by this argument The scripture testifieth that all which the Apostles taught was first taught of Christ himself before theÌ„ Heb. 2. but whatsoeuer Christ taught is written in the Gospel Luk. 1. Act. 5. Iohn 20. c. therefore whatsoeuer the Apâ—stles taught is written And therfore the Church pretending the Apostles tradition receiued by preaching iâ— bound to bring forth the Apostles writing or other holy scriptures giuen by the same spirit The fourth text iâ— 2. Tim. 3. which I alledge in these words saith Bristow Purg. 410. All goodworkes are taught by the scriptures which are able to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes First he taketh exception that these are not the wordes of S. Paul Indeede my wordes are an argument against prayers for the dead grounded vpon the scripture which Bristowe suppresseth But supposing that Saint Paul had saide so what a fonde reasoning is this saith Bristoâ— because one euidence proueth all therefore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely Sir if one euidence prooue all that which is not prooued by that euidence is not prooued at all But if to prooue that which is prooued alreadie by that one euidence you haue other good euidence no man letteth you to vse them Wherefore this is no fond kinde of resoning Maister Brâ—stow but such as the best Logicians do teach All good workes are taught by the scriptures therefore that which is not taught by the scriptures is no good worke But nowe S. Paul saith not that all good workes are taught by the scripture saith Bristowe Hee saith the scriptures are profitable he saith not are able or sufficient to teach all good works Againe he speaketh only of the worke of an Euangelist and not of all good workes To this I aunswere that immediately before Paul saide The scriptures are able to make Timothie wise vnto saluation through faith in Christ Iesu but no man can bee wise vnto saluation but he that knoweth all good workes meete for a Christian man to doe therefore all good workes meete for a Christian man to do may be learned by the scripture And euen in this very text where he saith Al the scripture inspired of God is profitable to teaching of trueth to disprouing of falshoode to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfect furnished to euerie good worke although you restraine euerie worke to the only worke of an Euangelist yet that I saide is necessarily concluded thereof For it is some part of an Euangelists worke to giue example in all good workes that are meet to be done by other men but by the scripture he may be perfectly furnished c. therefore all good workes are taught by the scripture Againe when all the office of an Euangelist which consisteth in teaching disputing correcting instructing in righteousnes may be perfectly furnisht at the scriptures what can be more playne to prooue that nothing ought to bee taught for truth disprooued for error corrected for vice instructed for righteousnesse but that which is taught disproued corrected instructed out of the holy scriptures Seeing therfore that prayers and oblations are to be made for the dead is not taught by the scripture it is no trueth To deny prayer to be profitable for the deade is not disproued by the scripture therefore it is no error To omit prayer for the dead is not corrected in the scripture therfore it is no vice MeÌ„ are not instructed in the scripture to pray for the dead therefore it is no worke of righteousnes The 5. 6. texts I alledge together Pur. 434. Search the Scriptures and trie the spirites to proue that the certeintie of trueth in vnderstanding the Scriptures is not to be had but by the spirite and the spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures Against this conference Bristow saieth Who euer alledged Scripture more blindly And why so I pray you because Christ saieth in the same place that Iohn did beare witnesse to the truth My workes doe beare witnesse of me Also My father who hath sent mee hee hath giuen witnesse of mee In dèed 〈◊〉 Bristowe could proue that Iohn Baptist Christes miracles or God his father did testifie any thing of him which was not before contained in the Scriptures neither had Christ giuen a perfect rule to find him in the scriptures neither is that sentence able to proue that Christ may be sufficiently learned out of the holy Scripture But if the testimonie of Iohn of the workes of God the father do all confirme the Scriptures who euer alledged scripture more blindly then Bristow to proue that Christ may not be learned sufficiently out of the newe Testament the old when Christ sendeth the Iewes to the old Testament as a sufficient witnesse of him Concerning the triall of spirits Bristow biddeth me looke in the text by this we knowe a spirit of trueth a spirite of error namely by hearing or not hearing of the Apostles I like it very well For where shall wee heare the Apostles speaking but in their writings in the other holy writings according to which they spake all that they taught Wherfore here is no tryall of the spirites but by the scriptures And where he sayeth the Romanes doe moste manifestly continue in that they heard of the Apostles because no man can name that time the noueltie the seducer that they went after although it were true that no man could in any point shew as he sayeth yet the argument is naught seeing it is proued by the Apostles writings that they holde many things not onely beside but also contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles The 7. text iâ— Pur. 285. The worde of the Lord is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our feere therefore wee will not walke in the darknesse of manâ— traditions The faithfull testimonie of Gods word only giueth true light vnto the eyes But the Prophet sayeth Bristow neither hath the worde only nor saith that Gods word is not but in writing for S. Paul referreth that text to the preaching of the Apostles To the fiâ—st quarrell I aunswere that I alledge not the wordes of the Prophet but his meaning which Bristowe cannot denye to be the onely worde of God that giueth 〈…〉 ue light to the eyes That Gods worde is not but in 〈…〉 riting I neuer sayde or thought but that there is no 〈…〉 erteintie of Gods worde but in the Scripture I affirme 〈…〉 nd that the Apostles preached nothing but that which 〈…〉 as before conteined though not so clearely in the lawe 〈…〉 nd the Prophets Last of all you alledge and saye against Iudas Ma 〈…〉 abaeus saith Bristowe Pur. 210. In the law not so much â—s one pinne of the tabernacle was omitted lest any â—hing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God You shall not doe sayth the Lorde what seemeth good in your
most places and persons alwaies 27 Christes church is nowe by GOD enlarged further than the Popish church Ar. 12. 3. 69. Contra It is but a small flocke in comparison of the malignant church of Antichrist whose number is as the sand of the sea Apoc. 20. The Popish Church is not so large as the malignant Church of Sathan by many partes which containeth all the wicked of the world the name of Antichrist is added by Bristow Yet are there more Antichristes than the Pope although he be the chiefe that sitteth in the temple of God 28 It is a good argument that the Popish church is not the church of Christ because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name the notable persons in all ages in their gouernement and ministerie and especially the succession of the Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers And it were a token that our church were not the true church if wee could name such notable persons in their gouernement and ministerie Ar. 27. Contra Such officers as are necessarie for the conseruation of Gods people in the vnitie of faith and the knowledge of Christe our Church hath neuer lacked notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time because our Church had not so many Registers Chroniclers and remembrauncers the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs. For the authoritie of the Bible we haue the testimonie of the true Church in all ages Our congregation hath euer had possession of the Scriptures GOD hath neuer suffered the true Church to be destitute of the necessarie vse of the Scripture Which the Popish Church hath so kept in an vnknowne tongue that the people could haue no vse much lesse the necessarie vse thereof The Church of GOD hath alwayes had Schooles and Vniuersities for the maintenance of godly learning The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions It was neuer so secrete nor hidden but it might be knowne of all those that had eyes to see it That a thousand yeares there was gathering together for preaching ministring and correcting God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers The Church hath neuer bene afraide to doe her office towardes her children and true members in teaching exhorting comforting confirming c. Ar. 28. 27. 9. 6. 5. 52. 11. 74. 75. 26. 82. In these large propositions howesoeuer they be patched I see no contradiction Except these be contraditories The Church was sometime hidden from her enemies and yet where shee was gathered did performe all duties to her friendes and children It was not seene of the blinde but it was seene of them that had eies 29 The Popish Church was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp Ar. 27. Contra The Church of Rome hath not alwayes practised open preaching and neuer preached the worde of trueth Ar. 85. There was small preaching before the orders of begging friers began to supply the want of the pastors And yet the popish Church glistered in her whorish pompe 30 Touching the text Matthewe 5. of a citie built vpon an hill which can not be hidden after he hath giuen his sense of it he saith Hereby it appeareth howe fondly some Papistes and some of the Doctors in their errour doe expound this place to groue that the Church must alwayes bee visible Ar. 100. Contra euen in his owne exposition there It is properly meant of the Apostles and their suâ—â—essours the Ministers of the Church he teacheth them aboue all other men to looke diligently to their life and conuersation for as they excell in place and dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vpon them As a citie builded vpon an hill must needes be seene of all that come neare it so they being placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men and can not be hidden and yet the whole Church and so also that part is not alwayes visible but may be hidden and was hidden for a thousand yeares So he saith The whole Church which is the mysticall body of Christe is inuisible Although the ministers of the Church and their conuersation can not be hidden from the members of euery particular Church 31 The true Church decaied immediatly after the Apostles time And so the errour of praying for the dead was continued from a corrupt state of the church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The Primitiue pure church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ. Againe Anno 607. The church fled into the wildernesse there to remaine a long season where she hath not decayed but bene alwaies preserued vntill God should bring her againe to open light nowe in our daies The true church shall neuer decay but alway reigne with Christ. The false synagogue shall ' daily more and more decay vntill it be vtterly destroied with Antichrist the head thereof If this be not contradiction it is much worse to wit that Luther and his Apostles haue giuen vs a visible church which shall not decay Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vs a visible church which did decay yea and plainely depart away into Apostasie The places shew that decaying hath double vnderstanding The true Church soone after the Apostles decayed in syncerity yet neuer decayed nor shall decay in continuance Luther gaue no Church but euen that Church which is best lightened by his preaching may decay in sincerity if the pastors be not diligent to teach the word of God simply 32 At euery word hee calleth the Pope Antichrist and the head of the malignant church Contra in some places he maketh two distinct heades and their distinct companies As when Mahomet in the East and Antichrist the Pope in the West seduced the world then the church fled into the wildernesse Againe The Popish church is not in euery part of the world for Mahomets sect is in the greatest part Ar. 16. 65. I call the Pope Antichrist oftentimes but that I call the Pope head of the malignant Church though Bristowe saith I doe it at euery word yet he is not able to note one place where I doe it rather Bristowe maketh a flat contradiction in saying of me At euery word he calleth the Pope the head of the malignant church Contra In some places he maketh two distinct heades and their distinct companies 33 That the true church may erre and hath erred notwithstanding any priuiledge it hath by Gods spirit we heard him say cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie Neither hath the spirit of God failed to leade her into all trueth There be some prerogatiâ—es of Gods spirite that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of faith c. And these the spouse of Christe hath neuer wanted True faith c. might be signes of the true church The spouse
of Christ by faith As for Sanders cauill that the bread is not one still seeing it is broken is an impudent Sophisme For neither can Christ at one time and in one respect be called whole and broken Do not they all eate of one sheepe which eate of it after it is deuided in partes The lawe commanded one sheep for euery houshold which was the same Sacrament in spirituall signification and effect that the one bread and cup is vnto vs. So we all eate of one material bread and are spiritually made one mysticall bread and bodie not so many aâ— eate the materiall bread but so many as eate it worthily by faith Wherefore the vertue of coniunctio is not in that which is eaten with the mouth as Sander would haue it seeme but in the mightie working of the spirite of God who not onely in this Sacrament but in all Sacraments of all times haue wrought the same spirituall vnion in all the faithful of all ages who al make one Church and one bodie whereof Christ is the head and euery one of the elect is a member CAP. V. Howe we are one mysticall bodie Sander maketh two meanes of our coniunction in this mysticall bodie faith and the Sacraments but in verie deede the spirite of God is the only principal meane which worketh this incorporation in Gods elect sometimes not onely without the Sacraments but also without actuall faith as in infants which perteine to Gods election Faith in men of yeres is an assurance of this coniunction The Sacramentes are a confirmation of faith Wherefore the bread which we breake is so a coÌ„municating of the mysticall bodie of Christ as it is an vndoubted seale of our faith by which we are assured of this communication before wee come to the communion and therefore no necessitie of the bodily presence vnder the fourme of bread For the bread that we breake is none otherwise the bodie of Christ then wee are made one bodie and one bread But wee are made one bread and one bodie spiritually and sacramentally therefore the bread is the bodie of Christ spiritually sacramentally Sander asketh Howe could one bread and one bodie be put to signifie one thing but that in deede bread and bodie are here in substance the selfe same thing I answere if bread and bodie be the selfe same thing and the selfe-same thing that the Sacrament is then is not the Sacrament the naturall bodie of Christ for wee are not made the naturall bodie of Christ but his mysticall bodie by â—â—rtaking of this bread Sander replieth that this vnion is in respect of the nanâ—rall bodie of Christ which I doe not deny but I affirme that the naturall body of Christ is communicated vnto vs by spirituall and heauenly working of his spirite and not by corporall mingling or ioyning of the same to our bodies which also Augustine in serm ad infantes aâ—â—d Bedam cited by Sander doth plainly testifie Nulli est allquatenus c. No man ought by any meanes to doubt but that he is then made partaker of the body and bloud of our Lorde when he is made a member of Christ in baptisme neither is he alienated from the company of that bread and that cuppe although before he eate the bread drinke that cuppe being placed in the vnity of Christes body he depart out of this world For he is not depriued of the partaking and benifite of that Sacrament for so much as himselfe hath found that thing which the Sacrament doth signifie whereas Christ said except ye eate my flesh and drinke my bloud ye shall not haue life in you Out of this place although it be directly against transubstantiation yet Sander is able to prooue it If the body of Christ saith he were not really vnder the forme of bread how could he that is baptised be partaker of the benifit of this SacrameÌ„t was he made partaker of bread and wine No forsooth but he is made in baptisme partaker of the bodie and bloud of Christ which is signified by that bread and cuppe So saith Augustine or who so euer was author of that sermon and therefore the bodie of Christ is none otherwise present in the supper then in baptisme But take away that bodie of Christ saith Sander from the forme of breade and there is no signe of vnitie in Christ for euery loafe betokeneth vnitie but not in Christ. Againe let the substance of breade remaine and signifie the mysticall bodie of Christ which is absent the vnion of Christ and his members is signified to be as farre asunder as heauen is distant from earth I answere this is poore Sophistry yet much vsed by Sander disioyning thinges that ought to be ioyned togither beside that this wise reason would proue likewise that baptisme is no signe of perfect vnitie in Christ because Christ is not really present with the forme of water but the substance of water remaining on earth and â—he bodie of Christ to whom wee are incorporate is in heauen Howe be it wee teach the presence of Christ in his mysteries such presence I say as is meete for his glorious maiestie namely by his spirite which ioyneth heauen and earth together and maketh our vnitie to be perfect although in nature and place wee bee neuer so farre distant And such presence of Christ in his sacraments wee acknowledge as may stande with the truth of his naturall bodie which if hee haue not like vnto ours in all thinges except sinne and such infirmitie as our bodie is subiect vnto through sinne in vaine should wee looke for the redemption of our bodies by him and the conformation of them vnto his glorious bodie The vnitie that saint Hilarie spake of wee allowe lib. 8. de Trinit If Christ assumpted truely the flesh of our bodie and wee take truelie vnder a mysterie the flesh of his bodie and by this wee shall bee one because the father is in him and hee in vs howe is the vnitie of will affirmed when the naturall propertie by the which Sacrament is a Sacrament of a perfect vnitie In this saying Hilarie reprooueth the Arrians which affirmed that the vnitie of Christ with his father was not an vnitie of nature and substance but of will only But seeing the vnitie that wee haue with Christ which is prooued by his taking of our flesh truely and by giuing his flesh truelie vnto vs vnder a mysterie in the Sacrament to bee an vnitie in substance and not in will onely it is absurd to say that the vnity of Christ and his father should bee one lie in will Now let vs see what poyson the Spider sucketh out of this wholsome flower First he noteth that we truely take the flesh of Christ I graunt vnder a mysterie as Hilarie saith so many as receiue the SacrameÌ„t worthily for els wicked men should be vnited to Christ as he is to his father Secondly the mysterie with Sander must be the forme of bread
trueth of that bodie whereof the visible sacrament was a signe token and argument and so vsed by Tertullian againste the Marcionites that likewise denyed the veritie of Christes body Wherefore in this Chapter Sander prooueth nothing lesse then in the title he promiseth CAP. IX That no man possibly can bee condemned for beleeuing the bodie of Christ to bee really present in the sacrament of the 〈…〉 ltar His title is of no man possibly but his demonstration is a simple poore man persuaded chanceably so by his teachers vpon coulour of Christes almightie power and will pretended in promising that he will giue his fleshe and wordes in saying this is my body As for them that are simplie deceaued they stand or fal to God I will neither iudge of their condemnation nor absolution But such as obstinately defende that error contrarie to their owne conscience as a great number of the Papistes which pretende faith and seeke nothing else but the ouerthrowe of faith and the glorie of God for as much as that error employeth a deniall of the trueth of Christes humanitie and consequentlie the trueth of the resurrection of our bodies which must be made like vnto the glorious bodie of Christ and inferreth manifest Idolatrie in worshipping that for GOD which is a meere creature I see not howe they can escape eternall damnation As for their defence which Sander maketh is friuolous First of the almightie power of God which is to doe whatsoeuer he will and is agreable to his glorie and not whatsoeuer we will imagine He can not therfore make his body to be in many places at once or to bee without dimension of quantitie or to bee inuisible and intangible because hee hath determined of his will to the contrarie in fiue hundreth places of scripture which testifie of the trueth of his humanitie like vnto his bretheren in all poyntes without sinne Neither doeth it derogate from his omnipotencie that hee can not doe contrarie to his will which were against his owne glorie It is no infirmitie in God that he cannot lye that hee cannot sinne that he cannot denie himselfe nor doe contrarie to his will glory but an argument of his power wisedome and goodnesse And whereas Sander saith that Christ hath determined his will in saying The bread which I wil giue is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world I answere hee hath determined no such will of giuing his flesh in the Sacrament by these wordes but of giuing his flesh to suffer death for the redemption of the worlde which is the bread whereof he speaketh so often in that Chapiter to be eaten spiritually by faith not onely in the supper but in baptisme without both the sacraments by faith onely which was eaten of all the faithfull before the incarnation of Christ without the eating of which breade of life no mortall creature can bee partaker of eternall life Further where Sander saith that Christ saide This is my bodie and gaue his twelue disciples twelue fragments or peeces whereby he shewed that hee made the substance of his body present vnder the formes of bread in diuers places c I answere he declared no will of multiplying his bodie in diuers places at one time by such words or fact For seeing he had so often before testified the truth of his humanity in somuch that he termed himselfe vsually the sonne of man and afterward offered his body to be touched and handled for triall of the truth of his resurrection these wordes were not sufficient to teach his disciples that his natural bodie could at one time be visible and inuisible tangible and intangible in locall situation and not in locall situation to be whole in one place and whole in manie places to haue quantitie actually of length bredth and thickenes to haue no quantitie actually of length breadth thicknes these contradictions I say being against nature reasoÌ„ sense his former doctrine and the scriptures touching the trueth of his naturall bodie and his argument taken of the senses after his resuâ—rection coulde not bee perswaded with onely saying This is my bodie for as much as they had hearde him saye manie thinges in like phrase where no like vnderstanding could be imagined and the scripture speaking of the sacraments vseth ordinarily to call them by the names of these things whereof they are sacramentes Wherefore there is no doubt but the disciples vnderstood these words figuratiuely sacramentally and spiritually And concerning the fragments and peeces whereof Sander speaketh he is a shamed to call them fragments or peeces of bread as Cyrillus doth of whom he borowed the phrase lest he should acknowledge breade to be any part of the Sacrament But what declaration can he make of the will of Christ concerning transubstantiation of the breade into his bodie which euen the schoolemen affirme cannot be prooued out of the scriptures And seeing Sander in his fond Dialogisme induceth Christ saying that one of his works cannot be contrarie to another seeing his ascension abiding in heauen and comming from thence to iudgement are contrarie to this imagined presence and those articles are plainely and manifestly set forth to be beleeued howe can these onely foure wordes This is my bodie which may haue another interpretation agreeable to all the sayings and workes of God make such a declaration of the will of Christ as thereby the trueth of his humanitie remaining after it was assumed of the deitie and the resurrection of our bodies depending thereupon the ascension abyding of Christ in heauen and his comming from thence to iudgement although in words they be not denyed yet are and must be brought in doubt question and vncerteintie The other false bragges of this interpretation vniuersally receiued and alwayes taught and beleeued I omitte with his shameles slaunders of Luthers life and death wherof the one hath beene sufficiently and many times confuted the other is so well knowen and to so manie wise and godly with whom he liued and among whom he dyed that next vnto the autoritie of the scriptures no one thing more discouereth the falshood of the Papists then their impudeÌ„t slanders and lyes maliciously deuised against the true professors of the Gospel The seuenth Booke To the Preface SAnder hauing finished the sixt booke supposed to haue ended his labour but then came forth the B. of Salisburies replie vnto Doctor Hardings booke wherevpon he was moued to answere that article which concerned the reall presence But because the words of both their bookes were too large to bee inserted in this his volume hee hath chosen the pyth of either as hee affirmeth with such fidelitie as Master Iewell should finde no fault with him For my part I was likewise purposed to haue omitted the answere of this appendix partly because Master Iewels defense of the Apologie being set foorth after this booke of Sander the chiefe matters are therein by Master Iewel himselfe wayed and
true but with Cyril in these speaches it is nothing but true as he expoundeth himselfe Sander That which you saide of Saint Augustine Corporaliter non vmbraliter sed verè solidè I could not finde it vpon the 67. Psalm Fulke Then you sought it verie negligently for there it is written vpon the 16. verse of that Psalme in these words In ipso quippe inhabitat omnis plâ—nitudo diuinitatis non vmbraliter tanquam in templo a rege Salomone facto sed corporaliter id est solidè atque veraciter For in him dwelleth all the fulnesse of the diuinitie not shadowedly as in the temple made by king Salomon but corporally that is to say soundly and truely This exposition of the worde corporally pleased you not and therefore you coulde not finde it for if you had red ouer little more then halfe the discourse vpon the Psalm you must needs haue found it Sander Saith not Cyrill that the mysticall blessing maketh him to dwell corporally in vs Fulke He saith the vertue of the mysticall blessing when it is wrought in vs maketh him to dwell also corporally in vs. Iewel Saint Paul saith The heathens are become concorporall and partakers of the promise in Iesu Christ. Sander The word corporall signifieth no more but that the Iewes and Gentils are of one fellowship but the meanes of making them one remaine notwithstanding to be declared Fulke They are declared by S. Paul to be In Christ by the Gospell Iewell By the wordes corporally naturally a full perfect spirituall coniunction is meant excluding all manner of fantasies Sander Is not that coniunction which is by faith syncere loue wherof Cyrill saith we are not onely ioyned thereby but quoque also corporally a full perfect spirituall coniunction Fulke It is not full perfect by faith and loue except we be spiritually fed with the bodie blod of Christ. Sander If corporally be nothing else to say but truly without imagination How construe you these words of S. Paul All the fulnes of the Godhead dwelleth corporally in Christ Fulke I construe them as S. Augustine doth in Psa. 67. before said which place you list not to find And I pray you do you coÌ„strue corporally so that you vnderstand the godhead to be a bodie as in your next argument a coniugatis Sander How can you auoid the yoke the dependance the mutual respect that is betweene bodie bodily if bodily be truely then corpus with M. Iewel is latine for trueth Fulke The yoke is auoided when the aduerb signifieth only a similitude vnto that which is meant by the Nowne as spiritualiter enforceth not the presence of a spirite but after the similitude or maner of a spirite So angelicè viuere ventoâ—èiactare regaliter epulari To liue like an Angel To boast vainly like the winde To feast like a king c. As for corpus although it be not Latine for trueth yet to signifie trueth sometime it is not harde to finde in the scripture S. Paul saith The Iewish feastes are vmbra futurorum corpus autem Christi the shadowe of things to come but the bodie is of Christ what is the sense of bodie here but trueth As for Sanders feare least Christes naturall bodie might so be transformed into a trueth of faith or charitie or bones without fleshe or skinne without flesh or bones is vaine and foolish yea spiteful and malicious for if bodie and bodily be somtimes taken for trueth and truely according to the circumstance of the place it will not followe that those wordes should always be so taken where the text openly reclaimeth Iewel Otherwise there must needs follow this great inconuenience that our bodie must be in like maner cor porally naturally and fleshly in Christs bodie For Hilarius saith We also are naturally in him And Cyrillus We are corporally in Christ. Sander It is most true during the time of the coniunction Fulke The time of the coniunction is perpetual for Hilarie saith We are inseparably vnited in him lib. 〈◊〉 Teach your Papistes that the bodie of Christ is none owise in their mouth bodie then they are in the body of Christ you may whistle for your Popish real presence Iewel That we be thus in Christ requireth not any corporall being Sander That were a fine being M. Iewel that Christs bodie should be in vs corporally yet the being shoulde not be corporall Fulke This is a fine wit M. Sander being demanded of an horsmill to answere of a milhorse M. Iewell would knowe whether any corporall being is required that we I say we should be in Christ corporally You answere of Christes being in vs because you cannot auoide the absurditie of our beeing in Christe corporally after your corporall and carnall vnderstanding Iewell It requireth not any locall being Sander It is a locall being in respect that the substance of Christ occupieth the same place vnder the forme of bread which the substance of bread did occupie before Fulke That is a fine place for a man of perfect stature But why answere you of Christes being in the Sacrament when M. Iewel speaketh of our being in Christ corporally I perceiue your infirmitie you cannot heare on that side Iewel Christ fitting in heauen is here in vs not by a naturall but by a spirituall meane of being Sander The being of Christ in vs by his spirite is also natural concerning the nature of his godhed which is euery where Fulke Still you take chalke for cheese Wee enquire of the beeing of his humanitie whether it may be naturally sitting in heauen and here with vs. Iewell Saint Augustine sayth After that Christ is ascended he is in vs by his spirite And S. Basil and againe S. Augustine saith the like in diuerse places And Christ spake in S. Paul c. Sander Shall one trueth alwayes displace another with you These be sowters arguments Christ is God therefore he is not man he is in heauen ergo he is not in earth c. Fulke Saint Augustine by his ascension and presence by his spirite concludeth the absence of his humanitie from the earth Ascendit in Coelum non est hîc he hath ascended into heauen and he is not here In Ioan. Tr. 50. This is no sowters argument except Saint Augustine be a sowter in fine Master Sanders deintie iudgement Iewell This coniunction is spirituall therefore needeth not neither the circumstance of place nor corporall presence Sander The coniunction is spirituall but the maner of working it is brought to passe by the corporall substance of Christ. Fulke The corporal substance needeth not to come vnto vs that a spirituall coniunction may be made betweene Christ and vs the spirite of God is the onely necessarie meane to make a spirituall coniunction Iewel The coniunction that is betweene Christ vs neither doth mingle persons nor vnite substances but it doeth knit our affects togither and ioyne our willes saith S. Cyprian Sander S. Cyprian
of them that are hence departed c. This saying proueth a remembrance but not a prayer neuerthelesse of this remembrance vsed in the elder times they gathered prayers to be profitable But more clearely that it was a remembrance without prayers it appeareth by Epiphanius which interpreteth the same remembrance to be as a prayer for the sinners and for the righteous of all sortes to be a distinction of them from our sauiour Christ cont Aer ser. 75. 5 Of sacrifice and for the deade The name of sacrifice which the fathers vsed commoÌ„ly for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke of the Gentiles you might adde and of the Iewes also for that somewhere I doe affirme But howe proue you they had it of the scriptures Because Christ saide not this is I that was borne of the virgin but this is my body this is my bloude The Apostle saith not of him that eateth vnworthely that he is guiltie of Christ but he is guilty of the bodie and bloude of Christ. Why Bristowe doest thou dreame we speake of the name of sacrifice whether it bee vsed in scripture for the celebration of the Lordes supper But if I knewe saith he what is the sacrifice of a liue thing I shoulde see that Christ is heere as properly sacrificed in a mysticall manner as he was properly sacrificed on the crosse in an open manner Syr I knowe what S. Paul meaneth when hee exhorteth vs to offer vp our bodies a liuing sacrifice Rom 12. yet I am neuer the neere to vnderstand your mystical sacrifice of a very bodie vnder the mysterie of shape and colour of breade Also as blinde as you make me I see the Altar Heb. 13. of which it is not lawful for the Iewes to eate so long as they remaine in Iudaisme but that sacrifice is the death of Christ whereof none that continue in obseruation of the Leuiticall Lawe can be partakers As for the table of the Lorde and the table of diuels in one forme of speach 1. Cor. 10. proueth no sacrifice of the Lordes table opposite to the sacrifice of the Gentils but the feast of the Lordes table contrarie to the feast of the idoll offerings whereof the controuersie was and not of communicating with the sacrifices of the Gentils For if hee had ment of the sacrifices of both he woulde haue na 〈…〉 ed the altar of the Lorde and the altar of diuels For 〈◊〉 alter is proper for a sacrifice as a table for a feast or â—past So that yet I stande to mine olde assertion I canâ—ot finde one worde or one syllable in the scripture of â—ny sacrifice instituted by Christ at his last supper But â—ontrariwise I finde in the scripture that he offered onâ—y one sacrifice propitiatorie and that but once vpon the â—rosse Heb. 9. 10. Purgatorie Where I shewe out of Tertullian de anima cap. de recepâ—u that the opinion of Purgatorie after this life came first from the hethen philosophers as most notable heresies did seing all philosophers that graunted the immortalitie of the soule as Pythagoras Empedocles and Plato assigned three places for the soules departed Heauen hell and a thirde place of purifying This argument saith Bristowe proueth as wel that heauen hel â—he immortalitie of the soule had their originall of the â—hilosophers He is a perillous Logician that can so coÌ„â—ude For heauen hel and the immortalitie of the soule â—re founde in the scriptures which are before all philosophers but of the thirde place of purifying we may say as Augustine doth contra Pelag. hypognost lib. 5. Tertium peâ—itus ignoramus The thirde place we know not at al neither doe we finde it in the holy scriptures But if I would reporte the trueth Bristowe saith there is no worde of any thirde place of purifying but that those philosophers made onely two sorts of receptacles But if I find three and the third a place of purifying what shall we thinke of Bristowes trueth First hee graunteth supernas mansiones the high mansions for the soules of the Philosophers and wise men onely secondly Inferos hell or the lowe places whereof Tertulian saith Reliquas animas ad inferos deijciunt the rest of the soules they cast downe into hell 3. What say you Bristowe al the soules except Philosophers soules Could you not see betweene them imprudentes animas the foolish soules remayning according to the Stoikes about the earth which shoulde bee instructed of the wise soules What was this but a third place and a place of purifying But if you woulde haue your purgatorie more plainely described you may resort to Virgil Aeneid 6. where Anchises out of the opinion of Pythagoras rehearseth howe the soules of good men are purged Quin supremo cum lumine vita reliquit c. After this life hath left them saith he yet is not all euill nor all the infections of the bodie departed froÌ„ them and it is necessarie that such things as haue beene long gathered together shoulde by meruailous meanes be done away Therefore they are exercised with paines and suffer the punishment of their auncient euills some soules are hanged vp against the voyde windes to some their sinne remayning is washed away vnder great raging waters or burned vp with fire Euery one of vs suffer our punishments and then being but fewe wee are sent into the ioyfull Elysian fieldes c. Nowe concerning the three kindes of Purgatorie which I saide that Carpocrates the heretike inuented proued by the payment of the vttermost farthing as the papists doe theirs Bristow saith by this argument I wil winne much honestie bicause the purgatorie that Carpocrates inuented was a wallowing in all sinfull operation c. What is that to mine honestie I saide he inuented a kinde of purgatorie and Bristowe saith it was an absurde kinde of purgatorie I said he proued his purgatorie as the papists doe theirs but to that Bristowe aunswereth neuer a worde But this is small honestie for Bristow that such things as are ioyned together by me to shewe by what degrees popishe purgatorie came to perfection they are seuered by him as though I ment to charge the Papistes by such argumentes to confute their purgatorie Purgatorie fire I said that purgatorie fire was taken of the Originists For Origen brought in the purging fire by better reason out of 1. Cor. 3. for all soules then the papistes doe 〈…〉 r some soules and the name of purgatorie fire began 〈…〉 bout Augustines time by some Mediators that would 〈…〉 ccorde Origens error which was of purging all soules 〈…〉 i th the erronius practise of praying for the deade out â—f which they gathered the purging of some soules That I say of Origen although Bristowe confesse it to 〈…〉 e true in effect yet he saith I speake it without proofe My proofe is in Psal. 36. Ho. 3. Si verò in hac vita contemâ—imus c. But if in this life we contemne the words
your doctrine because you doe not iustifie it by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures But the faithfull you thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beleeued them vppon their owne worde both Christ and his Apostles because of the spirite of trueth that he sent to them And God be thanked we as faithfull men acknowledge without controuersie the spirite of trueth in Christ and his Apostles But he hath not sent his spirite to them onely sayeth Bristow but also to his Church after them for euer We doubt not but he hath giuen his spirite to his Church but not in such full measure as to his Apostles And if he had how should wee knowe that Church that hath the same spirite but by tryall of the scriptures which were vndoubtedly written by the same spirite Bristow saith the faithfull will no lesse beleeue the Church at all times for the same spirite then the Apostles He must first proue the spirite so giuen to the Church that shee can no more erre in her decrees then the Apostles could in their writings Secondly if that were proued the tryall of the Scriptures is necessary to discerne the true Church from all false congregations which all boast of the spirite of trueth as much as the true Church And seeing the holy ghost by his instrument S. Iohn biddeth vs not beleeue euery spirite but trye the spirites whether they be of God we knowe none so sure a triall as the consent of their doctrine with the holy scriptures whether it be a multitude of men or seueral persons of one age or another of one degree or other that offreth to teache any doctrine which he or they pretende to haue of the spirite of God Last of all where I sayde Age can neuer make falshod to be trueth and therefore I wâ—y not your prowd bragges worth a strawe Bristowe noteth in the margent It is pryde to follow the fathers and humilitie to condemne them Whereto I aunswere to boast of the fathers to maintaine an olde errour is stinking pryde and it is not against true humilitie to make fathers and mothers and all things else subiect to the trueth of Gods worde reuealed in the holy scriptures The second parte Being tolde that the question betweene vs is not as he maeketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the expositors he maketh the same exception of onely scripture requiring also scripture to be expounded by scripture When in all this Chapter you deny onely scripture to be of soueraine authoritie sufficiency and credite to teache vs all the will of God are you not impudent to saye the question is not of the authoritie of the Scriptures But I supposing the controuersies to be of the meaning and not of the authoritie Pur. 363. do aunswer nothing whether the likelihood bâ— on our side or on the auncient doctors side for the meaning of the scripture What then I aunswere the question of the meaning of the scriptures is needelesse in that controuersie where some of the doctors confesse prayer for the dead not to be grounded on the Scriptures other wrest the Scriptures so manifestly that the Papistes them selues are ashamed to vse those textes for such purposes This aunswere I trust will satisfie reasonable men for that controuersie After this he sayeth I count my selfe and my companions happie for such blinde presumption to search the meaning of the Scriptures only out of the Scriptures without the coÌ„mentaries of doctors but as he troweth not without the coÌ„mentaries of Caluine But herein as in all things almost he belyeth mee for I neuer spake word against the reading of the coÌ„mentaries of doctors in search of the Scriptures meaning but onely against absolute credite to be giuen to their exposition without weying how it agreeth with the holy Scriptures in other places Likewise where I compare the whole heape of superstition errour out of which Allen raiseth a mist of mens deuises to a dunghill Bristowe noteth that I make the doctors writings a dunghill Surely what superstition or errour so euer be in the doctors as the sweeping of a faire house is meete to be cast on a dunghill Let Bristowe or Allen if he list say there is no superstition or error in any of the doctors And yet it followeth not that the doctors writings are a dunghill more then that a kings pallace is a dunghil because the sweepings thereof are meete for the dunghill To passe ouer his rayling termes of drunkennesse blindnesse c. Let vs come to the meaning of the scriptures where I sayde wee shalbe neuer the more certeine of the trueth whether wee challenge or leaue the likelihod of vnderstanding the scriptures to the doctors Bristowe aunswereth whosoeuer expoundeth the scripture vnto that wherein the doctors doe agree shall bee euer most certaine of trueth which is inoughe though not alwayes certain of that same verie places meaning Wee are then much the neere when the question is of the scriptures meaning if by the consent of the doctors we cannot be certaine of the scriptures meaning And if that trueth as we beleeue that all trueth is in the scriptures howe can we be certaine of the trueth by the agreement of the doctors where we cannot be certain of the meaning of the scriptures Where I aunswere that wee haue our measure of Gods spirite as the doctors had although wee agree not with them in all interpretations euen as Cyprian and Cornelius were both indued with Gods spirite although they agreede not in exposition and iudgement of the scriptures Bristowe replyeth that Cyprian was of Cornelius his iudgement implicitè though explicitè hee were of an erronious iudgement And so is euerie Catholike erring of ignorance in effect of the trueth with other Catholikes not erring because hee qâ—eâ—ly continueth in vnitie with them and doth not obstinately holde his error against them But so is not the case betweene the olde Doctors and vs for neither will wee bee reformed by them neither woulde they be reformed by Aâ—rius Iouinianus c. whom he calleth our forefathers If you haue no greater diuersitie then this the case will be all one for neither woulde Cyprian be reformed by Cornelius neither woulde Cornelius bee re-Formed by Cyprian But if the olde Doctors had heard as good reasons against prayer for the deade of Catholikes in their time as wee can make in this time although they woulde not bee reformed by Aerius an heretike yet charitie moueth vs to thinke they would haue yelded to the trueth reuealed by a Catholike Where I conclude that the harde places of scripture are best vnderstoode by conference of the easier adding the ordinarie meanes of witt learning c. adding that whosoeuer is negligent in this search may eaâ—ie bee deceiued Bristowe noteth a comfortable do 〈…〉 rine for the ignorant forsooth As though any Christi 〈…〉 man or woman ought to bee ignoraunt in the 〈…〉 riptures
sufficient for thee my strength is perfected in infirmitie c. First he belyeth vs whome hee calleth heretikes to say that to burne is nothing else but to bee troubled with the pricking of the flesh for wee holde there is no praise of virginitie where there is no naturall prouocation vnto luste But to burne wee say is to bee so troubled as men are that are inflamed with lust and haue no lawfull meanes to quench the same Secondly beholde howe shamefully hee slaundereth Saint Paul to be much troubled with such pricking of the flesh where he complayneth of the generall rebellion of the fleshe against the spirite the messenger of Satan to buffet him euen that lawe of his members of which hee complayneth Rom. 7. which brought him captiue vnder the lawe of sinne As for that pricking which Bristowe speaketh of to bee so much in a bodie so exercised with afflictions and trauels with hunger and fastings and in a man of such age as Sainct Paul was at that time when he wrote vnto the Corinthians the second Epistle it is altogether incredible And confessing a generall rebellion of the fleshe against the spirite vnto all sinne it is not probable that he should in this place complaine of that one kinde onely from which age and weakenesse of bodie woulde priuiledge him if godly exercise did not ridde him What is it then to burne saith Bristowe or to be burned saint Paul himselfe telleth vs it is not to containe If they doe not conteine let them marrie for it is better to marrie then to burne for marriage is honorable and vndefiled but fornicatours and adulterers God will iudge The conference whereof is this Let married folke vse their owne bedde c. and let the vnmarried folke enter into marriage rather then not to containe to burne to commit fornication So that to burne not to containe and to commit fornication by Bristowes conference is all one So that hee which committeth not fornication although hee bee continually inflamed with filthie luste yet by Bristowes iudgement hee burneth not he is continent hee is a virgine Againe if not to containe and to burne be nothing else but to commit fornication it woulde followe in saint Paules wordes that men are not commaunded to marrie before they haue made triall of their incontinence by committing fornication which seeing it is horrible absurditie it followeth that the Apostle to preuent fornication exhorting men to marrie which containe not seeing it is better to marrie then to burne vnderstandeth incontinence and burning for an inflaÌ„mation of lust without fornication or actuall filthinesse committed But whatsoeuer saint Paul speaketh of marriage of them that doe not containe hee meaneth it of such as haue made no vowe to liue vnmarried For of those that haue vowed his sentence is saith Bristowe that they incurre damnation if they marrie because they haue broken their first faith 1. Tim. which faith with S. Augustine hee vnderstandeth for their last vowe of widowhood notwithstaÌ„ding that I shewed both by conference in the same chapter by the title of first and by the name of faith that it cannot properly bee so taken but for the faith of Christianitie euen as he saith if any prouide not for his family he hath denied the faith Where I finde the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the scripture is neuer vsed for a vowe or promise made to God Bristowe aunswereth why doe not you say your selfe that both there once afore in the same chapt it is vsed for the vow or promise made in baptisme no sir. I neuer said it I said that the first faith may aptly be taken for the faith of baptisme and Christianitie except you wil say that the faith of Christianitie embraced by baptisme is nothing else but a vowe or promise made to God Againe can you remember neuer a place saith he where the faith of god is the promise of God looke Rom. 3. yea sir I remember 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taken for the trueth of Gods promise but I finde not yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taken for the vowe or promise made to God which because you your selfe so great and daily a conferrer of scriptures coulde not finde you curâ—olled my saying repeating my wordes for a vowe or promise and leauing out that I added made to God The Latine phrase of the faith or promise of marriage vsed by Saint Augustine and other Latine writers aunswereth not to my demaunde of the vse of the greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ‑ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the scriptures which if the Apostle had taken for the promise of widowhood made in their admission it is more like he woulde haue called it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their former faith and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their first faith Againe the conference whiche Bristowe vrgeth of them that are alreadie turned back after Satan most aptely agreeth to theÌ„ that had forsaken not onely their widowhood but also their Christianitie Loe saith Bristowe your selfe are compelled to graunt that which you denyed to wit that they shall be damned because they forsake widowhoode and how forsake they widowhoode but by marrying ergo Saint Paul saith they shall be damned for marrying so inuincible is the texte in our exposition Fulke it goeth harde with you And all this because I saide such wanton young huswiues proceede so farre that at length they forsake widowhood Christianitie and al. Saide I onely because they forsake widowhoode No but because they waxe wanton against Christ because they haue forsaken the first faith which is Christianity and not only because they haue married and giuen ouer theyr widowhoode whereof whether there were a vowe or no it is not proued Although it be probable there was a promise made vnto the Church because such poore widowes susteined of the Churches almes were imployed to be helpers 1. Cor. 12. in the office of Deacons Rom. 16. Considering that it was not sufficient for the sicke and impotent that men should be collectors and distributers of the almes but womeÌ„ also were necessary for diuers seruices about them which were not conuenient for men to exercise But if I should graunt vnto you that the first faith here signifieth the last vowe of widowhoode yet it foloweth not of this place that all that haue married after rashe vowes made to the contrary are damned For Saint Paule speaketh not of them that were constreined by the necessity of incontinencie which it is not euery mans gift to auoyde to flye to the generall remedy appoynted by God for auoyding of fornication that euery man should haue his wife and euery woman should haue her husband without any exception but only of them he speaketh that waxed wanton against Christ which being liuing to the worlde were dead to God What is this against them which ignorantly rashly or constrainedly made a vowe to performe that which they were not able namely continence or chastity without mariage the
their subtile craftie rash craze the concord of the bishops which cleueth together But there to plead their cause wher both they may haue accusers witnesses of their crime except to a fewe desperate men castawayes the authoritie of the bishops placed in Africa seemeth to be lesse which haue alreadie iudged of them by the weight of their iudgement condemned their conscience bounde with the snares of many trespasses Their cause already hath beene heard the sentence is alreadie pronounced of them neither is it congruent to the censure of priests to be reprehended by Leuits of mouable inconstant minde c. You see that Cyprian meant nothing lesse than to giue Cornelius bishop of Rome authoritie to reuerse the sentence of the bishops of Africa whose authoritie he iudged to be nothing lesse then the bishops of Rome or other places Moreouer Bristow saith that Cyprian doth also note in S. Stephan some little negligence but much more wilful obreption in those two lapsed bishops of Spaine Basilides Martialis who had concealed from him the trueth that in their supplication they should haue expressed which because they did not he saith well that their restitution by the Pope could not stand them in steed against their former deposition by the bishopâ— of their owne prouince This which so plainly maketh for the Popes authoritit saveth Bristowe you are so blinde to bring against it Not so blinde but I can see that you acknowledge 〈…〉 e Pope iâ—â—udgement of bynding and loosing may 〈…〉 re But what I pray you maketh this for the Pope you 〈…〉 eane perhaps that Cyprian doeth graunt by impliâ—ation if the foresaide errour had not deceiued Stephaâ—â—s he had full authoritie to haue restored those two 〈◊〉 apsed bishops But Cyprian sayeth not so you hearde â—efore what his iudgement was of them that were condemned in one Prouince that their sentence could not â—e reuersed in another but if they woulde returne to the Church they should there be receiued vppon their â—epentance where they were first condemned and in this 4. Epistle he sayeth Quare etsi c. wherefore although some of our fellowe bishops there haue been moste welbeloued brethren which thinke the diuine discipline is to be neglected and doe rashly communicate with Basilides and Martialis this thing ought not to trouble our faith You see that he reproueth Stephanus and such as tooke his parte for neglect of diuine discipline in communicating with those heretikes which were lawfully condemned in their owne prouince and therefore coulde not by any other bee restored As concerning the Councels of Africa Mileuis sayeth Bristowe the question between them and those other fiue Popes was not about the matters of the vniuersall church as for example matters of faith No was is not the Popes authoritie of you counted a matter of faith and of the vniuersall church although they agreed in all other matters But Bristow shameth not to say it was not about the Popes authoritie in receiuing of bishops appeales but what order the Nicene Councel had taken therein As though that counterfeit Canon was not alledged to iustifie the Popes authoritie in receiuing such appeales But there are examples you saye of appeales and namely of the Patriarkes of Alexandria and Constantinople but of which Patriarks to whom you shewe not yea S. Augustine him selfe you say vseth it as a plea That Cecilianus was readie to pleade his cause before other churches out of Africa Ep. 162. This prooueth not that Cecilianus although trusting in the innoceÌ„cy of his cause refused no indifferent iudges yet that he appealed to the Church of Rome and least of all to the singular iudgment of the Bishop of Rome but to all other churches And the appeales that were made in his cause were made to the Emperour and from the Bishop of Rome being once delegate of the Emperour to heare his cause with other Bishops vnto him the seconde time who gaue aliud uidicium Arelatense aliorum scilicet Episcoporum c. an other iudgement of A relate of other Bishops as it is plaine in the same Epistle But such appeales were lawfull saith Bristow by the councell Sardicense cap. 7. in the same Carthage councell cap. 3. whose authoritie none of those Africane Bishops did denie for the same Bishops were of it that were of the Nicene and Sainct Augustine chap. 7. did expresly admitte in the Canon of the inferiori appealing from their ownâ— Bishops In deede in the 3. chap. of the 6. Councell of Carthage that forged Canon of Bishops appeales was aledged which is nowe read for the 7. Canon of the Sardicense councell but it was alledged as a canon of the Nicene Councell and if it had beene a true canon of Sardica Councell why did not those Bishops alledge it as a Canon of Sardica as well as the other Canon of the inferiors appealing from their owne Bishop vnto the Bishops next adioyning seeing the Bishops of Africa and S. Augustine himselfe were so ready to yeelde to the authoritie of the Councell of Sardica Therefore it appeareth that the Canon of bishops appeales to Rome being first forged as a Canon of the Nicene Councell when it could not find any setling there was afterwarde foysted in the Sardicen Councell Thirdly saith Bristow these appeales were lawfull by the Nicene Councell also wherevppon you say verie insolently trusting ouermuch your lying LutheraÌ„ frinds the Magdeburgiens that S. Augustine his fellowes tooke those Popes with plaine forgery of the Canons of Nice and fetched them ouer the coles meetely wel for it Bristow will still defend that forged Canon for other there is none in the Nicen councell that alloweth such appeales As for the Magdeburgiens I neuer read theÌ„ but the report of the councels gathered by Peter Crab I haue read 〈◊〉 dosen yeares before I wrote against Allen. And in the end of the African Councel I read this Epistle of the councell to Celestinus byshop of the citie of Rome Domino dilectissimo honorabili fratri Celestino c. To our most welbeloued lord honorable brother Celestinus We Aurelius Palatinus Antonius Tutus Seruus dei Terentius Fortunatus Martinus Ianuarius Optatus Celticius Donatus Theasius Vincentius Fortunatianus and the rest which were present in the vniuersal AfricaÌ„ councel of Carthage We wold haue wished if as thy holynes hath insinuated by letters sent by our fellow elder Leo that you reioyced of the comming of Appiarius so we also might send with gladnes these writings of his purgation Verily both our and your chearfulnes should be now more certaine neither might seeme too much hasted and ouer-speedy which as yet had gon before aswell of one to bee heard as of one that is alredy heard Surely when our ho ly brother and fellow bishop Faustinus came vnto vs we gathered a Councell and beleeued that he was therfore sent with him that as by his helpe he had beene before restored to the Eldership so
found in them 1. Tim. 3. Now commeth Bristowe to answere such things as I obiect out of Augustine against vnwritten traditions which he digesteth into three sorts The first are quotations of 11. or 12. places in which he preferreth the autority of the canonicall Scripture before all writinges of Catholike Doctours of Bishops of Councels before all customes and traditions But this Bristow denieth to be the question but whether nothing but Scripture be of authoritie I aunswere those places proue that nothing is of infallible veritie but the scriptures therfore they proue that they only are of irrefragable authoritie The second sorte of places are about this question who hath the true Church Of which question I affirme that S. Augustine would haue the Church sought only in the Scriptures And heâ—e he biddeth me reade his first demande likewise I wil send him to mine answer vnto the same At length he confesseth that Augustine is content in that question to set aside all other authorities to trie it by the Scriptures But that nothing els is good authoritie in that question that he neuer sayeth Neither doe we say it or refuse any authoritie that is agreeable to the Scriptures And as that one question which was betweene S. Augustine and the Donatistes was determinable by the onely authorititie of Scriptures so are all questions that are betweene the Church of all times and all heretikes The Donatistes helde that the Church was perished out of all partes of the world except Affrica as the Papistes holde that it is perished out of all partes except a peece of Europa Saint Augustine by the Scripture proueth the continuance in the Churche dispersed ouer all the worlde and that we holde against the Romishe synagogue of Popish Donatistes who haue separated them selues from the Catholike Church into the function of an Italian Priest as the other did of an Affrican But Bristowe sayeth I am as blinde as a beetle in saying that the Papistes did separate themselues from our Church seeing it is certain that Luther did separate him selfe from the Popish Church The like might be said to all them that forsoke the fellowship of any heretikes to come vnto the Churche of God But Bristow is as madde as a marche Hare that bragging so much of the title of the church he is driuen to trie it only by the Scriptures as Augustine calleth vpon the Donatists The other places which I aledge out of Aug saith Bristowe are about al questions with heretikes whatsoeuer As that he would oppresse the Arrian Maximinus with the authoritie of the Nicene councel Lib. 3. Cap. 14. Bristowe asketh whether he might not presse them with the authoritie thereof as he doth the Donatistes But aske Augustine him selfe who saith he ought not in that case that he charged the Donatistes which it was by their own concession because they allowed it But he saith in the same place the Fathers of the Nicene councell ratified Homousion that is equalitie of the sonne with the father Veritatis autoritate autoritatis veritate by authoritie of trueth and by trueth of authoritie This truth of authoritie Bristowe will haue to be the authoritie of the Nicene councell as though the councel could not erre but then what needed the authoritie of trueth In deede where the councel decreeth with the trueth it is the trueth of authoritie for other authoritie a Councell hath not but of trueth to declare trueth and not to make trueth for if it declare errour as the councell of Arimine did it hath no trueth of authoritie because it hath no authoritie of trueth Moreouer Bristow saith I translate falsely these wordes Nec ego huius autoritate nec tuillius detineris Neither am I bounden to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other Whereas it should be Neither doth the authoritie of the one hold me nor of the other holde thee There is greate difference betweene beeing holden and beeing bound To the bare authoritie of the councell of Nice Maximinus was no more bounden then Augustine to the bare authoritie of Ariminum It was the trueth of Nice that the Arrian was bounde vnto and the falshod of Ariminum that Augustine was not holden with vs. But after the example of Augustine saith Bristowe we will not alledge the councell of Trent as our proper witnesses to our side but the authoritie of Scriptures common to both Witnesse hereof Bristowes motiues where he would ouerthrowe vs by the bare name of Catholike and heretike c. Againe he saith that we make challenge of 600. yeares also And what then Witnesses of trueth we take wheresoeuer they be but authoritie of trueth onely out of the Scriptures Where I said that Augustine setting all other persuasions aside prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith and doctrine of the Churche Bristowe answereth Howe true that is appeareth in the same booke De Vnitate Eccle. which you cite For when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he saith expressely that to be inough also for all other questions Sufficit nobis It is inough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed too by most manifest testimonies of the holy and Canonicall Scriptures De Vnit Eccle. Cap. 19. Doth he say expressely it is inough for all other questions I must needes say expressely you lie For the onely question being how the Donatistes should be receiued if they would come to the Catholike Church as though they were the true Church because baptisme giuen among them was not repeated in the Catholike Church Augustine after much concertation saith Quapropter cum dicatur haereticis c. Wherfore seeing it is said to the heretiks Rightousnes is wanting to you which without charitie and the bonde of peace no man can haue seeing they theÌ„selues confesse that many haue baptisme which haue not righteousnesse and if they would not confesse it the holy Scripture conuinceth them I maruell howe they thinke when we wil not baptise them again hauing not their own but the baptisme of Christ that we do so as though we iudged nothing to be now wanting to theÌ„ that because baptisme is not giuen to them in the Catholike Church which they are founde to haue already they thinke they receiue nothing there where they receiue that without which that which they haue auaileth them to their destruction and not to their saluation Which if they wil not vnderstand it is sufficient for vs that we holde that Church which is shewed forth by most manifest testimonies of the holy and canonical Scriptures Where he speaketh not of the authortie of the Church to determine questions but sheweth it is sufficieÌ„t to haue proued by the Scriptures that they are the true Church although the Heretikes will not vnderstand how baptisme being ministred out of the Church hath not effect but in the true Church for if it be manifest by the Scriptures that Augustine holdeth the true Church that last question
the Church in the wildernes as though we were forbidden to seeâ—e her or else to acknowledge her to be where somtime she shold be In the 4 demand of rising after he would maintaine 2 arguments the first is this Our first auctors can not be named Ergo they were none but the Apostles This argument hath no consequens and yet the antecedent iâ— false For of many of your errors we name the auctors and of praier for the dead Montanus the heretike vntill you can name vs a Catholique that helde it which was more auncient then he and although you would cleare your selues of theft because you haue not stollen that article but receiued it yet seeing it came first from a theefe your possession can not be iust and therefore ye must restore it to the heathen from whence Montanus stoale it Where I brought example of the heretikes called Acephali and diuerse other Pur. 388. to proue that the first auctor of euery heresie can not be named Bristow saith that he findeth his name to haue ben Seuerus that they were but a peece of Eutyches as the Puritanes are of Caluin But when writers dout the common voice gaue them their name because their bead was not knowen the coniâ—cture of a name will not serue the turne If they had added nothing to Eutyches they should haue bene called Eutychians as for the cauill of Caluine and the Puritanes deserueth none aunswere More like are the friers obseruants and general Franciscanes to those headlesse heretikes the Eutychians But Bristowe being driuen from the auctor falleth to the beginning of an heresie which being shewed to haue bene later then Christ and his Apostles is indeede an vndoubted argument to reproue an heresie And the begining saith he is shewed by this that the primitiue name of ChristiaÌ„s would not serue them but they must haue new names to be called by By this demonstratine Logike none shill so â—ptly be proued heretikes as Monkes Friers Nunnes c who disdaining the primitiue name of Christians haue chosen to themselues newe names as Benedictines Franciscanes Iesuites c. Whereas the olde heretikes did not willingly chuse the names that they were called by but by like names reproched the true Catholikes which argueth that the new name except it be chosen by them â—elues is no good argument to conuince heretikes Bris. asketh if the Papists do acknowlege any founders of their faith but the Apostles of Christ yea verily the Pope the popish councel which haue giuen you new articles of faith that the Apostles neuer taught but yâ— contrary as transubstantiation coÌ„munion vnder one kind c. That Teâ—tul other latter writers do father praier for the dead vpon traditioÌ„ of the Apostles it is no warrant for vs seeing the doctrine therof is not found in all the holy canonicall scriptures but is contrary to the same Montanus is found to be the first that since Christ taught praier for the dead That transubstaÌ„tiation was lately decreed he answereth it was the name not the thing as Homousion was alwaies beleued euen before the Nicen Councell which first receiued that name A fit coÌ„parison but how can Brist say that traÌ„substaÌ„tiation was alwais beleued when the coÌ„mon opinioÌ„ almost of al the scholemen is that before the determination of the Laterane councel it was no heresie to hold impuratioÌ„ or adnihilation of the Elements and he himself confessed in the last Chapter that perfect transubstantiation was not decreed before the last Tridentine session The second argument is this your first auctors can be named after the beginning of the Churches rising with their newe opinions Ergo their opnions were heresies c. To this argument I answer denying the antecedent for we hold no new opinion but the foundation of the Prophetes and Apostles Iesus Christ beeing the head corner stone Where I take exceptions to Allens rule Pur. 413 Bristow expoundeth his meaning to be of such an opinion as is contrary to the truth first preached by the Apostles and vpon his exposition not necessary vpon Allens wordes chargeth me with nugation or triseling in adding mine exception which is the same with his exposition I pray the reader vouchsafe to peruse the place and see if there be any droppe of shamefast bloud left in this blundering papist which blusheth not to scoffe at me for triselings when he doth nothing but cauil and trifle himself and that without al wit or reason truth or likelihoode In the 5. demand of contradiction of heresies in their first arising where I had shewed how some fewe plausible errors of praier for the dead to the dead Ar. 39 by litle and litle preuailed without any great contradiction mentioned in Histories Bristowe saith It is a fonde parte to tell why and how a thing was done which was neuer done For the Scripture Es. 62. and August Ep. 119. Cap. 19. affirme that there ne should be ne was any such silence in the true pastors c. I answere both the Scripture and the Doctor speake of silence which may bring present ouerthrowe of the Citie or damnation of the Citizens Otherwise the true pastors in Saint Augustines time not only in silence passed but by speache and writing allowed the error of communicating of infants and the necessity thereof as I haue shewed before And seeing prayer for the deade and to the deade by the holy Scriptures are conuinced to be errors it can be no iustifying of them to say no man preached against them at their first rising And seeing the Histories of the auncient time are very fewe and short it is more boldlie affirmed then soundly proued that no man preached against them Epiphanius doth not tell who preached against euery heresie at the first arising thereof And euen some of Origens heresies of which Bristowe taketh example slept almost 200. yeares in his bookes before they were openly contradicted in the daies of Hieronyme Ruffine and Augustine Touching that I alledge of the mystery of iniquity working in the Apostles time 2. Thess. 2. Bristowe chargeth me to say that the Church of Christ wrought this mystery of iniquity wherein he doth me open iniury for I knowe it was Satan which wrought it but yet in the Church where Antichrist should sitte and not without it He asketh whether my text say There was no preaching against it I answere my text saith it was a mystery not reuealed and therefore could not at the first be openly preached against But Antichrist being openly shewed was preached against by the two witnesses Apoc. 11. although he were not espied in the first mystery of iniquity yea when he was yet in fashioning he was preached against by Irenaeus Pollycrates and others Ar. 36. and in this book Cap. 9. The case of Cyprian and the Affricanes being true pastors and yet contradicting the truth and other true pastors denying that such as were baptised by heretikes were to be rebaptised I haue clearely
with his censure was countermanded by many Bishops 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 They did countermaund him or gaue him contrarie commaundement to set his minde on things pertaining to peace and vnitie and loue of his neighbour Irenaeus in his Epistle to Victor shewing that Polycarpus could not be persuaded by Anicetus Bishop of Rome in some small things wherein they differed declared that it was not then of Polycarpus or him selfe otherwise thought but that the Bishop of Rome might erre The other example I brought was of Stephanus Bishop of Rome misliked by Dionysius Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 2. 3. 4. 5 c. sharply reproued by Cyprian accusing him of presumption and contumacie Epist. ad Pomp. because he threatened excommunication to Hilenus and Firmilianus and almost all the Churches of Asia thinking that such as were baptized by heretikes should be baptized againe Also Cyprian in his Epist. ad Quirinum saying that Peter himselfe was not so arrogant nor so presumptuous that he would say he held the primacie and that other men should obey him as his inferiors Bristowe saith none of these denied the primacie of Peter I say they al denied the primacie of autoritie although Cyprian in the same place saith For neither Peter whom our lord chose first which argueth no primacie but of order vpō whom he builded his Church when Paule did afterward dissent from him about circumcision did boast him self or take vpon him any thing insolently or arrogantly that he should say he held the primacie and that he ought rather to be obeyed of newe scholers and aftercommers Here you see it had bene in Cyprians iudgement a point of insolencie and arrogancie in Peter if he had challenged the primacie of authoritie and certaintie of trueth against al men But Bristowe saith when there was no remedie but they must yeeld or be Schismatikes because Stephanus would no longer tolerate them they did like Catholike men for all their Councels conforme their newe practise to the old custome and quoteth August de bapt cont Donat. lib. 5. cap. 23. 25. where there is no such matter also he referreth vs to his fift Demaund where he citeth Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 2. 3. 4. 5. but neither is it there testified Only cap. 6. Dionysius chaungeth his iudgement being admonished in a vision and that he had learned that not nowe onely but of olde time both in Aphrica and other places the trueth was receiued c. but of any constraint for feare of being Schismatikes if they dissented from the bishop of Rome there is no word The place of Hierome ad Euagrium which I cited Pur. 374. defending a custome of the whole Church against a custome of the Church of Rome Bristowe saith doth not proue a Church a rule of trueth and Christianitie without the bishop and Church of Rome because Hierome saith as also there I cite Nec altera c. we must not thinke that there is one Church of the citie of Rome and an other of all the world c. By which wordes he sheweth that the Church of Rome if she will be a member of the Catholike Church must conforme her selfe to the Church of all the world and not the Church of all the world conforme her selfe to the Church of Rome Where I say we beleeue the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour on earth but Christ vnto whome al power is giuen in heauen and earth Bristowe obiecteth suppose that one Christian King or Emperour should reigne sometime as farre as the Church reacheth To this impossible supposition I aunswere that one King should haue no more authoritie than euerie King hath nowe But Bristowe obiecteth that Kings and Queenes be no more named among S. Paules officers c. Ephes. 4. 1. Cor. 12. and therefore as a Puritane belike I would pull them downe In the motiue of Apes he discharged me from being a Puritane by his censure but now he burdeneth me to be a Puritane so farre that I should also be a traitour as he and all his fellowes are To his wise obiection I aunswere that as Kings and Queenes are not named among Saint Paules officers so they are no Ecclesiasticall but ciuill Magistrates and the Church may be without them as it was many hundreth yeares Yet when Kings and Queenes are Christians they haue chiefe authoritie ouer persons and in causes Ecclesiasticall as farre as the godlie Kings of Israel and Iuda had Dauid Solomon Iehosophat Ezechias Iosias c. But Christ professing that all power is giuen him Matthew 28. signifieth that with good authoritie he might commit what authoritie he would and therefore biddeth all his Apostles goe teach and baptize◠and to one of them singularly feede my lambes and my sheepe No maruel though my ignorance in the scriptures be often reproued when such learned conclusions come from Bristowe Christ saide to one feede my lambes and sheepe therefore he saide it singularly and he hath vniuersall charge and all his successors to But for the Popes supremacie the Apostle saith expresly 1. Cor. 12. the heade vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie to me But who taught you to foyst in your owne glosse vnder Christ when the Apostle speaketh of the members of a naturall bodie wherevnto euerie seueral cōgregation and the whole church also is like If you seeke the head of euery seuerall congregation you must looke to the chiefe gouernours thereof but if you seeke the head of the whole Church the scripture teacheth but one which is Christ for one head vnder another in one whole body is monstrous But you thinke perhaps Christ as he is head of his Church may say to the feete he hath no neede of them and therefore it must be vnderstoode of an head vnder Christ but then you must remember that although Christ be most perfect in him selfe yet as he vouchsafeth to take vpon him this office to be head of the Church he is not perfect without al his members which is the singular comfort of Gods children Ephe. 1. ver last But Saint Paule Ephe. 4. as Bristowe saith vnder the name of the Apostles includeth the successors of the Apostle S. Peter whose see for that cause is called the Apostolike see in singular maner and their decrees and actes esteemed of Apostolike authoritie in al antiquitie This cause is a shameles and senseles lie for no antiquitie for 600. yeares after Christ so esteemed the see or the decrees therof Again what reason is it that Peters successors should be included more thē the successors of the other Apostles seeing this souereigntie of Peter is not grounded vpon his Apostleship but vpon his Bishoplike office as Sander maintaineth As for the principalitie of Apostleship principalitie of the Apostles chaire which he quoteth out of August de bapt Cont. Don. li. 2. ca. 1. epi. 162. haue often bene shewed to be vnsufficient to make euery one of Peters successors equal with Peter in
teaching and writing against it The 10 The true catholike Church hath alwaies resisted all false opinions contrarie to the word of God as her dewty was and fought against them and obteined the victorie and triumphed ouer them Ar. 11. Contra In those antient times they of the true Church did not alwaies weigh what was most agreeable to the word of God but if heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would drawe it into vse So they tooke into the Church of Christ many abuses and corruptions vntill at the length An. 607. the religion of the papists preuailed And since that time that diuelish heresie hath alwaies increased in error vntill the yeare 1414. Pur. 419. Ar. 35. 36. The former proposition is directly spoken and meant by me of heresies against the truth and other articles of faith That which is mine in the latter patchery and falsification is spoken of small errors and idle ceremonies The 11 That blasphemous heresie of purgatorie which is most blasphemous against Christ against the blood of Christ against his merites and satisfaction for our sinnes and against Gods vnspeakable mercies and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all them that beleeue it nothing conuenient for the disciples and members of Christ. No suffrages were made for the dead by the Apostles or their lawfull successors To the reader Pur. 26. 166 184. 177. 269. 362. 363. 419. 186. Contrà here cap. 3. he confesseth that the fathers held it and yet notwithstanding that they were members of the true Church cap. 2. and held the foundation of Iesus Christ cap. 5. all the substance of true doctrine And also that they did inuocate Saintes denying in other places that such be true Christians The like of fasting Pur. â—93 405. I neuer confessed those godly fathers to hold purgatorie in such blasphemous sense as the papistes doe nor yet prayer for the dead or inuocation of Saintes By fasting I knowe not what he meaneth for in the page whereto he sendeth me 141. is no such matter spoken of nor fasting once named 12 The opinion of Purgatorie and satisfaction of sinnes after this life is the verie doctrine of licentiousnesse to maintaine wicked men in their presumptuousnesse For what hast will they make to amendment and newenesse of life when they haue hope of release after their death Pur. 51. 26. 166. 177. 184. Contra As Saint Augustine saith it is but for small faultes or as M. Allen saith for great faultes that by penance are made small And is God such a mercifull father to punishe small faultes so extremely in his children whom he pardoneth of all their great and heinous sinnes Pur. 448. The latter part of this preteÌ„sed coÌ„tradictoÌ„ is not mine but Allens assertion which I rehearse to shew the absurditie of his expositioÌ„ of the happy rest promised Apo. 13. 13 How long soeuer the true Church were hidden whether iâ— were a 1000. years or 2000. yeares this is certaine that out of this Church none could be saued Ar. 73. Contra here cap. 5. he counteth it ynough if the faith of their saluation were in the onely foundation Iesus Christ and that in such a sense as agreeth to men indeed out of the Church The whole faith of their saluation is in the onely foundation Iesus Christ in such such sense as I speake cannot be out of the Church 14 They which hold the foundation that is Christ to wit the Article of Iustification by the onely mercy of God and of the onely sonne of God are doubtlesse members of the true Church of Christ. Ar. 61. â—4 Pur. 2â—8 Contra here cap. 10. where he saith that the Anabaptists are abhominable heretikes and that they are not ProtestaÌ„ts who yet do hold that article iâ—mp as the ProtestaÌ„ts do It is a loudly and neuer saide of me that the Anabaptists do hold that article iump as the protestants 15 A generall departing from the faith was foreshewed and it was fulfilled An. 607. Contra The Church was neuer lost neither when the departing was generall but hidden in the wildernesse that is from the eyes of the world She is to this day preserued and shal be to the worlds end Christ hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth he hath euer beene a head without a body Ar. 36. 38. Ar. 71. 78. 79. 80. The generall departing from the faith was not of all persons but of most in all nations and therefore the Church neuer failed 16 The primitiue Church of the Apostles hath continued vnto this day by succession not of persons and places but of the doctrine faith and trueth These verte wordes conteine a manifest contradiction For how can a Church or doctrine faith and trueth continue but in persons and places in so much that he saith also We doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie pointes of Christian Doctrine Ar. 2. 96. 26. 27. These wordes conteine no contradiction For the Church may continewe in persons and places although not by continual succession of persons in the same places Bristow forgetteth his rules of contradiction opposing coÌ„tinuance by succession of persons and places to continuance in persons and places 17 The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast inseparable from Christ her head though the blinde world when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adultresse Contra in the same place The true Church vnder the Emperours Constantinus Constans and Valens was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And in another place The visible Church may become an adultresse and be diuorsed from Christ. And so is that faithfull Church of Rome become an harlâ—â— This contradiction is made vp with a falsification of my wordes The true Church vnder the Emperours Constantius c. For I say not the true Church but speake generally of the Church which suffered persecution vntill CoÌ„stantine which was the visible Church vnder which name many heretikes were persecuted Visible Church is not alwaies the true Church The 18 The true Church consisting of Gods elect and the liuely members of the body of Christ shall neuer commit such adulterie c. But the visible Church may separate her selfe from Christ. As though there were an other Church besides the visible Church and so two churches Contra Wheresoeuer the Catholike Church be in partes it is one body of Christ. There are not two Churches but one The catholike Church is alwaies inuisible the militant Church on earth which is a part thereof is to the world sometime visible and sometimes not seene of the world The 19 Anno. 607. the Church fled into the wildernes that is out of the sight and knowledg of the world there to remaine a long season where all this while God hath preserued her vntill such time as he thought good now in our dayes to bring her
of Christe heareth the voice of Christe and is ruled thereby The church of GOD is the piller and stay of truth so called because that where so euer the church is either visible or inuisible there is the trueth Saint Paule by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers howe great a burthen and charge they sustaine that the trueth of the Gospell can not be continued in the world but by their ministerie in the church of God which is the piller and stay of truth This their duetie true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth As our church is the piller and stay of trueth so is she also the house of trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ and his most holy Scripture in which this trueth is signed and testified We require you to beleeue the true Catholike church onely and immediatly againe to the contrarie We require you not to beleeue any one companie of men more than an other Ar. 82. 81. 93. 99. 62. 77. 100. 108. 62. This contradiction is easily reconciled The true Church may erre but not in any point that is necessarie to euerlasting saluation We require men to beleeue the true Catholike Church only not for the companie but for the trueth 34 The error of Purgatorie and praying for the deade is continued from a corrupt state of the church of Christe vnto a plaine departing away into the church of Antichrist Contra The tâ—ue and onely church of God is so guided by Gods spirite and directed by his word that she can not induce any damnable error to conâ—â—nâ—â— No nor suffereth any man daÌ„nably abusing her religion without open reprehension and yet Purgatorie c. came in with silence The error of praying for the dead was not damnable while it continued in the Church of Christ the Church of Antichrist by derogating full satisfaction from the bloud of Christ hath made it damnable 35 The church of Christ hath of the holie Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfets and the worde of GOD of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians We persuade vs of the authoritie of Gods booke because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it with the testimonie of the true church in all ages Ar. 5. 4. 9. Contra All other writings are in better case than the Scriptures are with you For other writings may be counted the workes of their authours without your censure the holy Scripture may not be counted the worde of God except you list so to allow it Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers The holie Scriptures with you houe not credite according to the authoritie of God the authour of them but according to your determination Pur. 219. Here is no shewe of contradiction but a wretched begging of the principle that the Popish Church is the true Church of Christ. Of such contradictions you may make not 50 but 500000. 36 Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for heretikes haue proued so in deede Ar. 65. Contra This Demaund hath a false principle that the church ought to be a Christian mans onely it is not in Doctor Allens principle stay in al troubles and tempestes The first proposition is an Ironicall imitation of Allens absurd proposition and not an absolute assertion of mine 37 And therefore the Papistes being called and counted heretikes of true Christians that is of the Protestantes without doubt are heretikes in deede Ar 65. Contra. He is a foolish Sophister that reasoneth from names to things as you doe most vainely and childishly Ar. 66. The former proposition is the conclusion which I retort vpon Allens principle that whosoeuer by true christians are called heretikes do proue so in deede 38 There is neuer heresie but there is as great doubt of the church as of the matter in question Ar. 86. Contra Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the church tooke no hold of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne confession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the church it selfe also The Donatistes challenged the church to themselues Pur. 367. Here is not so much as any shadowe of contradiction for in the heresie of the Donatists the chiefest controuersy was of the Church as for the prayer of the Church they vsed it themselues as well as the true Catholikes out of which prayer Augustine gathereth an argument against them 39 But for the chiefe pointes of christian religion and the foundation of our faith that is Reall presence c. the most approued writers are vtterly against you and therefore can not be of your church Contra But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians as it pleaseth you to call them are of one true church although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament the one assirming a Reall presence the other denying it The contradiction is easily auoided by shewing that the reall presence among a number of thinges in that place rehearsed may be one chiefe point of religion and yet not a foundation of our faith For I say the auncient fathers agree with vs in the chiefe points of religion and the foundation of our faith which seeing the Lutherans hold with vs the dissent in one chiefe point of religion can not disseuer them from the Church and yet they dissent not vnto idolatrie as the Papists doe And where Bristow slandereth mee to say that I count the errors of some of that latter sort of old fathers in honoring reliques inuocation of Saints merits traditions vnwritten verities images of the crosse to be contrary to the foundation he is able to shewe no place where I so affirme And albeit they did so earnestly maintaine some of those errors that they condemned by their priuate sensure the contrary truth for heresies yet it followeth not that they were heretikes For it is one thing to hold an error earnestly an other to holde it obstinatly so that he is condemned of his owne conscience when he will not yeeld to the manifest truth plamly proued out of the worde of God 40 We knowe that Luther did not obstinately and maliciously erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of religion Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament and differ onely in ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Ar. 10. 61. Pur. 403. Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath saide neither doe I knowe neither doe I regard let them aunswere for them selues But whereas you charge M.
Caluine c. Because I knowe not how Illyricus and such contentious persons as he expoundeth the annointing in Saint Iames but referre them to aunswere for them selues therefore I speake contrary to my selfe where I say they differ not in faith from the Lutherans 41 There is neuer heresie but there is as great doubt of the church as of the matter in question Therefore only the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Ar. 86. Contra The Church is the â—ay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it would serue you both for a sword and a bucklar The church saith it and we are the church Therefore it is true Pur. 367. It seemeth Bristowe is beside himselfe in coyning of contradictions These words The Church is the stay of truth for which he quoteth Pur. 367. are not mine in that place but his owne addition although in other sense I confesse the Church is the stay and piller of truth not that all is true which is alwaies in the Church but that truth can not be preserued on earth by the Church 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth against the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is that their heresie was contrarie to the publique praiers of the church Contra All other persuasions set aside hee prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trie the faith and doctrine of the church namely in beating downe the schisme of the Donaistes and the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason whie he argued against the Donatistes of only Scripture but against the Pelagians of the churches praiers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the church that so praied And therefore when Augustine had to doe with the Donatistes that challenged the church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures Let the readers iudge for I can not imagine where there be should be so much as the shadowe of a contradiction gathered out of these wordes except he meane that he which prouoketh onely to the scriptures may not vse an hundreth argumentes out of them yea or many persuasions beside the scriptures and yet stand onely vpon the auctority of the scriptures 43 We stand for autoritie only to the iudgemeÌ„t of the holy scriptures Pu. 432. Contra The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assuraÌ„ce of Gods spirit for the autoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true church in alages The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of God from the writings of men The primitiue churches testimonie of the word of God we allow and beleeue You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing wel prouide for the credit of your cause the discredit of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure church for the space of a hundreth yeares after Christe or something out of any Authenticall writer which liued within one hundred yeares after the Apostles age Ar. 9. 5. 10. Pur. 364. 331. Ar. 21. 39. 42. The first proposition as in the place quoted is manifest is spoken of questions of doctrine and not of our persuasion of the scriptures to be the word of God The last sentence You should bring c. being patched out of two places of my booke Pur. 364. and 331. are not contradictory to the first proposition for although we stand for auctority onely to iudgement of the holy scriptures yet we are content to giue you this aduantage against vs if you can bring any thing out of those eldest writers for Purgatory or prayer for the dead 44 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 11. declareth without colour or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the next line I knowe the Papistes will flee to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelinesse and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pur. 362. In rehearsing my wordes he leaueth out fiue lines of my saying betwene the words Couerture and The onely right c. which declare that I speake of the essâ—ntiall order of ministration against Allen which affirmeth oblation of the hoast for the quicke and the dead both generally and particularly and a solemne prayer for all departed in Christ to be necessary parts of the order of ministration of that Sacrament 45 The olde Doctors neuer heard Purgatorie named nor praier for the deade Pur. 438. Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented And long afore that also Montanus had in all points the opinioÌ„ of the Papists c. Here cap 3 pag 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blinde error without a head Pur. 356. My wordes are of the heresie of Purgatory and my meaning of those olde Doctors in comparison of whom Saint Augustine is but a punie being younger almost by 300. yeares in whose time although the name of Purgatory were inueâ—ted yet the heresie was elder in Montanus How prayer for the deade came into the Church it was vncertaine in Chrysostomes time and therefore I say it was a blinde error without a heade 46 In Saint Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Pur. 54. Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time Pur. 161. And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14 saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of praiers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundationlong afore Christes time It were a strange contradiction that could bee picked out of these two allegories laying the foundation and rifely budding seeing the foundation is the beginning of a building and budding is the first towardnesse of fruite As for the pedigree is not to the last generation as Bristow saith layed in Saint Augustines time but from the first auctor howe it was continued vnto Saint Augustines time since which there haue beene many dissents before popish Purgatory were throughly shaped and brought forth 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God exceedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 242. 243. Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men giue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne than that almes which other men giue for them howbeit also such almes are auaileable for the dead he saith Pur. 236. 237. That which Chrysostome speaketh of litle helpe wil not serue Allen to proue that almes shall moue GOD exceedingly to mercy 48 The auncient Doctors did holde the foundation Contra cap. 4 pag. 28. He
into That What say you Sander hath the Greeke article such strength alwayes If you say so you wil be thought to be a simple Grecian If only sometimes you must shewe better reason then you do why it hath such strength heere or els the Englishe translation is good inough For by the outwarde signe which is the partaking of one bread the Apostle proueth the spirituall coniunction of all the faithfull in one body and vseth not the name of bread siguratiuely for that which Christ calleth the bread of life c. And vnto this translation agreeth S. Ambrose in 1. Cor. 11. saying The gift that is offered perteyneth to al the people quia in vno pane omnes significantur per id quod enim vnum simus de vno pane nos omnes sumere oportet because in one bread they are all signified for in that we are one we ought to receiue all of one bread Of the same iudgment is Hierom vpon the very place saying Omnes quidem de vno pane de vno calice participamus We all partake of one bread of one cup. The like is Chrysost. all the old writers in a maner You see what shamelesse cauilling racking he vseth to make a shewe of corruption in the English Bible against which his malice is so great that he chargeth not the translators but the English Bible to haue turned to haue falsified to haue corrupted as though that if there were any iust fault to be founde in the translation the English Bible should beare the blame for it and be despised of all English men God be thanked that although it may not be denyed but some faultes haue and may escape the best translations yet the translators haue a cleere conscience from falsifying and corrupting and the faultes are not so great that any pernitious errour may be grounded on them nor so many by a thousand partes as are in that Latine translation which the Papistes admit as onely Catholike authenticall CAP. III. The state of the question betweene the Lutherans Zuinglians Caluiniâ—â—es Catholikes concerning the Sacrament of the altar This Chapter containeth no proofe of any thing but onely setteth downe the bare assertions of Sander vpon euery matter which if they be false it shall be as easy for me to deny as for him to affirme them referring the tryall of euery cause as he doth vnto the treatise folowing First it is false which he affirmeth that from the beginning of the Christian Church vnto the yere of our Lord 1517. All the Church both Greeke and Latine openly professed the carnall presence of Christes body and blood vnder the formes of bread and wine For the Greek church neuer receiued transubstantiation nor yet taught so grossely of the real presence as the Papists nor held the same opinion of consecration which the papists doe For after the wordes of Christ vttered in their liturgye they pray thus vnto God Fac panem quidem hunc honorabile corpus Christi tui quod autem in calice est honorabilem sang 〈…〉 Christi tui ea sancto tuo spiritu transmutante And make this breade the honorable body of thy Christe and that which is in the cuppe the honorable bloud of thy Christe thy holy spirite changing them This was obiected vnto them in the late Councell of Florence It is also false that he sayeth no man in open pulpet with the auctority or toleration of any spirituall pastor did preach the contrary for Wickleef whom he nameth a corner whisperer in open pulpet preached the same as his homilies remayning in writing are a playne testimonye as in Hom. 5. Sept. quad in 6. Ioan. Here it is needfull for men to wite that there ben two manner of meates ghostly and bodily but bodily is well knowne But nede were here to knowe how men should ghostlye eate Christ. For no man that hath witte dreadeth that Christ speaketh not here of bodily eating and drinking of his flesh and his blode For els no man should be saued for no man is an etene to seede him thus bodily of Christ and therefore it were to witte how men should ghostly feede them thus For Christ telleth in his words how men should eate him ghostly and to this wite saith Christ here that the wordes that he speaketh to them be spirite and life for such is witte of his wordes These wordes in their owne kinde ben such as were his other wordes but wite of these wordes there is spiritual and mannes life Also Christ saieth there soothly that each man that shall be saued shal bee fed of Christ thus But this may not be vnderstonden of fleshly food of Christs body And so it mote be vnderstonden algatys of gostly foode for of bodily foode of Christ may not two be fed together and so Christ speaketh of ghostly food by which many bee fed farre and neere Also the sermon of Aelsriâ— in the Saxon tongue apoynted to be sayed in all churches of England teacheth the same doctrine But I breake promise to stand in conâ—â—tation of so impudent lyes And where he sayth a beleeâ—e which had continued 600. yeares could not haue bene sodenly changed it is very true for the doctrine of Antichrist concerning the carnal presence was not come vnto full ripenes before the Councell of Laterane which was more then 600. yeres after the first age of 600. yeres And although the efficacy of error preuayled by Gods iust iudgment ouer a great part of the world yet had Christ alwayes his two witnesses to protest against it as Berengarius Scotus Waldo Henâ—icus de Gauduno Wickliefe c. which although they were condemned by Antichrist for heretikes yet seing they taught nothing but the ancient Catholike faith of the primitiue church grounded on gods worde their condemnation in an hundreth councels can be no preiudice to the trueth The meane that maketh present that blessed body sayeth Sander is transubstantiation which being made present thereby who can deny but that it is a sacrifice aboue all other external kindes of worshipping syth at the time of the consecration it is giuen for vs vnbloodily as the wordes of Christ sound Luke 22. which is geuen for you But seing S. Paule in exposition of the same wordes sayth which is broken for you who is either so ignorant or so blasphemous to deny that the giuing in S. Luke is to be referred vnto his death and bloudy sacrifice which was his only sacrifice of himself offered once for all Agayne when al the three Euangelists speaking of the sacrament of his bloud saye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is shed for many and for you sith at the time of the consecration it is shed for vs as well as his body is giuen for vs who is so shameles to saye that it is giuen for vs vnbloudily iny e sacrament Or if the word of shedding being of the preâ—â—nt temps or preterimperfect temps must be referred to the
his life for lacke of good argumentes if he escape hanging drawing and quartering for treason Except he thinke there be any children among vs brought vp in their Catechisme that bee so ignorant to thinke the wordes of Christ intending to worke a particular miracle be signes Sacraments in the same nature that bread wine is being apointed by him to be an ordinary pledg assurance of his grace vnto his whole church Againe we deny that the wordes of Christ are the Sacrament but wee say with Augustine Accedat verbum ad elementum Let the worde come to the element and then it is made a Sacrament Last of all concerning the trueth of Christes wordes This is my bodie This cuppe is the Newe testament c. wee nothing doubt but that grace in Gods elect worketh that which the wordes soundeth according to the true meaning of them But if Sander could haue made his matter good hee should haue reasoned of the water of baptism which is a signe of regeneration and if he could proue that the water in baptisme is not water but regeneration in deede because it is a token of regeneration he should haue reasoned somewhat like for his life But that which he saith of doing or making he would not haue it wrested to the meere doctrine of Christ which he spake doing or making nothing for therein he vsed parables but Christ saith he did rather then taught in his supper and therefore his wordes must be vnderstood euen as they sound If this rule be true Christ dranke and gaue wine at his supper which is the fruite of the vine according to the sounde of the wordes and therefore no transubstantiation in the cuppe But where he saith that Christ did rather then taught at his supper he would haue vs thinke belike that Christ did celebrate his supper like the Popish Masse in which is much adoe no teaching at all But beside that all the three Euangelists do set forth vnto vs the summe of his doctrine S. Iohn doeth in foure Chapters from the 13. to the 18. describe at large that he was occupied in teaching rather then doing You haue heard how Sander would dispute for his life CAP. XIII The wordes of Christes supper are not figuratiue nor his token a common kinde of tokens The first part of this title that the wordes of Christes supper arenot figuratiue hee prooueth not by any one word as for the other part that Christes token is not a cōmon kind of tokē which he proueth somwhat at large he needed not to haue proued at al. For it is confessed of vs that the sacrament is a more excellent token then can be ordeined by any man And where he saith that none of the fathers teacheth that these words This is my body c. be words figuratiue it shal suffice to oppose Augustine who in plaine termes saith these words Except ye eat the flesh of the sonne of man c. are a figuratiue speach Which wordes notwithstanding among the Papistes haue the same sense that these wordes This is my bo De Doct. Chri. Lib. 3. Cap. 16. the wordes are cited Cap. 11. And what other thing doth Augustine meane when he sayeth Sicut ergo secundum quendam modum sacramentum corporis Christi corpus Christi est sacramentum sanguinis Christi sanguis Christi est ita sacramentum fideifides est Therefore as after a certaine maner the sacrament of the body of Christ is the body of Christ the sacrament of the bloud of Christe is the bloud of Christe so the sacrament of faith meaning baptisme is faith Epist. 23. Bonisacio Is it not manifest that he meaneth the one is a figuratiue speech as well as the other Fie vpon this impudent boasting of the Papistes which care not what lyes they make so they giue not place to the trueth As for the sayings of Cyprian Chrysostome Basil c. or any of the auncient Catholike fathers concerning the wonderfull manner of the presence of Christ in the sacrament doe all proue a spirituall and diuine manner of eating and drinking the bodie of Christ as in their proper places shal be seuerally declared CAP. XIIII That the supper of our Lorde is no sacrament at all if these wordes of Christ This is my bodie and this is my bloude be figuratiue Two leaues and an halfe of this Chapiter are spent to shewe the difference betweene figures of Rhetorike and sacramentall figures and that wordes must be ioyned to the elements to make sacramentes all which is needeles for it is commonly knowne and confessed on both parts sauing that he would make ignorant Papistes beleeue that Oecolampadius Caluine or Peter Martyr whē they read in Tertulliā in Augustine these words of Christ This is my body to be so expounded that is to say a figure or signe of my body they shoulde vnderstande a figure of Rhetorike as Metonymia or Synecdoche and not a sacramentall token No master Sander they were not so young Grammarians or Rhetoricians as you woulde beare fooles in hand but they could vnderstand the difference of a rhetoricall and a sacramentall figure although they coulde tell that a rhetoricall figure is vsed when a sacramentall token is spoken off as in so manie examples of the scripture they haue shewed But nowe let vs see what maine argument you haue to prooue that the supper is no sacrament if the wordes This is my body c. be figuratiue The words saie you doe not signifie a figure of his bodie therfore either they worke his bodie or they make nothing at al. I answere with Tertull. August The words do signifie a figure of his body For so do they expound the words This is my body that is to say a figure or signe of my body which their expositiō were false except those wordes This is my body doe signifie a figure or signe of his bodie Therefore Master Sander you may teach boies that bodie signifieth a substance and not a figure Tertullian and Augustine will not not be so aunswered at your handes They tell you that the interpretation of Christes wordes is such as proueth his speach to be figuratiue in spight of your heart And that euery boye that readeth this chapter may laugh at your arrogant impudence I set downe once againe these words of Christ This cuppe is the newe Testament in my bloud which if they be not confessed of you to bee figuratiue you will not confesse that fire is hote nor water moyst If they be figuratiue what Sacrament will be made with them Where you tell vs that the bodie of Christ vnder the formes of bread and wine is a figure of the same bodie walking on earth suffering on the crosse or sitting in heauen you doe as much as if you woulde teach vs that Abraham sitting close in his tent so that no man coulde see him was father of the same Abraham him selfe as he was the sonne Therah
saye this worde Mee signifieth neither his Godhead nor the nature of his manhood nor both together but the visible forme of a poore man Fy on these beggerly shiftes too badde for boyes to vse in their sophismes S. Augustine is a cleare witnesse against you for vnderstanding of both the textes Loquebatur de praesentia corporis sui Nam secundum maiestatem suam secundum prouidentiam secundum ineffabiiem inuisibilem gratiam impletur quod ab eo dictum est Ecce ego vobiscum omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem saeculi Secundum carnem verò quam vâ—rbum assumpsit secundum quod de virgine natus est secundum id quod a Iudaeis prehensus est quod ligno crucifixus quod de cruce depositus quod linteis involutuâ— quod in sepulchro conditus quod in resurrectione manifestatus non semper habebitis vobiscum Quare Quoniam conuersatus est secundum corporis praesentiam 40. diebus cum discipulis suis eis deducentibus videndo non sequendo ascendit in coelum non est hîc Ibi est enim sedet ad dextram patris hîc est non enim recessit praesentia maiestatis Aliter secundum praesentiam maiestatis semper habemus Christum secundum praesentiaÌ„ carnis rectè dictum est discipulis me autem non semper habebitis Habuit enim illum Ecclesia secundum praesentiam carnis paucis diebus modo fide tenet oculis non videt Hee spake of the presence of his bodye For according to his maiestye according to his prouidence according to his vnspeakeable and inuisible grace it is fulfilled which was saide of him Behold I am with you alwaies euen to the ende of the worlde But according to that fleshe which the worde tooke vppon him according to that hee was borne of a virgine according to that hee was taken of the Iewes that hee was crucified on the tree that hee was taken downe from the crosse that he was wrapped in linen clothes that he was laide in the sepulchre that he was manifested in his resurrection you shal not alwaies haue him with you Wherefore Because he was conuersant with his disciples 40. daies according to the presence of his body and they bringing him on his way by seeing not by following he went vp into heauen is not here For he is there where he sitteth at the right hand of the father and he is here for he departed not in presence of his maiestie Otherwise according to the presence of his maiestie we haue Christ alwayes according to the presence of his flesh it is rightly said vnto the disciples but me you shall not alwaies haue For the Church had him according to the presence of his flesh a fewe dayes now she holdeth him by faith she seeth him not with eies In Ioan. 12. Tr. 50. But to returne to Sander it is the flesh and bloud of Christ which worketh our saluation saith he and wee saye no lesse if the materiall cause may be called a working He that taketh this from the Sacrament depriueth vs of the meane to come to eternall saluation saith Sander This I deny for he that should take away the San crament cannot depriue vs of the meane to come by eternall life Yes saith Sander for that redemptiowhich was wrought by his flesh and bloud is applied to all that bee of a lawfull age by worthye eating and drinking therof But where hath he that exception of them that be of lawefull age or that eate it worthily Christ speaketh generally and absolutely of both And why should we thinke there is any other meane to apply the redemptioÌ„ purchased by the fleshe and bloud of Christ for vs then was for the fathers as before Christ came in the flesh Faith was the onely meane vnto them and the Sacraments were the seales of their faith What other meanes need we to atteine to the same saluation He saith when the flesh of Christ was crucified the soul of Christ deliuered the soule of Abraham and all the other fathers out of prison But where findeth he that Abraham and the fathers were in prison vntill that time We find before that time that AbrahaÌ„ was in so happy estate that his bosom was a receptacle of comfort for al his faithfull children Luc. 16. But to end the matter so euill fauouredly begunne Sander saieth that Christ to shew that he would be in his supper by the nature of his manhoode for that cause named not his person but his flesh his body his bloud and Saint Paul nameth his bones And therefore marke this againe and againe beleeue thou â—he presence of body bloud of flesh and of bones as the word of God speaketh Marke you Papistes marke againe and againe Sander saith he named his flesh body bloud because he would be in his supper by nature of his manhood ergo it is true S. Paul saith that euery true Christian and member of the Church that was from the beginning of the world is a member of Christes body and of his flesh and of his bones ergo beleue thou the presence of Christs body flesh and bones in the Sacrament Verily we beleeue pledg and assurance of this coÌ„munication vnion with Christ to be giuen vs in the Sacrament but in such manner as it was giuen to all the faithfull before the incarnation of Christ who were likewise members of Christes body of his flesh and of his bones but such a monstrous presence as the Papistes do imagine as we knowe it to be needles so we affirme it to be against all such places of the scripture as teach vs the trueth of Christs humaine nature to be like vnto vs in all thinges except sinne Heb. 2. CHAP. XX. It is a colde supper which the Sacramentaries assigne to Christ in comparison of his true supper The eating of Christ by faith and spirite which wee affirme Sander confesseth to be no sleight or colde thinge but to say that no more is done in his supper that is sleightly and coldely saide Why so Master Sander Partly he saith because it may be done without the supper And is it therefore a colde supper Because a man may eate at dinner the same meate which he eateth at supper doth it follow that he eateth a cold supper may not his supper be as warme as his dinner Alas this is a cold reason partly it is a cold thing to call men who consist of bodies to a supper of Christes making and to giue their bodyes none other meate then corruptible bread and wine whereas Christ did forbid vs to worke the perishing meat at his banket You might likewise say it is a cold bath to call men which consist of bodies to regeneration and to giue their bodies nothing but cold water whereas the holy ghoste saith the washing of the fil thines of the flesh saueth vs not 1. Pet. 3. or els Sander maketh another cold wreched reason we call men to that
they ministred the communioÌ„ to infants it shewed their error proceeding of ignorance as all error doth but it sheweth not that they thought the one sacrament to be other wise then the other a seale or assurance of iustification wtout any dreame of transubstantiatioÌ„ That Sand would excuse their custom to haue bin vsed more for a security then for necessitie is to no purpose It is manifest that they thought erroniously that the eternall signe or seale was necessary in both as Aug. Innocent B. of Rome hath defined denying eternall life to infants that dyed without the communion and baptisme as though the grace of God had bene necessarily tyed to the outward elements CAP. XIIII That S. Augustine did not teach thâ—se words Except ye eaâ— the flesh c To betoken the eating of Christonely by faith and spirit nor yet the eating of materiall bread with faithfull remembrance of him but the eating of his flesh to the end we may be the better ioyned to the spirit of God There is no better way to be ioyned to the spirit of god theÌ„ by eating the flesh of Christ spiritually which Aug. doth teach not the carnall manner of eating which Sander doth defend S. Aug. de doct Christ lib. 3. ca 16. as Sander doth confesse affirmeth that this speech of Christ Except yee eat that flesh c containeth a figure And what the meaning of this figure is August telleth vs It is a figure saith he commanding that we should communicate with the passion of our Lord and that we should sweetely and profitably remeÌ„ber that his flesh was crucisied and wounded for vs. But Sander replyeth first against the Lutherans that August calling this speach a figure meaneth not to deny that it appertaineth to the last supper And which of the Lutherans I pray you denyed that it appertaineth to the last supper although they deny that it is singularly spoken of the last supper Secondly he fathereth vpon the Zwinglians an vntruth that they graunt the place to be vnderstoode of Christs last supper to prooue the necessitie of both kinds which is a fable for they graunt none otherwise then I haue often shewed yet a good argument for necessitie of both kinds may be taken out of that place because Christ giueth vs a perfect nourishmeÌ„t of meat and drinke or as Iustine saith of dâ—ie and moyst nourishment vnto which spirituall trueth the externall seale must be made consormable But nowe will Sander teach vs to vnderstande what S. Augustine meaneth by a figuratiue speach which is al one as if he would teach vs to go to supper as it is in the Greeke prouerbe First a siguratiue speach must not denie any word in the speach to be vsed vnproperly but is measured by faith and good manners Whereas Augustine telleth vs that if in any sentence of the scripture the words sound against faith good manners the words must not be taken in their proper sense but they are a figure and signifie some other thing then the words in their proper taking do sound as diuerse examples which he bringeth in the same place beside his plaine wordes do declare This saying hee affirmeth to be a figuratiue speache Thou shalt heape burning coales on his head which he doeth thus interprete Vt intelligas carbones ignis esse vrentes poenitentiae gemitus quibus superbia sanatur eius qui dolet se inimicum fuisse hominis a quo eius miseriae subvenitur That thou mâ—ist vnderstand coales of fire to be the burning groanings of repentance by which his pride is healed which sorroweth that he hath beene enimie of such a man by whome his miserie is helped Beholde euen as coales of fire in this text are not taken in their proper sense for a bodily substance of woodde incensed so is not eating and drinking in the other sentence taken in the proper sense for receiuing at our mouth chawing and swallowing But as Augustine interpreteth for communicating with the flesh of Christ by faith and spirite c. either in the Sacrament or without it And it is a foolish cauil of Sander to say that charitie is not broken when we eate Christ whole vnder the forme of breade without hurting of him c. For Augustine counteth it slagitium an heynous offence to eate the fleshe of man in proper sense of eating that is corporally Yea faith Sander to eate it in peeces as it is solde in tho shambles As though to eate an whole man after that maner were not more monstrous then to eate a piece of him But Sander to shewe his synceritie rehearseth a large place out of Augustine in Psal. 98. which howe cunningly he can wrest for his purpose you shall see Durum illis visum est c. It seemed an hard thing to the Iewes except a man eate my flesh he shall not haue life euerlasting They tooke it foolishly they thought of it carnally and supposed that our Lord minded to cutte of certeine small peeces of his body and to giue them This is an hard talk say they They were harde not the talke For if they were not hard but gentle they would say to them selues He speaketh not this thing rashly but because ther lieth priuie som sacrament being gentle not hard they wold tati with him shal learn of him that thing which after their departure those learned who taried For when the twelue had taried with him the other beeing departed they as who were sory for the others departing warned Christ that they were offended with his word so were departed But Christ instructed them and saied it is the spirite that quickneth the flesh profiteth not the wordes which I haue spoken to you are spirite and life Vnderstand that which I haue spokeÌ„spiritually Ye shal not eate this body which you see wee shall not drinke that bloud which they shall shedde who will crucifie me I haue commended to you a certeine Sacrament which being spiritually vnderstoode shall make you liue And although that Sacrament must needes be visiblye celebrated yet it must be inuisibly vnderstanded Three thinges Sander noteth out of this sayinge First against the Lutherans that Augustine vnderstandeth the precept of eating Christes flesh of the Sacrament I answere that Augustine in other places and namely in his purposed commentary of that place vnderstandeth it not to be singularly spoken of the eating in the Sacrament but otherwise also which is all that wee affirme and denie of referring this place to the Sacrament Secondly he no teth against the Zwinglians that the figuratiue speach which Augustine saieth to be in these wordes is to be meant of the manner of eating in the natural vnderstanding of câ—râ—all men by cutting tearing chawing c. not denying the substance of his flesh whole sound and quicke to be eaten vnder the forme of breade I answere the naturall vnderstanding of carnall men is by eating to receiue in at the mouth that which
presence if any sacrament bee made at al Fisher whether any man had autoritie to make anie Sacrament at all or no. When you can finde Hardings if or condition you shal be answered to Fishers whether or question Thirdly Harding spake of Christs words Fisher of our doings If the scripture be not Christs words Fisher spake onely of our doings 4 Fisher doubted not but the wordes made the presence but he asketh the heretikes howe they can proue it by the holy scriptures Nay syr he affirmeth precisely that it cannot be proued by the scripture These are the foure great enormous fault I trust after this tast no man is desirous to examine the rest of Sanders vntruthes falsely fathered vpon Master Iewel Wherefore I wil goe from henceforth onely to the matter in controuersie Hitherto you heare not Master Iewels article disproued Videlicet that the people were not taught c. as in the beginning of the Chapter The question being not of the wordes but of the meaning saith Iewel Christ meant not this to bee his bodie really Hereto Sander alleageth a place of Hilarie lib. 8. de Trin. to proue that Christ lacked neither wisedome nor vtterance to speak plainely of his Sacraments and mysteries which is verie true for hee spake plainely syncerely and truely although he spake figuratiuely Neither did hee speake otherwise then he meant seeing it is his bodie after a certaine manner as Augustine saith But seeing heere are three or foure persons speaking M. Iewel M. Harding M. Sander and my selfe it shall not be amisse to bring their seuerall speaches in forme of a Dialogue for briefenesse as Sander giueth me example Iewel Christ was the Rocke but yet not really Sand. S. Paule spake not these wordes with intent to make any sacrament or any other thing Fulke S. Paul spake these wordes of a Sacrament made by God in the wildernes Sand. Two diuerse natures in those words are named which can not be one substance But this is my body nameth one substance Fulke One substance is demonstrated and another named Moses might haue said truely shewing the rock to the people This is Christe or els S. Paul could not haue said truly the rock was Christ. Sand. It was not anie one certaine rocke whereof S. Paul spake for the water flowed out of two Rocks Either of which did signifie Christ and they both are onely one Rocke in meaning and in substance figured therefore Saint Paul meant onely of the spirituall Rocke which is Christ. Fulke Manna which was the spirituall meat they did eate rayned euerie day yet was it but one Christ in signification therefore S. Paul meant onely of the spiritual Manna which is Christ and not of the corporall Manna which was a sacrament of Christ if this reason hold not of the spirituall meate howe can it holde of the spiritual drinke Iewel Christ gaue his disciples as S. Augustine saith the figure of his bodie and bloud Sand. He did so but he gaue such a figure as is also the substance of his bodie as himselfe being a figure of his fathers substance is also the selfesame substance with his father Fulke As he gaue a figure he gaue not the substance Christ is the figure of his fathers substance as he is a person distinct by himselfe and not his father Neither doth Augustine meane of such an vnitie in essence as is betweene God the father the sonne when he doth plainly deuide sacramentum rem sacramenti the Sacrament and the thing or matter of the sacrament that is the figure and the thing figured Sand. He gaue a true and not a false signe lib. 2. ca. 12. A miraculous not a common figure lib. 2. cap. 13. A mystical not an artificiall figure lib. 5. cap. 16. A diuine not a rhetoricall figure lib. 2. cap 14. Fulke These are answered in their proper places aboue cited Sand. He gaue a figure of the new testament which hath truth not which betokeneth a thing absent from it which August declareth in Psa. 39. The old fathers did celebrate the figures of the thing to come c. Fulke Augustine in this place and in many other maketh this difference betweene the sacrament of the old Testament and of the new that theirs were of Christ to come once of Christ exhibited and alreadie come but of the reall presence he speaketh no word Ablata sunt signa promittentia c. The promising signes are taken away because the truth that was promised is exhibited In this bodie we are of this bodie we are partakers Speaking of the bodie of Christ which was sacrificed once for all in which wee are after a mysticall manner included and are also partakers thereof after a mysticall manner and so were all that euer pleased GOD not after a corporall manner such as the Papistes imagine wherefore Augustine saith vpon the same Psalme alluding to the celebration of the Sacrament Sursum corda habcamus Siresurrexistis cum Christo dicit fidelibus corpus sanguinem domini accipientibus dicit c. Let vs haue our hearts aboue If yee bee risen againe with Christ hee speaketh to the faithfull hee speaketh to them which receiue the bodie and bloude of our Lorde if you bee risen againe with Christ sauour of these things that are aboue where Christ is sitting at the right hande of God c. Behold Augustine teacheth howe to receiue Christ truely and not as he saith else-where Sacramento tenus as farre as the sacrament or outward signe onely Sand. He gaue a figure but he spake not a figure Fulke Augustine affirmeth both prooued li. 2. cap. 14. Sand. The names of bodie and bloud do vsually signifie a visible corruptible mortal nature which Augustine knowing was a fraide lest children would think that Christ had walked on the earth none otherwise then in the shape of breade for that respect hee alwayes teacheth that the bodie of Christ in the sacrament is the signe and figure of Christs visible bodie Fulke Augustine feared no such matter de Trin. lib. 3. cap. 10. but onely by way of a similitude sheweth that if children should neuer learne more of Christ then that the Sacrament shoulde be shewed them and tolde them that it is the bodie of Christ and also if they should neuer see the shape of bread but onely in the celebration of the sacrament they woulde imagine that Christ had appeared onely in that shape but this is impossible therfore Augustine coulde not feare it And seeing hee had no such feare he had no such respect as Sander dreameth as well concerning his feare as concerning his respect Iew. Tertullian saith This is my body that is to say the figure of my bodie Sand. Hee meaneth so as I saide before of S. Augustine and speaketh against the Marcionites which denied the trueth of Christes body Fulk Tertullian proueth that Christ had a true bodie because the sacrament was a figure thereof for a phātasme or a vaine thing can
The name of spirituall may be taken as many wayes at spiritus which is for God the holy ghost Christ Angels winde gifts spiritual the soule the imagination breath anger or punishment and many other waies Fulke So many waies of taking as you knowe yet you cannot tell any other then as Clemens and Hierom take it for that which hath not the substance but the grace and effect of Christ. Sander That which you bring out of Athanasius apperteineth to the Capernaits and to no man else Fulke Yes to as many as erre grossely like the Capernaites as you Papistes doc Harding The fathers vsed the wordes really substantially c. to put away al doubt of the being of Christs verie bodie in the holy mysteries Iewel He diuineth what they meane before they speake Sander Nay because he is sure of their words he expoundeth their minde Fulke He is so sure of their wordes that he knoweth not where they are written nor you neither Being so often called for and so much bragged of bring them out for shame CAP. XIII Sander A place of Chrysostome expounded Iewel Chrysostom saith in the same homilie If Christ died not whose signe and token is this sacrifice therefore he may be also charged with the sacramentarie quarel Sander You proue a signe here but not that the trueth is absent from the signe Fulke The Sacrament is a signe ergo not the thing signified a relatis Sander The sacrifice of the new testament is the bodie of Christ this is the sacrifice of the newe testament therefore it is the bodie of Christ. Fulke The Sacrament is not the sacrifice propitiatorie of the newe Testament but the passion of Christ. The Sacrament is a spirituall Sacrifice of thanksgiuing as prayer almes preaching vnto which is no reall presence required Your syllogisme is all of particulars make the maior vniuersall and the error is soone espied Euery Sacrifice of the newe Testament is the bodie of Christ. Sander Chrysostome there saith that Marcion Valentinus Manichaeus who denied Christes reall flesh and death are confounded by these mysteries How can that be if the true flesh of Christ be not conteined in them Fulke Verie well as Tertullian frameth his argument from the figure to the thing figured The SacrameÌ„t could not be a figure of Christs body except Christ had a bodie in deede For a voide thing that is a phantasme can haue no figure Sander Chrysostom saith it is euident by these mysteries that Christ is alreadie sacrificed which cannot be true if his reall flesh be not present of which point I haue spoken in my fift booke Cap. 1. Fulke And in the same place I haue aunswered the vanitie of your argument Iewell Master Harding knoweth that Chrysostome speaketh generally of all other mysteries for it followeth Euen so in baptisme the water is a thing sensible the regeneration is a thing spirituall wherefore if M. Harding will force his reall presence in the one Sacrament hee must likewise force the same in the other Sander D. Harding brought that place onely to shewe that the bodie of Christ is not visibly present Fulke The place prooueth that the body of Christ is none otherwise present then regeneration in baptisme Sander In baptisme the grace of regeneration which is giuen is conteined and giuen when the worde commeth to the water Fulke The water is no subiect for the grace of God yet Chrysost saith not the grace but regeneratioÌ„ it self Nothing is borne againe but the partie baptized therefore regeneration is not conteined in the element or action of baptisme CAP. XIIII Sander The difference betweene baptisme and our Lords supper Iewel Forasmuch as these two Sacraments be both of like force I wil touch what the fathers think of gods working in baptisme The fathers in the Councell of Nice bid vs thinke that the water is full of heauenly fire c. Basil the kingdome of heauen is set open Chrysostome God himself in baptisme by his inuisible power holdeth thy head Ambrose In the water is the grace of Christ and the presence of the Trinitie Bernard Let vs be washed in his bloud c. By force of which wordes M. Hard. may proue that the power of God the heauenly fire the grace bloud of Christ is really present in baptisme Sander Nothing is really present that is affirmed of a Sacrament except it be signified present in the wordes instituted by Christ which make the Sacrament or of necessitie be inferred vpon them Fulke Neither is all that really present which is affirmed of a Sacrament that is signified present in the words instituted by Christ which make the Sacrament As Christ saide This is my bodie so hee sayde This cuppe is the newe Testament in my bloud yet it followeth not that the newe Testament is really present in the cuppe no nor in the bloud of Christ which he shedd for vs but is confirmed by it and signified by the other Sander Baptisme the Eucharist hath many differences the one from the other Fulke If they had no differences they should be all one yet haue they not so many as you make But in the matter in question they haue like force to vnite vs to Christ and assure vs of eternall life which none can haue but they that eate the flesh and drinke the bloude of Christ or else what becoÌ„meth of them that are baptized and not admitted to the communion CAP. XV. Sander M. Iewel replyeth not wel touching the authoritie alleaged out of the Nicen Councell Harding We behold saith the Councel of Nice the lambe of God 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 put or laide on that holy table we receiue his precious bodie and bloud 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 verily in deede which is to say really Iewell 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not found in the Greek nor in Tunstall but deuised by M. Harding Sander It is founde in the actes of the Councell that are not all printed but they are extant in diuerse Libraries Fulke You name none where we should find them to trye your trueth and the antiquitie of those coppies Sander In many Latine printed bookes it is translated sâ—â—m situated or put Fulke The question is not what some Latine coppies haue but what is the originall Greeke Iewel Must 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth to be set or placed needes sounde a reall presence Sander Can you haue a capon set and placed vppon your table which is not really present Fulke A fit comparison betweene a capon and the lambe of God Iewel Christ dwelleth in our heart by faith and yet not really Sander The lambe of God is not saide to be on the holy table by faith but to be set or laide there Fulke How can the Councell saye We behold it set there but by faith Iewel S. Hierom saith as often as we enter into the sepulchre we see our Sauiour lying in his shroode yet he lay not there really Sander But he lay
incarnation because his soule was illuminated with the visioÌ„ of God to whose nature it was ioyned in one person and where cleare vision is there is no faith saith Sander Not considering that Christ did voluntarily empty him selfe of all such pretogatiues of his godheade as might hinder him to haue experience of all our infirmities except sinne And therfore S. Luke testifieth that Iesus incresed in wisedom and stature and fauour with God men But where such cleare vision is as Sand. imagineth there is no increase of wisdome gods gifts And concerning faith read the 22. Psal. which is a prophecie of Christ professing his constant faith in so much that he was therefore derided of the wicked which saide he trusted in God let him deliuer him c. Yea the Apostle to the Hebrewes proueth the humanitie of Christ by this Psal. 16. where the prophet speaketh in the person of Christ I wil put my trust in him that is in God yet Sander saith he neuer had faith but more then faith As though a greater a more perfect faith were not faith Iewel Likewise he saith we are ioyned vnto Christ by the regeneration of one nature and againe wee are ioyned to Christ by the nature of one baptisme hereof he coÌ„cludeth therefore are we naturally ioyned to him Sand. S. Hilarie hath not the terme naturally of our coniunction vnto Christ by baptisme which terme D. Harding hath found to appertaine to the sacrament Fulke A simple quarel to make such outcries of the terme naturally when Hilarie hath termes in all reasonable mens iudgements equiualent concluding that all Christians are one not onely by wil but also by nature Because they are cloathed with one Christ by the nature of one baptisme And where I pray you hath either Harding or you found that Christs body is in yâ— sacrament naturally according to M. Iewels challenge wil you neuer leaue this beggerly sophistrie Harding hath found this terme to appertaine to the sacrament ergo he hath answered M. Iewels challenge Iewel Thus it appeareth by S. Hilarie we may haue Christ naturally within vs by three other sundrie meanes and therfore not onely as M. Harding holdeth by receiuing of the sacrameÌ„t Like as Christ is naturally corporally and carnally in vs by faith by regeneration and by baptisme euen so and none otherwise hee is in vs by the sacrament of his bodie Sand. It is not confessed that Christ is in vs naturally c. Fulke But it is prooued that by nature wee are one with him But that Christ shoulde be corporally in our bodies Hilarie saith neither of faith baptisme nor of the supper Sand. You distinguish regeneration from baptisme as though baptisme were not the sacrament that did regenerate Fulke He that distinguisheth the cause from the effect as you make it or the signe from the thing signified as Hilarie meaneth deserueth no reproofe in wisemens iudgement Sand. If Christ be none otherwise in vs by the sacrament of his body then by faith or baptisme why do you make it a seuerall way from the other before named Fulke Because all these 4. seuerall wayes may notwithstanding agree in one spirituall manner of coniunction which hath no neede of your Popish reall presence Sand. The vnitie of Christes birth sufficeth not to proue that Christ is one with vs for that vnitie of nature might be thought to pertaine no more to the good then to the euill Fulke There is farther required the vertue of Christs spirite to make that naturall vnitie effectuall to giue vs eternal life this vniting vertue is testified by the sacrament Sand. S. Hilarie doth vs to vnderstande that in the sacrament we take the word made flesh so verily take it as the word was verily made flesh Fulk He expoundeth himself saying we take it verily vnder a mysterie vnder a sacrament which mysterie is not the forme breade and wine for that is an open and sensible thing Iewell That wee verily and vndoubtedly receiue Christs bodie in the sacrament it is neither denied nor in question Sand. You saide before that Christ in his supper added an outward sacrament to the spirituall eating named in S. Iohn which sacrament you said was commonly called a figure againe you said the bread is a figure this is confuse and contrarie doctrine Fulke This is wretched wrangling An outward sacrament which is a figure added to spirituall eating taketh not away spirituall eating but helpeth our faith in spirituall eating Sand. You confessed before that the sacrament is receiued with the mouâ—â— now you confesse that Christs bodie is receiued in the sacrament therefore Christs bodie is receiued with the mouth Fulke Your minor shoulde be the sacrament is Christs bodie which in your sense is not yet confessed otherwise your syllogisme is as good as this Baptisme is receiued on the outside of the bodie the holy ghost is receiued in baptisme therfore the holyghost is receiued on the outside of the bodie Sand. The aduerbe verily in this place doth signifie naturally really and substantially For as the worde is made flesh really so we take really the word being flesh in our Lords meate The worde was not made flesh onely by our faith but in trueth of his substance Therefore we take the word being flesh not by our faith onely but in trueth of his substance Fulk The aduerbe verily in this place signifieth truly according to the thing but not that according to the manner of the thing in al points wee take the flesh of Christ in the Lordes meate as the same was incarnate in the Virgins wombe but as Hilarie himselfe saith afterwarde Verè sub mysterio We receiue the flesh of his bodie truly vnder a mysterie which excludeth naturally or a natural manner of receiuing We eate Christ as truely as he was made man borne of the Virgin Mary but not in the same manner we eate him not sensibly visibly palpablie in length bredth and thicknesse as hee was made fleshe but vnder a mysterie or sacrament of his flesh which is communicated vnto vs after a spirituall manner And where you say the worde was not made flesh onely by our faith therefore we take his flesh not by faith onely Neither is the antecedent true nor the conclusion right For Christ was not made flesh onely by our faith nor by our faith at all For our faith was no meane of his incarnation Where vpon I might as rightly conclude The word was not made flesh by our faith at all therefore we take not the worde being made flesh by faith at all This argument is as good vpon the aduerbe verily vsed by S. Hilarie as that which you make Iewel It is the bread of the heart hunger thou within thirst thou within Sand. As Christ by taking real flesh is much the better breade of the heart hungred within so it is extreme madnesse to thinke that Christes bodie giuen vnder the forme of breade is therefore lesse hungred
within or lesse foode of the heart Fulke If Christ had not taken reall flesh to his diuine nature he could not haue bene the foode of eternall life to vs but there is no such necessitie of giuing his bodie in the forme of bread therefore the similitude is vnlike Iewel The thing that is receiued in spirit is receiued in deede Sand. Spirituall receiuing is good and true when it shouldreth not out reall receiuing Fulke If reall receiuing bee receiuing in deede spirituall receiuing shouldreth not out reall receiuing Iewel It is an holy mysterie and an heauenly action forcing our mindes vp to heauen and there teaching vs to eate the bodie of Christ not outwardly by the seruice of our bodies Sand. Is not verè sumimus spoken of taking by the seruice of our bodies Fulke As concerning the outward sacrament but not concerning the bodie of Christ. Sand. Christ hath mingled that nature of his flesh to the nature of euerlastingnesse vnder a sacrament of his flesh to be communicated vnto vs which you passe ouer in Hilarie as you were vtterly blinde The nature of Christs flesh is I trow real It is coÌ„municated vnto vs vnder a sacrament which is receiued by the mouth therfore the nature of Christs flesh is receiued by our bodies and not by faith alone Fulke And is the reall flesh of Christ mingled with his diuinitie what can followe thereof but confusion of the natures If that be hereticall then the nature of his flesh mingled with the nature of his euerlastingnesse is not his reall flesh nor his reall diuinitie but the natural propertie as he termeth it afterward of his diuine flesh which is communicated vnto vs vnder a sacrameÌ„t As for your rotten reason that whatsoeuer is receiued vnder the sacrament is receiued by the mouth because the sacrament is receiued with the mouth is confuted before Iewel The truth hereof standeth not in any reall presence but as Hilarius saith in a mysterie which is a sacrament Sand. Hilarius saide wee receiue verily the flesh of his bodie vnder a mysterie you report him to say in a mysterie Is that no false dealing Fulke It is all one before God and al wise and honest men Sand. Well we receiue Christ verily vnder the sacrament and that sacrament is by your confession also outward and commonly called a figure therefore we verily receiue the flesh of Christs bodie vnder an outwarde figure which is the figure of bread although you meane the substance of bread Fulke There is both an outward sacrament and an inward mysterie S. Hilarie speaketh of the whole dispeâ—sation of the sacrament which is both outwarde and inward and not of the signe of bread onely or principally M. Iewel neuer confessed that the outward figure of bread although in some sense it be called a sacrament yet that it is the whole sacrament Iewell Our regeneration in Baptisme in a certaine bodily sort teacheth vs the purgation of the minde as Diony sius saith so it is in the Sacrament of Christes bodie Sand. Saint Augustine saieth that must be eaten in the trueth it selfe spiritually which is visibly taken in the sacrament and not one thing outwardly taken and another thing inwardly as M. Iewel would haue it De verb. Apost Ser. 2. Fulk Are you such a bussarde that you cannot see the opposition betweene eating in a Sacrament and eaâ—ing in trueth visibly and spiritually I trow the reall substance of Christes bodie is notvisibly eaten in the sacrament but the breade which is so called because it is a sacrament thereof Iewell Although Christ be not bodily present yet that doth not hinder the substance of the mysterie Sand. The substance of the mysterie must needes be hindred where it is absent Fulke Christ is not absent although not bodily present Sand. The substance of the mysterie is the naturall substance of Christ vnder the Sacrament Therfore Saint Hilarie saieth The naturall propertie by the sacrament is the sacrament of the perfect vnitie The naturall propertie is the naturall substance for so S. Hilarie vseth the word proprietas verie much for the substance and personall being of God Fulke So often that you can bring none example but li. 5. cap. 5. you fetch your example our of Augustine Sand. These words can haue none other literal meaning but this The substance of Christ through the forme of bread wherin vnitie is figured is the sacrament of perfect vnitie Fulke Lib. 5. Cap. 5. you shall finde another literall sense more agreeable to the minde and purpose of Hilarie Sand. S. Hilarie saith There is no place to doubt of the trueth of flesh and bloude For nowe both by the profession of our Lorde himselfe and â—by our faith it is flesh in deede and bloude in deede Answere I pray you M. Iewel what is flesh in deed what is the nominatiue case to est I knowe none other beside the word sacramentum c. Fulk The more foolish Priest you For caro the flesh of Christ the bloud of Christ of whose truth we ought not to doubt is by his profession and our faith flesh in deede and bloud in deede Sand. It is meant by S. Hilarie of an outward thing for he saith immediately haec accepta these thinges taken and drunken doe bring to passe that both we may be in Christ and Christ in vs. Fulke You that could construe so pretily before do now forget your concords for haec accepta will not agree with sacramentum in number that should haue bâ—â—â— the nominatiue case to est And what can these thinges being taken haue relation vnto but to the flesh and bloud of Christ which immediately before was auouched to be flesh and bloud truely which being receiued maketh Christ to dwell in vs and vs in Christ. The outwarde thing that is receiued bringeth not to passe that Christ dwelleth in them that receiue it Wherefore the flesh and bloud of Christ are receiued inwardly not outwardly Sand. He saith further Christ himselfe is in vs by his flesh not by the meane of bread and wine Fulk Who saith otherwise Sand. And afterwarde he is beleeued to be in vs by the mysterie of the sacraments ipso in nobis naturaliter permanente himselfe tarying naturally in vs. Fulke This cannot be after the popish vnderstanding by which Christ tarieth no longer in vs then the formes of bread and wine remaine vncorrupted Sand. He concludeth against the third argument of the Arrians Si ergo nos c. If then we liue naturally according to the flesh by him that is to say hauing obteined the nature of his flesh how can hee but haue the father naturally in himselfe according to the spirit seing he liueth for the father By which it appeareth that as the substance of God the father is really in the person of Christ So S. Hilarie meant that Christes natural substance by means of the sacrament receiued is within our owne persons Fulke Then Hilarie should meane that Christ