Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	speak_v	spirit_n	true_a	4,053	5	5.1525	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93589	An end of one controversie: being an answer or letter to Master Ley's large last book, called Light for smoke. One of the Assembly at Westminster. Which he writ lately against me. In which the sum of his last book, which relates to the most material passages in it, is gathered up and replied to. / By John Saltmarsh, not revolted (as Master Ley saith) from a pastoral calling; but departed from the Antichristian ministery by bishops, and now a preacher of the Gospel.	Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647.	1646 (1646)	Wing S479; Thomason E333_17; ESTC R200756	7,943	14

I have men believe as they list as you say of me I would onely not have men forced to believe as others list as you or your Brethren list I would have Faith wrought by the Spirit of God not by the spirits of men who have no dominion over Faith To the 6. And why do you speak so of a loud Conquest over me Truth is not conquer'd when the man is trampled on It is not your being great can make you a Conquerer no more then your calling by the Bishops a true Presbyter To the 7. And for your desire rather to deal with Bellarmine then me I did not think I had been so formidable an enemy but I will not presume Indeed Bellarmine is a more easie adversary because he opposes the Truth and I though a weak one may be more considerable because Truth defends me rather then I the Truth for I will rather make it my champion then my self a champion for it And for my new-sprung Notions as you say call Truth Notion or new or what you will you can never call it out of its own nature or essence And Truth is Gods own notion neither mine nor yours and new onely to the old man not to him who after God is created in righteousnesse and true holinesse To the 8. Nor am I lesse a Disputant in Divinity because against forms of Art and Logick as you say I may dispute in Christs School though refused in the School of Tyrannus And if you will chalenge me in any point of Philosophie I shall not refuse you there in Logick or Forms of Art They are forms onely for the wisedom of men not the wisedom of God Nor dare I take my discoveries of Christ from Reason nor seek the glory of him in forms so much belowe him and fashion the Creator like to the Creature who is God blessed for ever You and I must die more to vain Philosophie to the wisedom of the Greek to the rudiments of the world I allow Learning its place anywhere in the kingdoms of the world but not in the Kingdom of God To the 9. For my being a Vbiquitary as you say in belief and your proof of this from the several Opinions stated in my book Can you be so unfaithful to that Book I Can you who would be counted an Orthodox and a Divine thus force and compel those Opiniont upon me or not rather upon the Paper onely where they are printed Because I stated the Opinions of men Am I therefore a man of all those Opinions The best is the world may convince you of this and of my purpose in that And now you are thus unfaithful in a little I may suspect you for more Are you one of those who pretend to be in the mount with God and to give Laws for Religion Can we trust you in the more excellent mysteries of the Father while you trifle thus and deceive the Brethren To the 10. For my being an Antinomian If to say we serve not in the oldnesse of the Letter but in the newnesse of the Spirit If to say The Law was given by Moses but grace and truth by Jesus Christ If to say We are not under the Law but under Grace If to say We are delivered from our enemies that we might 〈◊〉 him without fear in holines and righteousnes If to say The Commandment is holy just and good If to say Shall we sin that grace may abound God forbid If this be Antinomianisme I am one of that sort of Antinomians I know no other for my part though you have filled the world with a noise if this be heresie so worship we the God of our Fathers nor have I misquoted any but onely singled out that truth from many in one leaf before they spoiled it in the next and like Pilate who asking onely what truth was would not tarry by it but departed To the 11. And for my unstablenesse If to be sometimes darknesse and now light in the Lord If to put off the old man with the former lusts and to put on the new If to come out of Babylon when the Spirit calls If to adde to faith vertue to vertue patience to patience godlinesse c. If to grow in the encreasings of God to a fulnesse of stature in Christ If leaving things that are behinde and pressing to things that are before be unstablenesse let me be always thus changing till he who can onely change our vile bodies fashion me like unto his own glorious body To the 12. Nor do I glory I hope in the quick dispatch of what I do but do not you as well over deliberate as I over dispatch and glory in that but are you no better acquainted with the Spirit in the things of God Are we to be ever consulting with flesh and blood did the disciples and Brethren when they spake the Word of God tugge first amongst so many School-men so many Fathers so many moderne Divines so many Commentators so many old Poets as you do Or rather onely with the Word and Spirit and power of Christ and for that of your Poetrie and your Brewer I desire not to shew so much of the oldman or former corruption as to sparkle so lightly with you To the 13. For my Interposing being no delay to the Government as you say Why do you say then in other places I presented you wish a former Book against Mr. Saltmarsh his Remora And again Mr. Saltmarsh Quare to retard the establishment I pray now be friends first with your self before you bee too much an enemie to the truth or to me and though I cannot stand in the way of the establishment I am the least in my Fathers house I am but as the flie upon the wheel yet truth is mighty and of that power as it can weigh heavie upon your Chariot-wheels when you would be driving into the red Sea of persecution and pursuing Israel To the 14. Whereas you say you are wished to be better imployed then in writing they are your friends indeed that wish so you cannot be worse imployed I am su●● then in speaking ill of your brethren in advancing your selves in Lording it over the heritage in tryumphing upon the vantage ground of your place and power in applicating and at the same time judging the Magistrate or in a word intreating them that they may rule not you or your Presbyterie but whom you allow them from your Prerayterie And for others undertaking me as many as please for I fear not an host nor a multidude of pen-me● I see more for us then against us I know this present Presbyterie may have many pensioners there are such great livings of hundreds a year to spice the government the silver shrines had many that cried great was Diana of the Ephesians Mr. Leys Treatise 1. THe gradual subordination of Assemblies is made good by the learned book of Mr. Rutherford against the Congregationall Independency 2. The

subordinate Presbyteries are not Churches out of Churches as yours are not in such singularity with free choice more conveniencie in Parishes more for preservation of Peace more agreeable to the Apostles Acts 15. more authorized by Parliament That tythes are spoken against by those that scruple not at slander or sacriledge that they usurpe upon God and his Ministers that alienate them from his Worship and Service That Old men are more honourable then the Young therefore called Senators Elders Sages that Dreams are more glorious then Visions because of more Communion with God in the sleep then waking and because of many divine things revealed in dreams and that John was old when he had his vision That it is lawful to jest at misapplication of Scripture by Gods example in Gen. by Eliahs by others c. That the other Church-Government comes not under such tryals of the Parliament as Presbyterie but is set up without their authority That Gospel patternes are as much in the letter as the Legal because written That Mr. Prinn Dr. Bastwick Mr. Burton Mr. Lilburne were cruelly used by the Bishops Mr. Lilburne whipped from Fleete-Bridge to Westminster so cruelly that the cords bruised his shoulders and made them swel as bigg as a penny loafe and the Warden made him be gagged as if he would tear his jawes Answer THat the gradual subordination is made good by Mr. Rutherford c. Is this reasoning or reference And this you have done all along referred us either to your self or some other to answer for you That your Presbyteries are not so singular more free convenient more peaceable more Apostolical more authorized then other Churches These are good commendations but had half so much been proved by the Word your government had passed before this For that of sacriledge and usurpation upon God in alienating tythes never did Prelate no nor Bishop Mountague plead an higher title for tythes What sacriledge and usurpation to deny tythes Where are you in the Covenant or no is it not a Parliament Ordinance you take them by and will you set up a divine right over that now surely they may justly now withdraw their Ordinance for tythes and leave you to your divine right and see what the people will pay you To that of your commending old men and age I reverence age and old men but not the old man in them And for dreams being more excellent then visions It is a curious speculation and enough may be said for both yet if you take Visions more spiritually they are more glorious a way of Revelation then that of dreams but what are these dreams to yours Surely reformation in blood or by persecution is but a dream of such as have slept long in Prelacy Why are you so much in the defence of jeasting and so serious in your Scripture proofes so it take heed of strengthening corrupt nature by Scripture God and Eliah saw errors more clearly then you or I who may assoon laugh at the Scripture it self as something beside it And for other Church Governments not comming under the tryall of Parliament nor comming out by their authority I know not any that would not 〈…〉 lay down the●… Scripture order to that honourable Senate and rejoyce that they would take it up to discusse and for not coming out under their authority I know none of the rest so ambitious 〈…〉 to solicite them to compell their order upon all their Brethren and all must be hereticks and schismaticks that will not though they cannot beleeve so For Gospel patternes being as much in the letter as the Legal because written are you such a stranger to the Spirits notion of Letter and Spirit in the New Testament Know you not that the Temple or Legal worship before was said to be in the Oldnesse of the Letter Know you not that Gospel patternes are more seen by the Spirit now then before and though both be written and in Letter yet not both equally litterall but the one more glorious in the ministration the other l●sse For that of the sufferers Mr. Prynn Mr. Burton Mr. Lilburn and Mr. Baestwick And Mr. Lilburne written in such capitall letters of blood as you justly say and can you name these and call for the power in your hands as you do Can you thus remember Prelates and yet petition to be such Presbyters Can you see these yet bleeding and desire to persecute by such a President of Blood FOr Salmasius his testimony with the Baptisme in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and his testimony that the Presbyterie is but of humane and positive right not of divine He is mine and not yours and all your pains and quarrelling and after quotations cannot make him more yours or lesse mine and it is no little disadvantage to you that one so great a Schollar as your whole Assembly affords any hath thus witnessed with the truth which so many Schollars oppose C. D. his Treatise printed with Master Ley's Book in Master Ley's Commendation whether made by himself or some other he best knows HIs Title is One of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster And there you might have known of what account he was among his Reverend Brethren He was chosen Chair-man of the Committée of examination of Ministers and of the Committée of Printing and one of the Triers and one of the Ordainers of Ministers next after the two Doctors Chair-man I remember not any of the Apostles in such Offices and Titles You might have known him by his Patern of Pietie his Book on the Sabbath by divers Sermons of his in Print his Annotations on the Pentateuch and he hath much more prepared for the Presse then is already printed All which are approved by those most able to judge of judicious and learned Labours Give them leave to speak themselves in this point The Gréek Anagram made on his name when President of Sion Colledge THE SUN IN SION with Verses If the Sun be there why no more Light there then For his Name you would think it too venerable c. John in the Hebrew signifies Grace and Ley in Spanish the Law With some Letters in his Commendation in pag. 19 20 c. THus I have gathered up all in your Book that concerns you materially and your friend printed on the backside of yours And for other particulars more substantial your Books and mine are both abroad let them speak for themselves the Readers must now judge in the Spirit what we both write in the letter for I intend not to puzzle the world with any more of this Controversie Some Truth may be seen and what is more is but you and I. SIR I was unwilling to set your failings before you and the world but since you printed them once over in mistake I thought I might print them over in a clearer letter that you may see things for Errours which before you took for Truths Conclusion THus I have replied to your Positions not to your passions nor repreaches in which you are something larger than I had thought becomes an Orthodox Divine And for the dirt you cast in my face I have onely wiped it off without casting it back on yours I had rather let it fall in the Chanel which best becomes it For your Revilings sleight●ngs and railings if they trouble not your self to write the Presse to ●●●int and the Reader to reade I promise you they trouble not me And though I am much belowe many yet I am in this above you by how much he that can pardon is greater then he that offends I thank you for your ill ●sage you cannot do that against me which works not for my good for I am learning to blesse them that curse me to pray for them that despitefully use me And truely this advantage I shall make of your taxing me for faults which I have not To tax my self of the many other faultes which I have indeed which you and the world see not FINIS Eccles. 12. 12. Joh. 21. 25. In Epistles to Sir William Strickland●●d M. Grimston and in Epist. to my self Eph. 4. 4. Epist. p. 1. p. 12. p. 13. p. 19. 20. p. 25. 26. p. 40. p. 62. p. 82. to 9. to 21. 3. 4. Act. 2. 5. 6. Pag. 4. ☜

An end of One Controversie Being an ANSWER OR LETTER To Master LEY's large last Book called Light for Smoke One of the ASSEMBLY at Westminster Which he writ lately against me In which the Sum of his last Book which relates to the most material Passages in it is gathered up and replied to By JOHN SALTMARSH not revolted as Master LEY saith from a Pastoral Calling but departed from the Antichristian Ministery by Bishops and now a Preacher of the Gospel Isai. 5. 20. Wo be to them that put darknesse for light Acts 19. 32. Some therefore cried one thing and some another for the Assembly was confused and the most part knew not wherefore they were come together Vers 41. And when he had spoken this he dismissed the Assembly London Printed by Ruth Raworth for G. Calvert at the signe of the Black Spread-Eagle at the West-end of Paul 1646. Aprill 17●● The Law of Nature giving a man leave to speak fairly in his owne just defence and the Law of Grace requiring him to speak zealously in the defence of Truth I think it equal that this answer to Mr. Ley should be printed April 15. 1646. John Bachiler THE LETTER SIR FOr the Controversie in substance betwixt us I can not think the Truth I defended so weak as to need a new Treatise to bear it up I see it is otherwise with you who dare not let your former Books stand by themselves without another to support them It is indeed the way of the Popish Schools to fill the world with Volumes and Tomes and rather to astonish then convince and this is one thing hath made the world wonder after the Beast There is no end in making many Books How hath Truth been carried out of sight from the Reader in the Labyrinth of Replies and Rejoynders Your self gives us an Experiment in this Book for how are you puzled to let the Reader know what was yours and what was mine at first and what is yours again and what was mine afterwards and what is yours again in answer to mine and what Truth is after all this I finde it to be the wisedom of the Spirit of God to leave the world a sufficiency of Scripture and Truth but not to write all lest the world should not contain it And Pilate was not amisse in that What I have written says he I have written when they desired him to write more So as things being thus I hope I shall write you as much if not more in One Sheet and an half as you have writ me in Seventeen for he that writes any thing of Truth more properly writes much then he that writes against it though in more Paper The Summe of your Book is this 1. YOur Epistles which are a competent treatise of themselves and the very Cisterne of your reasoning from whence you fill all the other Pages of your Book 2. The Parts of my Treatise with your answer or rather much of your former reply which in things of most weight is no refutation but a reference to other Divines who have writ of the like subject c. it seems you have a common stock of learning amongst you or an Argumentative Treasurie to which you referre us with much ease but I cannot take this for good payment to be put over to another man when you are bound to pay me your self I could turn you over thus to as able Divines as you do me to Mr. Tho. Goodwin Mr. Burton Mr. John Goodwin Mr. Nye Mr. Tombes Mr Pryun Mr. Burrough Mr. White Mr. Eaton Mr. Den Mr. Knolls c. 3. The appendix to your book writ by a master of Arts whether your friend or your self for I know not whom you make the two letters C. D. to stand for who brings in testimonials of your abilities learning piety good carriage worth c. who methinks speaking so much to your praise as he doth stands a little too neer you we should not seek glory one of another our praise should be of God not of men Thus I have contracted you to save you some evil in the multitude of your words now to your matter 1 THat they should counsel me not to cry down the Government 2 That no Presbytery Parochial c. assumes such power as the Prelatical 3 That if the Question were rightly stated men would be convinced Magistracie and Christian liberty would be preserved 4 That I should restore such Tythes if unlawful as I formerly received because the sin till then is not remitted 5 That I would have men believe as they list 6 That he was wished rather to a neglect of me then a loud Conquest over me 7 That he had rather confute Bellarmine then my new-sprung Notions 8 Because I am against Logick and forms of Art I am no right Disputant 9 That I am an Ubiquitary in my Belief because of the Opinions set down in The Smoke c. 10 That I am an Antinomian and deals with some late Divines as some with Luther 11 That I am unstable 12 That I glory in the quick dispatch of my work To which Tertullian and some old Poetry and other Authors with a Story of a Noble-man and a Brewer is brought 13 That my Interposition is like to be no delay to the Government 14 That he may be better employed then in writing and others shall undertake me To the first 1. ARe you in such fears of your Government that you make friends to me to be silent Is it so weak that it may be cried down To the 2. Is Presbytery because Parochial Classical Provincial lesse Tyrannical then Episcopal because many rule in that and in this but one or rather not more tyrannical because one Tyrant is not so much as many together Evil in a Community is stronger and more diffusive then in Vnity To the 3. Is not the Question of the Presbytery yet stated Yea surely What else hath your Assembly and othersibeen doing Is it not a power in your Eldership and Presbyterie how little or large soever over the Churches and Congregations independent upon the Magistrate coercive to all that believe not as they believe as to Heretiks and Schismaticks And yet men are not convinced nor is Magistracy or Christian liberty so preserved as you say let both the Magistrates and Christians judge who in the mean time you would be Judges over To the 4. For my restoring of Tythes now unlawful to me I have done it I have returned to the State my property of a full yeers Arrearag nor did I take Tythes since I was in Kent but the peoples free composition from the first and being even convinced against that too a yeer since I forbore it But take heed how you put forgivenesse of sin upon restitution for that is not onely Popery but like the Pope you would sell pardons onely to the rich and none to the poor and you would put more upon Sacrifice then upon Mercy To the 5. Nor would