do decide a Controversie by insisting upon the Scripture this is no more than my Answer included for I do not imagine that the Church must not pronounce what is contained in the Scripture but if she hath power to speak as from the Lord in these dayes when yet the Scripture saith no such thing then I profess my self short of understanding the power of the Church 2 Thess 3. 2. I only made use of this Text thus far that in Religious Controversies the Apostle gives Reason her place and therefore desired to be delivered from unreasonable men PAPIST ONce more you offer to justifie your Consequences drawn out of the five Texts But I ask once more To what purpose did you bring them was it not to prove what you had said in your Answer to my Query That the Scripture so we took right Reason along with us was sufficient to resolve all Controversies in matters of Faith No rational man can reade your first Paper but must think so and indeed otherwise you must have brought them to prove something that was not under debate which had been impertinent Must not that very Assertion of yours be the Consequence to these five Texts and them have I not reason to cry out that there never appeared such Monstrous Consequences But to avoid this inconvenience you fall into the other and will have some of your Texts brought to prove certain Propositions which you had not mentioned in your Answer Howsoever let us now see what you make of them Isa 8. 20. God's People are commanded to have recourse rather to the Law c. than to superstitious Oracles Ad Legem magis c. And they have a sign given them to convince such Oracles of falshood if they speak not according to the Word or Prophesie of Isaiah This is the clear sense of that place out of which you draw this strange consequence Ergo the Scripture c. is to resolve all matters of Faith A strange Consequence I say as will appear if we turn your Euthymeme into a Syllogism thus Recourse is to be had rather to the Law than to false Oracles whose falsehood appears if they speak not according to the Word or Prophecy of Isaiah But if this be so the Scriptures c. are to resolve all points of Faith Ergo c. What a prodigious minor have we here How doth it follow that because God's Word is to be more credited than superstitioas Oracles or that such Oracles are not to be credited when they speak against God's Word Therefore the Scriptures c. are to resolve all points of Faith I know you have not the word rather in your English Translation as we have in ours but the clear sense of the place bears as much 1 Tim. 6. 3. saith they are proud that teach contrary to the Doctrine of Christ Ergo you infer that the Scripture is to judge whose Doctrine is of pride This is as mad a conclusion as the last for when there is no clear Text of Scripture for either side as it often happens or Scripture brought on both sides How can the Scripture judge whether party be proud or how can it be judge of its own sense when it is alledged on both sides who both pretend to have the Spirit and Reason on their sides 1 John 4. 6. Those that hear not the Apostles are not of God nor have his Spirit Ergo say you the Scripture resolves who are religious Doth it follow out of this Text that when parties contend that they hear the Apostles the Scripture can resolve the difference and pronounce who are religious c. Not at all 2 John 9. 10. Gives Judgement against those that follow not Christ's Doctrine You infer ergo the Scripture must try whether men bring this Doctrine Strange Logick for unless your Text proved that the Scripture containes all Christ's Doctrine which it doth not your Consequence must needs be faulty 2 Thess 3. 2. you say proves that Reason is some wayes necessary to decide Controversies in Religion I will not examine the goodness of this Consequence but I am sure you need not have brought Scripture to have proved so manifest a Truth which cannot be denied by any but such as pretend to have so much of the Spirit that me-thinks they should have little need of the use of Reason BAPTIST Concerning my five Texts and what I infer thence I need not speak much here yet it is worthy observing how apparantly you miss the clear sense of Isa 8. 20. whilst you restrain the relatives this word to the Word or Prophecy of Isaiah whereas it is as clear as the Sun at noon that they ought to be referr'd to the Law and Testimony for thus I read To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to This Word Having thus missed the sence of the Text then in all that you say further you discover a taunting spirit endeavouring to bespatter me with what dirt comes next to hand I did not quote any one of the five Texts as taking it singly to prove the whole Assertion and therefore you did injure my understanding to argue from them apart as brought to prove the whole Position but I brought them to prove such Propositions as being laid together do amount to so much as my Assertion as I explicate it doth contain For the first four Texts do all of them shew how God's People ought to try and defend themselves against such as oppose the Church and Truth of God as I shewed in my Rejoynder and the fifth gives Reason her place in Religious Contests But there is not one of the Arguments which I formed from my five Quotations but you deprave and abuse it by both adding terms of your own and omitting mine yea sometimes whole sentenoes and when you have so done you flout at the Conclusions Which dealing is too bad for a sober Disputant It were a very easie thing to turn all your Objections here against the Scripture as insufficient to resolve differences in Religion upon the Church as therefore insufficient to resolve them For whereas you say That when both Parties pretend to have Scripture and Reason on their sides then the Scripture cannot decide the Controversie Might not I as well say when both parties pretend to have the Church on their side as that 's the case between us the Church then cannot decide our difference Again where you seem to say that when both parties contending do say they hear the Apostles that then the Apostles cannot as they speak in the Scriptures decide the Controversie Hath not this the same force against the Church when both parties contend they hear the Church See how you can defend your self and I doubt not but therein you will defend my Arguments for the Scripture And because you do cry up the Fathers c. for so clear a way to decide all our Controversies I will therefore shew you that they do clearly
THE BAPTIST AGAINST THE PAPIST OR The SCRIPTURE and ROME in Contention about the SUPREAM SEAT of JUDGMENT in CONTROVERSIES of RELIGION Together with Ten Arguments or Reasons discovering the present Papal Church of Rome to be no true Church of Christ WHEREIN It is also evinced That the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers are the true Church of Jesus Christ By THO. GRANTHAM a Prisoner for Truths sake Luke 16. 29 31. They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them If they hear not Moses and the Prophets neither will they be perswaded though one should rise from the dead Ezek. 20. 18 19. But I said unto their children Walk ye not in the Statutes of your fathers c. I am the Lord your God walk in my Statutes and keep my Judgments and do them Joh. 12. 48. The Word that I have spoken the same shall judge you in the last day LONDON Printed in the Year 1663. THE AUTHOR TO THE READER Courteous Reader NOt because I envy those of the Papal Church or desire them any evil Not that I desire they should be exposed to a suffering condition for matters of Religion or that they should be denied any liberty in that respect which I desire my self nor for any other prejudice God knoweth do I publish this small Treatise But because I judge my self concerned at this time to give my Testimony for the Truth against some Papal Tenents for divers causes As first I am at this time under restraint and though nothing hath been laid to my charge yet it is rumour'd by some that I am a Papist yea in this place of my Confinement have I been told to my face by some of the Protestant Clergie that I am a Roman Jesuite And indeed this is an ordinary aspersion which hath been cast upon those in general to whom I am related upon a religious account viz. That we are all Papists or will turn Papists c. and this not so much to our personal prejudice as to the dishonour of that antient way of Truth by us professed Secondly A more particular occasion of the publication of this Treatise proceeded from the Papists themselves in sending Seven Queries to the Baptized Congregations in this County commonly called Anabaptists To which through the importunity of some Friends I formed a brief Answer little thinking I confess that so much contention would have risen thereupon as since I have met with And I likewise confess that the undertaking is such as that it requireth a more fit Instrument than my self to manage it Nevertheless I hope I may say that hitherto what hath come to pass in this contest hath fallen out rather to the furtherance of the Truth for which cause I have thought fit to offer it to the perusal of others so much of it I mean as I conceive is at present needful and that is the substance of what hath passed about the means whereby we must decide or resolve Controversies in Religion It now wants but few months of a year since I sent my final Answer containing a Review of all that had been said in way of Answer to the Queries before in which I produced the Testimony of divers Antient Dictors as concurring with what I had therein spoken and as being directly opposite to my Antagonist But I have heard of late that he is gone out of this Nation so that I expect no more Reply from him And though for divers Reasons hereafter shewed I have not published the whole Discourse which if need be may in due time be brought to light yet I have thought it meet here to set down all the Seven Queries that so if any Christian of suitable endowments for the Vindication of Truth against the opposition that lyeth in the said Queries shall think fit to lay forth his Talent in that Service he may take hold of this occasion wherein to do it for the Queries were not directed to any particular person however I shall joyn to each Query one Antiquery which may serve at this present to blunt the edge of them as they carry an opposition to the Truth The QUERIES The ANTI-QUERIES Query 1. Antiq. 1. VVHether we are to resolve all Differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God VVHat Differences in point of Religion can you resolve without the written Word of God and whether the written Word of God be a perfect Rule for matters of Religion Query 2. Antiq. 2. How know you precisely what is the true Word of God Whether some Book must not of necessity speak for it self and whether the Scripture doth not best deserve this priviledge And whether it be not a bold presumption to say there are no holy Books but them which we or you have received for such sith those which we have tell us there are other holy Writings which never yet came to our hands nor to yours Query 3. Antiq. 3. How know you that your Copies and Translations of the Bible are the true Word of God since the Original Writings are not come to your hands What Copies and Translations of the Bible have you that are more true than ours and where are the Original Manuscripts of the Prophets and Apostles Qu. 4. Antiq. 4. Where we differ about the sense of the Word by whom must we be tryed the dead Letter cannot explain it self When we differ about the true Church and about the meaning of Authors by whom must we be tryed They cannot speak for themselves more than the Scripture and whether the Scriptures compared together do not explain themselves also whether it be not an opprobrious and ignominious speech for you to call the Scripture a dead Letter and whether the true lovers of the Scripture ever vouchsafed it such ill and indeed improper language Qu. 5. Antiq. 5. What clear Text have you out of Scripture for the procession of the holy Ghost from the Father the Son or for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday or prohibiting Poligamy or Infant-Baptism And whether there be not as clear Texts to prove unwritten Tradition Purgatory and the real Presence Whether the Baptism of the true Church be not one and whether that one be not expresly found in the Scripture And whether the Scripture doth not prohibit all beside that one And whether the Papists have not confessed in many of their Books that Infant-Baptism is not found in nor grounded upon the Scripture and then whether it be not clear that all the Texts which speak of Baptism do not prohibit Infant-Baptism Also whether Joh. 15. 26. and 14. 26. and 16. 7. be not clear Texts that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son Also whether 1 Cor. 7. 1 2 3. do not as much prohibit one man for having two Wives and one woman for having two Husbands and whether it do not clearly prohibit the latter Also whether there be any that hold the first day under the notion of a Sabbath
among the Baptized Churches and yet whether there be not clear Texts for the religious observation of it Act. 20. 7. Also whether it he not absurd for you to ask for clear Texts to prove unwritten things Also whether Rurgatory and the Real Presence as you hold them is not plainly destructive to some Articles of the Christian Faith Qu. 6. Antiq. 6. VVhether Universality both for time and place be not an evident mark of the true Church What Church can you name that hath that mark And whether the Woman that John saw was not Rome And whether her Cup was not universally received so that all Nations were drunk thereby Qu. 7. Antiq. 7. Whether you have really this mark that is whether you can fetch out of all Ages and Nations Professors of your Religion in particular you are desired to name but one or two in the first six hundred years after Christ of your Profession for example such as held the sole-sufficiency of Scripture for deciding Controversies and denied the lawfulness and usefulness of Infant-Baptism Whether any man can shew this mark as it is here call'd for without the help of humane History and whether humane History be a rule or ground for divine Faith And whether humane Histories especially those of the first three hundred after Christ were not most if not all burnt which concerned the Church and whether those that remain are not contradictory one to another Also whether Infant-Baptism was so much as heard of in the first hundred and then how could any be named that denied the usefulness thereof Also whether a Church whose gathering constitution and government is answerable to the Scripture be not the true Church of Christ And whether the Churches of the Baptists do not therein exceed all other whatsoever Thus Reader I have given thee some account of the causes why I publish this Treatise I desire thee to peruse it diligently If in any thing the Truth be dishonoured through any Error maintained by me of which yet I do solemnly profess I am not conscious to my self then do not forbear to blame me in a christian sort only if thou perceivest me deficient in point of Language and Method I desire thee to bear with that for I am one that gets my bread by the labour of my hands and never saluted the Schools to gain the knowledge of their Arts. From the Common-Goal in the Castle of Lincoln the 10th of the 11 month commonly called January 1662. Farewel TO THE Nameless Author OF THE VII QUERIES And in him to all the SONS of PAPAL ROME In the County of LINCOLN HItherto the things pertaining to Religion as they concern the Baptized Congregations commonly called Anabaptists and you that are commonly called Papists have been very little controverted And whether it shall ever please God to try his Peoples Faith and Stedfastness by your open opposition as he hath done it by others I may not presume to determine nor doubt I but if it shall so fall out he will advance his Truth thereby It is most certain that of those many wayes whereby the antient path of the Gospel hath for a long time been opposed there is not found any more potent than yours and the rather because your subtilty is utterly unknown to the generality of Christians in this Age and Nation where your Religion hath as it were lain dormant for many years The most dangerous stratagem wherewith you usually assail your opposits is your denyal of the Scripture c. the high doom of Judgment in matters of Faith and ascribe that dignity to your selves under pretence of your being the Church wherein if you conquer any one your work is as it were wholly accomplished Whereupon I have here presented to the world somewhat of your skill in this important Question Whether we are to resolve all Differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God yea I have faithfully transcribed your last Reply to my Answers which contains the sum of what you said in all your other Papers Whereby the Reader will discern if I think right wisdom used to the hurt of them that have received it I have forborn at this time to publish all that hath passed between us about the seven Queries partly for that one thing is oft repeated in our several Papers and partly and indeed especially for that it is to little purpose to controvert any particular point of Religion till we be agreed about the Judge that must determine our Differences Now whereas you do ascribe this Prerogative to your selves under pretence of your being the Church of Christ I have therefore laid down several Reasons by which it may appear that you are not the Church and so not that Judge whereunto you pretend to be so willing to adhere I have likewise shewed that we your opposits have the true claim to the title of Christ's Church that so if you will appeal to her you must then appeal to us which yet we believe you will not be perswaded to nor indeed do we desire you should whilst this is the Question Whether we or you be the Church No we are content to say with Augustine Ask not us in this case we will not ask you but let this matter be tryed by the Scripture yea saith he let the Prophets Christ and his Apostles be Judge Yea we say further in his words Let matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason counted by authority of the Scriptures not proper to any but indifferent Witnesses to both parts My final Answer to the first of the seven Queries I have here published with as little alteration or addition as possibly I could to give the Reader a true understanding of the matters in difference And if you publish any thing hereupon I desire no fairer dealing from you than you have in this case from me I have seriously considered what should be the design of your Queries and hitherto it appears to be chiefly to exalt the authority of mens Traditions above the lively Oracles of God the Scriptures For though it should be granted which you can never prove that there hath continued a true Church at Rome ever since it was there planted yet would it not follow that all which your Church holdeth under the title of Ecclesiastical Tradition must needs be obeyed by us for it is certain that the Jews did retain the state of a true Church when yet their Traditions however by them accounted were but the Traditions of men which both the Prophets and Christ himself termed vain Worship especially such of them as made void the Commands of God as we are sure many of yours do and therefore as Christ said to them Why do you transgress the Command of God by your Tradition the same we are humbly bold to say to you when you ask us why we transgress your Traditions for surely of none can it more fitly be said than of you that laying
aside the Commandments of God you hold the Tradition of men THO. GRANTHAM THE BAPTIST AGAINST THE PAPIST The FIRST PART sheweth the SCRIPTURE and ROME to be in Contention about the SUPREAM SEAT of JUDGMENT in Controversies of RELIGION THe first of all Controversies is founded upon this Query What is the authoritative Judge of Controversies And indeed till there be some agreement in this point there can be no expectation of any fruitful issue of any Controversie Now all Controversies amongst the sons of men are reduceable to one of these two heads namely things humane or things divine things precisely pertaining to this life or things which only pertain to that which is to come concerns of a secular consideration or concerns of a religious consideration And according to the nature of these Controversies such ought the Judge for decision thereof to be Concerning this Judge of Religious Controversies there are divers opinions Some say that the Light or that of God in Every Man is this only infallible Judge of all Religious Controversies But if this be admitted a multitude of inconveniences must needs follow of which this is not the least That there can be no end of Controversies because if every man have this Judge of all Debates in himself and he aver that what he saith and doth is according to the voice of this Judge or that of God in him no man can take in hand to judge contrary thereunto without becoming the Judge's Judge and so violate the Rule proposed For this opinion refers not doubtful matters to that of God in some men or a select number of men but to that of God in every man There is another Opinion which saith That amongst all men which pretend to own Christ and challenge to themselves the title of his Church and yet do deny each other to have an interest in that title That amongst all such parties of the sons of men the only infallible and authoritative Judge of their Controversies about Religion is the LORD Himself as he speaketh by his Spirit in the holy Scriptures together with right Reason or thus which is all one The Apostles and Prophets as they speak in their holy Writings are the onely infallible authoritative Judge in these Controversies Yet three things are in this Opinion allowed first That the living voice of the Pastors with the Church in their respective Ages wherin they live are of great importance in order to the terminating strife in the Church as a Church Secondly That Records of Antiquity are of some usefulness for the resolving some Controversies and for the better discovery of some Errors yet not so absolutely necessary but that the Church may sufficiently resolve her Controversies without them Thirdly That there is a Judgment of Science to be allowed every man as touching all things which he chuseth or refuseth in matters of Religion to be used with moderation and discreet subjection And this is the Opinion to which for my part I do adhere There is another Opinion which saith That the Papal Church of Rome is the Supream Judge and Catholick Moderatrix of all Disputes in matters of Faith and that All are bound to hear and obey her Voice under pain of Damnation and that the Scriptures as taken in the second Opinion is not the Judge of Controversies Now this is the Opinion which at this time I am to examine which in much seriousness I humbly purpose to do and leave it to the sober consideration of all men And for the better discharge of this duty it is meet we should understand what the Papists mean by the Church of Rome And this I find that under that title they would involve the whole Church of Christ from the Apostles dayes until this present time at least all the Faithful since the time that Paul declares the Roman Church to have been famous as Rom. 1. 8. But this is the very thing denied by us for though we willingly grant that there was a very famous Church at Rome when Paul wrote his Epistle to them yet it followeth not that there is such a Church there now or that all that ever from that time to this have walked in the steps of true Faith must needs be supposed to have been Members of the Roman Church or rather of the Church of Rome so called especially since it was Papal So that in this Controversie they must be content to define the Church of Rome on this wise viz. All that in any Age since Christ was of the same Faith and Practice in things religious which is at this day found in the Papal Church of Rome and those only are the persons of whom the Papal Church of Rome doth consist And indeed this is as much as they can reasonably desire for if those holy men who lived in times past were of a Faith and Practice contradistinct to that which Rome hath now received Then may not the present Papal Church without wrong challenge them to be of their Church As for example Paul who bore witness for Christ at Rome and the Christians there in his dayes was of the Church of Christ at Rome yet we deny that they were any part of the Papal Church of Rome The Church of Rome therefore defined as before I do deny to be the infallible authoritative Judge of all Controversies about matters of Faith or Religion And I do further say That the Scriptures and right Reason as laid down in the second opinion much more deserves to be received for this supream Judge of Controversies than the Papal Church of Rome and that there is not an other Umpire that can so effectually decide the Controversies of Religion which depend between such parties of men as lay claim to the Title of Christ's Church and yet deny each other to have an interest therein And how far forth the truth in this Point hath been evidenced in that pro and con Discourse so far as it relateth to the first of them which hath been occasioned by the writing of the Seven Queries I have before spoken of is here offered to the Consideration of all sober men that profess to own the Glorious Gospel of the blessed God and our Saviour Jesus Christ The first Query of the Seven was this propounded by the nameless Papist PAPIST Whether we are to resolve all differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God BAPTIST To which Question these ensuing Answers were given before I received the Adversaries last Paper which with the Answers thereunto I will transcribe verbatim I say the Answers were That the word Controversies being understood of such Controversies only as depend between those parties of men who deny each other to be the Church that then there is no other way whereby WE can resolve those Controversies but by the assistance of God's Spirit speaking to us through the undoubted Prophets and Apostles and Primitive Churches in the lively Oracles of God the Scriptures of
Truth together with the help of right Reason in a way of subserviency to those divine directions Or if the word Controversies shall relate only to all such Controversies as fall within the compass of the Church that then to the former means we are to joyn the living Voice and Authority of the Church in present being assembled with her Pastours as the ordinary means appointed of God to terminate strife in the Churches But if the Division in the Church be so great as that it be not this way decissive or the Doubt so secret as not this way to be resolved there is not then a better way than for both Parties to reason it out till Truth and Innocency do prevail as the two Tribes and an half did with the other Tribes of Israel and prevailed Joshua 22. or in some doubtful cases the use of Lots may be admitted for the resolution of them Acts 1. PAPIST It is worth observing how many windings and turnings you have to avoid the difficulty of this Query Whether we are to resolve all differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God First you leave out the word only in which lay the very knot of the difficulty 2. Then you give me a piece of an Answer and keep in the living voice of the Church as a reserve for your Second Paper 3. When you are shewed how you for sake your old fort the sole sufficiency of Scripture as if you were afraid to come too near us you give back again and do your worst to discredit this living voice of the Church so that in effect it stands but for a meer cipher as I foresaw it would when it came once to the scanning 4. Upon second thoughts finding your error by putting the Query What is become of the living voice of the Church you shuffle again and would gladly make something of it but this something in the end falls to just nothing as I shall make it further appear by ripping up the particulars of this your last Answer BAPTIST I have used no windings to avoid the difficulty of the first Query but you are to know that when I first answered it I took the word Controversie to relate only to such Controversies as depend between such persons as deny each other to have any present right to either the Name or Priviledges of the Church And indeed I do not see how any other sense can be made of this Query for under that word WE I suppose you included no more but your self and Church on the one party and us to whom you sent the Queries on the other party and we well know that you account us no members of the Church and you likewise know that we have the same opinion of you but when your Observations or Second Paper took into the Query all Controversies which fall within the compass of the Church as such I could do no less than tell you that my Answer did not exclude the living voice of the Church in such cases but that my Answer doth only exclude every such voice as exalteth it self above the Spirit speaking in the Scriptures And whereas in your Third Paper you told me That to appeal to Councils and Fathers is a clear way to agree all our differences I told you that this is a very cloudy way and that because they are contrary to themselves and one another 2. Till they be agreed they cannot agree us 3. And sith you take not the Scripture as being of any authority till they as the Church give it you I demanded by what you would agree them in their divisions 4. And to shew you how they are divided I gave you divers Instances concerning their divisions as also touching the corruption which hath been found in divers Popes PAPIST 1. I had no reason to take notice of your excluding from the living voice of the Church every voice exalting it self above the voice of Scripture because it was a very needless Exception since the Church arrogates no such power but only to interpret the voice of Scripture 2. Why this way of taking the sense of Scripture from the living voice of the Church should be so cloudy as you say it is I do no more understand than that the living voice of a Judge should be a cloudy way to understand the Law by As for your Riddles how we are to reconcile the Fathers and Councils when they seem to clash with their own Assertions but by having recourse to Scripture I Answer briefly That General Councils have no such contradictions as you speak of And as for the holy Fathers when there is any such difficulty in any one of them we must look upon the rest what they say and to follow their unanimous consent for if we take them singly no doubt they have erred and these errors we know by their dissenting from the rest for otherwise certainly the authority of any one of the antient Fathers when he expounds Scripture or relates the Christian practice of his time and is not censured or contradicted by the rest or condemned by the Church in a General Council is of greater authority to decide Controversies in point of Religion or to know the true meaning of Scripture than any thing you have alledged as we shall see by and by when I have first examined what you bring to discredit the Fathers and Councils Against the Fathers you first bring St. Aug. retract 21. contradicting himself by saying that Matth. 16. Christ built not his Church upon Peter but upon Peter 's Faith sure you read not St. Aug. for he there expounds that place of Christ himself and not of the Faith of St. Peter nor doth he recal his expounding it elsewhere of St. Peter but leaves both Expositions as probable concluding thus Hunc autem sententiam quae sit probalitur eligat lector Is this fair dealing Again you bring in St. Aug. contra Petil. c. 2 3 4. as contrary to himself and me because he teaches That the Church is to be found out by the words of Christ But though I doubt you cannot make this appear in any of these three Chapters yet were it nothing to the purpose for we deny not but the Church is to be found out by these clear marks whereby the holy Scripture hath deciphered her Next you alledge St. Chrysost in Psal 22. and St. Ambrose de Sacrament calling the Blessed Sacrament a similitude or figure of Christ's Body and Blood I Answer 1. That it is the Opinion of the Learned that neither St. Chrysost nor indeed any Grecian could be Author of that work 2. I say the Sacrament may be truly called the similitude of Christ's Body and Blood because it is not given in the form of flesh and blood of which men would have a horror as the same St. Amb. observes but under the Forms of Bread and Wine The next is St. Dinis Eccl. Herarch but quoting no place I have not yet met
point of Faith Secondly The Council of Ephesus did err so as to conclude for the Eutichian Heresie namely That the Body of Christ was not of one Substance with ours and is not this an errour in point of Faith Or will you say that these things were never contradicted and censured by other Councils These things are not denied by your eminent Disputant See the Book intituled Certamen Religiosum So then it appears that General Councils have erred and contradicted each another in very high points of Faith Moreover as to the things whereof I chiefly spake in my last Paper it is manifest that Councils have contradicted one another about the Sacraments for the Council of Constance confirmed by Pope Martin the Fifth doth curse the Laity or excommunicate such as receive the Sacrament in both kinds And yet by the Council of Basil the Laity are allowed to receive it in both which Council was also confirmed by a Pope namely Felix the Fifth Sure one of these Councils must needs err But you have a way to salve this errour such as it is and that is to tell me That the Church may vary in customs of this nature Sure this is a corrupt opinion by which it will follow That we have no certainty of nor constancy in any Ordinance of Christ for if the Church have power to take the Cup away she hath power also to take the Bread away for certainly she hath as much to do with the one as the other But truly this your variation as it is clear beside the Institution of Christ and the Doctrine of Paul so it hath in a manner destroyed both Baptism and the Supper of the Lord as is evident by the practice used in divers of your Masses where the People partake neither of the Bread nor Cup. As also your Peda-Rantism hath in a great measure defrauded the Sons of men of the Baptism of Repentance But be pleased to consider that this your sacrilegious division of this Sacrament is condemned by Cyprian Gelasius and others First Cyprian saith How can we exhort the People to shed their blood for Christ if we deny them the Blood of him The division of this Mystery cannot be without great Sacriledge saith Gelasius Again you cannot be ignorant how the Council of Carthage decreed the Books of Tobit Judith Ecclesiasticus Sapience and Maccabees should be received for Canonical notwithstanding they were rejected out of the sacred Canon by the Council of Laodicea and here by the way I may take notice how you would have me walk by such a rule as you your self do not observe for you propose the Judgment of those who lived nearest to the Apostles times as my safest rule to walk by supposing they knew the Mind of God or Christ better than those that came after but then why do you reject the Judgment of the Laodicean Council which is more antient than that of Carthage which yet you follow in receiving the Books of Maccabees into your Canon of holy Scripture Secondly It is marvellous to see what work you make in reconciling the Fathers without the Scriptures And seeing you are so hardy as to undertake this task without Scripture as undoubtedly you see you must or else grant that the Scripture must be that whereby we must decide all Controversies in Religion for certainly if we must decide all the Fathers Controversies in Religion with or by the Scripture it is not then very likely that either we or they should decide ours without them but I say sith you have undertaken to decide the Fathers Differences without Scripture pray tell me before you meddle with their Differences how you know them to be holy Fathers of the Church can you prove them Church-members without Scripture I believe this is as hard a task as to reconcile their Differences without Scripture and yet this also must you do before you can look upon the Scripture as any Rule for either them or your self You tell me if I take the Fathers singly no doubt they have erred yet you say I must follow their unanimous Consent a pretty Paradox Follow their Consent in what why say you in their Interpretation of Scripture Of Scripture Why there is no such thing as yet for them to interpret for you know that by your own direction we have laid by the Scripture and must reconcile these Fathers by themselves Miserable Guide hast thou not led me into a Labyrinth and run thy self into a sufficient Maze I 'le back again and see how these Fathers themselves direct me in this difficult point And first I meet with famous Augustine who tels me how he took notice of the Fathers that were before him Saith he My consent without exception I owe not to any Father were he never so well learned but only to the Canonical Scripture For whereas the Lord hath not spoken who of us can say it is this or that and if he do say so how can he prove it Yea saith he I require the voice of the Shepherd reade me this matter out of the Prophets Psalms the Gospel or the Apostles Epistles Neither saith he ought we to take the dispensations OF ALL MEN how CATHOLICK SOEVER they be or be they never so commendable as we take the canonical Scriptures as though we may not saving the honour that 's due to such men reprove or refuse any thing of their Writings if we find they meant otherwise than the Verity doth allow by the help of God found by us or by others Again he saith I am not moved with Cyprian's Epistles for I do not take the Letters of Cyp. as the Canonical Scripture but I do try his Writings BY THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURE and whatsoever in them doth agree with the Authority of the holy Scripture I do receive it with his Commendation and whatsoever doth not I do by his good leave refuse it And for further testimony of Augustine's integrity hear what he saith of himself Trust not me saith he nor credit my Writings as if they were Canonical Scripture but whatsoever THOU findest in the Word although thou didst not believe it before yet ground thy Faith on it now and whatsoever thou readest of mine unless thou know it certainly to be true give no certain assent unto it Again he thus teacheth We must be partakers of other mens Writings wholly after the manner of Bees for they flie not alike to all Flowers nor where they sit do they snatch all quite away but snatching so much as may serve to their honey-making they take their leave of the rest Even so we if we be wise having gotten so much of others as is sound and agreeable to Truth we will leap over the rest Which rule if we keep in reading and alledging the Fathers words we shall not swerve from our Profession the Scriptures shall have the sovereign place and yet the Doctors of the Church shall lose no part of
Christ to be the Pillar of Truth so as that she was never so over-clouded with error but that she hath enjoyed the fruition of that Promise Matth. 16. in some good measure ever since it was made Nor shall she ever so close with the gates of Hell as by general consent and full authority to dissert that Faith which having Christ for its object is the Rock she is built upon and therefore you see I hold the Church cannot err in some sense and indeed he that holds the contrary must for ought I see raze out that Promise Matth. 16. and many other And yet nothing from all this accrues to the Papal Church of Rome I alledged Stephen as defending the Truth by the authority of Scripture Only c. Nor can it be groundedly imagined that had it been the mind of God that such as are not of the Church should be summoned to her Tribunal Stephen being full of the holy Spirit the leader into all truth would have omitted the use of that means but he knew that such authority the Church had none as I shewed from 1 Cor. 5. What have I to do to judge them that are without do not ye also judge them that are within And therefore he could not mention any such power And though Stephen did many wonders among the People yet at this time when he so powerfully vanquished his adversaries he did none at all but only overcame them by the assistance of the Spirit speaking in the Scripture c. I desired you to shew me but one Instance where ever any of the Primitive Saints did appeal to the Church of which they were present Members as Judge between them and such as never received their Doctrine but you have not done it nor indeed can it be done As I shewed that Stephen appealed to Scripture ONLY c. so I also shewed That it was the way of Christ and his Apostles frequently to vindicate their Doctrine against such as were not of their Church by appealing to the Scriptue especially amongst such as owned the Scripture this you confess and also you tell me that your Church doth the same But this cannot be true of All your Doctrine because you have told me That many Points of your Faith are resolved without the written Word of God or else you never answered my first Antiquery which demandeth What Controversie in Religion you can resolve without the written Word of God And in your Answer you assigned The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son Sabbath Infant-Baptism and MANY OTHER POINTS OF FAITH and I shall shew anon that we have it pro confesso from your Champions that there be some Points of your Faith which is not GROUNDED UPON nor MENTIONED IN the SCRIPTURES and therefore your Church cannot vindicate such Points of her Faith and Doctrine by the Scripture Although Christ sent Paul to Ananias for instruction yet it followeth not that we must take Romes instructions without Scripture Is there no difference between the time that now is and then was Much of the Scripture if not all the New Testament was then unwritten Again Ananias was immediatly sent of God If you are so sent prove it to us as Ananias did by shewing the Miracle of restoring Paul's sight If you are not so sent to what purpose do you alledge this Text I believe I might form you a monsirous Consequence here PAPIST You that will not trust the Churches Judgment lay down four wayes of resolving Doubts The first To argue it out till Truth prevail But if we must argue only out of Scripture and be our own Interpreters of it there can be no end of arguing as I have often shewed The second To appeal to God as the two Tribes did Josh 22. A rare way to end Controversies to look for Miracles in our Disputes The third To appeal to Scripture and right Reason But if I challenge them to be on my side who must take up the difference The fourth To cast Lots But though the Apostles did it who certainly were inspired to do so yet must not we presume to tempt God or to look for the like Miracles or to build our Faith upon such doubtful events BAPTIST You here wrong us to say that we will not trust the Judgment of the Church for the Church truly and universally taken we do credit as her that is appointed of the Father to be the Pillar and Ground of the Truth of which Church we take the Prophets and Apostles to be the principal Members and so in all Points of Faith to be credited in the first place But if by Church you mean the Papal Church of Rome I confess we dare not trust her Judgement at least not in all that she saith for example these following 1. Your Church tells us That it is not needful for the Scriptures to be read to or by the Laity in a tongue which they understand and that though they Pray after another in Latine though they understand not what they say yet such prayer is sufficient Rhem. Test Annot. in 1 Corinthians 2. Your Church tells us That the Sacrifice of your Masse is available to take away or obtain remission of sins by the work wrought Con. Trident. Sess 22. That the whole Masse is a propitiatory Sacrifice for the quick and dead and whoso saith it is only a commemoration of Christ's Death c. is accursed Con. Trent 3. Your Church holds That such as deny that the real Flesh and Blood of Christ is in the Bread and Wine of the Sacrament ought to be burnt to death 4. Your Church holds and tells us That Images and old clothes of Saints ought to be worshipped with religious Worship 5. That men are AS FULLY Justified by good Works AS THEY ARE DAMNED BY evil Works 6. That it is unlawful for Ministers of Christ to Marry 7. That the Scripture doth not contain all things necessary to Salvation To omit many other these are Points of your Churches Judgment which we dare not trust till by you or some other proved to be Truths I assigned the use of Lots as lawful in some doubtful cases to end Controversies and for proof I quoted Acts 7. and this you will not allow for two Reasons 1. Because you say the Apostles were inspired to use them but were it so as that you cannot prove yet it cannot be denied but we may do some things which they were inspired to do for the Holy Ghost was to lead them into all Truth and they were to lead us into the same Truth by their Example and Doctrine Joh. 16. 13. 1 Cor. 11. 1 2. And be it here observed That the Holy Ghost led those our Teachers to ordain the Ministry by Prayer and laying on of Hands Acts 6 and Acts 13. which practice of theirs is a good president to act by a president I say for this practice is not expresly commanded in Scripture no more than the use
avouch the Answer which I have given to this your first Query as will evidently appear to the impartial Reader of the several Quotations which I have before alledged and which do here follow The ANSWER to the FIRST QUERY Avouched sufficient by the Sentence of divers DOCTORS both Antient and Modern VVHether of us be Schismaticks ask not me I will not ask you Let Christ be asked that he may shew us his Church Neither must I alledge the Nicene Council nor you the Arimi I am neither bound to the one nor you to the other let the matter be tryed by the Scripture Augustine saith Let the Scriptures judge let Christ judge let the Apostles judge Yea it is confessed by the Papists that Aug. Optatus and Basil summoned their Adversaries to the arbitriment of holy Scriptures and did allow the sufficiency of holy Scripture to decide the Controversies depending between them In time past saith Chrysostome there were many wayes to know the Church of Christ viz. by good Life by Miracles by Chastity c. but from the time that Heresies did take hold of the Church it IS ONLY known by the Scripture which is the true Church Again he saith The Lord then knowing that so great confusion would come in the latter dayes therefore willed the Christians that would take to the sureness of true Faith to have refuge to nothing but to the Scripture otherwise saith he if they regard other things they shall perish not understanding what the true Church is Thus my Answer is avouched good as it respects the means to decide the differences which are about the Church Next hear what they say touching such differences as are in the Church Iren. If there be any disagreement risen up among Christians concerning Controversies in Religion what better course is there to be taken than to have our recourse into the Most antient Churches which must needs be those planted by the Apostles considering the time when he lived and to receive from thence what shall be certain and manifest Augustine Because the Scripture cannot deceive whoso feareth to be misled in the obscurity of this Question let him ask COUNSEL of that Church which the SCRIPTURE without any ambiguity pointeth out Constantine Mag. There are the Gospel the Prophets and Apostles which do teach us what to hold in Religion wherefore expelling all hostile and bitter contention let us seek the Solution of these Questions out of the Scriptures Thus spake this famous Emperor in the Council of Nice at what time the Bishops had like to have jarred into pieces THus have I given an impartial Relation of what hath passed between the Popish Querist and my Self in our two last Papers which contains the sum of what passed in the other as touching this Question about the Judge of Controversies And now for further satisfaction That the Scripture as aforesaid ought to be admitted the high Prerogative of Judge in our Debates consider that of necessity it must be so My reason is because either the Scripture or some other Writings must be our Judge especially in this important Question WHICH IS THE TRUE CHURCH For when we contend about her it is very unreasonable that any party contending for that title should be permitted to give Judgment in their own cause As for example The present Assembly of Papists say That they are the true Church and the present Assemblies of Baptists say That they are the true Church Is it fit that either party contending should here give Judgment decissive What then must we do why of necessity we must to some Writings whereby to be decided or agreed in this Controversie These Writings must be either the Scriptures or some other but no other can compare with those so that they do deserve this Prerogative better than any other The Papists ordinary way in this difficulty is to tell us that we must here be tryed by the Tradition of our Fore-fathers in which they say we cannot be deceived which Tradition they say is the only thing that is unquestionable and needs no other ground to stand upon but it self And against the Scripture's being received upon its own evidence or authority they usually do thus object that before we can receive what it teacheth we must be assured of its truth And again they say the Scripture may not be the Judge of Controversie because it may be corrupted translated ill interpreted not rightly understood And by these and other like objections they usually in all their Writings invalidate the Scriptures certainty authority and sufficiency that so they advance the authority of their Traditions But let it be seriously considered whether these Objections have not the same force against what they rest upon which they have against the holy Scripture First then whereas they tell us the Scripture cannot teach us any thing till we be assured of its truth Doth not this conclude against any other thing as strongly Ought we not to be assured of the truth of the Church before we receive her documents Ought we not to be assured of the truth of that Tradition which we receive for the Rule of our Faith But how must we be assured of the truth of the Papal Church and Tradition There is not a man living that can remember when either began and so avouch its beginning to be of divine Institution and the continnance of the same ever since its beginning to have been without any corruption What then must we do Why we must search Romes Records And then I ask are they not as questonable and liable to mis-interpretations as easily mis-understood as the Records of God What is now become of these Objections the force whereof is evidently against the Papal Church and her Traditions of the truth whereof we must be assured BEFORE we can be taught by either of them I say again There is not a man of all the Papists that can evidence Rome to have been a Church two hundred years ago and then much less one thousand six hundred years ago So that OF NECESSITY we must to the Writings of some men whom we never saw write one word to find the Church And then I would know why we may not make enquiry at the Pen of Paul what the Church was at first and what it ought to be now as well as at the Pen of Augustine Cannot the Pen of Peter the Apostle give us as good information in this matter as the Pen of any Pope pretending to be his Successor If the Papists answer That we know not the Pen of Peter or Paul We answer as well as they know the Pen of Augustine or Gregory If they say Paul's Writings may be corrupted and must be interpreted may be mis-understood I return the same Answer of all other Books whatsoever yea those which contains Romes Tradition See therefore what is gained by devising objections against the authority or certainty of the holy Scriptures Such