Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	people_n	speak_v	word_n	3,971	5	4.1039	3	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20940	A conference held at Paris betweene Father Gontier a Iesuite, and Doctor Du Moulin seconded by the Lady of Salignac. Together with Doctor Du Moulin his answere to Gontier his letter to the King concerning the subiect of this conference. By Peter Du Moulin Doctor of Diuinitie, and minister of the Word of God in the church of Paris. Translated according to the French copie printed in Paris.; Veritable narré de la conference entre les Sieurs Du Moulin et Gontier. English	Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658.; Gontery, Jean, 1562-1616. aut	1615 (1615)	STC 7319; ESTC S111071	14,986	30

vnawares then when I thought of nothing lesse then conferring with him but hee came prepared and furnished with bookes hauing agreed on this conference before hand with the Ladies I am also giuen to vnderstand by the report of men worthy of credit that a few daies after the conference Gontier dining with my Lord the Prince of Conde and my Lord the Duke of Espernon that the Prince askt Gontier as concerning this matter telling him there went a speech abroad thereof which tended little to his praise and that the sayd Iesuite imputed his little resistance to the great noise there was made but especially to the earnest entreatie of an aduocate yet there was no aduocate nor anie stirre but onelie towards the latter end the three first houres being past ouer with a great silence euerie one looking that Master Gontier should speake whilst hee did nothing but turne the leaues of his Concordance and made as though he did write Now to iustifie this which I speake to bee true I call the assistants for witnesses which sate there from the beginning to the end and God knowes that in the discourse which I haue published I haue dealt as faithfully as I cold possible hauing shew'd it ready writen to those which were present at it to the end that if I had forgotten my selfe in any thing they should correct what was amisse yea I haue yet some part of Mr. Gontiers arguments written with his owne hand of the which hee doth not so much as repeat one word in his letter wherein he reduces our conference to a douzen lines not for breuities sake for he breakes out into other vnprofitable discourses but by an apparant shift for in our conference there were two points aboue others that we chiefely handled one whether Bishops were authorized from God to establish Sacrificers for to sacrifice Iesus Christ the other whether it could possibly be prooued that Iesus Christ did offer vp his bloud to God in the Eucharist because that although his bloud were really shedde yet it is not a sacrifice if the bloud be not offered vnto God These two points beeing of such importance how comes it to passe that Mr. Gontier writing to the King doth not satisfie them nor so much as mention a word of them at all did he thinke his Maiesty vnworthy to be throughly informed in the truth of the matter or why doth he frustrate the people of this their expectation And if in the conference hee had not a word to speake heereupon why doth he not yet repaire his credit heerein by his writings vpon farther studie why is he so loth to speake anie more of the passage in Saint Cyprian which is in the 9. Epist of the first booke alleadged by my Ladie Baronnesse of Salignac doth hee not perceiue by this that he hath spoken nothing worth the considering but that a ladie hath spoken that which deserues to be weighed Nay he shewes that he neuer read the place seeing that he produceth it so disguised and which is more saies in the margent of his booke that this is the 66. chapter when Saint Cyprians Epistles are not distinguished by chapters doubtlesse my Ladie of Salignac who hath ten times more learning for a Ladie then he for a Doctor could haue taken him vp for this Saint Cyprian indeed speaks in the place alleadged of alters and sacrifices but by sacrifices he vnderstands the presents which the people offered on the table of which one part was laid aside for the celebration of the Eucharist wherefore in his Sermon of almes he takes vp the rich men which men which came to receiue without offering anie sacrifice Doest thou come saith he to the Lords Table without a sacrifice doest thou take part of the sacrifice which the poore hath offered and in the same ninth Epistle in the honour of the brethren which offer vp offrings as if they did receiue the tithes of fruits Let them not depart from the Altar and sacrifices As concerning prayer for the dead which began to be in vse in the time of Tertullian and of which Saint Cypryan speakes in this Epistle this is a praier which at this daie the Church of Rome doth allowe of no more then wee seeing that then they praied for the Saints and Martyrs and that it shall neuer bee found that any one praied for the deliuerie of soules out of purgatorie but onely for the enfranchisement of soules kept in prison and sleeping in the bosome of peace of which you haue a feeling in your masse where the Priest praies in this manner for the dead Lord thinke on thy seruants which sleepe in the bosome of peace Amongst the number of which the ancient Church doth reckon the Saints who also as they thought in the next age to St. Cyprian should bee purged by fire in the last day of iudgement not exempting so much as the virgin Mary herselfe as wee haue shewed by a great number of proofes in the last chapter of a booke entituled The waters of Silo. Neuerthelesse Master Goutier least hee should haue nothing at all to say doth accuse mee for denying our owne Bible How so because saith hee that when he did alleadge these words vnto me which is shed for vs I said this was to be vnderstood in the future A ridiculous calumnie Rather on the contrary I say that our Bible doth turne the words more faithfully then that of the Church of Rome seeing that it is in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is shed and not shall bee shed as the Bible of the Church of Rome and the masse haue it But it is one thing to aske what is the best translation of the words of Iesus Christ another thing to aske what is the meaning of the words for our translation onely is true but the Romish Bible doth expound the meaning and intention of Iesus Christ which is to promise that his bloud shall be shed for vs on the crosse failing in the turning but not in the drift of his words as if when Iesus Christ saith Ioh. 10. ver 15. I lay downe my life for my sheepe one should translate it thus I will lay downe or leaue my life hee indeed should lay downe the true meaning of his words which although it were true yet ought it not to be inserted in the text Let this suffice for an answer to Master Gontiers letters letters without sinewes without ioynts puft vp with a childishly affected kinde of swelling which we do therfore here pricke to the end we might bring it downe Had he no bodie to present them to but his Maiestie The Pagans in their sacrifices did neuer offer an Ape vnto their gods but these men presume to offer apish to yes to so great a Prince which holds the place of God among vs who being wonderfull in his patience since he suffereth himselfe to be thus serued is no lesse wonderfull in the clearenesse of his iudgement For hee knowes well that

companie Gontier exeused himselfe and said he did it vnwittingly afterward he began to write these words this offring cannot be made vnto the people Afterward he paused vpon it and blotted out that which he had written then passing that ouer he posts to the second article of Du Moulins answere who required him to answere to the first article Gontier answered that he would not answere to it at all and that in his answering he would haue to do with those parts which hee thought most feeblest Du Moulin prest him againe saying that his conclusion was weake whilest that one of his propositions remained still denied Gontier refused againe Some that sate there comming vnto him whilst he did thus delay vrged him vnto it yet he persisted in his refusall but vppon the second article he said that Du Monlin denied his owne Bible which saith is shed and not shall be shedde Du Moul. Answered that our translation was turned faithfully according to the Greeke and that this did proue nothing but that the exposition of the Romish Church which the bibles approued by the counsell of Trent and the Masse it selfe doth carry is false Gont. Gontier then made one of Robert Stephens Greeke Testaments be brought vnto him and for to weaken the authoritie of the Greeke text said that many things there had beene changed and that at the end of the booke there was a table of more then fiue hundred seuerall readings Du Moul. Answered that these diuers readings did not alter the sense at all that all this inueighing against the originall of the new-testament did not help him a iot to proue that which as yet he could not proue to wit that Iesus Christ offered vp his bloud to God in the Eucharist and he called vpon Gontier to proue it Gontier continuing in denying to proue it to him and the disputation being there at a stay all the Ladies to gratifie him entreated them to talke of some other subiect and said that this matter was to deepe for their capacities A new matter proposed ONe of the Ladies therefore requested that these words might be expounded This is my body Du Moulin Answered and said That no man doubted of the truth of these words and that wee should beleeue the Scripture according to the exposition that it carries of it selfe that these words This is my body were thus expounded by the Apostle Saint Paul 1. Cor. 10. chap. 16. vers The bread which wee breake is the communion of the body of Christ An exposition which the Church of Rome doth reiect not beleeuing at all that it is bread nor that we breake bread nor that this bread so broken is the communion of the body of Christ seeing that it is his very body Hereunto adde that the Euangelists do with a ioint consent witnesse that Iesus Christ broke bread and gaue it He tooke bread broke it and gaue it Therewith the Church of Rome denies not beleeuing that hee gaue bread Nay which is more it denies these words This is my body For seeing the word This signifies that which he gaue and seeing that he gaue bread the sense of these words This is my body is This bread is my body the which the Church of Rome denies Gontier on the contrarie opposed against this that Saint Paul had said in the Eucharist that the body of our Lord is broken for vs that the bread whereof hee speakes saying The bread which we breake is his flesh as it is said in the sixt of Saint Iohn The bread which I will giue is my flesh Du Moul. Replied and said that herein Gontier contradicted the Church of Rome which doth not beleeue at all that the Lords body is broken in the Eucharist and asked of Gontier whether he would subscribe to this That the Church of Rome doth beleeue that the body of the Lord is broken in the Eucharist that Gontier by this word Bread meaning the body of Christ makes the words of Saint Paul ridiculous making him to say that the body of Christ which wee breake is the communion of the body of Christ That in that place of Saint Iohn he speakes not at all of the Eucharist but promiseth to yeeld himselfe vnto death as he makes manifest by the words following The bread which I will giue is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world now he did not giue himselfe for the life of the world but in his death Gont. Hereunto Gontier answered nothing but only this that these words I will giue being twise repeated were taken in two seuerall significations Afterward being required to subscribe that the Church of Rome doth beleeue that the body of Christ is broken in the Sacrament He tooke paper and writ Christ hath broken his body in the Eucharist Saint Paul 1. Cor. 11. vers 14. which was not that which was demanded of him Hereupon being required to speake his minde freely and tell in his conscience whether he thought the Apostle Saint Paul did speake truth saying that we breake bread He answered flatly that he would answere no more then he had done alreadie which moued one of the Gentlemen that sate by Master Paupart by name who came in at the latter end of the conference to say vnto him wee haue brought our eares but it seemes you want a mouth This done Gontier being prest a new to proue that Iesus Christ hath offered his bloud to God in the Eucharist forsooke the battaile and being ashamed of himselfe and cleane out of heart retired into one of the corners of the chamber where being all alone he falls a writing what he thought best in a paper apart which when he had shewed vpon the table a little after hee toare in peeces snatching it out of the handes of my Lady of Liembrune who was willing to haue kept it He therefore giuing roome my Lady Baronesse of Salignac succeeded in his place The vpshot of the conference MY Ladies discourse tended to this end I haue said she withdrawne my selfe from the religion wherein I was bred after I came once to the through discussing of the cause I haue spent foure whole yeares in sounding of this I haue looked vpon all the Fathers Latine and Greeke I kept a man of purpose to translate them I haue found that the Fathers of the foure first ages are conformable in all things to the faith of the Church of Rome hereupon I was confirmed in mine opinion and my conuersation hath turned diuerse others Du Moul. Said Madame since you vnderstand that which you do so well giue me leaue to aske you if you do not call vpon the Virgine Mary and if the forme of your praier wherein you call vpon her be not Aue Maria c. yes said she Then Du Moulin said vnto her you do not therefore vnderstand what you do for by speaking thus you thinke you pray to the Virgine Mary but indeed you pray vnto God for her saying vnto