and writing Further it is false that a priuate spirit agreeing with the Catholicke Church in doctrine can be in that point of agreement the rule of faith For although the doctrine he teacheth be true yet is it not the rule of faith much lesse is he himselfe because of his authoritie but either as you say by reason of the authoritie of the Church or indeed as we truly affirme for that it is agreeable to the word of God in the Scripture called canonical because it is the rule of faith and manners Now for answer to your Syllogisme I say your Assumption is not simply true but onely so farre forth as the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church I speake as you do agreeth with the truth in the Scripture reuealed Neither doth Saint Paul speake of whatsoeuer doctrine receiued by your imagined Catholicke Church of Rome but of that which he himselfe or some other of the Apostles had taught the Galatians to whom he writeth that Epistle This it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore in your crastie discretion for bare to translate the Apostles words which for the most part you set downe alwayes as well in English as in Latine The reason lieth thus He that teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued of the Apostles is to be accursed for his preaching so But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued by the Apostles Therefore a priuate spirit teaching contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church is to be accursed for his preaching so Who seeth not that the truth of this Assumption dependeth vpon this point that the Catholicke Church hath receiued no other doctrine then that which the Apostles taught the Galatians But this hath as much need of sound proofe as that for the proofe whereof it is brought and therefore to dispute thus against any man that would hold a priuate spirit to be the rule of faith were to giue him occasion to laugh at you for begging the question in stead of prouing it But to make all men see how small force there is in this your reason for the keeping of a priuate spirit from being the rule of faith I will frame two other syllogismes against a publick spirit or Councel and against the Pope 1. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholick Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith 2. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith Haue you not spun a faire threed thinke you to choake the Popes and the Councels authoritie withall Call your wits about you and deuise some cleanly shift for the matter or I can tel you all wil be naught For your Religion is no more able to hold vp head if the Popes authoritie be cast downe then a man that hath neuer a leg is able to stand vpright It will go the harder with you in this matter because if I grant that the Pope cannot erre you are neuer a whit the nearer for the answering of my syllogisme as you may perceiue if you will but assay to apply that point for answer to either part thereof There is no other way but to giue ouer this your first reason against a priuate spirit and to make amends for it in the second if you can A. D. §. 3. Secondly the rule of faith must be infallible plainly knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall that is to say such as may sufficiently instruct all men in all points of faith without danger of errour as hath bene proued before But this priuate spirit is not such For first that man himselfe cannot be vnfallibly sure that he in particular is taught by the holy spirit For neither is there any promise in Scripture to assure him infallibly that he in particular is thus taught neither is there any other sufficient reason to perswade the same For suppose he haue such extraordinarie motions feelings or illustrations which he thinketh cannot come of himselfe but from some spirit yet he cannot in reason straightwayes conclude that he is thus moued and taught by the spirit of God For sure it is that euery spirit is not the Spirit of God As there is the spirit of truth so there is a spirit of errour As there is an Angell of light so there is a Prince of darknesse Yea sometimes Ipse Sathanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Sathan himselfe doth transfigure himselfe into an Angell of light Wherefore he had need very carefully to put in practise the aduise of Saint Iohn who saith Nolite credere omni spiritui sed probate spiritus si ex Deo sint Doe not beleeue euerie spirit but prooue and trie them whether they be of God or no. Neither doth it seeme sufficient that a priuate man trie them onely by his owne iudgement or by those motions feelings or illuminations which in his priuate conceit are conformable to Scripture because all this triall is verie vncertaine and subiect to errour by reason that our owne iudgement especially in our own matters is verie easily deceiued and that Sathan can so cunningly couer himselfe vnder the shape of a good Angell and so colour his wicked designements with pretense of good and so gild his darke and grosse errours with the glistering light of the words and seeming sense of scripture that hardly or not at all he shall be perceiued VVherefore the safest way were to trie these spirits by the touchstone of the true Pastours of the Catholicke Church who may say with S. Paul Nō ignoramus cogitationes Satanae we are not ignorant of the cogitations of Sathan and who may also say with S. Iohn Nos ex Deo sumus qui nouit Deum audit nos qui non est ex Deo non audit nos In hoc cognoscimus spiritum veritatis spiritum erroris VVe are of God he that knoweth God heareth vs he that is not of God doth not heare vs. In this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of errour Now if any will not admit this manner of trying discerning the spirit of truth from the spirit of errour but will trust their owne iudgement alone in this matter feare they may iustly nay rather they may be sure as Cassian saith that they shall worship in their thoughts the Angell of darknesse for the Angel of light to
beleeue a simple husbandman a child or an old woman rather then the Pope and a thousand Bb. if these speake against the Gospell and the other with it Then belike a priuate man may see some truth which is not generally discerned The place of Austin you bring doth not condemne all interpretations or opinions which some one man findeth out and holdeth but onely reproueth them who in expounding the places of Scripture which wil beare a diuers sense vrge one onely not because it is truth but because they like it best His example is out of Genesis concerning the sense of those words In the beginning God created heauen and earth They know not which of those diuers senses that may be Moses did intend saith Austin but they loue their owne opinion not because it is true but because it is their owne What doth this concerne vs who as we giue euery man of iudgement leaue to propound his interpretation to be examined so permit no man to thrust any exposition vpon the Church which he cannot make euident proofe of by sound reason Neither is it then taken as his priuate conceit but acknowledged as the truth of God manifested by his industrie In doubtfull places we follow the likeliest sense without any resolute determining what is true what false therefore cannot with any shew of reason be charged to appropriate the knowledge of Gods truth to our selues where it hath pleased his Maiestie so to propound it that of diuers senses a man cannot certainly affirme that this or that is true A. D. CHAP. X. That the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule of faith A. W. If you had mentioned nothing but the doctrine of the true Church we might haue vnderstood you without any cause of doubting but now you ad teaching to doctrine we are enforced to enquire farther into your meaning For we are vncertaine whether by those words you meane one and the same thing or no. The doctrine of the Church is that which the Church propoundeth to be beleeued whether by word of mouth or in writing Teaching if we make it differ from doctrine is that onely which is deliuered by voice to the eare If we vnderstand you in the former sense for teaching by writing as well as by word of mouth the latter word was needlesse if in the latter of writing onely then the same doctrine written is not the rule of faith which vttered by a teacher will become such a rule not because it is true but because it is taught by authoritie A. D. §. 1. The fourth conclusion is that this infallible rule which euery one ought to follow in all points of faith is the doctrine and teaching of the true Church or companie of the true faithfull of Christ A. W. That we may the better vnderstand what you say and how you proue your saying there are a few things to be considered in this fourth condition First by the faithfull of Christ you must meane those that professe Christian Religion whether they beleeue as they professe or no as I haue shewed out of Bellarmine who doubtlesse knoweth what the Church is as well as you If you be of any other opinion by your owne rule we may reiect it for the priuatnesse thereof Secondly where you say the true faithfull it is not your purpose to speake as we for whom you writ this commonly doe of them that haue a true iustifying faith but of them that professe the doctrine of the Gospell according to the true sense and meaning of it whether they haue any iustifying faith or no. Thirdly by this companie or Church whom vnderstand you If the whole number of the beleeuers as well Laitie as Cleargie I oppose the iudgement of your owne Doctours against you who speaking of the Churches doctrine and teaching restraine the word onely to the Pope and Bishops The spirit saith Bellarmine is certainly found in the Church that is in a Councell of Bishops confirmed by the chiefe Pastor of the whole Church or in the chiefe Pastor with a Councell of the other Pastors If you follow Bellarmine I demaund whether your Laity be none of the true faithfull of Christ nor parts of the Church But to leaue this doubt wee are thus to conceiue your meaning that the doctrine which the Pope and other Pastors of the Church namely Bb. deliuer in a Councell is the rule of faith Now let vs propound your reason and examine it but first I confesse that I dare not resolutely determine whether it be brought in by you for a proofe of any thing that hitherto hath bene spoken or intended onely as a discourse concerning the authoritie of the Church If we apply it to any matter alreadie past as farre as I am able to conceiue it must be a second proofe of the proposition or maior of your maine Syllogisme in this manner If the doctrine and teaching of the true Church be the infallible rule which all men ought to follow then the faith which the authority of the true Church commends to vs is to be holden for the true faith But the doctrine and teaching of the true church is the infallible rule that all men ought to follow Therfore the faith which the authoritie of the true Church commendeth to vs is to be holden for the true faith This reasonable coherence we may make betwixt this Chapter and your former course without changing or weakning any part or point of your proofe which is applied to the confirming of this last minor the argument of this Chapter A. D. §. 2. This I proue by this reason If our Sauiour Christ hath promised to any company of men the presence of himselfe and the assistance of his holy spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth giuing withall peculiar charge and commission to them to teach all nations and to preach to euery creature giuing also warrant to all that they may safely heare them giuing also commandement whereby he bindeth all to do in all things according to their saying and threatning greatly those who will not heare and beleeue them then certainly the doctrine and teaching of these men is in all points most true and infallible and such as if the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not as they are not wanting may well be proposed to all sorts as an assured ground whereupon they may safely build an infallible Christian faith For looke what our Sauiour Christ hath promised must needs be performed and whatsoeuer he warranteth or commandeth may safely and without danger of error be done nay must of necessitie be done especially when he threatneth those that will not do it and consequently if he haue promised to send his holy Spirit to teach any companie of men all truth it is not to be doubted but that he sendeth this his holy Spirit and by it teacheth them all truth and fith the teaching of his
Spirit is vnfallible we are not to doubt but that this companie is in all points infallibly taught the truth If also the same our Sauiour gaue warrant and commandement that they should teach vs and that we should heare them and do in all things according to their saying we may not likewise doubt but that they shall be able to teach all sorts of men in all points the infallible truth and that all sorts of men may if they will learne of that companie what in all points is the infallible truth For otherwise by this generall commaundement of hearing them and doing according to their saying we should be bound somtime to heare and beleeue an vntruth and to doe that which were not vpright and good which without blasphemie to Christ his veritie and goodnesse can no way be thought A. W. 1 If our Sauiour Christ say you hath promised to any companie his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature 3 If he haue giuen warrant to all that they may safely heare them 4 If he haue giuen commaundement to all to doe in all things according to their saying 5 If he haue threatned them who will not heare and beleeue them 6 If the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not wanting then the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow But our Sauiour Christ hath so 1. promised 2. charged 3. warranted 4. commaunded 5. threatned and 6. the other conditions required are not wanting Therefore the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow I haue propounded this Syllogisme as your selfe haue set it downe saue onely that I haue endeuored to make it somewhat shorter keeping your sense whole and full Now for the proposition I grant the consequence vpon all those conditions ioyntly considered to be sound and good Howsoeuer some of them might well haue bene omitted for example 1 If our Sauiour haue promised his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to teach a certaine companie of men all truth then the doctrine of the Church is the rule of faith This consequence is but weake for Christ may affoord such presence and assistance to such a purpose and yet the effect not ensue by reason that those men faile in some duties required on their part Do not you affirme in this Treatise that God hath appointed meanes of saluation for all men with a true will to haue them saued and yet verie many yea the greatest part are not saued 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature then their preaching is the rule of faith Their commission is not simply to teach but to teach those things that our Sauiour himselfe commaunded and therefore their doctrine can be no farther the rule of faith then they preach according to their commission If I or an Angell from heauen saith the Apostle preach vnto you otherwise then that you haue receiued let him be accursed The same may be obiected against the third and the fifth points It doth not follow that their doctrine is the rule of faith because all men haue warrant to heare them safely or because they are threatned who will not heare and beleeue them For first they may be free from danger of erring and yet not know all points of faith which is made by you one condition of the rule Secondly vnlesse you enlarge the warrant as farre as the commaundement in the fourth point which is in a manner to confound them so that they may safely heare them in all things your consequence will still be naught Thirdly they may heare them safely though the other may erre if they haue means affoorded to examine that they deliuer skill and care to vse those meanes Fourthly the threatning for not beleeuing is to be restrained to their teaching as they ought Are not they threatned by our Sauiour who beleeue not any Minister lawfully authorised and preaching the truth Yet doth it not follow hereupon that they cannot erre or that their preaching is simply the rule of faith But these feeble consequences might all haue bene omitted by you and your matter as fully prooued if you had set downe none but the fourth and sixth points thus If God haue commaunded all men to doe in all things as the Church teacheth and the other conditions required in the rule be not wanting then their preaching is the rule that all men ought to follow This consequence is true and sufficient for your purpose the other serue for number to make a shew rather then for substance of weight But of your Maior this may be sufficient especially since I acknowledge the truth thereof A. D. §. 3. But so it is that Christ our Sauiour hath in holy Scripture promised giuen commission warranted commaunded and threatned in manner aforesaid Therefore we cannot doubt but that there is a certaine company the which is called the true Church of Christ which both is in all points of faith infallibly taught by the holy Spirit and is likewise to teach all sorts of men in all points of faith what is the infallible truth and therefore the teaching of this companie may well be assigned and proposed to all men as an vndoubted sufficient rule of faith A. W. I denie your Minor first in generall because our Sauiour did not so promise charge warrant commaund threaten in regard of any companie of men as if there had bene some ioynt teaching appointed by him but in respect of his Apostles and Ministers seuerally who in their proportion haue as much authoritie for necessitie of being beleeued seuerally one by one as iointly all together though such a ioynt consent is the more to be reuerenced and respected Secondly I denie it also in the fourth point which is the strength of it There neuer was since the Apostles any man or any companie of men according to whose saying we were commaunded to doe in all things Lastly I say the conditions required in the rule of faith are wanting in the teaching you vnderstand This conclusion of yours giueth me occasion to speake somewhat at large of the Church with the name whereof applied to your Pope alone or Pope and Cleargie you daily seduce many vnsetled and ignorant people The word Church in our English tongue seemeth first of all to haue bene applied to the Temple or place of Gods seruice as if it were called Kyrke of the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you would say the Lords house But the Hebrew Greek words which must be the Iudges in this matter signifie a Companie Congregation or Assemblie The Hebrew words are two the Greeke as many the Latin besides the two Greeke made Latin are diuers Populi people Coetus
companie congregatio congregation multitudo multitude turba troope concio assembly exercitus armie But the two Greeke words are best knowne Ecclesia and Synagôga the former whereof commeth of the Hebrew retaining almost the signification and sound thereof In this they all agree that they note vnto vs a companie or assembly But because the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the word that most of all concerneth this question let vs enquire of that the more diligently The word for the nature of it signifieth any companie called together generally any assembly lawfully or vnlawfully orderly or disorderly assembled Of lawful assemblies there is no question of vnlawfull we haue an example in the Scripture where the people of Ephesus tumultuously ranne together against Paul and Apollos So doth the Hebrew word signifie in the Psalmes where the Greeke and Latine translate by the same word I haue hated the assembly of the wicked But in the new testament except that one place of the Acts it is alwaies applied to them that make profession of religion In which sense it is sometimes vsed indefinitely God hath ordained some in the Church first Apostles c. So the Apostle Paul saith that he had persecuted the Church of God Thus may we also vnderstād that The house of God which is the Church of the liuing God If we conceiue that the Apostle speaketh to Timothie as to an Euangelist and not as to the Pastor or Bishop of Ephesus Hitherto may those places be referred The Lord added to the Church from day to day And great feare came on all the Church Herode stretched forth his hand to vexe certaine of the Church and such like though they may also be vnderstood of the beleeuers at those times ordinarily abiding in Ierusalem and assembling themselues together in one or which is the likelier in diuers congregations for exercise of religion More particularly and vsually the Church is taken for anie one congregation assembled about matters of religion It seemed good to the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church Not as if the Apostles and Elders had bene no members of that Church but the principall being first named the generall terme is added which comprehended all as if they should haue said The Apostles and Elders and all the rest of the Church at Ierusalem whereof as it was a particular congregation the Apostles at that time were not members And in this meaning may a Councell of diuers parishes prouinces or nations be called by the name of a Church and in the like sort may we call the assemblies congregations in Rome Coriath Ephesus the Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus because of some common synod or because by the terme Church the beleeuers are signified Most vsually the seuerall congregations in any countrie or Citie are called Churches because of their ordinarie assembling Then had the Churches rest through all Iudea When they had ordained them Elders by election in euery Church VVe haue no such custome nor the Churches of God When the title is applied to particular families it hath no other meaning as I take it then to note them for Christians or beleeuers Greet the Church that is the beleeuers which are in their house And thus much of the Church as it signifieth generally Beleeuers The word Church is vsed in the scriptures and that verie often not for all but onely for some beleeuers namely for such as are indeed true beleeuers in respect of true faith in Iesus Christ and these are alwaies of the elect who are then called the Church when they are brought to the knowledge of the truth and to Iustifying faith Therefore when we say that the Church signifieth the elect or predestinate we meane onely such of the elect as by faith are members of our Sauiours bodie he being the head For howsoeuer in the secret Counsell of God many not yet borne be predestinate to euerlasting life yet they are not to be accounted of this Church before it hath pleased God to call them to beleeue in Christ Examples of the Church thus taken amongst many are these Vpon this rocke I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it God hath giuen Christ aboue all the head of the Church So the Church is called Christs bodie This may serue concerning the meaning of the wotd out of which I obserue this point that since the terme Church is so diuersly taken in the scripture no argument from any place of Scripture can be of force to prooue any question till the signification of the word in that place be euident and certaine And therefore it is not enough for proofe of a matter in controuersie betwixt vs to alledge a text of Scripture where such a thing is spoken of the Church but it stands vs vpon to prooue that in the place we alledge by Church the companie we intend is signified This being vnderstood and remembred I come now to the seuerall points in your Minor A. D. §. 4. The promise of our Sauiour Christ we haue first in the Gospell of Saint Matthew Ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi I am with you all the daies vntill the end of the world in which words is promised the continuall presence of Christ himselfe who is veritas the truth it selfe with his Church not for a while then or for a while now but all the daies vntill the end of the world Secondly we haue an other promise in the Gospell of Saint Iohn Ego rogabo Patrem alium paracletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiscum in aeternum Spiritum veritatis I will aske my Father and he will giue you an other paraclite the spirit of truth that he may remaine with you not onely for 600. yeares but for euer And againe in the same Saint Iohn to shew vs for what purpose he would haue his holy Spirit remaine among vs for euer he saith Paracletus quem mittet Pater in nomine meo ille vos docebit omnia suggeret vobis omnia quaecunque dixero vobis The paraclite whom my Father will send in my name shall teach you all things and shall put you in minde of all things whatsoeuer I shall say vnto you And againe Cum venerit ille Spiritus veritatis docebit vos omnem veritatem When that spirit of truth shall come he shall teach you all truth A. W. The first point of your Minor is that Christ promiseth his presence and the assistance of his spirit to teach them all truth First I demaund whether our Sauiours presence be for the teaching of all truth or no or whether that be onely the office of the spirit If the former to what purpose is the spirit promised whom our Sauiour hath appointed his vicegerent as it were in that matter as the other places you alledge prooue
If it belong to the spirit how is the presence of Christ applied therunto But to answer directly to the place thus you dispute If Christ haue promised to be with a companie of men till the end of the world then he hath promised it that he might teach the Church all truth But he hath promised to be with a companie of men till the end of the world Therefore he hath promised it that he might teach them all truth Admit all this were granted yet would it not follow hereupon that the Church therefore could not erre because as I answered before perhaps they would not haue care to learne and remember all though our Sauiour were readie to teach them all I denie the consequence of your proposition First because they to whom our Sauiour maketh this promise are not the Church as you vnderstand the Church that is the Cleargie of whose teaching you wholy speake but the faithfull ioyntly and seuerally as well hearers as teachers as well euery one as all together This appeareth by the text Go teach all nations c. and behold I am with you till the end of the world With whom With you that teach only Nay rather with al beleeuers for all which he praied as well as for the teachers So haue the ancient writers expounded and vnderstood this place He doth not say he will be with them onely saith Chrysostome but also with all that shall beleeue after them For the Apostles were not to continue to the end of the world but he speaketh to the faithfull as to one bodie Christ sheweth saith Jerome that he will neuer depart from them that beleeue So doth Cyprian make it common to all beleeuers that confesse the truth of God in time of triall So doth Leo to all that are adopted He that is gone vp into Heauen saith Leo doth not forsake them that are adopted So Beda he remaineth with his elect in this world protecting thē To which purpose S. Austin saith that this promise is fulfilled by our Sauiour in that he is present according to his maiestie according to his prouidence according to his vnspeakable and inuisible grace With all that beleeue saith Gaudentius I will be with you that is saith Denys the Charterhouse monke with you and your successors and with all the faithfull or militant Church And thereupon he gathereth that the faith shall neuer wholy faile but Christian religion shall continue in some till the end of the world The like collection Rabanus maketh Hereby saith he it is vnderstood that there shall neuer be some wanting till the ende of the world who shall be worthie or fit for God to dwell in The Councell of Vienna as Gregorie de Valentia saith expounded the place of Christ being present in the Sacrament which is common to all beleeuers lib. 3. Clement de relique vener sanctorum c. si Dominum Secondly the consequence is naught because the ende of Christs presence is not to teach the Church all truth but to protect and defend them by his power in the profession of the truth So it is applied as we heard before by Cyprian to the comfort of the Christians then imprisoned for religion So doth Austin take it that he is present by his prouidence and diuine Maiestie The same is Haymo his iudgement and exposition But Martialis is most plaine who by this promise exhorteth thē of Tholouse in France to perseuere in the profession of religion because our Sauiour Christ will neuer leaue thē but alwaies be present with them He confirmeth and encourageth them saith Theophylact because he sent them to the Gentiles into dangers and hazards of their liues And Chrysostome thinketh wherein also Theophyl secondeth him that our Sauiour mentioneth the end of the world because he would haue them with more patience and constancy endure what soeuer hard measure for a time vpon earth in regard of the ioyes whereof they should be made partakers in the world to come If then this promise of our Sauiour belong to all euery true beleeuer if it be vttered for the comfort of all such that they may rest vpon his mighty protection who seeth not that an impossibilitie of your Cleargies erring cannot be concluded from it 1 The places of Iohn are thus to be concluded If our Sauiour haue promised the spirit of truth to a certain company of men to abide with thē for euer teach thē all truth then the teaching of these men is an assured ground of faith But Christ hath promised the spirit so to a certain cōpany of men Therfore the teaching of these men is an assured ground of faith First I answer that your conclusion proueth not the point in question because this companie to which the promise is made is not the Church from time to time but that promise belongeth to the Apostles either onely or at the least principally in such a measure of being taught The former may thus appeare because our Sauiour speaketh of another comforter in respect of his owne bodily departure from them which cannot belong to the Church now with which Christ was neuer present in that sort Secondly this spirit promised was to bring all things that Christ had taught to their remembrance whom he should teach But this cannot belong to the present Church nor to any Church since the Apostles Thirdly this sending of the spirit was performed when the holy Ghost came vpon the Apostles which doth not befall the Church now a dayes Fourthly the same spirit was to shew them the things to come either concerning themselues in particular or by giuing them the gift of prophesie which now the Church hath not Thus do Tertullian and Austin vnderstand these places applying them to the Apostles so doth Iansenius bishop of Gaunt so Chrysostome and Theophylact so your ordinary Glosses and Lyra. And whereas this interpretation may seeme to be refuted by the place it selfe because the spirit must abide with them to whom he is promised for euer that is expounded by Chrysostome to signifie his continuance with them euen after death also Which Theophylact sets out more at large His companie with you saith our Sauiour shall not be for a time as mine but shall continue for euer neither shall it faile when you are dead but shall remaine with you and shall make you more glorious He promiseth saith your Glosse that the spirit shall do all not that all is fulfilled in this life This Comforter saith Lyra shall not be taken from you as my humane nature is drawne away by death but shall be with you eternally here by grace but in the world to come by glorie We may perhaps conceiue our Sauiours meaning to be no more but that the spirit which hee would send should not leaue them as he was to do but should abide
with them to the very end of their liues for their instruction and comfort neither of which are needfull any longer then while we are in this world They that apply these promises to all the elect also for to any visible companie of men I thinke besides you Papists no man doth neither make for your opinion because they tie them not to any companie but giue euery true Christian his like part in the priuiledge of this spirit and as we heard ere while out of your ordinary Glosse leaue some truth to be reuealed in the life to come I do not thinke saith Austin that in this life the promise of being taught all truth can be fulfilled in any mans mind For who liuing in this bodie which is corrupted and presseth downe the soule can know all truth when the Apostle saith We know in part By which it is also apparent that according to Austins iudgement for euer may be vnderstood of continuing after this life Secondly if these places proue that the Church is a sure foundation or rule of faith it must follow that euery particular teacher is so For eueryone of them to whom our Sauior made these promises was seuerally according thereunto taught all truth and not all ioyntly as if they might haue erred being seuered which you confesse of your Church and therefore this teaching appertaineth not to it Of the seuerall places I say further that in the first of them there is no mention of teaching all truth but onely of sending the spirit of truth That is saith Theophylact the spirit not of the old Testament for that was a figure and a shadow but of the new which is the truth The spirit of truth saith Lyra because he is essentially the truth and teacheth the truth He calleth him the spirit of truth saith Iansenius because he is the author of all truth and the only giuer of pure and sound truth For he onely teacheth the truth without mixture of any falshood or error Also he only teacheth the truth wherein the saluation of man consisteth In the second place you haue followed the vulgar Latine against the truth of the Greeke and sense of the text The Greek is All that I haue told you not as you translare it All that I shall say vnto you It is the praeter tense saith your B. Iansenius not the future in the Greeke So do Pagnin Vatablus and Montanus translate it The holy Ghost saith Theophylact shall make you vnderstand those things that are obscure and hard For those things that seeme hard vnto you I told you when I remained with you Your interlined Glosse referreth teaching to the vnderstanding and putting in mind to the will He shall teach you saith the Glosse that you may know and suggest that you may will Tell me then why I may not gather from hence that the Church shal not erre in manners or at least shall haue true faith in heart not onely in profession But it is certain that it is possible the greater part of a Councell yea and the Pope himselfe may be without true faith and it is enough to make a man a member of your church that he professe outwardly By all truth our Sauiour meaneth all truth necessary to saluation saith Iansenius So your Glosse Theophylact referreth it to the truth of those things which were shadowed out in the law and by the discouerie of the truth to be abolished Hugo restraineth it to all truth concerning Christ himselfe But let vs take all truth as largely as you can reasonably conceiue it Wil it follow therupō trow you that therefore the teaching of the Church is the rule of faith May not the Church be taught all truth by the holy Ghost and yet teach some deuice of her owne which she neuer learned of him It is one thing to teach a man all truth and another to keepe him so that he shal deliuer nothing but that truth Your Minor therefore is false because this first part of it is so A. D. §. 5. The charge and commission is plaine in S. Mathew Euntes docete omnes gentes Going teach all nations And in S. Marke Euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate Euangelium omni creaturae Going into the whole world preach the Gospell to euery creature A. W. The charge which our Sauior gaue for preaching the Gospell to all nations was no commaundement to his Church that is to the companie of the beleeuers or to the Cleargie as you speake in all ages but a commission to the Apostles and first Disciples for the performance of that dutie The reason why it is deliuered so at large may be gathered out of Mathew 10. ch where at their first sending they were limited to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel and barred from going to the Gentiles Go not saith our Sauiour into the way of the Gentiles and into the cities of the Samaritans enter not but go rather to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel And that this charge belongeth not to men now a dayes it is euident because neither doth our Sauiour bestow the gift of tongues to that purpose as he did on those whom he sent to that worke neither can we haue any calling to such a purpose hauing no gifts for it yet do not we denie but that it is lawfull for Princes who haue by conquest or otherwise the gouernment of strange nations to see that they be instructed in the faith yea we thinke this lieth vpon them as a necessary dutie Neither do we barre any man of taking whatsoeuer oportunitie God shall giue to preach the Gospell to any people A captiue maide was by the blessing of God made the meanes of conuerting the Iberians from heathenisme to Christianitie the King of that people as the historie saith becoming the Apostle of his nation Frumentius and Aedesius being caried into India when they were yong were afterward employed by God for the instructing of the Indians in true religion But your minor is not proued by that commission Christ commanded his Apostles and Disciples in the beginning of the Church to preach to all nations therefore the Church hath commission to do the like now Besides this charge was layd vpon euery one of the Apostles and all the disciples so furnished with the gift of tongues according as the Apostles thought it meete to employ them Doth this commandement bind your church that is either your Pope who wil not preach at home much lesse will he go abroade to all quarters of the world or your Councels who seuerall are not the church And this charge lay vpon them to whom it was giuen seuerally and was not a matter to be performed by all together in one place Therefore your minor is false also in the second part of it concerning the charge which you say is giuen to
are professedly against him Fourthly it may be that by the Church our Sauiour vnderstandeth according to the custome of the Iewes in those daies not any assemblie of the Cleargie about Church causes but generally the Councell of the Elders which had power to end diuers matters betwixt parties of their owne nation After which example the Apostle willeth the Corinthians to appoint Iudges amongst themselues that they might not dishonor God the professiō of christianity by going to law one with another vnder infidels If this course take not effect then saith our Sauiour deale with him as thou wouldest mightst deale with an heathen or Publican by following the Law against him in what Court thou thinkest best for thy aduantage And this exposition as farre as I can yet see seemeth agreeable to the text it selfe the purpose of our Sauiour who seemeth to speake onely or especially of priuat abuses and quarrels as might be shewed by diuers reasons and in part hath bene by a learned writer to whom I referre the Reader in this point Fiftly it is more then manifest that our Sauiour speaketh not of hearing or not hearing the word but of some quarell or sinfull action at the most which also is to be determined or corrected in each seuerall congregatiō as the testimonies of Chrysostome Theophylact Iansenius and Bellarmine declare Tell the Church not the vniuersall Church spread ouer the face of the earth but that particular Church in which euery man liueth and to which he is subiect saith Lucas of Bruges There is a treatise that goes vnder Cyprians name wherein the author out of this place concludeth that euery man must seeke to his owne Bishop All these things considered let euery one iudge whether this peece of scripture be fitly applied by you to proue that we must beleeue without doubting whatsoeuer the Church deliuereth But I wil propound the reason that all men may vnderstand and consider it If he that being proceeded withall first by admonition of one man alone then by the like with one or two witnesses lastly by the gouerners of the Church concerning some quarrell or matter of fact will not obey the voyce of the Church must be to vs as an heathen or a Publican then whosoeuer wil not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture But he that being so proceeded against in such a matter will not obey is so to be accounted of Therefore he that will not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture I haue framed this Syllogisme as euery man may see with the greatest aduantage that can reasonably be taken by this place to your purpose whereas I needed not haue allowed the interpretation on which the reason is grounded Al which notwithstanding who discerneth not the weaknesse of the consequence in the proposition What if such a man be so to be accounted of doth it follow therupon that euery one who beleeueth not the Church in all points is threatned First vnlesse the same course of proceeding be held why should the partie be threatned because where such a course is taken there a man is to be so reckoned of Secondly how doth it follow that if in iudgement concerning a matter of fact the Church must be hearkned to for reformation then in all matters whatsoeuer it is absolutely to be heard by all men Such are your proofes in points of greatest importance I refer the Reader to that which I answered before concerning this place to which I adde vpon the present occasion that our Sauiour sending forth his Ministers to preach the Gospell chargeth them to square their doctrine according to those things which they had receiued in commission from him therfore are they no farther to be obeyed then their preaching is warrantable for the particulars out of our Sauiours instructions giuen them which the Apostles directed by Gods spirit truly and faithfully deliuered first by word of mouth and after by writing to be the pillar as Irenaeus saith and foundation of our faith And if this place conuey any such authoritie to the Church it giueth the same to euery seuerall teacher as it did to euery one of the Apostles seuerally and so euery priest secular or regular must be heard and beleeued whatsoeuer he teach A. D. §. 9. Thus you see our Sauiour Christ hath promised to his Church the continuall presence of himselfe and of his holy Spirit to teach that companie all truth Whereof followeth that it is infallibly taught all truth Moreouer he hath giuen charge and commission to that Church to teach vs and hath warranted and commaunded vs in all points to heare and do according to the saying of this Church which proueth that it appertaineth to this church to instruct vs in all points of faith and that we ought to learne of it in all matters of religion what is the infallible truth and consequently that the doctrine of this Church is the rule of faith A. W. Neither we nor you can see any such thing if we looke no farther then the holy Ghost directeth vs who assureth vs of no more but that the Apostles should be so instructed and guided that they should not erre in their teaching either by word of mouth or by writing by reason of ignorance or any other peruerse affection and that all the childrē of God shall be so taught and protected that they shall neuer fall away from saluation by Christ As for your Church or certaine companie that is your Cleargie and Pope assembled in a generall Councell neither those places of Scripture you haue brought nor any other you can bring once make mention of any such promise to them Therefore haue we no warrant to heare and doe in all points according to the saying of any Church not onely not of yours but so far as that Church teacheth according to the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ in the Scripture which is the rule of faith A. D. §. 10. Worthily therefore doth S. Paul call this Church columnam firmamentū veritatis the pillar and ground of truth Worthily also saith S. Austin Scripturarum à nobis tenetur veritas cum id facimus quod vniuersae placet Ecclesiae quam earundem Scripturarum commendat authoritas vt quoniam Scriptura sancta fallere non potest quisquis falli metuit huius obscuritate quaestionis Ecclesiam de illa consulat quam sine vlla ambiguitate Scriptura sancta demonstrat The truth of the Scriptures is holden of vs when we do that which pleaseth the vniuersall or whole Church the which is commended by the authoritie of the Scriptures themselues that because the holy Scripture cannot deceiue whosoeuer feareth to be deceiued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgement of the Church which without any ambiguitie the holy Scripture doth demonstrate by which words he sheweth plainly that the sentence of
Church of God But it is absurd both in reason and religion to preferre the iudgement of any priuate man be he neuer so wittie and learned or neuer so strongly perswaded in his owne minde that he is taught by the Spirit before the iudgement and definitiue sentence of the Church of God the which is a companie of men many of which both are and alwayes haue bene vertuous wise and learned and which is chiefe is such a companie as according to the absolute and infallible promises of our Sauiour hath vndoubtedly the holy spirit among them guiding them and teaching them all truth and not permitting them to erre as before hath bin proued A. W. There is the same fault in this fift argument which was in the former that it is brought to proue a proposition which we denie not If before we giue absolute credit to the Church we must iudge whether euery particular point it holdeth be true or no then we may make our selues iudges ouer the true Church But we may not make our selues iudges ouer the true Church Therefore we must not iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no before we giue absolute credit to the Church This conclusion supposeth that which can neuer be proued that we are first or last to giue absolute credit to the Church whereof in this Chapter there is no question The point you vndertake to disproue is that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is a good marke of a true Church This therfore you should haue concluded though indeed it make nothing against our opinion who require not for a marke of the true Church truth of doctrine in euery point but in all points fundamentall Your proposition is deceitfully propounded as if we granted a companie to be the true Church and yet would take vpon vs to receiue and reiect what we list whereas we hold that we cannot acknowledge any true Church but we must withall yeeld that it maintaineth all substantiall points of Religion from which we may not vary Secondly for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church is to take authoritie vpon him to censure reproue and condemne the Church wheras all that we desire is that it may be free for vs to discerne that the doctrine held by this or that Church is agreeable to the Scriptures before we acknowledge it to be a true Church It is meere absurd and vnreasonable to prefer any priuate mans iudgement before the definitiue sentence of the church of God But it is agreeable both to reason and Religion that euery priuate man whose saluation lieth vpon his true or false beleeuing should consider whether that which he is enioyned by men to beleeue be warrantable by the word of God or no. The Scribes and Pharises were the leaders of the people in the matters of Religion yet were they blinde guides and the blind people by depending vpon their iudgement were caried headlong into the same pit of destruction with them Were not the men of Beroea commended by the holy Ghost for searching the Scriptures that they might see whether the doctrine deliuered by Paul were agreeable thereto or no And yet shall it be a fault in vs to enquire of the same Scripture concerning the doctrine of your Apostaticall synagogue I say farther it is against reason and Religion to prefer any one mans iudgement before the definitiue sentence of many wise vertuous and learned men such as the Church hath vsually some amongst the members thereof But it is most reasonable and religious to prefer the truth of God manifested by one simple man before the contrary determination of all that euer haue bin or shal be of the Church though neuer so wise vertuous and learned This is that which we teach concerning this matter First that no man is bound to take any thing for a matter of faith but that which is proued to him by the Scriptures the rule of faith Secondly that no man is to condemne any thing held by the Church vnlesse he haue euident proofe on his side out of the Scriptures Thirdly that euery man in matters not determinable by Scripture none of which are necessarie to saluation should yeeld to the iudgement of the Church whereof he is a member and euery Church to the iudgement of the Christian Churches other where vnlesse there be some good reason to the contrary It is very possible for wise vertuous and learned men to erre for your priuiledge of not erring hath bin found to be counterfait who oftentimes follow the opinion of some one man whose learning and pietie they cannot chuse but admire Domingo à Soto affoords vs an example of this matter where hauing alledged a sentence out of Austin he addeth these words By reason of this saying of Austin quoth Soto all the Fathers afterward and the whole multitude of Diuines haue by good right deliuered it as a truth that the glorious Virgin neuer committed any actuall sinne though Chrysostome auncienter then he were of another opinion Let it be then vnlawfull as it is for a priuate man to prefer his owne opinion before the iudgement of a whole Church and in this sense I graunt your minor yet is it not vnlawfull for him to examine what any or all Churches teach or to dissent from it if he haue the Scripture for his warrant A. D. §. 7. But you may perhaps say that in Scripture we are willed not to beleeue euery priuate spirit but to trie spirits whether they be of God or no and that therefore we must examine and trie the spirit of the Church by looking into euery particular point of doctrine which it teacheth I answer that in that place of Scripture it is not meant that it belongeth to euery particular man to trie all spirits but in generall the Scripture giueth the Church warning not to accept euery one that boasteth himselfe to haue the Spirit and willeth that they should trie those spirits not that euery simple or priuate man should take vpon him to trie them but that those of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine to wit the Doctors and Pastors which Almightie God hath put in his Church of purpose Vt non circumferamur omni vento doctrinae that we may not be caried away with euery wind of doctrine and Vt non simus paruuli fluctuantes that we may not be little ones wauering with euerie blast of those that boast themselues to be singularly taught by the spirit So that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no and then also this triall belongeth to the Pastors of the true church But when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither neede nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it but submitting obediently the iudgement of our owne sense
ipsa sede Petri Apostoli cui pascendas oues suas Dominus commendauit vsque ad praesentem Episcopum successio Sacerdotum The succession of Priests from the very seate of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord commended his sheep to be fed vntill this present Bishop doth hold me in the Catholicke Church See the same S. Austin Epist 150. Optatus li. 2. cont Parmen S. Epiphani haeres 275. S. Cyprian lib. 1. epist 6. S. Athanas Orat. 2. cont Arianos who pronounceth them to be hereticks qui aliunde quà m à tota successione Cathedrae Ecclesiasticae originem fidei suae deducunt who deriue the beginning of their faith from any other ground then from the whole succession of Ecclesiasticall chaire And this saith he is eximium admirabile argumentum ad haereticam sectam explorandam an excellent and admirable argument wherby we may espie out and discerne an hereticall sect The which argument these Fathers would neuer haue vrged and extolled so much if they had not thought that this succession was an vndoubted good marke of the Church and that with this lawfull vninterrupted Apostolicall succession of Doctours and Pastors the true Apostolicke faith and doctrine was always conioyned The which to be conioyned we may easily proue out of S. Paul himselfe who saith Dedit Pastores Doctores ad consummationem sanctorum in opus ministerij in aedificationem corporis Christi donec occurramus omnes in vnitatem fidei agnitionis Filij Dei in virum perfectum in mensuram aetatis plenitudinis Christi Signifying that Christ our Sauiour hath appointed these outward functions of Pastors and Doctors in the Church to continue vntill the worlds end for the edification and perfection thereof and especially for this purpose vt non simus paruuli fluctuantes circumferamur omni vento doctrinae that we may not be litle ones wauering and caried about with euery wind of doctrine Wherefore that this ordinance and appointment of Pastors and Doctors in the Church made by our Sauiour Christ may not be frustrate of the effect intended by him we must needs say that he hath decreed so to assist and direct these Pastors in teaching the doctrine of faith that the people their flocke may alwayes by their meanes be preserued from wauering in the auncient faith and from being caried about with euery wind of new doctrine The which cannot be vnlesse with succession of Pastors be alwayes conioyned succession in true doctrine at least in such sort that all the Pastors cannot at any time vniuersally erre or faile to teach the auncient and Apostolicke faith For if they should thus vniuersally erre then all the people who do and ought like sheepe follow the voice of their Pastor should also generally erre and so the whole Church which according to S. Gregorie Nazianzen consisteth of sheepe and pastors should contrary to diuers promises of our Sauiour vniuersally erre So that we may be sure that the ordinary Pastors shal neuer be so forsaken of the promised Spirit of truth that all shall generally erre and teach errors in faith or that there shall not be at all times some sufficient companie of lawfull succeding Pastors adhering to the succession of S. Peter who was by our Sauiour appointed chiefe Pastor of whom we may learne the truth and by whom we may alwayes be confirmed and continued in the true auncient faith and preserued from being caried about with the wind of vpstart error The which being so it followeth that the true Apostolicke doctrine is inseperably conioyned with the succession of lawfull Pastors especially of the Apostolick sea of Rome Wherefore we may against all heretickes of our time as the ancient fathers did against heretickes of their time vrge this argument of succession especially of the Apostolicall succession of the Bishops of Rome We may say to them as S. Augustine saith to the Donatists Numerate sacerdotes ab ipsa sede Petri in illo ordine Patrum quis cui successit videte Number the Priests from the seate it selfe of Peter and in that order or row of Fathers see which succeeded which We may say with Irenaeus Hac ordinatione successione Episcoporum traditio Apostolorum ad nos peruenit est plenissima ostensio vnam eandem fidem esse quae ab Apostolis vsque nunc confirmata est By this orderly succession of Bishops the tradition of the Apostles hath come vnto vs and it is a most full demonstration that the faith which from the Apostles is confirmed euen vntill now is one and the same We may tell them with Tertullian Nos communicamus cum Ecclesijs Apostolicis quod nulla aduersa doctrina facit hoc est testimonium veritatis We do communicate with the Apostolick Churches which no contrary doctrine doth and this is a testimony of the truth A. W. That Apostolicknesse which is a marke of the true Church is as I shewed Chap. 15. an agreement and sucession in doctrine with and to the Apostles not as you would haue it a personall descent from them And therfore your reason against our Churches is naught Euery Apostolicke Church say you can deriue the pedegree of their preachers lineally without interruption from the Apostles The Protestant Churches cannot so deriue their pedegree Therefore the Protestant Churches are not Apostolicke Your maior is euidently false because otherwise some church professing the true faith and not keeping record of the succession of their teachers might be held not to be Apostolicall But Tertullian affirmeth the contrary directly that those Churches which agree with the Apostles in faith though they can alledge no Apostle or Apostolicke man for their first founder yet are neuer the lesse to be counted Apostolicall because of their consent in doctrine And indeed it is both impious and absurd to denie any Church to be Apostolicall that holdeth that faith by the preaching whereof the Apostles planted Churches Your minor also is vntrue because it is wel known that if you haue any such succession amongst you we haue it too For Luther Caluin and some other of our Diuines were ordered by bishops of your church Concerning Luther what reasonable mā can be so absurd as to think that Luther wold make any mā beleeue that the Gospel was first preached by himself whereas he continually appeals for the proof of his doctrine to the writings of the Prophets and the Apostles But Luther might truly say that he was the first which had in those times published Christ especially in the chiefe point of the Gospell which is iustification by faith in Christ And in this respect it is an honor to Luther to haue bin a son without a father and a disciple without a master and no more glory to your Popish Bishops and Priests to haue had so long a succession in error and heresie then for the Arians to haue bene able to reckon vp
must be entire Can you giue me a sufficient reason of this difference A. D. §. 1. This one infallible faith without which we cannot please God must also be entire whole and sound in all points and it is not sufficient to beleeue stedfastly some points misbeleeuing or not beleeuing obstinately other some or any one A. W. There are two things to be considered in your propounding of this questiō concerning the entirenesse of faith in what sense all points must be beleeued and what it is to misbeleeue or obstinately not to beleeue Whatsoeuer is deliuered in Scriptures is a matter of faith because it is the word of God who can neither deceiue nor be deceiued and hath propounded it to men for a truth to be beleeued But yet there is a great difference betwixt things set downe in Scripture and that difference is in 2. respects For neither are all points therein true in the like sense neither is there like necessitie of beleeuing euery particular Concerning the former the generall reason why all things in the Scriptures are true is this because all things therein are recorded deliuered by God for true therfore questionles they are true yet as once before I noted onely so farre forth true as they are intended to be held for true by the holy Ghost the author of the Scripture Whatsoeuer is registred therein by vvay of report as a story is to be taken as true onely in respect of story that we may not doubt whether such or such things were done and said or no. There is no doubt to be made but that the fiue bookes of Moses the bookes of Iosua Iudges Ruth Samuel Kings Chronicles c. containe a true and certaine story of those things whereof they intreate But in these bookes we haue some worthy and holy speeches of godly men some leud and blasphemous words of profane wretches The former are to be acknowledged for the truth of God euery way As for example it is true that Iacob vttered those prophesies of the twelue Patriarks his sonnes and it is also true that those prophesies of his were the very truth of God It is as true that Rabshaketh deliuered those blasphemous threanings against the Lord and his people but it is not true that those words came from God as Iacobs did so Iacobs were to be taken as euery way true Rabshakeths onely as truly reported from his mouth Now that all points are not alike necessary to saluation no man can make any question if he remember that a man may be saued though he haue neuer heard of many things that are recorded in the Scripture which is the case generally of the greatest part both of Protestants and Papists and hath alwayes bene the case of Christians in all ages As for misbeleeuing or not beleeuing obstinately one of these differs a great deale from the other and the latter of the two was needlesse if the former can be proued For if mistaking some point of doctrine be damnable it is out of doubt that obstinate refusing to beleeue the same point must needs make a man much more liable to damnation But indeed misbeleeuing is not in all points so dangerous though of it selfe as a sinne it is subiect to be punished with the eternall wrath of God in hell fire To make plaine that I say A man may misunderstand diuers places of Scripture and thereupon hold that to be true which is false and yet be saued for all this error For example that I may giue instāce in a matter of no small importance How many Christians yea how many great Diuines haue bin deceiued in the vnderstanding of our Sauior Christs genealogie and by their misconceiuing of the Euangelists haue fallen into no smal error that Salomon was the father of the Messiah By which opinion to omit many other things that I may not be too long the truth of a prophesie vttered by Ieremy which makes Ieconiah childlesse hath bin ouerthrown from whom our Sauiour must needs haue descended if he had bene the sonne of Salomon as some erroneously gather out of Saint Mathew and not of Nathan as it is manifest by S. Luke he was Shall I exemplifie this matter in another point The Apostles themselues for a long time euen til after the ascension of our Sauiour into heauen and till the comming of the holy Ghost vpō them looked for the establishing of an earthly kingdome in this world by their Lord and maister Did they not slip into this error by misbeleeuing the prophesies of the old testament concerning the Messiahs kingdome yet were they out of danger of damnation and in the state of grace all that time because they rested on our Sauiour Christ as the spirituall Sauiour of their soules that should tak away their sinnes and bring them to euerlasting life in heauen though they erroneously hoped for a temporall kingdome also The other branch of this distribution which concernes obstinately not beleeuing though it be a farre greater sinne then the former yet it is not such that it doth absolutely cut a man off from saluation This obstinate refusall to beleeue is either of ignorance or of wilfulnesse if a Christian stand stifly in some false opinion which he certainly holdeth to be true in his error the fault of his iudgement may continue without the damnation of his soule If wilfully he refuse to beleeue that truth of God which he discerneth no man can promise him any hope of saluation without true repentance This I speake vpon a supposition that it is possible for a man not to beleeue that which he perceiueth to be true though indeed there is a contradiction implied herein For to beleeue is to assent to the truth which a man cannot chuse but do that sees it that is no man can think the same thing in the same respects true and false But this not beleeuing in such a case is a frowardnesse of the heart not yeelding to acknowledge that he knowes rather then a false opinion in the braine by which a man is misled We are further to obserue that there is a second difference in this point in regard of the matter which is not beleeued If a man in his ignorance deny to beleeue that there is but one God that there are three persons that Iesus is the Messiah that we are redeemed by him that we are iustified by faith without workes or any other fundamentall point of religion he doth thereby shut himselfe out from all possibilitie of saluation as long as he continues in these errors or any of them But other points there are and those many more in number which a man by reason of his ignorance may obstinately refuse to beleeue and yet not be excluded out of heauen for such his error Let the former examples serue for breuities sake I haue bene longer then I would or meant to be but I was desirous to speake plaine
Apostles because they spake immediatly by the direction of the spirit and therefore could not possibly erre in any point whereas all other men are subiect to error and their doctrine to examination ere it need be credited Secondly we must remember it doth not follow that if our Sauiour said whosoeuer beleeued not the Apostles should be damned then he that beleeues not the Ministers now in all they propound to be beleeued should be therefore liable to condemnatiō I haue stood the more vpon this proposition because the consequence being true may breed an error in the conceit of many if the reason of it be not truly vnderstood Your Assumption or minor is thus to be limited according to that which I before deliuered He that beleeues the Apostles spake immediatly by the inspiration of the spirit of God and yet doubts of the truth of some things they preached cannot without reforming this error be saued because he holds that the holy Ghost may inspire an vntruth No more can he that doth not beleeue they spake by such inspiration For of them our Sauiour hath absolutely said He that despiseth you despiseth me The second limitation is about the things themselues The ignorance of some points deliuered by the Apostles vtterly excludes a man out of heauen some other again may be vnknowne and a man notwithstanding that his ignorance be saued Therefore though our Sauiour except no point nor distinguish betwixt matters of doctrine yet the not beleeuing of some is no farther damnable then a man doth wilfully refuse to beleeue that which he confesseth to be truth in his heart or at the least in which he thinkes the Apostles were deceiued or which he despiseth as needlesse and so condemnes the wisedome of God in propounding it to be beleeued A. D. §. 3. And this not without reason for not to beleeue any one point whatsoeuer which God by reuealing it doth testifie to bee true and which by his Church he hath commaunded vs to beleeue must needs be damnable as being a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will But all points of faith are thus testified by God and commaunded to be beleeued otherwise they be not points of faith but of opinion or some other kinde of knowledge Therefore all points of faith must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued beleeued I say eyther expresly and actually as learned men may doe or implicite and virtually as vnlearned Catholicks commonly doe who beleeuing expresly those articles which euerie one is bound particularly to know doe not in the rest obstinately doubt or hold some errour against the Church but haue a minde prepared to submit themselues in all things to the authoritie of the Church which they are sure is taught and directed by the spirit of God and doe in generall hold for vndoubted truth whatsoeuer the Catholicke or vniuersall Church doth beleeue A. W. Now followeth the second proofe of your assumption in this manner Euerie notable iniurie to Gods veritie and disobedience to his will is damnable But misbeleeuing or absolutely not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will Therefore misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is damnable To let passe this craftie conueyance whereby you still shuffle in the Church whereas without it the matter is as true and the proposition as perfect I answer to your assumption that all misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing is not a notable iniurie to Gods truth nor a great disobedience to his will where it proceeds simply of ignorance and not of wilfulnesse except in such cases as I shewed in the end of the last section which I speake not to excuse any man as if he did not sinne in misbeleeuing or as if there were some sinne not deadly according to your erroneous conceit but onely to distinguish notable iniuries and great disobedience from some kinde of misbeleeuing The conclusion is thus to be conceiued That misbeleeuing is in it selfe damnable not that no man can be saued which misbeleeueth This distinction of beleeuing expresly and implicitly as you terme it confirmes part of that which I haue hitherto said for by your confession there are some points to the beleefe whereof a general faith will not serue the turne but a man must know the particulars and assent actually to the truth of them For example it is not enough for a man to beleeue in grosse that he must be saued by such meanes onely as God hath reuealed and the Church hath propounded to be beleeued but it is absolutely necessarie to saluation that he know what the Church holdeth in this case concerning redemption by our Sauiour Christ and in his heart acknowledge the truth thereof Againe there are many other points which so a man neglect not the meanes to know them may be vnknowne and beleeued onely in generall without danger of damnation by reason of such ignorance Now this generall beleefe is not as you falsely say to be folded vp in the faith of the Church but to be tied to the Scripture all things wherein I acknowledge to be most true and beleeue all points whatsoeuer as they are eyther expressed or contained in Scripture howsoeuer I be ignorant what is true touching perhaps very many particulars To the authoritie of the Church I willingly submit my selfe thus farre as that I hold it a sinfull presumption for me or any man eyther to compare my priuate opinion with the generall iudgement of other Christians especially Ministers or to condemne or suspect that of falshood which they deliuer vnlesse I haue apparent proofe for the one and great likelihood for the other In which cases I set not my owne conceit against the doctrine of the Church but preferre the truth of God before the opinions of men As for any infallible authoritie in the Church vpon supposall of such a certaine direction by the spirit of God I hold it neither for true nor probable as shall appeare hereafter In the meane while I desire the Reader to consider these few testimonies cōcerning the authority of men Other writers saith Austin I reade with this prouiso that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I will not thinke a matter true because they haue thought so but because they haue bene able to perswade me eyther by other Canonicall writers or by some likely reason In an other place We may not consent to Bishops though they be Catholicke if at any time they be deceiued so that they iudge contrarie to the Canonicall Scripture of God Of necessitie saith Origen must we call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit And this charge Basil layeth vpon vs that when we heare we examine
expositions cannot be that rule of faith which we seeke for which must on the one side be determinately and plainly vnderstood and on the other side it must be vnfallible certaine and such as cannot erre A. W. That second condition of easinesse to be vnderstood is no propertie necessarily belonging to the rule of faith vnlesse perhaps you imagine that God failes in his prouidence if a man may not come to the knowledge of the truth and euerlasting life without any paines Is it not enough that the rule is such as may be vnderstood of euery one vnlesse a man may know it by dreaming of it Is not the knowledge of the meanes of saluatiō worthy of some care and labour Are the Scriptures obscure and hard that they cannot be vnderstood How then saith the holy Ghost that they giue wisedome vnto the simple and light to the eyes that they are a lanterne to our feet and a light to our paths that the entrance into them sheweth light and giueth vnderstanding to the simple Why doth the Apostle call them a light shining in a darke place And yet all this is spoken of the Scriptures of the old Testament which in comparison of the new are indeed obscure Your Glosse expounds that place Thy word is a lanterne of all the holy Scriptures Your Cardinall Turrecremata seeing the plainnesse and clearnesse of the word of God so directly and expresly commended applieth those places to the new Testament which as he said is bright and cleere which enlightens our darknesse and giues vnderstanding to the humble And who can doubt that the Scriptures are such as may be vnderstood by all men seeing the Lord writ them for the instruction of all men and our Sauiour Christ in the Gospell commendeth the Iewes for searching the Scriptures affirming that in them there is proofe of his nature and office But to what purpose were this search if nothing could be found by it So cleare is this truth that the auncient writers auow it without any doubting Hearken ye that be farre off hearken ye that be neare The word of God is hid from no man it shineth to all men there is no great darknesse in the word The Scriptures saith Irenaeus are plaine and without doubtfulnesse and may be heard alike of all men Giue heed saith Iustin the martyr to those things that I wil rehearse out of the Scriptures which are such as need hearing onely and not any expounding This as the Greek sheweth is to be vnderstood not onely of those places which he was then to deliuer but generally of the Scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That the Scriptures might be knowne to all men great and litle they are profitably commended to vs in a familiar speech so that they are not aboue any mans capacitie Yea there is nothing in them hard saith the same author to them that are conuersant in them as they ought to be though euery sentence be obscure to Iulian and his complices The like hath Epiphanius All things are cleare in the Scriptures to them who will bring to the vnderstanding of the word of God a religious kind of discourse Where that same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which Epiphanius requireth seemeth to be nothing els but a reuerend examining of the Scripture according to the holy Ghosts manner of speaking and reasoning in the Scripture In another place he saith that Al things are cleare plaine in the holy Scriptures So also saith Chrysostom And a litle after he teacheth vs how to restraine those All things All things saith he that are necessary are open and manifest In another place comparing the Apostles with the Philosophers he saith that the Philosophers indeed writ obscurely that they might be had in admiration for their eloquence and learning but the Apostles and Prophets take a contrary course deliuering all things plainly and cleerly to all men as being the common teachers of al the world that euery one by himselfe might be able to learne those things that were taught euen by the onely reading of them He saith yet further that the Scriptures are easie to be vnderstood of seruants of countrey people of widowes of children yea and of him that is very vnskilful I could be large in this matter a few more testimonies shall suffice God saith Austin hath applied the Scriptures to the vnderstanding of infants and sucklings Therefore he iustly reproueth Iulian who as you Papists do now layd out with many words the hardnesse of the Scripture yet is it not to be denied that the Scriptures are hard but as hard as they are enough may be learned out of them euen by the simplest for his saluation There is meate for strong men saith Fulgentius and milke for babes There hath God altogether prouided for the saluation of all whō he vouchsafeth to saue Euery man saith Austin may draw from thence as much as is sufficient for him But is this knowledge to be had with idlenesse and carelesnesse Nothing lesse If you wil perswade your selues saith Chrysostome to bestow paines and diligence in reading surely nothing shal be wanting for your vnderstanding of the Scriptures There are indeed as Austin saith hard places in the Scripture yet no other then are other where in plaine termes expounded There is great obscuritie saith Ambrose in the writings of the Prophets but if thou knocke at the gate of the Scriptures with a certain hand of thy mind and diligently examine those things which are hidden by little and little thou shalt begin to gather the sense of that which is spoker and it shal be opened to thee by no other but by the word of God For it is the order of the Scriptures saith Ierome to hard things to ioyne other that are plaine The circumstance of the Scripture saith Austin doth giue light to the sense of it The fewer saith Tertullian must be vnderstood by the more That rule of Austins must alwayes be remembred that we come with deuout and religious affection to the reading of the Scriptures as true religion requireth And as Chrysostome saith we must seeke namely by prayer if we wil find the sense of the Scripture For as Origen saith vpon the like occasion it is hidden from them that are negligent but opened to them that knock and found of them that seeke The reason why God hath so tempered all things in scripture writing some where plainly some where obscurely is giuen by Austin That it is done by Gods prouident care that by labour he might beate downe our pride and draw away our minds from lothing things easily attained to seem of litle worth Gloriously therefore as he saith and wholsomly hath the holy Ghost so tempered the Scriptures that by plaine and easie places he might prouide for the satisfying of our hunger and by hard and darke
the Church to preach to all nations For your Church is as I haue said your Bb. assembled in Councel not your Clergie men seuerally one by one And it is not our Sauiors meaning to haue such a kind of teaching A. D. §. 6. The warrant we haue in S. Luke Qui vos audit me audit He that heareth you heareth me By which words appeareth plainly that our Sauior Christ would haue vs to heare and giue credit to his church no lesse then to himselfe A. W Our Sauiour by this place hath warranted all men to heare them that teach those things which hee commaunded to be taught besides which if any man teach his owne fancies for matters of faith that of the Apostle belongeth to him Let him be accursed The Apostles were absolutely to be heard without exceptiō as Christ himself all other teachers only so far as they speake according to the word of God He teacheth by this saith Cyril that whatsoeuer the holy Apostles deliuer is to be receiued because he that heareth them heareth Christ Our Sauiour addeth this in the end saith Lyra to shew that the doctrine of his disciples is deuoutly and reuerently to be heard at the least for reuerence of God whose principally that doctrine is But what doth this concerne the church Surely if it may be enforced to make vs heare any besides the Apostles without limiting of our hearing we are bound so to heare at the least euery B. These words saith Bellarmine belong properly to the Apostles and to their successors neither may it be said that this was spoken to all of them ioyntly and not to euery one seuerally Now if it be absurd and worse to hold that we haue warrant to heare euery B. whatsoeuer he teach doubtlesse this place proueth nothing for hearing the Church For by vertue of this speech the Apostles were to be heard without any exception If then it belong to their successors which are as you say Bb. as fully as to them euery B. must be heard and beleeued teach he what he wil. I wil yet say more our Sauior speaketh this of the 72. disciples and of euery two of them at the least Now your opinion is that your ordinary Priests succeed them as Bishops do the Apostles Hence it will follow that whatsoeuer any two Priests preach that must be holden for as certaine a truth as if Christ himselfe had spoken it Do you not see then that this must needs be restrained either to the Apostles or to the doctrine taught He that heareth you preaching that which I haue charged you to preach heareth me So doth your Glosse limit the latter part of the sentence He that despiseth you that is He that will not beleeue in Christ Indeed he that refuseth to beleeue in Christ by the ministerie of men refuseth Christ himselfe whose doctrine it is that we should beleeue in him Therfore your minor is false also in regard of the third part thereof We haue no warrant to heare any man the Apostles being dead but so farre onely as he agreeth with the Scriptures A. D. §. 7. The commandement is expressed in S. Mathew Super Cathedram Moysi sederunt Scribae Pharisaei Omnia ergo quaecunque dixerint vobis seruate facite The Scribes and Pharisies haue sitten vpon the chaire of Moses All things therefore whatsoeuer they shall say vnto you obserue and do Out of which words we may gather that we are bound in all points to do according to the doctrine of the Prelates of the Catholicke Church yea although it should happen that their liues were not laudable but bad For although our Sauiour in this place doth onely in expresse words make mention of the chaire of Moses in which the Priests of the old Law did sit yet he is to be vnderstood to speake also of the chaire of S. Peter his owne Vicegerent in which the Priests of the new law do succeed And this à fortiori because we haue greater reason to thinke that our Sauiour intended in his doctrine to giue rules to the Priests and people of his new law which was presently to begin and to continue till the worlds end then onely to giue documents to those of the old Law considering he knew that it should so shortly cease Wherefore the auncient fathers do vnderstand that place to be meant of the Priests of the new Law and namely S. Augustine who saith thus In illum ordinem Episcoporum qui ducitur ab ipso Petro ad Anastasium qui nunc in eadem Cathedra sedet etiamsi quisquam traditor per illa tempora subrepsisset nihil praeiudicaret Ecclesiae innocentibus Christianis quibus prouidens Dominus ait de praepositis malis quae dicunt facite quae faciunt facere nolite Into that order of Bishops which is deriued from S. Peter himselfe vnto Anastasius who now sitteth vpon the same chaire although some traitor had crept in in those times he should nothing hurt the Church and the innocent Christians for whom our Lord prouiding saith of euill Prelates What they say do what they do do not A. W. This is the only point which is able to make good the consequence of your proposition and therefore if you faile in the proofe of this all is naught But out of doubt you faile here exceedingly and so your reason comes to nothing He that commaunds the Iewes to do whatsoeuer the Scribes and Pharisies who sit vpon Moses chaire say bindeth all to do in all things according to the saying of the Church But our Sauiour so commandeth the Iewes Therefore he bindeth all to do in all things according to the saying of the Church First I say of this syllogisme as of the two last points that if it giue any authoritie to your Church it giueth the same to euery particular teacher For the Scribes and Pharises did expound the law of Moses not in Councels onely but euery one seuerally in the synagogues where they were appointed to teach Therefore if it be absurd to conclude vpon this text that euery Scribe and Pharisey was then and euery Preacher lawfully called is now to be heard whatsoeuer he teach sure no such matter can be wrung out of this place for the Church Secondly this reason maketh the Scribes and Pharises the Church shutting out the high Priest himselfe and all other priests that were not either Scribes or Pharises yea it presumeth which is vtterly false that the Scribes and Pharises were successors to Moses in an ordinarie course of authoritie as you say your Church that is your Pope and Bb. succeed Peter and the rest of the Apostles Can such an argument proue a matter of such importance and doubt Your proposition implieth that our Sauiour intended to giue rules concerning Saint Peters authoritie whom you call his Vicegerent Who wold trifle so in a questiō of such weight First proue his office and your Popes
the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily
time for all men know it erred in diuers though not fundamentall if we may gesse by the writings of the learned in those ages or that the Church hath or shall want the performance of Christs promise at any time for a moment But what is all this to the matter we haue in hand Well Let vs see yet what you say A. D. §. 2. Against these men I set downe this assertion The true Church of Christ which the forenamed testimonies of Scripture do commend was and is to continue without interruption till the worlds end This I prooue First out of the verie words of those promises which I cited out of Saint Matthew and Saint Iohn For how can Christ our Sauiour or his holy Spirit be with his Church in such sort as there is promised to wit till the worlds end and for euer and especially as is said in Saint Matthew Omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi All the daies euen to the end of the world vnlesse the Church also be all the daies vntill the end of the world For if the Church for any time daies monthes or years doe cease to be Christ cannot for these yeares moneths and daies be truly said to be with his Church sith he cannot be with that which is not and consequently he cannot be said to haue fulfilled his promise wherein he said he would be with his Church all the daies vntill the end of the world A. W. The men against whom you set downe this Assertion are of your owne making that you might haue against whom to shew your valour once it cannot concerne vs who acknowledge the continuance of Christs Church without interruption till the worlds end As long as these times shall run on saith Austin the Church of God that is the bodie of Christ shall not be wanting vpon earth This is the Church spoken of in as many of these testimonies as are not peculiar to the Apostles namely the elect from time to time not your Romish synagogue wherein many of the reprobate also are included and that as members of your congregation who cannot without dishonour of our Sauiour Christ be accounted parts of his glorious bodie The truth of your Assertion needeth no proofe and the weaknesse of your proofe is a disgrace to your Assertion Christ will be with his Church at all times whensoeuer there are any that beleeue in him not onely whilest the Apostles liue therefore there shall alwaies be some in the world without interruption that shall beleeue in him This is but a loose consequence I grant the conclusion or consequent that there shall be a Church alwaies but I denie that therefore there shall alwaies be one because our Sauiour promiseth to be with it whensoeuer it is Put case our Sauiour had thus spoken I will be with you in your persecution all the daies euen to the end of the world might a man reasonably conclude from hence that therfore the Church shall be alwaies persecuted without any interruption or ease one day from persecution Such is your consequence and as such insufficient to prooue your Assertion A. D. §. 3. Secondly I prooue the same out of an other promise or prophesie of our Sauiour Christ to his Church wherein he saith Portae inferninon praeualebunt aduersus eam the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it For how was it true that the gates of hel shall not preuaile if they haue preuailed so much as vtterly to abolish the Church or at least to banish it quite out of the world for so long a time Granting therfore which euery Christiā must needs grant that the prophesies promises of our Sauiour are alwaies fulfilled and that they are vnfallibly true we may not doubt but that the church hath euer bene since Christ his time and shal neuer cease to be in the world A. W. This proofe is little or nothing better then the former thus you conclude If Christ haue promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against his Church then it must continue without interruption till the worlds end But Christ hath promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against it Therefore it must continue without interruption till the worlds end I denie the consequence of your maior first because the Church in this place doth not signifie such a companie of men as you by that name vnderstand but the congregation of the elect who by true faith confesse as Peter did and being built vpon our Sauiour the rocke shal neuer be remoued and perish And this promise is made not onely to all ioyntly but to euery one seuerally as it was to Peter and all the rest of the Apostles If there be any saith Origen against whom the gates of hell shall preuaile such a one is neither the rocke vpon which Christ buildeth nor the Church which is built by Christ vpon the rocke Euerie one saith the same Origen that is a follower of Christ by imitation is a rocke or stone But he against whom the gates of hell preuaile is neither to be counted a rocke nor the Church nor part of the Church which Christ builds vpon the rocke Againe whosoeuer is Christs disciple saith the same author is a rocke but many are called and few chosen As if he should haue said that the Church against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile is euery one of the elect and that he against whom those gates do preuaile is none of the elect or church to which that promise of our Sauiour was made Theophylact though he expound the place of the Church somewhat generally yet hee doubteth not to adde that euery one of vs also is the church which is the house of God if therefore we be confirmed in the confession of Christ the gates of hell that is sinnes shall not preuaile against vs. The gates of hell saith your Glosse are sinnes threatnings flatterings heresies whereby they that are weake runne into destruction who are not to be thought to haue built the house of their profession of beleeuing soundly vpon the rocke but vpon the sand that is to follow Christ with a simple and true intent but to haue made a shew for some earthly respect For he that receiueth the faith of Christ with the inward loue of his heart easily ouercometh whatsoeuer outwardly befalleth him Lyra saith that the church here spoken of consisteth of those persons in whō there is true knowledge confessiō of the faith truth not of any men in respect of their power or dignity ecclesiasticall or ciuill because many Princes Popes and other inferiour Christians are found to haue made Apostasie from the faith Luke of Bruges though he will not haue this promise of victorie belong to euery particular member of the church yet he granteth that euery liuing member thereof stedfastly cleauing vnto it may conceiue good hope of triumphing
is vnpossible because God doth not reueale this point to men neither are they able to iudge who are truly iustified and sanctified and who are not Secondly the question is whether the catholicke Church spokē off in the Creed can be discerned by the same bodily sight or no we say it cannot because it containeth none but the elect you say it can because it consisteth of all them that make profession of christian Religion vnder the absolute gouernment of the Pope of Rome The onely true meanes to make a full end of this controuersie is to shew what the Church is of which the Creed the Scriptures speak so many and so glorious matters This point you haue not once touched but either ignorantly or craftily concealed that difference betwixt vs and alledge that for the definition of the Church which if it were true as it is euidently false yet is but one priuiledge of the Church and expresseth not the nature of it But let vs leaue these matters and consider what it is that according to your former discourse you are to prooue Now that is say I that there alwaies hath bene since our Sauiours comming is and shall be to the end of the world a companie of men famous and visible in the world so that all men at all times may discerne that they are the true Church of Iesus Christ. For that I may in part vse your owne words as they follow in this chapter if at any time it could not be knowen then the men that liued in that time wanted necessarie meanes whereby they might attaine to the knowledge of true faith and consequently whereby they might come to saluation Giue me leaue to apply that to all men which you speake of all times If there euer were are or shall be any men to whose sight the Church was not so visible that they might discerne and know it then those men wanted necessary means whereby they might attaine to saluation which if it were so say you how is it vniuersally true which is vniuersally said in Scripture God would haue all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the truth Do you not perceiue that your reason necessarily requireth to haue it prooued that the Church is visible as at all times so to all men For if it faile in either of these respects your consequence will follow that some men haue wanted necessarie meanes of saluation and so God would not haue all men saued Therefore you propound the question verie insufficiently when you say We inquire whether the Church at any time be inuisible so that no man can see those men c. For though at all times some men may see and know it yet vnlesse all men at all times may you haue prooued nothing to purpose in this whole Treatise A. D. §. 2. In which matter my Assertion is that the Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore cited do speake must alwaies be visible This I prooue first by that plaine Prophesie of Isaias in the 61. Chapter Which Chapter to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church we may gather out of Saint Luke where our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter and expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe The words of the Prophesie are these Foedus perpetuum feriam eis scietur in gentibus semen eorum Omnes qui viderint eos cognoscentillos quoniam isti sunt semen cui benedixit Dominus I will make a perpetuall couenant or league with them and their seede shall be knowen among Nations all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seede which our Lord hath blessed How could he more plainely haue foretolde the visiblenesse of the Church The places of Scripture afore cited speake not all alike some of them concerne the Apostles onely and that not onely as they are a companie but as they are seuerall teachers authorised by our Sauiour Christ with so high and absolute a commission some belong to all true christians as well seuerally considered one by one as taken iointly all together Some appertaine to all Ministers some reach to all professors of the truth of the gospell How then can you truly say that the true Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore recited doe speake must alwaies be visible The Apostles haue not bene visible these 1500 yeares The elect that is the Church built vpon a rocke neuer was nor euer shall be visible in this world All Ministers were not nor can be visible to all men All professors neither are the true Church of Christ nor can by any meanes possible be seene of all mē as one church but with the eies of the mind Particulars are subiect to sense but vniuersals are discerned onely by vnderstanding Your assertion then is false but we will take it as it is set downe by you supposing that those places of Scripture speake of the Church in generall Yet we may not forget that the second point must needs be added concerning all men and so your assertion must be this The true Church of Christ must alwaies be visible to all men liuing To make way to your argument out of this prophesie you go about to prooue that the Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ his Church your proofe lieth thus Our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe Therefore that Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church This consequent doth not follow vpon that Antecedent First because the whole chapter may be written of our Sauiour himselfe and yet not of his Church also Secondly because some part of it may be of our Sauiour and yet not those words you alledge For who is he that knoweth not that one and the same Chapter often times conteineth diuers prophesies belonging to diuers matters and parties But though your proofe be naught your opinion is true For those words that whole chapter concerne our Sauiour and his Church Let vs see how you reason If our Sauiour promise to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church and that their seede shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed then the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing But our Sauiour hath promised to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church that their seed shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed Therefore the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing I denie the consequence of your Maior Though our Sauiuiour made such a promise and indeed hath and doth daily performe it yet it doth not follow thereupon that the Church must alwaies be visible to all men Shall the promise
Christ vpon earth whereof hereafter when I come to speake of the Catholicke Church I denie the consequence of your proposition For it is possible that al the Churches in the world should gloriously professe the true faith and yet many thousands be vtterly ignorant that there are any such Churches Was not your Church of Rome which hath bene famous enough for outward state altogether vnknowne at the least a long time in the Indies and America till within these 100. yeares or thereabouts And yet do you aske If it did outwardly professe how it should not by this profession be made visible and knowne Hath not the kingdome of China if we beleeue the report of your Iesuites and other Friers bene a mightie and rich estate many hundred yeares and yet not heard of till of late in most parts of Christendome If you reply that the Churches must needs be knowne to them amongst or neare whom they are I answer that this proueth not their visibilitie to all men at all times no nor to them in the midst of whom they dwell vnlesse the Churches be setled in some outward peace that the members thereof may freely shew themselues Your minor is false it may come to passe that the Church may cease for a space to make open profession of that faith which in hart it doth beleeue else how could Eliah liuing in the kingdom of Israel haue bene ignorant that there were 7000. true worshippers of God in that countrey Your proofe is insufficient If it might come to passe say you that the Church should cease to professe outwardly then should the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But the gates of hell shal not mightily preuaile against it contrary to his promise Therefore it may not come to passe that the Church should cease so to professe The consequence of your maior is too weake Our Sauiours promise is neither to the whole Church considered as a companie ioyntly together but to euery true beleeuer as I shewed before nor concerning outward profession against which Peter the head of the Church as you dreame grieuously sinned but of continuing ioyned to Iesus Christ as the head by a true iustifying faith resting on him for saluation In which estate Peter alwayes was preserued by our Sauiour though the diuel preuailed against him to the deniall of his Lord and Master for feate of death But let vs see your proofe If outward profession be a thing necessary to saluation then if the church faile in that the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But outward profession is a thing necessary to saluation Therfore if the Church faile in outward profession the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise I denie your minor Such outward profession as you meane is not necessary to saluation For the better clearing whereof we must a little examine what it is for a thing to be necessary to saluation then what profession may be counted necessary For the former that is necessary to the saluation of a man without which he cannot possibly be saued Now these things are either simply necessarie so that the absence of them shuts a man out of heauen or necessarie onely in some sort Simply necessarie on mans part for in that sense we speake now of things necessarie are acknowledgement of sinne faith in Iesus Christ and repentance wheresoeuer any of these is wanting there is no possibilitie of saluation so long as they are wanting Other things there are onely so far necessarie as that the contempt or neglect of them baâ—s a man of saluation Such are the Sacraments and outward profession both in generall by becoming a member of some true visible Church and in particular by witnessing the truth as oft as the Lord shall minister iust occasion Concerning this latter kinde of things necessarie we are to know that if we truly repent our contempt and neglect of these duties and beleeue in Iesus Christ there is mercie for vs with God though for want of oportunitie we can neuer come to the performance of them Touching the latter point of outward profession it is as I signified ere while of two sorts either a ioyning of our selues to some Church professing true Religion or a bearing witnesse of the truth of God which we professe To this latter especially belong the two former places of Scripture alledged by you To the former that text which you set in the last place as it shal appeare by and by You will aske me perchance whether of these two is the profession you speake of Surely to speake plainly and properly neither of them For it is a conceit of your owne deuising without any authoritie or warrant of Scripture and namely of those places you bring for proofe of it yet may it in some sort be referred to the latter as being a meanes whereby we may auouch the truth of God whereof we are professors So then the answer is first that no kinde of outward profession is simply necessary to saluation as if the absence of it were in it selfe damnable though the contempt or neglect of the dutie not repented of brings certaine damnation Secondly that it is not necessary to saluation either simply or in any sort that a whole Church should at all times make open profession to the world of that Religion which they hold and secretly practise This is that outward profession which is meant in your minor by which conceit you shut out of heauen all Churches that is all assemblies of the faithfull which at any time haue for borne to cast themselues wilfully into the mouthes of the bloud-thirstie and rauening persecutors by proclaiming openly their faith in Christ It is too true that an ouer-great zeale of martyrdome caried some men now and then farther then they should haue gone to the endangering and losing of their liues But it is as true that our Sauiour his Apostles and the Churches from time to time haue beene carefull to hide themselues from the sight of Tyrants when the Gospell was persecuted as farre as their callings and other occasions would giue them leaue Indeede they they neuer would neither is it lawfull denie the truth of God or themselues to be professors of it if they were called in question for it yet did they conceale as much as they could from the persecutors their times and places of meeting and also the seuerall members of their Churches To denie Christ or the truth of his religion is alwaies damnable and without repentance bringeth damnation vnauoideably not to make publicke profession of religion is not alwaies so but then onely when the Lord by some speciall occasion according to the generall dutie of a Christian or a mans particular calling thrusteth or draweth him foorth to giue testimonie to the truth by maintaining it or suffering for it Which your selfe also afterward acknowledge by
the iudgement of the learned who teach that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie to saluation Now for answer to your proofes I say as before that the two former concerne especially the denying either of religion in generall or some speciall truth in question when the Lord as it were calleth vs out to professe and auouch it as he did the Apostles in that place by sending them abroad to preach the Gospell If you saith our Sauiour in effect or any other minister shall forbeare to discharge your duties by preaching my truth and maintaining it if you be called in question for it I will neuer acknowledge you for mine in the kingdome of heauen The Apostles calling necessarily required preaching of the word and for them to haue failed in that dutie for feare or shame or otherwise had bene to denie their Lord and master Yet were they not so tied to this dutie that they must needs continue their publicke preaching in those places where persecution was raised against them but they might flee from one Citie to another and yet not be counted to denie the Lord Iesus As for the Churches that were gathered by the Apostles preaching there is neither charge nor reason to be shewed why they should bewray themselues to their persecutors by open practise of religion in the eies of the world Indeed the worship of God is not to be neglected though we cannot performe it without manifest daunger of our liues but there is no necessitie to worship God publickly where the truth is persecuted Therefore did the anciēt Christiās in such places assemble as secretly as they could neither leauing the exercises of religion for feare nor by an incōsiderate zeal hazarding their own liues To denie Christ is not to conceale himselfe frō persecutors but being found by them to renounce his profession and so is the place ordinarily applied by Cyprian the Clergie of Rome and Tertullian men enough fauouring martyrdome Yea Tertullian in that verie booke wherein he labours to prooue that it is not lawfull for a man to flie in time of persecution yet aduiseth men to hold their assemblies for the exercises of religion in the night time if they cannot haue them conueniently in the day Theophylact expoundeth this confession and deniall of acknowledging or denying Christ to be God Brugensis somewhat more particularly He that denieth me to be his Lord and Sauiour that he beleeueth in me that he sticketh fast to me and my doctrine So doth Iansenius vnderstandit though he stretch it also to the denying of Christ by wicked conuersation The denying of Christs name saith Lyra is alwaies a mortall sinne Not to confesse or be silent concerning it is sometimes a mortall sinne As if a man be silent when he is asked of it If he professe it being not asked it is a worke of supererogation Doth any of these or any man else conclude the visibilitie of the Church from these or the like places of Scripture No man is to denie our Sauiour nor to be ashamed of his truth What then Therefore must they that beleeue in Christ openly make profession thereof at all times without any wisedome of the Serpent for their owne preseruation or else can they not be saued A cruell and foolish conceit This proofe is to as little purpose as the former Confession by mouth is required to saluation therefore outward profession of faith is at all times necessarie Who sees not the weaknesse of this cōsequence Doth not he confesse with mouth that ioynes himselfe to some knowen Church of Christ and communicates with them ordinarily in the outward worship of God though all the world know not there are any such beleeuers professors yea though the people among whom they liue be not priuie to their meetings and profession There may be occasion for a man or a Church to manifest themselues vnto the world and they that in such a time shall faile can looke for no mercie at the hands of God without true and earnest repentance But this prooues not that therefore the Churches must make such publicke profession that they may at all times be knowen to all men To perswade vs of the former wherein there is no doubt you tell vs that Learned men autors in the aire as one of your side saith in the like case interprete this place to signifie that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie Who euer denied it But doth any learned man say that therefore the Church must alwaies make such profession That is the point in question and of that you are as dumbe as a fish yea do you not perceiue that your learned men refute that conceit Doth not he that expoundeth that place of necessitie at sometimes denie that it requireth such necessitie at all times It is necessarie saith Frier Soto for a righteous man that he may obtaine euerlasting life to confesse his faith with his mouth wheresoeuer the time necessarily required by this precept offers it selfe Catharin your Bishop speaketh yet more plaine Such confession namely that a man confesse with his mouth that which he beleeueth in his heart as he expounded himselfe a little before is not alwaies required but as Thomas saith according to the time and place And indeed so Thomas saith adding withall that Affirmatiue commaundements binde at all times but require not performance at all times Your interlinear and ordinarie Glosses and Lombard restraine it to the time of persecution or at least when the truth is called in question Caietan makes this when more generall but signifieth that this confession is not at all times necessarie As for the times when it is to be held for necessarie your learned men do somewhat more particularly deliuer the point then you report it Confession of Gods truth quoth Sotus and therein he followth Thomas is necessarie vpon paine of losing saluation either when it is required by a persecutor of the faith which confession the martyrs made with their bloud or when it is necessarie for those that belong to our charge by danger of heresie likely to ensue which dutie of confession properly concerneth Prelates c. These occasions haue many times bene offered and accordingly many professors of that truth which wee now maintaine haue with the shedding of their bloud giuen testimonie of the Gospell against the errours and tyrannie of your Antichristian Prelates Those holy martyrs who from time to time haue bene butchered by your Synagogue of Sathan were of the same Church with vs howsoeuer they saw not the truth of God in many points so clearely as it hath pleased him to reueale it to vs by the ministerie of his seruants in these latter dayes If they vsed their best discretion and endeuours to hide themselues as much as might be from your furie they did no more then the light of nature and
you make In particular I denie your Minor The Church we speake of is not compared to any such things The Church saith Austin which groweth in all natiōs is preserued in the lords wheat and shall be so preserued to the end till it haue taken possession of all yea euen the most barbarous nations The floare in Austins iudgement is not the Church but the place rather in which the Church is kept for that as he truly saith is the wheat And in the same Epistle he speaketh yet more plaine of an other of your parables That is the Church saith Austin which swimmeth in the Lords net with naughtie fishes from which in heart and behauiour it alwaies is separated Could any thing be spoken more direct The floare and the net are in a generall sense the Church but the true Church indeed is in the one the wheat not the chaffe in the other the good fishes that swimme among the naughtie ones I may also farther except against these Parables because they are otherwise applied then they are intended by our Sauiour who neuer meant by any one of them to teach that the Church consisteth not of the elect onely Who saith Austin can without great impudencie go about to prooue anything for his purpose by interpretation of any Allegorie vnlesse he haue manifest testimonies whereby those matters that are obscure in it be cleared This is your last charge to as small purpose as either of the former If there may be an incestuous person say you in the Church then it consisteth not onely of those that be good But there may be an incestuous person in the Church Therefore the Church consisteth not onely of those that be good It is apparent that by good you vnderstand those that cannot be charged with any grosse outward sinne as Incest or such like In which sense I say your conclusion is nothing to the purpose For we do not affirme that no man is of the Church which by any occasion falleth into some grieuous sinne so should we exclude Peter when he denied his master Dauid when he committed adulterie and murther Noe when he was drunke Abraham when he lied and many other who for all these sinnes held fast their faith in the Messiah and continued true members of Iesus Christ according to Gods election howsoeuer those sinnes of theirs deserued separation from Christ and damnation The Church may consist of some who for the present are in regard of some great sin not good and yet consist of the elect only as the former examples shew Farther I denie the consequence of your Maior It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church that is to be an outward professor and to be a true beleeuer And that the Church is the companie of the elect in the iudgement of the ancient writers these testimonies shew Ambrose maketh the Church the people whom God hath vouchsafed to adopt Whereas the Church saith Austin is so described in the Canticles that it is called a fenced garden my sister spouse a fountaine sealed vp a well of liuing water a paradise with fruite I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous The holy Church quoth Gregory is a garden because when it begets many to the faith it sends forth faire flowers like a good ground And it is well called a fenced garden because it is fortified round about with the trench of charitie that no reprobate may come into the number of the elect If the spouse of Christ which is the Church be a fenced garden saith Cyprian being shut vp it cannot lie open to the prophane and strangers But what should I recite seuerall testimonies Looke Origen Bernard and other writers vpon the Canticles and you shall easily see that the spouse of Christ is the companie of the elect A. D. §. 8. Lastly the ancient Fathers did teach that the Church is visible Origen saith Ecclesia plena est fulgore ab oriente vsque ad occidentem The Church is full of brightnesse from the East to the West Ecclesia saith S. Cyprian Domini luce persusa radios suos per orbem spargit The Church being bright with the light of our Lord doth spread her beames throughout the world Facilius est saith S. Chrysostome solem extingui quà m Ecclesiam obscurari It is more easie that the Sunne should be extinguished then that the Church should be obscured that is to say darkened and quite without light Saint Augustine also alluding to or rather expounding those words of our Sauiour Non potest ciuitas abscondi supra montem posita saith Ecclesia supra montem constituta abscondi non potest The Church being built vpon a mountaine cannot be hid And againe in another place he saith Quid amplius dicturus sum quà m caecos qui tam magnum montem non vident qui contra lucernam in candelabro positam oculos claudunt What shall I say more but that they are blind who do not see so great a mountaine who shut their eyes at the candle set vpon the candlesticke A. W. These and such like speeches of the Fathers were vttered by them for the most part concerning the Church as it flourished in their dayes and not of the perpetuall estate therof from time to time Neither speake they properly of the Church which is indeed the spouse of our Sauiour the bridegroome but of the multitude of them who hold the truth of doctrine against all cauils and oppositions of hereticks amongst whom only the Church of the elect ordinarily was preserued Your reason then is little worth The Fathers say the Church is visible Therefore it is alwayes visible to all men The consequēce of your Enthymem is naught as wel because it might be visible in those times and not always as also for that it is not all one to say it is visible and it is visible to all men at all times Now to the particulars First I answer to Origens testimonie that he speakes not of the Churches visibilitie but affirmes that the truth which is the brightnesse or light he mentions is in the Churches euery where East and West That this is his meaning it is plaine by the beginning of that homily and the whole course of it to the very place you alledge Origen expounds there that place of the Gospell As the lightning cometh out of the East This exposition begins thus We must know saith Origen that the brightnesse of the truth doth not appeare in one place of Scripture and cannot be defended by another but that it may be maintained out of all parts of Scripture the Law the Prophets the Gospels and the Apostles writings And this truth arising from the East that is the beginnings of Christ shineth to the very time of his passion in which was his setting or fall A little after We
the world A man may finde in the Scriptures that the true Church of Christ shal neuer faile but which outward companie of men is this true Church no man by this marke of future continuance can by any meanes discerne Wherupon I conclude that your Catholicknesse is neither for the name nor for the thing any good marke of any true Church whatsoeuer That by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time should be signified you presume but proue not and yet I am perswaded you are not able to alledge any one ancient author but late Papists that by the Catholicke Church vnderstands a companie that hath bin alwayes since the beginning of the Christian Church and shall alwayes continue till the second comming of our Sauiour Christ I doubt not that the true Church spoken of in the Scripture and the creed hath so bin and shall be but I say that no man conceiues this propertie to be signified by the word Catholicke The ground of my opinion is that hauing found diuers reasons alledged by the Fathers why the Church is said to be Catholicke I could neuer light vpon that concerning the time Austin ordinarily restraines Catholicknes to place as also Optatus doth Pacianus where he purposely enquires the reason of the name neuer once mentions it no more doth Cyril who yet assignes sixe seuerall respects in which the Church may be said to be Catholicke And surely if by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time be signified I see no reason neither I thinke can you shew me any why it should not as well include the time before our Sauiours comming and so the Church of God that then was as that which hath bin since his comming and shall continue till the end of the world So doth Thomas vnderstand the Catholicknesse of the Church stretching it from Abels time to the end of the world But your great maister Bellarmine vtterly denies that the Church before our Sauiours comming was Catholicke restraining this Catholicknesse to the Church of the Christians But because I acknowledge the truth of the doctrine I will not striue about the word though you should haue prooued the sense of the word and not haue giuen too much credit to Bellarmine who brings a place of Austin to prooue that vniuersalitie of time is required to make the Church Catholicke whereas there is not a syllable or a letter touching that matter in the place alledged No more is there in that other place of Bede which also he brings but rather we may proue thence that Catholicke belongeth to place It is therefore called Catholicke saith Bede because it is edified in one and the same faith ouer all parts of the world In the sentence next before he speaketh thus Whence the Church is called Catholicke hee teacheth saying All the Churches through all Iewry Galilee and Samaria had peace So doth your Canon expound Catholicke so Durand though he adde also two other reasons of the name but not that you bring As for the place you quote to prooue a needlesse question what doth it concerne the visible Church being spoken as Ierome sheweth at large and prooueth out of the Apostle of the Church of the elect Iewes or at the most of the elect in generall Before I examine that which you haue here deliuered touching the Catholicknes of the Church in respect of place I hold it very needfull to consider what was intended by the name Catholicke and how it hath bin vnderstood of auncient writers And because this latter point may be a meanes to giue vs some light for the discerning of the former I will begin with it in the first place Whether the word were in vse in the time of the Apostles or no so that any man was called a Catholicke Pacianus seems to stand in some doubt yet he lets it passe as granted that no man was then so called Once it is out of all doubt that it is no where in the Scriptures applied to any church or to any man or at all vsed As for the title Catholicke giuen to the Epistles of Iames Peter the first of Iohn and Iude it came not from the holy Ghost the inditer of those Epistles but was added afterwards by some man when the bookes of the new Testament were gathered together into one volume which may better appeare by the titles of the other Epistles also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. of Saint or holy Paul which inscription questionlesse neuer was of the Apostles owne setting downe That which I would haue obserued is that this name Catholicke was deuised and applied to the Church not by God in the Scriptures but by man and therefore it is of lesse importance and more vncertaintie yet no doubt not giuen at aduenture but vpon good ground and to good purpose For the original of it it is Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through the whole or all which we commonly call by two Latin names vniuersall or generall so that the Catholicke Church and the generall or vniuersall Church are all one To auow the antiquitie of this title giuen to the church the confession of faith which is commonly called the Apostles creede may be alledged wherin we professe that we beleeue the holy Catholick Church That this creed is very ancient it is out of question but that it was penned or indited by the Apostles themselues we haue no certaine proofe But to leaue this point and to returne again to the meaning of the words Catholick Church the auncientest authors in whom I finde them for they are not in Dionysius Ignatius Martialis Polycarpus nor in Iustine Irenaeus Tertullian Origen or any man within the first 200. years are Clemens Alexandr about the yeare 200. and Cyprian about the yeare 250. After them it grew very common especially in the Latin Church Cyprian himselfe hath not that I know of any where deliuered the reason of that title Catholick But Pacianus Bishop of Barcelona in Spaine purposely disputeth the question against Symproniā a Nouatian heretick assigning two reasons of the name in this sort If saith he I must giue a reason of the word Catholicke and expresse the Greeke in Latine Catholicke is euery where one or as the learneder thinke obedience to all Gods commmandements so that by his interpretation the Catholicke Church must be the company of them who in all places here and there professe one faith and liue in obedience to all the commandements of God This vnitie of true faith the Emperors respected Valentinian Gratian and Theodosius when they commanded that all they should be called Catholicks who follow the faith that S. Peter deliuered to the Church of Rome To this purpose is that of Cyril where he saith The Church is called Catholicke because it teacheth all things necessary to be knowne This interpretation of the word and reason of the title the Donatists gaue saying that the
which we pleade not guiltie and looke to heare what euidence commeth against vs to proue the enditement But you rather like the foreman of the grand enquest then the plaintiffe that endites vs instead of prouing come in with I find that the Protestants Church is not perfectly one This will not serue the turne we must know how you finde it or at least be assured that you haue found it Who would not laugh at such an euidence But though you leaue the two former points to the credulousnesse of your Popish followers yet you attempt the proofe of the last by this Syllogisme They that admit no rule of faith but onely Scriptures and allow no infallible interpreter thereof to whose iudgement they will stand haue no meanes to end their controuersies and returne to vnitie But the Protestant Churches admit no rule of faith but onely Scriptures and allow no infallible interpreter thereof to whose iudgement they will stand Therefore the Protestant Churches haue no meanes to end their controuersies and returne to vnitie I denie your maior for the Scripture alone containes all truth necessarie to be beleeued and that so plainly that without any such soueraigne iudgement of any man it is possible for a reasonable man to discerne truth from falshood But if any man will be contentious we haue the sword of the magistrate and the censure of excommunication to bring him into order or to cut him off if he be incurable that the vnitie of our Churches be not dissolued either by heresic or schisme But to confirme your proposition you alledge Ieromes authoritie that there must be a head or chiefe ruler that occasion of schisme may be taken away The danger of schisme that Ierome speakes of in his first booke against Iouinian not as your Printer quotes it in the second was not in respect of doctrine but of outward peace Neither was this course held from the beginning as Ierome saith but in discretion appointed vpon occasion Before that by the malice of the diuell saith Ierome the Church was deuided into factions and one man held of Paul another of Apollo another of Cephas Churches were gouerned by common consent of the Presbyters but after that euery man began to thinke that those which hee had baptized were his and not Christs it was decreed ouer all the world that one chosen from among the Presbyters should be set ouer the rest to whom the whole care of the Church should appertaine and that the seeds of schismes might be taken away Out of which sentence of Ierome we may obserue these points First that this meanes of procuring vnitie belongeth not necessarily to the nature of the Church for then it must needs haue bene as auncient as the Church But Ierome telleth vs that there was a time when the Church was without it and that in her best estate while the Apostles liued By little and little saith Ierome afterward that the plants of dissention might be plucked vp the whole care was layed vpon one Secondly whereas in the place alledged by you Ierome acknowledgeth such a superioritie in Peter aboue the other Apostles in respect of age for which as he saith he was preferred before Iohn yet there is more heede to be taken to his iudgement in this place where he disputes the question without all passion then to that which hee speakes in the heate of disputation against Iouinian But what neede we any better proofe of this point then Saint Paul affoords vs He blameth the Corinthians because some held of Paul some of Apollos some of Cephas Cephas or Peter is the last why not the first rather if he were as you say the head Or why should the Corinthians be reproued for cleauing to him especially if he were appointed to be the chiefe It might be a fault to depend on Paule or on Apollos who were in your iudgement vnderlings but it was a great vertue to hang vpon Cephas the head How forgetfull was the Apostle Paul both of his dutie to Peter his head and of so readie a meanes to end that schisme that would not tell them that Peter was appointed head to the end all occasion of schisme might be taken away Thirdly we are not so to vnderstand Ierome as if he had said that there was one head appointed ouer the whole world but that in all places where there were multitudes of Presbyters order was taken that some one chosen from among the rest should be chiefe and principall in that Diocesse as I may speake and ouer all them which were in some sort accounted to be but one bodie This agreeth with the practise of those times and with that of Cyprian Here of spring heresies and schismes arise that the Priest of the Lord is not obeyed Which Cyprian speakes of euery seuerall Bishop in his Diocesse Whereunto also belongs that of Ierome There be seuerall Bishops of Churches seuerall Archbishops and seuerall Archdeacons and all the Ecclesiasticall order is stayed by the gouernours Whereby saith the Glosse Ierome proueth that there may not be two or more Bishops in one Church but that there must be a seuerall Bishop in euery seuerall Church To which purpose I may farther alledge another place of Ierome Vnlesse saith Ierome the Bishop haue a speciall power aboue other there will be as many schismes in the Church as there be Priests This course then of authorizing some one of the Presbyters aboue the rest was for the preseruing of order and keeping out of schisme not for the determining of controuersies in Religion as if all must haue stood to one mans iudgement in questions of Diuinitie which either may be ended by the authoritie of the Scriptures if they be necessary to be determined or if they be not may be forbidden to be proceeded in without any danger to the Churches libertie So that the Protestant Churches fully agree in matters of substance and want not meanes to settle peace in questions of lesse importance or if they did might easily haue as good meanes as your Church by appointing a Pope ouer themselues as in policie you haue done But as yet they finde no such need especially where the remedie is worse then the disease as it must needs be in so lawlesse a tyrannie Is it not more for the glory of God good of the Church as I haue said otherwhere that there should be continuall disagreement in some matters of Religion then that all should beleeue maintain false doctrine Were not our Sauiour Christ better haue a troubled church thē none at all Honorable war is to be preferred before dishonorable peace in the iudgement of any wise states-man And can it be more glorious to God to haue outward quietnesse in the Church with heresy yea with Antichristianisme then truth with contention True Christian vnitie consists principally in truth of religion without which the greatest agreement is but a conspiracy against God
who was as able and as carefull to speake so that all whom it concerned might vnderstand him as the holiest of your Councels or Popes I can hardly perswade my selfe that any man of learning let him be neuer so Catholicke as you tearme him can beleeue that the Pope alone or the Pope and a Councell cannot erre But it is an opinion deuised and retained in politicke discretion to keepe things in an outward quietnesse to aduance the estate of your Cleargie I may not enter into the discussing of this priuiledge you claime for it would aske much time and a long discourse but I wil touch it as farre as you giue me necessarie occasion and so proceed to that which followeth And first concerning the Popes owne person which seemeth to be your best plea being alledged in the first place and almost wholly stood vpon you cannot be so ignorant as not to know that diuers learned men on your side confesse and maintaine that the Pope may erre Many Popes saith Lyra haue bene found to haue bene Apostataes from the faith The Pope saith Catharin may erre and fall vtterly from the faith And although in his second conclusion he tels vs that the Pope as Pope that is sitting you call it ex Cathedra out of his chaire and lawfully according to the rite of vsing the key of knowledge particularly committed to him determining a matter of faith cannot erre so that he shall define any thing against faith yet he addeth afterward that the Pope may decree by way of a commaundement or Law some false or vniust thing so that saith he there are many decrees of Popes found to be diuers and contrarie one to another And can euerie learned man thinke you iudge which decrees the Pope made as Pope and which as a man What idle and vncertaine fooleries are these distinctions I do not beleeue saith Alfousus that the Pope hath any flatterer so impudent to grant him this prerogatiue that he can neuer erre nor be deceiued in expounding Scripture I haue learned of the schoole Doctors saith a late Archbishop of yours that any Pope may erre as a Doctor or as a man but not as a Iudge And this he speaketh of a decree of Pope Eugenius the fourth which many Diuines as himselfe confesseth take to be a decree of the Councell of Florence Yet Bishop Catharin boldly affirmeth that there are many things in the said decree which if they be strictly taken and according to the proper meaning of the words wil be found to be false and therefore as he saith need a fauourable interpretation Yea the same Archbishop is not afraid to refute as he pretendeth by the authoritie of the Councell of Trent the iudgement and determination of three Popes Eugenius the fourth Clemens the eight and Pius the fift the two last hauing set out their Missals since the Councell of Trent and yet as he thinketh resoluing concerning the words of consecration contrarie to the iudgement of the Councell It may appeare also by his Epistle dedicatorie that a fourth Pope Sixtus the fift to whom he writeth that Treatise was of the same opinion in that matter with those his predeceslors from whom the Archbishop maketh bold to dissent as he doth from Thomas of Aquine and all his followers But what name I priuate men although excellently learned Let vs heare a whole generall Councell speake We condemne and depose saith the Councell of Basil Pope Eugenius a despiser of the holy Canons a disturber of the peace and vnitie of the Church of God a man notoriously scandalous to the vniuersall Church a Symoniack a for sworne man incorrigible aschismaticke fallen from the faith and an obstinate heretick And for the auowing of this their act they speake thus in another place We haue heard and read that many Popes haue fallen into error and heresie it is certaine that the Pope may erre The Councell hath often condemned and deposed the Pope both for his heresie in faith and his leudnesse in life I might adde hereunto the authoritie of the Councel of Constance which bindes the Pope to be obedient to the decrees of Councels But that which I haue said may suffice to shew that all learned Papists do not know the Pope cannot erre But you vndertake to proue they do know it because of certaine places of Scripture wherein our Sauiour makes a promise of not erring to Peter and his successors To all which I answer in generall that those learned men and Councels before alledged did know that these places were brought to proue the Popes priuiledge of not erring and notwithstanding held it for an vndoubted truth that he might erre you may beare with vs then though we make question of it In particular I answer to the places alledged concerning Saint Peters priuiledge The keyes signifie nothing but power to open and shut heauen to bind and loose by retaining or remitting the sins of men The plaine sense of those words saith Bellarmine is this that first the authoritie is promised or the power noted out by the keyes then the actions and office are expounded by those words to bind and loose And in the verse before he finds fault with Caietan for endeuouring to stretch that grant to I know not what farther matter I forbeare to set downe any proofe of this exposition because it is cleare enough of it selfe if we compare this promise with the performance of it in Iohns Gospell Receiue the holy Ghost saith our Sauiour whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes soeuer ye retaine they are retained Secondly I say that this power was not peculiar to Peter but common to him with all the Apostles yea with all ministers who are their successors in preaching the Gospell shutting and opening binding and loosing Wee affirme saith Bellarmine that in those words Math. 18. which are of the same nature with the other Math. 16. nothing is graunted but onely it is there declared and foretold what power the Apostles and their successors were to haue Those things saith Maldonatus that are here promised to Peter agree not onely to him but to all Apostles Bishops and Priests Whereupon Theophylact saith that although it was said to Peter onely I will giue thee the keyes yet the keyes were granted to all the Apostles when when he said whose sins you forgiue Therefore this promise of giuing the keyes conueyes no other priuiledge to Peter then to all the Apostles yea to all true ministers of the Gospell by the iudgement of your owne Iesuits But Christ prayed especially for Peter that his faith might not faile And good reason not without need for he knew that Satan would tempt him shreudly and giue him a fouler foyle then euer he gaue any of his other Apostles Yet Austin brings in our Sauiour speaking in generall I haue prayed the Father
reason why we lay challenge to all those men as members of our Church and not of yours They agree say we disproue vs if you can with vs in the substance of doctrine concerning saluation by Iesus Christ and other points of the foundation If you were able to shew the like which is vnpossible yet would it not follow that they were of your Church because no man is in your account a member of your Church but he that agrees with you in all matters defined by your Church wherein I confidently anow and am readie to iustifie it there is no auncient writer in the first thousand years that is of your opiniō though in some one point or other they may agree with your doctrin But indeed we haue no saints canonized by our Church and made mediators betwixt God and vs to rob Iesus Christ of his office and God the Father of thanks due to him for granting our requests And if this want make our Church vnholy the Church in the time of our Sauiour himselfe and of his Apostles was most vnholy in which there neuer was any such practise or doctrine Indeed this is the maine holinesse whereby the learned of your side seeke to proue the truth of your Church and not that other of particular mens conuersation And what say you against our doctrine in this behalfe Forsooth that it cannot of it selfe leade the most precise obseruers of it to holinesse The particulars of our doctrine accused by you shall be defended in their seuerall places now a word or two onely in generall How doth any doctrine leade to holinesse but by propounding the rules of true obedience to God wherein all holinesse consists How doe the arts of Grammer Logicke Arithmeticke and Geometry leade a man to speake reason number and measure well but by deliuering the true rules to these purposes which in themselues direct to perfection in euery one of these professions And can our doctrine be said to be insufficient which acknowledgeth the scriptures of God to be the rule of all righteousnesse and all men bound to liue in obedience to the will of God contained and reuealed in them Do not we teach men that vpon paine of damnation they must labour to keepe all Gods commaundements whatsoeuer Are not our expositions of the commaundements as large in duties prescribed and sins forbidden as yours are Do we or you perswade men that there are some veniall sinnes small breaches of Gods law not to be regarded whereas we shew that euery least transgression of the law is damnable But because you charge vs with particular points which incline men as you say to libertie and loosenesse of life I will come to the examination of them seuerally yet but shortly for that I haue answered them all in another treatife against certaine articles propounded by one of your Popish faction It is vtterly vntrue that our doctrine inclines any man to breake fasting dayes nay rather we enioyne all men to obserue dayes lawfully set apart for fasting with all care and good conscience both for preparation to and cariage in the action As for your dayes of abstaining from flesh we hold the institution of them to be voyd of Religion and vnlawfull as making them in themselues a part of Gods seruice whereas a man for all your fasting may glut and gorge himselfe with wine and all dainties so he eate no flesh and yet keepe your Popish fast without danger of any censure for transgressing your law of fasting Confession of sinnes to a minister we neither commaund as a necessarie dutie nor forbid as a sinne but leaue it free to euery mans conscience as he findeth need of instruction or comfort It is so far from being a remedie of sinne as it is vsed by your church that it rather prouokes men to sinne because they haue so readie and easie a meanes to disburden their consciences as they thinke when they haue sinned A worthy gentleman that hath seene the experience of this matter doubteth not to auouch as much as I say that your people sinne that they may haue somewhat to confesse and confesse that they may returne to sin yea I can name and if need be bring forth one who hath bene faine in confession to accuse himselfe of sinnes which he neuer committed because his ghostly father would not be perswaded but that being a young man and liuing in one of your Popish countries he must needs be defiled with the corruptions of the place and age There is no one point wherein you more bewray your selues to be seruants and not sons of God then this confession against your owne soules that you would neglect the doing of good workes but that you looke to merite euerlasting life by them This motiue to good workes is so base that no man of a free nature would yeeld vnto it The very Philosophers could teach you that vertue is to be loued for vertue and not for any outward respect or consequent that may follow thereupon and God is more dishonored by your opinion of meriting then honored by any your supposed good workes whatsoeuer If you had euer felt what a sharpe spurre to holinesse of life the assurance of forgiuenesse of sinnes is you would neuer thinke that the practise of good workes is lightly esteemed where the mercie of God hath brought peace to the damned conscience And yet we want not that other helpe expectation of reward which we are sure shal be giuen to the least of our good works though not vpon their desert but of the meere mercie of God in Iesus Christ That wicked opinion of merit either before or after grace doth puffe vp the pride of mans nature and diminish the glorie of Gods mercie in Iesus Christ Wages vpon desert is the hire of seruants reward bestowed in loue is the gift of a kind father to a gracious sonne who hath shewed himself willing to performe duties of obedience What men doth it make carelesse but those proud Pharises that stand at the staues end with God and thinke scorne to labour in keeping the commandements vnlesse they may so keep them as to claime heauen vpon desert by keeping of them Is it not enough to stir vp any poore Christian soule to obedience that God will accept of his weake endeuours being performed in truth and singlenesse of heart and reward them with an vnspeakable measure of glorie There is no man vnlesse he be more desirous of his owne glorie then Gods but wil be content and glad to confesse his vnabilitie to performe the whole will of God perfectly and yet striue from time to time to doe as much as his corruption will giue way to It seemes that not diuinitie onely but also common reason failes you Shall I be carelesse in bearing my horse head and holding him vp from falling because I am sure he treads neuer a sure step but will stumble or trip continually do the best I can Put case
yet saith Thomas they had not perfect faith because some of them were by false Apostles seduced so that they thought the cermonies of the law were to be ioyned with the Gospell He doth not saith your interlinear Glosse commend their faith as perfect but their readinesse and desire to embrace Christ All which notwithstanding we willingly graunt that the Romane Church was at that time and long after a true Church what gather you of this graunt I hope you will not say that therefore it must needs be a true church still But we shal better vnderstand your meaning by that which followeth There is nothing you Papists are more afraid of then to be drawne to iustifie your doctrine by Scripture Therefore you alwayes keepe aloofe and tell vs of the Church the Church as the Iewes did Ieremie of the Temple The Romane Church say you was once a true Church Who denieth it Therefore is it so still I say you that it is vnlesse you can shew at what time it departed from the true faith Did you neuer know any man who in his youth had blacke haire and now being old is all white headed Put case I would stand verie stifly vpon your argument and say that his head is blacke still and vrge you to tell me when the first haire changed white Would you answer me or laugh at me for my folly But such changes in faith say you would haue bene resisted or at least recorded by some and you prooue it thus If no heresie as contrarie to truth as blacke is to white was euer heard of to haue arisen without noting or resisting nor any such could now possibly so arise then no such thing is to be beleeued of the Romane Church But no such heresie was euer heard of to haue arisen nor can so arise without noting or resisting Therefore no such thing is to be beleeued of the Romane Church That I may answer directly to your Syllogisme remember which I also noted before that you take it as granted that there was neuer any noting or resisting of errours but there is yet record remaining of it Whereas we gessing reasonably of that which is past by that we see euerie day perswade our selues that your Popish inquisitors and censurers haue raced and destroyed many records wherein the arising of your errors and the resistance made against them haue bene noted I would speake more of this matter but that almost euerie childe knoweth how shamefully and lewdly you deale euerie day with your owne mens writings who forced by the euidence of truth here and there giue witnesse to our doctrine in their bookes We see not then why we may not yeeld this conclusion for ought that it can aduantage you or hurt vs. All such errours doubtlesse haue bene noted and resisted though the records thereof be perished defaced or destroyed by your Antichristian Prelates Secondly though it were granted to be true that No heresie as contrarie to the truth as blacke is to white euer could arise without being noted or recorded yet might your Popish errours haue stollen in for the most part vnperceiued Because they were not apparently contrary to the knowne truth as the absurd examples you bring of sacrificing an Oxe or worshipping a Cow are Poperie as the Apostle saith of it vnder the title of Antichristianisme is a mysterie of iniquitie which began to worke in his daies and by little and little with colourable pretences wrought it selfe into the Church till it came to that height in which all the world now seeth it I might exemplifie this matter in that great point of your Popes licentious and vnlimited authority how it began by reason of the place Rome being the chiefe seat of the Empire how it grew by the fauour of the Emperours and the worthinesse of some Bishops of that sea and so crept on till it had gotten strength to trample the Emperours themselues vnder foote It is said by way of prouerbe that Rome was not built in one day The speach is as true of your Popes Romish gouernment as of Romulus first founding the Citie The occasions and pretences of your Popes greatnesse were reasonable faire to shew and seemed to promise I know not what securitie to religion and peace to Christendome but the euenthath shewed that the one by it was for a time quite ouerthrowne the other partlie destroyed and altogether brought into great hazard But I may not enlarge my answer to farre Our Historiographer whom you finde fault with no doubt spake in that iust indignation he conceiued against the intollerable pride of the Romish Monke Austin in pittie of that bloodshed which insued vpon his finding fauour with the Saxon kings whom he caused to imbrew their hands in the bloud of many thousand poore Christians because forsooth they would not submit themselues to his insolencie If his speech sound vnpleasantly in your eares how would you haue liked that of our Sauiour in the Gospell VVo be to you Scribes and Pharisies Hypocrites For ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made you make him two fold the childe of hell more then your selues For saith Ierome he that before did but simply erre in his ignorance by your lewd conuersation is driuen from his profession backe againe to Gentilisme Surely they that before were heathen and might by Gods blessing haue bene wonne to the truth of the Gospell through the preaching of the Britans and their humble conuersation by this Austin lost the opportunitie and became persecutors of true Christians for your pride and superstition with which afterward the whole nation was miserably ouerwhelmed and at last almost perished vnder the Normans But to giue you some better satisfaction touching this point heare I pray you in a few words what one of your owne writers saith It is a thing full of horror saith Bucchingerus either to reade or remember that the Popes of Rome practised such tyranny one against another O how are they degenerated from their Ancestors It could not be that in the time of such cruelty there should be any regard had of Christian pietie Let no man then maruaile if some abuses and peruerse opinions crept into the Church There was great ignorance of the Scripture and loue of superstition The Lord sending men strong delusions that they should beleeue lies because they had not receiued the loue of the truth You presse vs here as you thinke with some probabilitie that if there had bene any alteration of religion it would certainly haue bene recorded But how should it haue bene recorded when it was not seene You dreame of a sodain change where as the alteration grew from good to bad yet with shew of some goodnesse and from bad to worse so nicely that few or none could discerne it Your probabilities are two The former in this manner If there could not a little
so many Bishops of their faction Vincentius acknowledgeth a succession continued though secretly from Simon Magus to Priscilian Let vs see ' now whether you bring any better reason for your selues then you haue done against vs They are euen much about one That Church which can shew a line all succession of her Bishops without interruption from the Apostle Peter to Cloment now liuing is Apostolicke But the Church of Rome can shew such a succession without interruption Therefore the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Tertullian thought it sufficient to proue the hereticks not to be Apostolicke that their doctrine agreed not with the Apostles And Ambrose truly affirmed that they haue not the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter He saith Nazianzen that professeth the same doctrine of faith is partaker of the same throne But he that embraceth contrary doctrine must be thought an aduersary euen in the throne He may haue the name but the other hath the truth of succession Therefore Irenaeus saith plainly that those Bishops onely are to be obeyed who together with succession haue the truth But of this I spake before Chap. 15. Where there is no beginning what continuance or successiō can there be Is not the question whether Peter were euer at Rome or no full of doubt Are you able in any sort to resolue it by Scripture vnlesse perhaps we may say that he neuer came there because it is no where plainly set downe nor probably to be gathered from thēce that euer Saint Peter was at Rome But it is more vnlikely that euer he was Bishop of Rome I might go forward to aske you who was his successor Linus or Clement which is a point not agreed vpon by auncient writers Since that time you haue had 32. schismes in your Church sometimes two sometimes three Popes at once that your succession cannot be so cleare as you would make it To proue your minor you tell vs that the auncient Fathers did much esteeme succession from the Apostles and vsed it as an argument to confound the hereticks and to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholicke Church Who denieth that succession is to be esteemed and that it hath some force to confute and confirme But what succession is it that is of such price force Personall succession alone without truth VVe heard ere while what Tertullian Irenaeus Nazianzen and Ambrose say concerning succession that without truth it deserueth no credit Yea some of your owne writers confesse that an argument from succession doth not hold affirmatiuely as if there were a true Church wheresoeuer there is succession VVherby doth Irenaeus confound heresies by shewing a personall succession of Bishops from the Apostles VVhat could that helpe the matter vnlesse he be also able to proue that the doctrine he maintaines hath come successiuely from the Apostles by them He speaks plaine enough We confound all errors by the doctrine of the Apostles and the faith preached to men by thē Let not the word tradition trouble any man Irenaeus for that expounds himselfe where he saith that the Apostles first preached the Gospell and afterward by the will of God deliuered it to vs in the Scriptures to be the pillar and foundation of our faith The continuance of this doctrine by succession is vsed by Irenaeus as a motiue to perswade men to the liking of that truth which had receiued so good acceptation and was warranted by so good authority as the teaching of the Apostles themselues In a word Irenaeus saith that heresies might then be refuted by shewing that they who had bene ordained Bb. by the Apostles and their successors continued in the doctrine receiued without any approbation of such hereticall fancies Austin you say was held in the Church as himselfe professeth by the succession of Priests from the verie seat of Peter And why should he not be held by that rather thē leaue the Church for the dreames of the Manichees VVe say as Austin did that such a succession is a better proof of the Church then their bare promise of truth especially since as the same Austin sheweth otherwhere they wold haue their word to be takē as you now would haue yours for sufficient proofe But Austin in the verie same place you alledge addeth withall that if they could shew that the truth was on their side he would preferre it before succession and whatsoeuer other reason that made him continue a member of the Church In this sense did those other ancient writers esteeme and vrge succession whose names you muster to small purpose but onely for shew of authoritie Concerning that speech of Athanasius be not so iniurious either to him or your selues as to presse his testimony to so leud a purpose Would you haue men thinke that he which refuted and confounded Arius and his complices by so many and so worthy proofes out of the holy Scriptures would condemne not onely other men but himselfe also for deriuing his faith in that point from the Scriptures But though you care not what become of all the Fathers so your Popery may flourish yet like a reasonable man consider what a terrible blow you giue your owne cause Is there no other marke of the Church but succession Then by Bellarmines iudgement there is none at all who allowes it not as a certaine light to shew vs the Church But what wants it of blasphemy to pronounce men to be hereticks for making the Scriptures the foundation of their faith to which purpose Irenaeus saith that they were left And I pray you answer me directly why it should not be as lawful for me to groūd my faith vpon the beginning of this succession in the Apostles as vpon the continuance of it in other men Yet might Athanasius well say concerning that point of our Sauiour Christs Godhead that he was to be counted an hereticke that should deriue the beginning of his faith from any other ground then the whole succession wherein the Apostles were comprehended and whose doctrine the Churches of Christ till that time in that matter had followed But how will you proue out of this place of Athanasius that this should be a mark to discerne hereticks by alwaies It was then an excellent and admirable argument in that point not of it owne nature but because the truth had successiuely bene held till those times How will you answer Bellarmine who affirmes confidently and truly that truth goes not alwaies with succession For if it did why should not succession be a certaine mark of a true Church But Bellarmine saith it is not You tell vs that otherwise the ordinance of Pastors made by our Sauiour Christ shall be frustrate of the effect intended by him What vnlesse there be truth wheresoeuer there is succession Then can it not come to passe that any Pastor hauing lawfull ordination can erre For if one
may for all the priuiledge of succession doubtles succession doth not by the nature of it free a man from erring But they cannot all vniuersally erre What is that to purpose vnlesse this impossibilitie of erring proceed from succession Let vs draw your reason into forme that we may the better see the force or weaknesse of it If our Sauiour haue appointed a succession of Pastors that the Church may not be caried away with euery blast of doctrine then succession and truth go together But our Sauiour hath appointed Pastors to that purpose Therefore succession and truth go together Now the weaknesse of your reason easily bewrayes it selfe the consequence of your maior is so feeble Shall I shew it you euidently in a like matter If God appointed Dauid and his successors to rule his people according to his wil and word that they might truly serue him then whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God But God did appoint Dauid and his successors to that end Therefore whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God I shall not neede to make any further answer to your maior vnlesse perhaps I may bring the like reason from Gods appointing a succession of Priests and Leuites in the Church of the Iewes to the very same end that the people might know and do his will which intent of his notwithstanding was often made voyde both by Priests and people Yet do not we say that the world hath at any time bene without true Pastors and their flockes in some one place or other in a greater or lesse number who haue taught and beleeued the true faith of Iesus Christ in all points fundamentall without distinct beleefe whereof no man can be saued But we denie that either all or any Pastor hath this priuiledge because of his succession yea we affirme that a Christian congregation where the ordinarie meanes cannot be had may chuse and authorize any man able and fit to teach for their Minister and the truth of God may be in such companies preserued without any plea of not erring by reason of succession established by vertue of our Sauiours appointment To that of Nazianzen I answered before he speaketh not of the vniuersall Church as you falsly auouch but of seuerall congregations as his very words shew Order saith he hath decreed in Churches not in the vniuersall Church that the flocke and the Pastor should be diuers the flocke one thing the Pastor another or that some should be the flocke othersome the shepheards You may say what you will and be neuer a whit the nearer if you bring no better proofe then yet you haue done Saint Augustine biddeth the Donatists number the Priests and see who haue succeeded one another in the Bishopricke of Rome What conclude you from thence That the Church of Rome was at that time Apostolicke in regard of personall succession Who denieth it But it followeth not hereupon either that it is still in that sort Apostolicke about which we will not striue or which is the principall matter that it hath therefore such Apostolicknesse as is required to make a true Church namely truth of doctrine which must needs be meant by Augustine in the words that immediatly follow That is the rocke against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not For it is more then absurd to make personall succession the rocke on which the Church is builded and against which hell gates cannot preuaile It was a likely argument against the Donatists that in so long a succession there had bene neuer a Donatist which Saint Augustine himselfe in another place concludeth after he hath reckoned vp all the Romane Bishops from Linus to Anastasius then liuing In the ranke of this succession saith Augustine there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist This testimonie of Irenaeus was neuer of your owne reading in him as the corrupt alledging of it perswadeth me I will set it downe as it is in the author himselfe By this ordination and succession saith Irenaeus the tradition of the Apostles hath come to vs And this is a most full demonstration that it is one and the same quickning faith which hath bene preserued and truly taught in the Church from the Apostles till now What one word or letter is there in this sentence to prooue that your Church of Rome at this day is Apostolicke or that bare personall succession is enough to make a Church Apostolicke Rome in Irenaeus time was an Apostolicall Church because it had preserued and truly taught successiuely Bishop after Bishop the doctrine which was deliuered by the Apostles Is it therefore Apostolicke now when it hath ouerthrowne the verie foundation of the Apostles doctrine I maruell what Apostolicke Churches they are with which you communicate whereas you say that there is no Church that hath succession from the Apostles but yours Your Monks of Burdeaux draw the vniuersall Church to the communion of the Romish Church It was indeed a testimonie of the truth to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches in Tertullians time while the truth was for the substance of it preserued amongst them But let vs apply this to our purpose what would you prooue by it that the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Here is no mention nor thought of your Church in particular But Tertullian saith it is a testimonie of truth for a man to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches It was then a testimonie but now those Churches are decayed or if some of them remaine amongst the Grecians wil you grant that all they hold is true How will you prooue that Tertullians generall speech belongeth more to your Church then to those of the Greeks Tertullian telleth you afterward that contrarietie to the Apostles doctrine may conuince Churches not to be Apostolicke though they alledge succession from the Apostles But his opinion may sufficiently appeare by that which hath bene formerly alledged out of him and the truth of this whole question by your discourse and my answer to it A. D. CHAP. XVII The Conclusion of the whole discourse A. W. The conclusion of your whole discourse as your selfe expound it in your preface is this that the faith which the authoritie of the Romane Church commendeth to vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith But this Chapter is such as that you might rather terme it a recapitulation then a conclusion of your discourse For the greatest part of it by farre is spent in a needlesse repetition of that which was before deliuered and that which should be indeed your conclusion is scarce signified in it A. D. §. 1. Now to make an end considering all this which I haue said and prooued to wit that there is but one infallible entire faith the which is necessarie to saluation to all sorts of men the which faith euerie one must learne by some knowne
of some men for the worke of the ministerie by prayer and laying on of hands Your example of Oziah is little to the purpose For it had not bene lawfull for him to offer incense though he had bene consecrated with all the ceremonies that belong to the office of the priesthood because the office of offring incense was appropriated by God to the house of Aaron as Azariah signifieth in his speech to Vzziah This appointment of God was their calling the outward ceremonies were but to shadow forth the excellencie of our Sauiour Christs priesthood Neither doth the Apostle prooue the lawfulnesse of Christs priesthood by his consecration answerable to Aarons as your alledging of the place intends but onely by the Lords authorizing of him to that office Christ tooke not to himselfe the honour to be made the high Priest saith the Apostle but he that said vnto him Thou art my sonne this day begat I thee gaue it him As he also in an other place speaketh Thou art a Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedech what word is there here of our Sauiours consecration You proceed to heape error vpon error to the preiudice of Gods truth and destruction of his people If euery man be to be held for a true Pastor and as such a one to be beleeued if he haue an orderly admission and allowance to teach had not Arius Nestorius Eutyches Macedonius and many other heretickes lawfull ordination according to the custome of the Churches in those times Yea were not Luther Bucer Martyr authorized by your Church and Caluin too as you say afterward when you accuse Luther and him for leauing their former profession Come no hirelings in by the doore if lawfull outward admission be the doore How many that enter lawfully become wolues afterward I know this saith Saint Paul to the Ephesians that after my departure grieuous wolues shall enter in among you not sparing the flocke Moreouer of your owne selues shall men arise speaking peruerse things Who can doubt but some of these might be euen of the number of them who were lawfully admitted by imposition of hands and prayer the onely meanes of consecration in those times before your shauing and greasing was heard of in the Church But you ignorantly or wilfully abuse that place of the Euangelist by applying it to the ordinary ministerie of the Gospell whereas it belongeth to the office of the Messiah and the calling that hee had from God to bee the great shepheard of our soules All that came before him professing themselues to be the Messiah as Iudas and Theudas did were theeues and robbers entring not in by the doore that is by commission from God but coming in another way by their counterfetting of a pattent from God Neither was the preseruation of the people but their owne aduancement the marke they shot at But the true shepheard Iesus Christ came to giue his life for his sheepe that they might be saued This is the true sense of that worthy sermon which if we will apply to ministers they must be held for true Pastors which being authorized thereunto do preach Christ Iesus truly without mingling any such doctrines as may by any meanes draw vs from the acknowledging or resting vpon him for saluation He that so teacheth and is authorized thereunto commeth in by Christ the doore especially if he haue withall a true desire to feed the flock committed to him in the sinceritie of his heart But if you stand onely vpon outward calling the Priests and Leuits wanted it not who yet were theeues because they endeuored to steale away the hearts of the sheepe from Christ the true shepheard That which followeth of the necessitie of miracles or extraordinarie sanctitie concernes not vs who pleade not any extraordinarie sending Luther was appointed by your Church to preach the Gospel That duty according to his calling he faithfully performed neuer requiring to be credited because he was extraordinarily sent by God but because he taught that which God had left in the Scriptures for the instruction and edification of his Church in all ages till the end of the world What neede was there now of miracles or any other extraordinarie course The places you bring wee answered before The vniuersall consent of Pastors and Doctors in that they teach hath bene found to be but a crooked rule to measure truth by though we are perswaded that the world was neuer without some that held and taught so much of the truth as is absolutely necessary to saluation But that is vniuersally or generally taught which is the common doctrine of ordinary teachers howsoeuer some one or two here and there may be of a contrarie opinion How farre the Scribes and Pharisies were to be heard it appeared before where this place was alledged and answered Surely he that charged his Disciples to take heede of the leauen of the Pharisies and called them fooles and blinde would neuer commaund them to take their doctrine for the rule of truth Neither could Saint Paule meane that euerie man should be accursed who taught at any time otherwise then men commonly beleeued he speaketh not a word of any common consent in teaching and he knew that there was to be a generall Apostacy but his meaning was that they should hold him for accursed that deliuered any other doctrine of saluation how generally so euer it were taught then that which he himselfe had preached to thē But of this also before I hope you are not so mad as to imagine that any man will beleeue that Saint Austin so many hundred yeares ago prophesied that your Pastors and Doctors should from time to time teach nothing else generally but that which had in his daies descended from hand to hand from Christ and his Apostles Or do you thinke it would prooue a good reason to say Austin affirmeth that Ambrose and other learned men who liued in the first 400. yeares held that which they found in the Church and taught that which they had learned Therefore it cannot be that since his time other men haue preached or written otherwise But be like this place was alledged by you rather for ornament and shew then for proofe or vse and so let it passe Though there were no other reason to make vs mislike your Church yet this were cause enough of doubt that the foundation whereon you build it in this Treatise and the like is so weake and vncertaine We must beleeue you because you are the Church Who saith so Your selues But you will prooue it by Scripture How shall I know that you bring to be Scripture The Church telleth you so Shall I laugh at you or pitie you You are the Church because the Scripture saith so The Scripture is Scripture to vs because you say so Were the Galathians so senslesse as they that beleeue such absurd fooleries Or is it possible that any