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A89832 Deceit brought to day-light: in an ansvver to Thomas Collier, vvhat he hath declared in a book called, A dialogue between a minister, and a Christian: but by his fruits hee is tryed and found to be neither. In which answer his lies are returned for the founder to prove; his errors laid open, read, and reproved, and he found to be the same in deeds which he accuses the Quakers to be in words. / Published in short for the souls sake, that the simplicity may bee preserved from the subtilty, lest any should believe lies, and so be given up to delusion, and bee damned, by a lover of truth, called, James Naylor. Naylor, James, 1617?-1660. 1656 (1656) Wing N269; Thomason E885_5; ESTC R202981 17,493 32

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of Saints And this letter of the Scripture or Apostles writing I deny to be the man Christ Iesus and that it is not the Spirit thy self confesses in pag. 22. in these words where thou sayest to say that the Scripture is Spirit that discovers much ignorance and indeed such look upon it with an idolatrous eye and sayeth further that the Spirit of God is alwayes distinguished from the Scripture My own I prove thus The Man Christ Jesus ascended but the Letter of the Apostles did not ascend nor could before it was written for then it was no letter Again if the writings of the Apostles be the man Christ Iesus then we have part of him visible here on earth and part is lost which few will say Again the visible part of the Apostles writings is paper and ink but so is not the visible part of the man Christ Jesus more might be said which plainly proves that the Apostles writing is not the man Christ Jesus and thou hast confessed they are not the Spirit and yet thou affirms them to bee the absolute rule of Saints and way of conversion so as God may not convert any but by them which he hath said of nothing but Christ himself so that if thou have not set up an absolute rule that is not Christs's and bound God to work by and all people to believe in a way of conversion and salvation that is not Christ neither in flesh nor spirit as is cleerly proved let the truth in all consciences judge and see if the liar bee not fallen into the pit he hath digged for the innocent Further let the wise judge if thou have not hereby concluded all damned who have lived and dyed since the Apostles time and have not heard the Letter written by the Apostles for if all that have been are or shall be converted since the Apostles time must be by their writings then who hath not their writings cannot be converted nor brought to God Thus hath thou limited God to a Bible to convert by and condemned all that have not one or heard one and with such blinde stuff thou goes on to discover our errors but cannot see thy own blindness Further thou hast set up a new way of converting souls then by which Abraham and Enoch and the holy men of God was converted and hath bound God to it for they was not converted by the writings of the Apostles before they was or they that writ them and so art laying another foundation then was preached to Abraham and was the soundation of the Prophets and Apostles who was converted before the letter of the Apostles was and so art he thou tells on who art preaching another Gospel and accursed And now that I have proved thee one who art setting up another way to salvation that is not Christ setting up one to rule that is not Christ and so art Antichrist I shall charge thee therewith till thou repent and shall add this thy false doctrine to the rest of thy lies by which I deny thy spirit to be of God thy book thy lies thy confusion thy feigned words and thy antichristian doctrine and all thou sayest I do declare to proceed from the Spirit of the false Prophet the lyar and slanderer and one that goes about to set up a way and rule absolute which is not Christ and so another Gospel and foundation and no modesty can blame me for charging thy false doctrine upon thy head being first thus plainly proved and haddest thou thus proved before thou had slandered thou had shewed more of Gods wisdome and less of thy own wickedness but the lyar hath been thy tongue for lies like a bow with which thy bowels must be filled yet canst thou not enter the truth but thy arrows are driven back on thy own head And as that spirit of lies hath its enmity against Christ and would set up another so it doth oppose his light which is the light of the world and thou heaps up a deal of confusion to disprove the witness that Iohn bare of Christ Iohn 1. 9. who saith This is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world and this light Iohn came to bear witness unto that all men through him might believe vers 7. and this he saith was in the beginning and Christ saith Iohns witness was true Ioh. 5. 33. but saith the lyar that is but the common natural light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world and is not able to lead to God and thus they who likes thy testimony better then Iohn's or Christ's they may believe thee and deny Christ and his Ministers blinde guides how are you like to tell what the light will do or not do who have been opposers of it ever since it was preached but hath not followed it to the end are you like to know whether it leads did you ever follow it at all if so what evil hath it led you to you confess it reproves and manifests sinne and doth not the apostle preach this for the light of Christ Eph. 5. 13 14. but you have an imagination that Christ is the light onely to inlighten you that call your selves believers but who must inlighten the rest Christ saith I am the light of the world he doth not say I am the light of such a form or such a people who are of a self-separation but I am the light of the world he that followes me shall have the light of life but you who never followed it saith there is not life in following it so your blinde testimony who were enemies to the light of the world stand against the testimony of Christ and the children of light John 8. 12. But saist thou if this be true that Christ lighteth every one that cometh into the world which light being taken heed unto will lead to God then Christ died in vain and in vain hath he said I am the way the truth and the life which is as much as if thou had said if Christ be the light of the world which lighteth every one which cometh into the world and leads to God in vain did hee come into the world to testifie the same in preaching and suffering without which it could not have been manisest and believed But your blindness hath been so cleerly laid open and the light proved even that which is the light of the world to be the way to the Father the truth and the life as I need not say much to thy blinde opposition onely take these two Scriptures and shame with thy blindness who would perswade people that the light of the world is not the way the truth and the life or that there is any other way but the light of the world Joh. 8. 12. Joh. 14. 6. if these be one then art thou blinde and if not one then how should thou speak truth who said I am the light of the World the way the truth and the life
no man cometh to the father but by me and John who saith This is the true light Joh. 1. 9. So now let all judge who have the light in them whether I am in the error who believeth what the Letter saith that Christ alone is the true light the way the truth and the life and that this is the true light that lighteth every one that cometh into the world and so owns Christ of whom the letter testifies or thou who saith The letter is the absolute rule and this light of Christ cannot convert to God without the Letter and so limits God and denies him who was the way before the Apostles was or wrote the letter and would make people believe that the writing of the Letter had taken the office of Christ and were now become absolute in ruling inlightning and converting to God and so you are become Ministers of the Letter and denies the Spirit to be able to convert to God without the Letter and so a contrary Spirit hath possessed you then was in the Apostles who was Ministers of the Spirit and not of the Letter and so contrary fruits are brought forth and this your opposition of the light is but that you may appear to be the blinde guides Christ foretold of and by your fruits you must be known Did ever Minister of Christ preach against the least light of Christ and say it was not sufficient to lead to God or that none should never be converted but by the letter Did ever Minister of Christ preach against Perfection as thou doest and thy brethren who sayes thou doest not believe that Perfection is attainable here thou may as well say Christ is not attainable here nor Faith doest not thou here minister against the end of Christs ministery and that for which he sent them forth which was for the perfecting of the saints and that they might present every man perfect in Christ Jesus Eph. 4. 11 12 13. Coll. 1. 28. and this thou ministers against and sayest thou canst not believe it and adds a lye to thy unbelief saying its an estate no where held forth in the Scripture as attainable here and so would make God a lyar and the Scripture also As for instance God said Iobe was a perfect man Iob 1. 8. 2. 3. Gen. 6. 9. Iob 8. 20. Psal 37. 37. 2 Cor. 12. 9. Phil. 3. 15. 2 Tim. 3. 17. Iam. 3. 2. with other Scriptures too many here to mention which all witness thee to belye God and the Scriptures and to be no Minister for Christ nor believer of his Ministry who art against perfection and cannot believe it this is a fruit of Antichrist none of Chrsts Ministers but they believed it and preached which thou preaches against And so by thy fruits thou art known and thy generation as Christ hath said you should But to cover thy self thou sayest it s the duty of every one to press after perfection so they must press after that which thou believes not nor would have them to believ so they must pres after that which they believe must never attain here What sort is this pressing of which is against faith yet this confusion is thy Doctrine for the Devil knows that if he can but keep them from believing they can never attain whatever their pressing be And this is the devils work to destroy the faith then set people on working yet to confound thyself thou saith in pag. 114. Let every one that hath this hope in him purifie himself as Christ is pure Yet thou goes on to thou and thee and for this would accuse as Pharisees because we use it to a single person and in this thou confounds thy self as in the rest First Thou confessest it to be the most proper and that the Scripture useth it therefore and when thou hast done thou sayest those that speak it in this Nation seem to be barbarous so that by thy confession he that speaks proper to you is a Barbarian yet must we be condemned who speak properly and you justified who have lost your proper understanding through your pride and heathenish customs and with such confused stuff as this thou proves us the most dangerous people in the world but sayest thou Thou is to me as You provided it be not made a matter of Religion hut if it be then thou abhors the ignorance from whence it comes Herein shewing thy self to be like thy father who matters not what men do so that they do it not out of conscience but if out of conscience then he ahhors that ignorance from whence it comes for a tender conscience that takes heed to his tongue the devil abhors for the devil can set the tongue on fire when all members else are wearied with his service provided he make it not matter of Religion what he speaks but if he be so precise that he make conscience of every idle word the devil abhors him for he knows that he that offends not in word is a perfect man so able also to bridle the whole body Iam. 3. 2. For the devil knows that by your words you shall be justified and by them you shall be condemned and for every idle word all must answer at the Day of Judgement And this we know though you have justified your selves and are yet in your careless way without bridle be ignorant of whose Religion will be found vain like your vain talk And further We know your way of ye-ing the proud and thou-ing the poor to be impurity though thou falsly say the scripture uses that language thou to every single person for its property and not for its puriry But what matter what thou sayes who abhors it as ignorance that teacheth to speak properly as matter of Religion but had thy Religion reached to the ordering of thy tongue we had not had such a number of shameless lyes cast upon us by thee as we have in this Book which indeed is little else but a heap of lyes But this know that he that seemes to be religious and bridleth not his tongue his religion seems to be vain Iam. 1. 26. Thou proceeds to tell of our quaking and in that like the rest thou shews thy confusion In thy 38. p thou sayes but falsly It 's a way that never came into the heart of God to bring his people to perfection by when all that do declare the way they came to God witness quaking or trembling and all that knew the Word of God trembled at it And in thy 78. pag. thou owns it in the holy men of God making thy self a lyar but sayes it is different from ours To which I say hast thou seen us both tremble or how canst thou make a difference let the wise judge but that thy busie minde must be medling to speak of that thou knows nought on that thou might shew thy envy consusion how should thou know trembling who knows no word but the letter abhors that which
with in this booke and send thee them backe to the Founder to prove if thou canst or own thy condemnation for a false accuser and by that time thy Lies be sent back the rest of thy book that concerns us will be soon answered Thy lies be such as these First thou sayest that all our principles are delusions That we hold not any one principle of truth truly as it is in Jesus That we forsake the true way decreed of God for the attaining of Justification which is by faith in Christ crucified That we call Justification by faith in Christ crucified carnal That we have set up an other way to attain justification that is by quaking That we have outed Christ in his great worke of Justification That we have trampled under foot the blood of the covenant That we have counted the blood of the covenant a thing too unholy for us to look at for Justification That we disown Christ in his ascention intercession and the works of his Mediatorship That we have found another way to go to God then by Christ Mediator That we disown Christ in his Authority That we will not submit to Christ in his Word That instead of hearkning to the Voice of Christ in Scripture we hearken to and follow after the Voice of Satan That the best we hearken to is but our own deceitful hearts That we call the voice of Satan in our own deceitful hearts the Voice of Christ That we do obey the voice of Satan in our own hearts though contrary to all rules of God in Scriptures That we disown the coming of Christ from heaven That we disown Christ's Kingdome which is the great and blessed promise of the Gospel the faith and hope of Saints That we disown the Resurrection of the dead in the second appearance of Jesus That we disown the eternal life with Jesus Christ That we own our selves to be perfect That we own our selves to be free from sin entred into a state of Justification not by faith in Christ but by our own righteousness That we own neither salvation nor damnation of any person That our principles are but the principles of the old Ranters That the devil hath hemm'd us in with a pretence of our own infallibility That we will not admit of no sober Discourse nor bring our principles to tryal of Scripture That railing Accusations and hiddeous names is the strength of our Arguments for our way That amongst all the false wayes of Satan there is none more pernicious and dangerous then we are That we undermine the whole body of truth That our way makes an end of Christ in his Person Offices Power and being as a man all at once and so makes an end of Justification and Salvation That we make an end of the Authority of Scripture as a rule That we deny the birth from above by the Spirit That we hold it as our great principle that the light that is in all men is Christ That we turn from the light of Christ shining in the Scriptures to follow our imaginations and fancies instead of Christ That we do but talk of the Name of Christ for a juggle and a cheat That under the Name of Christ we stob him That we lay aside the Man Christ Jesus our lord as a thing of nought That under a pretence of Christ within we take an advantage to murther the true Christ That we are guilty of the great and damnable sin of unbelief in Christ crucified for sin the way the truth and the life That we set up another salvation of our own within us That we sacrifice to our own Nets That we proclaim that all that own Justification through Faith in the blood of the covenant are deceived That we own it as a principle not to submit to any word or law of Christ written in Scripture That we trample under foot the Laws and Ordinances of Christ recorded in Sctipture That we judge all those that walk therein to be Enemies That we proclaim our own righteousness and perfection That we condemn the poor humble souls for publicanes that live in a sight and sense of themselves That we shut up the kingdom of heaven and will not go in nor suffer others that are entering That we will not enter unless we may enter by our own righteousness and not by the blood of the covenant That we leave the weighty things of Faith and Obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of Christ undone as vile and contemptible That we make God a lyar That we destroy civil curtesie as God hath commanded it That we level all conditions and relations making all things common upon this accompt That under a pretence of perfection we bring forth a Religion made up of infidelity disobedience hypocrisie pride trampling under foot the blood of the covenant c. That we are guilty of that Hell-born sin of lying and deceit These abominable folshoods with many more such like hast thou uttered out of thy bosome these lyes comes with as much impudence and boldness as though thou should never be called into judgement for them hereafter nor put to prove them now much like to that scolding spirit which sticks not to call thief and whore freely but when they should prove it falls on their own head this is not the first time this venome hath been cast upon us by that brood whcreof thou art yet to us it sticks not it comes no neerer the truth but out of the lyars bosome that it may return upon the lyars head so take these again and prove us whom thou hasr slandered therewith to be guilty as thou hast said or own thy condemnation for a false accuser before God and all the world before whom thou hast slandered us falsly and before his light in thy conscience to which thou art an enemie lest they remain with thee till the dreadful day of Gods wrath against the lyar and his Father And now thy lies being sent back to the founder the greatest part of thy book as to what thou hast writ against us is answered and come to nought so the foundation is discovered on which thy worke stands take away the lye and thou art disarmed But now seeing thou hast falsly charged us to set up wayes to salvation which are not the man Christ Iesus I shall make it appear to be thy own work to set up a way to salvation to which thou would binde men which is neither the man Christ Iesus nor his Spirit And I shall not imitate thee therein by saying thou dost so and so leave it but first I shall prove it and then let it stand on thy head for ever unless thou deny thy error and repent thus I prove it In thy 15 page thou limits the conversion of all that have been are or shall be converted since the Apostles time to that written by the Apostles and left to after-generations and in thy 17 page thou affirms it to be the absolute rule
when it was not seared Is it like that we should be owned by you in making conscience of every word or can you do any otherwise but abhor it who have thus made shipwrack in your selves and this is the fruits you have brought forth since you have set your selves against the Light of the Spirit which led into tenderness and have set up the Letter for the Light and so being become heart-blinde are you grown past feeling into open lying and wickedness as at this day it is seen and lamented And now do not say this is railing accusation and hard terms which is truth but let the light of Christ which you thus hate search your hearts and pass judgement upon you and own it before the Lord and all the world and give praise to the Son from whom the Light comes for you have nothing else will let you see your hearts and the desperate wickedness that lodgeth therein it 's the light that must search it out and reveal it to you and not the Letter you may read in the Letter what deceit was in other mens hearts but it must be within you that lets you see your own the eye of God it is must let you see and search the dark corners thereof which is desperate wicked and you know it not but by the light of the world which lets all the world see their deceits who doth but minde it which light is that the God of this world hates and above all would blind that eye for which end all his instruments are now at work as is manifest to make shipwrack of Faith that is held in a pure conscience and you in the head thereof of which you must repent and returne to you first tenderness wherein you was once growing out of the elements and rudiments of the world to be led by the spirit of the Lamb where ever he goes and not by shadows which are left desolate because of the wickedness of such as have lived therein and look upon circumcision for the continuance whereof the Jewes had more from the Letter then you have for your way of carnal water for it was said it should be a sign for ever but so was it not said of Water-baptism but the contrary and minde what a generation was left in circumcision when Christ led out by his Spirit from that Ordinance a company of envious murtherers lyars and false accusers who set themselves against the way and light of Christ to devour all that followed his light against whom they pretended the Letter and thought they did right and so do to this day and were you not wholly blinde you might read your selves herein and what hath befallen you since you set your selves to this work every day hardness and more blindeness till you be much more mad in mischief then they was and more blinde for they fought against the Light because it led out of their traditions which was after the letter but yon oppose the light when it leads to the sound words in the letter and calls it Pharisaical and self-righteousuess or any filthy Name to make it odious and abhors it if it be but done in following the Spirit so that to follow the spiritual Light of Christ is abhorred by the devil and his instruments though it be in that which they confess is proper and used in the letter which they say is their Word witness thy 57. and 58. pages And yet with all this wickedness and blindness and much more the like unchristian carriage in your fore-head would you binde all to fall down to your tradition you have set up and worship that or else no Christians nor salvation but all the filth of hell must be raked up and cast upon their godly conversation for no other thing but because we cannot cry up that for salvation which cannot save you witness how you are saved from these wickednesses who worship before it further then in your imaginations believing that obeying that Ordinance as you call it you must be saved from hell when you are dead but to be saved from these wicked wayes while you live you never believe nor doth your god teach any such faith so they that are blinde may deny the leading of Christ in Spirit and follow your shadow which can neither save you nor them But if you would have all to worship what you have set up your called ordinance let it appear to all men what is therein mighty to save Is there some betterness betwixt being a captive to the devil in sin under your water and being a captive to sin under the Parish-Teachers water being both out of the true way declared in Scripture only yours a little nearer in the letter but both one in Spirit Power led captive at his wil who rules in them you who are disobedient to the spiritual Light of Christ wil your water save you more then theirs when you both are unwashed from your sin and live in rebellion against God doth your Ordinance then save you But doth it not appear to all the children of light that you are in the state of the Jews who cryed the Temple the Temple when God was deparred then they that was left in it was become abominable to God that which was the house of God formerly was then become a den of thieves and murderers and liars yet was they as zealous for their Ordinances as you are for your water and had as plain Scripture yea and their Ordinances was in the right form and call whereas yours are not as any of the Saints did ever practice in Scripture declared so if you be not stark blinde read your selves and repent and think not to say The Ordinances the Ordinances when you are both out of form and power for if we must believe you for so saying why not the Priests also who cry the same with you both taken on without true form life or power this we may not do who have heard and learned of Christ But this I say to thee and the rest that are joined with thee herein If he be a God you would have us all to bow to let us see what a God he is whether it be the God of Righteousness or the God of this world and Deceit first let us see that by your Ordinances thou thy self be led to repentance and to confess all thy damnable heap of lies thou hast cast on us in thy book in envie against the light and that as openly as thou hast slandered also repent of thy false Doctrine I have proved which thou hast published and decline thy errors therein And all the rest of you deny your selves and the world and conform to Christ leave your filthy pride and covetousness and abominable conformity to men of corrupt mindes for advantage respecting mens persons and maintaining their abominable worships and worshippers therein And you that say you are Ministers prove your selves in all things as the Ministers of Christ in