Almighty and therefore cannot be finally opposed in what he resolveth that is willeth to effect but that God may be finally opposed in what he adviseth or commandeth none that ever I heard of yet denied Well but if this Gentleman may not have his Notion the final Impenitence of Sinners must lie at God's Door contrary R. 2. 2 3 c. First Let the Author prove That God willed their Repentance by an inward Act of his Will for if he did not his Act in calling them to Repentance might have another End as to which he was not nor could not be opposed The same must be proved as to his Instances of the old World the Pharisees the Jews c. Let him prove that God within himself willed the Eternal Salvation of these Persons and to do what in him lay towards it and accordingly acted or affirm that any reasonable Creature can seriously act for an End and yet not inwardly will it or put forth his Power in order to it For his Admonition and Charge in the close I shall only say with the Apostle It is a small thing to be judged of Men especially Men who understand the Nature of God no better But I have too much Business further to regard such Impertinencies J. Collings To this Letter I sent this Reply Reverend Sir 1. IN much faithfulness to God and you I sent you my Observations upon your Position i. e. God cannot seriously act and be finally opposed for I think you are the first Man that ever spake so of the God of Truth But you persist in it and labour to defend it by accusing me of Ignorance about God's Omnipotency And are you sure you know him therein unto Perfection You cannot fairly collect from my Paper that God can be resisted in the thing wherein he will act Omnipotently for then he should cease to be God But does God never act Seriously when he doth not act Omnipotently This Sir seems to be your Notion but it is far from Truth 2. Nor do these words who hath resisted his Will at any time prove your Proposition for I find them not in the Bible Indeed St. Paul shews that some bold Spirits would be ready to interrogate the most High much after that rude manner but I hope Dr. Collings will not do so For he cannot but know He has often resisted God when he seriously advised him to the contrary as well as my self and others have done for which we ought to be greatly humbled Let him not then think to defend himself by adding to the Text lest he be reproved 3. You seem to hold that God cannot affect an End I suppose you mean he cannot convert a Sinner without a willing to put forth the utmost of his Power to effect it But you cannot give an Instance where he ever did exert or put forth the utmost of his Power in any thing that ever he did We must take heed we limit not the Power of the Almighty lest whilest we accuse others we our selves prove our selves the most ignorant of his Omnipotency 4. You should not alter the Terms of your Proposition But let us consider what you now say God cannot seriously act you say for any End or Effect and be finally opposed as to that intended Effect And yet you grant God may be finally opposed in what he adviseth or commands but seeing you explain God's resolving by his willing a thing here seems to be a plain Contradiction unless you can be so hardy as to say when God Adviseth or commands Men to forsake Evil and learn to do well his Will is not that they should do so and when he commands all Men every where to repent and obey his Voice he inwardly never intends they shall do the one or the other for he wills not that and if he wills not that then he wills the contrary that he may punish them for not doing that which he would not have them to do or else he wills nothing at all and so his Advice and Commands signify nothing But indeed your meaning is God commands and adviseth Men well but wills they shall not obey that so he may damn them for not obeying as appears in the close of your 2d Paragraph And you also put me to prove that God did will Sinners to Repentance Rom. 2. by an inward Will And what is this but to tell the World that God does not mean as he speaks Sir Was it not the Riches of his Goodness and his Long-suffering that should have led them to Repentance O no! you will imagine God had no such End but another as to which God was not nor could not be opposed and that was not their Salvation why then it must be their Damnation But I had rather believe the Apostle than you he shews that God's end was to lead them to Repentance and that is the way to Salvation 5. But I must prove also that God willed within himself the Salvation of the old World the Pharisees c. whom he called to bring forth Fruits meet for Repentance and that he willed the eternal Salvation of the Jews Psal 81. and those over whom Christ wept for their disobedience with an inward Will 1. Then for the old World The Lord was so serious and so inwardly concern'd that he strove with them by his Spirit and it grieved him at his Heart that they were so disobedient and he gave them a Preacher of Righteousness and an hundred Years space to repent in And I think this shews that he inwardly willed their Repentance yea and I am sure that had they repented he would not have destroyed them for he hath taught us so to judg of his Threatnings against sinful Nations Jer. 18. 7 8.

Strangers carried away captive his Forces even thou wast as one of them Thou shouldest not have entered into the Gate of any People in the day of their Calamity Neither shouldest thou have stood in the cross way to cut off those of his that did escape And Ver. 3. The pride of thine Heart hath deceived thee And for this Cause the Lord hated the Posterity of Esau Ver. 8. Shall I not even destroy the wise Men out of Edom and the Vnderstanding out of the Mount of Esau Yes he would surely punish them for their Iniquity And to the same purpose are the words of the Prophet Malachi ch 1. 2 3 4. I loved Jacob and hated Esau and laid his Mountains and his Heritage waste for the Dragons in the Wilderness Whereas Edom that is the Posterity of Esau saith We are impoverished but we will return and build the desolate Places thus saith the Lord of Hosts They shall build but I will throw down And thus did the Lord hate Esau that is the Posterity of Esau who lift up themselves in Pride against God and Cruelty against the Israelites The truth is God is no respecter of Persons and therefore God will hate in this kind that is punish as well Judah the Seed of Jacob as Edom the Seed of Esau yea both these Nations as well as other Nations when they lift up themselves with Pride against him Read and consider Jer. 9. 25 26. Behold the days come saith the Lord that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the Vncircumcised Egypt and Judah and Edom and the Children of Amon and Moab and all that are in the utmost Corners that dwell in the Wilderness For all these Nations are uncircumcised and all the House of Israel are uncircumcised in the Heart Lo here is the Cause why God hates Men even their hardness of Heart and Rebellion against him and nothing else POSTSCRIPT WHat I have here presented to consideration is but an Essay for I doubt not but that the contrary-minded will quarrel these my Labours Know therefore that as Occasion shall be offered you may expect if God permit a more ample Account of the things briefly noted in the preceding Dialogue It hath pleased God to stir up some of Learning and Judgment to serve the Truth in these Enquiries of whose Learned Labours I hope to give a more full Account and especially concerning the Doctrine of the Christian Writers from the Apostles Days to the Time of Augustine which was more than 400 Years During which Time this dreadful Doctrine opposed in these Treatises was a Stranger to the Church of Christ The Testimonies being many and large it may be convenient to take a further time for the producing of them as well in the Languages wherein they were first written as in our English Tongue And the same may also be necessary in respect of those Modern Writers which have so greatly eclipsed the Grace of God to Mankind All which may be done by an industrious Hand though but meanly Learned because these things are made ready to our Hands and may therefore be made the more serviceable to the Truth when dispersed in small Volumes for these large Tractates come but into few Hands And were I never so capable to collect and translate those Authors Opinions respectively yet I would rather make use of the Collections and Translations already made by those whose Abilities that way are unquestionable and what they have done of this kind approved and defended as may also be shewed in time convenient I confess I never had experience of the Effects of this Spirit which makes Men think that God in Christ loves but a very few of his Off-spring I mean Mankind Acts 17. 28. and that he hates the far greatest part of them from all Eternity I say I never had so much experience of this Spirit in its bitter Effects as since I came to reside in Norwich It hath filled even the highest sort of Professors with such indignation against me meerly for preaching God's Love to all Men for let them talk what they please this is the thing that if they Calvin burnt Servetus a learned and pious Baptist for differing in Opinion in Matters of Religion Servetus is justified since his Death and Calvin condemned for a false Accuser and Fratricide by Grotius and other Learned Men. could I should not have had a Place whereon to lay my Head in Norwich And I have been prayed against as I am informed as a Limb of Antichrist and God hath been desired to confound me with Antichrist c. such a Fury does this Doctrine of irrespective Reprobation beget in the Hearts of its Admirers A Fraternitate Calvinianâ libera nos Domine Now the Lord knows to whom I appeal that I have born these things with Patience and yet vigorously preached the Truth according to my ability and I have and do heartily pray for Mercy for these my Persecutors and hope by such Endeavours to prevail praying them timely to consider the dismal Effects of their Doctrine that Christ died but for a few How many have hereby despaired of Mercy and laid violent Hands upon themselves and too many God knows about this City And here the most humble Christian is in the greatest danger And on the other Hand how does the careless and confident sort go on in their evil Courses concluding from those peccant Articles above recited that not one more can be damned nor one less can be saved than was decreed and that unchangeably to be saved or damned from the beginning yea from before the World was yea from all Eternity And therefore it is all one whether they be Religious or Irreligious This is the Doctrine saith a Learned Man which is calculated for the Kingdom of Satan than which no Doctrine can more befriend his devouring Designs against the Souls of Men for saith he A Man may now be unjust unmerciful partial and full of dissimulation hating most Men without a cause and yet be most like God And indeed how should Men that have throughly imbibed these Principles be better than they take their God to be O then beware of a false Apprehension of God for when Men have set up such an Image of God in their Judgment they will adore it and thereby depart from God and do Mischief at a venture As concerning God's Election and Reprobation I shall briefly here assert my Judgment 1. That God did from the beginning chuse in Christ to Salvation all that part of the fallen Race of Adam that die in their Innocency or accept of his Mercy and Grace according to the Means he gives them and this Decree proceeds from his own Goodness and is not built upon any Goodness in the Creature 2. God did reprobate in his Decree and Determination from the beginning all that should in the successive Ages of the World reject or despise his Mercy and Goodness which should have led them to Repentance even every Soul of Man that doth Evil as well of the Jews as of the Gentiles Rom. 2. 8 9. 3. That no Man that is an unregenerate Sinner is actually Elected till he turns from Sin and accepts of God's Mercy by Faith Rev. 17. 14. And that none are actually reprobated till they depart from God or reject his Mercy and Goodness which he graciously holds forth to them Rom. 1. 28. And this is so clear that even those who are our Adversaries are forced to allow it For thus they speak Assemb Conf. of Faith c. 11. God did from all Eternity decree to justify the Elect Nevertheless they are not justified until the Holy Spirit doth in due time actually apply Christ unto them And to make this Matter evident to every considerate Reader I shall offer this Argument All that are actually Elected have an Inheritance in the Kingdom of God and of Christ and none can lay any thing to their Charge 1 Pet. 1. 2 3 4 5. Rom. 8. 33. But no unbelieving Drunkard Whoremonger Murtherer or Idolater hath any Inheritance in the Kingdom of God and of Christ Ephes 5. 5. and these Impieties may be laid to their Charge Ergo No unbelieving Drunkard Whoremonger Murderer or Idolater is actually Elected And yet we know that some which have been such were actually Elected when they were purged from their Filthiness and by Grace renewed As for personal irrespective and unavoidable Reprobation it is a Plant which bears most dismal Fruit An Instance we have of it in Calvin who confesseth that he procured the burning to Death of Michael Servetus who was a learned and worthy Man though perhaps in some things mistaken See Hug. Grot. in Points of Controv. Of which inhumane Act I will make this just Reflection to prevent the like O Calvin why didst thou like Cain thy pious Brother slay Because he could not walk with thee in thy self-chosen Way He did in Sacred Baptism 't is plain See Calv. Inst cont Servet the Truth assert And thou by chusing Infancy as plain did it pervert To which thou needst wouldst it dispense without one word of Truth To stand by thee in thy defence Whilst it with open Mouth Did stand by him whilst he did plead Repentance and true Faith In Sinners all prerequisites are for that Holy Bath Why didst thou slander him and then his Books to Ashes burn Lest by his Innocence thy Wrath should to thy shame return But some did ' scape thy furious Flames and he by them does speak More Truth than thou his Enemy But yet suppose him weak Tho Wise and Learned all must grant must he therefore be slain And Charitable too he was thou dost confess How vain Then must thou be him to oppress Let all thy Brood take heed They Reprobate no Man as thou by such an horrid Deed. T. G. FINIS

A DIALOGUE Between the BAPTIST AND THE PRESBYTERIAN WHEREIN The Presbyterians are punished by their own Pens for their Cruel and Soul-devouring Doctrines making God the Ordainer of all the Sins of Men and Devils And reprobating the greatest part of Mankind without any help of Salvation Whereunto is annexed A Treatise of ELECTION Intituled The Order of Causes Formerly published by an Eminent Servant of Christ and now republished with some Explication concerning FREE-WILL By THOMAS GRANTHAM Messenger of the Baptized Churches in Lincolnshire Psal 64. 7 8 9. But God shall shoot at them with an Arrow suddenly shall they be wounded So shall they make their own Tongue to fall upon themselves all that see them shall flee away And all Men shall fear and shall declare the Work of God for they shall wisely consider of his doing London Printed in the Year 1691. An Epistolary Preface to the Citizens of the Ancient City of Norwich Honoured Sirs GOD's Providence having ordered my Refidence in this City and my Business being to Preach the Gospel I have endeavoured to perform my Office amongst you for which I have met with many unkind and undue Reflections and more especially from that sort of Professors who have espoused the Principles and Doctrine of Mr. John Calvin concerning his imaginary Decree of absolute and irrespective Reprobation Two Confessions of Faith I find much received in this City containing these words God did from all Eternity freely and unchangeably ordain ALL THINGS whatsoever come to pass And that his Almighty Power extendeth it self even to the first Fall and all other Sins of Angels and Men and that not by a bare permission And that By the Decree of God some Angels and Men were fore-ordained to Everlasting Death And that these Angels and Men thus predestinated and fore-ordained are particularly and unchangeably designed and their Number so certain and definite that it cannot be either encreased or diminished See the Conf. of Faith by the Assemb of Divines In which Confession they also teach That God did not decree any of those things because he foresaw they would come to pass But they make the Decree of God the FIRST Cause of all things whatsoever comes to pass Chap. 5. Sect. 2. So that according to this Doctrine all the Sins both of Devils and Men from the beginning to the end of the World was by force of God's Decree THE FIRST CAUSE unavoidably necessary and hereupon also the unavoidable Damnation of just such a Number both of Angels and Men as God would have to be ●…ed and no more And hereupon it will follow that God's Decree was 〈…〉 that Cain killed his Brother Abel that Ruben polluted his Fathe 〈…〉 David committed Adultery with Bathsheba and murdered 〈…〉 and of all the Villanies in the World The odiousness of w 〈…〉 will better appear if we put this Case A oweth B 100 l. he pays it for so it was decreed but then comes C in the Night and robs B of his 100 l. and also cuts his Throat And this comes to pass also by force of God's Decree unavoidably because say they God did from all Eternity unchangeably decree all things whatsoever comes to pass That I do them no wrong by thus speaking hear the words of Calvin himself Inst L. 1. c. 17. Thieves and Murderers are the Instruments of Divine Providence which the Lord himself useth to execute his Judgments which he hath determined in himself and that he works through them When I had seriously considered that many were ensnared in these dreadful and blasphemous Doctrines to the exasperating their Spirits against the Truth of the Gospel and against such as do sincerely preach it as the Means of Salvation to all Men scandalizing them by the Name of Free-willers c. I did find my self concern'd to testify against this unmerciful Doctrine and this unrighteous Accusation about Free-will * Concerning which Point of Free-will you shall have an Account in the last Treatise where it will appear they that accuse others do hold as much as the Persons they accuse if not more concerning Free-will And to preach the Everlasting Gospel that God is not willing that any should perish but that All should come to repentance 2 Pet. 3. 9. And being well assured of the sincerity of my Doctrine and purpose I did as Occasion offered assert the Truth both by Word and Writing And hearing that Dr. John Collings was the greatest Assertor of the Reprobatarian Principles I found an opportunity to write to him upon the occasion of a Passage in his Book Intituled A Discourse of Divine Love pag. 259. which I now publish with his Answer and my Reply to prevent and correct false Reports which have gone abroad amongst some concerning these Papers The Doctor 's Proposition is this God cannot seriously act and be finally opposed A dangerous Position it is as if the final Impenitency of Sinners were the issue of some want of seriousness in God that is though he calls them to Repentance yet he does not inwardly intend that they shall repent and to this purpose he quotes several Scriptures all which will be evident by the Papers following My first to him proceeds thus Some Observations upon a Passage of Dr. Collings in his Discourse of Divine Love pag. 259. Viz. God cannot seriously act and be finally opposed 1. HEre the final Impenitency of Sinners is charged upon God for that he is not serious in leading them to Repentance directly contrary to the Word of God Rom. 2. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11. 2. It reflecteth upon God's gracious Expostulation and acting in a way of Mercy with Cain who opposed God finally as if God was not serious with him 3. It reflecteth upon God's striving by his Spirit with the old World as if God did not strive seriously nor act seriously by the preaching of Noah wherein God waited long and yet they opposed finally 4. It reflecteth upon God's Counsel to the Pharisees quoted by the Doctor as if he was not serious in that Counsel which he by his Servant John the Baptist gave them to bring forth Fruits meet for Repentance for they resisted finally as the Doctor himself intimates 5. It renders God not serious in sending his Prophets to turn Israel from their Iniquities Jer. 7. 13. which is quoted by the Doctor for they did oppose finally and were cast out and the Prophet was forbidden to pray for them Jer. 7. 15 16. 6. It impeacheth God as not serious in calling Israel to Repentance Psal 81. quoted by the Doctor for they opposed finally and God gave them up to their own Hearts Lusts and they walked in their own Counsels Ver. 12. 7. The Doctor reflects dishonour upon Christ as not serious in his actings towards Jerusalem when he would have gathered them the words are quoted by the Doctor when yet he wept over them for their final Opposition For the things which did once belong to their Peace