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truth_n place_n spirit_n worship_v 2,835 5 9.1263 5 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A15082 A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of DivĀ· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit* White, Francis, 1564?-1638.; Laud, William, 1573-1645.; Baylie, Richard, b. 1585 or 6, attributed name.; Cockson, Thomas, engraver.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641. 1624 (1624) STC 25382; ESTC S122241 841,497 706

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whatsoever_o it_o may_v now_o determine_v into_o which_o error_n some_o opposer_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n have_v fall_v and_o upon_o this_o be_v ground_v your_o question_n wherein_o be_v we_o near_o to_o unity_n if_o a_o council_n may_v err_v in_o relate_v the_o b._n his_o answer_n to_o this_o you_o be_v not_o so_o candid_a as_o you_o confess_v he_o ingenuous_a before_o for_o his_o word_n do_v not_o sound_a as_o you_o seem_v to_o do_v that_o we_o shall_v hold_v with_o the_o council_n err_v or_o not_o err_v till_o another_o come_v to_o reverse_v it_o as_o if_o ground_n of_o faith_n may_v vary_v at_o the_o racket_n and_o be_v cast_v of_o each_o side_n as_o a_o cunning_a hand_n may_v lay_v they_o you_o forget_v again_o omit_v at_o least_o and_o with_o what_o mind_n you_o best_o know_v the_o b._n his_o caution_n for_o he_o say_v the_o determination_n of_o a_o general_n council_n err_v be_v to_o stand_v in_o force_n and_o have_v external_a obedience_n at_o the_o least_o yield_v to_o 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1._o tim._n 2_o 4._o but_o without_o understand_v the_o quality_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n people_n may_v be_v baptize_v believe_v and_o repent_v and_o have_v all_o the_o ordinary_a mean_n of_o salvation_n as_o appear_v by_o the_o jew_n ast_n 2_o 41._o and_o the_o eunuch_n act_v 8_o 37._o and_o lydia_n act_v 16_o 14._o and_o many_o gentile_n act_n 13_o 48._o and_o the_o elect_a lady_n and_o her_o child_n 2._o john_n v._n 1_o 2_o 4._o and_o the_o corinthian_n galatian_n ephesian_n and_o the_o seven_o church_n of_o asia_n apoc._n 2_o 3._o etc._n etc._n occam_n say_v inchoaretur_fw-la that_o after_o christ_n ascension_n many_o people_n be_v save_v before_o the_o roman_a church_n have_v any_o be_v and_o aeneas_n siluius_n romanam_fw-la affirm_v that_o the_o first_o 300_o year_n before_o the_o nicene_n counsel_n small_a regard_n be_v have_v of_o the_o roman_a church_n johannes_n maior_n say_v damnationis_fw-la it_o be_v over_o hard_a to_o affirm_v that_o the_o indian_n and_o other_o 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the_o roman_a ephesine_n corinthian_n etc._n etc._n be_v not_o in_o such_o sort_n the_o pillar_n and_o ground_n of_o truth_n as_o that_o they_o be_v in_o no_o danger_n of_o error_n sanctitati_fw-la the_o other_o two_o place_n isaiah_n 2_o 1._o dan._n 2_o 35._o be_v principal_o understand_v of_o christ_n montem_fw-la and_o his_o apostle_n and_o they_o prove_v not_o the_o jesuit_n position_n which_o be_v it_o be_v the_o most_o important_a controversy_n of_o all_o other_o to_o know_v whether_o the_o roman_a church_n be_v the_o true_a church_n for_o the_o present_a church_n of_o rome_n be_v a_o molehill_n and_o not_o the_o mountain_n prophesy_v of_o isaiah_n 2._o the_o same_o fill_v not_o the_o whole_a world_n but_o only_o a_o small_a part_n of_o the_o world_n neither_o do_v the_o same_o ancient_o for_o 500_o year_n at_o the_o least_o fill_v the_o whole_a world_n for_o many_o people_n both_o in_o the_o east_n and_o west_n be_v christian_n without_o depend_v upon_o it_o neither_o be_v the_o same_o always_o illustrious_a for_o virtue_n and_o truth_n but_o sometime_o notorious_a for_o superstition_n and_o vice_n etc._n if_o our_o adnersary_n will_v contend_v that_o there_o be_v in_o all_o age_n avisible_a church_n like_v unto_o a_o great_a mountain_n fill_v the_o whole_a world_n upon_o the_o top_n whereof_o stand_v the_o tradition_n of_o all_o true_a doctrine_n conspicuous_a and_o illustrious_a 1._o the_o place_n of_o isaiah_n and_o daniel_n affirm_v not_o this_o concern_v all_o time_n and_o age_n of_o the_o church_n 2._o the_o scripture_n foretell_v a_o large_a revolt_n and_o apostasy_n from_o heavenly_a truth_n 2._o 3._o our_o adversary_n themselves_o acknowledge_v that_o the_o outward_a face_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n at_o some_o time_n have_v be_v and_o again_o may_v be_v miserable_o pollute_v with_o foul_a and_o enormous_a scandal_n and_o abomination_n etc._n jesvit_n if_o this_o church_n be_v overthrow_v the_o total_a
no_o lie_n nor_o his_o power_n any_o inconstancy_n because_o therefore_o christ_n have_v a_o true_a and_o perfect_a body_n both_o in_o regard_n of_o substance_n and_o matter_n and_o also_o in_o respect_n of_o quantity_n eucharistia_n stature_n measure_n posture_n proportion_n etc._n etc._n and_o because_o every_o true_a humane_a body_n by_o the_o ordinance_n of_o the_o creator_n who_o have_v form_v and_o constitute_v the_o several_a kind_n and_o nature_n of_o thing_n after_o a_o special_a manner_n be_v determine_v to_o one_o individual_a place_n at_o one_o instant_a sancti_fw-la and_o must_v also_o have_v distinction_n and_o division_n of_o part_n with_o a_o length_n latitude_n and_o thickness_n proportional_a to_o the_o quantity_n thereof_o therefore_o except_o god_n himself_o have_v express_o reveal_v and_o testify_v by_o his_o word_n that_o the_o contrary_n shall_v be_v find_v in_o the_o humane_a body_n of_o christ_n and_o that_o the_o same_o shall_v have_v one_o manner_n of_o corporal_a be_v in_o heaven_n and_o another_o in_o the_o holy_a eucharist_n at_o one_o and_o the_o same_o time_n a_o christian_a can_v be_v compel_v to_o believe_v this_o doctrine_n as_o a_o article_n of_o his_o creed_n upon_o the_o sole_a voice_n and_o authority_n of_o the_o lateran_n or_o trident_n council_n some_o learned_a papist_n confess_v ingenious_o that_o seclude_v the_o authority_n of_o the_o church_n there_o be_v no_o write_a word_n of_o god_n etc._n sufficient_a to_o enforce_v a_o christian_n to_o receive_v this_o doctrine_n and_o modern_a pontifician_n be_v not_o able_a to_o confirm_v their_o present_a tenet_n to_o wit_n that_o christ_n humane_a body_n may_v be_v in_o many_o ubity_n or_o place_n at_o one_o time_n and_o that_o the_o whole_a body_n of_o christ_n be_v circumscriptive_o in_o heaven_n and_o according_a to_o the_o manner_n of_o a_o spirit_n quantitati_fw-la and_o of_o the_o divine_a nature_n itself_o without_o extension_n of_o part_n in_o every_o crumb_n of_o the_o sacramental_a form_n this_o doctrine_n i_o say_v papal_n be_v not_o able_a to_o confirm_v by_o the_o unanimous_a testimony_n and_o tradition_n of_o the_o ancient_a church_n therefore_o because_o the_o same_o be_v ground_v neither_o upon_o scripture_n nor_o tradition_n they_o beg_v the_o question_n when_o they_o allege_v god_n omnipotent_a power_n for_o it_o must_v first_o of_o all_o and_o that_o upon_o infallible_a principle_n appear_v that_o god_n will_v have_v it_o thus_o before_o his_o omnipotency_n be_v plead_v mysterijs_fw-la that_o he_o be_v able_a to_o make_v it_o thus_o but_o the_o jesuites_n sophism_n whereby_o he_o will_v entangle_v we_o within_o the_o snare_n of_o fundamental_a error_n when_o we_o deny_v christ_n bodily_a presence_n in_o many_o place_n at_o once_o proceed_v in_o this_o manner_n no_o body_n can_v be_v true_o receive_v in_o many_o place_n at_o once_o unless_o the_o same_o be_v corporal_o present_a in_o many_o place_n at_o once_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n be_v true_o receive_v in_o many_o place_n at_o once_o to_o wit_n in_o every_o place_n where_o the_o holy_a eucharist_n be_v administer_v ergo_fw-la the_o body_n of_o christ_n be_v present_a in_o many_o place_n at_o once_o i_o answer_v the_o mayor_n proposition_n be_v deny_v for_o there_o be_v a_o twofold_a manner_n of_o true_a presence_n and_o consequent_o of_o receive_v one_o natural_a by_o the_o hand_n and_o mouth_n of_o the_o body_n another_o mystical_a and_o spiritual_a by_o the_o delivery_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n and_o by_o the_o apprehension_n and_o action_n of_o the_o soul_n first_o the_o holy_a ghost_n true_o and_o very_o reach_v and_o present_v the_o object_n which_o be_v christ_n body_n and_o blood_n crucify_v and_o offer_v in_o sacrifice_n for_o man_n redemption_n assume_v second_o the_o reasonable_a soul_n be_v elevate_v by_o a_o lively_a and_o operative_a faith_n apprehend_v and_o receive_v the_o former_a object_n as_o real_o very_o and_o true_o after_o a_o spiritual_a and_o supernatural_a manner_n as_o the_o body_n receive_v any_o corporeal_a or_o sensible_a object_n after_o a_o natural_a manner_n john_n 1._o 12._o ephes._n 3._o 17._o fulgentius_n 〈◊〉_d say_v filium_fw-la dei_fw-la unicum_fw-la per_fw-la fidem_fw-la recipiunt_fw-la they_o receive_v the_o only_a son_n of_o god_n by_o faith_n our_o saviour_n say_v that_o holy_a believer_n receive_v the_o flesh_n and_o drink_v the_o blood_n of_o christ_n john_n 6._o 50_o 53_o 54._o credendo_fw-la by_o 〈◊〉_d dente_fw-la v_o 35.47_o paschasius_fw-la degustat_fw-la have_v these_o word_n the_o flesh_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n etc._n etc._n be_v true_o 〈◊〉_d by_o faith_n and_o understanding_n it_o be_v not_o lawful_a to_o eat_v christ_n with_o tooth_n this_o sacrament_n be_v true_o his_o flesh_n and_o his_o blood_n which_o man_n eat_v and_o drink_v spiritual_o 〈◊〉_d say_v hold_v ready_a the_o mouth_n of_o thy_o faith_n open_v the_o jaw_n of_o hope_n stretchout_v the_o bowel_n of_o love_n and_o take_v the_o bread_n of_o life_n which_o be_v the_o nourishment_n of_o the_o inward_a man_n eusebius_n emisenus_n etc._n when_o thou_o go_v up_o to_o the_o reverend_a altar_n to_o be_v fill_v with_o spiritual_a meat_n by_o faith_n behold_v honour_n and_o wonder_v at_o the_o sacred_a body_n and_o blood_n of_o thy_o god_n touch_v it_o with_o thy_o mind_n take_v it_o with_o the_o hand_n of_o thy_o heart_n and_o chief_o provide_v that_o the_o inward_a man_n swallow_v the_o whole_a saint_n ambrose_n missam_fw-la comedat_fw-la te_fw-la cor_fw-la meum_fw-la panis_fw-la sancte_fw-la panis_fw-la vive_fw-fr panis_fw-la munde_fw-la veni_fw-la in_o cor_fw-la meum_fw-la intra_fw-la in_o animam_fw-la meam_fw-la let_v my_o heart_n eat_v thou_o oh_o holy_a bread_n oh_o live_a bread_n oh_o pure_a bread_n come_v into_o my_o heart_n enter_v into_o my_o soul_n saint_n augustine_n 〈◊〉_d there_o be_v another_o bread_n which_o confirm_v the_o heart_n because_o it_o be_v the_o bread_n of_o the_o heart_n and_o in_o another_o place_n bibatur_fw-la then_o be_v the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o the_o lord_n life_n to_o each_o man_n when_o that_o which_o be_v visible_o take_v in_o the_o sacrament_n be_v in_o very_a truth_n spiritual_o eat_v spiritual_o drunken_a now_o from_o the_o former_a testimony_n it_o be_v manifest_a that_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n may_v true_o and_o real_o be_v eat_v and_o receive_v by_o operative_a faith_n in_o the_o sacrament_n and_o if_o it_o be_v further_o object_v that_o spiritual_a eat_n and_o drink_v of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n may_v be_v without_o the_o sacrament_n i_o answer_v that_o the_o same_o be_v more_o effectual_o and_o perfect_o accomplish_v in_o the_o sacrament_n than_o out_o of_o the_o sacrament_n because_o the_o holy_a ghost_n directly_z and_o in_o special_a when_o the_o sacrament_n be_v deliver_v exhibit_v the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n as_o a_o pledge_n and_o testimony_n of_o his_o particular_a love_n towards_o every_o worthy_a receiver_n and_o the_o lively_a representation_n and_o commemoration_n of_o christ_n death_n and_o sacrifice_n by_o the_o mystical_a sign_n and_o action_n be_v a_o instrument_n of_o the_o divine_a spirit_n to_o apply_v and_o communicate_v christ_n crucify_v and_o to_o increase_v and_o confirm_v the_o faith_n charity_n and_o piety_n of_o receiver_n last_o it_o be_v remarkable_a that_o until_o the_o thousand_o year_n and_o more_o after_o christ_n ascension_n etc._n orthodoxal_a christian_n believe_v that_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n be_v true_o and_o real_o present_a and_o deliver_v to_o worthy_a receiver_n in_o and_o by_o the_o holy_a eucharist_n according_a to_o st._n paul_n doctrine_n 1._o cor._n 10.16_o and_o that_o the_o same_o must_v be_v spiritual_o receive_v by_o faith_n or_o else_o they_o profit_v nothing_o est_fw-la but_o the_o manner_n of_o presence_n which_o some_o modern_n now_o obtrude_v by_o consubstantiation_n or_o by_o transubstantiation_n be_v not_o determine_v as_o a_o article_n of_o faith_n suscipimus_fw-la and_o to_o say_v nothing_o of_o consubstantiation_n the_o defence_n whereof_o involu_v they_o in_o many_o absurdity_n which_o undertake_v for_o it_o it_o be_v apparent_a that_o transubstantiation_n be_v a_o bastard_n plant_v and_o upstart_n weed_n never_o plant_v by_o the_o heavenly_a father_n but_o the_o same_o spring_v up_o in_o the_o decline_a state_n of_o the_o church_n and_o it_o be_v perplex_v and_o involue_v with_o so_o many_o absurdity_n and_o contradiction_n to_o verity_n former_o receive_v that_o our_o adversary_n be_v transport_v with_o partial_a folly_n when_o he_o presume_v to_o rank_n the_o refusal_n of_o this_o new_a can._n and_o prodigious_a article_n among_o fundamental_a error_n jesuit_fw-la eightly_o their_o deny_v the_o sacrament_n of_o penance_n and_o priestly_a absolution_n the_o necessary_a mean_n for_o remission_n of_o fin_n commit_v after_o baptism_n answer_n the_o obiector_n by_o penance_n understand_v not_o repentance_n as_o it_o be_v a_o virtue_n for_o protestant_n believe_v true_a
israelite_n form_v and_o worship_v a_o golden_a calf_n they_o may_v by_o conceit_n and_o imagination_n apprehend_v and_o worship_v the_o true_a god_n but_o this_o imagination_n and_o apprehension_n be_v not_o sufficient_a to_o justify_v their_o action_n man_n may_v in_o their_o own_o wisdom_n and_o intention_n conceive_v and_o worship_v image_n and_o other_o sign_n as_o if_o they_o be_v one_o and_o the_o same_o thing_n with_o that_o which_o be_v the_o proper_a object_n of_o worship_n but_o when_o they_o conjoin_v that_o which_o god_n have_v divide_v their_o foolish_a and_o erroneous_a fancy_n and_o imagination_n make_v not_o their_o action_n lawful_a or_o please_v to_o god_n aristotle_n in_o the_o place_n object_v d._n memor_n cap._n 1._o in_o fine_a affirm_v not_o either_o verbal_o or_o in_o sense_n that_o there_o be_v the_o same_o motion_n of_o the_o conceit_n and_o affection_n illud_fw-la into_o the_o external_a image_n and_o the_o sampler_n for_o he_o speak_v not_o of_o paint_a or_o carve_a image_n but_o of_o the_o mental_a image_n and_o impression_n which_o remain_v in_o the_o memory_n after_o the_o knowledge_n of_o thing_n past_a and_o many_o schoolman_n deny_v that_o aristotle_n testimony_n be_v true_o apply_v to_o aquinas_n his_o manner_n of_o worship_v image_n among_o which_o be_v durand_n 9_o picus_n mirandula_n 3._o 〈◊〉_d aristotelis_fw-la vasques_n interius_fw-la etc._n etc._n it_o be_v also_o apparent_o false_a that_o there_o be_v the_o same_o motion_n of_o the_o mind_n and_o will_n into_o the_o image_n and_o the_o sampler_n for_o these_o be_v every_o way_n two_o distinct_a object_n and_o the_o one_o be_v a_o sign_n and_o the_o other_o a_o thing_n signify_v the_o one_o be_v the_o cause_n the_o other_o the_o thing_n cause_v and_o in_o some_o image_n the_o sampler_n be_v a_o nature_n increate_v the_o image_n consider_v as_o a_o image_n and_o in_o relation_n to_o the_o prototype_n be_v a_o thing_n create_v the_o one_o be_v adore_v because_o of_o itself_o the_o other_o respective_o because_o of_o the_o sampler_n and_o therefore_o for_o as_o much_o as_o the_o object_n be_v diverse_a and_o the_o manner_n of_o the_o action_n be_v diverse_a the_o motion_n of_o man_n heart_n towards_o the_o image_n and_o the_o sampler_n can_v be_v one_o motion_n but_o diverse_a even_o as_o when_o i_o desire_v the_o mean_n because_o of_o the_o end_n here_o be_v two_o distinct_a action_n 6._o and_o motion_n to_o wit_n election_n and_o intention_n jesuit_fw-la this_o axiom_n of_o philosophy_n that_o no_o man_n think_v it_o disavow_v in_o theologie_n the_o ancient_a father_n uniform_o teach_v as_o a_o prime_a truth_n evident_a in_o reason_n s._n damascen_n 12._o s._n augustine_n 9_o s._n ambrose_n 7._o s._n basil_n 18._o s._n athanasius_n atianas_n who_o write_v a_o image_n of_o the_o king_n be_v nothing_o else_o but_o the_o form_n and_o shape_n of_o the_o king_n which_o can_v it_o speak_v will_v and_o may_v say_v i_o and_o the_o king_n be_v one_o the_o king_n be_v in_o i_o and_o i_o in_o he_o so_o that_o who_o adore_v i_o his_o image_n do_v therein_o adore_v the_o very_a king_n thus_o he_o show_v that_o the_o king_n image_n be_v to_o be_v imagine_v and_o by_o imagination_n conceive_v and_o honour_v as_o the_o very_a king_n answer_n you_o affirm_v that_o the_o ancient_a father_n uniform_o teach_v and_o that_o as_o a_o prime_a truth_n that_o the_o image_n may_v and_o aught_o to_o stand_v for_o the_o prototype_n and_o be_v by_o imagination_n to_o be_v take_v as_o if_o it_o be_v the_o very_a person_n and_o consequent_o that_o it_o be_v joint_o to_o be_v worship_v first_o you_o say_v the_o ancient_a father_n teach_v this_o doctrine_n uniform_o second_o you_o add_v that_o they_o teach_v this_o as_o a_o prime_a truth_n but_o to_o prove_v the_o first_o you_o produce_v only_o five_o testimony_n of_o father_n of_o which_o one_o be_v not_o very_o ancient_a and_o touch_v the_o latter_a you_o bring_v nothing_o the_o testimony_n of_o the_o father_n examine_v first_o damascene_fw-la d._n fid._n lib._n 4._o cap._n 12._o say_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d where_o his_o sign_n be_v there_o be_v christ_n to_o wit_n by_o operation_n and_o grace_n first_o this_o author_n live_v 740_o year_n after_o christ_n and_o be_v none_o of_o the_o ancient_a father_n second_o it_o be_v confess_v by_o yourselves_o that_o he_o be_v not_o orthodoxal_a in_o all_o point_n for_o as_o cardinal_n bellarmine_n say_v 21._o he_o deny_v the_o procession_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n from_o the_o son_n and_o in_o the_o matter_n of_o image_n he_o differ_v from_o the_o ancient_a which_o be_v before_o he_o second_o saint_n augustine_n sunt_fw-la d._n doctr._n christ._n l._n 3._o c._n 9_o say_v he_o which_o use_v or_o worship_v any_o profitable_a sign_n be_v of_o divine_a institution_n understand_v the_o virtue_n and_o signification_n thereof_o worship_v not_o that_o which_o be_v visible_a and_o transeunt_fw-la but_o that_o rather_o whereunto_o all_o such_o thing_n be_v refer_v but_o popish_a image_n appoint_v for_o worship_n be_v no_o sacrament_n or_o ceremony_n or_o sign_n of_o divine_a institution_n but_o humane_a tradition_n condemn_v by_o saint_n augustine_n 113._o both_o among_o christian_n and_o pagan_n three_o saint_n ambros._n 〈◊〉_d d._n dom._n incarn_n sacram._n c._n 7._o say_v when_o we_o adore_v his_o divinity_n and_o his_o flesh_n do_v we_o divide_v christ_n when_o we_o worship_v in_o he_o the_o image_n of_o god_n and_o the_o cross_n do_v we_o divide_v he_o this_o father_n speak_v not_o of_o any_o paint_a image_n of_o god_n but_o of_o the_o invisible_a image_n patre_fw-la col._n 1.15_o heb._n 1.3_o and_o by_o the_o cross_n he_o understand_v the_o passion_n of_o christ_n dietatem_fw-la as_o appear_v in_o his_o next_o word_n etsi_fw-la crucifixus_fw-la est_fw-la etc._n etc._n saint_n basil_n and_o saint_n athanasius_n speak_v by_o way_n of_o similitude_n not_o of_o all_o image_n but_o of_o the_o image_n of_o king_n 〈◊〉_d which_o sometime_o not_o always_o in_o civil_a use_n and_o custom_n not_o in_o religion_n may_v be_v take_v and_o reverence_v for_o the_o principal_a but_o from_o a_o particular_a and_o from_o a_o similitude_n which_o halt_v in_o many_o thing_n apparentiae_fw-la you_o can_v conclude_v general_o and_o absolute_o where_o be_v now_o the_o uniform_a consent_n of_o father_n which_o the_o adversary_n glori_v in_o damascene_fw-la be_v not_o ancient_a saint_n augustine_n speak_v of_o sign_n which_o have_v divine_a institution_n saint_n ambrose_n of_o christ_n his_o passion_n and_o not_o of_o statue_n or_o picture_n saint_n basil_n and_o athanasius_n speak_v by_o similitude_n obiter_fw-la and_o by_o the_o way_n but_o which_o of_o these_o affirm_v that_o image_n worship_n be_v a_o prime_a verity_n but_o that_o the_o reader_n may_v the_o better_o conceive_v the_o weight_n of_o the_o adversary_n disputation_n for_o worship_n of_o image_n i_o will_v exhibit_v the_o same_o in_o a_o logical_a 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to_o a_o soul_n prepare_v by_o the_o present_a church_n tradition_n and_o god_n grace_n the_o difficulty_n which_o be_v pretend_v against_o this_o be_v not_o many_o and_o they_o will_v easy_o vanish_v 1._o first_o you_o pretend_v we_o go_v to_o private_a revelation_n for_o light_n to_o know_v scripture_n no_o we_o do_v not_o you_o see_v it_o be_v exclude_v out_o of_o the_o very_a state_n of_o the_o question_n and_o we_o go_v to_o the_o tradition_n of_o the_o present_a church_n and_o by_o it_o as_o well_o as_o you_o here_o we_o differ_v we_o use_v this_o as_o the_o first_o motive_n not_o as_o the_o last_o resolution_n of_o our_o faith_n we_o resolve_v only_o into_o etc._n prime_a tradition_n apostolical_a and_o scripture_n itself_o 2._o second_o you_o pretend_v we_o do_v not_o nor_o can_v know_v the_o prime_n apostolical_a tradition_n but_o by_o the_o tradition_n of_o the_o present_a church_n and_o that_o therefore_o if_o the_o tradition_n of_o the_o present_a church_n be_v not_o god_n 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so_o plain_o set_v down_o in_o the_o scripture_n if_o about_o the_o sense_n and_o true_a meaning_n of_o these_o or_o necessary_a deduction_n out_o of_o these_o prime_a article_n of_o faith_n general_n counsel_n determine_v any_o thing_n as_o they_o have_v do_v in_o nice_a and_o the_o rest_n there_o be_v no_o inconuevience_n that_o one_o and_o the_o same_o canon_n of_o the_o council_n shall_v be_v believe_v as_o it_o reflect_v upon_o the_o article_n and_o ground_n indemonstrable_a 1._o and_o yet_o know_v to_o the_o learned_a by_o the_o mean_n and_o proof_n by_o which_o that_o deduction_n be_v vouch_v and_o make_v good_a and_o again_o the_o conclusion_n of_o a_o council_n suppose_v that_o in_o nice_a about_o the_o consubstantiality_n of_o christ_n with_o the_o father_n in_o itself_o consider_v be_v or_o may_v be_v indemonstrable_a by_o reason_n there_o i_o believe_v and_o assent_v in_o faith_n but_o the_o same_o conclusion_n 12._o if_o you_o give_v i_o the_o ground_n of_o scripture_n 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a_o council_n if_o a_o council_n may_v err_v beside_o the_o answer_v give_v i_o promise_v to_o consider_v which_o opinion_n be_v most_o agreeable_a with_o the_o church_n which_o most_o able_a to_o preserve_v or_o reduce_v christian_a peace_n the_o roman_a that_o a_o council_n can_v err_v orthe_a protestant_n that_o it_o can_v and_o this_o i_o propose_v not_o as_o a_o rule_n but_o leave_v the_o christian_a world_n to_o consider_v of_o it_o as_o i_o do_v 1._o first_o then_o i_o consider_v whether_o in_o those_o place_n of_o scripture_n before_o mention_v or_o other_o there_o be_v promise_v and_o perform_v to_o the_o present_a church_n a_o absolute_a infallibility_n or_o whether_o such_o a_o infallibility_n will_v notserue_v the_o turn_n as_o 468._o stapleton_n after_o much_o wriggle_a be_v force_v to_o acknowledge_v one_o not_o everieway_o exact_a because_o it_o be_v enough_o if_o the_o church_n do_v diligent_o insist_v upon_o that_o which_o be_v once_o receive_v and_o there_o be_v not_o need_v of_o so_o great_a certainty_n to_o open_v and_o explicate_v that_o which_o lie_v hide_v in_o the_o seed_n of_o faith_n sow_v and_o deduce_v from_o it_o as_o to_o seek_v out_o and_o teach_v that_o which_o be_v altogether_o unknown_a and_o if_o this_o be_v so_o then_o sure_a the_o church_n of_o the_o apostle_n require_v guidance_n by_o a_o great_a degree_n of_o infallibility_n than_o the_o present_a church_n which_o if_o it_o follow_v the_o scripture_n be_v infallible_a enough_o though_o it_o have_v not_o the_o same_o degree_n of_o certainty_n which_o the_o apostle_n have_v and_o the_o scripture_n have_v nor_o can_v i_o tell_v what_o to_o make_v of_o bellarmine_n that_o in_o a_o whole_a chapter_n dispute_v 〈◊〉_d prerogative_n in_o certainty_n of_o truth_n 12._o that_o the_o scripture_n have_v above_o a_o council_n and_o at_o last_o conclude_v that_o they_o may_v be_v say_v to_o be_v equal_o certain_a in_o infallible_a truth_n 2._o the_o next_o thing_n i_o consider_v be_v suppose_v this_o not_o exact_a but_o congruous_a infallibility_n in_o the_o church_n be_v it_o not_o reside_v according_o to_o power_n and_o right_n of_o authority_n in_o the_o whole_a church_n and_o in_o a_o general_n council_n only_o by_o power_n 20._o depute_v with_o mandate_n to_o determine_v the_o place_n of_o scripture_n with_o exposition_n of_o the_o father_n upon_o they_o make_v i_o apt_a to_o believe_v this_o s._n peter_n say_v s._n augustine_n 30._o do_v not_o receive_v the_o key_n of_o the_o church_n but_o in_o the_o person_n of_o the_o church_n now_o suppose_v the_o key_n of_o doctrine_n be_v to_o let_v in_o truth_n and_o shut_v out_o error_n and_o suppose_v the_o key_n right_o use_v infallible_a in_o this_o yet_o this_o infallibility_n be_v primely_a in_o the_o church_n in_o who_o person_n not_o strict_o in_o his_o own_o s._n peter_n receive_v the_o key_n here_o stapleton_n lay_v cross_v my_o way_n again_o he_o will_v thrust_v i_o out_o of_o this_o consideration_n accepit_fw-la he_o grant_n that_o s._n peter_n receive_v these_o key_n indeed_o and_o in_o the_o person_n of_o the_o church_n but_o that_o be_v because_o he_o be_v primate_n of_o the_o church_n 〈◊〉_d therefore_o the_o church_n receive_v the_o key_n final_o but_o s._n peter_n formal_o that_o be_v if_o i_o mistake_v he_o not_o s._n peter_n for_o himself_o and_o his_o successor_n receive_v the_o key_n in_o his_o own_o right_n but_o to_o this_o end_n to_o benefit_v the_o church_n of_o which_o he_o be_v make_v pastor_n but_o i_o be_o in_o a_o consideration_n and_o i_o will_v have_v this_o consider_v where_o it_o be_v ever_o read_v that_o to_o receive_v a_o thing_n in_o the_o person_n of_o another_o be_v only_o mean_v final_o to_o receive_v it_o that_o be_v to_o his_o good_a and_o not_o in_o his_o right_n i_o shall_v think_v he_o that_o receive_v any_o thing_n in_o the_o person_n of_o another_o receive_v it_o indeed_o to_o his_o good_a and_o to_o his_o use_n but_o in_o his_o right_n too_o and_o that_o the_o primarie_n and_o formal_a right_n be_v not_o in_o the_o receiver_n but_o in_o he_o who_o person_n he_o sustain_v while_o he_o receive_v it_o this_o stumbling-blocke_n than_o be_v nothing_o and_o in_o my_o consideration_n it_o stand_v still_o that_o the_o church_n in_o general_n receive_v the_o key_n and_o all_o power_n signify_v by_o they_o and_o by_o the_o assistance_n of_o god_n spirit_n may_v be_v able_a to_o use_v they_o and_o perhaps_o to_o open_v and_o shut_v in_o some_o thing_n infallible_o when_o the_o pope_n and_o a_o general_n council_n too_o forget_v both_o she_o and_o her_o rule_n the_o scripture_n be_v to_o seek_v how_o to_o turn_v these_o key_n in_o their_o ward_n 3._o the_o three_o thing_n i_o consider_v be_v suppose_v in_o the_o whole_a catholic_a church_n militant_a a_o absolute_a infallibility_n in_o the_o prime_a foundation_n of_o faith_n absolute_o necessary_a to_o salvation_n and_o that_o this_o power_n of_o not_o err_v so_o be_v not_o communicable_a to_o a_o general_n council_n which_o represent_v it_o but_o that_o the_o council_n be_v subject_a to_o error_n this_o supposition_n do_v not_o only_o preserve_v that_o which_o you_o desire_v in_o the_o church_n a_o infallibility_n but_o it_o meet_v with_o all_o inconvenience_n which_o usual_o have_v do_v and_o do_v perplex_v the_o church_n and_o here_o be_v still_o a_o remedy_n for_o all_o thing_n for_o if_o private_a respect_n if_o seleucia_n bandy_v in_o a_o faction_n if_o power_n and_o favour_n of_o some_o party_n if_o weakness_n of_o they_o which_o have_v the_o manage_n if_o any_o mixture_n of_o state-councel_n if_o any_o departure_n from_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o word_n of_o god_n if_o any_o thing_n else_o sway_n and_o wrinch_n the_o council_n 8._o the_o whole_a church_n upon_o evidence_n find_v in_o express_a scripture_n or_o demonstration_n of_o this_o