Ea demum est miserabilis animae seruitus signa pro rebus accipere nec supra creaturam corpoream oculum mentis ad â—auriendum aeternum lumen leuare non posse That is a miserable bondage of the soule to take the signes or Sacramentes as you doe for the thinges themselues and not to be able to lift vp the eye of the mind aboue the corporal creature to perceiue the eternall brightnesse Of adoration he saith Rectè scribitur hominem ab angelo prohibitum ne se aedoraret sed vnum Deum sub quo esset ei ille conseruus It is very wel recorded in the Scriptures that a man was prohibited by an angel to adore him but only God vnder whom he himself was a fellow seruant vnto God And therefore he saith Ecce vnum Deum colo Behold I worship adore none but God and thence he deriueth the name of religion Quod ei vni religet animas nostras Because it relieth our soules on him alone So that veneration you may giue to sacramentes adoration you may not and yet you finely conuey the one into S. Augustines text iointly with the other as if they were both fouÌ„d in his words which they are not Phi. He saith singular veneration Theo. You say so but he sayeth not so His words are Veneratione singulariter debita with that veneration which is due onely or singularly to this Sacrament Phi. And what is that but adoration Theo. If you might be iudges it should be nothing else but S. Augustine sayth Not to be contemned is the veneration due vnto it Contemptum solum non vult cibus ille that meate misliketh onele contempt that is either to bee dayly receiued without regard or to be still refused vpon pretence of vnworthynesse And that being the case of which S. Augustine disputeth your cunning serueth you in steede of examining theÌ„selues before they receiue it which S. Augustine meaneth to set the people not at all to receiue it but to fall downe and adore it with diuine honour in Christes place which is as wilfull a contempt of his ordinaunce and as shamefull an abuse of his sacramentes as can be committed Phi. The same father in an other place saieth of the Sacrament No man eateth it before he adore it Theo. Are you not desperatly set thâ—t to defile your selues with open idolatrie will force the Fathers to fit your â—umours against their owne speeches S. Augustine saith of Christes fleshe which hee tooke of the virgine Marie Nemo illam carnem manducat nisi prius adorauerit No man eateth that fleshe of Christ vnlesse hee first adore it you make no more bones at the matter but strike THE FLESH of Christ out of Sainct Augustines wordes and referre adoration to the corporall creature which the Priest holdeth in his fingers Is not this trowe you sounde dealing in the greatest mysteries of our saluation and imminent peril of your damnation purposely to shut your eyes least you shoulde see the truth or agnise the rashnesse of your newe founde adoration What haue Sainct Augustines wordes to doe with your adoring the mysticall signes when hee directly nameth the flesh of Christ which is both eaten with the spirite and adored in the spirite yea the very eating of it is the adoring of it since it is not eaten but by beleeuing hoping and reioycing in it which are the chiefe branches of Gods diuine honor Phi. As though the fleshe of Christ were not really closed in the forme of bread and corporally eaten with the mouth of man Theo. One errour must needes drawe on an other or rather your reall and carnall presence is the groundworke of all your errors and abuses in the Masse Phi. The deniall of it is the high way to all your heresies and blasphemies against the doctrine of the church and for our partes till you leaue that wee looke for no better at your hands Theo. Looke to your own feete least whiles you watch our hands your legges slip into the pit of destruction Phi. Wee bee past all feare of that Theo. And so be those that are past all recouery but yet for the sauing of other mens soules if not of yours we will first weigh the proofes of your adoration after not sticke to suruay the partes of your Transubstantiation Go on therefore with your former authorities Phi. S. Ambrose saieth We adore the flesh of Christ in the mysteries Theo. Uerily and so doe wee but the mysteries and sacramentes themselues wee doe not adore neither did Sainct Ambrose euer teach any man to adore them Phi. I see you mistake vs. You thinke we adore the formes of bread and wine where in deede we doe not but rather we adore Christ the sonne of the lyuing God and second person in Trinitie in those mysteries as Saint Ambrose sayeth or as wee speake more vsually vnder those formes of breade and wine Theo. I mistake you not I knowe you adore that which is locally and really inclosed within the compasse of your host and chalice supposing it in matter and substance to bee the glorious body of Christ apparelled with accidents of bread and wine as whitenesse roundnesse sweetenesse moystnesse and such like proprieties of bread and wine but your foundation wee say is false and therefore your building must needes bee ruinous Christ is present in the mysteries not by the materiall substaunce of his body closed within the formes of bread and wine but by a diuine and spirituall vertue and efficience not mixing 〈…〉 but entering the hâ—rtâ— of the faithâ—ull and nourishing them with his spirit and grace to eternall life the elementes abiding in their proper and former essence and substance And therefore when you adore them as if they were Christ in nature and substaunce which in trueth they are not you worship not Christ but giue his honour to creatures and in steede of washing your sins away by the death and blood of Christ you kindle the wrath of God against you by mystaking his sonne and adoring the elementes with diuine honor in lue of Christ. Phi. Tush we regard not these wordes of yours we haue assurance from Christ himselfe that it is his body and so long wee passe not for any thing that you can alleadge or obiect against vs. Theophil But if you misconster his wordes to make a deade and corruptible creature to bee the seconde person in Trinitie and giue it that honour which is due to the glorious and immortall God what assuraunce can you haue that Christ Iesus will put vp this reproach at your handes and not auenge himselfe on you as on proud idolateâ—s Phi. Are you well in your wits to vrge vs so often with open Idolatrie where as wee shewe you so plaine proofes of our defence Theo. Plaine quoth you In good faith they bee such as no meane Scholer woulde stumble at Christ you proue
to this infection might perceiue the way to recouer their former health temperatly that the enimy should not thinke himselfe rather illuded then aunswered Which if it please your most excellent Maiestie to like alow that it may passe to the hands of your people I trust in Christ that such as haue any feare of God before their â—yes and care of life to come will hold themselues satisfied and the rest be better aduised before they runne headlong into that extreeme perdition of bodie soule and horrible downefall of disobedience and infidelity to God and their Prince The king of kings and Lord of Lordes blesse and preserue your Maiestie and as hee hath begun a good and glorious worke in you and in this Realme by you so continue the same by lightening you with his holie Spirit and defending you with his mightie arme as hee hath doone from the daie that hee chose you to bee the Leader and Guider of his People that you maie long keepe them in trueth and peace by the assistaunce of his grace to the praise of his glorie increase of the Godlie and griefe of his and your enimies Euen so Lord Iesus Your Maiesties most humble and dutifull subiect THOMAS BILSON THE GENERALL CONTENTS of euerie part The first part Examineth all the proofes and places of the Iesuits Apologie their forsaking the Realme and running to Rome what aid the Fathers sought at Rome and how the Bishop thereof in all ages hath beene resisted the intent of his Seminaries and vertues of his Clergy The second part Prooueth the Princes supreme power to commaund for truth within her Realme and the Pope to haue beene a duetifull subiect to the Romane Emperors Ecclesiastical Lawes for eight hundred yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour iudge The third part Refelleth the Iesuits reasons and authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes the bearing of armes by subiects against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies and iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings Princes conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thousand yeres after Christ and none agnised by anie Christian Prince vntil this present day The fourth part Sheweth the reformation of this Realme to be warranted by the woord of God and the auncient faith of Christs Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to bee nothing lesse than Catholikes To the Christian Reader IT is some time since good Christian Reader that lighting on the Iesuits Apologie I receiued the same with purpose to refute it if the matter so imported Perusing it ouer I found it curiouslie penned with picked termes and beautified with plausible and popular persuasions reasons but as for substaÌ„ce or learning or weight of proofe I saw nothing in it that should occupie a meane Scholer the space of two daies Laying that booke therefore aside I determined at mine own choice and libertie to handle the matters there most impugned I meane the othe and the Princes supremacy in such sort as men of meane capacitie abused by their secret whisperinges and open raylings might plainly perceiue both the Princes power to commaund for truth to be lawfull and good and the Iesuits cauils impugning the same to be vaine and childish As I was in this resolution saw no cause for that I should refute no direct aduersarie to make more hast than both health which was not great businesse which I cannot want would suffer me there hapned an iniurie to bee offered to the inheritance of the College where I am by a false title deriued from before the foundation of the house and so strengthened on euery side with auncient deedes and euidence that the forgerie was hard to bee discerned and harder to be conuinced but by infinite searching in the muniments of many churches and Bishopricks as well as in our owne and re-examining sundrie large and laborious commissions which they had taken out before my time to testifie the keeping and iustifie the deliuering of those suspected deedes and ligiers To the deâ—ecting and impugning of this no person was or would be vsed I speake for the paines and not for the skill but my selfe the cause was so huge the comparing of the circumstances and contrarieties both of deeds and witnesses so tedious the proofe so perplexed and intricate and the daunger so neerely touched the whole state of the house I was forced for two yeares to lay all studies aside and addict my selfe wholy first to the deprehending and then to the pursuing of this falsehood No sooner had I breathed from this vnwoonted trauell and betaken my selfe to my former purpose but my happe was to light on the Iesuites Defence of English Catholikes not hauing the Authors name but in order of writing and phrase of speech resembling right D. Allen the maker of their Apologie Looking earnestly into the contents thereof I perceiued the pen-man to haue such confidence in his tongue that hee doubted not but to ouerrule the world with words his pretensed policies So far he wadeth in other mens causes and common wealthes So boldly he pronounceth what himselfe pleaseth of Popes and princes and of their titles Counselles Lawes and actions neither alloweth hee any man to bee religious or catholike but such as him-selfe liketh and euerie-where hee sheweth a speciall care to smooth and stroke his holy Fathers indeuors and censures actes and iudgementes warres and wickednesse with termes of the greatest deuotion and reuerence subiecting all things vnder his feete inuesting him with both swords and suffering no man king nor Cesar to haue assurance of honor or life longer than he kneeleth downe and adoreth the image of the beast In this maiestical course surrly conceit hee goeth on thinking he can captiuate kingdomes with the volubilitie and intemperauncy of his tongue which is so swift to furnish a lie that he disdaineth the basenesse plainesse of trueth The saucinesse and egernesse of that Defence I was then and am yet persuaded to ouerskip as hauing learned that princes affaires and actions are aboue my vocation and wholy without my profession neither doe I thinke it lawfull for priuate men rashly to speake or possible for them vprightly to iudge of Princes doinges vnlesse they be fully acquainted with the secretes and circumstances of the things which Princes vse not to commit to many nor to any but those that are of their counsell I therefore then did now do determine to leaue this peremptorie prater whosoeuer he be to his own vaine knowing that besides open rightes and titles secret preuentions are often vsed betweene Realmes and sometimes reuenges which Magistrates by lawful meanes may procure Onely the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all his skill learning
It is so long since I saw you Philander that I had almost forgotten you I thought I should remember your face but this apparell made me doubt of you Philand Euen he Theophilus and though you haue descried me where I would not be knowen yet I trust for olde acquaintance you meane me no harme Theo. If you be as far from doing euill as I am from wishing you euill I dare warrant you for any hurt you shall haue but what meaneth this strange attire are you wearie of a studients life that you fall to ruffling in your latter daies Phil. Not choice Theophilus but feare driueth me to this I take small pride in going thus disguised Theo. What neede you feare if you be faultlesse true men hide not their heades Phi. Not where truth may take place but where falshood ouer beareth all it is time for true men to hide their heads except they wil loose them Theo. Is your case so desperate that you stand in danger of loosing your head Phil. Not my deserts but the rigour of your lawes giue me iust cause to feare that which so many of our side haue felt Theo. Your frindes neuer felt the least part of that they did to others neither haue they cause to complaine but of too much ease Phil. You haue spoyled them of their goods cast them in prisons among theeues hanged them as traitours call you this ease what could they feele worse what could you do more Theo. Whom meane you the Northren rebels or Irish conspiratours that were thus hardly dealt with Phi. As though you knew not whom I meant Their heads and quarters pitched in rowes on your gates and bridges are to this day witnesses of their constancie and momiments of your cruelty Theo. Though I can gesse you only ean tell whom you meane Belike the Iesuits that lately suffered for Treason Phi. Treason was obiected to them for a colour to make them odious to the people but in deede religion was the very cause why they were condemned for would they haue recanted their faith they should neuer haue bene brought to the barre Theo. It may be Pardon was offered them so they would recant their Trayterous assertion that Popes at their pleasures may depose Princes and discharge their subiects from all obedience which Christian mildnes in seeking their amendment and shewing them so much fauour doth not quite them from the lewdnes of their enterprise The Princes mercy is no proofe of their innocencie But in sadnes Philander are you since your departure become a Iesuite that you take their part so freshly Phi. The question you aske mee is very dangerous considering the straitnes of your lawes Yet promise me that you will not bewray me and I wil be plaine with you what I am I loue not to dissemble much lesse to deny my vocation Theo. Promise me likewise that you wil attempt nothing against your duetie to God and your Soueraigne and I wil do the best I can for your safety Without this condition I may not yeeld to your petition Phi. I require no more but will you performe that Theo. None so deceitfull as those that be most mistrustfull Hauing our former acquaintance for a warrant and my promise now made you for your better securitie why feare you Phi. Blame mee not if I bee somewhat curious in disclosing my selfe life is sweete and that nowe must I put wholly into your hands which is no smale aduenture Theo. Were your life in my hands as it is not you should well perceiue wee delight not in blood Howbeit you cast greater perill than you neede The lawes of this lande doe not touch you so neere for entering the new found order of Iesuits neither for infecting the simple with the leauen of your doctrine but onely for making deuotion a cloke for sedition Leaue your vndermyning the Princes right state by these secrete and suttle meanes I see no daunger of death that is toward you Phi. If I be taken with any practise against the Prince I refuse no kind of torment onely from preaching publishing the Catholique faith I neither can nor wil be drawen Theo. Wel profered if it be wel performed In deed true Christians euer endured neuer displaced Princes no not when they were tyrants heretiques for God is not serued with resisting the sword which himselfe hath ordeyned to cherish the good chasten the bad but with duetiful obedience to Magistrates when their lawes agree with his in case their willes be dissonant from his thē is he serued with meekenes readines to beare and abyde that which earthly powers shall inflict And this was the cause why the Church of Christ alwayes reioyced in the blood of her Martyrs patiently suffering the cruell rage both of Pagans and Arrians and neuer fauoured any tumult of rebelles assembling themselues to withstande authoritie Phi. Tell vs that we knowe not this we neuer doubted of Theo. Then if your late Iesuites were sent hither as Pioners to make ready the way for the Popes bull that should disherite the Prince and giue her crowne to an other what say you were they iustly condemned for Treason or no Phi. You shall neuer be able to proue them sent to that end Theo. I doe not as yet say they were but what if they were doe you thinke them Martyrs or Traytours Phi. I am sure they were not For I my selfe came in the same message with them and knowe what charge was giuen both to them and to me that in no wise we should meddle with matters of state Theo. I thought all this while by the counterfaiting of your apparell and earnest defending of Iesuites that you were of that crewe Phi. You vrge mee so farre that I can not conceale it The truth is I am of their societie and haue so been euer since my last going beyond the Seas and am now sent backe with others to labour the conuersion of this Realme and to reconcile men to the Catholique fayth and Apostolique Sea for the sauing of their soules Theo. I am the more sory for it if sorow would helpe your lighting on them was vnhappy your ioyning with them is vngodly Phi. You do the men great wrong to carie that hard opinion of them without cause for my part I protest I neuer mette with a more religious vertuous and learned company than the Iesuites are Theo. You take light occasions to set forth your owne prayses as if it were a poynt of perfection to commend your selues Phi. Though we striue to excell others in learning and vertue which we lawfully may yet bragge we not of it Theo. You need not The maker of your Apologie doth it for you whose fingers ytched till he came to the comparing and aduancing of himselfe and his fellowes in this insolent manner Our wittes sayth he be of God in as plentifull measure as theirs our foundation in all kinde of faculties requisite
wils you be deceiued not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God which maketh those willing at last which were vnwilling at first Did the Niniuites repent against their willes because they did it at the compulsion of their king What needed the kings expresse commandement that all men should humbly submit themselues to God but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message had they not bene terrified by the kings edict This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder yet being once cōpelled to come in they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter against their willes When Petilian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue S. Austen replieth To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced but yet by Gods iustice or rather mercy The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you but forbidden to doe euill Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes are they not those which beare the sworde as Paul speaketh not without cause being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill Who list to be farther satisfied that Christian Princes may compel their subiects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word and punish the refusers let him read at large the places aboue cited or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God and kept in your Crocodiles teares Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes much easier than that which your selues practised on others neither is this our question what rites you consented vnto but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Princes authoritie let him and his forefathers assent to what they list except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion but goeth now for a Romish recognisance Phi. Our griefe of heart is much encreased either when we looke into other States and Countries as Germania Suitzerland Suecia Boemia and the like where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres yet lightly none bee forced so but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie Canton towne Church or Parish yet they may haue it neere them in an other as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places adioyning for the Catholique seruice in their dominions So did Constantius the Arian Emperour Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria which Valens God plagued afterward because he would not suffer the same at Antioche Valentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan Theo. Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme which God in plaine words detesteth and with sore plagues reuengeth Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were reproued of Elias for that error He did not say why permit you not those that will to the Lord those that list to Baal but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs If the Lord be God follow him forsaking al other if Baal be God get you after him Since then it is confessed on both partes yours and ours that there can bee no God saue the Lord and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie but is so ielous of it that hee wil be serued and onely serued with all our heart mind and strength these things I say being out of question I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE with establishing two religions in one Realme the first authorized by Christ bequeathed in his testament to the Church the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures For if God be trueth they which presume to worship him with lies as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe serue nowe not God but the deuill a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate What are saith Vincentius strange Gods but strange errors which the scriptures so cal figuratiuely for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God saue that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe It is the vilest basest kinde of idolatrie when men worship their owne fansies obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine Then may not Princes winke at corrupt vitious religion which is an inward ghostly worship of Idoles seeing no man therefore no Prince can serue two masters the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ in respect of their royall vocation consisteth in making lawes for Christ which if they doe likewise for Antichrist it can not be salued but that they serue God and Mammon or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersarie Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed his sonne refused his sacraments prophaned his word exiled and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith haruest of sinne murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates who must thinke that silence prouoketh sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor which
Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
For Noli te extollere sed esto Deo subditus exalt not thy selfe but bee subiect to God you say Exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure and suppresse the rest which should declare when a Prince exalteth himselfe aboue his measure to wit when he is not subiect to God The next wordes which you bring When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishops are not found Ibidem as you quote them that is Epistola 33 ad sororem but Epistola 32 ad Valentinianum Imperatorem And In causa fider In a matter of faith which Ambrose addeth you leaue out in the first sentence though you double it at y◠latter end These scapes I will winke at and come to the words themselues Thinke not thy selfe to haue any Emperial right ouer diuine things Neither do we say Princes haue for an emperial right is to commaund alter and abrogate what they think good which is lawful neither for men nor Angels in diuine matters Palaces are for Princes and Churches for Priests this was truely saide if you know not the reason Churches were first appointed for publike praier and preaching which belong to the Priests and not to the Princes function And for that cause Bishops were to teach Princes which was the right faith Princes were not to teach the Bishops much lesse to professe thēselues iudges of trueth as Valentinian did when he said Ego debeo iudicare I ought to bee iudge whether Christ be God or no for that was the question between the Arrians and Ambrose and that was the word which S. Ambrose stoutly but wisely refused When we say that Princes be iudges of faith bring S. Ambrose against vs and spare not but we bee farther off from that impietie to make men iudges ouer God than you be Doe you not make the Prince iudge of faith Theo. You know we do not Phi. Produce not vs for witnesses we know no such thing Theo. Your own acts shall depose for vs if your mouthes will not If we make Princes to bee iudges of faith why were so many of vs consumed not long since in England with fier and fagot for disliking that which the Prince and the Pope affirmed to be faith Why at this day doe you kill and murder elsewhere so many thousands of vs for reiecting that as false religion which the kings princes of your side professe for true If wee make Princes iudges why do we rather loose our liues than stand to their iudgemēts Your stakes that yet be warm your swords that yet be bloodie do witnes for vs and against you that in matters of faith we make neither Prince nor Pope to be iudge God is not subiect to the iudgemēt of man no more is his trueth Phi. What power then do you giue to Princes Theo. What power so euer we giue them we giue them no power to pronounce which is trueth Phi. What do you then Theo. Neuer aske that you know Haue we spent so many words and you now to seeke what we defend But you see S. Ambrose maketh nothing for you And therefore you picke a quarell to the question Phi. S. Ambrose would not yeeld Valentinian the Emperour so much as a Church in Millan and when hee was willed to appeare before the Emperour in his consistorie or els depart the Citie he would do neither Theo. You care not to fit your purpose though you make S. Ambrose a sturdie rebell You would fayne find a president to colour your headynes against the Prince but in Ambrose you can not his answere to Valentinian was stout but lawfull constant but Christian as the circumstances of the facts will declare Valentinian a yong Prince incensed by Iustina his mother and other Eunuches about him willed Ambrose to come and dispute with Auxentius the Arrian in his consistorie before him and hee would bee iudge whether of their two religions were truest and which of them twaine shoulde bee Bishop of Millan Auxentius or Ambrose otherwise to depart whither he would To this Ambrose made a sober and duetifull answere in defence of himselfe and his cause and gaue it in writing to Valentinian shewing him amongst other things that he was yong in yeres a nouice in faith not yet baptised rather to learne than to iudge of bishops that the consistorie was no fit place for a priest to dispute in where the hearers should be Iewes on gētiles so scoffe at Christ the Emperour himselfe partial as appeared by his Law published before that time to impugne the truth As for departing if he were forced he would not resist but with his consent he could not relinquish his church to saue his life wtout great sinne And because Auxentius his companions vrged this that the Emperour ought to be iudge in matters of faith Saint Ambrose followeth and refelleth that word as repugnant not onely to the diuine Scriptures but also to the Romane lawes Conclusus vndique ad versutiam patrum suorum confugit de Imperatore vult inuidiam commouere dicens iudicare debere adolescentē catechumenū sacrae lectionis ignarum in consistorio iudicare Auxentius driuen to his shiftes hath recourse to the craft of his forefathers seeking to procure vs enuie by the Emperours name and sayth the Prince ought to bee iudge though hee bee yong not yet baptized and ignorant of the Scriptures and that in the Consistorie And to the Emperour himselfe Your father a man of riper yeeres sayde It is not for mee to bee iudge betweene Bishoppes doeth your clemencie nowe at these yeeres say I ought to bee iudge And hee baptized in Christ thought himselfe vnable for the weight of so great a iudgement doeth your clemencie that hath not yet obtayned to the Sacrament of baptisme chalenge the iudgement of fayth whereas yet you knowe not the mysteries of fayth No man shoulde thinke mee stubburne when I stand on this which your father of famous memorie not onely pronounced in woordes but also confirmed by his Lawes that in a cause of fayth or ecclesiasticall order hee shoulde be iudge that was both like in function and ruled by the same kind of right For those be the words of the Rescript his meaning was hee woulde haue Priests to bee iudges of Priests Then follow the wordes which you cite When euer didst thou heare most clement Emperour in a cause of fayth that Laymen iudged of bishops Shall wee so bend for flatterie that we should forget the right or duetie of Priests and what God hath bequeathed to me I should commit to others If a Bishop must be taught by a Layman what to follow let a Lay man then dispute or speake in the Church and a Bishop be an auditor let the Bishop learne of a Layman But surely if we suruey the course of the diuine Scriptures or auncient times who is there that can deny but in a cause of faith in a
cause I say of fayth Bishops are wont to iudge of Christian Emperours not Emperours of Bishoppes And where Valentinian required Ambrose to yeeld his Church depart whither hee woulde for yeelding his Church his answere was Nec mihi fas est tradere nec tibi accipere Imperator expedit Domum priuati nullo potes iure temerare domum dei existimas auferendam Allegatur imperatori licere omnia ipsius esse vniuersa Respondeo It is neither lawfull for mee to yeeld it nor expedient for you O Emperour to take it The house of a priuate man you can not by right inuade doe you thinke you may take away the house of God by violence It is alleaged the Emperour may do what hee will all things are his I answere Doe not burden your selfe O Emperour to thinke you haue any Emperiall right ouer those thinges which bee Gods Exalt not your selfe so high but if you will raigne long bee subiect to God Palaces pertayne to Emperours Churches to Priests The Church is Gods it ought not to be yeelded by mee to Cesar. The temple of God can not bee Cesars right I can not deliuer that which I receiued to keepe in Gods behalfe to heretiks Would God it were apparant to me that my church should not be deliuered to the Arrians I would willingly offer my self to the iudgement of your highnes Would God it were decreed that no Arrian should trouble my Churches and of my Person pronounce what sentence you will With my consent I will neuer forgoe my right if I bee compelled I haue no way to resist I can sorow I can weepe I can sigh teares are my weapons Priests haue only those defences by other meanes I neither ought nor can resist Flee forsake my church I vse not lest any thinke it done to auoyde some sorer punishment If my goods bee sought for take them if my body I will be ready Will you put me in Irons or lead me to death You shal do me a pleasure I wil not gard my self with multitudes of people I wil not flee to the altar to intreat for life but wil gladly be sacrificed for the altars of god Depart Ambrose would not thereby to saue himselfe leaue his Church to Arians the Emperour should banish him or els he would not forsake his flocke I could wish you had not sent me word to go whither I would I came euery day abroad I had no gard about me You should haue appointed me whither you would Now the rest of the Priests say to me there is no difference whether thou be content to relinquish or thy selfe yeelde vp the altar of Christ for when thou doest forsake it thou doest deliuer it If a strong hande remoue me from my Church my flesh may bee caried thence my minde shall not Betray my Church I cannot but fight I ought not These answeres bee full of humilitie and as I thinke full of that affection and reuerence which a Bishoppe should beare to a prince Wee see the groundes that Ambrose stood on resolued rather to suffer any death than by his consent or departure to betray the Church of Christ into the handes of Auxentius the Arrian His meaning was not with violence to resist or with pride to despise the yong prince but either to die with his flocke or at least to bee remoued from his flocke by the princes power without his own cōsent because it were sinne in him to resigne or leaue the house of God as a pray for heretikes vnlesse he were thereunto compelled and forced against his will Phi. I thereby gather that Princes may not meddle with Churches without the Bishoppes assent Theo. You may thereby well collect that Bishoppes were better to giue their lyues than yeelde their churches for Christ to bee blasphemed in except they bee constrained Phi. The Bishoppe refused though the Prince commanded Theo. Hee refused to put his consent to the Princes will but hee resisted not the Princes power Phi. No thankes in that hee could not Theo. Yes great thankes in that hee would not when all the citizens of Millan tooke part with him and the souldiers denyed to wayte on the Emperour to any other church but onely to that where he was and greater obedience in that hee confessed he should not Aliter nec debeo nec possum resistere otherwise than by teares and sighes I neyther ought nor can resist and likewise hee commended the people for saying Regamus Auguste non pugnamus wee make request O Soueraigne wee make no tumult So that Ambrose in these wordes which you bring doth not generally dislike that Princes should meddle with religion or make Lawes for Christ but first affirmeth which wee confesse that Princes be no iudges of faith and next auoucheth that his refusall to deliuer his Church to the handes of Arrians was no stubburnnes against the Prince but obedience to God whose house it was and that he could not consent to betray the same to Gods enemies but hee should highly displease and offend God in so doing By this you may proue that wee must obey God before man and that al Pastours ought rather to giue their liues than their consents that heretikes shoulde inuade their flockes but against the Princes authoritie to commaund for trueth and punish error by the wordes or deedes of Ambrose for ought that I see you can conclude nothing Phi. Hee reporteth and commendeth the wordes of Valentinian the elder the father of this yong Valentinian Non est meum iudicare inter episcopos It is not for me to iudge among Bishops Theo. He gaue the yong Prince to vnderstand what a weightie matter it was To sit iudge betweene Bishoppes in cases of fayth and not among Bishoppes as you translate it in that his father a man of ripe yeres great wisedome and good experience refused this as a burden too heauie for him And what if the question betwixt the christians and Arrians were so intricate that Valentinian durst not take vpon him to discusse or determine the same is that any reason to proue that princes may not establish trueth and abolish falshood by their publike Lawes Phi. Was that the matter wherein Valentinian refused to bee iudge betweene the Bishoppes Theo. Euen that if you dare beleeue the storie of the Church For The Bishops of Hellespontus and Bithinia sayth Sozomene and as many as professed the sonne of God to be of the same substance with his father sent Hypatianus in a legacie to Valentinian the Emperour to request him that he would permit them to meete in a Councell to correct the Doctrine which trobled the Church When Hypatianus came to him declared the petition of the Bishops Valentinian aswered For me that am a Lay man I think it not lawful to search curiously such deepe matters let the priests that haue charge of these things meete where they like best among themselues This fearefulnes of Valentinian
right you may conclude hence a iust allegation or a ciuill sedition in the Romanes but no depriuation of Princes by the Pope If by Lewes the thirde you meane Lewes the sonne of Boso for him you may meane and by your indistinct speaking you driue vs to ghesse at your meaning he with violence gate some dominion in Italie putting Berengarius to the worst and by negligence lost not onely that hee gate but his eyes also which hee might haue saued with staying at home mary the doers of it were Berengarius his enimie and the citizens of Verona which betraied him mention of the Pope there is none except you thinke it vnfitte for his holinesse that anie treason shoulde bee wrought without him for that his◠See is so well practised in them Of this Lewes Otho sayth In the yeare of our Lord 905. Lodouike the sonne of Boso getting the Empire expelled Berengarius and hauing the whole kingdome of Italie at his becke dismissing his armie went to Verona with a small traine where being betrayed by the citizens that sent for Berengarius from the place where hee was in exile hee was caught and his eyes pulled out And after that Berengarius helde the kingdom of Italie togither with the Romane Empire So haue wee three Lodouikes ech of them in sundrie writers surnamed Lewes the thirde and not one of them deposed by the Bishop of Rome Henrie the fourth was the first that was troubled with the Popes presumption to depose Princes but hee was so farre from taking it that hee put the Pope besides his cushinne and had him deposed from his triple Crowne not onelie by force but also by iudgement and sentence as good or better than that which the Pope pronounced against him Respect whether you will the cause or the manner of their proceeding eche against other Phi. You crake of this Emperour For that in fine by armes hee droue the saide Pope out of his Sea and placed an Antipape that is to say one so opposite to Christes Vicar as Antichrist shall bee against Christ which by armes and patronage of this wicked Emperour vsurped and occupied the Apostolike throne against the true Pope Gregorie the seuenth Theo. We crake not of Princes as you doe of Popes neither do we defend them in open wickednes as you doe Popes in their pestilent disorders and outrages only we say neither your holy father with his proude claime nor you with your smoothe tongues may take from Princes their Crownes without warrant from God of whome they haue their power and by whome they are exalted to their Royall dignitie And therefore if you will play the proctour for Pope Hildebrande in that attempt of his to depriue Henry the fourth leaue wastful woords and spiteful speach and go to the matter Scoffes and taunts are soone cast and recast without any paynes or praise Phi. Because this good and notable Pope was not able in fine to resist the Emperours forces the which Emperour as all the histories of that tyme recorde was a most wicked sacrilegious simoniacal and hereticall person the aduersaries of Gods Church doe triumph as the Libeller here doth ouer the blessed man as Herode might haue done ouer Iohn Baptist whose admonition was taken in so euill grè that it cost him his life as also the executing of the Churches sentence which is Gods hath doone to many a Prophet and Bishop in the worlde Theo. If to call Gregorie the seuenth Hildebrand which was his proper name and whereof neither hee nor you shoulde in reason bee ashamed be a note of rebellious heretiques as you terme them what is it for you to call a Prince on whom by Gods Lawe you are forbidden to rayle a most wicked sacrilegious simoniacall and hereticall person What is it to say that al the stories of that time record the same and to produce none As for Iohn Baptise you may vse his name when you follow his workes Herode was an incestuous Tyrant yet did not Iohn Baptist take the scepter from him nor arme his subiects against him but warned him of the breach of Gods Lawe which hee wilfully committed and the punishment which would ensue at Gods handes farther practices against Herode Iohn Baptist had none and therefore you might as well haue yoked Belial with Christ as Hildebrand with Iohn Baptist. But you must be suffered when other things faile you to haue glorious words which is a right Herodian affection Phi. By the euent of things whosoeuer measureth the right of cause will make a good religion and a good defence of the execution of iustice For so most tyrants might bee iustified for a tyme against all the Saintes of God This Gregorie say they was in fine banished by the Emperour And so was Saint Chrysostome by Arcadius and Eudoxia and dyed in banishment as Gregorie the seuenth did yet they were but homely Christians that woulde iustifie the Emperours and condemne S. Chrysostome Theo. Wee measure not the right of causes neither by the sequele nor successe of thinges for then the Saintes of GOD from the first beginning of the worlde shoulde haue had an euill cause since their successe hath alwayes beene to loose their liues for bearing witnes vnto the trueth Wee make it no reason that Hildebrandes cause was euill because in the ende hee was banished Wee all this while haue stoode with you on this point that neither Hildebrand nor any other Pope had or hath right to depose Princes Your commendation of Hildebrand and accusation of Henry the fourth if both were true are litle to this purpose vnlesse you will reason thus the Pope was a good man and the Prince an euill Ergo the Pope might depose the Prince which were a very rediculous conclusion Phi. The Popes right to depose Princes wee haue prooued before Theo. Not yet that wee see Your authorities came very short of it your examples shorter Some shiftes and sophismes you haue here and there offered vs but so weake that children woulde hardly bee deceiued by them Those you thought being destitute of other helpes to strengthen with examples and hauing searched all the corners you coulde for a thousande yeeres after Christ you finde not one till you come to Gregorie the seuenth who did attempt it but coulde not effect it and lost his Popedome for enterprising it And here you slip from the right of the cause to the praise of the Person which is vtterly impertinent to this purpose For what trowe you is euery thing good that good men doe May you not so commende any vice What sinne is there but some good man otherwise hath fallen into If to measure thinges by their euents bee no sure way to iudge rightly of them what is it to alleage no better grounde for the Deposition of Princes than the bolde attempt of the Bishoppe of Rome Were the Person commended not by the assentation of his
and hee that was kept off was no Prince either by discent or by choice but one that aspired to the crowne by killing the king and abusing the Queene in most haynous manner In which case if the Patriarch had offered his life rather than suffered such an one to approch to the Lords table he had done but his dutie Phi. Would you now haue bishops rebell Theo. You thinke so much on it you can not choose but talke of it I said no such thing the common wealth had to doe with the crowne and not the Bishoppe that if they gaue hee might not denie but as for diuine seruice and Sacraments the Bishoppe might well dâ—me them to that infamous adulterer and murderer Phi. You may perceiue by that which the Patriarch of Constantinople sayd to Isaac Commenus what sway the Bishop of that citie bare in crowning the Emperour He told the Prince plainely that as by his handes hee receiued the Empire so if he gouerned not well by him it should be taken from him againe Theo. We may perceiue by that which you bring both the pride of the Patriarch and the falshood of your dealing This Bishoppe was a ringleader in the rebellion wherein Michaell Stratiotes the former Emperour was displaced and Isaac Commenus exalted in his steade and when the newe Prince happened to denie the prowde and seditious Patriarch a request which hee made hee brast out in great rage and tolde him that as hee had holpen him by his wicked conspiracie to the Crowne so would he by like meanes helpe him from it An example as fit for your doinges as you coulde possibly light on that a Priest should tel his Prince he would thrust him out of his seate by the head and shoulders Philand If hee gouerned not well hee woulde take the Crowne from him Theo. If hee gouerned not well is your addition and misconstruction of your Author the storie lieth as I report it The woordes of Zonaras are Neque verò Patriarcha superbia illi cedebat sed imperare illi volebat aâ— si quando non impetrasset quae petierat egrè ferebat increpabat minabatur denique quemadmodum imperium illi contulisset ita se idem illi orepturum The Patriarch yeelded not a iote in pride to the prince and if at any time hee missed of the requestes which hee made hee disdayned and cast it in the princes teeth threatned that as hee had promoted him to the kingdome so hee woulde take it from him Nowe in what sort hee with others conspired for Isaac Commenus against Michael Zonaras sheweth in this page before And in trueth hee was ledde with the same spirite that Hildebrande was liuing at the same time with him and sitting at Constantinople whiles the other raigned in Rome and had the very same euent of his pride which Hildebrande had the Greeke Prince being not able to beare the Patriarches insolencie and therefore banishing him where for spite and anger hee shortly after dyed Philand Likewise when kinges that before were infidels doe enter by Baptisme into the Church they submitte their scepters to Christ and consequently make them-selues subiect and punishable if they reuolt from their fayth and promisâ— Theoph. When Kinges by Baptisme put on Christ they submitte their scepters and soules to the woorde and will of Christ but what this auayleth the Pope I see not except you assume that your Holy Father is Christ and so the subiection professed by Kinges vnto Christ must be yeelded to your Romish Antichrist which were very farre fet and skant worth the cariage Phi. If they reuolt from their fayth they bee punishable by reason of their former subiection vnto Christ. Theo. Yea verily and that not onely in this worlde if it please him but in the next also with euerlasting paines if they repent not Philand If they bee punishable in this world then may they be depriued Theo. Doth Christ vse no punishmâ—â—t but depriuation or euer read you that in this life Christ sententially deposed any Prince though hee might haue punished many Phi. I meane they may bee depriued by men if they reuolt from their promise made to Christ. Theoph. Your owne meanings bee your best argumentes otherwise I see no strength in this reason Princes are punishable if they breake their fayth giuen to Christ Ergo by men and if by any man ergo by the Pope This is leaping logike of all that euer I heard Philand They submitted them-selues in Baptisme to bee punished by depriuation if they kept not fayth and trueth with Christ. Theo. If you shoulde not eate till you prooue that assertion you shoulde fast a lent not of dayes but of yeeres It is a wicked error to say that any priuate man in Baptisme must or doeth submitte him-selfe to the violent and corporall correction of his flesh or to the temporall losses of land or life which you would fasten on Christian Princes by vertue of their Baptisme Philand Vppon these conditions and none other Kinges bee receiued of the Bishoppe that in Gods behalfe annoynteth them which othe and promise being not obserued they breake with GOD and their people and their people may and by order of Christ his supreme minister their chiefe Pastor in earth must needes breake with them heresie and infidelitie in the Prince tending directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiectes and notoriously to the annoyance of the Church and true religion for the defence of which kinges by GOD are giuen Theoph. Againe you leape from the baptising to the crowning of Princes and because at their admission into the Church they promised to renounce the Dyuell and his woorkes but not their swoordes and scepters which are of GOD you range to their coronations and tell vs in great state that the Bishoppes which annoynted them in Gods behalfe did not receiue them to bee kinges but on these conditions as though it were in the handes of Bishops to receiue and reiect Kinges and to prescribe them conditions of taking and leauing the Crowne Faine you woulde encroche vpon Kinges by the Bishoppes act and oyle that in the ende you might possesse the Pope with a full interest to dispose their Crownes at his pleasure but such as bee wise will looke to your fingers and keepe you short of that desire The solemne rites of coronations haue their ende and vtilitie but no direct force nor necessitie They bee good admonishmentes to put Princes in mynde of their duetie but no increasements of their dignitie For they be Gods annointed not in respect of the materiall oyle which the Bishoppe vseth but in consideration of their power which is ordayned of the sword which is authorized of their Persons which are elected by GOD and endued with the giftes of his spirite for the better guyding of his people If oyle be added it is but a ceremonie representing that to
to be subiect or free from the kinges power The people likewise tooke Ieremy when hee had prophesied against them and said thou shalt die the death These places haue perswaded some and might leade Zuinglius to think that the people of Israell notwithstanding they called for a king yet reserued to themselues sufficient authority to ouerrule their king in those thinges which seemed expedient needfull for the publike welfare else God would not punish the people for the kings impietie which they must suffer might not redresse But yet in the 15. of Ieremie there is no such cause pretended their consent rather and zeale to please Manasses in his wickednesse their generall shrinking back from truth so lately professed vnder Ezechias for feare of his cruelty that did next succeede were the causes why God would punish both the king and the Realme For God neuer required of the people to displace their Prince that we can reade but onely that they should rather yeeld their liues than forsake his truth when any tyrant offered to deface his glory Phi. By Zuinglius decision the people may depose the Prince Theo. Zuinglius doth shew the causes for which magistrats may be iustly deplaced by those that haue authoritie to doe it but hee giueth no priuate man leaue to take the sword or offer violence to any Prince though he be a tyrant againe he speaketh of Rulers elected and limited not succeeding and absolute In which ease by the Lawes of sundrie Realmes much is permitted which otherwise may not bee presumed Phi. Nay hee speaketh of all sortes of Princes whether they bee made by succession election or vsurpation Theo. In that Article hee mentioneth them but hee neither resolueth any certainetie of them or alloweth any force to bee vsed against them Of hereditarie succession these be his wordes Mihi ergo compertum non est vnde hoc sit vt regna per successiones quasi per manus posteris tradantur I confesse I haue no skill in this how kingdomes should be deriued to posterity by succession as it were by haÌ„d If then a tyrant chosen by no man get a kingdom by inheritance which hath his foundation I know not how ferre hunc oportet sed quomodo imperitabit he must be indured but how shall he gouern His answere is Regnum aliquo sapiente administranduÌ„ erit the kingdom must be gouerned by some wise maÌ„ that shal assist him If a tyrant succeeding may not be repelled from his inheritance but suffered and assâ—sted then by this confession may he not be deposed And that no violence may be vsed to any Prince promoted by succession or election his words are plaine Disputing quo pacto mouendus sit officio by what means a magistrat may be displaced he saith Non est vt eum trucides nec vt belluÌ„ tumultis quis exitet quia in pace vocauit nos Deus Thou maist not kil him nor leauie warre or any tumult against him because God hath called vs in peace Phi. How then shal he be displaced since no Prince will yeeld his crown without force Theo. He answereth hic iam labor est this is the difficulty but his coÌ„ceit is that they which chose him should denouÌ„ce him vnfit to weare the crown if he yeeld it is wel if not they must offer their liues in so good a cause as to dy for iustice truth Phi. In faith that were folly first to prouoke a tyraÌ„t with depriuatioÌ„ after to lay down their necks to his furie The. Yet that is his resolution for he addeth Qui hoc ferre noÌ„ possunt ferant insolenteÌ„ tyrannuÌ„ They that caÌ„ not abide to die for the defence of iustice let theÌ„ tolerate the pride of the tyraÌ„t Phi. Are you of that minde Theo. You are not to seeke after al our reasoning what I thinke I haue meetely well repeated it And as for Zuinglius though he measure all Nations by the Germanes proportion other kingdomes to the Empire in that respect speake somwhat strangely yet he iustifieth no tumult against a tyrant much lesse rebellion against lawfull and absolute Princes which is the case at this instant in question betwixt vs. That touching rebellion now for succession as I muse at his wordes so I like not his iudgement when he saith he can not tell whence it is that kingdoms should go by successioÌ„ The Romane Empire it self from Constantine the great and before till the time of Otho the third that is 700. yeares and vpward went by successioÌ„ saue where the right lines failed or seditioÌ„ disturbed the heire The greatest kingdomes of the West partes as Fraunce England Spaine Scotland and others haue alwayes gone by succession since they were diuided from the Empire and neuer by election The like I might say almost of all prophane kingdoms and Monarchies where not election but successioÌ„ hath preuailed But omit them God him selfe gaue this to Dauid as a great blessing of the fruit of thy body will I set vpon thy throne this was it which was denied to Saull for reuenge of his disobedience Thou hast done foolishly for the Lord had now established thy kingdom vpon Israel for euer All the recompence which Iehu had for his zealous seruice was this Because thou hast deligently executed that which was right in mine eies therefore shall thy sonnes vnto the fourth generation sit on the throne of Israell So that succession in kingdoms hath not only the consent of al ages Nations but the manifest subscription of God himself that it is his speciall fauor blessing to continue the successions of godly Princes Phi. And what our english Protestantes write or thinke of this matter you shal well perceiue by their opinion and high approbation of Wiats rebellion in Queene Maries dayes wherof one of your chiefe Ministers called GoodmaÌ„ thus speaketh in his treatise intituled How superiour Magistrates ought to be obeyed Wiat did but his duty and it was the duty of all others that professe the Gospell to haue risen with him maintenance of the same His cause was iust and they all were traytours that tooke not part with him O noble Wyat thou art nowe with God and those worthy men that died for that happie interprise Theo. It is much that you measure the whole Realme by one mans mouth and more that you drawe the wordes which he spake from the meaning which he had to warrant your rebellions The partie which you name at the time wheÌ„ he wrote tooke Queene Mary for no lawful Prince which particular and false supposal beguiled him made him thinke the better of Wyats war but our question is of lawful Princes not of violent intruders And therefore Goodmans opinion which himselfe hath long since disliked is no way seruice-able for your seditions Ph. Hold you Queene Mary for an intruder Theo. Not I but he
well erre in their generations before vs Phi. They kept the steppes of their fathers which if you doe you shall not erre Theo. This is the next way round about to come to the wood For how will you proue that euery generation which hath beene these 1500. yeares since Christ hath precisely kept the rules and limites of their forefathers Phi. You can not shew when or where they swarued Theo. If wee could not our ignorance in that point is no great securitie for your faith The defection of euerie age from their fathers might be either not marked or not recorded or since oblitered and therefore reason you proue your faith to haue descended from age to age without alteration before we beleeue it to be the faith of your fathers But what meaneth this that you prescribe that way to iudge of religion and the seruice of God which God himselfe prohibiteth Phi. Doth God forbid vs to follow our fathers Theo. In as plaine wordes as can be spoken with a tongue by the mouth of Ezechiel he saith Walke ye not in the preceptes of your fathers neither obserue their manners nor defile your selues with their idols I am the Lord your God walke in my statutes and keepe my iudgementes By Dauid he saith Let them not be as their fathers were a disobedient and rebellious generation a generation that set not their heart aright whose spirit was not faithful vnto God And dehorting them from their fathers steps To day saith Dauid if you wil heare Gods voice harden not your harts as in the day of coÌ„tention as in the day of temptation in the wildernes where your fathers tempted proued me though they had seen my workes Fourtie yeares did I contend with that generation and saide they are a people that erre in heart they haue not knowen my wayes By Zacharie he saith Be ye not as your fathers vnto whome the former Prophetes haue cried saying Thus saith the Lord of hostâ—â— turne you now from your euill waies and from your wicked workes but they would not heare nor harken vnto me saith the Lord. And what you count deuotion humilitie for the people to follow their fathers that God himself calleth defection conspiracie I haue protested vnto your fathers euer since I brought them out of the land of Aegypt to this day saying obey my voice Neuertheles they wold not obey nor incline their eare but euerie one walked in the stubbernesse of his wicked heart And of the children doing as their fathers did he saith A coÌ„spiracie is found among the men of Iudah and among the inhabitants of Ierusalem They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers that refused to heare my wordes With what face then can you deale so earnestly with the simple subiectes of this Land to regard neither God nor his word but only to runne the race of their Elders seeing God so straitly commaunded the children of Israel to beware the pathes and presidentes of their forefathers Phi. We must beware their wickednesse Theo. Then may they be wicked and so no paterns for vs or any others to follow Phi. The Iewes were wicked Theo. What charter can you shew that christians shall not be the like Phi. Hell gates shall not preuaile against the church of Christ. Theo. No more did they preuaile against the chosen and elect of Israel but the greatest number and gaiest men are not alwaies the church of God The foundation of God standeth sure and hath this zeale the Lord knoweth who are his Of his elect which are his true church our Sauiour hath pronounced it is not possible they should bee deceiued the rest haue no such priuilege yea rather the holy Ghost forewarneth that all besides the elect shall bee deceiued Our Sauiour our saith There shal arise false Christes and false Prophetes and shal shew great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they should deceiue the verie elect The rest then which are not elect they shall deceiue And so S. Paul speaking of the verie same deceiuers addeth whose comming is by the working of Satan with all power and in all deceiueablenesse of vnrighteousnesse among them that perish because they receiued not the law of the truth that they might be saued And therefore God shall sende them strong delusion that they should beleeue lies that al they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And S. Iohn speaking of the beast that made warre with the Saintes had power ouer euerie kindred and tongue and nation saith Therefore all that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life So that the visible church consisting of good bad elect and reprobate hath no such promise but she may erre only the chosen of Christ which are the true members of his body properly called his church they shall not erre vnto perdition and those if you could point them out with your finger the people might safely follow otherwise if you set men to follow the rest of their fathers be they neuer so many neuer so graue neuer so godly to your seeming you bid them take the wide gate and broade way that leadeth to destruction because there were many that entered it before them Phi. Will you make vs beleeue that our fathers are perished Theo. Who are perished is not for vs to pronounce They were his seruants that iudgeth iustly neither haue we to medle with their doome but to looke to our owne yet this we can assure you that many be called and few chosen And therefore if you aduise the people to imitate the multitude of their fathers you teach them the right way to hell And though wee may not iudge of your fathers yet knowe you for a certainty that God is not afraide to iudge them and condemne them if they refused his truth as you do Neither is it any such daungerous doctrine to say that our forefathers haue sinned and displeased God as you woulde make it the godly haue alwaies confessed it of their fathers and not spared to tell the wicked so much to their fates Dauid slandered not his forefathers when he said We haue sinned with our fathers we haue done wickedly Our fathers vnderstood not thy wonders in Aegypt neither remembred they the multitude of thy mercies but rebelled at the Sea euen at the red Sea Daniell knewe what he pronounced when hee confessed O Lord to vs belongeth open shame to our kinges to our Princes and to our fathers because wee haue sinned against thee Ezechiah was not ashamed to say Our fathers haue trespassed and done euill in the eyes of the Lord our God and haue forsaken him and turned their backes And loe our fathers are fallen by the sword Iohn told the Pharisees to their faces their fathers were vipers and
and euerlasting God Howe are you not afraide to defend the worshipper when God accurseth the maker of any such carued or molten Image as being an abomination in his sight Doth your cunning or conscience serue you to gaine-say the manifest voice of God himselfe speaking by his Prophet To whom now will you liken me that I should be like him saith the holy one Phi. We be not so foolish as to thinke the shape of a mortal man resembleth the incomprehensible substance of the deitie Theo God graunt you be not Doe you then acknowledge that euery likenesse made with hands to represent the God of heauen is an Idole Phi. Euerie likenes what meane you by that Theo. I meane the likenes of man woman or of any other creature in heauen or earth Phi. It is somwhat hard to call the Image of God an Idol Theo. To call that an Idol which man maketh for an Image vnto God since God himselfe refuseth euery such likenes and pronounceth it accursed and abominable is no hardnes at al. Yea rather to giue it a better name were to make God a liar and in spite of his spirite to saue the Iewes and Gentils from that Idolatrie wherewith they were charged and for the which they be condemned in the scriptures For the things which they worshipped they thought to be the Images of God and in that respect did they honour not them so much as God by them supposing them to be his Images Phi. The Gentils and Iewes that were Idolaters worshipped false Gods and not the Image of the true God Theo. Their false Gods were the workes of mens hands made to resemble in their conceit the true God The children of Israell did not thinke their golden Calfe to bee a God but minding to haue some monument of God alwaies in their sight to stirre them to deuotion they made choice of a calfe because they had seene such Images set vp to God in Egypt where the people seruing God in that visible shape were wealthie and mightie by which blessings they coniectured God was wel pleased with the seruice of Egypt and therfore to testifie their thankefulnesse for their deliuâ—rance they erected an Image vnto god their deliuerer and proclaimed an holy day not to the calfe but vnto the Lord. The mother of Micheala vowed siluer vnto the Lord to make a grauen and molten Image Which she after perfected and named Teraphim building a chapel and entertaining a Leuite for it in the honor no doubt of him to whom the siluer was first dedicated The Iewes in all their generations knewe there was no god but one and yet seeing the Gentils that serued god in the shape of a man or likenes of other creatures to prosper and liue at hearts ease and oftentimes to be Lordes ouer them that were the people of god they fell to the manners of the nations round about them and honored as they thought the true god of Israell with bodily shapes and figures whereas god by his prophets notwithstanding their good intentions reiected and reproued that their seruice as doone to strange gods and Idols Yea Baal it selfe which the Scripture detesteth as a most infamous Idole was nothing els but a corporall Image erected vnto god by which the people dreampt they serued and pleased god as may be gathered by Osee where god promiseth to receiue Israell vnto fauour and to cause them to cease from their Idolatrous dishonouring him with the name of Baal At that day saith the Lord thou shalt call me no more Baal and by Esay where god denieth the Images that were set vppe for him to bee like vnto him The very heathens were not so blind as to beleeue the things which they made with their hands were gods neither did they set them vp as gods but rather as Images vnto god whom they thought to bee delighted with that kinde of visible and voluntarie seruice Sainct Ambrose saith of them Gentes lignum adorant quia Dei Imaginem putant The heathen worship their peeces of wood because they thinke them to bee the Images of God Themselues could answere the Christians in that sort as Celsus in Origen Quod si vel lapidem negent vel lignum vel aes vel aurum Deum esse ridiculum profecto erit id sapere Quis enim eà nisi stolidus quispiam pro Dijs habuerit Sed Deorum sunt ista vel sacra vel effigies quaedam If the Christians denie things made of wood stone brasse or gold to be God we graunt that were a ridiculous opinion Who but a starke foole did euer account them for Gods Yet these are seruices vnto the Goddes or else certain resemblances of the Goddes So Lactantius witnesseth of them Non ipsa inquiunt timemus sed eos ad quorum Imaginem ficta quorum nominibus consecrata sunt The heathen vse to say we stand not in awe of these Images but of them after whose likenes they be figured in whose names they be dedicated Their wordes in Clemens are Nos ad honorem inuisibilis Dei visibiles Imagines adoramus Wee worship the images which we may see in the honour of that God which can not be seene And in S. Austen Nec simulachrum nec Daemonium colo sed per effigiem corporalem eius rei signum intueor quam colere debeo I worship neither the Image nor the Diuel but by a corporal figure I behold the signe of that which I ought to worshippe Saint Paul chargeth all the Gentiles not with hauing new Goddes or other Goddes but for turning the trueth of God vnto a lie to witte the glorie of the incorruptible GOD to the similitude of the Image of a corruptible man which they made and honoured as the Images of the true GOD. Grosser idolatrie than the which can not bee committed For if to worship the creatures them-selues which are the workes of Gods handes and wherein his eternall power and diuinitie doe appeare were palpable Idolatrie howe inexcusable is it to serue the woorkes of our owne handes and the shadowes of those creatures prepared by art and applied by our vaine conceite to resemble the creator you must therefore either graunt euery likenes made with handes and set vp for an image vnto God to be an idole or else excuse both Iewes and Gentiles from idolatrie which I trust you will not Phi. The gentiles knew not God and for that cause could set vp no Image vnto God but vnto their owne ignorant imagination of God Theo. And you that presume to knowe god if you set vp such images vnto god as the gentiles did which knewe him not you bee ranker Idolaters than they were The more knowledge you haue of god the more sure you bee that those thinges made with handes bee no way like vnto god and that hee vtterly detesteth and expressely forbiddeth both the making and the reuerencing of all
fastned on the Apostles and Churches of Christ against al trueth the legates of Adrian in this very Synode conuince of a manifest and mightie corruption in the wordes that be most materiall for your purpose Phi. Did the legates of Adrian contradict their masters allegation Theo. The same place being rehearsed by Demetrius a Notarie out of the booke it selfe which the legates of Rome offered in the councel sounded farre otherwise than Adrian had cited it For where Adrian in his letters alleaged Hoc enim traditum nobis ab Apostolis non est prohibendum This being deliuered vs by the Apostles must not be prohibited the booke which they read had Hoc enim nobis a sanctis Apostolis non est prohibitum this is not forbidden vs by the Apostles It is one thing to say The Apostles did deliuer it an other to say The Apostles did not prohibite it Betweene these two reports if you weigh them wâ—ll you shall finde good difference Phi. If you like not the former reading take the latter and that in sight is true For the Apostles in particular woordes did not prohibite the making and worshipping of holy Images Theo. They needed not God by his Lawe long before had doone it very sufficiently and that standing in full force there needed no newe prohibition since no authoritie coulde bee greater than his who had already forbidden it And yet by your leaue the Apostles did not onely propose the whole Lawe of God as holy iust and good but they namely touch the seconde precept which wee reason of Saint Paul confessing the Iewes did well according to the Lawe to abhorre Idoles and that the Gentiles were giuen ouer to their vile affections for turning the glorie of God to the Image of a man and S. Iohn requiring all christians to beware the like in sayâ—ng Babes keepe your selues from Idoles Phi. FroÌ„ idoles but not from images Theo. An Image made with hands if it be set vp to God himselfe worshipped is an idole as I haue proued therfore you must either renouÌ„ce your adoring of images which your forged Basil would establish or else suffer theÌ„ to stand for Idoles from which S. Iohn deterreth vs. Phi. S. Augustine saith it is not an Idole except it bâ— Dei falsi alieni simulachrum the image of a false strange God And in that respect you do the Images of Christ his Saints great wrong to call them idoles Theo. S. Augustine in that place disputeth how Gedeons Ephod should be said in the scripture to be fornication in the people the destruction of Gedeons house since it was as he thought no likenes of any thing against the lawe but an imitation of the Priests apparell prescribed in the Law And albeit to interprete himself what he ment when he said it was no idole he addeth by way of explicatioÌ„ that is no shape of any false or strange God yet doth he not limit the word to that continual vse but rather granteth as his conclusioÌ„ sheweth that there were mo kindes of Idoles that this though it were a garment in the law not an Image against the law yet was it in sort an Idole so his words import FactuÌ„ est Gedeon domini eius in scandolum quia hoc quoddaÌ„ genus Idoli quodaÌ„modo erat This was the ruine of Gedeon his house because it was in some sense a kind of idole Tertullian wil tel you the word is general noteth the likenes or shape of any thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 graecè formam sonat ab â—oper diminutionem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aequé apud nos formulam fecit Igitur omnis forma vel formula Idolum se dici exposcit This word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greeke signifieth a shape whence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is deriued as a diminutiue and with vs signifieth any likenes therefore euery shape or likenes may wel bee called an Idole Isidor repeating Tertullians words as worth the noting addeth of his owne Idolum est simulachrum quod humana effigie factum consecratum est An Idole is an Image made after the shape of a man and dedicated vnto some religious vse Philand Nay dedicated vnto some false God and then it is rightly an Idole Theoph. But Isidore sayth generally that an image consecrated is an idole and consecration is the addicting of any thing to holy and diuine vses Phi. That is not Isidores meaning Theo. Those be Isidores words Phi. You heard S. Augustine say it must bee the Image of a false GOD. Theo. S. Augustine doth not tie the word to that signification as you heard by his owne confession and yet if you take false and straunge Gods as S. Augustine doeth your adoration of painted and carued Images will prooue them to bee false Christes and your selues to bee worshippers of false Goddes For if you worshippe Christ not after his will but after your conceite you woorshippe nowe not Christ but the fiction and imagination of your own heartes and that is a false Christ as Saint Augustine learnedly and truely teacheth Quisquis talem cogitat Deum qualis non est Deus alienum Deum vtique falsum in cogitatione portat Whosoeuer supposeth God to bee that hee is not beareth a straunge and false GOD in his cogitation This else-where hee calleth the Idole of the heart not onely in Pagans but also in Christians Of the false fansies that Pagans had of GOD hee sayth Prius id agimus vt Idola in eorum cordibus confringamus The first thing that wee labour is to breake downe those Idoles in their heartes Of the wrong imaginations of christians hee saith Quae omnia Idola cordis sunt all which are Idoles of the heart Phi. A false opinion of his essence is an Idole in the heart of man Theo. And so is a wrong perswasion of his will or woorship Hierom sayth Vsque hodie in domo Dei quae interpretatur ecclesia siue in corde animaque credentium ponitur Idolum quando nouum dogma constituitur Euen to this present day an Idole is set vp in the house of God which is interpreted to be the Church or else in the hearts and soules of the beleeuers when a newe point of Doctrine is deuised And therefore generally resolueth of all errors Quod omne dogma contrarium veritati adoret opera manuum suarum constituat Idola in terra sua that euery opinion repugnant to truth worshippeth the works of his own hands and erecteth an Idole in the land where it is By the workes of their owne hands hee meaneth the deuises of their hearts as else where he sheweth Haeretici perdito mentis iudicio adorant Idola quae de corde suo finxerunt Heretikes with their wicked resolution of mynd or else void of sense and feeling of mynde adore the Idoles which they haue framed in
of a corporal substaÌ„ce for your shewes without substance were not yet known but by secret efficiencie prouing the presence of the diuine vertue This common bread chaunged into flesh and blood procureth life and groweth to our bodies so by the vsuall course of these things the weakenes of our faith is succoured and â—aught by a sensible argument that the effects of eternal life is in the visible SacrameÌ„ts that we be vnitâ—â— to Christ noâ— so much by a corporal as by a spiritual transitioÌ„ Ambrose Perhaps tâ—ou wilt say I â—ee the likenes I see not the truth of blood But it hath a resemblaÌ„ce For as thou tookest a resemblance of his death so doest thou drink a resemblance of his precious blood to this end that there should be no horror of blood and yet it might worke the price of our saluation and the grace of our redemption might remaine Therfore for a similitude thou receauest the Sacrament sed ver ae naturae gratiaÌ„ virtuteÌ„que consequeris but thou obtainest therby the grace vertue of the true nature Gelasius By the sacraments which we receiue wee be made partakers of the diuine nature they truely represent to vs the vertues and effects of that Principal mysterie Hilarius These things tasted taken bring this to passe that Christ remaineth in vs this is The vertue of that table to quicken the receiuers Leo In that mystical distribution of the spirituall nourishment that is giuen this is taken that receiuing the vertue of the heauenly meate we may be chaunged into his flesh who was made flesh for vs. Chrysostom Let vs come to the spirituall dugge of this chalice and suck thence the grace of the spirit Austen The Sacrament is one thing the vertue of the Sacrament is an other thing Euery man receiueth his part whereby grace itselfe is called parts and where the Sacraments were common to all grace was not common to all which is the vertue of the Sacraments And againe The Capernites thought he would haue giuen them his body but he told them hee would ascend to heauen no doubt hee ment whole When you shall see the sonne of man ascendingâ— where hee was before surely then shal you see that he doth not giue his body that way which you imagine surely then shal you perceiue that his grace is not consumed with biting Euthymius He doth change these things vnspeakably into his very body that quickneth and into his very precious blood and into the grace of them bothâ— We must therfore not looke to the nature of the things proposed at the Lords table but vnto the vertue of them Wherefore Theodoretes wordes are most true The signes which are seene Christ did honor with the names of his body and blood not chaunging the nature or substance of them but casting grace vnto nature And so did Ambrose meane when hee sayde If there bee so great strength in the word of the Lord Iesu that all thinges beganne to bee when they were not howe much more shall it bee of force that the mysticall elementes should be the same they were before and yet bee chaunged into an other thing The same in earthly matter and substaunce which they were before chaunged in vertue power and working whereby wee see they beare not onely the names but also the fruites and effectes of those thinges whose Sacraments they bee This is their doctrine touching the visible part of this Sacrament which is seene with eyes felt with handes and â—rused with teeth of that there is no doubt but it entereth our mouthes and resteth in our bowels and that for the causes which I before rehearsed aâ—â—er consecration is euâ—ry where called by thâ—m the Lordes body but that the naturall fleshe of Christ which is thâ— other and inwarde part of the Sacrament entereth the mouth or abideth the teeth or passeth downe the throate or loâ—geth in the stomack this is a position wholy repugnant both to Fathers and Scriptures Doe you not know sayth Christ that whatsoeuer thing from without entereth into a man can not defile him because it entereth not into his heart but into the beâ—lie Then by the iudgement of our Sauiour nothing can enter â—oth the hâ—aâ—t the bâ—lly but the flesh of Chrisâ— entereth into the hâ—art ergo 〈…〉 The bellie saieth Paul is for meates meates for the bellie and God will destroy both it and them the bodie of Chrâ—st Gâ—d wâ—ll not destroy it is therefore no meate for the bellie If not for the â—â—lliâ— then not for the mouth because eueâ—ie thing that entereth the mouth goeth into the bellie and so foorth to the â—raught But so basely to thâ—nk of the flâ—sh of Christ is apparent and 〈◊〉 wickednesse eâ—go the fleshe of Christ neither fillâ—th our bellies nor â—ntâ—râ—th ouâ— moâ—â—â—â— For nothing that entereth the mouth can either defile or sanctifie Meatâ—s saith Paul whiâ—h passe by the mouth doe not commend vs vnto â—od neither doeth the kingâ—om of God which is our sanctificationâ— conâ—â—â— of mâ—ats and drinkes but Christ with his blood doeth sanctifie the people and hee that â—atâ—th my flâ—sh drinketh my blood saith â—e remaineth in mee and I in him and hath eternall life ergo neâ—ther his fleshe nor â—â—s blood enter ouâ— mâ—utheâ— To be short Christ dwelleth not in bellies by locall comprehension but in our hearts by faith his flâ—he seedeth not â—ur bodies for a tiâ—e but our soules for euer his wordes were spoken not of our mouthes which beâ—leâ—ue not â—ut of our spirites which haue no fleshe nor boanes and consequently neither teeth to grinde nor iawes to swallow but onely â—aith and vnderstanding Lette all this bee â—â—â—de if the learned and auncient Fathers doe not conclude the same Chrysostome Care not for the nourishment of the bodie but of the spirit Christ is the bread which â—eeâ—â—th not the bodie but the soule and filleth not the belly but the minde Ambrose Christ is in that sacrament because it is the bodie of Christ. It is therefore no bodily but Ghostly meate NOT THIS BREAD which entereth into the bodie but the bread of eternall life is it that vpholdeth the substaunce of our soule Cyprian As often as we doe this wee wheâ— not our teeth to bite but we breake the sanctified bread with a sincere faith Cyril Let vs therefore as our Sauiour saith labour not for the meate which goeth into the bellie but for the spirituall foode which confirmeth our harts and leadeth vs to eternall life Austen It is not lawfull to deuoure Christ with teeth Prepare not your iawes but your harts We take but a morsel our hart is replenished Therfore not that which is seen but that which is beleued doth feed Why prouidest thou thy teeth thy belly Beleeue thou hast eaten Beâ—traÌ„ At
which I will giue is my fleshe giuen for the life of the world Hee that eateth mee shall liue through mee hee abideth in mee and I in him I am the liuing bread which came downe from heauen if any man eate of this bread hee shall liue for euer Most delightful bread heale thou the tast of my heart that I may feele the sweetenesse of thy loue Let mine heart eate thee and with thy present relesse let the bowels of my soule bee replenished Angels eate thee with full mouth let man that is a pilgrime on earth eate thee as his weakenesse will suffer him that hee faint not in the way hauing this prouision for his iourney Holy bread liuing bread beautifull bread which camest from heauen and giuest life to the worlde come into my heart and clense mee from all filth of flesh and spirit Enter into my soule heale and sanctifie me within and without No man earnester in this point than S. Austen This visible bread confirmeth the stomack confirmeth the bellie There is an other bread which confirmeth the hart because it is the bread of the hart There is a wine that doth rightly cheere the hart can do nothing but cheere the hart Therfore vnderstand so of the bread as thou doest of the wine inwardly hūger inwardly thirst blessed are they which hunger thirst after righteousnes for they shal be satisfied That breade is righteousnes that wine is righteousnesse is trueth and Christ is the trueth I am saieth hee the liuing bread which came from heauen and I am the vine you are but braunches To beleeue in him this is to eate the liuing bread hee that beleeueth eateth Man is inuisibly fedde because hee is inuisibly regenerated He is inwardly in soule a babe inwardly in minde renewed Looke in what part man is newe borne in that part is hee fedde The vnbeleeuing Iewes were farre from this heauenly breade neither knewe they howe to hunger for it the iawes of their hearts were dull and this bread requireth the hunger of the inward man Take heed brethren eate you this heauenly bread spiritually bring innocencie to the altar Eate life and drinke life For then is the bodie and blood of the Lord life to each man when that which is visiblie taken in the Sacrament is in very trueth spiritually eaten spiritually drunken When Christ is eaten life is eaten neither when wee eate him doe wee make peeces of him In deede in the Sacrament it is so and the faithfull knowe howe they eate the fleshe of Christ euerie man taketh his peece Wherefore grace it selfe is termed peeces Christ is eaten by peeces in the sacrament and yet hee remaineth whole in heauen hee remayneth whole in thine heart Prouide not your iawes but your heart Thence is this Supper commended Beholde wee beleeue in Christ wee receiue him with our fayth In taking wee know what wee should thinke wee take him but a litle and our heart is replenished Macarius In the church is offered breade and wine the samplar of his body and blood and they which are partakers of the visible breade doe spiritually eate the Lordes fleshe Emissenus When thou goest vppe to the reuerende Altar to bee filled with spirituall meats by fayth beholde honour and wonder at the sacred bodie and bloode of thy God touch it with thy mynde take it with the hand of thyne heart and chiefely prouide that the inwarde manne swallowe the whole This Doctrine continued eight hundreth yeares after Christ. Bertram then liuing is witnesse sufficient The bodie and blood of Christ if thou consider the outward appearance is a creature subiect to mutation and corruption but if thou waigh the vertue of the mysterie it is life performing immortalitie to those that receiue it As touching the visible creature the mysteries feed the body but by the vertue of a mightier substance they feede sanctify the soules of the faithful What we should eat what we should drinke the holy Ghost expresseth by the Prophet Tast and see howe sweete the Lord is Doeth that breade corporally tasted or that wine sipped shewe howe sweete the Lorde is whatsoeuer tast that hath it is corporall and pleaseth the iawes Hee doeth therefore inuite vs to vse the relesse of our spirituall tast in that breade and drinke to dreame of no corporall thing but to conceiue all to bee spirituall This meate confirmeth our heart and this drinke cheereth the heart of man sayeth the Prophet By the which it is euident that nothing in this meate nothing in this drinke must bee corporally taken but the whole spirituallie considered For the soule which is ment by mans heart in this place is not fedde with corporall meate or drinke but is refreshed and nourished with the worde of God Faith beleeueth that which is not seene and spiritually feedeeth the soule and cheereth the heart and giueth eternall life whiles wee marke not that which feedeth the bodie not that which is pressed with teeth not that which is brused in peeces but that which is spiritually taken with faith For this is a spirituall foode and a spirituall drinke spiritually feeding the soule Paschasius commeth after Bertram in age but ioyneth with him in the same confession of trueth The diuine mysteries our inwarde man receiueth through the grace of Christ with vnderstanding and by them is hee made one bodie with Christ through the power of faith The fleshe and blood of Christ because they bee thinges spirituall are fullie receiued by fayth and vnderstanding It is not lawfull to eate Christ with teeth Christ is the meate of Angels and this Sacrament is truely his fleshe and his blood which fleshe and blood man eateth and drinketh spirituallie And so by what food the Angels liue by that also man liueth because in this that man receiueth all is diuine and spirituall Wee drinke spiritually and wee eate the spirituall flesh of Christ in which is beleeued to bee eternall life All that wee eate is spirituall The power of faith and vnderstanding which doubteth nothing of Christ doeth tast and relesse the whole spiritually Otherwise but for faith and vnderstanding what finde they which tast these thinges besides breade and wine The visible quantitie must not bee esteemed in this mysterie but the power of the spirituall Sacrament Wee must not respect howe much of the quantitie is pressed with our teeth but how much is receiued through faith and loue Therefore my sonne when thou commest to the participation of this mysterie OPEN THE BOSOM OF THY MINDE cleanse thy conscience and receiue thou not what a morsell containeth but AS MVCH AS THY FAITH APPREHENDETH Fulbertus a thousand yeres after Christ treadeth the same path That which appeared outwardly to be the substance of breade and wine is nowe made the bodie and blood
doubted but the trueth was present with the signe the spirite with the sacrameÌ„t as Cyprian saith We knew there could not follow an operation if there went not a presence before Set a side your carnal imaginations of Christ couered with accidences his flesh chammed betweene your teeth and say what you will either of his inuiâ—â—ble presence by power and grace or of the spiritual and effectuall participation of his flesh and bloud offered and receiued of the faith-full by this Sacrament for the quickening and preseruing of their soules and bodies to eternall life we ioyne with you no wordes shal displease vs that any way declare the trueth or force of this mysterie Your locall compassing of Christ with the shewes and fantasticall appearances of bread wine your reall grinding of his flesh with your iawes these be the points that we deny to be Catholike these doe the fathers refute as erroneous and in these your owne fellowes be not yet resolued what to say or what to hold Phi. Be not we resolued what to hold of Christes reall being in the Sacrament and the corporall eating his flesh with our mouthes Theo. How you be secretly resolued I know not your iudgementes laid downe to the world in writing are cleane contrarie Phi. Ours Theo. Whose said I but yours Phi. Howsouer in other thinges we retaine the libertie of the Schooles to dispute pro con yet in this you shall finde vs all together Theo. Together by the eares as dogges for bones Omit your contentions what the pronowne H O C supposeth what the verbe E S T â—ignifieth when and how the bread is abolished whether by conuersion or annihilation what bodie succeedeth and whether with distinction of parts and extension of quantity or without what subiect the accidents haue to hang on whether the aire or the body of Christ what it is that soureth and putrifieth in the formes of bread and wine whether it be the same bodie that sitteth in heauen and if it be how so many contradictions may be verified of one the same thing Omit I say these with infinite other like contentions the corporall eating of christ with your mouthes are you all agreed about it Philan. We are Theo. Your two Seminaries are perhaps because they hearken rather for sedition in the realme than for Religion in the Schooles But the great Rabbins of your side are they in one opinion concerning this matter Phi. Great and small consent togither against you Theo. Against trueth they doe but in their owne fantasticall error they doe not The cheefest Pillours of your church when they come to that point which is now in handling wander in the desert of their owne deuises as men forsaking and forsaken of trueth Your Gloze is content if a man gape wide that the body of christ shall enter his mouth but he holdeth it for an heresie that the teeth should touch the same and therefore when the iawes beginne to close he dispatcheth away the body of christ in post towards heauen Certum est It is no coniecture but certaine that as soone as the formes of bread be pressed with the teeth tam cito presently the bodie of christ is caught vp into heauen Durandus is more fauourable to the teeth and will haue christ present in the mouth chamme he that list till his â—awes ake but hee is as strait laced against the stomack as the glozer is against the teeth and wil by no meanes haue the bodie of christ to passe thither building himselfe on these wordes of Hugo Christ is corporally present in visu in sapore whiles wee see or tast the sacrament As long as our bodily senses are affected so long his corporall presence is not remooued but when once the senses of our bodie beginne to faile that we neither see nor tast the formes then must wee seeke no longer for a corporall presence but retaine the spirituall because christ passeth from the mouth neither to heauen as the Gloze said nor to the stomack as the rest affirme but to the hart And better it is that he goe straight to the mind than descend to the stomacke Others is whome Bonauenture more inclineth will no way but Christ must take vp his lodging as wel in the stomacke as in the mouth maâ—y thence they suffer him not to wagge neither vpward nor downward whatsoeuer become of the accidentâ—l forms of bread and wine And lest it should be â—hought as Durand and Hugo say that the bodie of Christ goeth to the hart he repâ—ieâ—h that Quantum ad substantiam corporis certum est quod non vadit in meâ—tem sed vtrum sic vadâ—t in ventrâ—m dubium est propter diuersitatem opinionum as touching the substance of his bodie it is cleare that he passeth not to the mind but whether he so come that is in the substance of his bodie from the mouth to the belliâ— this is yet in doubt by reason of the diueâ—sitie of opinions in so great varietie what to hold is haâ—d to iudge Yet he liketh not that Aut mus in ventrem traijceret aut in cloacam descenderet the bodie of Christ shuld goe into the bellie of a mouse or be cast foorth by the draught because the eares of well disposed persons would abhorre that sidiceremus haeretici infideles deriderent nos irriderent and if we should defend that the heretiks and infidels would iest at vs and laugh vs to scorne This notwithstanding Alexander de Hales in spiâ—e of al heretikes and infidels â—entereth on it If a dog or an hogge saith he should eat the whole consecrated host I see no cause but the Lords bodie should goe therewithall into the bellie of that dog or hog Thomas of Aquine sharpely reprouâ—th them which thinke otherwise Some haue saide that as soone as the Sacrament is taken of a mouse or a dog streight way the bodie and bloud of Christ cease to be there but this is a derogation to the trueth of this Sacrament In â—auour of Thomas Petrus de Palude Ioannes de Burgo Nicolaus de Oâ—bellis with the whole sect of Thomists neither few in number nor mean in credite with the church of Rome defend the same yea where the master of the sentences seemed to shrinke from this loathsome position It may wel be said that the bodie of Christ is not receined of brute beasts the facultie of diuines in Paris with full consent gaue him this check here the master is refused And for feare lest the field should be wonne without him in steppeth Antonius Archbishoppe of Florence and recompenseth his late comming with his lewd writing First hee telleth how Petrus de Palude dressed the Glâ—ze for saying that Christ is caught vp to heauen as soone as the formes of the sacrament are pressed with our teeth Quod dicere est haereticum which
specie visibili they dranke one thing we drink an other thing but in visible kinde Ibi Petra Christus nobis Christus quod in altari Dei ponitur Si speciem visibilem intendas aliud est To them the Rock was Christ to vs that is Christ which is set on the altar of God If you looke to the visible kinde it is an other thing than that they dranke In these places you can not interprete species a shewe without substance vnlesse you wil transubstantiate Manna which the children of Israel did eate the rocke which they dranke of the hatchet which Elizeus made swâ—m the bread that is in common vse without before consecration for these things Austen and Ambrose comparing them with this Sacrament do call visibiles species visibles kindes as they do the bread and wine proposed to the faithfull at the Lordes table And were you so peruerse that against the meaning of the Fatherâ— â—nd signification of the word you would needes haue species to bee taken for your miraculous and mysticall accidences I can tell you they are like to shrinke in this change as well as the substaunce For Ambrose saith Sermo Christi mutat species elementorum the word of Christ changeth by your interpretation the shewes of the elementes which is so apparantly false that your selues dare not abide it And therefore species must stand not for the outward formes and shewes but for the thinges themselues As Sainct Augustine speaking of the Sacramentall bread sayth vt sit visibilis species panis multa grana in vnum consperguntur Manie cornes are kneaded togither to make not the shew but the visible kinde or creature of bread By which it is euident that species with auncient writers in their discourses of this Sacrament is not a shewe without a substaunce as you vainly suppose but a kinde or creature which is far from accidentes hanging in the ayre you know not how by miraculous geometrie Philand Wee ground not our selues so much on the bare name of species as on the change of the bread and wine made by vertue of consecration as all the Fathers witnesse Theo. It is a verie simple foundation to builde on a bare word which hath many significations besides that and any signification rather than that which you conceiue and yet that is one of the best foundations you haue for your newe founde shewes without substaunce and as for the chaunge of the sacred elementes made by the wordes of Christ and mentioned in the Fathers if you did not vrge your fansies on their phrases but examine their doctrine you should soone spie your error which nowe you will not you bee so wedded to the preiudice of your owne opinion Phi. Doe not all the Fathers with one voice confesse a change to bee made in the elementes by the words of Consecration Theo. Doe not we acknowledge the same How could vsuall bread taken of the fruites of the earth and seruing only to feede the bodie become a Sacrament instrument of heauenly grace and life to quicken and strengthen the soule of man but by some great and maruelous chaunge Phi. Such as none coulde perfourme but the mighty finger of God himselfe For so S. Ambrose and others to perswade this chaunge haue recourse to Christes eternall power and trueth Theo. Yea verily Phi. That confession is suffâ—cient to confute the doctrine which you defend Theo. I see not how Phi. If the bread were not changed from his former substance it could neither bee miraculous nor neede the omnipotent power of Christ. For figures similitudes men may make but this mutation is wrought by the mightie power of the holy Ghost and the manner is vnsearchable Theo. Greater power truth are required for the finishing of one Sacrament than for the working of many miracles Miracles not only the godly but also the wicked haue diuerse times wrought The Sorcerers of Egypt did some wonders Antichrist hath his miracles and those not a few But Sacramentes no Sainct no not the chosen and elect Angels of heauen can institute For who dare promise who can performe the spirituall and celestiall graces of God to bee annexed to the visible signes but only God How could water regenerate the soule if the worde were not God How could bread and wine norish to life euerlasting vnlesse the same God had likewise spoken the word We must in al sacraments be fully persuaded of Christs infallible truth alsufficient power before we can either beleeue or inioy the promises If his word might lack truth or want power then should our faith vanish these outward elements perish without profiting vs but with him is no changing neither can any thing defeate his wil therefore when wee bee taught to looke not on the weaknes of the creatures which be corruptible but on the perfection of his heauenly word which is puissant predominaÌ„t ouer al things what doth this helpe your real corporal coÌ„uersion of bread into Christ What maketh this for TraÌ„substantiation God is wonderfull in this and all other his sacramentes not by casting away substances and leauing accidences but by working that in our hearts by the mightie power of his spirit aboue nature which the visible signes import to our senses and this is more maruelous in any wise mans eye than your accidentall shewes without a subiect Phi. God is maruelous in all his workes but in this more than in any other because the substance of the bread wine is changed where the qualities are not Theo. That change you dreame of but who auoucheth it besides your selues or what ancient father euer mentioned any such Phi. They all confesse the change which we speake of Theo. You bee so deepe in your empty shewes that wee take your all to bee as much as none Phi. Thinke you as you list wee knowe what wee haue Theo. If your stoare bee so great why make you such curtsie to name vs one Phi. You will quarell with him when I bring him Theo. Your selfe mistrust him before you offer him Phi. I mistrust your carping not his writing Theo. If mine answere bee not sound wherefore serue you but to refute it Phi. Wel then Eusebius Emissenus hath an euident testimony for this matter Recedat omne infidelitatis ambiguum quandoquidem qui author est muneris ipse est etiam testis veritatis Nam inuisibilis sacerdos visibiles creaturas in substantiam corporis sanguinis sui verbo secreta potestate conuertit ita dicens Accipite comedite hoc est corpus meuÌ„ Et sanctificatione repetita accipite bibite ait Hic est sanguis meus Ergo sicut ad nutum praecipientis Domini repente ex nihilo substiterunt excelsa caelorum profunda fluctuum vasta terrarum ita pari potestate in spiritualibus Sacramentis vbi praecipit virtus seruit effectus Let all doubt of infidelitie
himself is neither of a diuine substance only nor of an humane only There is then as wel in the high Priest as in the sacrifice an heauenly substance there is also an earthly substanceâ— The earthly substance in theÌ„ both is that which may corporally locally be seen The heauenly in them both is the inuisile word which in the beginning was God with God The Church of England euen to the conquest held the same Doctrine and taught it to the people of this Land in their publike homilies which are yet to be seene of good record in the Saxon tongue The sermon then read on Easter day throughout their Churches is a manifest declaration of that which I say where amongst others these words are occurrent The holy font water that is called the welspring of life is like in shape to other waters and is subiect to corruption but the holy Ghosts might commeth to the corruptible water through the Priests blessing and it can after wash the bodie and soul from all sinne through Ghostly might Beholde now we see two things in this one creature After true nature that water is corruptible water and after Ghostly mystery hath hallowing might So also if we behold that holie housell after bodily vnderstanding then see we that it is a creature corruptible mutable if we acknowledge therein ghostly might theÌ„ vnderstaÌ„d we that life is therein and that it giueth immortalitie to them that eate it with beliefe Much is betwixt the inuisible might of the holy housel the visible shape of his proper nature It is naturally corruptible bread and corruptible wine and is by might of Gods word truly Christes bodie and his bloud not so notwithstanding bodily but Ghostly Much is betwixt the bodie Christ suffered in and the body that is hallowed to housell The body truely that Christ suffered in was borne of the flesh of Mary with bloud with bone with skinne and with sinewes in humane limmes with a reasonable soul liuing and his Ghostly body which wee call the housell is gathered of many cornes without bloud and bone without limme without soul. And therefore nothing is to be vnderstood therein bodily but al is Ghostly to be vnderstood Phi. What care we for your Saxon recordes Theo. Lesse care we for your Romish Monckish recordes so lately and grossely forged as we haue proued yet this to your inward grief you may now see shal an other day to your vtter confusion feele that your nouelties touching the Sacrament were neuer hard of in the Church of England nor in the Church of Christ til Lancfrancus Anselmus other Italians a thowsand yeres after christ came in with their AntichristiaÌ„ deuises and inuentions expounding Species and forma panis for the qualities accidents of bread without any subiect or substance which once taking place you fel amaine both to sacrilegious sophismes against trueth and rebellious practises against Princes ceased not til you brought them to their hight in your late Laterane Councell vnder Innocentius the third 1215 yeares after Christ. This is your Catholicisme that you so much vaunt of which the Christian world was vtterly ignorant of for almost a thousand yeares and to the which you would now reduce the simple with a shew of holines pretending greate grauitie and admirable antiquitie with bolde faces and eger speaches though you be void of both if you were well examined Phi. Were the doctrine of elder ages in some doubt which we knowe to be fully for vs yet you confesse these last fiue hundreth yeares are cleare on our side Theo. The miter and Scepter were yours the mysterie of iniquiiie working as was foretold and infecting the West Church with hypocrisie and heresie as fast as the Turke oppressed the East with rage tyrannie Yet in euerie of these last most corrupted ages God raised a number of innocent and simple men with the confession of their mouthes and expence of their liues to witnesse his trueth against the pride and fury of their aduersaries whome your holie father hanged burned and otherwise murdered for repining at his proceedings that whome with honour and ease he could not allure at lest he might quaile with terror and torment Phi. Shoulde wee leaue the fellowship of holie Popes famous Prelates mighty Princes learned and Religious Moncks and Friers yea Saints and ioyne our selues to a fewe condemned and infamous heretikes as you doe Theo. That which is pretious and admirable before men may be odious detestable before God The dignities of men cannot deface the truth of Christ the higher their states the greater their falles if they did oppose themselues against the highest Phi. You say they did Theo. I doe not but this I say that if the respect of their externall and temporall glorie be the ground of your conscience you haue a wicked affection as well as Religion To follow men against God is to magnifie them afore God Phi. You condemne them for cast-awaies Theo. I am not their iudge He that made them might be mercifull to them amiddest the defects and dangers of those daies as he hath been to some in all ages and places yet that is no safetie for you to defend their open errors and wilfully to continue their wickednes Phi. Were not our fathers religious and holy men Theo. Iustifie not your fathers against God lest their mouthes condemne you for a pernicious ofsprng God will be glorified when he iudgeth say you and your fattherâ— what you can to the contrary Reprooue not the sharpnes of his iustice which he neuer sheweth but for great and vrgent cause submit your selues rather and acknowledge it is his vndeserued and yet not vnwoonted mercie that you be not consumed as your fathers were before you but haue yet time and warning to repâ—nt Phi. And are you such Saints that you â—eede no repentance Theo. Wee desire to liue no longer than we confâ—sse before heauen and earth that as God hath beene righteous in reuenging the sinnes and iniquities of our fathers by taking his trueth from them and leauing them to the power of darkenes and kingdome of Antichrist so he might most iustly for our vngodlines vnthankfulnes haue wrapped vs in the same confusion and destruction saue that of his infinite and vnspeakeable mercy he woulde haue his Gospell preached afresh for a witnes to all Nations before he come to iudgement to make all men inexcusable that haue either not beleeued or not obeyed the truth And this causeth vs not onely with all that is within vs to giue glorie to his name for so great a blessing but to beseech him that though we be lighted on the ends of the world when charitie waxeth cold and faith is skant found on the face of the earth we may not be caried away with the error of the wicked to perdition especially not to followe the way of Cain that
dipped his hands in his brothers bloode nor take the wages of Balaam to curse and reuile the people of God nor perish in the contradiction of Corah for resisting both God and the Magistrate but rather that wee may be sanctified and saued by the might of his word and store of his mercy laid vp in Christ his sonne for all that beleeue him and call vpon him Phi. God send vs such part as our fathers had Theo. You be so displeased with God for punishing the sinnes of your fathers with blindnes and error in these later ages that now you will none of his light nor grace though he offer it freely to saue your soules but if you will needes perish your owne bloode be on your owne heades yet haue vs excused if we thinke our sinnes heauie enough though wee adde not thereto the neglect of his worde and contempt of his trueth as you doe In the knowledge of God and reuerence of his iudgements there is a path way to repentaunce and hope of mercy in the proude dislike of his seueritie towards others and sâ—ubberne refusall of his goodnes towards our selues there is nothing but an heaping of extreme vengeaunce which shall consume the wicked and impenitent resisters of his word and spirit Phi. We be not of that number Theo. Were you not you would be more carefull to search and willing to embrace the trueth of Christ once vnderstoode with all readines and lowlines of minde knowing that God resisteth the proud and giueth grace to the humble and not with an high-looking and self-pleasing perswasion that all is yours neglect your duty to God and man Phi. We obserue both Theo. You obserue neither Subiection to your lawfull Prince you haue forsaken and not onely fledde the Realme and incited others to doe the like but the Christian alleageance which the Prince requireth of her subiects you impugne with shifts and slaunders in fauoâ—r of him who wickedly and iniuriously taketh vpon him to be the supreme Moderator of earthly kingdomes chiefe disposer of princes Crowns and so fast are you lincked in confederacie with him that in open view of all men you will allow no Prince to beare the sword longer than shall like him but proclaime rebellions of subiects against their Soueraignes to be iust honorable warres if he authorize them by his Censures And where to cloake your wicked and enormous attempts you boldely surmised that you did whatsoeuer you did for that Religion which was ancient Catholike we haue presently taken you so tardie short of your reckoning that for sixe of the greatest and cheefest points now in question betwixt the Church of England and the Church of Rome and reformed in this Realme by publike authoritie you cannot bring vs so much as one ancient euident testimony that your faith and Doctrine was euer taught or receiued in the primatiue church of christ and yet you please your selues in your owm conceits and compasse the earth to get prosilites fit for such teachers whom you may traine vp in error and vse as instruments to catch vnstable soules and fier vnquiet heades that you by them may disturbe realmes and fishe for Princes thrones and liues in troubled waters Phi. All this is as false as God is true Theo. God himselfe shall skant be trueth if you may be the iudges except hee take your parts But facing and craking laid aside you must referre the iudgement of your doings and sayings to others and not to your selues Phi. To Catholikes I am content The. They must be then of your instructing that is such as will trust neither fathers nor Scriptures against your Canons otherwise in that you haue saide they shall find no great cause to like your impugning the Princes power right to establish Lawes within her owne lande without the Popes leaue and to hold her Crowne against his censures and as litle shall they find to cal you or count you Catholikes Phi. Men of your own pitch will soone assent to any thing Theo. Let them be but indifferent and weigh what you haue brought Phi. More we can bring when we see our times The It skilleth not how much but how sound that is which you can bring Phi. Of that hereafter and yet in the meane time there be many other thinges besides these that you haue handled that must be discussed before we can be pronounced no Catholikes And as in these you seeeme with wresting and wrenching to haue some aduantage so in those we could forthwith confound you The. Euen as you haue doone in these Phi. A great deale more readily if I had time to stay the triall of them but this holy tide I must spend in other matters of more importance Theo. What In spredding newes that the king of Spain doth stay but for the next summer Phi. We meddle not with forraine affaires Theo. A number of you be better seene in policie than in diuinitie you were borne belike to be rulers though it be but of Rebels as Sanders was that thought it a praise to take the field in person against his Prince Phi. My trauell is not to that end Theo. You leaue that for others and trauel to sound the harts of your adherents whether they be in number welth and zeale likely and readie to giue assistance if any should inuade Phi. What vnchristian coniectures you haue of vs Theo. None but such as your owne deedes and wordes occasion Phi What cause haue we giuen you to speake this of vs Theo. What greater cause can you giue than openly to auouch as you haue done in your Defence of Catholiks as you call them yâ— rebellions against such Princes as the Pope deposeth are godly iust honourable wars Phi. If hee may depose them they are Theo. You haue in print affirmed both and sought to proue them with all your might and therefore what shal we thinke your secret whispering and reconâ—ling to the Church of Rome is but a craftie bayte of Malcontentes to make rebels Phi. The parties themselues can witnesse we neuer mention any such thing in our absolution To them we appeale for record Theo. For my part I thinke you doe not It were too grosse conspiracie treason to take vowes and oths of subiects against their Prince by name and therefore if you should take that open course you were worthie to ride to Tyburne not only for traytors but also for disards But when you reconcile them you take assurance of them by vow oth or other adiuration that they shall embrace the Catholike faith and hold Communion vnitie with the Church of Rome for euer after Phi. Why should we not Theo. Then when it pleaseth my Lord the Pope to depriue the Prince and to excommunicate al that assist or agnise her for a lawfull magistrate what must your reconciled sort doe Is it not against their oth faith giuen to you at their restitution to
The faith of our fathers is not alwaies trueth 537 God forbiddeth vs to follow the steppes of our fathers 538 The godly confessed their fathers did erre 539 All humane lawes barres giue place to God 540 The prince might make lawes for trueth maugre the Pope 541 Princes haue setled religion without Councels 542 Christian religion receiued vpon the direction of a lay man 543 Trueth authorised the Apostles against Priests Princes 544 Railing on Princes is a capitall crime 545 The contents of the fourth part No point of Poperie Catholike 546. What is truely CATHOLIKE 547 The worshipping of Images is not Catholike 547 The west Church against the worshipping of Images 548 Corruption to help the credite of the second Nicen councell 549 The worshipping of Images detested in the Church of Christ as Heresie 550 The â—mage of God made with hands may not be worshipped 552 The Iewes Gentiles did erect their Images vnto God 553 The heathen adored their stocks as the Images of God 554 The Image of man set vp vnto God is an Idoll 556 The wodden Image of Christ may not be worshipped 557 The honour done to a wodden Image is not done to Christ. 559 Adoration of Images no Apostolick tradition 562 S. Basill forged to make for adoration of Images 563 The shamefull forgeries and falsities of the second Nicene councell 564 Both Scriptures and fathers wickedly abused by the second Nicene Councâ—l 565 The second Nicene Councel conuincing it selfe of forgerie 566 What an Idole is 567 A wrong seruice of God is Idolatrie 568 The Church of Rome giueth diuine honour vnto Images 569 Christs honour may not be giuen to Images 570 The hauing of Images is not Catholike 572 Athanasius palpablie forged in the second Nicene Councell 574 The Church next to the Apostles reiected Images 574 Images came first from Heathens vnto Christians 575 Images reiected by godly Bishops 576. No corporall submission may be giuen to Images 577 The Nicene Bishops play the sophists in decreeing adoration vnto Images 577 The wodden crosse of Christ may not be adored 578 Not one word in scripture for adoration of Images 580 No point of faith may be built on traditions 581 No point of faith beleeued without Scripture 582 Baptizing of Infants is a consequent of the Scriptures 583 It may be a tradition yet grounded on the Scriptures 584 Baptisme of InfaÌ„ts prooued needfull by the Scriptures 585 Rebaptization repugnant to the Scriptures by S. Augustines iudgement 588 The perpetuall virginitie of Marie the Mother of Christ. 589 The Godhead of the holy ghost expressed in the Scriptures 590 His proceeding from the father and the sonne confirmed by the Scriptures 592 Expresse scripture is the sense and not the syllables 593 Fathers wrested to speake against the scriptures 594 The Popish faith is their owne traditioÌ„ against the scriptures 597 Their adoration of images is a late and wicked inuenâ—ion of their schooles 598 Images adored in the Church of Rome with diuine honour 600 Images reiected by Catholike Bishops 601 S. Austen condemneth Images as vnprofitable signes 602 Custome without trueth is but the antiquitie of error 603 Praier in an vnknowen toung prohibited by Saint Paul in Gods name 604 S. Paul speaketh of vnknoweÌ„ touÌ„gs 606 An vnknowen toung cannot edifie 607 Diuine seruice in a knowen toung cannot choose but edifie 608 S. Paul speaketh of three learned toungs as wel as of others 610 S. Paul speaketh of the Hebrew Greeke and Latine as well as of other tongues 611 S. Pauls wordes comprise both Church seruice sermons 612 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 14. speaketh of Church seruice 613 The Church vnder the Apostles had no set order of diuine seruice 614 The Church vnder the Apostles did sing blesse and pray by the gyft of the spirite 615 The Apostle had no certaine praiers or seruice 616 The Iesuits halting reasons that S. Paul did not speak of the church Seruice 616 S. Paul to the Corinthians speaketh of Church seruice 620 No man may say AMEN to that he vnderstandeth not 624 Necessary to vnderstand our praiers 625 The primatiue Church had neuer her praiers and seruice in an vnknowen tongue 627 The latine seruice was vnderstood in the Countries where it was 629 Alleluia is vsed in all tongues aswell barbarous as others 630 The Britans had no latine seruice 632 Alleluia soung at the plough 632 The Iesuits manner of alleaging impertiment authorities 633 Bede doth not say that the people of this Realme had the latine seruice in his time 634 The prayers of the primatiue Church were common to all the people 636 The Masse book proueth that the people should vnderstand the Priest 639 The Priest needeth no speach in his praiers but to edifie the hearers 640 Praier is as acceptable to God in a barbarous as in a learned touÌ„g 642 Seruice in an vnknowen tongue is no custome of the vniuersall Church 643 The primatiue church had her seruice in such tongues as the people vnderstood 644 The primatiue church allowed praiers in barbarous tounges Whether side commeth nearest to christs institution 650 S. Paul by the Lords supper meaneth the sacrament 651 The name Masse whence it first came 655 We doe not swarue from christes institution 657 Christ did blesse with the mouth and not with the finger 658 Blessing in the scriptures applied to diuerse and sundrie thinges 659 To doe any thing vpon or ouer the bread is not needefull 660 The rehearsall of christs wordes maketh a sacrament 661 We shew our purpose at the Lords table by our words and deedes 662 The worde beleeued maketh the Sacrament 664 Vnlâ—uened bread is not of the substance of the Sacrament 664 Water is no part of Christs institution 663. 670 Water is not necessarie in the Lordes cup euen by the confession of their own schooles 668 No water mingled whiles the Apostles liued 672 The Masse an open profanation of Christs institution 673 Priuate Masse euerieth all that christ did or said at his last Supper 674 Christ did not sacrifice himselfe at his last supper 676 The Primatiue church had no priuate Masse 678 The Lords supper ought to be coÌ„mon 679 The Lords cup was deliuered to the people as well as the bread 679 Christs precept for the cup extendeth as well to the people as to the Priest 680 In the primatiue church the lords cup was common to all 682 The causes for which the church of Rome changed christs institution 683 The auncient church of Rome very vehement against half communions 684 Forbearing the Lords cuppe condemned in laymen as sacrilege 685 Sacrilege in the Priest can be no religion in the people 686 The Iesuits proofes for their sacrifice 687 How the fathers call the Lordes supper a sacrifice 688 Their own Masse booke contradicteth their sacrifice 690 The Lords death is the sacrfice of the Lords supper 691 A memoriall of christs passion is our daily sacrifice 692 The elder sort of Schoolemen knew not their