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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A29739	Two conferences between some of those that are called Separatists & Independents, concerning their different tenents one whereof, was appointed with Mr. Burton and a number of his church, and the other with Mr. John Goodwin and some of his church ... / now published by D.B. ...	Brown, David, fl. 1650-1652.; Chidley, Samuel.; Burton, Mr.; Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1650 (1650)	Wing B5016; ESTC R20226	18,640	27

say that in Jerusalem is the place of worship He doth not say a place but the place whereby it appeareth that her question was about the place where men ought to worship whether it was at that Mountain or at Jerusalem for then God bound his publick worship to one place Now Jesus said unto her Woman believe me the houre cometh when ye shall neither in this Mountain nor yet at Jerusalem worship the Father Now Christ by this speech doth not allow them to worship in Idols Temples though in a sence all places are free to do it all places of Gods Creation but places of mens limitation erection and dedication to Idols ought to be pulled down and this by way of application may appeare in the 22. and 23. verses of the same Chapter where Christ dealeth plainly with her saying Ye worship ye know not what we know what we worship for salvation is of Jewes but the houre cometh and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth for the Father seeketh such to worship him As if he should say think not that though the time be that the true worshippers shall not be limitted to worship in a place that therefore this is any justification of you Samaritans who worship in Idols Temples and worship Idols Ye worship you know not what we know saith he what we worship and alleageth this reason for salvation is of the Jewes intimating that salvation was not of the Samaritans who worshipped Idols and in Idols Temples so that if they would have salvation they must turn from such vanities Therefore he would have them to worship the Father in spirit and truth Now the spirit and truth are distinct though all one in purity The spirit is the spirit of God and the truth is the word of God as it is written Thy word is truth now the word of truth doth speak against Idols Temples and therefore we are not to worship God in Idols Temples but in spirit and truth The spirit of God is a pure spirit but Idols and Idols Temples are unclean and diabolicall and contrary to the nature of the spirit the Father seeketh such to worship him that worship him in spirit and truth and therefore if you would be found of him worship not in Idols Temples but in spirit and truth And by all this Scripture here is not the least colour for but rather against Idols Temples Christ never shed his blood to uphold and purge Idols Temples from their diabolicall uncleannesse which uncleanness proceeded not from any institution of God but from the Devill And whereas it is said that the reason why Idols Temples were prohibited under the Law was because God had branded them then Mr. Chidley answered That they made them Idols Temples God branded them and to this day that brand is not taken off them but remaineth still upon them The blood of Christ hath not cleansed them the brand is still upon them as well as upon the Idols themselves to this day Therefore as the Saints are to keep themselves from Idols so are they to keep themselves from worshipping in Idols Temples because the brand is upon them Neither do we say that a place is an Idols Temple because Idolatry is committed there as if a Papist should crosse himself and fall down and worship in his Idolatrous manner in this or in another mans house this doth not make it an Idols Temple but if he build and dedicate and consecrate a place of his own proper goods to an Idole this is now an Idolatrous place and God in the time of the Law commanded Israel to pluck down all the Idolatrous high places but not all the houses therefore the houses may stand when the high places are quite pluckt down Then Mr. Goodwin returned to his former sence of that place in the 4. of John but it was denied that Jesus Christ doth in the least allow or countenance the woman of Samaria or any Samaritan or any Idolater else or any man whatever to worship in Idols Temples Then Mr. Goodwin to back it returned to the first Scripture in 1 Tim. 2. 10. concerning the word every where but it was told him that that was restrained by God himself and that by every where is meant all places of Gods Creation but not of Mans limitation and dedication to an Idol and therefore not the Temple of Samaria as he alleaged from John 4. which saith The houre cometh when ye shall neither at this Mountain nor yet at Jerusalem worship the Father Then said Mr. Goodwin it is very clear from Iohn 4. Christs speech to the woman of Samaria that he came to loose the bands wherewith men were bound to come to worship at the Temple of Jerusalem and in saying neither at this Mountain nor yet at Jerusalem he doth not justifie the worship in the one place more then the other And if by spirit you meane the directions of the spirit its true and by the spirit may be meant the spirit of a man as Paul saith whom I serve in my spirit To which Mr. Chidley answered That Christ came to loose the bands which tyed men to the Temple of Jerusalem is true but it followeth not therefore that he hath left us free to worship in Idols Temples he justified the worship in his own Temple but not in Idols Temples neither doth the saying of Christ import any such thing Christ saith afterwards to the woman ye worship ye know not what as if he should say do not think that I do in the least justifie your practises or your abominable Idols or Idols Temples because I have said neither at this Mountain nor at Jerusalem shall ye worship the Father but I would have you know that ye Samaritans worship ye know not what we Jewes know what we worship for salvation is not of you Samaritans but of the Jewes and Christ sheweth that the Father must be worshipped in spirit and truth now there is not the least word of truth to justifie worshipping in the Idols Temples And concerning the Allegations that by the spirit is to be understood the directions thereof and is meant of a Mans spirit and the truth therein as Paul said God whom I serve in my spirit Mr. Chidley answered I grant that we are to serve God by the directions of his spirit and that is by his holy word which directeth us not to worship in Idols Temples but sheweth that they are sin and to be quite pulled down And though Paul saith he served God in his spirit it may be taken that he served God who was in his spirit for God is said to dwell in the Saints by his spirit and the Saints are exhorted to pray in the Holy Ghost which is the spirit of God who directeth us by his word of truth to which we are left for direction which doth not allow any to worship him in Idols Temples and therefore this place in John 4. 22.

TWO CONFERENCES BETWEEN Some of those that are called Separatists Independents Concerning their different TENENTS ONE Whereof was appointed with Mr. BURTON and a number of his Church and the other with Mr. John Goodwin and some of his Church which was occasioned by a Gentlewoman being a Member thereof whose Husband is one of the Separation with a Letter written to that purpose NOW Published by D. B. for resolution of those who are doubtfull in all or any of the matters here controverted chiefly concerning the High places which are usually called Churches and now of late by the Souldiers Steeple-houses LONDON Printed by John Clowes and are to be sold at the Blew-Anchor in Cornehill 1650. To the impartial Reader THere being a meeting appointed between Mr. Burton with some of his Congregation and some of my judgement in matters of Religion that both they and we might conferre together and the better know the difference of our professions and practises and so indeavour if possible to be of our mind concerning the truth at which meeting we expected accordingly to have had all matters in controversie between us fully and lovingly debated but the issue did not prove as we could have wished Again upon an other occasion of some difference also in certain points of Religion between a Sea Captain and his wife he being one of our Members and she of Mr. John Goodwins a meeting likewise was appointed between him with some of his Church and some of ours at which meeting those matters were discussed at large though many lets as in the former were cast in the way to hinder both the progress and conclusion thereof Now seeing the first of these conferences was above six yeares agoe and the last about one year agoe and both of them written when they were recent in the memory it may thereby appear how unwilling all or any of us though having the better part as we hope have been to divulge them or any of them to publick view But now upon further consideration and weighing the matter more seriously as in aballance I find that in the one scale all the prejudice and discontent which the other party may possibly take without any just cause in that we thus shew here to the world both their parts and ours to be all very light in comparison of the generality of the peoples great ignorance and manifold doubts in the other scale who are still captivated in Babel and both misled and blindfolded not onely by the Clergy in general who succeed their Lords and Masters the Bishops howbeit the Servant be not a-above his Lord but even still for sinister ends by the most smooth and subtle sort of them who make a greater shew of godliness and reformation then the rest such us this Mr. Goodwin is and Mr. Burton was This ignorance and doubting doth consist in divers particulars concerning the sacred worship of God chiefly the high places otherwise called Churches and Steeple-houses here in both conferences controverted although their national Church-worship worshippers Ministry Government and maintenance are there by the scope of all to be observed in which and many other most of the people are also very ignorant and doubtful And considering as on the one side that no man ought to hide his Talent nor be a self-lover but every Christian especially is to dispense whatsoever measure of gift he hath received to the good of others so on the other side what great need there is still as was said both of information and resolution in the aforesaid matters notwithstanding all the floods of books now a dayes concerning other subjects And although Mr. Chidley my yoak-fellow in the first and both for himself and me in the last was somewhat averse to the publishing of the business yet since we are of one mind in the particulars thereof the rest of us have thus brought both Conferences to publick observation chiefly concerning the high-places for though we have often heard that howbeit Rome was not built in one day as the proverb is yet a greater number of Romish houses such as the Monasteries Abbies and Nunries both in Scotland and England were demolished in one day formerly then there have been Crosses pulled down either on Steeples or Streetes in a hundred of these dayes now wherein we live notwithstanding there were both far more letts and fewer pretences of reformation in those dayes then in these Thus having no further occasion here to hinder thee from this good occasion it self I refer thee to take hold thereof and of all things else which may adde to thy knowledge and sanctification as I wish to do my-self whiles there is any time or opportunity yet remaining onely at present I intreat thee that what degree of profit soever thou reapest hereby thou wilt give unto God as the onely true owner the whole praise and as for me his weak instrument in this behalf if I incur no just dispraise I shall rest fully and gladly contented Thine as thou both desirest and endeavourest not to follow any man whosoever further then that Man followeth Christ DAVID BROWN Two Conferences between some of those that are called Separatists and Independents concerning their different Tenents THere being a Conference in London appointed between some of those Christians usually called the Separation and Mr. Burton a Pastor of an Independant Church concerning some differences between them and divers Separatists coming to his house in Fryday-street for that purpose upon the 17. day of the 4. moneth 1645. being the 5. day of the week after Church-exercise and onely three of them having occasion to speak viz. Mr. Brown Mr. Duppa and Mr. Chidley and the said Mr. Brown immediatly after the Conference writing the sum of what he and the said Mr. Burton spake which to this time he hath kept secret and it might be he would have done still were it not that by the intreaty of certain friends and to give them and others some satisfaction concerning the high places of England lately debated again between the said Mr. Chidley and Mr. John Goodwin he hath now divulged the same to publick view together with that other Conference of late which was occasioned by a Member of our Congregation whose wife was a Member of Mr. Goodwins Church and desired to be satisfyed whether her Husband or she was in the truest Church-state The first Question was whether Mr. Burton and his Church were in the order of the Gospel that the Separation might know certainly how to esteem them intitle them and have fellowship with them and whether they were so indeed as they professed to be in word and Mr. Burton answering affirmatively it was in the next place demanded how then did his practise and theirs so much differ both their professions and Covenants seeming to be alike and therefore desiring to have his practice compared with his Covenant or profession or any of them with theirs of the Separation which he absolutely

refused saying he and his Church were a free and Independant body or Corporation and therefore not bound to make account to any other Church or people in the world although never so famous and one of his elders added that the very avaliers or Malignants themselves gave them the Title of Separatists But it being objected to Mr. Burton that he was bound both by precept and example of the immediat Apostles to give a reason of his faith stop the mouthes of gain-sayers yea and approve himself to those that are without far more to those that are within even to be indeed as he professeth himself and the rather in that he is a teacher and guide to others as the first Church of the Gentiles at Antiochia thought it rather an honour then any disparagement to aske resolution of some doubts at the Church of the Jewes who were before them in the faith and order of the Gospel at Jerusalem though some of the Apostles were present at both and the rather we hope you wil do said Mr. Brown because we come to you in love esteeming more of you then hundreds of your breeding I mean at the Universities in regard both of your sufferings and writings far beyond what they have either acted or suffered especially for that publick Sermon you made in the Pillary-Pulpit at Westminster three houres long even resisting unto blood against the evill of the times unto which I was a witnesse and is a motive of my coming to you at this time He answered that his profession and practise were agreeable and that he and his people entered according to the rules prescribed in the Gospel and so walked for ought he knew as many can bear witness and we also may if we wil come and hear him To the which or the like words one of his Elders added that John Baptist sent two of his Disciples to ask our Saviour whether he was the Messias or if they should look for another and our Saviour not answering them directly bids them tell their Master what they heard and saw yea and reckoneth up divers excellent particulars which he onely expressed without either inference or application so his meaning to our apprehension was that if we were not pleased with what they professed or practised concerning the worship of God we might rather come and see and heare and observe their works of conversion and manner of conversation then to reason the matter but we desiring first to conferre some few times to see if we could possibly agree in the truth perceiving their unwillingness by some harsh speeches and carriages did apprehend it would be to small purpose Upon the hearing of these or words to that purpose Mr. Burton said that he had renounced his Ministry and Orders which he had of the Church of England and that he witnessed by his suffering against the Ministry constitution worship Government and high-places of that national Church and that there was no holiness in those places And upon his justifying himself and his people in all things by our Saviours practise and his Apostles it was demanded by Mr. Brown what meaneth then the blearing of those sheep and the lowing of them Oxen daily in our eares if you do and obey all things so well as both Saul the Angell of Laodicea many others spake of themselves what meaneth then I say both your preaching and all your Members hearing in those Parish-Assemblies is it not a halting between two opinions and that ye shew your selves neither to be hot nor could in so doing He answered that our Saviour and his Apostles resorted to the Synagogues of the Jewes and why might not they go as wel to the Parish-Assemblies But saith Mr. Brown you must neither compare the Jewish Church with the English nor yet the Synagogues of the one with the high places of the other but rather the high places of England with those in Judah in that they have both an unlawful dedication and foundation so it appeareth by your practise whatsoever by your words you profess that you are still in Babel absolving the wicked sparing as it were the fatt by your presence and condemning the just in Sion whom ye esteem to be lean by your absence though ye know obedience to be better then sacrifice He and another of his Elders answered that neither did he preach nor they hear in every common Parish-Church but such as they chused above others neither did they hear in those high-places as men were in discharge of their Ministerial function but onely in the exercise of their gifts and not so much for edification as that they might get some matter of accusation against them by hearing them and thereof make some profitable use when they saw a convenient occasion Then it was demanded how he and other Independents could justifie their unequal yoking with those in the Parish-Assemblies whom they judge to be onely of the world and not of the Church as themselves profess to be and though they partake in the word prayer with them in the publick high places yet they are not so thankful as to admit those of the Assemblies to partake with them at their privat administring the seales as if that privat separation at that time or in that place would alter the national Church constitution of them and all the root together in one Whereas they should have no spiritual fellowship at all with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them and witness against them as both Iddo the Prophet did at Bethel and as the Jewes were commanded of God not to go to Bethaven Beersheba Bethel nor Gilgal yea and we find it recorded as a But or Exception even against some of the Kings of Judah for not abolishing those high places whereby not onely evil it self but all the appearances and occasions of evil might be removed so that whatsoever place hath an Idolatrous institution or dedication cannot by any meanes be purged but in altering the form thereof by utter demolition and scarce applying the same to a civil use or to be a common habitation To which was answered that those places might still be well used by Gods people though they have been abused by Heathens and Papists Whereupon occasion was taken by Mr. Brown seeing them so unwilling to confess the truth to clear those two points both of a Church-state and place of meeting expecting a satisfactory answer of them at least for the hearers sake He affirmed that in regard the Temple of Jerusalem was built according to Gods own direction and therefore a holy work alwayes capable to be purged and reduced to the first principle of integrity if ever it should be abused by Idolatry as it was polluted purged and reduced divers times according as the Magistrates and people following their example were disposed to good or evil as upon divine record in the books of the Kings and Chronicles doth appear So the Churches constituted by the immediat

23. by application maketh against them That Scripture saith Mr. Goodwin doth not include by truth the circumstance of place But it doth said Mr. Chidley for the word is truth which witnesseth against the Idols Temples and layeth that brand upon them which the blood of Christ taketh not off And whereas it is called a Circumstance it is more it s a material substance seeing Gods Commands are so directly against Idols Temples I cannot believe said Mr. Goodwin that stones are capable of pollution there 's no place holy now and therefore there is no place unholy or polluted but as all Creatures are cleane so are all places Mr. Chidley replyed why may not stones be capable of pollution as well as a peece of bread which bread and wine consecrated by an Idolatrous Priest is the Table of Devils and the Cup the Cup of Devils as contrariwise the bread and wine given in the Lords Supper is the Table and Cup of the Lord And I desire you Sir to take what hath been spoken into consideration before you depart * take along with you this distinction which I once proposed to divers honest men Mr. Burroughs Mr. Burton M. Sal●marsh M. Knowles and Dr. Holmes and divers others for in pleading about the high places they all unanimously concurr'd that now in the time of the Gospel there is nothing holy nor unholy and this they said was Gospel-liberty that to affirm contrary to this was a taking away of the liberty of the Gospel And they were so enamoured with this point that they repeated it divers times which when I heard I stood up and said whereas it hath bin concluded that there is nothing holy nor unholy and that to affirm there is is to takeaway the liberty of the Gospel I say that now in the time of the Gospel some things are holy even the bread of the Lord and the Cup of the Lord other things are unholy even the table cup of Devils other things are meerly common this Divinity I learned of the Apostle Paul who was not inferiour to the chiefest Apostles who when he speaketh to the Corinthians calleth the bread and wine in the Lords Supper the Table and Cup of the Lord which none were to eat and drink but holy persons That meat and drink which was in the Idols Temples he calleth it the Table and Cup of Devills and there is that which is meerely naturall and common which words of mine they took into consideration and I think Mr. Burroughs had more sight in it then any of them all and so likewise I desire you to take these things into consideration And whereas it is objected that because there is no place holy now that therefore there is no place unholy Sir it will not follow that because there is no material place which is the Temple of the Lord as the Temple of Jerusalem in former time that therefore there is no Idols Temple or Temple of Devills for then by that account because there is no flesh of Beasts now to be offered according to the saying Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not therefore the flesh in the Idols Temple is not uncleane but the Apostle calleth it The Table of Devills as really as he calleth the holy bread and wine the Table and Cup of the Lord Therefore as Sacrifices of Beasts are not now holy yet the meat sacrificed to Idols is the Table of Devills so though there is no Temple holy now yet the Temples dedicated to Idols are the Temples of Idols the Temples of Devills I do believe Sir that there is nothing unclean of itself nor holy of it self but institution whether divine or diabolicall maketh the same otherwise then it was before though it is in a manner common as David said of the shew-bread and so it hath been under the Law and so it is under the Gospel FINIS Mr. John Goodwin Mr. Chidley applying his Speech to the People present † The Originall hath it Tachas Skins whether there be a defect in the common Translation its questionable and it seemeth somwhat doubtfull But that Idols Temples are hated by God is out of doubt * Mr. Goodwin was about to depart now