or in another consideration wee call the Catholicke Church all of all Kinreds Tongues and Nations who vnder one and the same common Ensigne of Christian Profession giue their names to CHRIST and are in the count of His House heere whether they bee onlie in it or also of it or to speake improperlie as in some Cases the Fathers doe the Catholicke Church is the communitie of the Church holding Trueth in relation to Declyners there-from But your Poet appropriating this Title to the first Converters hath forfaulted from this Dignitie all the Converted by them And thus his Proposition is not onlie false but even ridiculous For how-so-ever the Converters of others by an improper Speach may be called Catholicks as anie particular Church holding Trueth is called a Catholicke Church or anie faithfull Man a Catholicke man because they are true partes of the Catholicke Church in which onlie is Trueth Lyfe and Salvation yet to call anie particular eyther person order of persons or companie the Catholicke man persons or Church it is an insolentlie arrogant Speach His Assumption I distinguish If hee affirme That Rome first converted all Nations to the Fayth and was the first publisher of the Gospell it is so shameleslie false as I thinke Satan might blush to broach out such a Lie How did Paul glorie in the LORD and that before hee did see Rome that from Arabia to Illyricum he had filled all with the Gospell of CHRIST and that most part where CHRIST had not beene named not building on anie other man's foundation Haue all the other eleven Apostles besides Peter forgotten thinke you their LORD's Commission of whom wee haue no certayne record that ever anie did see Rome If converting Nations to the Fayth might appropriate to anie Church downe of the same But no Companie offereth to GOD a cleane Sacrifice from the rysing of the Sunne to the setting of the same but the Church of Rome There-fore the Church of Rome is onlie and properlie the Catholicke Church The Proposition of this his Syllogisme hee taketh from the Prophet Malachie His Assumption hee prooveth stronglie for-sooth by an vndenyable Trueth That Onelie the Church of Rome offereth all-where the holie Sacrifice of the Messe Which hee maketh no question but that is the onlie cleane Sacrifice offered to GOD all-where from the rysing to the setting of the Sunne And thus hee thinketh his Conclusion can not fayle him Eriphilus And so I thinke also Eubulus and I hope shall thinke so still for anie Aunswere you are able to make there-vnto how-so-ever you would seeme for-sooth to make a verie light account of it and would according to your manner laugh-over those Argumentes which most pintch you Eubulus Then advert what I haue to say and thinke syne what you please The Condition of CHRIST His Church set downe by Malachie whence the Poet bringeth his Proposition I acknowledge according to the Prophet his sense and wordes which your man Eriphilus resumeth deceitfullie The wordes are these From the ◅sing of the Sunne to the going downe there-of My Name shall bee great amongst the Gentiles and in all places Incense shall bee brought to My Name and a cleane Gift These cleare and distinct wordes eyther ignorantlie or fraudfullie your man obscureth perverteth and involveth to darken the difference betwixt expiatorie Sacrifices or Sacrifices for sinne and other Oblations of Prayse or due Worship vvhich both in their diverse Types are most distinctlie put and in the Anagogicke Veritie must bee diverselie considered And this your man doeth to bring some Colour to his Assumption which is impudentlie false Neyther will the Offering of your Messe which is neyther cleane holie nor a Sacrifice but a most sacrilegious prophanation of an holie Sacrament and the moste detestable Idolatrie that ever was defended for good Worship appropriate to Rome the Offring all-where of Incense and a cleane Gift to the LORD Are you so shallow a Man in Scripture Eriphilus that you know not how all true Christians anie-where beeing made Kinges and Priestes to GOD in CHRIST doe offer vp to Him the Sacrifices of Prayse even the Calues of the Lippes Doe wee not offer vp our selues an holie living acceptable Sacrifice even our reasonable Service What-so-ever workes of Charitie wee in the feare and loue of GOD performe are they not Sacrifices and accepted in CHRIST To doe good and to distribute forget not for with such Sacrifices GOD is well pleased sayeth the Apostle Is not the Liberalitie of the Philippians by the same Apostle called A Sacrifice of sweet Savour and acceptable to GOD Your Man his whole Senses haue beene drowned in his Challice when so doltishlie hee forgot him-selfe as to leaue no cleane Offering in the Church but his monstrous Messe As for anie other Sacrifice for sinne but that one and once for all offered wee acknowledge not So as your Messe may be well relegated to sicke Swyne for whom vpon conveaned pryce your Men haue mumbled out a million Now as your Questioner playeth the Cavillatour both in that hee confoundeth diverse kyndes of Sacrifices and also that hee acknowledgeth not with cleare Scripture anie other cleane Oblation in the Christian Church but the Mischiefe of the Messe So hee illudeth more-over by reasoning from Sacrifice and Oblation figuratiuelie and allegoricallie spoken of to Sacrifice and Oblation in proprietie of signification from typicall speaches concluding not allegoricallie but properlie and that most ignorantlie foolishlie The Prophets fore-speaking of CHRIST His Kingdome doe ordinarilie expresse the Condition thereof vnder Legall Types where-by it was fore-shadowed Which is so evident in all their manner of Dispensation as it is marvell if anie dare pretende to misknow it Speaking of the Conversion of Nations a◅d of their Association to the Church they prophecie That all Nations shall come yearlie and worship at HIERUSALEM Which to vnderstand properlie it were to bee a proper Asse in Divinitie For expressing of the great measure of Light and Knowledge vnder the Gospell they prophecie That all men shall see Visions and dreame Dreames to declare that the Worship of GOD shall bee no more tyed to anie one place but that all-where who worship Him in Spirit and Trueth shall bee accepted Isaia telleth of three Altars to bee erected one in Iudea one in Assyria and one in Aegypt And thus to show how the worship of GOD should bee no more confined within the Iewish natiō or precinct of Canaan Malacbie fore-telleth That Incense and a cleane Gift shall bee offered in all places and that the Name of the LORD shall bee great from the rysing of the Sunne to the going-downe there-of And howe will you out of this make your monstrous Messe or out of your Messe make the miserable Mongers there-of to bee the Catholicke Church except first you make Mules of Men Or is there anie eyther Shame or Sinceritie in disputing when vpon typicall Praedictions Conclusions are inferred
true Religion is not onlie buried but al-so lost Which after that perfect Sacrifice which CHRIST offered once for all offereth still Expiatorie Sacrifices for Sinne Which devyseth Sacramentes of their owne which they haue not received from the LORD Which superstitiouslie keepe Dayes and Tymes Which set vp Saynctes departed and erect Images to bee worshipped with Religious Adoration Who glorying of Fathers and Martyres are them-selues Persecuters and Murderers of the Sayncts That Companie can not bee the Church of CHRIST but is vndoubtedlie The Antichristian Synagogue But such is the Church of Rome There-fore the Church of Rome is not the true Church of CHRIST but is The Antichristian Synagogue Now as your Man 's stout Asseveration of holie Service Ceremonies Sacrifice Sacraments Dayes c. will not exeeme your Church from the Stayne of this Conclusion except you try verifie them to be such by that onlie Touch-stone which in anie case you desyre never to bee touched so will his vayne Acclaiming of all the Sayncts Martyres and Virgines contayned in our Kalendar and the pretended canonizing of them much lesse helpe him What they haue beene who are contayned in our Kalendar wee are not much curious to inquyre because wee holde it not for a Register of Sayncts but for a civill Rule where-by to calculate Tymes And I praesume that Ianus Iulius and Augustus are none of the number written in Heaven as perhaps no more are some others vvho are written in the Kalendar vvhose Names yet in civill vse may serue fitlie for Notes of Tymes And I thinke verilie your Poet hath lost both the Yeare of GOD and Dominicall Letter al-so when hee is prooving Religion from the Kalendar which wee esteemed ever should bee cleared from Scripture And hee hath dipped his Mynde so deepelie in this Studie as hee asketh when and where they lived But foolish Man it is neyther the ryme when nor the place where anie Man eyther liveth or dieth that maketh him a Christian. But that third thing in his Question which onlie for all except to multiplie Babling hee should haue asked namelie in what Fayth they lived and died And then wee answere That if they were Saynctes indeede they both lived and died in the same Fayth which wee holde and were even of our Companie which Companie is not defined by Tyme when or place where but by the vnion of what-so-ever persones in what-so-ever place and of what-so-ever tyme in one LORD one Fayth one Spirit on Baptisme c. for all Sayncts are sanctified by the Trueth and Thy Word is Trueth sayeth our Saviour And giving this that all these Sayncts had beene not onlie in the Companie of the Church of Rome then but also that they had beene of her Companie for manie even now are in her Companie which are not of it Come out of her my People sayeth the Spirit and holding one and the same Fayth which Rome at that tyme helde yet as Eubulus hath now more than once tolde you What will anie Prayse or Praerogatiue of Rome then make for Rome now which is not now of the Companie of Rome then but is the Synagogue of Satan where-as Rome of olde was of our Companie Eriphilus What Philadelphus will you make those whom the Church of Rome hath Canonized to bee of your Companie they were Canonized I tell you may Ages before Luther was borne Philadelphus Of their Canonizing Eriphilus I will not now much dispute whether it was farther eyther to their honour who were so Canonized or to theirs who sacrilegiouslie praesume to rob GOD of His proper Honour in making Sayncts or to the reproach and disgrace of both I am certaine that whom GOD hath sanctified hee is and will bee a Saynct though the Pope and all the Conclaue had concluded the contrarie and whom GOD hath not sanctified no power in the Worlde can make holie I say that in this your glorying of Canonizing Saynctes you haue as valide an Argument for the Church of Rome as the building of the Prophets Tombes and garnishing of their Sepulchres was for the Iewes whose Fathers were Murderers of the Prophets and them-selues crucifiers of the LORD of Glorie And our Fayth Eriphilus was not borne with Luther no more than your Heresie was borne with you but our Fayth is the same Fayth where-by all Faythfull in all Ages and Places ever lived as yours is that same deceitfull Illusion which even in the Apostolicke tymes Satan was a-hatching and which having by slow degrees mounted to so monstrous an height is now agayne neare the dead-trach to the Devil 's great displeasure Philomathes If EUBULUS and I shall giue over to you PHILADELPHUS and to ERIPHILUS the reasoning of this Matter I feare wee must provyde vs some-where of long Weapons to goe betwixt you so Satyricke are you and so Cholericke is ERIPHILUS Philadelphus Verilie Philomathes I mynde not to free Eubulus of that Taske where-of hee can much better acquyte him-selfe than I am able and if Eriphilus take my Counsell hee shall beholde you all-so to pleade your part And it is not so much anie Satyricke Speaches of myne as it pleaseth you to call them which haue marred Eriphilus Mirth as Eubulus sad Syllogismes vvhereby hee hath so sacked all your Poët his proper Markes as how-so-ever at first rejecting my Sonnets hee summoned vs to Syllogismes yet I perceiue him now so surfeyted with them that in a compassion of his Cholericke Passion I will yet vouchsafe him one Sonnet to swadge it where-in hee shall not challenge one Satyricke Syllable Catholicke can not bee to Sense subdued Continuance is but a common Case Things Visible are often-times vnviewed What 's Unitie if it bee not in Grace Hypocrisie some-tyme â—…surpes the place Of Holynesse if true Light bee not Leader Who Flesh for Spirit who Shades for Sooth embrace The more devote more doting they 'r and deader Would'st thou stand stay'd ' gaynst all both Doubts Dangers Follow CHRIST'S Voyce and flee the voyce of Strangers Philomathes I knowe not howe your Sonnet hath wrought on Eriphilus mynde but verilie you haue made your worde good in this That in all your Sonnet there is not one Sarcasticke Syllable all-be-it it bee so full of Sentence as you haue compryzed in a short Summe the Drift of all Eubulus Discourse agaynst our Man's Markes But nowe both the Day and the Way are shortening and wee haue yet one Poynt to passe thorowe namelie of HAERETICKES You haue beene so difficill Eubulus to graunt vs the Title of the true Church and haue so farre set at naught all our Notes as I would gladlie heare how you will cleare your owne Churches from this imputation of HAERESIE which our Man heere at great length layeth agaynst you Eubulus If hee could haue prooved his power in anie thing hee would chiefelie haue imployed it for the credite of his owne Church and Cause Where-in if hee had prevayled hee should with one and the same travell haue
than manie others where-through we are holden in a singular care to comfort you and in-call GOD for your vp-holding vvho is sufficientlie able to beare you out in that Service Hee hath put you in and to furnish you Strength according to the Burden Hee hath layde on you But this our Digression vpon your Theriomachie hath set vs a-side of that which principallie wee had to impart vnto you and for which wee are speciallie glad that we are so convenientlie conveaned Then turning Eye to Philadelphus Sir you can best make relation of that which you did latelie heare and where-with there-vpon you did immediatelie acquaynt mee Philadelphus You know Theriomachus that the Ladie of yonder Place is my tender Kins-woman and is commended for both Naturall and Civill Gifts for zeale also in Religion but without knowledge I asking her this same day vvhy shee did remayne so refractarie agaynst the Trueth Shee answered That shee could finde no Resolution to her Soule of such Doubts as chiefelie moved her to abhorre our Communion al-be-it shee had so farre sought for it that shee had delivered them to you in writ and that you receiving them of her hand vpon covenant of an Answere yet had done nothing for your acquytall there-in So as this is not onelie an imputation to you of fayling promise but it strengtheneth her also the more in Errour while your ceasing maketh her think her Questions so strong that you can finde nothing to answere to them Theriomachus The Commendation which that Ladie carrieth for those partes you mention of her I acknowledge to bee most just It is true shee delivered to mee some Questions in writ to all which in conference with her selfe I answered as farre as in my judgement might haue satisfied anie Soule set singlie for Resolution As for anie answere in writ I neyther promised and asking advise of my Brethren of our Presbyterie if it were expedient and in that case offering there-to my paynes they thought it no wayes convenient to write anie thing against so ridiculous and oft-times confuted Cavillations Eubulus Haue you those Questions by you that wee may see them Theriomachus Heere they are So taking out a sheete of paper hee gaue it in Eubulus hands vvho vnfolding it VVhat Brother this is a Ryme Theriomachus So it is Philadelphus I pray you Eubulus let vs heare it Then Eubulus having read it over with a sober Smyle looked to Philadelphus and sayde VVhat doe you thinke Sir of these VVares Is there in them anie such matter of high boasting to our Adversaries as that wee should be stirred to make them answere Then turning to Theriomachus Truelie Brother I both reverence the wise judgement of the Presbyterie and approue your acquiescing there-to And verilie I both marvell and greatlie pittie that a person other-wayes so well endewed should bee misscarried with such foolish thinges vvhich al-be-it they haue beene manie times answered by diverse and that I haue latelie answered each of them particularlie in my Defence of our Callinges and Discoverie of the Adversaries Dotage in the verie selfe Demands in substance sent to my selfe yet simple Soules are still borne in hand That these forsooth are insoluble Knots And it is indeede no marvell that they delude so securelie when first they haue brought their Disciples heere-to That they neyther will reade what wee write nor heare what wee teach And if perhaps vpon anie such motion as this is from anie of them wee fall to write ought it is immediatelie without anie eyther reading or pondering what we speake put in their Ghostlie Fathers handes whose word syne they take for the estimation it is to bee had in as I haue latelie learned even by mine owne experience Philadelphus I can not denye Eubulus but you haue great reason to speake so yet in anie Case I would that one of you should say some-what to these Questions where-by if the misscarried partie may not bee converted as mine heartes desire were yet at least the Questioner his bragging may bee calmed some-what Eubulus For my paâ—…t I mynde not to answere ought both because in mine other Treatises I haue alreadie saide what I esteemed needfull whence anie who in singlenesse seeketh Resolution will not wearie to search it and because I ever abhorred such kinde of contestation for that what or how oft so-ever wee answere yet still the same thinges shall bee of new and impudentlie obtruded If you Brother Theriomachus thinke it good you may satisfie Philadelphus here-in and the Adversarie's insolencie shall so answere for you to your Brethren as you neede not feare to finde them such severe Iudges as was Manlius to his valiant Sonne Theriomachus What you judge were ydle labour for you how can I bee there-in laudablie occupyed if anie expediencie were of an Answere it lyeth now most on you for mine imputation is past and the next vndoubtedlie will bee yours And as it can not escape their knowledge that you haue both craved and gotten a sight of their Questions so this will bee their glorying That from man to man wee haue all spitted at them and given them over Eubulus I am glad Brother that in this your daylie Combate with Beastes you are not yet so mated but that you are chearfullie disposed to jest with your Friendes If such motiues as these did alwayes stirre vs as our Adversaries are disposed there should never bee anie ende of jangling Alwayes if it please you I will retaine this Rime some dayes and there-after sende it vnto you Theriomachus So that you send it backe with what-so-ever children you shall beget vpon it that I may haue mine own with increase and now with this condition I must take my leaue of you both for such instant necessities as force mee against my will to breake you companie and I perceiue some others casting them-selues in the way to meete you The Blessing of the LORD bee with you Philadelphus and Eubulus The Grace of GOD accompanie comfort and strengthen you Eubulus You see Philadelphus vpon how light and small grounds our Adversaries builde vp to them-selues matter of glorying against vs but I pray you what two Gentlemen are these who as seemeth are drawing towards vs Philadelphus If I take them rightlie vp the one is Eriphilus and the other is Philomathes both two Papists but of a much-different disposition for this Eriphilus is of a bitter and contentious humour the other Philomathes of a sweet modest naturall and other-wayes as towardlie a Gentleman as I know anie but that hee is not yet well lightened in the true way of GOD His feare and I thinke they bee comming to salute mee These same are the Men. Philomathes Doe you know Eriphilus what Gentle-man this is which accompanieth Philadelphus Eriphilus What Philomathes haue you not as yet knowne Eubulus whome I can not tell what phreneticke Fansies or melancholious Miâ—…contentmentes haue of late yeares driven of a private Gentle-man to become a Preacher and
vnder Sense and so can bee no Marke at all Sophisticall for that of that which we confesse to be a true Attribute of the Church hee would conclude a discerning Marke But all Attributes are not Markes Now Eriphilus refell mine Argument or graunt mee I pray you some respite from burning for without merite you haue al-readie burned too manie vpon humour Philadelphus You could not away Eriphilus with my Sonnets but as I thinke Eubulus Syllogismes are no lesse pricking Philomathes But I pray you Eubulus how-so-ever your Reasons are subtill and I can not denye but builded vpon confessed Grounds and how-so-ever that Catholicke is an Attribute as you call it of the Church is apprehended by Fayth yet seeing that the moste approoved Fathers in their Disputations agaynst the Heretickes of their tymes doe presse them sore with the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church which they ordinarilie oppose vnto them it would appeare that they had some reason to doe so and that even Vniversalitie is in some respect a Marke of the true Church Neyther see I howe you can disapprooue our Mens Argument agaynst you brought from this Note except you will condemne those Famous and Auncient Fathers also as having vaynlie and sophisticallie reasoned for the Trueth Eubulus To cleare you Philomathes of all doubt heerein and to free our selues from anie eyther conscience of our owne guiltinesse where-fore we would reject this Reason or of anie vnreverend Opinion of those Fathers who as you truelie affirme in some Cases and Respectes did vse it the aequivocation of this word Catholicke must be opened vp where-by your Doctours willinglie illude and where-by your simple ones are vnwittinglie deceived For the Catholicke Church is of the Fathers so called eyther properlie and absolutelie or improperlie and but in some speciall Respect and Relation Absolutelie and most properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole number of what-so-ever tyme or place who haue beene are or shall bee vnited vnto CHRIST their Head and liue in Him by His Spirit whether heere on Earth fighting or hence in Heaven triumphing Absolutelie and lesse properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole militant companie heere on Earth of what-so-ever Kinred Tongue or Nation vnder one and the same common Ensigne of Christian Profession whether Hypocrites or true Professours whether pure or corrupt Worshippers whether Orthodox or Hereticall as even Bellarmine argueth Cap. 7. De Notis Eccles. In anie of which Cases shee is believed and in her Vniversalitie falleth not vnder Sense Improperlie agayne and in opposite Relation the Church is called CATHOLICKE for two Respects The one In opposite Relation to the Church of the Iewes which was limited within the compasse of one People and of one Region the Christian Church no more so confined but spread indifferentlie over all is called the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH Neyther thus because that eyther al-wayes all Peoples Vniversallie or moste parte of Men embrace the Gospell but because the Entrie is opened and offered indifferentlie vnto all The other Respect was the opposite Relation to hereticall Companies separating them-selues by Errour from the common Bodie of the Church Trueth mayntayned there-in And in this last Respect it is that al-most the Fathers cōmonlie speak of it calling the Cōmunitie of the Visible Church retayning Trueth in relation to particular hereticall Companies the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH And in this Sense opposing ordinarilie to arrogant men the Authoritie Multitude Consent Succession c. of the Catholicke Church as you haue alleadged Philomathes But in this manner of the Fathers reasoning two things are carefullie to bee marked whereby the Fathers shall bee found both pertinentlie and prudentlie to haue vsed this Argument where by your men now shall bee seene evidentlie and impudentlie to abuse it The first is that state and condition of the Church wherein this Argument hath place according as it was when the Fathers vsed it The second is what weight or moment the Fathers placed in it The state of the Church then was in common pure holding Trueth and by the force thereof purging or expelling all in-bred or accressing evils or Heresies So as then though by an improper Speach yet the Communalitie of the Church keeping Trueth in relation to a few Declyners might not impertinentlie bee called the Catholicke Church and her authoritie might well haue beene opposed vnto them But who in a plaine contrarie state and condition of the Church when Errour obtaineth in common and Trueth is afflicted and borne downe yet without consideration of the altered State and Condition would still vse the same reason from Multitude and what-so-ever or how-so-ever an obtaining State hee were a ridiculous Sophister confounding diverse and distinct times and cases To reason from the state of the Church in Ephesus where-in evill was not tollerated to the state of the Church in Smirna where-in Heretickes waxed prowde and despysed the abject state of true Professours it were sophisticall but much more sophisticall to reason from the state in Ephesus to the state in Pergamus when the true Church dwelt even where Satan's Throne was knowne to GOD though hid from the worldlie sort To reason from the Woman cloathed with the Sunne treading the Moone and crowned with twelue Starres to the same Woman lurking in the Wildernesse it concludeth not for as in the first Case the Fathers had reason and did wyselie to convince by all Advantages so whyle the Case is clearlie altered according as by Scripture was fore-tolde and Antichrist hath obtayned a Throne even in the Temple when the Evill or Gangrene in the bodie and having even over-gone the Bodie in common will contende agaynst the healthsome remnant then are wee both to leaue improper Speaches and wyselie to distinguish deceitfullie-confounded Tymes and Cases and properlie to pleade That the Gangrene in the Bodie and even affecting and over-going the Bodie in common yet is but an Adherent or accressing Evill in but not of the Bodie and That the healthsome remnant retayning the Lyfe of the Head and by vertue there-of resisting the over-going Gangrene is the true Catholicke Church And this altered Condition of Tyme and of the Church in tyme which maketh the Argument some-tyme pertinentlie vsed to bee nowe ridiculous besides that both SCRIPTVRE hath fore-tolde it the FATHERS did see the working on of it and wee haue aboundantlie often prooved and still offer to prooue it It is cleare also by that other Poynt which I propounded to bee observed in this reasoning of the FATHERS namelie What Weyght or Moment they placed in that same Argument VVhere-in they even professe That they vsed it not as an infallible demonstratiue Marke but as a Motiue vvhich beeing joyned with cleare TRVETH was worthie to bee regarded but which eyther without TRVETH or agaynst TRVETH should carrie no Credite This is evident by Augustine vsing this same Argument agaynst Faustus Manichaeus and opposing the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church Multitude Antiquitie Succession c.
to his bare bragging of the TRVETH Which TRVETH not-with-standing sayeth that Father if you can show so clearlie as it can not bee gayne-sayde it is to bee praeferred to all these thinges where-by I am holden within the Catholicke Church If the name of the Catholicke Church were in this place properlie to bee taken then should Augustine's supposed Case be ridiculous For Trueth can never be found any-where els but within the Catholicke Church taken properlie Where-by it is cleare that the Catholicke Church in this and such other places is taken for the Communalitie of the visible Church which having Trueth should bee regarded But to whose Authoritie not the lesse the cleare Trueth found with never so few Holders is to bee preferred For Wee ought not to consent no not to Catholicke Bishops sayeth the same Father if they holde anie Opinion contrarie to Canonicke Scriptures Where-by is manifest both in what Sense the Fathers reasoned from the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and what force they placed in that Argument and that how-so-ever by them and in that tyme and case of a Church it was not inconvenientlie vsed yet that now in so farre different a state still to vsurpe it in a lyke manner were extreame impudencie This Chrysostome did both fore-see and gaue warning of it that the altered state of the Church behooved to bring men to a more neare and proper Rule of Examination as in his Testimonies aboue cited is cleare In that how-so-ever before that Heresie obtayned place in the Church and the abhomination of desolation stood also in sanctis Ecclesiae locis in the holie places of the Church manie wayes were to discerne the Church as while Trueth helde place in common was Vniversalitie improperlie taken Multitude Consent Succession c yet now after that hereticall contagion hath infected the Bodie in common no manner of way is to discerne the true Church amidst the corrupted communitie of the Church but onlie the Scriptures You are greatlie deceived Philomathes if you esteeme the Church therefore to bee called CATHOLICKE eyther because al-wayes the moste parte of men shall come in to her and embrace the Profession or yet That of such as come in to her the moste parte shall al-wayes holde the Trueth But Shee is CATHOLICKE because her Gates that are nowe casten open to all Kinreds Tongues and Nations that the righteous Nation may enter in And how-so-ever that neyther most part come in neyther of such as are in her is the most part of her or saved yet all vniversallie who are saved must both bee in her and of her And how-so-ever in her most part keepe not Trueth yet no Trueth is but in her If as your Men are al-readie perceiving and there-vpon are gnawing their Tongues for sorrowe the Trueth preached by vs take in short tyme such successe as the Waters of your Euphrates shall be dryed vp and if Multitude and Consent of Nations shall bee with vs will you there-fore yeelde vs the Title of the Catholicke Church If multitude of Holders bee al-wayes a sure Marke of the true Church how sayeth the Scripture That All shall follow the Beast And you confesse That Antichrist when hee commeth shall obtayne Vniversallie Now if in Antichrist his vsurpation Vniversalitie shall bee no Note of the Church how see you not That verie vnjustlie you lay it al-wayes agaynst vs and That what-so-ever Vniversalitie you can alleadge for your Pope it exeemeth him not from beeing that Antichrist except hee cleare him-selfe by better Defences Thus I hope I haue cleared That wee neyther disprooue the Fathers reasoning agaynst Heretickes in opposing to them the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and yet that you haue not there-fore anie eyther Right in their Argument or Ground there-vpon to make CATHOLICKE a discerning Marke of the Church So as your man's mayne Proposition so farre as concerneth this Note of Vniversalitie is still sophisticall and vayne But nowe if it were even a discerning Marke as your Men would make it yet let vs trye howe justlie your Church doeth vindicate it to her selfe and let vs examine your Man's mayne Assumption in that part Philadelphus As you haue dressed his Proposition in that part I thinke all labour agaynst his Assumption were ydle For if CATHOLICKE can bee no discerning Marke of the Church no not anie Marke at all as you haue at length and evidentlie evinced how can it bee Romes Marke Eubulus Yet Philadelphus I will omit no-thing where-by I may possiblie induce Eriphilus to take more of my counsell But in refelling this your Man's Assumption of his mayne Argument where-by hee appropriateth to Rome the Title of the Catholicke Church I must protest Eriphilus that it bee no praejudice to my matter that you doe so confidentlie call your selues Catholickes and your Companie the Catholicke Church else if you will haue this your vsurping of that name to carrie anie weight and that therefore you will haue vs to account so of you I desire of you the same aequitablenesse in our Case That because wee both esteeme and call our selues The Catholicke Church and Catholicke Men that therefore you will holde vs for such Or if you consider that an Argument à dici ad esse concludeth not and that there-fore pertinentlie the Logicians place before their Categories the Distinction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of thinges that are sayde and of thinges that are Then let vs lay aside what eyther you of your selues or wee of our selues doe partiallie speake or arrogantlie arrogate and let vs trye what is true of vs both Philomathes Your Protestation is most aequitable For a bare Clayme except it bee instructed can make no Title Eubulus Then Philomathes in that part of your Poet's Ryme which is inscrybed CATHOLICKE and which you did lastlie reade besides the Proposition which I haue refelled hee assumeth That the Note of Catholicke or Vniversalitie conveaneth properlie to the Church of Rome Which false Assumption hee seeketh to sustayne by foure Reasons the first of which hee concludeth thus What Companie did take in hand and accordinglie first performed the publishing of the Gospell thorow the Worlde and converted all Nations to the Fayth that must bee the Companie to which the Title of CATHOLICKE or VNIVERSALITIE properlie belongeth and that Companie is the Catholicke Church But the Church of Rome onlie did both vnder-take and performe this There-fore the Church of Rome is the Catholicke Church and to her properlie that Note belongeth Now heere some Poëticall inspiration hath transported your man to giue vs such whether a definition or description of Catholicke as till now none ever heard of Wee esteemed as I haue shewed that the Catholicke Church had beene that companie of what-so-ever Tyme Place or Nation which in the communion of one and the same Spirit joyned to their Head CHRIST doe make vp the fulnesse of His mysticall Bodie whether in the Heavens triumphing or as yet heere in their course fighting
whollie there-to my Bookes passing so commonlie in the Countrey yet because in this Marke as in the toppe of your strength you glorie most I will GOD willing in few words vnfolde your Errour This then Philomathes is the Major or Proposition of your Argument The Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible Philomathes And you haue al-readie as I thinke granted it neyther see I though you would recall your word what goodly you can say against it Eubulus I am to recall nothing of that I haue sayde but yet I must cleare in what sense this your Position is to bee admitted for pulling your men from their ordinarie Starting-Hole of Aequivocation For how-so-ever I will still grant that in some respects the Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible yet I will denye your Proposition if from a restrict Case you draw it to an absolute Assertion because in some consideration the Church is invisible And to cleare this In respect of the matter of the Church which is Men and in respect of the common outward forme in the publicke common Ensigne of Profession worship we confesse the Church to bee and al-wayes to haue beene visible But in respect of her inward forme the purpose of Grace where-on chiefelie the Trueth of the Church hangeth she is invisible And the LORD knoweth who are His. Schooles doe call the one Rationē Signi the other Rationē Beneplaciti And seeing it is an Article of our Faith to belieue the Church and that Fayth is of things which are not seene it followeth of necessitie that in some and that a most principall respect the Church is invisible For to be believed to be seene can not consist Yea this is so evident a trueth as Bellarmine is forced to confesse it these are his words Melius dico in Ecclesia aliquid videri aliquid credi videmus enim eum coetum qui est Ecclesia sed quod ille coetus sit ipsa vera CHRISTI Ecclesia non videmus sed credimus that is I say better that in the Church some thing is seene and some thing is believed for wee see that Companie which is the Church but that that Companie is the selfe true Church of CHRIST we see not but belieue it The one cōsideration discerneth Christians true or false from open Idolaters and Heathen men the other distinguisheth true Christians from outward professours onlie commō worshippers Now as these distinct Cōsiderations should be sophisticallie confounded so you see Philomathes that your Propositiō taken absolutelie were deceitfullie false Philomathes Even so much as you grant will serue me for concluding of mine Argument so as I neede not impugne your Distinction or disadvow ought that Bellarmine sayeth I pleade but that the Church is ever visible Ratione Signi as you speake that is that the true Orthodox externall worship and worshippers haue beene al-wayes visible For it must bee some externall Signe falling vnder Sense and outward perception which must bee a Marke of the Church as you haue evinced agaynst vs eve◅ by our Bellarmine's suffrage and there-vpon did bereaue vs of our first Marke of CATHOLICKE or VNIVERSALITIE Eubulus As you even modifie your Proposition Philomathes yet it implyeth a deceit which you bewray by your owne Glosse That is say you that the true and Orthodox Worship and Worshippers haue al-wayes beene visible Which if you doe meane in this Sense that al-wayes by the common Ensigne of publicke Profession Ratione Signi it might ever haue bene discerned where the true Worship and true Worshippers were and might haue beene seene I will heartilie yeelde you it But if he◅e-by as your Men pleade you would signifie that all-wayes and in common lawfull and true Worship and lawfull and true Worshippers haue so farre obtayned borne swey as what-so-ever in common helde place in the Church that was to bee esteemed Trueth then I still deny even your modified Proposition And it is still one and the same Fallacie wherein before in the Mark of Continuance you did fall and which at length I elided there In my Distinction Signi Beneplaciti I tolde you even now That by the visible Ensigne Christians in common good or bad or Orthodox or otherwayes were discerned from Forraigners and Heathen men Now heere-vpon to inferre That by the common visible Ensigne in the cōmunitie of Christians true Orthodox Worshippers or true Orthodox Worship are discerned from false and adulterous both vnder the same common Ensigne you may see how chyldish Sophistrie it were If Satan had but one way of assayling the Church namelie by open and avowed Hostilitie and if none but lawfull and Orthodox Worshippers were vnder it then had you reason to make the cōmon Ensigne of Visible Profession a sure Marke not onlie of Christians in common but even of true Christians al-so at least of lawfull outward worship But seeing that both by Scripture and many folde Experience we know that by no meane he hath so effectually prevayled as by transforming him-selfe in an Angel of Light vnder pretence of the common Ensigne to adulterate all lawfull vvorship of necessitie for discerning the true Church or approoved lawfull Worship from the Abhomination of Desolation both of them in sanctis Ecclesiae locis vnder one and the same Ensigne of Christian Profession wee must advert not onlie whose Hornes are pretended but also whose Mouth speaketh So as still you may see that even Visibilitie must bee reduced vnto and examined by our onelie demonstratiue Marke which in the beginning of our Disputation I layde downe Philomathes I loue so greatlie to bee resolved especiallie in this so mayne and maynlie controverted a Poynt as I will come farder with you than I know our Church will allow mee and giue you this That even Errour might possiblie haue taken place in the whole Church in common which Case I did not obscurelie put at the beginning of our Conference about this Marke yet seeing wee accord in this That CHRIST hath ever had a true Church and seeing that you yeelde mee this al-so That the same is al-wayes visible in respect of the matter there-of MEN and externall forme of Profession which is of necessitie a certayne trueth in so farre as not onlie with the Heart wee belieue to Righteousnesse but also with the Mouth wee confesse vnto Salvation How-so-ever it eyther hath or might haue fallen that most part were misscarried and that Adulterous worship and Worshippers haue had chiefe Rowme and beene most conspicuous and visible Yet how can you denye but some number at least behooved to be al-wayes of lawfull Worshippers and holding the Orthodox Fayth vvho both in their persons and in their Worship were visible even in tyme of greatest Corruption Eubulus Your vpright Dealing and desire of Resolution Philomathes maketh mee to let that freelie with you which with others I would perhaps haue longer stucke vnto For bringing you then to your Wishes I graunt
but first in health healthsom vigour next by degrees contracting sicknes at length heavilie infected affected afflicted with that disease whereof you Eriphilus are dangerously sick Philomathes hath somwhat tasted also now is convalescing through the Medicine of the Word Spirit and alyke in all these cases was ever is visible seen also according to her distinct conditions in diverse tymes Neyther haue wee another Church or a new Church as your Doctors would perswade the Simple but the same Church a renewed Church Neither haue we forsaken the Vnitie Cōmunion of the Church within which wherof we stil are but we haue forsaken Babel in the Church which hath ◅firmed her selfe agaynst al Cure For howsoever the sicke Bodie was the Church yet the Sicknesse oppugning and wasting the lyfe there-of was never the Church and al-be-it in it yet never of it Now Eriphilus you see I am farre from dallying and am come to more playne Dealing than perhaps well pleaseth you Philomathes Verilie Eubulus I can not denye but your Reasons are sound and solide and your Distinctions are subtill But it seemeth exceeding strange that anie such Case and so long a tyme should haue befallen the Church of GOD which maketh mee yet to suspect that your Argumentes are more out of subtiltie of Logicke than according to the Veritie of the Matter and that how-so-ever they evince indeede clearlie a Possibilitie of such a Case yet that anie such Case in trueth was they will not conclude And it were a rash Conception so to thinke of holie Church So that according as I sayde before you seeme still to reason but A posse ad esse from Possibilitie to Reall existence which will not necessarilie follow Eubulus I confesse Philomathes that the Case is and will seeme strange to anie not acquaynted with the cleare course of Scripture and the LORD His wyse and wonderfull Dispensation clearlie fore-tolde there-in and fallen out accordinglie For the workes of GOD are wonderfull and Hee is marvelous in the Case of His Saynctes As great is the Mysterie of Godlinesse so al-so is that of Iniquitie And without true illumination to know the Scriptures of GOD none ever shall attayne eyther to the healthsome Knowledge of the one or happie Discoverie of the other But Philomathes seeing you confesse That I haue clearlie evinced the Possibilitie of such Apostasie in the Church as where-by Errour may take place in common and that yet not-with-standing GOD may verie well preserue Trueth and true and lawfull Worship and Worshippers al-be-it in common vnperceived and considering the manie and capitall Poyntes where-with so manie famous Churches now so long tyme charge your Church of Rome I aske you If in this Case you thinke her well defended with the pretended Impossibilitie of Erring Or if shee hath not great reason both to suspect what possiblie might befall her and carefullie to descende to an exact Tryall whether it hath so befallen her or not Philomathes Certaynlie I thinke the weyght of so great Poyntes as are in Controversie to-gether with the Challenge of so manie Churches requyre no lesse than that Matters bee condignlie tryed and examined and that a prowde Denyall will not justifie anie in such a Case Eubulus Well Philomathes and in so clearlie evinced a Possibilitie of Apostasie as requyreth a condigne Tryall whether thinke you is it the surest way to put the stable Trueth of GOD revealed in His Worde to this inaequitable and vnsure Condition as eyther to approoue it selfe by the Multitude and Continuance of Holders who yet may erre or then to bee rejected Or rather to laye for a sure Ground That seeing it is Trueth there-fore it ought to subdue all Myndes and take place agaynst all Praejudices of Praescription Praerogatiue of Holders Tymes Places or Persons Because it dependeth not on the vnstable Humours of Men who are but naturallie Liars and may bee deceived But is in it selfe so cleare as beeing admitted purelie to pleade for it selfe it will sufficientlie approoue and justifie it selfe agaynst all howe stronglie so-ever grounded Errour and all eyther Qualitie or Multitude of Mayntayners or Praescription of Tyme In short Philomathes whether ought the Trueth of GOD to bee subject to Men or ought all Men to bee subject vnto it And which of these two Reasons conclude strongest and on which may a Christian Soule best rest This hath long had place and Approbation with most Men and there-fore is the Trueth Or this is GOD His Trueth there-fore it ought to haue place even agaynst all praejudice what-so-ever And how-so-ever it hath appeared to haue beene perished from amongst Men yet certaynlie it hath remayned all-wayes Philomathes Verilie I can not denye but that it were a sacrilegious remeritie to subject the Trueth of GOD to Man al-be-it agayne in the Question what is that Trueth I thinke the judgement of the Church and what hath long bene held of Her should be much regarded and not rejected without great and verie cleare Reasons Eubulus That I yeeld you Philomathes and truelie if in the present Poynt of our Disputation we had or could bring no more but as you alleadged the Possibilitie of the case where-of no Evidence might bee produced that accordinglie it had fallen out And if my Reasons and Distinctions in this Matter were but from quirkes of Logicke and not according to clearelie-fore-tolde and accordinglie fallen-out Events you had the lesse reason to regard them But besides the Possibilitie which I haue evinced besides the vndoubted Trueth it selfe so clearlie delivered in Scripture as may sufficientlie certifie a Soule that accordinglie the Case hath fallen The holie Ghost for our farder Resolution hath also according to both the Possibilitie and the event in effect agreeable so clearlie fore-tolde the whole particular Case and Course as I may boldlie say to whom it appeareth strange They are yet great Strangers in the written Word of GOD and in such great measure of Light as now in GOD'S singular Mercie is revealed who disdayne to learne what even Artificers in such open and large offer of Grace are holden to know they are worthilie blynded in GOD'S just indignation Wee are not onlie fore-warned by the LORD Him-selfe in the dayes of His flesh and agreeablie there-after by the Apostle Paul of such a common Apostasie in the Church as where-by Antichrist should obtayne a Throne even in the Temple of GOD but also most amplie particularlie and delightfullie vnder most goodlie and significant Types in the Booke of the Revelation the whole course of Storie is plainlie and at length expressed So as Philomathes I haue not alleadged what probablie might be but what the holie GHOST hath playnlie and particulie fore-tolde and fore-warned vs should come to passe and which accordinglie wee see clearlie performed Yo◅ Men are deceived because they knowe neyther the ◅criptures nor the Power of GOD. And I am so farre from seeking subtill Evasions in