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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A62859	An addition to the Apology for the two treatises concerning infant-baptisme, published December 15, 1645 in which the author is vindicated from 21 unjust criminations in the 92 page of the book of Mr. Robert Baille, minister of Glasgow, intituled Anabaptisme and sundry materiall points concerning the covenant, infants-interest in it, and baptisme by it, baptism by an unbaptized person, dipping, erastianism and church-government, are argued, in a letter, now enlarged, sent in September 1647, to him / by John Tombes . ..	Tombes, John, 1603?-1676.	1652 (1652)	Wing T1794; ESTC R11324	36,211	48

troubles many and is of very frequent occurrence in a place that lead me to speak of it But it seems neither Mr. Marshall nor your self are willing to let any thing passe that may make me odious or ridiculous though you do but shew your own inconsideratenesse and uncharitablenesse the like dealing you use towards me in the following charges SECT. XVII Of the seventeenth Crimination That I am a compleate Erastian wherein reason is given of my doubt that in Scripture no such juridicall Excommunication is appointed as is now contended for YOu say Fourthly to shew how little inclineable he is to joine with the Anabaptists he declares himself a compleat ERASTIAN Sir what I said and to what end I expressed plainly enough in my Apology page 91. The occasion of printing what I conceived was a passage in Mr. Marshalls Defence which he stuffed with all the exceptions he could thrust in against my person but answered little or nothing punctually in the maine points of the dispute which praevarication I may perhaps in time discover also in your dispute chap. 5. of your ANABAPTISME The occasion of speaking in private conference was to shew my sensiblenesse of the misery of the Land by reason of the present differences upon some speech that was moved by some friend of mine as I remember when the Assembly brought into the House of Commons their Petitior desiring power to suspend persons from the Lords Supper for all scandals without restriction and asserted the Presbyterian Government unto which they advised the Parliament to be jure Divino by the will and appointment of Jesus Christ What I spake then and since printed was to shew my compassion of my native Countrey like to be ruined by the violent asserting things disputable to be ure Divino and thereby necessitating men to oppose lest conscience be brought in bondage according to the Apostles warning Col. 2. 20. It was not as you say to shew how little inclineable I am to ●oine with the Anabaptists Nor did I declare my selfe a Compleat ERASTIAN in the words you alleadge at the letters NN out of my Apology as you charge me but only expresse my doubts much lesse did I declare my self a compleate ERASTIAN that is in your sense one that holds with ERASTUS in all things wherein he differs from BEZA in the disputes between them For whereas there are two main points in difference between them Excommunication and the mixt Presbytery Concerning this latter my words in my Apology speak nothing against it but rather for it when I say And if any Assembly of Ministers and Rulers be set up for the better discovery of such as live viciously or do contrary to the Christian faith or worship that a person be not charged with those evils upon uncertain reports I think it agreeable to Gods will 1 Tim. 5. 19. And whereas Mr Gillespy in his Aarons rod blossoming page 249. hath these words Eras●us pag. 175. hath not spared to say that the Magistrate may in the New Testament though he might not in the Old exercise the Ministeriall functior of he can have so much leasure from his other imployments and pag. 315. in very truth the Erastians do oppose not only the institution but the Lawfulnesse and agreeablenesse to the word of God of a Church-government distinct from the civill yet you cannot shew that I hold either of these positions I confesse I have read ERASTUS his Theses Confirmatio thesium but I could not do it so exactly as I would have done it if I had had Beza's book to compare with it I have read that which Mr. Rutherford disputes against Erastus but it doth not satisfy me in that he dictates many things without proof which are most necessary to be proved and proves something by the sayings of Authors that deserve to be examined and many times omits in reciting his Antagonists words that which is either most or very material and makes not his own answers punctual which things Mr. Mather also chargeth him with about another point besides many incoherent and imperfect speeches and inserting things impertinent Besides in this dispute I conceive Mr. Rutherford doth yield that which overthroweth that which he concludeth for As when in his Divine right of Church-government chap. 4. q. 1. page 223. he hath these words It is evident from the text Mat. 18. 15. that Christ speaks of such sins in a speciall manner committed against me or a particular brother which are within the verge of my power or his to pardon as not being yet publickly scandalous which if true then it can be meant onely of personal injuries which alone a private person hath power to pardon and so is not an institution how to correct scandals under that notion which Mr. Gillespy contends so much for in his Aarons rod blossoming book 2. chap. 9. page 295. and book 3. chap. 2. As for his a●gument from proportior Christ did appoint this to be done in case of civill in●uries much more in scandals it hath no strength to impose a thing as by Divine institution upon mens consciences yea it is no better then a humane invention when only gathered by such reasoning such arguments from proportions being weak probations as rightly Mr. Rutherford Due right of Presbyteries chap. 2. sect. 2. page 37. and all Logicians acknowledge that an argument à comparatis is but Topical yea easily overthrown if any disparity be assigned And this is enough though much more may be said to shew that Mat. 18. 15 16 17. is impertinently alleadged though it be one of the chief tex●s urged importunately for Church-government by Prelates Independents Presbyterians even the Assembly it self Advice concerning a Confession of faith chap. 30. art 2 4. to prove a power of excommunicating for sins as scandalous and so all scandals And for the power of the keyes Mat. 16. 19. Mr. Rutherford chap. 3. q. 1. pag. 236. makes the power of the keyes to belong to Church-Rulers that are the Stewards of the house and the d●spensers of the heavenly mysteries but this may be only preaching the Gospel of which the Apostle speaks 1 Cor. 4. 1. which place is impertinently alleadged in the Assemblies confession of faith chap. 27. art 4. to prove neither Sacrament may be dispensed by any but a Minister of the word lawfull ordained the Scripture no where calling the Sacraments mysteries but the doctrine of the Gospel however the Greek Fathers oft call them so As for binding and loosing though I conceive Dr. Hammond hath more exactly disputed this matter in his book of the power of keyes chap. 4. then others yet I conceive it more agreeable to other places in Matthew leaving Mr. Selden to justify his explication in his preface to his book of the Calender of the Jewes out of the Talmudists as he conceives fit as Mat. 23. 4. 11. 28. besides Acts 15. 28. Revel. 2. 24. Luke 11. 46. to draw the Metaphor from binding and

manner of disputing But I must follow you you go on SECT. IV. Of the fourth Crimination that I give a power to unbaptized persons to baptize others IN giving a power to unbaptized persons to baptize others For proof of this you referre the Reader to the letters BB page 111. and there I find one passage of Mr. Marshall● which only declares his own conceit and one passage of mine from my Apology page 54. which speaks not at all of that point but of another whether in any case an unbaptized person may receive the Lords Supper As for that you charge me with I remember not where I have spoken to it in my printed writings But for the thing it self If no continuance of adult-baptisme can be proved and baptisme by such baptized persons is wanting yet I conceive what ma●y Protestant writers do yield when they are pressed by the Papists to shew the calling of the first reformers That after an universal corruption the necessity of the thing doth justify the persons that reforme though wanting an ordinary regular calling which thing I find fully avouched by the Ministers sent to Oxford in their Account given to the Parliament page 28 29. will justify in such a case both the lawfulnesse of a Ministers baptizing that hath not been rightly baptized himself and the sufficiency of that baptisme to the person so baptized And this very thing that in a case where a baptized Minister cannot be had it is lawfull for an unbaptized person to baptize and his baptisme is valid is both the resolution of Aquinas parte 3. q. 67. art 5. and Lanchius an eminent Protestant Comment in Ephes. 5. 26. Loc. 2. part 2. cap. 4. num 21. quaeritu● an is possit baptizare eos quos ad Christum convert● cum ipse nunquam fuerit baptizatus baptismo aquae non dubito quin possit vicissim curare ut ipse ab alio ex illis a se conversis baptizetur Ratio est quia minister est verb à Christo extra ordinem excitatus eoque ut talis minister potest cum illius Eccles●olae consens● symm●stam constituere ab eo ut baptizerer curare Whereby you may perceive that this is no new truth that an unbaptized person ●ay in some case baptize another and he baptize him being baptized of him And if you hold it so hainous a positier you might do well to answer Mr. Spil●●ry his reasons in his book intituled the Sa●nt interest chiefly page 10. which book you cite in the third and fourth chapters of your ANABAPTISME though in your third chapter you mistake in alleadging words as Mr. Spilsberie's which are in the preface to the book made by Mr. Cox SECT. V. Of the fifth Crimination that I make Apologies for the worst of the Anabaptists IN making Apologies for the worst of the Anabaptists even those of Munster And in the margin and the table in the end of your book you say of me He is a friend to the worst Anabaptists and injurious to all who oppose them And for proofe of this you referre the reader to the letters CC where is one passage cited out of my Apology page 31. which hath not a word of Apology or friendship for or towards any of the evil practises of the Anabaptists but you might have read in the next page before a professed abhorring of their wicked practises and judging them worse in them then they would be in others not so baptized As for the words you alledge they contain onely a declaration of my suspension of my judgement concerning some things related of them for reasons there alledged In which suspension I am the more confirmed by your palpably ●●righteous if not malicious dealing with me in these accusations And I conceive your Mr. Marshal's and other Paedobaptists dealing in mis-reporting of me and others will better serve for their Apology then my words 'T is true I endeavour to remove that prejudice against the truth of Antipaedobaptisme which your and other mens bitter writings and preachings create to it in your charging the miscarriages of Muncer and at Munster and some others upon the doctrine it self never considering that now for a long time no such miscarriages are charged upon them justly they live as peaceably as other men their doctrine disclaimes them the like miscarriages have been in removing other evils that are confessed to be such as in the Iconoclasts Antiprelatists c. which you would think it to be unrighteous to charge on those that have sought the removing of Images prelacy and ceremonies Why then do you deale so unjustly with others forgetting that golden rule of Christ Mat. 7. 12. Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you do you even so to them for this is the Law and the Prophets Whereto let me adde that reading lately in Grimstones General History of the Netherlands lib. 9. pag. 442. that the inquistion of Spain advised the King of Spain in these words art 7. They shall hire at our charge thieves and spoylers of Churches and images whose offences shall be by all the world imputed to the rebells by some subtil meanes and so we shall vanquish them I conceived my speech in my Apology page 31. which you interpret as very hainous considerately when I said I do count the story of the Anabaptists to contain in it many things the true reasons of which and the true knowledge of the circumstances concerning them will not appear till the day of the revelation of the righteous iudgement of God And I confesse it makes me somewhat suspicious that in these daies by Jesuiticall Emissaries horrid opinions and unruly practises are vented and attempted to make the party that are for reformation and truth at this day odious to the world SECT. VI Of the sixth Crimination inveighing against the first reformers ANd invectives against the best that oppose them the first reformers For proof hereof you referre the Reader to the letters DD page 111. where is alledged one passage of my Apology in page 32. which hath not a word of invectivenesse against the first reformers much lesse any invective against the best that opposed the Anabaptists at Munster but only in as mild an expression as I could desire a declaration of my opinion that the reformed Churches have beene to blame that they never yielded to reforme Paedobaptisme in a regular way Will not you say the Saxon Churches have been to blame in not taking away of Images out of Churches the English Churches in not removing Prelacy and ceremonies yet you would think he wronged you that should say that in that speech you made an invective against those Churches Yet this is your dealing with me SECT. VII Of the seventh Crimination inveighing against the Assembly at Westminster THe Assembly at Westminister For proof hereof you referre the Reader to the letters E E page 111. where is cited one passage out of my Apology page 106. which hath not

Apparatus de primatu Papae pag. 148. 〈◊〉 primatu Papae part 1. cap. 1. that the government of the Church is {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} ●urati● over-sight not potestas magistracy empire And this me thinks best suites with the Scriptures 1 Thess. 5. 12. 1 Tim. 3. 5. Heb. 13. 7 17. 1 Peter 5. 2 3. SECT. XXI Of the one twentieth Crimination that I hold that the government of the Church belongs to the Magistrate onely YOu add further that I say that the governing of the Church belongs to the Magistrate onely and to such whom he appoints to that service by vertue of a Commission flowing from himself And for proofe hereof you referre the Reader to the letters q q page 113. where you cite a passage out of my Apology page 93 which hath not a word of that you charge me with but onely a declaration of my opinion in point of prudence that the not devolving so much jurisdiction as some desire on a Presbytery doth not so much disadvantage the Church as some conceive for reformation of manners but onely for suppressing the dissenters in opinion who are for the most part the most consciencious and right-hearted For usually the ruling Elders are Magistrates or both teaching and ruling Elders are chosen and act according to their minde and serve their ends And therefore if the Christian Magistrate be good there 's no great losse to the Church concerning the reforming of vicious manners though he Presbytery have not such power as some desire if bad little is done by the Presbytery And for errors in opinion they are scarce ever amended by bare Excommunication for that if there be any number of dissenters doth but usually produce a schisme but by teaching and cleering truth with meeknesse and forbearance one towards another and a freedome to debate things in Synods which is I suppose the proper use of them and not to determine things and impose lawes the persons censured being never heard This I said to allay the heate of men in engaging a Kingdome to warre upon such a cause But because this is onely a point of prudence from experience I leave this to be considered by those that are better acquainted with humane affaires then I am The thing you charge me with is no where asserted by me and therefore in this you also charge me falsely SECT. XXII Of my new way and boldnesse THere are some other things in your book wherein you abuse me as pag. 91. in your margine and table when you put Mr. ●ombes new way and when you say that at this time when so many new waies are in hand I have thought meet to make a hotch-potch of many of them together which is a meer reproachful or scoffical calumny as if what I wrote I did it out of a designe to make a new way of mine own Whereas what I have said I was necessitated to it as I shew in my Apology and was done in pursuance of the Covenant and should have been taken with the right hand by men that are desirous to find out truth especially from one that you term learned and with all his strength and greater diligence then any before him hath sifted a point As for my boldnesse I confesse God hath in mercy to me put more boldnesse and courage into me in this matter then either agrees with my natural complexion or the state of my affaires But if you mean by saying that I am a very bold man that I am one that is of an audacious disposition to be a ringleader in a faction or an attempter of a desperate designe or in any other bad sense which it 's likely you mean you are deceived it being trueth which makes me bold which I am the more bold to avouch to be so because having tryed your strength with my other Antagonists I find that you defend that which I impugne by meer sleights SECT. XXIII Of my silence concerning DIPPING and of the novelty and insufficiency of SPRINKLING instead of baptizing YOu say that you have marked nothing to fall from my pen for the rite of dipping or against the custome of sprinkling And in the margine and the able at the end of your book you say He is a rigid Antipaed●baptist but not against sprinkling But this is more then you could infer from this that I meddle not with this controversy in my writings But though I say nothing there 's enough to be found of that innovation of sprinkling in all sorts of authors Mede in his Diatribe or discourse on Tit. 3. 5. I ●dd● because perhaps some mens fancies are corrupted therewith that there was no such thing as sprinkling or {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} used in baptism in the Apostles times nor many ages after them and therefore it is no way probable that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} in St. Peter should have any reference to the Laver of bapt●sm Salmasius Appar. ad librum de primatu Papae pag. 192. Non enim id {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} est quo hodie infantes initiant non mersio non t●●ctio non lot● non lava●rum nec {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} ut etiam Graeci vocant vox Baptismi Graece significat sed {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} aspersio vel infu●●o aquae The like is in his Epistle ad Colvium pag. 669. Ancient and later writers do generally avouch John Baptists and the Apostles and Ancients use for many hundreds of yeares to have been by dipping or 〈◊〉 under water Salmasius Apparat. ad librum de primatu Papae pag. 193. Tempore Hieronymi omnes Ecclesiae hunc morem observ●bant in baptismo ut ter Caput sub aqua mergerent quibus id sacramentum dabatur Aquinas 3. part 〈◊〉 66. art 7. Tutius est baptizare per modom immer●●onis quia hoc habet communior usus Chanier panstrat Cathol. tom. 4 lib. 5. c. 2. sect. 6. Caeterùm in usu●lementi abinitio immersionem fuisse totius corporis quae vis est {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} unde Joannes baptizabat in flumine deinde tamen mutatam in asse● sionem incertum quando aut unde●f●cto init●o c. The manner of dipping plunging or immersion under water is agreeable to the relations M●● 3. 16. John 3. 23. Acts 8. 38 39. It is acknowledged to be alluded to by Paul Rom. 6. 3 4. by the new Annot. there By Calvin in John 3. 22 23. A Joanne et Christo celebratum Baptismum fuisse totius corporis submersione Calv. in Act. 8. 38. To tum corpus in aquam mergebart Mr. Daniel Rog●r●in Treatise of two Sacraments part 1. chap. 5. 2. Edit. page 77. saith The Greek Tongue wants not words to expresse any o●●er act as well as Dipping if the i●stitution could beare it And sur the Lord meant not that the infant should be sprinckled onely but