a_o reply_n to_o mr._n rutherfurd_n or_o a_o defence_n of_o the_o answer_n to_o reverend_a mr._n herles_a book_n against_o the_o independency_n of_o church_n wherein_o such_o objection_n and_o answer_n as_o be_v return_v to_o sundry_a passage_n in_o the_o say_a answer_n by_o mr._n samuel_n rutherfurd_n a_o godly_a and_o learned_a brother_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n in_o his_o book_n entitle_v the_o due_a right_n of_o presbyter_n be_v examine_v and_o remove_v and_o the_o answer_v justify_v and_o clear_v by_o richard_n maâ—her_n teacher_n to_o the_o church_n at_o dorchester_n in_o new_a england_n 1646._o london_n print_v for_o j._n rothwell_n and_o h._n allen_n at_o the_o sun_n and_o fountain_n in_o paul_n churchyard_n and_o the_o crown_n in_o popes-head_n alley_n 1647_o the_o author_n preface_n to_o the_o reader_n christian_n reader_n have_v publish_v some_o year_n ago_o a_o small_a treatise_n in_o way_n of_o a_o brotherly_a answer_n to_o reverend_a master_n herle_v i_o now_o present_a unto_o thy_o view_n a_o defence_n thereof_o against_o such_o objection_n and_o answer_n as_o have_v be_v return_v to_o sundry_a passage_n therein_o by_o reverend_a and_o learned_a master_n rutherfurd_n in_o which_o undertake_v it_o have_v be_v far_o from_o my_o intention_n to_o increase_v or_o uphold_v the_o difference_n that_o have_v appear_v of_o late_a year_n in_o england_n among_o the_o servant_n of_o the_o lord_n about_o matter_n of_o church_n government_n for_o i_o have_v much_o rather_o bring_v prayer_n and_o tear_n for_o the_o quench_n of_o such_o fire_n than_o fuel_n or_o oil_n for_o the_o increase_n thereof_o neither_o shall_v the_o same_o i_o hope_v be_v any_o thing_n at_o all_o increase_v by_o what_o here_o i_o present_v now_o thy_o view_n at_o the_o least_o this_o i_o may_v say_v that_o i_o intend_v no_o such_o thing_n but_o the_o contrary_a even_o the_o promote_a of_o truth_n and_o peace_n if_o it_o be_v the_o will_n of_o god_n so_o to_o bless_v my_o desire_n and_o endeavour_n true_a it_o be_v i_o have_v take_v the_o liberty_n to_o consider_v and_o try_v some_o thing_n deliver_v by_o that_o reverend_a brother_n who_o here_o i_o have_v to_o do_v withal_o but_o this_o i_o trust_v can_v be_v just_o offensive_a in_o as_o much_o as_o the_o spirit_n of_o the_o prophet_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o prophet_n 1_o cor._n 14._o 32._o and_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o apostle_n himself_o be_v examine_v by_o those_o noble_a berean_o who_o the_o holy_a ghost_n commend_v for_o search_v the_o scripture_n daily_o whether_o those_o thing_n be_v so_o act._n 17._o 11._o it_o be_v also_o true_a which_o our_o reverend_a brother_n say_v in_o his_o epistle_n to_o the_o reader_n before_o his_o peaceable_a plea_n that_o there_o be_v great_a cause_n of_o sorrow_n that_o all_o the_o lord_n people_n shall_v not_o mind_v one_o thing_n and_o sing_v one_o song_n and_o join_v in_o one_o against_o the_o child_n of_o babel_n nevertheless_o this_o may_v be_v some_o comfort_n against_o this_o sorrow_n that_o by_o the_o providence_n of_o the_o lord_n this_o diversity_n of_o opinion_n and_o dispute_n if_o it_o be_v christianly_o carry_v as_o it_o may_v may_v occasion_n and_o produce_v in_o the_o issue_n the_o further_o clear_v up_o of_o truth_n for_o as_o our_o author_n well_o observe_v from_o the_o collision_n of_o opinion_n result_v truth_n and_o dispute_v as_o strike_v flint_n cast_v fire_n for_o light_n due_a right_n of_o presbyt_fw-la epistle_n to_o the_o reader_n the_o desire_n and_o hope_v whereof_o together_o with_o the_o advice_n of_o such_o brethren_n as_o i_o consult_v withal_o be_v that_o which_o chief_o prevail_v with_o i_o for_o the_o publish_n of_o this_o reply_n wherein_o the_o reader_n will_v find_v sundry_a scripture_n and_o question_n controvert_v in_o these_o time_n discuss_v and_o consider_v so_o far_o as_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o reply_n or_o defence_n do_v lead_v thereto_o and_o i_o hope_v some_o or_o other_o through_o god_n blessing_n may_v receive_v some_o profit_n thereby_o and_o if_o the_o humble_a christian_a who_o desire_v to_o know_v and_o love_n and_o practice_v the_o truth_n shall_v receive_v any_o benefit_n or_o help_v for_o attain_v these_o end_n by_o mean_n of_o this_o labour_n of_o i_o it_o be_v that_o which_o i_o intend_v and_o aim_v at_o and_o for_o which_o i_o desire_v that_o god_n alone_o may_v have_v the_o praise_n and_o glory_n if_o any_o shall_v still_o remain_v otherwise_o mind_v yet_o in_o due_a time_n i_o hope_v god_n shall_v reveal_v even_o this_o unto_o they_o in_o the_o mean_a time_n diversity_n of_o apprehension_n in_o these_o point_n ought_v not_o to_o breed_v any_o alienation_n of_o affection_n among_o those_o that_o be_v otherwise_o orthodox_n and_o sincere_a it_o be_v a_o thousand_o pity_n if_o it_o shall_v for_o my_o part_n i_o can_v but_o approve_v what_o this_o reverend_a brother_n sometime_o profess_v that_o he_o do_v both_o love_n and_o dispute_v contradict_v and_o reverence_v at_o once_o peaceable_a plea_n epist_n yea_o he_o count_v himself_o a_o debtor_n for_o love_n charity_n honour_n and_o all_o due_a respect_n in_o christ_n jesus_n and_o a_o seat_n and_o lodging_n in_o his_o heart_n and_o high_a esteem_n to_o all_o those_o that_o be_v godly_a lover_n of_o the_o truth_n and_o sufferer_n for_o the_o truth_n against_o prelacy_n though_o possible_o they_o like_v not_o well_o of_o presbyterial_a government_n ibid._n in_o answer_v whereto_o for_o i_o will_v be_v loath_a that_o such_o love_n shall_v be_v lose_v upon_o we_o without_o due_a return_n of_o the_o like_a i_o will_v for_o my_o part_n profess_v the_o like_a dear_a and_o due_a respect_n to_o all_o those_o that_o be_v qualify_v as_o here_o he_o do_v describe_v of_o which_o sort_n i_o know_v there_o be_v many_o though_o possible_o they_o may_v like_v better_o of_o the_o way_n that_o be_v call_v presbyterial_a then_o of_o the_o congregationall_a for_o those_o that_o give_v apparent_a testimony_n that_o they_o be_v the_o lord_n and_o so_o that_o they_o must_v live_v together_o in_o heaven_n i_o know_v not_o why_o they_o shall_v not_o love_v one_o another_o on_o earth_n what_o ever_o difference_n of_o apprehension_n may_v for_o the_o present_a be_v find_v among_o they_o in_o some_o thing_n as_o for_o bitterness_n of_o spirit_n and_o tartness_n of_o contest_v i_o never_o think_v that_o to_o be_v god_n way_n of_o promote_a truth_n among_o brethren_n and_o therefore_o i_o have_v endeavour_v in_o this_o discourse_n to_o avoid_v the_o same_o for_o i_o believe_v there_o be_v more_o hope_n of_o do_v good_a by_o solidity_n of_o argument_n with_o a_o spirit_n of_o meekness_n and_o love_n then_o by_o sharp_a and_o tart_a language_n the_o fruit_n of_o bitterness_n of_o spirit_n wherein_o for_o the_o most_o part_n right_a of_o reason_n be_v want_v the_o passion_n be_v there_o most_o vehement_a and_o stir_a where_o the_o intellectual_n be_v most_o â—eeble_a and_o weak_a now_o if_o any_o ask_v why_o this_o defence_n have_v be_v so_o long_o defer_v it_o be_v now_o two_o year_n and_o more_o since_o master_n rutherfurd_n his_o due_a right_n of_o presbyt_fw-la come_v forth_o such_o may_v be_v please_v to_o consider_v that_o new_a england_n be_v as_o it_o be_v count_v 3000_o mile_n distant_a from_o old_a therefore_o many_o book_n may_v be_v extant_a in_o england_n a_o long_a time_n afore_o we_o that_o be_v so_o remote_a can_v so_o much_o as_o hear_v any_o sound_n thereof_o and_o those_o few_o that_o come_v to_o our_o knowledge_n be_v common_o extant_a in_o england_n a_o matter_n of_o a_o year_n space_n afore_o and_o sometime_o long_o in_o which_o respect_n many_o thing_n may_v be_v speak_v and_o print_v against_o we_o whereto_o it_o can_v be_v expect_v that_o we_o shall_v return_v any_o speedy_a answer_n and_o though_o it_o be_v now_o twelve_o month_n ago_o or_o more_o since_o master_n rutherfurd_n his_o due_a right_n of_o presbyt_fw-la come_v to_o my_o hand_n yet_o at_o that_o time_n my_o few_o spare_a hour_n from_o my_o constant_a and_o ordinary_a employment_n be_v whole_o take_v up_o otherwise_o so_o that_o i_o can_v not_o attend_v this_o business_n any_o soon_o which_o i_o desire_v may_v be_v accept_v as_o a_o just_a apology_n for_o the_o late_a come_n forth_o of_o this_o reply_n which_o as_o it_o may_v seem_v late_o so_o it_o be_v more_o large_a then_o in_o some_o respect_n i_o can_v have_v desire_v by_o reason_n that_o i_o do_v usual_o transcribe_v those_o word_n of_o master_n rutherfurd_n whereto_o i_o dâ—e_v apply_v my_o answer_n which_o course_n i_o confess_v i_o do_v not_o unwilling_o in_o some_o respect_n choose_v partly_o to_o save_v the_o reader_n a_o labour_n of_o turn_v to_o the_o place_n in_o master_n rutherfurd_n which_o i_o be_o speak_v too_o which_o else_o he_o must_v have_v do_v or_o
have_v take_v thing_n upon_o my_o report_n upon_o trust_n and_o partly_o that_o my_o candid_a and_o fair_a deal_n with_o the_o author_n who_o i_o have_v to_o do_v withal_o may_v the_o better_o appear_v for_o when_o a_o man_n word_n be_v not_o keep_v but_o forsake_v and_o other_o substitute_v in_o their_o place_n his_o mind_n and_o meaning_n may_v soon_o be_v mistake_v and_o represent_v amiss_o unto_o the_o reader_n which_o be_v a_o practice_n that_o i_o have_v often_o see_v but_o never_o approve_v and_o therefore_o i_o have_v not_o use_v it_o for_o i_o will_v be_v loath_a to_o wrong_v any_o man_n special_o a_o man_n of_o such_o worth_a as_o i_o take_v master_n rutherfurd_n to_o be_v by_o impute_v to_o he_o what_o he_o do_v not_o teach_v nor_o deliver_v and_o for_o this_o cause_n it_o be_v that_o i_o have_v usual_o transcribe_v and_o express_v his_o own_o word_n and_o by_o this_o mean_v my_o book_n be_v grow_v to_o the_o great_a bulk_n one_o thing_n more_o i_o will_v advertise_v the_o reader_n of_o and_o then_o i_o shall_v quick_o have_v do_v the_o figure_n from_o 185_o and_o so_o forward_o note_v the_o number_n of_o the_o page_n in_o master_n rutherfurd_n his_o treatise_n be_v set_v down_o twice_o therein_o once_o in_o their_o proper_a place_n and_o again_o after_o the_o page_n 484._o wherefore_o if_o any_o of_o these_o page_n be_v quote_v in_o this_o reply_n as_o some_o of_o they_o be_v if_o the_o thing_n that_o be_v allege_v be_v not_o find_v in_o the_o page_n that_o be_v name_v look_v for_o it_o in_o the_o other_o place_n of_o the_o book_n where_o be_v the_o same_o figure_n and_o there_o you_o may_v find_v it_o courteous_a reader_n study_v the_o truth_n in_o a_o way_n of_o piety_n and_o peace_n be_v zealous_a for_o it_o but_o lose_v not_o love_v to_o the_o saint_n beware_v when_o the_o world_n be_v fill_v with_o dispute_n about_o discipline_n that_o thou_o be_v not_o draw_v only_o to_o erroneous_a opinion_n in_o main_a matter_n of_o doctrine_n be_v sure_a to_o practice_v and_o express_v the_o power_n of_o godliness_n in_o humility_n of_o mind_n mortification_n of_o thy_o own_o corruption_n faith_n in_o the_o lord_n jesus_n and_o love_n to_o all_o his_o redeem_v and_o be_v not_o by_o any_o mean_v draw_v away_o from_o these_o thing_n which_o do_v so_o main_o conduce_v to_o thy_o salvation_n final_o as_o the_o holy_a ghost_n say_v phil._n 4._o 8_o 9_o whatsoever_o thing_n be_v true_a whatsoever_o thing_n be_v honest_a whatsoever_o thing_n be_v just_a whatsoever_o thing_n be_v lovely_a pure_a and_o of_o good_a report_n if_o there_o be_v any_o virtue_n if_o there_o be_v any_o praise_n think_v on_o these_o thing_n and_o do_v they_o and_o the_o god_n of_o peace_n shall_v be_v with_o thou_o improve_v i_o pray_v such_o interest_n as_o thou_o have_v in_o god_n through_o the_o mediator_n by_o afford_v the_o help_n of_o thy_o prayer_n for_o i_o who_o be_o true_o desirous_a of_o thy_o salvation_n r._n m._n decemb._n 10._o 1646._o a_o table_n of_o the_o content_n of_o the_o ensue_a treatise_n chap._n 1._o of_o appeal_v from_o particular_a congregation_n and_o the_o true_a cause_n of_o appeal_v and_o whether_o by_o mr_n rutherford_n his_o doctrine_n in_o this_o point_n there_o must_v not_o be_v appeal_n to_o general_n counsel_n who_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n he_o do_v not_o yet_o deny_v page_n 2._o chap._n 2._o of_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n to_o give_v advite_v and_o counsel_n and_o whether_o from_o thence_o it_o do_v follow_v that_o they_o have_v no_o power_n to_o command_v page_n 11._o chap._n 3._o of_o the_o assembly_n acts._n 15._o whither_o they_o do_v exercise_v any_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n against_o the_o obtruder_n of_o circumcision_n and_o whether_o their_o rebuke_v of_o they_o do_v argue_v the_o affirmative_a page_n 15._o chap._n 4._o of_o the_o dogmatic_a power_n of_o synod_n and_o of_o the_o power_n of_o congregation_n to_o determine_v matter_n among_o themselves_o if_o ability_n serve_v thereto_o page_n 21._o chap._n 5._o again_o of_o that_o assembly_n acts._n 15._o whither_o their_o rebuke_v the_o false_a teacher_n do_v prove_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o excommunication_n in_o synod_n and_o whether_o preach_v do_v prove_v the_o assembly_n where_o it_o be_v to_o be_v a_o church_n page_n 24._o chap._n 6._o whether_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n be_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o of_o the_o dependence_n of_o the_o synagogue_n upon_o the_o synedrion_fw-mi at_o jerusalem_n page_n 30._o chap._n 7._o whether_o the_o lawfulness_n or_o necessity_n of_o appeal_v do_v prove_v a_o superiority_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o synod_n over_o congregation_n and_o of_o sundry_a say_n of_o our_o author_n which_o seem_v to_o interfere_v page_n 39_o chap._n 8._o whether_o antioch_n acts._n 15._o have_v right_a to_o have_v end_v the_o controversy_n among_o themselves_o if_o they_o have_v be_v able_a and_o whether_o their_o send_n to_o jerusalem_n for_o help_v or_o their_o knowledge_n that_o other_o church_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a evil_n or_o the_o party_n among_o themselves_o who_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n do_v prove_v the_o contrary_n and_o of_o supremacy_n of_o power_n in_o congregation_n page_n 49._o chap._n 9_o whether_o the_o congregationall_a way_n or_o the_o presbyterial_a do_v make_v the_o gospel_n more_o defective_a than_o the_o law_n of_o excommunication_n by_o a_o church_n that_o have_v only_o three_o elder_n and_o of_o do_v thing_n sudden_o page_n 66._o chap._n 10._o whether_o the_o necessity_n of_o discipline_n be_v great_a than_o of_o sacrament_n and_o whether_o a_o congregation_n that_o have_v neighbour_n may_v not_o exercise_v entireness_n of_o jurisdiction_n as_o well_o as_o one_o that_o have_v none_o and_o whether_o a_o man_n may_v take_v on_o he_o the_o whole_a minestry_n have_v no_o outward_a call_n thereto_o and_o may_v not_o as_o well_o take_v on_o he_o one_o act_n of_o baptise_v or_o minister_a the_o lord_n supper_n page_n 75._o chap._n 11._o whether_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n flow_v immediate_o from_o the_o essence_n of_o a_o church_n do_v not_o agree_v to_o a_o church_n that_o have_v neighbour_n as_o well_o as_o to_o a_o church_n that_o have_v none_o and_o whether_o otherwise_o neighbour_a church_n be_v not_o a_o loss_n and_o whether_o pretence_n of_o maladministration_n be_v a_o sufficient_a reason_n for_o neighbour_a church_n to_o deprive_v a_o congregation_n of_o its_o power_n page_n 93_o chap._n 12._o whether_o it_o be_v against_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n that_o the_o adverse_a party_n be_v judge_n and_o whether_o mr_n rutherford_n can_v safe_o say_v that_o none_o of_o they_o do_v so_o teach_v and_o whether_o this_o say_n that_o party_n may_v not_o be_v judge_n do_v make_v against_o entireness_n of_o power_n in_o a_o congregation_n any_o more_o than_o in_o a_o general_n or_o national_n council_n page_n 104._o chap._n 13._o whether_o the_o church_n at_o thessalonica_n and_o jerusalem_n be_v each_o of_o they_o more_o than_o one_o congregation_n and_o of_o mr._n baynes_n his_o judgement_n therein_o of_o the_o assembly_n mention_v luke_n 12._o and_o whether_o our_o saviour_n do_v there_o speak_v to_o his_o disciple_n only_o or_o to_o all_o the_o people_n also_o page_n 112._o chap._n 14._o whether_o the_o church_n at_o corinth_n be_v one_o church_n meet_v distributive_o in_o sundry_a congregation_n or_o whether_o it_o be_v only_o one_o congregation_n and_o whether_o 1_o cor._n 14._o 23._o if_o the_o whole_a church_n come_v together_o in_o some_o place_n etc._n etc._n do_v make_v for_o sundry_a congregation_n or_o for_o one_o only_a page_n 123._o chap._n 15._o whether_o the_o church_n at_o ephesus_n be_v more_o in_o number_n then_o corinth_n and_o jerusalem_n and_o the_o judgement_n of_o mr_n baynes_n whether_o that_o church_n be_v many_o congregation_n or_o one_o only_a page_n 137._o chap._n 16._o whether_o the_o church_n at_o antioch_n be_v only_o one_o congregation_n and_o whether_o acts._n 14._o 27._o and_o 15._o 30._o do_v not_o prove_v the_o affirmative_a page_n 140._o chap._n 17._o whether_o or_o no_o liberty_n be_v give_v by_o christ_n to_o the_o people_n but_o woman_n must_v exercise_v the_o same_o as_o well_o as_o man_n and_o of_o the_o people_n liberty_n about_o ordination_n or_o the_o call_n of_o minister_n page_n 146._o chap._n 18._o of_o mr_n rutherford_n report_n of_o synodical_a proposition_n in_o new-england_n page_n 151._o chap._n 19_o of_o the_o appeal_v of_o luther_n and_o cranmer_n and_o of_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o general_a counsel_n deny_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n whether_o therein_o be_v do_v not_o contradict_v himself_o and_o also_o overthrow_v the_o jurisdiction_n of_o classical_a provincial_n and_o national_n assembly_n page_n 153._o chap._n 20._o if_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n teach_v all_o
mr._n tompsons_n name_n and_o i_o and_o chap._n 1._o page_n 9_o of_o the_o answer_n he_o say_v we_o there_o teach_v that_o there_o be_v a_o power_n of_o clear_n truth_n dogmatical_o &_o that_o ultimate_o where_o the_o controversy_n be_v end_v but_o he_o say_v we_o will_v have_v this_o vltimate_a power_n not_o in_o a_o synod_n only_o but_o also_o in_o a_o congregation_n and_o then_o no_o answer_v three_o thing_n which_o there_o ensue_v answ_n our_o word_n be_v these_o by_o power_n of_o decree_n we_o understand_v power_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n dogmatical_o for_o the_o word_n translate_v decree_n be_v dogmata_fw-la in_o the_o original_a act._n 16._o 4._o and_o this_o power_n we_o confess_v be_v in_o a_o synod_n though_o not_o all_o in_o a_o synod_n alone_o but_o also_o in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o single_a congregation_n now_o these_o bring_v our_o word_n if_o therefore_o this_o reverend_a brother_n will_v overthrow_v our_o tenent_n in_o this_o particular_a he_o shall_v have_v prove_v that_o there_o be_v not_o any_o power_n as_o all_o in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o single_a congregation_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n dogmatical_o this_o indeed_o have_v be_v direct_o contrary_a to_o what_o we_o teach_v but_o this_o be_v neither_o prove_v nor_o once_o attempt_v to_o prove_v and_o therefore_o our_o tenent_n herein_o do_v yet_o stand_v good_a for_o any_o thing_n he_o have_v say_v to_o the_o contrary_n and_o no_o marvel_n siâ—h_v the_o express_a word_n of_o the_o text_n do_v witness_v that_o every_o bishop_n have_v power_n and_o be_v boand_v by_o his_o office_n and_o duty_n by_o sound_a doctrine_n both_o to_o exhort_v and_o convince_v gainsayet_n tit._n 1._o 9_o and_o according_o the_o presbytery_n of_o antioch_n do_v labour_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n in_o that_o controversy_n about_o circumcision_n and_o have_v much_o disputation_n about_o it_o among_o themselves_o afore_o there_o be_v any_o speech_n of_o send_v to_o jerusalem_n for_o help_v act._n 15._o 2._o which_o show_v that_o they_o have_v power_n or_o right_a to_o have_v clear_v the_o matter_n among_o themselves_o if_o ability_n have_v serve_v or_o else_o this_o endeavour_n have_v be_v sinful_a as_o be_v a_o attempt_v to_o do_v that_o whereto_o they_o have_v no_o right_n so_o that_o for_o aught_o we_o yet_o so_o the_o power_n that_o we_o speak_v of_o and_o which_o we_o hold_v to_o be_v in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o congregation_n be_v there_o indeed_o by_o the_o appointment_n of_o the_o lord_n but_o let_v we_o hear_v master_n rutherford_n answer_v first_o say_v he_o they_o seem_v to_o make_v this_o dogmatic_a power_n a_o church_n power_n and_o the_o exercise_n thereof_o formal_o a_o act_n of_o church_n government_n and_o so_o it_o must_v be_v church_n power_n and_o church_n government_n in_o the_o synod_n as_o well_o as_o in_o the_o congregation_n answ_n whence_o do_v it_o seem_v that_o we_o do_v so_o make_v it_o be_v there_o any_o such_o word_n as_o here_o he_o set_v down_o or_o any_o word_n equivalent_a thereto_o or_o do_v the_o place_n make_v any_o mention_n of_o church-power_n and_o church_n government_n at_o all_o or_o be_v there_o so_o much_o as_o one_o word_n that_o look_v that_o way_n if_o there_o be_v let_v our_o brother_n say_v that_o we_o seem_v to_o â—each_v as_o he_o do_v report_n but_o if_o there_o be_v not_o we_o be_v sorry_a he_o shall_v report_v we_o to_o teach_v oâ—_n seem_v to_o teach_v that_o which_o to_o our_o remembrance_n we_o never_o say_v nor_o think_v and_o sure_o it_o be_v we_o have_v express_o say_v the_o direct_a contrary_n in_o page_n 7_o the_o page_n next_o save_v one_o afore_o this_o which_o here_o he_o be_v deal_v against_o where_o we_o have_v these_o word_n it_o seem_v to_o we_o say_v we_o that_o this_o power_n viz._n by_o disquisition_n and_o disputation_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o rule_n and_o then_o to_o command_v obedience_n thereto_o be_v not_o proper_o a_o power_n and_o exercise_v of_o government_n and_o jurisdiction_n but_o a_o power_n of_o doctrine_n and_o so_o a_o synod_n be_v rather_o a_o teach_n then_o a_o govern_v church_n these_o be_v our_o word_n in_o the_o page_n afore_o allege_a wherein_o we_o plain_o express_v what_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n seem_v unto_o we_o to_o be_v even_o the_o direct_a contrary_a to_o that_o which_o he_o say_v we_o seem_v to_o make_v it_o we_o on_o the_o one_o side_n affirm_v and_o express_v that_o it_o seem_v to_o we_o the_o power_n of_o a_o synod_n be_v no_o power_n of_o government_n and_o jurisdiction_n but_o a_o power_n of_o doctrine_n and_o he_o on_o the_o other_o side_n report_v that_o we_o seem_v to_o make_v the_o exercise_n of_o dogmatic_a power_n to_o be_v formal_o a_o act_n of_o church-government_n and_o so_o to_o place_v church-government_n in_o the_o synod_n in_o which_o report_n we_o must_v needs_o say_v we_o be_v plain_o misreported_n his_o second_o answer_n be_v this_o the_o last_o period_n and_o conclusion_n of_o the_o controversy_n can_v be_v both_o in_o the_o congregation_n by_o right_a only_o and_o in_o the_o synod_n by_o right_a only_o for_o two_o last_o power_n can_v be_v proper_o in_o two_o subordinate_a judicature_n answ_n this_o be_v very_o true_a but_o it_o touch_v not_o we_o at_o all_o for_o we_o never_o say_v the_o last_o period_n of_o the_o controversy_n be_v both_o in_o the_o congregation_n only_o and_o in_o the_o synod_n only_o if_o we_o have_v so_o say_v let_v the_o place_n be_v produce_v where_o we_o have_v say_v it_o for_o the_o place_n by_o he_o allege_v do_v afford_v we_o no_o such_o thing_n nor_o any_o place_n else_o that_o we_o know_v of_o all_o that_o the_o place_n afford_v concern_v this_o point_n be_v only_o this_o that_o there_o be_v a_o power_n of_o clear_n the_o truth_n dogmatical_o in_o a_o synod_n though_o not_o in_o a_o synod_n only_o but_o also_o in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o single_a congregation_n and_o this_o doctrine_n i_o hope_v our_o brother_n will_v not_o deny_v but_o whether_o this_o power_n be_v last_o in_o the_o synod_n or_o in_o the_o congregationall_a presbytery_n of_o this_o we_o do_v not_o speak_v at_o all_o much_o less_o do_v we_o say_v as_o he_o do_v apprehend_v and_o report_v that_o this_o power_n be_v both_o last_o in_o the_o synod_n and_o last_o in_o the_o congregation_n too_o wherefore_o our_o defence_n in_o this_o particular_a must_v needs_o be_v this_o that_o what_o here_o he_o confute_v to_o be_v out_v be_v such_o a_o thing_n as_o never_o fall_v from_o our_o mouth_n or_o pen_n nor_o for_o aught_o we_o know_v do_v never_o enter_v into_o our_o thought_n three_o he_o say_v if_o a_o controversy_n concern_v many_o congregation_n as_o this_o do_v act._n 15._o i_o see_v not_o how_o a_o congregation_n except_o they_o transgress_v their_o line_n can_v final_o determine_v it_o answ_n neither_o do_v this_o touch_v we_o except_o we_o have_v say_v that_o a_o congregation_n may_v final_o determine_v controversy_n which_o concern_v many_o church_n which_o yet_o we_o have_v not_o say_v as_o for_o that_o controversy_n act._n 15._o it_o be_v plain_a from_o verse_n 2_o that_o antioch_n do_v endeavour_v to_o have_v end_v it_o among_o themselves_o so_o far_o as_o they_o be_v trouble_v therewith_o for_o some_o teach_n that_o corrupt_a doctrine_n among_o they_o they_o have_v much_o disputation_n about_o the_o point_n afore_o they_o determine_v to_o send_v out_o for_o help_v elsewhere_o now_o to_o what_o end_n be_v thus_o much_o disputation_n if_o they_o have_v no_o right_a to_o determine_v the_o matter_n may_v they_o not_o better_o have_v spare_v their_o pain_n or_o do_v they_o not_o transgress_v their_o line_n in_o attempt_v what_o they_o do_v attempt_v sure_o it_o seem_v they_o do_v if_o they_o have_v not_o right_a to_o determine_v the_o matter_n but_o for_o our_o part_n since_o we_o do_v not_o find_v they_o in_o the_o least_o reprove_v by_o the_o holy_a ghost_n for_o this_o attempt_n therefore_o we_o can_v but_o think_v they_o do_v well_o therein_o and_o thereupon_o it_o follow_v that_o if_o antioch_n be_v a_o congregationall_a church_n as_o it_o seem_v to_o we_o it_o be_v from_o act._n 14._o 27._o either_o this_o controversy_n do_v trouble_v no_o church_n but_o antioch_n only_o or_o else_o when_o a_o controversy_n or_o corrupt_a opinion_n do_v trouble_v many_o church_n one_o of_o they_o may_v lawful_o determine_v and_o end_v it_o so_o far_o at_o it_o concern_v themselves_o chap._n v._n again_o of_o that_o assembly_n act._n 15._o whether_o their_o rebuke_v the_o false_a teacher_n do_v prove_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o excommunication_n in_o synod_n and_o whether_o preach_v do_v prove_v the_o assembly_n where_o it_o be_v to_o be_v a_o church_n the_o new_a place_n where_o i_o find_v he_o except_v
conceive_v be_v very_o true_o speak_v and_o thereupon_o it_o follow_v that_o there_o be_v a_o supremacy_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o that_o church_n of_o antioch_n and_o no_o necessity_n of_o appeal_n from_o they_o to_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o other_o for_o â—ith_o the_o synod_n be_v only_o to_o command_v the_o church_n to_o do_v their_o duty_n and_o to_o remit_v the_o censure_n of_o offender_n to_o the_o church_n themselves_o to_o who_o the_o offender_n belong_v it_o plain_o appear_v thereby_o where_o the_o supremacy_n of_o jurisdiction_n do_v lie_v the_o other_o place_n be_v in_o his_o page_n 307._o where_o we_o have_v these_o word_n viz._n the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n ordinary_a intensive_a and_o quo_fw-la ad_fw-la essentiam_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la ministerialis_fw-la according_a to_o the_o entire_a essence_n of_o a_o ministerial_a church_n be_v as_o perfect_a and_o complete_a in_o one_o single_a congregation_n as_o in_o a_o provincial_n as_o in_o a_o national_n yea_o as_o in_o the_o catholic_a visible_a body_n whereof_o christ_n be_v the_o head_n now_o if_o there_o be_v such_o perfect_a &_o complete_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o a_o single_a congregation_n i_o know_v not_o how_o there_o can_v be_v such_o necessity_n of_o appeal_v from_o they_o to_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o other_o as_o he_o be_v plead_v for_o nor_o how_o that_o supreme_a and_o independent_a power_n in_o congregation_n can_v be_v deny_v which_o here_o he_o dispute_v against_o for_o let_v this_o complete_a and_o perfect_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v acknowledge_v as_o due_a to_o such_o church_n and_o appeal_v from_o they_o to_o other_o jurisdiction_n will_v be_v of_o small_a necessity_n or_o use_n i_o know_v indeed_o this_o reverend_a author_n say_v in_o the_o page_n last_o mention_v and_o within_o a_o few_o line_n of_o the_o word_n which_o i_o have_v here_o allege_v that_o a_o congregation_n be_v so_o a_o part_n of_o the_o presbytery_n that_o it_o have_v not_o a_o whole_a entire_a complete_a intensive_a power_n over_o its_o own_o member_n to_o excommunicate_v they_o and_o therefore_o the_o consociate_v church_n must_v have_v a_o power_n over_o the_o member_n of_o a_o congregation_n which_o word_n i_o confess_v seem_v not_o well_o to_o agree_v with_o the_o former_a because_o in_o the_o one_o entire_a complete_a intensive_a power_n be_v deny_v to_o a_o congregation_n and_o in_o the_o other_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n ordinary_a intensive_a be_v say_v to_o be_v as_o complete_a and_o perfect_a in_o the_o congregation_n as_o in_o the_o great_a church_n but_o it_o be_v not_o the_o latter_a word_n but_o the_o former_a which_o i_o do_v stand_v upon_o and_o by_o they_o as_o i_o conceive_v the_o supremacy_n of_o congregation_n be_v establish_v and_o the_o necessity_n of_o appeal_n from_o they_o to_o other_o jurisdiction_n be_v clear_o take_v away_o for_o if_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v as_o entire_a perfect_a and_o complete_a in_o the_o congregation_n as_o in_o the_o great_a church_n as_o our_o brother_n express_o affirm_v it_o to_o be_v i_o know_v not_o the_o reason_n why_o there_o must_v be_v appeal_n from_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o the_o congregation_n unto_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o those_o other_o church_n if_o the_o power_n speak_v of_o be_v more_o imperfect_a and_o incomplete_a in_o the_o congregation_n than_o it_o be_v in_o the_o other_o church_n than_o there_o may_v be_v more_o reason_n or_o fair_a pretence_n for_o those_o appeal_n but_o since_o our_o author_n confess_v it_o be_v no_o more_o entire_a complete_a and_o perfect_a in_o these_o then_o in_o the_o congregation_n but_o as_o complete_a and_o perfect_a in_o the_o congregation_n as_o it_o be_v in_o the_o other_o i_o be_o yet_o to_o seek_v of_o a_o sufficient_a ground_n for_o the_o necessity_n of_o appeal_n from_o the_o jurisdiction_n in_o a_o congregation_n for_o be_v it_o reasonable_a to_o appeal_v from_o one_o judicatory_a to_o another_o and_o yet_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v as_o entire_a complete_a and_o perfect_a in_o the_o former_a from_o which_o the_o appeal_n be_v make_v as_o in_o the_o latter_a to_o which_o the_o cause_n be_v bring_v by_o such_o appeal_n it_o seem_v by_o such_o appeal_v we_o be_v not_o like_a to_o be_v much_o helper_n nor_o much_o to_o mend_v the_o matter_n above_o what_o it_o be_v before_o and_o therefore_o the_o usefulness_n and_o necessity_n thereof_o be_v still_o unclâ—â—â—â—_n i_o think_v the_o brethren_n err_v in_o this_o to_o teach_v that_o antioch_n have_v power_n to_o determine_v the_o controversy_n act._n 15._o when_o the_o church_n of_o syria_n and_o cicilia_n to_o their_o knowledge_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a question_n as_o verse_n 24._o may_v clear_v i_o doubt_v much_o if_o they_o have_v power_n to_o determine_v a_o question_n that_o so_o much_o concern_v all_o the_o church_n answ_n it_o be_v not_o clear_a from_o verse_n 24._o nor_o from_o any_o part_n of_o the_o chapter_n as_o far_o as_o i_o can_v find_v that_o antioch_n do_v know_v that_o other_o church_n be_v trouble_v with_o this_o question_n and_o if_o they_o have_v know_v it_o i_o see_v nothing_o therein_o but_o they_o may_v notwithstanding_o lawful_o end_v the_o matter_n so_o far_o as_o concern_v themselves_o for_o when_o this_o question_n be_v start_v among_o they_o by_o such_o as_o come_v from_o judea_n and_o teach_v this_o corrupt_a doctrine_n at_o antioch_n the_o text_n be_v very_o clear_a verse_n 2_o that_o they_o have_v much_o disputation_n among_o themselves_o to_o have_v end_v the_o matter_n afore_o there_o be_v any_o speech_n of_o send_v to_o jerusalem_n which_o disputation_n be_v a_o argument_n that_o they_o have_v right_a to_o have_v end_v it_o if_o ability_n have_v noâ—_n be_v want_v and_o as_o for_o our_o brother_n reason_n for_o the_o contrary_n take_v from_o their_o knowledge_n that_o the_o other_o church_n of_o syria_n and_o cicilia_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a question_n there_o be_v not_o one_o word_n in_o the_o verse_n allege_v to_o show_v that_o antioch_n have_v knowledge_n of_o any_o such_o matter_n nor_o be_v syria_n and_o cicilia_n once_o mention_v therein_o and_o though_o they_o be_v mention_v verse_n 23._o yet_o neither_o do_v this_o verse_n declare_v that_o antioch_n have_v any_o knowledge_n that_o this_o question_n have_v ever_o trouble_v those_o other_o church_n say_v it_o be_v true_a that_o indeed_o they_o have_v be_v trouble_v therewith_o and_o that_o the_o epistle_n from_o the_o synod_n do_v intimate_v no_o less_o this_o may_v prove_v that_o when_o the_o epistle_n come_v to_o be_v read_v at_o antioch_n than_o antioch_n by_o this_o mean_n may_v come_v to_o the_o knowledge_n thereof_o but_o all_o this_o do_v not_o prove_v that_o antioch_n know_v so_o much_o afore_o and_o therefore_o they_o may_v endeavour_v to_o end_v the_o matter_n among_o themselves_o as_o not_o know_v for_o any_o thing_n our_o author_n have_v yet_o bring_v to_o the_o contrary_a that_o any_o other_o church_n beside_o themselves_o be_v trouble_v therewith_o but_o suppose_v they_o have_v know_v so_o much_o i_o see_v nothing_o in_o this_o to_o hinder_v but_o antioch_n may_v lawful_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n in_o the_o question_n and_o censure_v such_o of_o their_o church_n as_o shall_v obstinate_o hold_v and_o teach_v that_o false_a doctrine_n notwithstanding_o their_o knowledge_n that_o other_o have_v be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a doctrine_n and_o teacher_n suppose_v a_o christian_a family_n be_v trouble_v with_o lie_a child_n or_o servant_n or_o such_o as_o be_v disobedient_a and_o undutiful_a in_o one_o kind_n or_o in_o another_o suppose_v they_o also_o know_v that_o their_o neighbour_n family_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a shall_v this_o knowledge_n of_o they_o hinder_v the_o parent_n or_o master_n in_o such_o a_o family_n from_o censure_v or_o correct_v these_o that_o be_v under_o their_o government_n according_a to_o their_o demerit_n if_o not_o why_o shall_v antioch_n be_v hinder_v from_o censure_a offend_a member_n of_o their_o church_n only_o upon_o this_o ground_n because_o to_o their_o knowledge_n other_o church_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a offender_n a_o city_n or_o corporation_n be_v trouble_v with_o drunkard_n with_o thief_n or_o other_o vicious_a and_o lewd_a person_n and_o know_v that_o other_o city_n or_o corporation_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a a_o national_n church_n as_o scotland_n for_o example_n be_v trouble_v with_o obtruder_n of_o ceremony_n service_n book_n episcopacy_n or_o other_o corruption_n and_o know_v that_o england_n or_o other_o church_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a shall_v scotland_n now_o be_v hinder_v from_o remove_v these_o corruption_n and_o the_o obtruder_n of_o they_o from_o among_o themselves_o only_o upon_o this_o ground_n because_o england_n to_o their_o knowledge_n be_v trouble_v with_o the_o like_a or_o shall_v the_o corporation_n â—ee_z hinder_v from_o
even_o as_o a_o king_n ignorant_a of_o necessary_a civil_a duty_n can_v command_v they_o not_o because_o he_o want_v kingly_a power_n to_o command_v these_o civil_a thing_n for_o undeniable_o he_o be_v a_o judge_n in_o civil_a thing_n but_o because_o he_o have_v not_o knowledge_n of_o they_o and_o may_v we_o not_o say_v in_o like_a sort_n though_o a_o church_n want_v the_o knowledge_n of_o the_o truth_n in_o some_o particular_a question_n yet_o they_o have_v a_o church_n power_n to_o determine_v such_o question_n &_o to_o command_v obedience_n therein_o and_o it_o be_v by_o accident_n they_o can_v in_o that_o state_n determine_v right_o because_o they_o will_v not_o be_v ignorant_a of_o the_o truth_n therein_o not_o because_o they_o want_v church-power_n to_o determine_v such_o matter_n but_o because_o they_o have_v not_o the_o knowledge_n of_o they_o again_o a_o little_a after_o in_o the_o same_o p._n he_o tell_v we_o that_o christianity_n add_v no_o new_a fatherly_a power_n to_o a_o father_n over_o his_o child_n nor_o give_v a_o new_a husband_n right_a to_o the_o husband_n once_o a_o heathen_a over_o his_o wife_n for_o a_o heathen_a father_n be_v as_o essential_o a_o father_n over_o his_o child_n as_o a_o christian_a father_n and_o a_o heathen_a husband_n a_o heathen_a master_n etc._n etc._n be_v all_o as_o essential_o husband_n master_n etc._n etc._n as_o be_v the_o christian_a husband_n master_n etc._n etc._n and_o may_v we_o not_o as_o well_o say_v soundness_n of_o knowledge_n in_o such_o or_o such_o a_o particular_a question_n add_v no_o new_a church_n power_n to_o a_o christian_a church_n over_o their_o own_o member_n nor_o give_v a_o new_a church_n right_a over_o they_o which_o they_o have_v not_o before_o for_o a_o church_n that_o want_v such_o knowledge_n be_v as_o essential_o a_o church_n invest_v with_o church_n power_n over_o her_o member_n as_o be_v another_o church_n for_o aught_o i_o perceive_v the_o case_n be_v alike_o and_o if_o soundness_n of_o knowledge_n do_v not_o give_v to_o a_o church_n their_o church-right_a in_o this_o or_o that_o question_n how_o can_v want_v of_o that_o knowledge_n deprive_v they_o of_o that_o right_a sure_o one_o will_v think_v the_o whole_a substance_n of_o christianity_n may_v do_v as_o much_o for_o the_o add_v of_o kingly_a right_n fatherly_a right_n husband_n right_a etc._n etc._n as_o soundness_n of_o knowledge_n in_o some_o one_o particular_a question_n for_o the_o add_v of_o church_n right_a &_o that_o the_o want_n of_o all_o christianity_n shall_v be_v as_o available_a for_o take_v away_o the_o kingly_a right_n the_o fatherly_a right_n etc._n etc._n as_o the_o want_n of_o knowledge_n in_o one_o particular_a point_n for_o the_o take_z away_o of_o church-right_a and_o since_o we_o have_v our_o brother_n own_o testimony_n clear_a and_o full_a for_o the_o one_o it_o seem_v to_o i_o the_o case_n be_v so_o parallel_a and_o proportionable_a that_o the_o other_o be_v unavoidable_a i_o mean_v thus_o since_o in_o the_o one_o case_n the_o whole_a substance_n of_o christianity_n do_v not_o give_v power_n nor_o the_o want_n thereof_o take_v away_o the_o same_o by_o our_o brother_n own_o teach_n i_o know_v not_o how_o in_o the_o other_o case_n soundness_n of_o knowledge_n in_o one_o particular_a question_n shall_v give_v power_n or_o right_n &_o want_v of_o such_o knowledge_n take_v away_o the_o same_o and_o so_o for_o antioch_n in_o particular_a if_o it_o be_v as_o our_o brother_n suppose_v that_o the_o great_a part_n of_o they_o do_v hold_v against_o the_o truth_n in_o that_o question_n about_o circumcision_n i_o see_v not_o how_o this_o can_v deprive_v they_o of_o their_o church_n right_a which_o they_o have_v before_o as_o for_o our_o brother_n reason_n that_o christ_n have_v give_v no_o ecclesiastical_a right_n and_o power_n to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n but_o only_o for_o the_o truth_n this_o say_n i_o confess_v be_v very_o true_a but_o do_v not_o suffice_v for_o the_o purpose_n for_o which_o he_o bring_v it_o viz._n to_o prove_v that_o antioch_n be_v ignorant_a of_o the_o truth_n in_o that_o question_n about_o circumcision_n or_o hold_v against_o the_o truth_n therein_o do_v thereby_o lose_v their_o church_n right_a to_o determine_v for_o if_o this_o reason_n be_v good_a than_o a_o man_n may_v conclude_v against_o that_o power_n in_o heathen_a king_n parent_n and_o husband_n to_o govern_v their_o subject_n child_n and_o wife_n which_o our_o brother_n as_o we_o hear_v afore_o have_v grant_v and_o teach_v for_o suppose_v that_o antioch_n be_v ignorant_a of_o the_o truth_n in_o that_o particular_a be_v it_o not_o clear_a that_o the_o king_n parent_n and_o husband_n mention_v be_v ignorant_a of_o the_o truth_n in_o many_o more_o matter_n and_o it_o antioch_n do_v hereupon_o loose_v their_o right_n because_o christ_n have_v give_v no_o power_n to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n but_o for_o the_o truth_n how_o will_v it_o be_v avoid_v but_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n â—he_v king_n and_o the_o other_o mention_a must_v likewise_o lose_v their_o right_n to_o govern_v their_o own_o subject_n and_o family_n for_o the_o lord_n give_v no_o right_a i_o hope_v to_o pagan_n against_o the_o truth_n no_o more_o than_o he_o do_v unto_o church_n and_o therefore_o if_o the_o reason_n be_v valid_a and_o strong_a in_o the_o one_o case_n and_o for_o the_o purpose_n for_o which_o our_o brother_n bring_v it_o it_o seem_v to_o be_v as_o strong_a in_o the_o other_o case_n also_o which_o shall_v be_v contrary_a to_o what_o our_o brother_n himself_o do_v teach_v in_o a_o word_n churches_n and_o antioch_n in_o particular_a have_v right_a to_o determine_v question_n and_o they_o ought_v to_o determine_v only_o according_a to_o the_o truth_n they_o have_v formal_o a_o right_a to_o determine_v and_o when_o their_o determination_n be_v according_a to_o truth_n than_o they_o will_v â—ind_v vi_o matâ—â—iâ—_n which_o else_o they_o will_v not_o they_o have_v right_a to_o determine_v in_o fore_n humano_fw-la and_o if_o their_o determination_n be_v for_o matter_n agreeable_a to_o truth_n they_o will_v be_v ratify_v in_o foro_fw-la diuâ—â—o_fw-la but_o not_o else_o now_o our_o brother_n argue_v do_v seem_v to_o confound_v these_o two_o and_o because_o of_o the_o latter_a which_o be_v free_o grant_v he_o will_v conclude_v against_o the_o former_a which_o we_o think_v be_v not_o good_a reason_n but_o on_o the_o contrary_n do_v still_o think_v that_o though_o church_n ought_v to_o give_v out_o no_o determination_n but_o such_o as_o be_v agreeable_a to_o truth_n and_o that_o otherwise_o their_o determination_n in_o respect_n of_o the_o matter_n of_o they_o will_v not_o bind_v before_o god_n yet_o for_o all_o this_o they_o may_v have_v right_a formal_o and_o in_o foro_n humano_fw-la to_o judge_n and_o to_o determine_v of_o such_o thing_n moreover_o if_o this_o be_v grant_v for_o true_a that_o antioch_n when_o they_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n do_v lose_v their_o right_n to_o determine_v controversy_n yet_o we_o be_v not_o hereby_o much_o near_o to_o a_o issue_n unless_o it_o be_v determine_v withal_o who_o must_v be_v judge_n whether_o they_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n or_o no_o and_o the_o reason_n be_v because_o if_o they_o be_v not_o against_o the_o truth_n but_o for_o it_o than_o i_o hope_v it_o will_v be_v grant_v that_o they_o do_v not_o lose_v their_o right_n at_o all_o the_o question_n therefore_o still_o remain_v who_o have_v this_o ministerial_a power_n to_o judge_n whether_o this_o or_o that_o church_n antioch_n or_o any_o other_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n or_o for_o it_o and_o unless_o this_o be_v clear_v we_o be_v but_o where_o we_o be_v before_o but_o to_o draw_v towards_o a_o end_n of_o this_o passage_n about_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n whether_o they_o have_v right_a to_o determine_v controversy_n when_o ability_n fail_v or_o whether_o they_o do_v when_o lose_v that_o right_n i_o will_v here_o transcribe_v a_o few_o word_n of_o our_o brother_n as_o i_o find_v they_o in_o his_o second_o 331._o page_n wherein_o he_o either_o clear_o yield_v the_o cause_n and_o say_v the_o same_o that_o we_o do_v or_o i_o be_o much_o mistake_v the_o word_n be_v these_o there_o be_v a_o difference_n between_o ability_n to_o judge_v and_o right_a or_o power_n to_o judge_v a_o presbyterial_a church_n and_o he_o dispute_v in_o six_o page_n together_o to_o prove_v antioch_n such_o a_o one_o page_n 470._o 471._o etc._n etc._n sequ_o may_v have_v right_a jus_o and_o ecclesiastical_a law_n to_o judge_v of_o a_o point_n to_o the_o judge_v whereof_o they_o want_v ability_n therefore_o de_fw-la facto_fw-la it_o belong_v to_o a_o high_a synod_n where_o more_o learned_a man_n be_v though_o the_o jure_v the_o presbytery_n may_v judge_v it_o these_o word_n i_o wish_v to_o be_v well_o consider_v for_o
whereas_o in_o the_o place_n we_o have_v be_v speak_v of_o he_o say_v antioch_n the_o great_a part_n of_o they_o be_v against_o the_o truth_n do_v lose_v their_o jus_o their_o right_n to_o determine_v for_o which_o as_o we_o have_v hear_v he_o give_v this_o reason_n because_o christ_n have_v give_v no_o right_a and_o power_n to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n but_o for_o it_o yet_o now_o we_o see_v he_o grant_v distinction_n between_o ability_n and_o right_n and_o say_v a_o presbyterial_a church_n may_v still_o retain_v this_o latter_a of_o their_o right_n even_o then_o when_o they_o want_v the_o other_o of_o ability_n which_o two_o saying_n whether_o they_o do_v perfect_o agree_v and_o whether_o in_o the_o latter_a of_o they_o he_o do_v not_o plain_o come_v up_o to_o we_o against_o who_o he_o have_v be_v dispute_v in_o the_o former_a i_o leave_v it_o to_o the_o wise_a in_o heart_n and_o especial_o to_o himself_o to_o consider_v for_o for_o my_o part_n i_o must_v confess_v that_o these_o two_o say_n a_o presbyterial_a church_n as_o antioch_n may_v have_v right_a jus_o to_o judge_v a_o point_n to_o the_o judge_v whereof_o they_o may_v want_v ability_n and_o antioch_n a_o presbyterial_a church_n want_v ability_n do_v thereby_o lose_v their_o right_n or_o jus_o to_o determine_v the_o point_n these_o two_o i_o say_v be_v such_o say_n as_o be_v not_o easy_a for_o i_o to_o reconcile_v last_o if_o it_o be_v say_v our_o brother_n do_v not_o deny_v unto_o antioch_n or_o a_o church_n in_o error_n all_o power_n simple_o to_o determine_v but_o only_o to_o determine_v tali_fw-la mode_n that_o be_v to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n for_o his_o word_n be_v they_o lose_v their_o jus_o their_o right_a eatenus_fw-la in_o so_o far_o i_o answer_v he_o have_v such_o a_o word_n indeed_o as_o eatenus_fw-la in_o so_o far_o but_o if_o any_o shall_v say_v he_o mean_v no_o more_o in_o this_o dispute_n but_o only_o that_o such_o a_o church_n have_v no_o right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n i_o conceive_v that_o he_o that_o shall_v so_o say_v shall_v therein_o impute_v some_o fault_n unto_o our_o brother_n even_o the_o fault_n of_o wrest_a mr._n tompsons_n tenent_n and_o i_o and_o suggest_v against_o we_o unto_o his_o reader_n as_o if_o we_o have_v hold_v such_o a_o thing_n as_o we_o never_o write_v nor_o think_v for_o it_o be_v plain_a that_o our_o brother_n in_o his_o pag._n 424._o be_v dispute_v against_o we_o for_o he_o say_v that_o we_o teach_v the_o church_n of_o antioch_n have_v jus_o power_n to_o judge_n and_o determine_v the_o controversy_n but_o because_o of_o the_o difficulty_n have_v not_o light_a to_o judge_v thereof_o and_o set_v down_o master_n tompsons_n name_n and_o i_o as_o the_o man_n that_o so_o teach_v in_o answer_n page_n 42._o and_o a_o few_o line_n after_o he_o say_v i_o think_v the_o brethren_n err_v in_o this_o to_o teach_v that_o antioch_n have_v power_n to_o determine_v the_o controversy_n act._n 15._o and_o then_o he_o give_v two_o reason_n for_o the_o contrary_n so_o that_o it_o be_v manifest_a that_o he_o intend_v this_o dispute_n against_o we_o now_o what_o have_v we_o say_v in_o this_o matter_n have_v we_o deliver_v any_o such_o thing_n that_o antioch_n have_v right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n let_v the_o answer_n be_v view_v in_o the_o place_n which_o he_o allege_v viz._n page_n 42._o and_o i_o be_o sure_a no_o such_o gross_a tenent_n will_v be_v there_o find_v no_o nor_o any_o where_o else_o in_o our_o writing_n that_o which_o we_o have_v say_v be_v this_o that_o antioch_n have_v right_a to_o have_v determine_v the_o matter_n if_o ability_n have_v serve_v thereto_o but_o for_o right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n we_o never_o speak_v one_o word_n that_o sound_v that_o way_n our_o brother_n therefore_o intend_v this_o dispute_n against_o we_o and_o plain_o express_v so_o much_o and_o our_o tenent_n be_v no_o other_o than_o as_o i_o have_v say_v it_o must_v therefore_o needs_o follow_v that_o his_o intendment_n be_v that_o antioch_n have_v no_o right_a to_o determine_v that_o matter_n but_o for_o right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n he_o can_v confute_v such_o a_o tenent_n as_o we_o we_o never_o have_v deliver_v any_o such_o thing_n but_o he_o must_v withal_o be_v culpable_a of_o manifest_a mistake_n and_o misreporting_a of_o we_o to_o the_o world_n and_o we_o be_v and_o must_v be_v slow_a to_o believe_v that_o a_o man_n of_o such_o worth_n will_v willing_o do_v we_o such_o wrong_n it_o remain_v therefore_o that_o right_o to_o determine_v and_o not_o right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o truth_n be_v the_o thing_n which_o he_o opposite_a as_o we_o and_o therefore_o it_o be_v that_o in_o this_o sense_n and_o meaning_n i_o have_v here_o apply_v my_o answer_n the_o 〈…〉_z thus_o much_o that_o antioch_n have_v right_a to_o determine_v against_o the_o 〈…〉_z that_o may_v soon_o be_v confute_v but_o the_o tenent_n be_v none_o of_o we_o that_o 〈…〉_z to_o determine_v be_v indeed_o our_o tenent_n and_o whether_o this_o be_v confute_v 〈…〉_z let_v the_o wise_a and_o judicious_a consider_v chap._n ix_o whether_o the_o congregationall_a way_n or_o the_o presbyterial_a do_v make_v the_o gospel_n more_o difficultive_a than_o the_o law_n of_o excommunication_n by_o a_o church_n that_o have_v only_o three_o elder_n and_o of_o do_v thing_n sudden_o in_o the_o latter_a end_n of_o his_o page_n 424_o meaning_n mr_n tâ—mpson_n and_o i_o and_o allege_v page_n 17_o 18._o of_o the_o answer_n he_o write_v that_o we_o say_v our_o opposite_n do_v much_o judaize_v in_o that_o they_o multiply_v appeal_n upon_o appeal_n from_o a_o congregation_n to_o a_o classis_fw-la then_o to_o a_o synod_n then_o to_o a_o national_n assembly_n then_o to_o a_o oecâ—â—â—â—nicke_a council_n and_o this_o way_n while_o the_o world_n endure_v cause_n be_v never_o determine_v and_o synod_n can_v always_o be_v have_v even_o as_o in_o jerusalem_n the_o supreme_a judicature_n be_v far_o remote_a from_o all_o proselyte_n as_o from_o the_o eunuch_n of_o ethiopia_n act._n 8._o and_o from_o the_o remote_o part_n of_o the_o holy_a land_n but_o god_n have_v provide_v better_a for_o we_o in_o the_o new_a testament_n where_o every_o congregation_n which_o be_v at_o hand_n may_v decide_v the_o controversy_n and_o then_o page_z 425._o he_o subjoin_v his_o answer_n answ_n though_o i_o deny_v not_o but_o some_o of_o the_o thing_n here_o allege_v be_v write_v by_o we_o in_o the_o paâ—â—â—_n name_v yet_o that_o they_o be_v write_v for_o the_o purpose_n which_o our_o brother_n express_v viz._n to_o show_v that_o our_o brethren_n of_o the_o opposite_a judgement_n do_v much_o judaize_v that_o i_o do_v utter_o deny_v for_o the_o place_n be_v view_v will_v plain_o witness_v that_o we_o bring_v the_o thing_n allege_v for_o another_o end_n viz._n to_o show_v whether_o the_o way_n that_o be_v call_v independency_n do_v make_v the_o people_n as_o some_o have_v think_v of_o it_o more_o defective_a and_o improvident_a than_o their_o law_n for_o this_o be_v object_v against_o that_o way_n we_o in_o answer_n thereto_o do_v show_v by_o sundry_a particular_n that_o it_o be_v not_o that_o way_n that_o be_v just_o culpable_a in_o this_o respect_n but_o the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n of_o the_o other_o judgement_n one_o way_n on_o the_o one_o side_n make_v the_o state_n of_o christian_n in_o these_o day_n in_o some_o thing_n equal_a to_o the_o jew_n and_o in_o other_o thing_n more_o excellent_a and_o on_o the_o other_o side_n the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n make_v our_o condition_n in_o many_o thing_n more_o defective_a than_o be_v the_o condition_n of_o the_o jew_n so_o that_o not_o judayze_a but_o make_v our_o condition_n more_o defective_a than_o the_o jew_n be_v the_o thing_n which_o we_o here_o note_v in_o the_o doctrine_n of_o our_o brethren_n nor_o do_v i_o see_v how_o our_o brother_n in_o his_o answer_n do_v free_a their_o doctrine_n and_o way_n from_o be_v just_o culpable_a in_o this_o respect_n if_o we_o have_v intend_v the_o thing_n which_o he_o report_v we_o will_v never_o have_v use_v such_o a_o reason_n as_o he_o true_o report_v we_o to_o use_v viz._n that_o by_o appeal_n upon_o appeal_n cause_n according_a to_o our_o brethren_n way_n may_v be_v so_o protract_v as_o never_o to_o be_v determine_v nor_o end_v for_o this_o reason_n have_v neither_o strength_n nor_o colour_n of_o strength_n for_o such_o a_o purpose_n as_o he_o say_v we_o bring_v it_o for_o inasmuch_o as_o it_o be_v well_o know_v that_o the_o jew_n have_v a_o supreme_a judicatory_a for_o the_o final_a end_n of_o cause_n among_o they_o and_o therefore_o to_o say_v that_o our_o brethren_n do_v judaize_v and_o then_o to_o give_v that_o for_o a_o
of_o nice_a the_o first_o general_a council_n of_o constantinople_n with_o other_o counsel_n and_o author_n witness_v the_o same_o pag._n 201_o 202._o and_o in_o a_o three_o place_n he_o grant_v that_o all_o matter_n in_o the_o church_n must_v be_v do_v with_o the_o people_n consent_n consentiente_fw-la plebe_fw-la allege_v a_o matter_n of_o 18._o or_o 19_o author_n for_o the_o same_o tenet_n peaceable_a plea_n p._n 49._o and_o in_o another_o place_n he_o allege_v and_o approve_v the_o judgement_n of_o mr._n calderwood_n and_o mr._n cartwright_n affirm_v that_o this_o liberty_n be_v purchase_v by_o the_o blood_n of_o christ_n due_a right_n second_o pag._n 464._o all_o which_o do_v plain_o show_v that_o in_o his_o judgement_n the_o people_n have_v some_o 〈◊〉_d or_o privilege_n or_o right_a in_o church_n matter_n yea_o as_o himself_o say_v in_o this_o they_o have_v divinum_fw-la jus_o god_n right_a and_o yet_o for_o all_o this_o the_o apostle_n word_n do_v plain_o forbid_v woman_n to_o speak_v in_o the_o church_n 1_o cor._n 14._o 34._o 1_o tim._n 2._o 12._o which_o very_o prohibition_n to_o woman_n do_v also_o secret_o imply_v that_o man_n may_v have_v liberty_n to_o practice_v though_o woman_n may_v not_o now_o then_o if_o the_o people_n have_v liberty_n privilege_n right_o to_o consent_v and_o act_n in_o church_n matter_n yea_o to_o speak_v in_o the_o church_n and_o yet_o woman_n may_v not_o speak_v therein_o how_o can_v this_o stand_v which_o here_o m._n rutherford_n write_v that_o if_o the_o people_n have_v any_o liberty_n this_o liberty_n must_v also_o be_v due_a to_o woman_n if_o the_o apostle_n word_n and_o our_o brother_n own_o doctrine_n in_o the_o place_n cite_v do_v stand_v his_o say_n in_o the_o place_n we_o have_v now_o in_o hand_n can_v stand_v they_o be_v so_o contrary_a one_o to_o another_o three_o say_v he_o what_o privilege_n the_o people_n have_v in_o ordination_n to_o confer_v a_o ministry_n which_o they_o neither_o have_v formal_o nor_o virtual_o i_o know_v not_o answ_n neither_o formal_o nor_o virtual_o then_o hear_v your_o own_o word_n pag._n 7._o i_o deny_v not_o but_o there_o be_v a_o power_n virtual_a not_o formal_a in_o the_o church_n of_o believer_n to_o supply_v the_o want_n of_o ordination_n of_o pastor_n hic_fw-la &_o nunc_fw-la this_o power_n be_v virtual_a not_o formal_a etc._n etc._n whereas_o in_o the_o place_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n the_o virtual_a power_n as_o well_o as_o the_o formal_a be_v deny_v which_o thing_n be_v not_o free_a from_o interfer_v or_o strong_a appearance_n thereof_o our_o word_n be_v not_o just_a the_o same_o which_o m._n rutherford_n set_v down_o a_o privilege_n in_o ordination_n to_o confer_v a_o ministry_n but_o these_o be_v our_o word_n a_o liberty_n exercise_v about_o ordination_n etc._n etc._n and_o who_o know_v not_o but_o there_o may_v be_v a_o liberty_n exercise_v about_o ordination_n or_o any_o other_o ordinance_n by_o way_n of_o consent_n thereto_o or_o desire_v thereof_o etc._n etc._n without_o any_o authoritative_a act_n therein_o and_o if_o this_o liberty_n about_o ordination_n be_v such_o a_o fault_n then_o how_o shall_v he_o be_v justify_v who_o do_v give_v to_o the_o people_n a_o great_a matter_n than_o this_o liberty_n do_v amount_v unto_o even_o a_o power_n to_o do_v that_o which_o shall_v stand_v for_o ordination_n itself_o which_o to_o do_v i_o conceive_v be_v more_o than_o to_o exercise_v some_o liberty_n about_o ordination_n and_o when_o the_o reader_n shall_v have_v consider_v these_o ensue_a word_n of_o m_o rutherford_n then_o let_v he_o be_v judge_n whether_o m._n rutherford_n do_v not_o give_v this_o power_n unto_o the_o people_n in_o some_o case_n as_o a_o rose_n say_v he_o cause_v to_o grow_v in_o winter_n by_o art_n be_v of_o that_o same_o nature_n with_o a_o rise_v produce_v in_o summer_n by_o nature_n though_o the_o manner_n of_o production_n be_v different_a so_o be_v they_o both_o true_a pastor_n those_o who_o have_v no_o call_n but_o the_o people_n election_n and_o those_o who_o have_v ordination_n by_o pastor_n p._n 186._o and_o in_o the_o page_n follow_v he_o give_v two_o reason_n to_o prove_v that_o in_o some_o case_n election_n by_o the_o people_n only_o may_v stand_v for_o ordination_n 1._o because_o god_n be_v not_o necessary_o tie_v to_o succession_n of_o pastor_n 2._o because_o where_o man_n be_v gift_v for_o the_o work_n of_o the_o ministry_n and_o there_o be_v no_o pastor_n to_o be_v have_v the_o give_v of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n be_v a_o sign_n of_o a_o call_n of_o god_n who_o be_v not_o want_v to_o his_o own_o gracious_a intention_n though_o ordinary_a mean_n fail_v now_o if_o the_o people_n without_o pastor_n may_v do_v that_o which_o shall_v stand_v for_o ordination_n and_o if_o their_o election_n do_v make_v a_o minister_n in_o some_o case_n this_o seem_v to_o be_v more_o then_o only_o to_o exercise_v some_o liberty_n about_o ordination_n for_o as_o much_o as_o they_o may_v do_v this_o latter_a and_o possible_o no_o minister_n be_v make_v thereby_o whereas_o in_o the_o other_o case_n a_o man_n be_v make_v a_o true_a pastor_n and_o minister_n as_o well_o as_o by_o ordination_n itself_o marvel_v it_o be_v therefore_o that_o the_o great_a be_v allow_v as_o lawful_a and_o not_o the_o lesser_a that_o some_o liberty_n about_o ordination_n may_v not_o be_v allow_v and_o yet_o that_o can_v be_v allow_v which_o may_v stand_v for_o ordination_n itself_o and_o which_o make_v a_o ministerâ—_n as_o true_o as_o ordination_n do_v chap._n xviii_o of_o mr._n rutherford_n report_n of_o synodical_a proposition_n in_o new-england_n next_o after_o this_o our_o reverend_a author_n fall_v to_o scan_v as_o he_o say_v pag._n 476._o some_o synodical_a proposition_n of_o the_o church_n of_o new_a england_n as_o he_o call_v they_o together_o with_o a_o table_n of_o church_n power_n which_o he_o call_v the_o table_n of_o new_a england_n but_o with_o favour_n of_o soworthy_a a_o man_n he_o do_v great_o mistake_v the_o matter_n for_o neither_o be_v there_o any_o such_o synod_n nor_o synodical_a proposition_n as_o he_o speak_v of_o nor_o any_o such_o table_n of_o new_a england_n as_o he_o mention_v there_o be_v indeed_o at_o cambridge_n in_o the_o year_n 1643._o a_o print_a conference_n of_o some_o of_o the_o elder_n of_o that_o country_n where_o sundry_a point_n of_o church_n judgement_n be_v private_o discourse_v of_o and_o this_o be_v all_o but_o as_o the_o meeting_n be_v not_o any_o synod_n as_o synod_n be_v usual_o understand_v so_o neither_o be_v there_o any_o synodical_a proposition_n there_o agree_v upon_o nor_o any_o table_n of_o proposition_n agree_v upon_o to_o be_v give_v forth_o as_o the_o doctrine_n of_o new_a england_n this_o i_o be_o able_a to_o testify_v have_v be_v present_a at_o that_o meeting_n from_o the_o begin_n thereof_o unto_o the_o end_n and_o sundry_a other_o of_o the_o elder_n of_o these_o church_n can_v testify_v the_o same_o upon_o the_o same_o ground_n and_o know_v full_a well_o the_o truth_n of_o what_o i_o hear_v relate_v i_o will_v not_o spend_v time_n in_o reply_v to_o what_o he_o have_v write_v upon_o so_o manifest_a misinformation_n and_o mistake_v what_o information_n he_o go_v upon_o i_o know_v not_o per_fw-mi adventure_v some_o note_n may_v have_v come_v to_o his_o view_n which_o one_o or_o other_o may_v gather_v at_o that_o conference_n for_o his_o own_o private_a use_n peradventure_o some_o in_o their_o simplicity_n mean_v no_o hurt_n many_o have_v call_v that_o private_a conference_n by_o the_o name_n and_o term_v of_o a_o synoâ—_n and_o m._n rutherford_n may_v thereupon_o adventure_v to_o publish_v in_o print_n as_o here_o we_o see_v but_o however_o they_o mistake_v a_o rose_n sure_o i_o be_o synodical_a proposition_n there_o be_v none_o 〈◊〉_d any_o synod_n at_o all_o not_o new_a england_n table_n and_o therefore_o i_o think_v himself_o and_o other_o may_v do_v well_o and_o wise_o hereafter_o to_o be_v inform_v by_o good_a and_o sufficient_a intelligence_n of_o such_o thing_n as_o they_o publish_v to_o the_o world_n concerâ—ing_v the_o church_n in_o new_a england_n or_o else_o not_o to_o believe_v the_o same_o much_o less_o to_o divulge_v the_o same_o in_o print_n for_o what_o comfort_n can_v it_o be_v to_o any_o christian_n to_o receive_v and_o publish_v to_o the_o world_n against_o a_o man_n neighbour_n special_o against_o whole_a church_n of_o christ_n such_o report_v as_o for_o the_o matter_n contain_v in_o they_o do_v not_o agree_v with_o truth_n chap._n xix_o of_o the_o appeal_v of_o luther_n and_o cranmer_n and_o of_o the_o power_n and_o jurisdiction_n in_o general_a counsel_n deny_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n whether_o therein_o he_o do_v not_o contradict_v himself_o and_o also_o overthrow_v the_o jurisdiction_n of_o classical_a provincial_n and_o national_n assembly_n in_o
the_o affirmative_a be_v as_o good_a as_o in_o that_o other_o case_n in_o which_o our_o brethren_n do_v think_v it_o so_o strong_a viz._n for_o the_o government_n of_o synod_n over_o congregation_n from_o the_o communion_n and_o assistance_n government_n teach_v by_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n to_o other_o society_n and_o our_o reverend_a brother_n grant_v that_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n do_v teach_v the_o one_o as_o well_o as_o the_o other_o unto_o other_o society_n that_o be_v that_o they_o shall_v end_v in_o monarchy_n as_o well_o as_o have_v communion_n in_o government_n our_o answer_n be_v that_o thereupon_o the_o consequence_n will_v be_v as_o strong_a for_o the_o one_o as_o for_o the_o other_o in_o church_n in_o which_o argue_v it_o be_v easy_a to_o perceive_v that_o we_o go_v upon_o the_o ground_n which_o be_v lay_v and_o give_v we_o by_o our_o author_n and_o therefore_o for_o m._n rutherford_n to_o suppress_v this_o ground_n which_o we_o have_v there_o so_o plain_o express_v and_o to_o represent_v and_o set_v down_o our_o argue_v as_o if_o there_o have_v be_v no_o such_o matter_n this_o indeed_o may_v make_v way_n for_o himself_o to_o give_v answer_n to_o we_o with_o ease_n but_o whether_o it_o be_v candid_a and_o fair_a thus_o to_o deal_v i_o leave_v it_o to_o himself_o and_o the_o godly_a wise_a to_o consider_v in_o the_o same_o pag._n 482._o he_o allege_v the_o answer_n pag._n 26._o and_o set_v down_o these_o word_n as_o we_o viz._n the_o grecian_n and_o hebrew_n make_v not_o two_o church_n but_o one_o congregation_n they_o call_v the_o multitude_n of_o the_o disciple_n together_o vers_n 2._o answ_n here_o again_o our_o word_n be_v set_v down_o unperfect_o for_o the_o question_n be_v whether_o those_o grecian_n and_o hebrew_n act._n 6._o be_v two_o several_a congregation_n in_o one_o church_n or_o both_o but_o one_o congregation_n we_o for_o this_o latter_a do_v not_o only_o allege_v that_o one_o particular_a which_o mr._n rutherford_n mention_v that_o the_o apostle_n call_v the_o multitude_n of_o the_o disciple_n together_o vers_n 2._o but_o moreover_o that_o this_o multitude_n must_v look_v out_o seven_o man_n due_o qualify_v who_o they_o may_v appoint_v over_o that_o business_n v_o 3._o and_o that_o the_o say_v please_v this_o whole_a multitude_n and_o that_o they_o thereupon_o choose_v seven_o who_o be_v there_o name_v v._n 5._o and_o set_v they_o before_o the_o apostle_n v_o 6._o who_o lay_v their_o hand_n on_o they_o ibid._n in_o all_o which_o say_v we_o there_o be_v no_o hint_n of_o two_o congregation_n one_o of_o grecian_n and_o another_o of_o hebrew_n but_o all_o the_o business_n of_o choose_v and_o ordain_v these_o deacon_n seem_v to_o be_v transact_v and_o do_v in_o one_o congregation_n for_o when_o the_o text_n say_v that_o the_o apostle_n call_v the_o multitude_n of_o the_o disciple_n unto_o they_o and_o make_v a_o speech_n to_o this_o multitude_n be_v assemble_v and_o the_o whole_a multitude_n do_v hear_v what_o the_o apostle_n speak_v and_o well_o like_v the_o same_o and_o thereupon_o joint_o concur_v in_o one_o act_n of_o choose_v seven_o and_o present_v they_o be_v choose_v before_o the_o apostle_n it_o seem_v to_o i_o more_o rational_a to_o look_v at_o these_o thing_n as_o do_v in_o one_o congregation_n then_o to_o imagine_v there_o be_v two_o one_o of_o grecian_n another_o of_o hebrew_n for_o of_o two_o congregation_n wherein_o this_o choice_n of_o deacon_n shall_v be_v make_v the_o text_n for_o aught_o i_o perceive_v do_v not_o afford_v the_o least_o hint_n but_o let_v we_o hear_v mr._n rutherford_n his_o answer_n that_o the_o chief_a say_v he_o of_o both_o grecian_n and_o hebrew_n be_v contain_v in_o one_o to_o give_v their_o consent_n to_o the_o admission_n of_o the_o deacon_n i_o conceive_v answ_n the_o chief_a be_v not_o so_o much_o as_o once_o mention_v in_o the_o story_n but_o contrary_o the_o text_n express_o mention_v the_o multitude_n vers_fw-la 2._o and_o the_o whole_a multitude_n vers_fw-la 5._o now_o to_o exclude_v the_o multitude_n who_o the_o text_n do_v express_o mention_v and_o to_o attribute_v the_o assemble_v and_o act_v only_o to_o the_o chief_a of_o who_o the_o holy_a ghost_n speak_v not_o one_o word_n this_o to_o say_v no_o more_o seem_v a_o violent_a force_n of_o the_o text_n and_o if_o something_o have_v not_o force_v he_o to_o it_o i_o think_v he_o will_v not_o have_v use_v it_o for_o elsewhere_o viz._n p._n 495_o 496._o he_o allege_v this_o very_a scripture_n and_o that_o three_o several_a time_n within_o the_o space_n of_o a_o dozen_o or_o sixteen_o line_n to_o prove_v that_o the_o people_n yea_o the_o multitude_n be_v to_o have_v the_o choice_n of_o officer_n and_o say_v he_o if_o it_o please_v not_o the_o whole_a multitude_n act._n 6._o vers_fw-la 5._o it_o be_v not_o a_o choice_n and_o in_o pag._n 190._o he_o tell_v we_o that_o the_o multitude_n act._n 6._o be_v direct_v to_o choose_v out_o seven_o man_n as_o be_v best_o acquaint_v with_o they_o and_o that_o according_o they_o do_v look_v out_o seven_o man_n and_o choose_v they_o in_o which_o place_n we_o see_v he_o can_v attribute_v this_o choice_n to_o the_o whole_a multitude_n without_o any_o mention_n of_o the_o chief_a or_o so_o much_o as_o the_o least_o intimation_n of_o the_o action_n to_o be_v perform_v by_o they_o the_o multitude_n be_v exclude_v or_o absent_a yea_o he_o give_v a_o reason_n of_o this_o choice_n which_o will_v reach_v the_o multitude_n and_o not_o the_o chief_a only_o except_o we_o shall_v say_v that_o the_o chief_a only_o be_v acquaint_v with_o these_o seven_o whereas_o in_o the_o place_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n he_o will_v exclude_v the_o multitude_n and_o ascribe_v the_o action_n to_o the_o chief_a only_o but_o that_o all_o the_o thousand_o of_o the_o church_n of_o jerusalem_n be_v here_o as_o in_o one_o ordinary_a congregation_n i_o judge_v unpossible_a answ_n for_o asmuch_o as_o the_o text_n tell_v we_o that_o the_o whole_a multitude_n of_o the_o disciple_n be_v gather_v together_o to_o act_v as_o here_o be_v record_v about_o the_o election_n of_o deacon_n therefore_o we_o judge_v that_o it_o be_v not_o unpossible_a for_o they_o so_o to_o do_v for_o how_o shall_v we_o judge_v the_o thing_n unpossible_a except_o we_o will_v judge_v the_o word_n of_o god_n to_o be_v unpossible_a to_o be_v true_a beside_o how_o many_o soever_o they_o be_v the_o text_n tell_v we_o act._n 2._o 46._o that_o they_o continue_v daily_o with_o one_o accord_n in_o the_o temple_n now_o temple_n we_o know_v there_o be_v none_o but_o one_o and_o therefore_o that_o they_o shall_v all_o assemble_v in_o one_o congregation_n we_o dare_v not_o judge_v a_o matter_n unpossible_a least_o in_o so_o judge_v we_o shall_v seem_v to_o question_v the_o truth_n of_o god_n testimony_n chap._n xxi_o whether_o congregation_n may_v be_v excommunicate_v by_o class_n and_o synod_n by_o virtue_n of_o those_o word_n matt._n 18._o tell_v the_o church_n as_o contain_v a_o rule_n and_o remedy_n for_o all_o offence_n or_o at_o the_o least_o a_o church_n remedy_n for_o the_o officer_n of_o church_n and_o churchmember_v and_o if_o yea_o whether_o it_o will_v not_o follow_v that_o a_o national_a church_n must_v have_v the_o benefit_n of_o this_o remedy_n as_o well_o as_o other_o and_o so_o have_v no_o independency_n of_o jurisdiction_n within_o itself_o but_o be_v subject_n to_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o general_a counsel_n which_o yet_o mr._n rutherford_n do_v deny_v in_o the_o same_o p._n 482._o he_o except_v against_o another_o passage_n in_o the_o answer_n p._n 27_o 28._o where_o he_o set_v down_o these_o as_o our_o word_n viz._n if_o our_o argument_n be_v good_a if_o thy_o brother_n offend_v and_o refuse_v to_o submit_v tell_v the_o church_n because_o christ_n remedy_n must_v be_v as_o large_a as_o the_o disease_n then_o if_o a_o national_a church_n offend_v you_o be_v to_o complain_v to_o a_o high_a church_n above_o a_o national_a church_n and_o because_o offence_n may_v arise_v between_o christian_n and_o indian_n you_o may_v complain_v of_o a_o indian_a to_o the_o church_n and_o then_o he_o subjoin_v his_o answer_n answ_n yet_o again_o our_o word_n be_v so_o imperfect_o relate_v as_o that_o our_o scope_n and_o intent_n do_v not_o sufficient_o appear_v to_o his_o reader_n i_o must_v therefore_o for_o the_o reader_n understanding_n relate_v the_o passage_n according_a to_o the_o true_a and_o plain_a meaning_n thereof_o the_o question_n between_o reverend_a mr._n herle_v and_o we_o be_v this_o whether_o congregation_n must_v depend_v on_o the_o government_n of_o synod_n and_o this_o reason_n be_v bring_v for_o the_o affirmative_a that_o christ_n remedy_n matth._n 18._o tell_v the_o church_n must_v be_v as_o large_a as_o the_o malady_n offence_n if_o therefore_o there_o
make_v good_a what_o our_o brethren_n say_v that_o therefore_o they_o may_v judge_v of_o a_o minister_n fitness_n answ_n that_o which_o we_o say_v in_o this_o answ_n pag._n 51._o there_o must_v be_v some_o ability_n to_o discern_v whether_o man_n be_v qualify_v according_a to_o the_o rule_n afore_o they_o ought_v to_o be_v elect_v and_o choose_v into_o office_n and_o the_o people_n of_o god_n have_v so_o much_o ability_n as_o be_v of_o necessity_n require_v afore_o there_o be_v precede_v unto_o ordination_n wherein_o it_o be_v plain_a that_o our_o argue_v be_v from_o the_o people_n ability_n to_o discern_v of_o man_n fitness_n afore_o they_o be_v elect_v to_o their_o like_a ability_n to_o discern_v of_o their_o fitness_n afore_o they_o be_v ordain_v they_o who_o have_v so_o much_o as_o to_o discern_v who_o be_v fit_a to_o be_v ordain_v but_o the_o people_n of_o god_n may_v have_v the_o former_a ergo_fw-la they_o may_v have_v the_o latter_a now_o what_o say_v mr._n rutherford_n hereunto_o the_o assumption_n he_o deny_v not_o but_o in_o plain_a word_n grant_v it_o say_v they_o may_v as_o christ_n sheep_n joh._n 10._o discern_v christ_n voice_n and_o so_o have_v a_o power_n of_o election_n of_o their_o own_o pastor_n it_o must_v then_o be_v the_o consequence_n that_o must_v be_v deny_v or_o the_o conclusion_n must_v be_v yield_v what_o then_o bring_v he_o to_o overthrow_v the_o consequence_n nothing_o but_o this_o that_o there_o be_v a_o two_o fold_v knowledge_n one_o of_o christian_n not_o deny_v to_o woman_n and_o believe_a child_n who_o can_v lay_v on_o hand_n nor_o ordain_v miâ—isters_n as_o the_o presbytery_n do_v but_o what_o the_o other_o knowledge_n be_v he_o do_v not_o plain_o tell_v except_o any_o thing_n may_v be_v gather_v from_o the_o word_n follow_v where_o he_o say_v but_o for_o try_v of_o minister_n if_o they_o be_v the_o son_n of_o the_o prophet_n apt_a to_o teach_v able_a to_o convince_v the_o subtle_a heretic_n and_o gainsayer_n and_o to_o put_v they_o to_o silence_n there_o must_v be_v in_o a_o constitute_v church_n a_o college_n of_o pastor_n and_o prophet_n to_o try_v the_o prophet_n with_o a_o presbyterial_a cognizance_n answ_n but_o if_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v have_v speak_v to_o the_o point_n he_o shall_v have_v give_v some_o reason_n why_o the_o people_n may_v discern_v a_o man_n fitness_n for_o election_n and_o yet_o not_o discern_v his_o fitness_n for_o ordination_n for_o this_o be_v the_o consequence_n of_o our_o argument_n which_o he_o deny_v but_o in_o all_o that_o be_v here_o say_v about_o a_o two_o fold_v knowledge_n one_o of_o christian_n and_o the_o other_o of_o some_o body_n else_o what_o be_v there_o in_o all_o this_o that_o have_v so_o much_o as_o the_o least_o show_n of_o overthrow_v or_o weaken_v the_o consequence_n suâ—e_o nothing_o at_o all_o that_o i_o can_v find_v for_o as_o for_o that_o which_o be_v intimate_v that_o christian_n have_v not_o so_o much_o knowledge_n as_o to_o try_v minister_n whether_o they_o be_v apt_a to_o teach_v etc._n etc._n this_o make_v nothing_o to_o the_o point_n in_o hand_n that_o they_o can_v discern_v whether_o a_o man_n be_v fit_a to_o be_v elect_v but_o not_o discern_v whether_o he_o be_v fit_a to_o be_v ordain_v but_o if_o it_o have_v any_o strength_n in_o it_o at_o all_o it_o be_v as_o much_o against_o the_o ability_n of_o the_o people_n which_o he_o express_o grant_v as_o against_o that_o which_o he_o will_v deny_v as_o much_o against_o their_o ability_n of_o discern_v his_o fitness_n for_o ordination_n and_o therefore_o how_o this_o shall_v overthrow_v the_o one_o and_o not_o the_o other_o i_o do_v not_o know_v for_o to_o any_o man_n understanding_n it_o make_v no_o more_o against_o the_o one_o then_o against_o the_o other_o but_o either_o against_o both_o which_o he_o will_v not_o grant_v or_o else_o against_o neither_o which_o i_o conceive_v be_v the_o very_a truth_n to_o argue_v in_o this_o sort_n they_o have_v not_o ability_n to_o convince_v 〈◊〉_d heretic_n ergo_fw-la they_o may_v not_o choose_v their_o minister_n this_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v not_o own_o for_o he_o plain_o grant_v they_o may_v choose_v and_o therefore_o how_o can_v this_o argue_v be_v good_a they_o want_v ability_n to_o convince_v heretic_n ergo_fw-la they_o may_v not_o impose_v hand_n in_o ordination_n how_o the_o one_o kind_n of_o reason_v can_v be_v better_o than_o the_o other_o i_o do_v not_o know_v except_o we_o will_v say_v some_o may_v be_v lawful_o elect_v and_o choose_v to_o the_o ministry_n who_o can_v lawful_o be_v ordain_v but_o this_o i_o suppose_v can_v be_v say_v with_o truth_n chap._n xxvi_o whether_o the_o epistle_n to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n wherein_o there_o be_v contain_v rule_n of_o direction_n in_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n do_v prove_v that_o the_o action_n may_v not_o in_o any_o case_n be_v perform_v by_o non-officer_n but_o must_v be_v perform_v only_o by_o presbyter_n and_o whether_o the_o argument_n do_v not_o make_v as_o strong_o for_o the_o appropriate_a of_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n to_o the_o prelate_n as_o to_o the_o presbyter_n and_o do_v not_o as_o well_o exclude_v the_o presbyter_n from_o meddle_v therein_o as_o exclude_v the_o people_n there_o be_v only_o one_o place_n more_o where_o i_o find_v mr._n rutherford_n except_v against_o the_o answer_n and_o that_o be_v in_o his_o pag._n 497._o where_o allege_v the_o answer_n pag._n 59_o which_o i_o conceive_v be_v misprint_v for_o pag._n 49._o he_o set_v down_o these_o word_n as_o we_o viz._n if_o people_n may_v not_o meddle_v with_o ordination_n because_o it_o be_v proper_a to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n this_o may_v prove_v that_o they_o be_v bishop_n who_o do_v ordain_v elder_n there_o alone_o which_o minister_n may_v not_o do_v there_o for_o these_o epistle_n be_v not_o write_v to_o they_o as_o bishop_n alone_o nor_o as_o elder_n alone_o but_o as_o to_o a_o mix_a state_n include_v the_o people_n answ_n the_o order_n of_o the_o dispute_n be_v this_o reverend_a mr._n herle_n argue_v for_o ordination_n of_o officer_n by_o a_o consociate_v eldership_n and_o not_o by_o a_o single_a congregation_n with_o or_o without_o a_o pastor_n bring_v this_o reason_n for_o his_o judgement_n viz._n rule_n of_o direction_n how_o to_o proceed_v in_o ordination_n and_o the_o epistle_n where_o those_o rule_n be_v lay_v down_o be_v not_o write_v to_o the_o church_n or_o congregation_n but_o to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n in_o answer_v whereunto_o we_o speak_v to_o this_o purpose_n that_o if_o this_o be_v a_o sufficient_a reason_n to_o prove_v that_o the_o people_n may_v not_o in_o any_o case_n meddle_v with_o ordination_n then_o by_o as_o good_a reason_n it_o will_v follow_v that_o ordination_n belong_v not_o to_o the_o presbytery_n or_o synod_n but_o only_o to_o one_o man_n as_o the_o prelate_n will_v have_v it_o the_o reason_n we_o give_v be_v because_o timothy_n and_o titus_n be_v each_o of_o they_o but_o only_o one_o man_n and_o we_o there_o further_o say_v that_o we_o do_v approve_v the_o answer_n give_v to_o this_o kind_n of_o reason_v by_o the_o refuter_fw-la of_o dr._n downâ—â—s_n sermon_n at_o lâ—â—beth_n who_o show_v that_o what_o be_v write_v in_o those_o epistle_n be_v not_o only_o write_v for_o timothy_n and_o titus_n but_o for_o other_o minister_n also_o and_o also_o in_o some_o sort_n for_o all_o the_o saint_n and_o that_o therefore_o there_o be_v no_o more_o reason_n to_o appropriate_v those_o rule_n only_o to_o the_o use_n of_o presbytery_n and_o synod_n then_o only_o to_o the_o use_n of_o prelate_n now_o what_o say_v mr._n rutherford_n to_o this_o some_o parcel_n of_o these_o 〈◊〉_d be_v write_v say_v he_o to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n as_o evangeliâ—ts_n something_o be_v be_v write_v to_o they_o as_o christian_n and_o finaditer_n &_o objective_n all_o be_v write_v for_o the_o church_n good_a but_o the_o bulk_n of_o the_o epistle_n be_v write_v to_o they_o as_o elder_n and_o especial_o 1_o tim._n 5._o 22._o 2_o tim._n 2._o 2._o for_o these_o and_o the_o like_a they_o be_v to_o do_v with_o the_o presbytery_n as_o be_v clear_a 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o answ_n this_o scripture_n 1_o tim._n 4._o do_v show_v that_o timothy_n have_v a_o gift_n give_v he_o by_o prophecy_n with_o the_o lay_n on_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n but_o how_o do_v it_o hence_o appear_v that_o not_o only_a timothy_n but_o titus_n also_o be_v to_o dothing_n with_o the_o presbytery_n titus_n be_v not_o at_o all_o mention_v in_o that_o scripture_n and_o as_o for_o timothy_n scripture_n tell_v what_o the_o presbytery_n do_v to_o he_o but_o what_o he_o must_v do_v with_o the_o presbytery_n it_o tell_v we_o nothing_o at_o all_o again_o if_o the_o bulk_n of_o the_o epistle_n be_v write_v to_o they_o as_o elder_n and_o the_o church_n be_v no_o otherwise_o concern_v therein_o but_o only_o finaliter_fw-la and_o objective_o the_o epistle_n be_v write_v for_o their_o good_a then_o what_o shall_v be_v the_o meaning_n and_o reason_n of_o these_o word_n in_o the_o conclusion_n of_o the_o epistle_n to_o titus_n and_o of_o the_o latter_a to_o timothy_n where_o it_o be_v say_v grace_n be_v with_o you_o and_o grace_n be_v with_o you_o all_o do_v it_o not_o plain_o appear_v hereby_o that_o more_o than_o elder_n even_o all_o the_o saint_n in_o those_o place_n be_v write_v unto_o in_o those_o epistle_n three_o if_o there_o be_v rule_n in_o the_o epistle_n that_o do_v belong_v to_o elder_n alone_o yet_o since_o it_o be_v confess_v and_o may_v not_o be_v deny_v that_o other_o thing_n therein_o do_v concern_v all_o christian_n how_o shall_v we_o be_v assure_v that_o such_o passage_n as_o concern_v â—aying_v on_o of_o hand_n be_v of_o the_o former_a sort_n and_o not_o of_o the_o latter_a for_o to_o say_v it_o be_v so_o and_o it_o be_v clear_a we_o think_v do_v not_o clear_v it_o at_o all_o unless_o some_o further_a proof_n be_v add_v last_o if_o all_o this_o be_v grant_v which_o here_o be_v say_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n yet_o for_o aught_o i_o see_v our_o answer_n be_v not_o remove_v thereby_o but_o still_o stand_v fair_a and_o good_a for_o in_o that_o place_n of_o the_o answer_n allege_v we_o say_v two_o thing_n 1._o that_o these_o rule_n about_o ordination_n in_o timothy_n and_o titus_n may_v with_o as_o fair_a a_o colour_n be_v appropriate_v to_o one_o man_n as_o to_z presbytery_n and_o synod_n 2._o that_o the_o epistle_n and_o the_o rule_v therein_o be_v not_o to_o be_v appropriate_v to_o bishop_n alone_o or_o minister_n alone_o but_o be_v indeed_o of_o general_a concernment_n for_o all_o the_o christian_n now_o neither_o of_o these_o two_o be_v discover_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n for_o as_o for_o the_o former_a of_o they_o he_o say_v nothing_o thereto_o at_o all_o and_o the_o latter_a he_o do_v in_o a_o manner_n grant_v not_o only_o by_o say_v that_o all_o here_o be_v write_v for_o the_o church_n good_a but_o also_o by_o say_v that_o something_n be_v write_v to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n as_o christian_n which_o be_v in_o effect_n the_o same_o that_o we_o have_v say_v before_o and_o how_o our_o answer_n can_v be_v disprove_v or_o satisfy_v either_o by_o say_v nothing_o at_o all_o thereto_o or_o by_o say_v the_o same_o that_o we_o have_v say_v before_o i_o leave_v it_o to_o the_o judicious_a reader_n to_o consider_v finis_fw-la