them and to convent any offender before them and to proceed against him by censure and punishment If the crime layd against him were sufficiently proved and that the people under them were to yeild obedience unto them in the Lord such a power was every Presbytery invested with through all the Apostolicall churches and this Mr Knollys hath acknowledged in divers places in this his Pamphlet in this his very answer concerning Diotrephes as we shall see by and by And all this S. Iohn could not be ignorant of and that in the Church of Ierusalem in which hee was both a Pastor and a Member that the Presbytery ruled there and that all the people made their addresses as well for the good of their soules as for the better rectifying of abuses to the Apostles and Presbyters of that Church and appealed alwayes unto them and never applyed themselves unto the people or the multitude as we may see in these particulars as First when they were pricked in their hearts they applied themselves unto the Apostles for direction saying men and brethren what shall we do Acts 2. they went not to the church or people but to the Apostles knowing that the Ministers were their guides and that they were to be directed by them and that they were bound to obey them And so in the fact of Ananias and Saphira his wife when they had purloyned the goods of the Church for whereas it was ordered and agreed upon by common consent that the price of those possessions that were sold should be layd down at the Apostles feet and that distribution should be made unto every man according as he had need contrary to this order Ananias kept back part of the price Saphira his wife also being privy to it Hereupon the people appeal unto the Apostles in whose hands the government then lay and who had power to censure and punish them as they did for that their delinquency as it is to be seen Acts the 5. they went not to the people and Church but applyed themselves to the Presbytery and of this proceeding Saint John was not ignorant Again when the widdowes were neglected in the daily ministration for the taking away of this abuse they appealed unto the Apostles as we may see in the sixt of the Acts and not unto the Church or people who ordered that businesse and determined the controversie amongst them to which the people assented This also Saint Iohn was not ignorant of And he knew very well that the Presbytery in Ierusalem and all other Churches had power to send any of the Apostles or their other Ministers into any other place to preach or upon any message as we may see it Acts the 8 and Acts 14 15. For the Presbytery of Ierusalem sent Peter and Iohn to the City of Samaria to preach amongst the people there which they could not have done except the Presbitry had had power and authority in their hands over theÌ„ we see also the same in the Church of Antioch where they sent Paul and Barnabas and their ministers to the Presbitry at Ierusalem the Presbitry of Ierusalem they likewise sent their decrees by their Ministers through all Cities and Churches which they could not have done had they not had authority over the Ministers Again S. Iohn knew very well that the power of admitting of members lay not in the peoples hands for we read Acts the 9. When Paul came to Ierusalem and assayed to joyn himself to the Disciples and that they being affraid of him believing not that he was a Disciple St Paul appeals from them to the Presbytery of the Apostles in whose hands the government lay and declaring unto them how matters were they admitted him into fellowship with them without the consent of the people their good liking for the government did not belong unto them All these proceedings Saint Iohn knew very well and therefore could not be ignorant that there was a Court and Councell to appeal to in all Churches Yea Saint Iohn knew also that the Presbytry of Ierusalem had power and authority over any of the Apostles and did upon any occasion convent them before them as we may see in the 11. chap. and 21. where Peter was called before the Presbytery for going in to the Gentiles and was therefore to give an accompt of his actions there which he did all with shews there was there a standing Court and so in the 21. chapter the Presbytry gave Saint Paul an order and direction how to behave himself toward the weak ones which he followed all which shewes that they only had the power in their hands and that there was a court there and that it belonged not to the people all these things I say S. Iohn was not ignorant of therfore knew very well that in that Church also where Diotrephes was a Presbyter there was a Court and Common-councell of Presbyters to appeal unto or else he would never have said If I come I will remember his deeds But why should I spend time in proving that which to any understanding man is as evident a nd clear as almost any other truth in the holy Scripture especially when Mr Knollys hath proved it himself in formall words in many places in this his answer for he confesseth that there was a Presbytery established in every Church and that the government of those Churches was put into the Presbyters hands and that the people were to obey those Presbyters as their guides and in expresse termes page the seventh saith Therefore the Apostle writes to the Church or particular congregation whereof Diotrephes was a Member and an Elder who he knew had power to judge him as well as the Church or particular Congregation of Corinth had power to judge them that were Members therein 1 Cor. 5. 12. 13. And therefore might as warrantably admonish Diotrephes as the Church of Colosse might Archippus Coloss 4. verse 17. in these words He confesseth that Saint Iohn knew that the Church whereof Diotrephes was a Member and Presbyter had power to judg him which doth necessarily infer that there was at that time a court there for judgement and censure and inflicting of punishment is the act of a court or Magistracy and of those that are in authority and armed with power besides for further illustration of his meaning he saith that the church Saint Iohn writ unto had the same power over its Members that the church of Corinth had over its Members Now all men that have read the first and second Eâ—istle of Paul to the Corinthians know very well that there was a court in the church of Corinth with plenary authority from Christ himselfe both to convent and censure and that with the severest punishment those that did publikely scandalize the Gospell as is evident by the excommunication of the incestuous person now if that church that St. Iohn writ unto were equall in power to that of Corinth and that
impossible thing that they should all meet in one place or a few I shall desire the Reader here to consider what Master Knollys and I. S. have replyed by way of answer to all these Arguments I will first set downe Master Knollys his Reply with his Reasons and give my answer to him and then in order come to what I. S. that learned Gentleman hath to gainesay Master Knollys denyes all the Minors of these Arguments as his manner is and gives some slender reasons and makes some sleight evasions and thinkes that enough His words are these pag. 8. As for the world of beleevers mentioned in these arguments drawne from John 12. 19. Behold the world is gone after him that Scripture doth not say they beleeved in him much lesse that there was a world of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem These are Master Knollys formall words and all the ground of his denyall of the minor of all my Arguments yea all that he hath to say against them And it is wonderfull to see how the people are satisfied with such delusions But by this kind of Disputing if it be sufficient for refutation to deny any Arguments grounded upon the holy Scriptures confirmed and corroborated by sound reasons then for ought I know men may not only confute the whole word of God and whatsoever is evidently proved from thence but indeed deny the Christian Religion But that all men may take notice of this mans ignorance and blasphemy for to say the truth he giveth the Spirit of God the lye whiles hee labours to maintaine his erroneous opinion that my answer may be the more satisfactory I will make these two Propositions evidently appeare First that the world here mentioned that went after Christ were such as beleeved in him Secondly that there was a world of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem and that they were inhabitants there both which if I make good then my Arguments will stand for ever immoveable and it will follow that there were more beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem before Christs death converted by himselfe and by his Disciples then could all possibly meet in any one place or congregation or a few besides those that were converted by Iohns Ministry and that this deniall of Mr. Knollys is groundlesse vaine and impious For proofe therefore of my first Proposition viz. that the world here mentioned were beleevers it is manifest by the insuing reasons First from the manner of the Scriptures dialect and that in many places which intimate and prove that to follow Christ with love affection and approbation is to be his Schollers and Disciples and to beleeve in him Matth. the 16. vers 24. Marke the 8. v. 34. Luke the 9. verse 29. If any man saith Christ will come after mee let him deny himselfe and take up his Crosse daily and follow me So that by these testimonies in Scripture language to goe aâ—ter Christ and to follow him in sincerity is to be Christs Scholler and Disciple and to beleeve in him For Châ—ist himselfe hath so taught us in the 12. of Iohn verse 26. whose words are these If any man will serve me let him follow mee and where I am there shall also my servant be if any man serve mee him will my Father honour So that to serve Christ and to follow Christ in Gods dialect is to beleeve in Christ Secondly this is so cleare a truth that the very blind Pharisees those Leaders of the blind did well perceive it and tooke the multitudes following of him in this sense that they beleeved in him which their very expression doth sufficiently declare For say they verse 29. Perceive yee not how you prevaile nothing Behold the world is gone after him out of which words of theirs it is sufficiently evident that they did not understand that like a company of giddy headed people they were gone after him to gaze and looke upon him as upon some novelty but that the multitudes aâ—d world that followed him were such indeed as adhered to him and beleeved in him for otherwise it had not beene a matter worthy of admiration and an Ecce and a behold for no man wonders at an ordinary thing to see a company of people run after an eminent man to view him and looke upon him for there is nothing more common nor of lesse admiration neither would such a spectacle have put them all in feare and upon a consultation how they might destroy him and take him out of the world if they had only thought or beleeved that the world went after him only to take notice of him and so to have gone home againe certainly such an opinion in the Priests Pharisees as this would never have so inraged them against Chrisâ— and have made them all lay their heads together which way to murther him Neither would it ever have extorted such words out of their heads as to say amongst themselves in private and that in a rage and out of indignation and in a serious way when they were in a deliberate consultation behold or perceive you not how the world is gone after him but when these words proceeded from them in private and when they were in a deepe debate and counsell it is manifest that they spake so out of malice envie and from very madnesse which arose from this that they well perceived that they that followed Christ beleeved in him which is yet more confirmed by many places of holy Scripture that might be produced but amongst others those testimonies in the seventh of Iohn where in expresse words it is related that many of the people beleeved on him and said when Christ cometh will hee doe more miracles then these which this man hath done and in the 40. verse many of the people said of a truth this is the Prophet others said this is the Christ and all this was in Ierusalem and vers 48. Have any of the Rulers and Pharisees say they beleeved in him but this people that knoweth not the Law is accursed out of the which place it is now abundantly evident that the world spake of in the 12. chap. were beleevers for here the Rulers and Pharisees make a distribution of the people of Ierusalem divide them into two parties and then they compare them together the one that beleeved in Christ and followed him and were his schollers and the other that professed they were Abrahams children and Moses his disciples yet they were Christs professed enemies and such as declared themselves not to beleeeve in him now here what the Rulers and Pharisees judgement was concerning this busines which was one of the parties who knew very well what they spake and the people of whom they spake and of themselves they spake thus have any of the Rulers and Pharisees beleeved in him but this people that knoweth not the Law is accursed So that being thus compared together the unbeleevers are the Pharisees and Rulers and their
by the rest to make one entire platforme For the Scripture consists of many parts as so many Members in one body one Member cannot say to another I have no need of thee 1 Cor. 12. Againe the Church at Jerusalem if it must be a paterne for all other Churches then in this that all other Churches must be subject to some one Church because Acts 15. things in question were there debated and determined and sent to other Churches to be observed But for as much as that Church at that time in those things was infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost wherewith the Apostles there were inspired in which respect their resolutions were with authority it pleased the Holy Ghost and us that which no particular Church since the Apostles could ever say it followeth that the Church then at Jerusalem remaines not in all things a paterne for other Churches for a paterne must be in all things imitable and perfect Lastly for Appeales so much agitated and pressed I have said enough before and else-where as in my vindication to vindicate the right use of that in point of Church matters And so I passe briefly from your first question to your second which is concerning the manner of gathering of Churches and admitting of Members and Officers I have set downe my Brother Burtons expressions at large that all men may see how fairely I deale with hâ—m â—s for his censure upon all my Arguments that went before by which I proved my first Proposition that they are rather words and tautoligies then arguments by which I toyled my selfe and my Reader I passe it by as neither regarding his pr yses nor sleightings who was never yet constant to the Principles either of Humanity or Religion but like the Camelion hee speaketh of page 3. receives impressions of sundry formes changeable according to the present condition And as it is said of King Henry the eight that hee never spared any man in his rage so it may truly be averred of him that hee never spared any in his fury passion neither living nor dead upon the least conceived displeasure against them no not those hee was most obliged to as all that have beene familiarly acquainted with him and his frothy Pamphlets and language can testifie for he spares not the King himselfe nor Parliament upon all occasions to the one of which notwithstanding hee was not onely obliged in all Loyaltie as a subject but as a speciall servant and to the other if ever any man was ingaged in all the obligations of duty and veneration hee was who is bound unto that great Councell for his Liberty which is the life of life and for his honour and good name which is better then life and yet hee hath spared neither but hath most unchristianly and undutifully and that publickly and privately aspersed them upon all occurrences and therefore if at pleasure hee can vilipend sleight traduce and speake evill of those dignities I may not thinke my selfe agrieved if hee most unbrotherly in his scriblings abuse me Yea I am so farre from being offended at him for this his so dealing with mee as I thinke my selfe honoured by it and account it matter of rejoycing having learned that lesson of my heavenly Master That when men revile me reproach me and speake all manner of evill of me falsely for his names sake that I should rejoyce and be exceeding glad for so they have done by all the Prophets Matth. 5. Luke the 6. and Paul tooke such dealing from the false Teachers of his time for matter of triumph 2 Cor. 12. verse 10. saying I take pleasure in infirmities in reproaches in necessities in persecutions in distresses for Christs sake for when I am weake then am I strong This I apply unto my selfe who have suffered as much from him and those of his party in reproaches in persecutions and in all manner of reviling and blasting language as their daily Pamphlets and words can witnesse as any man now living and for no other cause that I know of but that I maintaine the truth against error and oppose the novelties and groundlesse opinions of the times all the which will the more aggravate their judgement because they did as immoderately prayse me as can be proved before they knew my differing opinion from them as they doe now maliciously and causelesly vituperate mee and the Lord knowes that I am not changed in my opinion in any knowne truth from what I both beleeved and to my power practised above these thirty yeares neither had I any reason to vary from my Principles they being grounded upon the unerring word of truth and therefore for my brother Burtons and his parties sleighting of mee and my indeavours I wave them as meere Grolleries knowing that my bookes have beene read by more judicious men then either himselfe or any of his Fraternity and have had the approbation of learned men at home and abroad And now I come to his Argument for hee hath not so much candour and faire dealing in him as to lay downe my reasons that the Reader might see the grounds of truth but conceals them all and makes a Syllogisme of his owne or else hath borrowed it from some of his American friends and fetcht it out of the new World For I never read the like in either Europian or Asian Writer no nor in any African Author yet that Country was famous for Monsters and usually esteemed to be the Mother and Nursery of prodigious births and yet such a Syllogisme I never saw brought forth by any of that Nation as this of his framing and I am confident that every sucking Sophister will bee ready truly to say of it as hee falsely speakes of those multitudes baptized by Iohn Christs disciples that they were not formed into a Church or Churches the same I say will any but a Novice in the Art of disputation conclude of his Syllogisme that it hath neither forme mood or figure and that I could easily make evident were it not for mispending of precious time and that I desire not to displease the good old Father in discovering his nakednesse and infirmities who if hee were so highly offended with mee because hee conceived I meant him when I spake of a Basket-hilted beard how much would hee be inraged if I should discover his ignorance and make it appeare that hee is a meer stranger in the art of Logick which hee would perswade the world hee were so great a Master in But leaving that I will come the matter in hand which is of publicke concernment and in the first place I must needs blame him for his Sacriledge and unjust dealing who at one time robbs the Church of Christ of such multitudes of believers as were converted and baptized by the Baptist and Christs Disciples and by them added unto the Church of the Iews who were then the only visible Church upon earth and proclaimed by Christ himself Iohn 4. to be the
all occasions sacrifice to your own net by which practice you seek what lies in you to discourage the hearts and weaken the hands of the body of that Army and to cast secret Fire-brands which may break forth into flames of discontent and so cause hot and burning Emulations amongst our valiant and couragious Heroes when they hear and see themselves slighted and quite stripped of the honour and due praises that God hath made them equall shares of We read 1 Sam. 18. 6 7. When the women came forth to meet King Saul with joy and singing answering one another and as they chanted out their notes running division in their songs said Saul hath slain his thousands and David his ten thousands that their ascribing more to David then to Saul made him very wrath and the saying displeased him yea it wrought sad effects yet they did not ascribe all the honour of the victory to David for they allowed Saul his thousands But you deal not so impartially and ingenuously with that Army which God hath now made the Preservative of City and Country c. Certain it is such writings prayers and dividing practices are of a dangerous consequence if not of an Incendiary nature You proceed to double your Charge and in the 26. Page of your book thus expresse your selfe further say you to discover your spirit against those Worthies in the Army you go about to eclipse the glory of that famous victory at Marston-moore for speaking contemptuously of it you say some of the Independents stood to it in the Battell of York when others of them ran away for they ran as well as others and if they be not Lyars all the other Independents had ran away too and left the field if they had known what had happened in the other parts of the Army Then you make what construction your own fantasie frameth and dictates unto you upon those words in my Postscript Page 68. after which you go on in your discourse saying I can produce those that were actors in that Battell and are no Independents that affirme there was no running away at all of those whose valour you so vilifie yea though they did perceive how the matter went with some as when a whole body flies a thing with no great difficulty to be discerned So you Brother I entreat you take a view of what you have said and then consider the incongruity of your relation for can it be properly said that it is a discovering of my spirit against those Worthies in the Army and a seeking to eclipse the glory of that famous Victory at Marston-moor and a speaking contemptuously of it because I say some of the Independents stood to it in the Battell at York when others ran away Let all rationall men judge for surely there cannot be a greater contradiction nor more confusion of language What is it a discovering of my spirit against those Worthies in the Army to say they stood to it in the Battell at Yorke Doth it not rather crown their heads with Lawrell and speak honour to their persons who ever they were that did stand to it in the Battell of either party whether Presbyterians or Independents for as some of both parties did run away yet divine providence so ordered it that God alone might have the glory that some of both parties valiantly stood to it and thus much is in part acknowledged by your selfe when you say you can produce those that were actors in that Battell and are no Independents c. So that by your own confession they were not all Independents no nor the greatest part according to the relation of many who were also actors in that Battell by whom God gave us that famous Victory Then this is out of question I but say you those actors affirme that there was no running away at all of those whose valour you so much vilifie c. Brother judge not rashly but assure your selfe I have more man-hood in me then to vilifie true valour for I professe I do and ever shall honour a Valiant man whosoever he be But is speaking the truth and ascribing to all our Worthies their due honour without respect of persons become a vilifying of Valour with you this is Independent Rhetorick and so deep that every one as yet doth not understand it neither will I here undertake to unfold the meaning and Mystery of it onely give me leave without offence to tell you That if any do affirm there were no Independents that ran away when others stood to it in the Batell at York their affirmation is most false though happily unknown to them so to be now their ignorance herein may convince you of your errour and bring you to the knowledge of this truth viz. that one Wing of an Army may be discomfited and flying yet in the heat of the battle the other Wing being deeply ingaged at that present time may not know how it fareth with them nor see their flight and if a whole Body be worsted as the wind may set and drive the smoak the ingaged party cannot possibly presently discern it Thus it was at that famous battle at Marston-moore as I have been informed by such as were Actors in that Battle both Presbyterians and Independents And that some Independents did then run away as well as others and of them not a few nor all of the meanest rank and quality is a reall truth But if you will not give credit to what I say that you may not hereafter with such great confidence put in Print false informations as you too too often do I refer you to Leiutenant Coll Iohn Lilburne who was there at the beginning of that Battel and for your better satisfaction enquire of him whether some Independents did not run away and also whether I have spoken any thing concerning that Battell but what he himselfe knows and hath reported for a truth as can be proved I could tell you the names of some Independents that did run away those not a few and none of the least esteem amongst you but I forbear unlesse to cleer the truth I am inforced thereunto for I know that upon a discomfiture in the day of battell gallant men valiant and experienced souldiers have sometimes been glad to run And therefore what I there writ in my Post-script was not to vilifie any but to give to every man his due honour which you and others of your Judgement did then and still do most injuriously rob and wholly strip them of who dissent from your opinions and if ever you or any of your party shall so far prevail with the honourable Court of Parliament to question me for those words I doubt not but as formerly I have found Justice so then I shall finde the like and be cleered both by Lords and Commons from the reproach of being an Incendiary Truly brother Burton when I read your lines and see how much you ascribe unto men and how little you speak
part of this last Querie is the same with the former for here you speake as if to slight the Independents were a sure way to obtaine favour and applause from Popish Cavaliers truly you flatter your selfe if you thinke your subtill dealing herein is not seene when as it is so notoriously known that any man who speaks against Independents may be scorned but never applauded by Popish or any that are Cavaliers for they applaud the Independents whom they hold to be more subtill and powerfull to effect the thing they chiefly ayms at and desire then themselves and it is well knowne and can be proved that they will run and goe to doe any Malignant a favour yea they will joyne with the wickedest Cavaliers against a Presbyterian to doe him a mischiefe But having cleared this truth in my Reply to your first Querie I hasten to the other part of this where you start the Question Whether the favour I received were not by my courtly compliance with Papists preferring them before Protestants c. To which I answer that my constant perseverance in holding forth the true Protestant Religion where ever I lived at home and beyond the seas is sufficiently knowne to all the godly faithfull orthodox Christians that inhabited in any of those parts where I have dwelt and so farre have I ever beene from any courtly complying with Papists or preferring them before Protestants as some in England at this day can testifie that when I lived in forraine nations my zeale was so great for the Protestant Religion that with no little hazard I have maintained it for all the while I travailed abroad and continued in Popish Countries which was many yeares it fared with mee as with the Apostle Paul while hee waited at Athens Act. 17. 16 17. my spirit was stirred in me when I saw the Cities and all the Countries wholly given to Idolatry therefore carrying my life in my hand I daily disputed with Papists and those they accounted the devout persons Priests and Iesuits against Popery maintaining the Protestant Religion insomuch as it was only the goodnesse of my God that kept me safe giving them no power to hurt mee further J answer you the Bookes that I have written against Popery in Latine and in English are yet extant and they doe witnesse and will to future generations that the Author of them disputed against and disclaimed Popery and earnestly contented for the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints Iud. vers 3. yea the many disputations I have held with Priests Jesuits and people popishly affected in England not onely while I injoyed my liberty but also when by the Prelaticall popish party J was for maintaining the true Protestant Religion and standing for the peace and welfare of my countrey cast into severall prisons viz. in the Gate-house at Westminster in the Castle of Launceston in Cornewall in the Castle in the Isle of Sylly in the Goale of Leicester in the Goale in the Citie of Yorke in Hemsley-Castle in Yorke-shire Lastly in Knasebrough-Castle in Yorke-shire Yet through Gods supporting grace in none of all these prisons could the cruelty pride and fury of men which in Yorke and Sylly was my daily portion either make me forget my integrity or daunt mee in the least for their rage and power I feared not neither did I ever forbeare to justifie godly Protestants nor decline any opportunity to dispute with Papists but improved it to the uttermost to shew the great idolatry and vanity of their Religion as many who were prisoners with mee in some of the fore-named places can testifie And I am confident that the Popish Cavaliers with whom I have beene a prisoner and others of them that have discoursed and reasoned with me in matters of Religion will give this testimony that they ever found me constant to my principles unmoveable in the Protestant Religion and as farre from complying with Papists or preferring them before Protestants what ever I suffered or under-went as light is from darkenesse in its greatest brightnesse Moreover Brother I would not that you should be ignorant how that I have beene as frequent in disputations writ as much in confutation and at all times and in all companies have appeared as forward and earnest against Papists and have ventured my life to maintaine the Protestant Religion as freely as any Independent I know in England and that in the worst of times yea when those who are now the chiefe independent Rabbies to avoyd suffering for truth would not stand to appeare in her behalfe but went out of the Kingdome and like the parents of the man that was borne blind Joh. 9. 21. Left her to speake for her selfe then J helped to maintaine truths cause and was not afraid nor ashamed to suffer in so good a quarrell but resisted her opposers Papists Prelates Arminians and Formalists in their erroneous Doctrines and Popish practises even unto blood I am become a foole in glorying you have compelled me 2 Cor. 12. 11. for so many reproaches which you have cast upon me and such groundlesse Queries could never have proceeded from any that had not beene guided should I say by a traducing spirit truly that word would come short fully to explaine and set forth the sinfull subtilty of them therefore I will not undertake to set down what spirit it was and what name it will beare I shall onely shew what it was not and leave it to such as are godly wife and experienced Christians to spell out the name thereof Now it is very evident that it was not the spirit of brotherly love that would have silenced yea annihilated such thoughts in the first conception for as brotherly love thinks no evill much lesse dares it devise and publish falshood yet more evill and greater falshood then you have not only thought as it plainely appeares but published against me and that deliberately none could ever have imagined for you render me a scandalous Walker as vile as vile can be and here you question whether I have not complyed with Papists and Popish Cavaliers and preferred them before Protestants Thus with your windie Independent policie you blast my good name raise doubts cloud my sincerity darken and overshadow my faithfull constant perseverance in the truth and wayes of God to make me be thought a man infamous and of no Religion but such dealings are absolutely contrary to brotherly love therefore it is very clear to the understanding of all that you were not guided by that spirit And as your quaeries were made without brotherly love so they seem to be altogether voyd of Christian experience being wholly filled with evill surmises scrued up to their height by the hand of carnall reason and uttered by the tongue of sinfull suspicion For I beseech you consider how it comes to passe that you who have been a Prisoner one of my Quondam Fellow Sufferers when you heare that I being a Prisoner under the command and power of
For first as the Jesuites and Papists separate from all our Assemblies counting themselves the onely Catholicks and all our Congregations Hereticall and all us Heretiques Even so do the Sectaries deal with us they separate from our Churches as prophane societies esteeming themselves the onely Saints and their new Congregations the only Churches in which Christ is set up as King upon his Throne And as the Jesuites and Papists magnifie themselves and their Masters for the onely seraphicall Doctors and in all their writings boast of their eminent learning and slight and contemn all the Protestant writers as nothing so do the Independents and Sectaries highly magnifie themselves and esteem of all the Presbyterians as the off-scouring of the earth making them the sillyest creatures of the world in comparison of themselves as in all their Vindications and forthy Pamphle s dayly appeareth yea they write against them with more then an episcopall pride So that in all these their dealings they are lâ—ke the Jesuites and Papists Again as the Jesuites and Priests amongst the Papists make all the Protestant Ministers with the Presbyterian government odious and hatefull to the people even so do all the Independents and Sectaries incense the people against all our godly Ministers and Presbyters and the Presbyterian Government falsly perswading them that children killed Exod. 1. ver 16. 22. that he might weaken the people of God so the Independents and Sectaries labour to deale with us for if amongst the Presbyterians any masculine spirits come forth with Christian manly courage to discover the evill of their wayes having piety wisdome lâ—arning abilities gifts and parts wherewith they are able to oppose their errors these they indeavour to have supprest and to kill in their good names which is better then life and for the accomplishing of this they have their agents besides their scurrilous reviling pamphlets to ride from City to Country and to go from house to and to cast all the males that knowingly and conscienciously appear of a contrary judgement unto them into the deep rivers of Calumnies laying on their backs such loads of fals defamations as may for ever drown them in their credits and reputations in the torrents of this troublesome world and by this their Egyptian policy they suppose in a short time to weaken the Presbyterians making them by their reproaches unfit for any imployment in Church and State as if they were dead men by which means they bring in their own party and so think to increase and strengthen themselves but those their diabolicall practices with all their Agents God will in his due time fully discover and certainly destroy and down them all in the sea of his indignation they being all contrary unto his holy Word and royall Commands and therefore although they come to us in their gray heads yet they are not in the way of righteousnesse nor in the way of the old Puritans of ENGLAND And tâ—uly if we look into the whole proceedings of the Independents and Sectaries of our times we shall find them most agreeable to all the practices both of the Jesuites and Aegyptians and the Pharisees of old those cruell enemies of God and his people and dear servants for the Pharisees would ever oppose Christ and interrupt him in his Ministery and their weapons they deal with are all carnall as those I have now mentioned and that weapon my brother Burton cometh out against me with viz his Phocions hatchet which I cannot but speak something of before I conclude this my Epistle to the Reader In the seventh Page of his book he hath these words You bring saith he the Scripture for you Come on brother let you and me try it by the dint of this Sword And truly I shall by the helpe of my God make no long work of it You spend about eleven sheets wherein you have woven sundry long threaden arguments to measure out your Dependent Presbytery as holding paralell with the line of Scripture Now you mâ—nst pardon me saith he if I shall assay according to an old Proverb with one stroke of Phocions hatchet to cut in two the long thred of your Alcibiadian fluent and luxuriant Rhetorications Thus he Here my brother Burton seems to desire that he and I may try out the truth of what I have written by the dint of the sword of the Scripture and I say as David did in another sense 1 Sam. 21. 9. There is none like that but he immediately forsakes that weapon and betakes himselfe to Phocions hatchet and that is his Pole-ax Truly I exceedingly pity him who strives to maintain a way that brings him into such a straight that he cannot cut in two the arguments brought against him without a hatchet whereas the Sword of the holy Scripture is sharp enough to cut in two with one stroke any erroneous arguments For the Word of God is quick and powerfull and sharper then any two-edged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of the joynts and marrow and is a discoverer of the thoughts and intents of the heart Heb. 4. 12. But he knowing very well that with the sword of the spirit which is the Word of God Gal. 6. 17. though it be a two-edged sword c. that he could never cut in two with that weapon my arguments the truth and strength of them being drawn out of the Word of God upon which I have grounded all my assertions which is a sure unmoveable and impregnable foundation therefore laying aside the sword of the Scripture he vapours with an unknown hatchet a desperate carnall weapon and to please himself he assays to chop hack and mangle my arguments which he is never able to cut in two with all his strength and strokes Surely none but a bad cause and an unwarrantable way had need to make use of such a weapon Now for the Presbyterians as their way is warrantable being grounded on the holy Scripture the good Word of God the practice of the Apostles and all the Churches constituted by them so the weapons of their warfare are not carnall but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 2 Cor. 10. 4. And for my part I am resolved never to use any other but that heavenly weapon the sharp sword of the spirit for the hewing and pulling down of all the strong holds of the Independents and Sectaries and for the dividing and cutting in two all their erroneous opinions and by the help of my God and through the power of his might and by his assisting grace I shall never doubt but by the dint of that sword ever be able to try it out with my brother Burton and all those of his fraternity and to oppose any adversaries of the truth and to make no long work of it and alwayes to be sufficiently armed to maintain it and all the wayes of God which I have formerly suffered for and still continue to hold forth and
Antitode to it in the same place and for farther answer to your meager and slender detractions take notice that I value not what you or any Adversaries can say concerning my tautologies if handling the same thing often be thought a tautologie with you for this is my resolution that wheresoever and as often as I find an adversary hath a tongue to speake against the truth or a pen to write against it were it an hundred times in the same place or in the same page I will God assisting me answer them upon the place I find them and that instant I will never refer the Reader to what I have said before in any other place concerning that point for I for my part think it a kind of lazinesse to spare any paines in so weighty businesses and things of so high concernment as these are yea I think there is but little zeale in that man that shall hear the truth either often blasphemed or spake against that will not as often stand up in defence of it and contend for it according to command Iud. 3. to his uttermost ability yea it would be a means to perswade unstable men that there were some strength in the Arguments of the enemies or that they are more diligent to sow errors tares then I should be diligent to root them out oppose them if I should not as often reply as they cavil and object therfore for my particular it never troubles me what any of youcan say to me about my tautologies which are not vaine repetitions to any that love often to heare the same truth well confirmed for allthis will but witnesse and declare to all men that I am a carefull man to uphold the truth and to resist gain-sayers besides any man may sooner reade a reply many times then turne to an other place where it was formerly spake of and answered to withall there will in a severall answer to the same objection in an other place be found some variety both for argument and language which many times begets other excellent notions which more and more confirmes men in any truth Besides this hath ever beene Gods owne method which they that are taught of him Iohn 6. ought to imitate often to repeate one and the same Law as what he taught his people in Exodus he often reiterates in the same Booke and not in that only but in Leviticus and Numbers and repeats the whole Law againe in Deuteronomy and that often to the end they might remember it the same may be saidof al the holy Prophets through the whole Bible who often reiterate repeat the same things that the people may not pretend ignorance and this I say is Gods own method and therfore worthy of our imitation yea and Christ himself used this method in his preaching and dictating unto his Apostles by his Holy Spirit who writ foure Evangels of what he hath both done and suffered for us often repeating the same thing yea all the holy Apostles and pen men of holy Writ used the same method as is to be seen through the Acts all their holy Epistles repeating the same things according to their several occasions as when either the same errors sprang up in other places or began to increase where they were so wen and started up yea Paul professeth of himselfe Phil. 3. verse 1. that to him it is not grievous but for them safe to write the same things The same method did Saint Peter use as yee may see in his second Epistle and therefore it is no error in me often to repeate the same things and to inculcate and reinforce the same Arguments especially if it be occasioned by your selves that by this meanes the truth for which I contend may be the more confirmed and errors may be the more confuted and overthrown But withall let mee say thus much unto you by the way that although I am constrained through your vaine tautologies often to handle the same truths yet it is with such variety and in so diverse a way manner and stile as it will not bee grievous or tedious to all those that shall reade it with honest hearts where they will well perceive that what I have answered more briefly in one place I have more fully handled in an other that if it be possible I might give full satisfaction to all docible and ingenuous men that will be satisfyed either with Scripture or reasons Now if in this dispute there be any expressions that may displease any of you you of all men may well excuse them knowing how great your provocations of me have beene especially if you consider that all this contention is for the defence of the truth of God which yee all have sought to corrupt and adulterate with your traditions in whose quarrell and for the maintenance of whose honour it becomes every man to be more zealous and fuller of animosity then for his owne and therefore if I take liberty to speake more freely in shewing the vanity impiety and wickednesse of the Deceivers and Impostors of these times in which we live it is but to use the same method the holy Prophets and blessed Apostles have used against the false teachers of their times who have expressed themselves in language equivalent to whatsoever they shall find in any part of my Booke Yea you your selves if you but looke upon my Brother Burtons Vindication or upon any of his Pamphlets or indeed upon any of your own scriblers in maintenance of your owne vaine errors and novelties or upon Iohn Goodwyn your famous Cretensis or the last Vindication that came out against Reverend Master Edwards you shall find them as full of unsavoury expressions as ever people writ against any men withall writing also with such elated spirits and with so course language as is possible for any men to vent themselves withall they ordinarily beginning and continuing their Pamphlets with pride and ending them with cursing as in that late Vindication appeareth where the Author page the first saith I thought it might not be amisse speaking of learned Master Edwards to spend an houre or two upon this vaine man Here wee find the height of pride insolency and disdaine and in the 30. page he hath these words concerning the same man The Lord rebuke turbulent and violent spirits here he ends with cursing causelessely whereas there is no more turbulent and violent spirits now upon the earth then this of that Author and all those of your fraternity as all their practices and noysome fruitlesse and vilipending scriblings can witnesse who daily write against their Christian Brethren for their zeale to the truth with a greater spirit of pride insolency and elation and with more contempt and disdaine and that out of selfe conceitednesse then ever the Prelates did continually slighting under-valuing and contemning those men they are not worthy for any merit or true learning to be compared with or named the same day they
and the way have lost them both and are now turned Seekers to the dishonour of God and their eternall shame and misery too if they speedily repent not For God in the 30. of Deut. ver 11. saith there This commandement which I command thee this day is not hidden from thee neither is it far of it is not in heaven that thou shouldest say who shall go up for us to heaven and bring it unto us that we may hear it and do it Neither is it beyond the sea that thou shouldst say who shall goe over the sea for us and bring it unto us that we may hear it and do it But the Word is very nigh unto thee in thy mouth and in thy heart that thou mayst do it See saith the Lord I have set before thee this day life and good and death and evill Now if in the dayes of Moses the truth was so near unto them that the Lord says there unto his people that he had set it before their eyes yea that it was in their hearts so that they had then no need to run from land to sea and from sea to land to finde it how much more obvious is it now may every rationall man conclude when it is so gloriously set forth and that through the whole Scripture of the New Testament And how inexcusable will all such be found that complain the truth is not yet clear unto them So that it may be an astonishment to all men to hear any that have read the holy Word of God say that they are yet in the dark the truth doth not appear unto them And yet such men there are who declare unto the world and professe it that they are expectants and seekers and many have often said unto me when I have been in familiar discourse with them That as yet the truth was not made out unto them concerning the Presbyterian way and therefore they could neither communicate with our Assemblies nor yet joyn with those of the new gathered churches Now that all those who have wandred and strayed from the old way and those that are at a losse and seek it may find it and the truth which they have a command from God to buy and purchase and that they may all clearly perceive that they are in the by-path of error that are still Scepticks and doubting about the way I shall at this time endeavor to be their guide nothing doubting but by the grace of God and his speciall assistance if they will bring docible hearts and willing minds to follow the thred of his Word and be directed by that unerring line of the same they may speedily be led and come into the right way and find the truth and with it peace and comfort to their own souls in life and death I will first therefore dissipate and scatter those mists that have been cast before their eyes by which the truth hath been clouded and remove all those stumbling blocks that have been put before them and then I doubt not howsoever it be thought a difficult work yea an unpossible thing but to make the truth evidently appear unto them and bring them into the right way from which some have wandred and strayed and others yet doubt of And I hope so to clear up the light of the truth that the way of it shall not only be plain to them but to every man and woman that have not lost the eye-sight of their reason or have not sacrificed themselves to error and vanity And therefore that the truth concerning the Presbyterian way may the more elucidately appear to every intelligible man I will here briesly state the question which is fully handled in the following discourse and shew What hath been the principall cause of putting so many out of the way and keeping and deterring others from it and withall I will set down the ground and rise of the Independent tenent shew upon what as a foundation they lay the whole Fabrick of this their new Babell which I hope to make evident to be nothing but a meer chimera and phansie in their own brain and that there is not the least warrant for it in the whole book of God And all that I now say I am confident 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to discover to all those whom the god of this world hath not blinded their eyes that they should not see the clear sunshine of the Gospell of Truth Those that call themselves by the name of Independents and have separated themselves from our Congregations and Assemblies counting us such Saints as Job would not set with the doggs of his flocke calling us the sons of Belial proclaming us to be the enemies the Lord Iesus Christ and his Kingdome for this is their language concerning us all those I say pretend that they have both the Word of God and the example of the Primitive Churches especially that of Jerusalem for the maintenance of their Independency and for these their unbrotherly proceedings whose opinion and doctrine is this That the Church of Ierusalem that Mother Church consisted of of no more beleevers at any time then did ordinarily meet altogether in one place and Congregation to partake in all acts of worship and they teach withall that this Church consisting of no more had an absolute soveraignty within it selfe Independent without reference to any other Church and from the which there might be no appeal for the redresse of any conceived wrong and they moreover affirm that the constitution of this conceited forme of government is the true Gospel forme of Church government and is for ever to be a patern to all Churches in all succeeding ages to doe the same and to exercise the same authority within themselves severally that they imagine this Church did though they consist but of twenty or thirty Members apeece yea fewer This is the opinion of all the Independents saving my Brother Burton who in this differeth from all his brethren beleeving yea acknowledging that there were many Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church at Ierusalem by which he hath overthrowne their opinion whiles notwithstanding hee labours with all his might to maintaine it as will appeare in its due place whereas all the other Independents as I said before confidently assert that there were no more Beleevers in that Church at first and last then could all meet in one Congregation to communicate in all the Ordinances Now the Presbyterians on the other side and that upon very good grounds as will in the sequell of this discourse appeare hold and beleeve that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem and that all those severall Congregations made but one Church within its pracincts and were all under one Presbyterie and that the government of this Church consisting of many Congregations combined together under the government of a Colledge of Presbyters is a paterne of government to all Churches in succeeding ages to the â—nd
do they not as they falsly accuse them first prove them to be enemies of Jesus Christ and his Kingdom and not a godly and an honest Presbyterie and then as in duty they are all bound earnestly in the first place seeke to God that he would send faithfull Labourers into his Vineyard and secondly to authority that they would set up an honest and a godly Presbyterie and give unto them full power that they may be as so many Angels to gather out of Christs Kingdom every thing that offends according to the Word of God which all the knowing godly Presbyterians Ministers and people do heartilydesire that so no truly tender consciences may be scandalized this I say were the duty of them all and not to make suppositions needlesse requests to those that have neither power nor authority to doe it But the Independents are so farre from this that they have made it their designe hitherto to hinder the worke of Reformation by raysing up questions continually as being alwayes unsatisfied and by seeking to stirre up the people in their preachings and Pamphlets against the Presbyterians and that meerly to oppose retard and keepe off a setled government in the Church of God saying what haste is there of that and in the meane time they fish in our troubled waters and yet their strongest and most effectuall baits wherewith they allure and catch the poore silly fishes I meane the simple and unstable people is this to tell them that there is not any Church government setled and that as they have waited many years already so they may waite as many more and be as farre off from Discipline and a through Reformation as they now are saying withall if they doe waite to have a Presbyterie set up what if it be not a good one and what if they have not power to gather out of Christs Kingdome every thing that offends affirming that as it is uncomfortable so it is absolutely sinfull to live without the Ordinances which amongst the Saints and none but Beleevers in their Congregations they may injoy Thus whiles the Independents doe labour and endeavour with all their might to oppose the setling of Church government they make the want thereof the most powerfull and prevalent Engine and Argument to draw the people into their way and upon the occasion of these Interrogatories or queries and of these Ifs and An ds of my Brother Burton and his confedertes I shall set downe some of their Independent practises well known to many thousands in this Kingdome besides my selfe by which their ingratitude both to God and men and the restâ—esnesse of these mens spirits will the better appeare to all such as are not blinded with a previous or prejudicated opinion So that all men of discerning spirits by beholding their juglings and unwarrantable proceedings may learne to shun them and to take heed of them and all their by-wayes It is well knowne that in the time of the Prelats power the removall of a very few things would have given great content unto the most scrupulous consciences for I my selfe can speake thus much not only concerning the conscientious Professors here in England but the most rigid Separatists beyond the Seas with many of which I had familiar acquaintance at home and abroad and amongst all that ever I conversed with I never heard them till within these twenty yeares desire any other thing in Reformation but that the Ceremonies might be removed with their Innovations and that Episcopacy might be regulated and their boundlesse power and authority taken from them and that the extravagances of the High Commission Court might be annihilated and made void and that there might through the Kingdom be a preaching Ministery every where set up This was all that the most that I was then acquainted with desired in the Reformation of Church matters Indeed within this sixteene yeares I met with some that desired a more full Reformation and yet if they might have injoyed but that I now mentioned they would have beene very thankfull to God and authority and have sate downe quietly But yet I say the extreamest extent of their desires reached but to the removall of all the Ceremonies and Innovations the taking away of the Service Booke and the putting downe of the High Commission Court which was called the court Christian though it was rather Pagan and the removall of the Hierarchy root and branch and the setting up and establishing of a godly Presbyterie through the Kingdome this was I say all and the uttermost Reformation that was required by the most scrupulous men then living that I knew yea I can speake thus much in the presence of God that Master Robinson of Leiden the Pastor of the Brownist Church there told mee and others who are yet living to witnesse the truth of what I now say that if hee might in England have injoyed but the liberty of his Ministry there with an immunity but from the very Ceremonies and that they had not forced him to a subscription to them and imposed upon him the observation of them that hee had never separated from it or left that Church This I can depose so that all men may see the very dispensing with the ceremonies would then have given great content to the most austere professors how much more may any man suppose would they have sate down satisfied if but the very ceremonies then might have bin removed Surely if the Prelats had not beene infatuated and had they but in those things a little connived and would have abated somewhat of their rigour for ought I know they might have never been questioned but they might have injoyed all their honours and greatnesse and whatsoever they could have desired and that with the good liking of all the people had they I say but dispensed with those needlesse vanities and had they but favoured honest and godly Ministers and set up Lights I meane good Preachers in the darke places and corners of the Kingdome they would have beene beloved and reverenced of all men and no man would have envied their Magnificence yea I am most assured had they but favoured good and godly men the whole Kingdome would have beene their friends and whereas they all at last petitioned against them they would have supplicated in their behalfe that they might still have continued in their authority But through their owne pride and from an ambition of Lording it over their brethren and by their tyrannicall practices and licentious living they have brought confusion upon themselves and beene one of the principall causes of all the miseries and distractions and of all the blood-shed that the three Kingdomes are now involved with and for ought I can discerne our Independent Predicants now treading in their steps and seeking to be the sole and onely men and to set up their new government which is more groundlesse then that of the Prelates if the Lord of his infinite power and goodnesse prevent
not their designe they are in a way to bring a greater confusion upon both Church and State and the three Kingdomes then that which were are all now imbroyled with For I have heard them peremptorily conclude amongst themselves making use of that saying of the Prophet that they shall come to thee and not thou to them intimating by those words that they would never submit themselves to the Presbyterian classicall Government but that all the Presbyters must come in and yeeld to their Independency so that if they persist in this their groundlesse Resolution wee may never promise unto our selves any peace or quiet unlesse they may have what they aspire to and what they desire and for ought I know there will be no end of their demands nor no limits or bounds to their requests and prayers for they looke every day for new Discoveries and expect yet more new Lights saying that all truths are not yet fully revealed and therefore according to those they say they must act and be moved so that by this their doctrine there will never be a period of their Grolleries And all men may well perceive what an endlesse worke they that shall satisfie the Independents will have by their very beginnings for to my knowledge the chiefest of them and those that are now in highest esteeme in that Fraternity and the chiefest men and women amongst them at the beginning of this Parliament desired only the removall of the Ceremonies and all Innovations the removall of the Service Booke the putting downe of the High Commission Court and the taking away of the Hierarchy root and branch and the setting up of the Presbyterian government as it was in other Reformed Churches and especially in that of Scotland and that was all they then desired and there were then none in all the Citie of London that more honoured the Scots to my knowledge then they None that entertained them more nobly and freely which was the honour of our nation and for their owne reputation none that frequented the ministery of the Scots more and that more zealously attended upon it every Lords day whiles they were lodged by London-Stone then they so that I doe not know at this time an Independent in London especially of the principallest of them that were not then great Lovers of the Scots and very desirous of that Church-government here in England that is now amongst them and which they have since covenanted for yea they were the only people that brought in the Scots and yet behold now the vanity and instability of all these men there are not any neither in Citie or Countrey that more maligne them and are now greater enemies to them and the Presbyterian government then these very Independents which makes me thinke that it will be as impossible a worke for the Parliament or any authority to satisfie them as it is impossible for the whole world to satisfie the avarice of a covetous man one story of the which comes now to my mind which I shall at this time relate upon my owne knowledge which somewhat suteth with these times in which we live I being one day some twenty yeares since at a great Festivity in a Doctor of physicks house here in London he in a merry way related unto his guests how poore he came into this Citie professing unto them all that hee was not worth six pounds in the world books and all at his first comming and that being entertained into the Family of one of Queene Elizabeths Doctors of Physick to her person for to teach his children he so pleased the humour of the Doctor that hee let him have the use of his Library and communicated unto him the way of his practice and gave him many excellent receipts and hee remaining with him some five yeares it pleased God to take away the Doctor and his Apothecary taking a very good liking to him perswaded him now to practise physicke in his place wishing him withall to take some convenient house by him promising him that hee would further him what hee could saying moreover that he doubted not but by the prayse and the goodreport hee would give of him to make all those noble personages that were the Doctors Patients to make use of him and hee would do all this upon condition that he would use no other Apothecary but himself to which the Doctor willingly condescended whereupon the Apothecary so bestirred himself that he made good his promise and brought him into the greatest practice of any Phisitian then in London But said he when I first began to practice being very poor I thought with my selfe that if I could with all my pains and industry get but an hundred pounds a year to live upon when I am old or leave to my Family I would never aspire to greater riches and truly said he within the space of one year I got above two thousand pounds and purchased an hundred pounds a year and then I thought with my selfe if I could but make it up two hundred I would rest contented without any farther ambition and I within lesse then one years space made it up two hundred pounds per annum and then I thought if I could but make it up five hundred pound a year I would never desire any more and within a few years said he I made it up five hundred pound a year and then I thought with my selfe if I could now but make it a thousand pound a year I would then be content and within a few years I had my desire And then I thought with my selfe if I could make it up but two thousand pound a year I would never desire any more wealth and before I was fifty years of age I had saith he purchased two thousand pound per annum And then I thought with my selfe if I could make it up but three thousand pound per annum I would then go build Hospitalls and rest abundantly satisfied and truly saith he within a few years I made it up above three thousand pound by the year and by my troth said he I am now as covetous as ever I was This story did I hear that Doctor tell in way of gloriation to many but it may very fitly be applyed to all the Independents who are as boundlesse in their desires as this Doctor was in his covetousnesse Oh said they a few years since were but the Ceremonies removed with the Innovations of the Prelates we would be satisfied and when they were gone if now the service book were but cast out of the Church we would be content and when that was cast out now if the High Commission Court were put down we should then be satisfied and when that was put down then if the Hierarchy were also taken away root and branch then they should be satisfied now when that was gone if we could have but the Presbytery established and that it might be with us as in the other Reformed Churches and especially that of
more evident then yet it hath been viz. That Diotrephes was the primate of the Independents and of all those of the congregationall way But first I will set down Mr Knollys his words at large to take away all occasions of their calumniating tongues who ordinarily use to say That we keep from the world their Arguments that we may the better delude the people and hold them in ignorance His words therefore by way of answer to that Argument are these Now let the reader judge saith he whether the Doctor be not much mistaken in his commentary exposition and application of this place of Scripture And let me give you to understand that Saint Iohn saith verse the 9. I wrote unto the Church But seeing no mention is made of any particular congregation how can the Doctor so confidently affirme that it was his particular congregation Now the reader may see plainly that the Doctor can expound those brethren and their Elders or Presbyters which the Scripture calls a Church to be a particular congregation And what it was which Saint Iohn had written to the Church is not in this Epistle nor in any other Scripture delcared except it was to receive those brethren which he saith ver 8 ought to be received and ver 10 whom Diotrephes would not receive how then doth the Doctor say that Diotrephes assumed that power to himselfe which belonged unto the Colledge and Councell of Presbyters without whose joynt and mutuall agreement and common consent nothing ought to be done or transacted of publike concernment is the receiving of brethren or casting out of brethren a power which belongs to a colledge of Presbyters and neither the one nor the other may be transacted by the Elders and Brethren of a particular congregation unlesse the Court or common-councell of Presbyters conjoyntly consent unto it Let it be also considered that D otrephes opposed the brethren and forbad them that would have received those who Saint John saith vers the 8. we ought to receive yea and cast them out verse 10. of the Church to wit excommunicate them Doth it hereby appear that Diotrephes would have his congregation Independent and have an absolute jurisdiction within it selfe No but Diotrephes would lord it over the Church and have the preeminency above his brethren whether fellow-Elders or fellow Saints Diotrephes loving the primacy amongst them he would be the Primate and Metropolitan of the Church and have the preeminency of all the Presbyters in it and brethren of it The Doctor could have urged this Scripture against the domineering Prelates and why should he marvell that his brethren should now urge it against the Court of Presbyters It is confest that Diotrephes did that which was evill in usurping authority over the Church and those brethren he cast out of the Church But that he was the first that opposed the Presbyterian government or that he did affront a Court or common councell of Presbyters it is more then I know or the Doctor can prove For had Diotrephes done so why was he not convented before them Surely the Apostle Saint Iohn would rather have written to the colledge of Presbyters if there were any such then to the Church or in writing to the Church would tather have sent him a summons to appear at some consistory before the Court and common-councell of Presbyters then to warne them to take heed of hiâ— evill that they did not follow it And doubtlesse St John would have writen thus Diotrephes loves to be a Primate amongst you wherefore when the Presbytry that is to say the Magistracy or Signiory of grave solid learned religious and wise Divines and Ministers come to keep order and meet together in a Court and common-councell I will remember his deeds and informe or complain to the Court and common-councell of Presbyters that he prates against us the Presbyters with malicious words But the Apostle Saint Iohn did not know any Court or Common-councell of Presbyters neither Classicall nor Synodicall to appeal unto Nor can the Doctor make good those appeals he mentioneth page 10 to be according to the Scripture of truth to wit that every particular man as well as any assembly or congregation may have their appeals to the Presbytry of their Precinct hundred or division under whose jurisdictions they were and if they found themselves wronged there that they have appeals to some other higher Presbytry or Councell of Divines for releefe and justice I only aske the Doctor how he can prove those appeals by Scripture and if he could whether that higher Presbytry or councell of Divines especially if they may say the Holy Ghost and wee be not as Independent as these brethren and their churches against whom the Doctor hath written And if so then such a high Presbytry or councell of Divines is not Gods Ordinance by the Doctors own confession and affirmation Therefore the Apostle writes to the Church or particular congregation whereof Diotrephes was a Member and an Elder whom he knew had power to judge him as well as the Church or particular congregation of Corinth had power to judge them that were members therein 1 Cor. 5. 12. 13. and therefore might as warantably admonish Diotrephes as the Church of Colosse might Archipus Coloss 4. 17. And if nothing of publike concernment ought to be done or transacted without the joynt and mutuall accord or agreement and common consent of the Presbytry Iohn the Presbyter would not have transgressed so farr as to take upon himselfe this authority over Diotrephes to tell the Church of his faults and to say he would remember him and sharply reprove him and teach him to prate against the Presbytry with malicious words which belonged unto the Court and common-councell of Presbyters But I shall have a just occasion to say more touching this matter in the answer unto the third question and therefore passing by the objection with his answer mentioned page 19. to the 29. unto its due place I shall desire seriously to consider the Doctors proof of his first proposition which he laboureth first by producing such Scriptures as he conceiveth make for the manifestation of the truth and from thence frames and formeth his arguments Thus Mr Knollys in way of reply speaketh to my argument concerning Diotrephes and of his intention what he will do in the insuing discourse to all the other arguments I have here set down his words at large omitting only the greek and latin texts which he School-boy-like scribleth to little other purpose than to shew his own vanity and to perswade the ignorant people that he is some-body in the Greeke and Latine tongue which kind of learning notwithstanding the most of his fraternity generally despise and contemne I have therefore omitted them especially having learned this lesson from Saint Paul 1 Cor. chap. 13. vers 19. rather to speak five words to the understanding of the people that I might teach others then ten thousand words in an unknown
it I am so well assured that it is Gods Ordinance as I am of any point in Religion But as I said before if men may argue after this way The Presbyters in the Apostles times did miracles and sâ—ake with strange tongues and their Schollers and Disciples did the same doe you likewise and then we will acknowledge you to be true Presbyters otherwise wee will not Thus the Jewes might have argued against all their Prophets as against Isaiah Ieremy Ezekiel c. Moses and Elias fasted forty dayes and forty nights and did many miracles do you so and then we will beleeve you are true Prophets and sent to us of God otherwise we will not beleeve you to be true Prophets Yea all the wicked and ungodly men of these times may argue thus also God gave unto his Church Apostles Evangelists Prophets c. and they spake all strange tongues and divers languages and did many miracles but you and your Congregations have neither Apostles Prophets nor Evangelists nor ye have not the gifts of Tongues nor yee can do no Miracle Ergo you are not the true Church The Primitive Christians and the servants of God in those times had the gifts of Tongues and Prophesie and the holy Ghost came down upon them and they spake by direction from God his infallible truth and Gospell whose speeches were not tyed to time and to one speaker but many spake one after another by Interpreters as it is at large set down in the 1. of the Corinthians chap. 14. vers 27. 28 29 30. c. So that they spake infallible truth by direction from God But you have none in your Congregations so miraculously inspired with sundry languages and divers tongues nor ye do not speake infallible truths by direction from God nor you cannot cure diseases nor do miracles Ergò your religion is not the same Religion nor your Congregations the true Church shew us these miracles and then we will beleeve you to be the true Church otherwise we may not we dare not acknowledge you to be the true Church Again they may argue thus The Apostles and Primitive Pastors and Teachers preached freely and laboured with their own hands and were helpfull to the necessities of others and were not burthensome and exacting from others and spake ex tempore by direction from God but your Ministers in your Congregations do not preach freely nor labour not with their own hands nor are not helpfull to to others necessities but are rather burdensome and exacting from others nor they do no miracles nor speake not immediately by inspiration and ex tempore but by Study and out of their Bookes and are confined to time and speake not in strange tongues and languages one after another by Interpreters Ergò Your Ministers are not Gods Ministers nor your Congregations the true Church nor your people true Christians for you want all those things that the Primitive Christians and the Primitive Churches had There is a Pamphlet lately come out and highly esteemed and prised amongst many full of such consequences as these which if they hold good against the Presbyters they may also for ought I know be of equall validity to overthrow not onely all Christian Congregations but indeed all Christian Religion But briefly to answer We look upon the Apostles and Primitive Presbyters as men miraculously and extraordinarily gifted and as wonder-working men for the confirmation of the truth of the Gospell to all succeeding ages and we consider in them and in the Christians of those times something extraordinary and temporary as their working of miracles and speaking of strange tongues and gifts of healing c. And those we conceive were to continue no longer in the church then for the confirmation of the truth of the Gospel Christ himselfe proclaiming those blessed that believe without seeing of miracles speaking unto Thomas Iohn 20. 29. Because thou hast seen me saith he thou believest blessed are they that have not seen and have believed So that miracles now are not ordinary and we are tied to the written Word But we consider likewise in the Apostles and Primitive Presbyters that that was permanent and to continue in all Ministers and Presbyters in succeeding ages to the end of the world and that was the power of order and preaching and the power of jurisdiction that is of ruling which is not denied by the most learned of the Independents themselves and this I have proved by the Word of God to be transacted over to all Christian Churches whose Presbyters have that power given unto them neither will the Learned Brethren deny it whatsoever the ignorant may do Yea the very name of a Presbytery as I said before if we look through the whole Scripture signifieth a Magistracy or Signiory or Corporation invested with authority of governing and ruling and such a counsell and company of men as upon whom the government under Christ is laid and to be extended so far as their jurisdiction extendeth and as far as by common consent it may make for the good and edification of the church and for the safety of the same And such was the government of all those churches of the New Testament which were as so many Committees their limits and bounds prefixed them as at this dayall Committees through the Kingdom have in their severall Hundreds Rapes Wapentakes and Cities to whom the ordering and government of those places that are under them are committed so that all that is done or transacted must be done by the joynt consent and councell of the whole Committee not any particular man or any two of them severally considered by themselvs can make an order but that order onely is binding which is made by the joynt consent and common agreement of them all or the greatest part of them assembled together Even so all those particular Congregations that are within the compasse and jurisdiction of the severall Presbyteries are to be ordered and governed by the common and joynt councell of the severall Presbyters or the greater part of them For this was the order the Apostles established appointing in every City a Presbytery and when they had so ordered the Churches they set them all to their severall imployments the Presbyters to command and all the people and particular Assemblies and Congregations under them to obey neither is it ever found in the holy Scriptures that the people were joyned with the Presbyters in their Commission So that they that oppose this government resist Gods Ordinance And if we looke into all the Epistles writ by the Apostles to the severall Churches we shall finde in them That they enjoyne all the severall Congregations to yeeld obedience to their Pastors and Rulers over them and signifie unto them that they owe unto them double honour especially such as labour in the Word and Doctrine that is they must yeeld unto them not onely due reverence and subjection and obedience to their councell and just commands in the
The summe of my Arguments is this Where there was an infinitemultitude or a mighty City of beleevers there they could not all meete together in one place or roome or in one congregation to injoy all acts of worship for edification but in the Church of Ierusalem by the very baptisme and preaching of Iohn there was an infinit multitude and a very City of believers ergo they could not all meete together in any one congregation This is the sum of my first Argument The second is this Where there was such an infinite company and multitude of Christians and believers as kept a tyrannicall King in awe and all the Magistrates and Elders in whose hands was all the power and authority and struck such a terror into them all as they durst not exercise their cruelty and tyranny over them though they were their inveterate enemies there of necessity the number of them must be so great as they could not all meet together in one place or congregation to partake in all Acts of worship But in the Church of Jerusalem there was such a company of believers by the very baptisme of Iohn ergo they could not all meete together in any one place or congregation This is the summe of my arguments which I made good out of the Word of God and from sound reason as they that have read my booke with judgement I am confident will acknowledge Now heare how J. S. setteth them downe with his answer to them pag. the 8. and 9. of his booke The Doctors first proposition is saith he that there were many Congregations and severall assemblies in the Church of Jerusalem c. for proofe whereof saith he he bringeth the multitudes of Converts to Iohns Baptisme the people of Jerusalem all of them and all Iudaea c. whereby saith he all became Christians or members of the Christian Church for Iohns baptisme was into Iesus Christ and the very same with that of the Apostles Thus I. S. sets downe my Arguments which I affirme is not candidly done of him for the ignorant Reader cannot see into the strength of my arguments they being delivered in such obscure tearmes and set down also to the halves the whole truth not being specified For not one of ten thousand had ever seene or read my book I dare say not one of an hundred of the Independents had ever vouchsafed so much as to looke into it for I was made so odious unto them by their blasting language as they abhorred my very name with all howsoever they boasted at the first coming of it out that there were twenty pens at worke in answering of it yet not one of them ever appeared till three moneths after it was printed Now all the Copyes that were printed were all gone in one weeke so that the answers coming out so long after and my arguments not being known to the people and being in this obscure manner and in such darke expressions and but to the halves set down every vulgar understanding can never see into the weight and strength of them especially they having not my booke before them And to say the truth all the Independents ordinarily use this method in their pretended answers as first to let the bookes they reply unto be forgotten and after that to blurte out something against them concealing the truth and then they crow out as victors and conquerers that they have beate up our quarters and puld downe the pillars of our discourse as I S. doth vainly in this his Pamplet when it will appeare to all intelligible men that he hath onely cast a squib or two at them and then as a meere fresh water Souldier speedily ran away and left that worke to others as he unaduisedly in the tenth page and in his wise Epistle confesseth sayning indisposition of body when indeede it was his want of wit learning honesty and courage As I haveset downe the sum of my Arguments and compared his expressing of my meaning with it I will also set downe the summe of his answer to them which he giveth in the name of all the Independents saying we answerd to your reason and then set downe his own words in their full length that all men may see my faire dealing with him For I. S. doth not here deny my minor as Master Knollys did or accuse me of false Musters as he vainely and impiously doth in his answer to my second Arguments But plainly denieth that those that were baptized by Iohn Baptist were Christians to whom my brother Burton assenteth page 16. of his book saying that those beleevers that were baptized by Iohn Baptist into Christ to come according to the Papists doctrine were not formed into a Christian Church or Churches as after Christs resurrection Christians were These are my brother Burtons formall words who not only assenteth to I. S. in this his opinion but also bringeth in the authority of the Papists to confirme this their doctrine and so in this the Independents agree with the Papists to overthrow the truth and to maintain their abominable errors And this I conceive was the cause that moved my brother Burton in the ninth page of his booke in the beginning of his answer to say `as for your indefinite enumeration of those multitudes baptized by Iohn the Baptist and Christs Disciples we take no notice of them This is his expression there concerning the which in due place Surely if my brother Burton had thought them Christians he would have demeed them worthy to have been taken notice of but in this he agreeth with I. S. and the Papists Now I will give you the summe of I. S. his Arguments in way of answer by which he denieth that those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist were Christians The first is because saith he they were baptised into Christ that was to dye and not dead therefore in his dialect they were no Christians The second they were not baptized with the holy Ghost and with fire therefore thy were no Chrstians The third they were no more Christians then the Iewes that passed through the red Sea but they were no Christians ergo they also that were baptized by Iohn were no Christians The fourth The baptisme of Iohn was not perfect ergo those that were baptised by him were no Christians The fifth those that were baptized by Iohn did not only hasitate but were scandalized at the true Messiah and under the forme of Iohns baptisme did fight against the true baptisme and baptiser the Lord Jesus ergo they were no Christians Sixthly they that were baptized by Iohn were not cast into a Church mould according to the New testament forme neither were they members of one Christian Church at Jerusalem ergo they were not Christians and this Argument is brought in by way of a corallary This must needs be the scope of his answer or else he sayth nothing to the purpose in denying my Arguments which were not only to prove that those
after Now if Moses did his worke perfectly as he did and baptized those perfectly in the Cloude and in the sea as Paul asserteth 1 Cor. 10. and did all he did in perfection and according to the paterne shewed him in the Mount and according to the will of God and did perfectly consummate his Ministry then Iohn the Baptist also did the like for Christ saith that amongst those that are borne of women there is not a greater Prophet then Iohn the Baptist that is there was not one more faithfull and that did his worke more compleatly and with more perfection which Christs owne words in the third of Matthew do yet more fully declare vers 15. saying suffer it to be so now for thus it becommeth us to fulfill all righteousnesse Now if the Baptist did fulfill all righteousnesse in his Ministry then he did it compleatly and made those that were baptized by him perfect compleat and consummated Christians for he in his Office fulfilled all righteousnesse if therefore there were any imperfection as I. S. saith in the Baptisme and Ministry of Iohn then he did not fulfill all righteousnesse and then Christs words should not be true which is a high point of blasphemy to thinke much more to say and print as I. S. doth for he that fulfills all righteousnesse in his Office doth it perfectly and compleatly but Iohn did so ergo all those that he baptized were compleat Christians I demand therefore of I. S. my brother Burton and of all the Independents whether Christ was well baptized or no by Iohn the Baptist I presum they will not deny but that he was perfectly baptized And if Christ himselfe was well baptized then all that were baptized by John were also well baptized and were perfect and compleat Christians for John was sent of God to baptize and he obeyed Gods command in this his Ministry and in that also fulfilled all righteousnesse and therefore all those that were baptized by Iohn by the Apostles before Christs death and ascension were as perfect Christians as any that were baptized after Christs resurrection and if they were not well baptized then Christ was not well baptized which were high impiety to affirme neither will I ever be induced to beleeve that Iohn Baptist did not know as well how to make compleat Christians as I. S. or as any of the Independent Ministers for I know Iohn was sent of God for this worke and that he fulfilled all righteousnesse in it and I know also that he was faithfull in his Ministry to the death and feared not the face of Herod nor of any Mortall creature for all this the Scripture ascertanieth unto me but that our Independent Ministers were ever sent of God and bid to set up their new lights and to preach up their congregationall way or a toleration of all Religions I doubt it For first I know that they ranne back-ward and forward to and fro before they were ever sent and that they preach that they were never commanded from God and that when they should have preached andstood to witnes the truth many of them ran away and deserted it and did not stand to it as Iohn Baptist did but like those hirelings Christ speaks of Iohn the tenth when they saw the Wolfe comming cowardly ranne away and left their poore flocks to the fury of those beasts and many of them now have left their flocks in the wildernesse and have deserted their charges contrary to the command of God Acts 20. vers 28. who saith by the Apostle Take heede therefore unto your selves and to all the flocke over which the holy Ghost hath made you Bishops to feeds the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own bloud In all these respects and many more that I could name I greatly doubt whether the Independent Ministers were ever sent of God but for Iohn I know he was and I know in like manner that he fulfilled all righteousnesse in his Ministery and made those he Baptized perfect Christian I know likewise that he made innumerable multitudes of them and that Jerusalem came out and was Baptized also which when I. S. denyeth I assert he is a wicked and blasphemous fellow and that if he had his due deserts he ought to be spued not only out of their seven new churches here in London but out of all their severall new fangled congregations through the Kingdome as an Alien and stranger from the common-wealth of all learning and goodnesse And this shall suffice to have spoke to the fourth learned answer I now come to the fifth as good as the rest his words are these So farre was it saith he that all that were Baptized by Iohn were made Christians that even Iohns owne Disciples who had the best and frequentest instruction not onely hesitated but were right downe scandalized at the true Messias Iohn 3. ver 26. and others did under the forme of Iohns baptisme fight against the true baptisme and baptizer the Lord Iesus So that I conceive saith he this Argument were it granted that all the people received Iohns baptisme will stand in little steade to prove the conclusion viz that they were made Christians much lesse cast into a Church mould according to the New Testament forme and least of all that they were all members of one Christian Church at Ierusalem These are his formall expressions by which he laboureth to prove that those that were baptized by Iohn the Baptist were no Christians in these his words there is a double Argument by which he indeavours to unchristian all those that were Baptised by the Baptist The first is because as he falsly supposeth they were enimies of Christ The second is in that they were not rightly moulded So that in this his last Paragraffe or Section we have two Arguments together Which being added to the former make up six in all by which the profound disputant J. S. unchurches and unchristiâ—ns all those that were baptised by John Now because I. S. and his complices do place so much strength in these two last Arguments I shall desire the reader the more seriously to weigh and consider them with the conclusions deduced from them by I. S. and my reply to them First whereas hee denieth that all that were baptized by Iohn were made Christians as it is a begging of the question so in his thus speaking hee overthrows the whole Ministry of Iohn the Baptist and contradicts the Holy Scriptures and all those places I quoted out of them in my former reply and which is more hee contradicteth himselfe for hee confesseth that Iohn Baptized in to Christ and he baptized none as all the Independents acknowledge but beleevers therefore they were Christians by his owne confession and yet here as often formerly he denieth they were Christians But because I have spoke of this before I will now come to his reasons His first reason to prove they were not Christians is because saith he Iohns
owne Disciples who had the best and frequentest instruction not only hesitated that is doubted but were right downe scandalized at the Messiah The second is because others did under the forme of Iohns Baptisme fight against the true baptisme and the Baptizer the Lord Iesus These his reasons I affirme are nothing else but a meer calumny and a false accusation and to speake the truth are but his owne wicked and groundlesse surmises and if every man from his owne fictious and fond conceits and supposed premises may take the liberty thus to vent himselfe I know no truth in the whole word of God but may be called in question yea overthrown and I know no Christians nor Saints but may at any time be unsainted and unchristianed Our Saviour Christ in the 7. of Luke vers 32 33 34. compareth those of his time unto little children sitting in the market place and calling one to another and saying wee have piped unto you and you have not danced wee have mourned unto you and ye have not wept for Iohn the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine and ye say he hath a Devill The Sonne of man is come eating and drinking and ye say behold a gluttonous man and a wine Bibber afriend of Publicans and Sinners But wisedome is justified of all her children By which words of our Saviour wee see nothing could please the Gentlemen of his time Now if ever there were an age in the world or company of men in it that might be compared to these little children then this of ours and the people in it especially the Independents may be who are pleased with nothing and can least of all indure any Vniformity in the Church against which they professedly both write and preach and as those in our Saviours dayes did speake against the Ministry of Iohn the Baptist and against Christ himself so at this very day amongst us there are many that make nothing of the Ministry of Iohn professing they take no notice of those that were baptized by him or Christs disciples and I. S. peremptorily affirmeth that those that were baptized by him were no Christians and that his Ministry was imperfect and therefore I conceive all men will judge that the Independents may well be compared to those of Christs time who unchurch all but themselves But saith I. S. they were Iohns owne Disciples that both doubted and hesitated and were right downe scandalized at the true Messias and for proofe of this his saying hee produceth the 3. of Iohn vers 26. I will therefore set downe the words of the text with the forgoing verse which will give some light to the busines in hand verse 25. Then there arose saith the Evangelist a question betweene some of Iohns disciples and the Iewes about purifying and they came unto Iohn and said unto him Rabbi hee that was with thee beyond Iordan to whom thou barest witnesse behold the same baptizeth and all men come to him These are the words out of which I. S. grounds all his accusation against Iohns Disciples by which hee would prove them no Christians But if men would but duly weigh and examine the text they will easily perceive there is not so much as a very similitude of the illation and consequence I. S. inferres from thence For first the question there started was not betweene Iohns Disciples and Christs but betweene the Disciples of Iohn and the Jewes that is betweene the Scribes and Pharisees and Iohns Disciples who were enemies of Iohn the Baptist as well as of Christ and therefore questioned all they did ever and anon asking Iohn and Christ by what authority they preached and did those things they did And so here the Jewes they questioned with Iohns Disciples concerning his Ministry as by all conjecture it may be gathered about legall purifications of which they were very studious and great observers to which the Pharisees had added many of their ovvne as wee may see Matth the 15. and Marke the 7. and therefore they contended with Iohns Disciples about purifying supposing that there was no need of Iohns baptisme and washing seeing they had so much rinsing and purifying already amongst them So that it seemes the contention betweene the Jewes and Iohns Disciples arose upon this that Iohns Disciples much magnified the Baptisme of their Master and the Jewes and Pharisees they extolled as much their Purifications thinking them necessary to salvation which error of the Jewes notwithstanding had often by the Prophets beene confuted as in Isa 1. and many other places Now Iohn that hee might revoke all men from this error that they should not rest in corporall vvashings and in outvvard performances exhorts them to looke unto Christ vvho vvas the truth of which all those ceremonies were but the shadowes and were all fulfilled in him and therefore that they should by faith wholy rely upon him for salvation as the sequell of the chapter doth sufficiently shew Now in the heate of this dispute the Evangelist relateth in the 26. verse that they came unto Iohn and said unto him Rabbi hee that was with thee beyond Jordan to whom thou bearest witnesse behold the same baptizeth and all men come to him Out of which words I see no reason why I. S. should gather that Iohns Disciples not only hesitated but were right downe scandalized at the true Messias but I see very good ground why the contrary may be concluded if they were Iohns Disciples and that they dearely esteemed Christ and much honoured him rather then that they vvere offended with him But first it is not said that Iohns Disciples came unto him onely it is related that some came unto Iohn they came unto him saith the Scripture which they it is not specified for Iohns Disciples and the Jewes contended and the Jewes are put in the last place so that it may be gathered that they were the Jewes rather then Iohns Disciples that came unto him as being last spoken of mentioned and if they were the Jewes then they vvere the knovvn and profest enemies both of Iohn and of Christ and therefore were none of Iohns Disoiples as I. S. fondly perswadeth himself for they were continuall enemies and adversaries to them both so that if they came unto Iohn they came unto him by way of complaint and as being scandalized then they were not Iohns followers and schollers for they were better taught then to be scandalized at Christ But should I grant unto I. S. for disputation sake that they were Iohns owne Disciples which yet cannot clearly be proved It doth not follow from those words that they either doubted or were scandalized at the true Messiah as I. S. vainly and impiously concludes For if any should hear some one of the Independent ministers greatly magnifie one of his brethren and fellow ministers as to be a man sent from heaven and should say of him That he was the rarest preacher one of them in the
of beleevers in the Church of Jerusalem and they were inhabitants there For the place where these Scribes and high Priests were and where Christ then was and where all those people were was in Ierusalem and all the people well known to the Rulers and Pharisees to be Inhabitants there So that all men now may see the futility and vanity of Mr Knollys his denyall of my arguments and may also behold the force and power of truth which asserteth That there were more beleevers in Jerusalem then could all meet in any one place and that in Christs time unlesse a world of beleevers and those inhabitants can meet together in any one place or congregation to injoy all acts of worship to edification which is a grollery yea madnesse to suppose or think And this shal serve for answer to what Mr Knollys out of his impious ignorance had to reply against my arguments for the enervating of them And now I come to I. S. his answer to all my foregoing arguments by which he would perswade the poor ignorant people That there was not such a number of Beleevers in Ierusalem but that they might all meet in one place For this must necessarily be the scope of his discourse or else it is nothing to the purpose or against my arguments which were to prove There were more beleevers in Jerusalem and that in Christs time then could possibly meet together in any one Congregation to partake in all Ordinances The reader may remember that in his former reply he seemed not to doubt concerning the number of those that were baptized onely he denyed that those that were baptized by Iohn were Christians and that they were cast into a Church mould after the New Testament forme much lesse that they were members of one Christian Church at Jerusalem these are his own words and by this hee thought to overthrow that argument Now here he useth another method tacitly denying the Minor of all my Syllogismes and the reason of his denyall is because as he speaketh I made false musters he thinks me it seemes like the Independents who would perswade the simple that all are Independent and amongst other things he saith that I gave the Independents occasion shrewdly to suspect my ignorance But I will set down his whole babble at larg and in his owne termes and words and his full answer to all my last arguments as it is page 9 10. of his Pamphlet His words are these But note saith he an absurdity in the sequell of the discourse where the Doctor having got a multiplying glasse in his hand goes on to make strange discoveryes of the increase of Christian believers pag. 36. he tells us that Christ made many more Disciples and Beleevers then John and added dayly unto the Church that was then in Ierusalem such as should be saved Here 's two Paradoxes First that Christ made more Disciples then John Out of whom should hee make them when as Iohn had swept all along with him as you affirme before page 32. and not taking it Synecdochically what ever you determine of it here Secondly that Christ should adde dayly to the Church that was in Ierusalem is not this a marvellous anticipation and mistake to apply that which was done by the Disciples after Christs ascension Acts 2. last unto the ministry of Christ himselfe and yet in the sequell you reckon this to the Apostles also expresly page 56. Judge if here be not false musters And let me tell you you give us occasion shrewdly to suspect your ignorance to say no worse to talke of a Church in Jerusalem besides the nationall church of the Jewes in the life time of our Saviour Thus hee If I should discover all the errors that are in this reply I might make a very large volume but in regard that all learned men will easily perceive the vanity childishnesse and horrid impiety of the man in the very reading of it I shall not be so larg in my answer as otherwise I had thought to have been and yet before I come to it I cannot but complain of the dishonesty of the man that thus curtaileth my arguments every where not plainly setting them down that the people may see my reasons but this is the ordinary way of his disputing who conceales the truth from the ignorant and simple that he may the better poyson them with his errors and noveltyes After the very same manner dealeth my brother Burton with me as we shall see in its due place who passing by all my arguments not so much as mentioning any one of them makes a rombobombo Syllogisme of his own which as I suppose he fetcht out of the howling wildernesse of America and then with Phocions hatchet that carnall weapon he fights with his own shaddow and vapors like a conquerour as I. S. doth here But now for answer briefly I affirme that I. S. in confuting of my arguments by which I proved that there were more converted by Christ and his Disciples and the Apostles Ministry in Jerusalem then by Iohn the Baptist and therefore that they could not all meete in one place or Congregation to injoy all Acts of worship I say in his confuting of my arguments he doth not so much dispute against me as he doth against Saint Iohn the Evangelist and the very Scripture for the discoveries I made by my multiplying glasse as he ridiculously speaketh of the increase of Christian believers were no false musters as he childishly scibleth for I discovered only and declare unto all men that increase of Christian believers in Ierusalem that the holy Word of God asserteth Iohn the 4. where it is recorded vers 1. 2. That Christ made more Disciples and believers then Iohn and therefore added daily to the Church that was then in Jesusalem such as should be saved for Christ came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel Now the making of more Disciples is the adding of more to the church and this the Scripture holdeth out not only to me but to all intelligible Christians and therefore it was no error in me to affirme the same So that whiles I. S. laboureth to confute my Arguments he fights indeede against the Evangelist that affirmeth that Christ made mo Disciples then Iohn But sayeth he here are two Paradoxes First that Christ made mo Disciples then Iohn The second that Christ should adde dayly to the Church that was then in Ierusalem These in I. S. his opinion are paradoxes that is matters of Ludibry in his dialect Yet both these truthes I spake of are cleere out of the Word of God and therefore whiles he wounds me he vulnerateth Saint Iohn and blasphemeth for he giveth the Spirit of God the lye and denyeth the Scripture that asserts that Christ made mo Disciples then John and therefore added more unto the church for of unbelievers and of enemies they were made Disciples Christians and friends and therefore taken out of the world and
I am most confident will by and by evidently appeare though all the former Arguments to the contrary should not so much as be thought of and withall it will also be obvious to any judicious man that in all respects their Argument makes much against themselves For if I should grant unto them That at this instant of time that that place speakes of the whole Church in Jerusalem or the number then of Beleevers were no more but that one place might have contained them all for the enjoying of all Ordinances which I cannot doe for innumerable reasons and some of them above specified yet it doth not follow nor evince that after there were daily such additions of Believers and such multitudes of new Converts added unto the Church that then also one place or roome could containe them all and that they might still meet in one Congregation and all together partake in all acts of worship For there is a vast difference betweene one hundred and twenty names for there was no more in this assembly and in many ten thousands which all the World knowes could not bee contained in any one place of Jerusalem to communicate in all the Ordinances though that place had equalized the most magnificent Structure that ever the World yet saw especially they could not have all met there to edification for they could not have all heard and understood and wee know that in the Church all must be done to edification and this would rather have hindred the mutuall edification of the assembly and have brought a confusion rather then any profit or benefit unto them But the truth is the number of names here spoken of if wee will goe to the genuine interpretation of the place not to speake of the universall consent of all the learned Interpreters who gather that in this assembly the seventy Disciples the Lord Jesus sent out to preach through all Judes and all those other Ministers of the Gospel that had beene Christs and Saint Iohn the Baptists Disciples every one of the which was thought fit for learning and divine knowledge to succeed Iudas in his Apostleship and to be a Disciple all these or most of them or such like were those that are included in the number of names I say to omit this Interpretation of all the most Orthodoxe Divines and their universall agreement and harmony in their learned Commentaries about this portion of Scripture the very words themselves following shew they were select and eminent men and men of note and Disciples of longest standing and all of them or the most of them Ministers and Preachers themselves and were indeed the Presbyters of the Church to whom with the Apostles the power of ruling was committed and who within themselves and without the consent of the common multitude of Beleivers had power to oâ—daine their own Officers and that by their own authority as we may see Vers 21. 22. Wherefore saith S. Peter of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Iesus went in and out among us beginning from the baptisme of Iohn unto that same day he was taken up from us must one be ordained to be a witnesse with us of the resurrection And they appointed two c. and they prayed c. and they gave forth the Lots c. all businesses here were managed and carryed in an Aristocraticall and Presbyterian way and all was done by a joynt consent and the common councell of them all Here wee finde none of the multitude of the people though Beleevers here were no Women that gave forth their lots Neither doth the Apostle Peter say Men Mothers and Brethren or Men Women and Brethren or Men Brethren and Sisters but Men and Brethren For howsoever in the foregoing Verses it is said that these meaning the Apostles and Elders all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus and with his Brethren by which they fitted themselves for the Ministery after they should receive the Holy Ghost though I say they joyned with them in those duties of humiliation and prayer which any women may do in the society and company of godly Ministers yet when they went about other acts of Church government as choosing of an Apostle then the Apostles and Elders onely by themselves to whom the power of the Keyes was given ordered that businesse and left the Women to their private devotions and their severall imployments for in this action of giving forth their lots there is no mention of the Women And it is manifest from the Text it selfe that this choosing of Matthias was at another time and without all doubt upon a set day for this purpose for it is said Verse 15. And in those dayes Peter stood up in the middest of the Disciples and said Men and Brethren Here was onely Disciples Men and Brethren and no Sisters Till Pope Joans time and our dayes Peters Keyes never hung at any womans Girdle and we heare not in Scripture that they had any voyce in choosing of Church officers and admi ting of members into the Church or casting out of any till these unhappy times an usurpation not beseeming that Sex as afterwards in its due place I hope to make appear But this by the way Now to the matter in hand I say it is apparent to any that will not shut their eyes that all those or most of them that were in Peters company and at that time met together were capable of an Apostleship and such as were the most eminent of all Christs followers and such as were best instructed in Christian Religion as having been bred up in the doctrine of Saint Iohn the Baptist and under the Ministry of Christ himselfe the Prophet of his Church and therefore they were the Teachers of the Church and people who were their flock which they all fed in common And from thence it argueth That the multitude of Beleevers in Ierusalem was not onely a distinct company from them but that it was exceeding great and numerous that had so many Pastors and Teachers over them For if they had been but so small a company as is here mentioned and that the whole Church had consisted but of sixscore names then the Pastors exceed the number of the flocke which is not onely absurd to thinke but against the evident truth of the holy Scriptures which relate unto us multitudes upon multitudes that were dayly converted by the ministery of John the Baptist and of Christ and his Apostles and added unto the Church before this their meeting So that by this I have now said it is most clear and evident that all or most of these were the most eminent Ministers of the Gospell and the Presbytery of the Church But in this that our Brethren do acknowledge That this assembly here spake of were the church it makes as much against them and greatly for us for it is manifest from the Text
now living in these dayes of light and knowledge that should be either so ignorant or erroneous as to gainsay it and yet learned Master Knollys in his moderate answer as he calleth it pag. 8. and 9. replyeth and answereth to it by denying the Minor of my Syllogisme for very slender reasons as his custome is after this manner I will give you his owne words which are these There is no mention saith he in any Scripture quoted by the Doctor of eight thousand new Converts besides women and children Neither doth that Scripture produced Acts 4. 4. prove any such thing For the Reader may consider that the number of them there mentioned are but five thousand and albeit the Dr. make them up eight thousand by saying those five thousand men were added to the Church and joyned to the former beleevers pag. 57. Yet there is a two-fold mistake in the Doctors addition to wit first that some of the three thousand may be were women how then can the Doctor say there were eight thousand new Converts besides women secondly these five thousand are only called men and not Converts not beleevers For howbeit many of them hearing the word beleeved yet it is not said the five thousand men beleeved and the truth iâ— the text well considered only holds forth that the number of men was wade up five thousand These are Master Knollys owne expressions and all that hee hath to say against this Argument with his confused reasons or rather triflings What man but of ordinary capacity that had but cursorily read over my Arguments would not have observed the truth so plaine and evidently laid downe in them and confirmed with such reasons as hee would not onely have beene well satisfied therewith but would have judged it either great blockishnesse in any and apparent ignorance to have yet doubted of it or great temerity and contentiousnesse of spirit to have gainsayed such evident demonstration of verity And yet Mr. Knollys out of the sublimity of his learning being a confident Disputant not onely confutes mee but repels the very Scripture it selfe and resists the Spirit of God which is usually with him and his Complices and all out of the spirit of error and contention to maintaine their severall factions So that it may be admired that such men are not abandoned and abhorred of all people truly fearing God especially when they see their whole study and indeavour is to delude and seduce poore silly creatures But I desire the Reader here deliberately to weigh and consider what the man saith hee denyeth that there is any mention in any Scripture quoted by mee of eight thousand new Converts besides women and children whereas in the second Chapter of the Acts which I cited there is mention made of three thousand added to the Church by the first Miracle and Sermon of the Disciples and this Master Knollys himselfe doth acknowledge pag. 8. of his Pamphlet His words are these To whom were added viz. to all those that were converted before by Johns and Christs Ministry about three thousand soules c. Here hee confesseth there were three thousand soules added to the Church neither is there any mention of women amongst them and in the fourth Chapter hee likewise acknowledgeth that the number mentioned there is five thousand His words are these For the Reader may consider that the number of them there mentioned are but five thousand Thus hee Now all the world knowes that three thousand and five thousand are eight thousand and the Scriptures quoted by mee made mention of these eight thousand what so ever M. Knollys saith to the contrary So that no man of understanding can doubt of the truth of what I asserted For that which is confirmed by the testimony of the holy Scripture were it single and by it selfe ought by all Christians to be beleeved but that which hath both the holy Scripture and learned Master Knollys his owne witnesse to confirme it that hee cannot with any good reason deny but that there was three thousand soules at the first Miracle and Sermon of the Apostles after Christs Ascension added to the Church and five thousand after both the Holy Scripture affirmeth and Master Knollys acknowledgeth it Ergo there were eight thousand new Converts added unto the Church at Ierusalem for these were distinct actions or effects of the Ministry of the Apostles and produced at severall times and upon severall occasions from the Miracles and preaching of the Apostles for otherwise they would not have been taken such notice of as such wonders and have beene so distinctly set downe with all the severall circumstances both of time place and persons neither would there have beene such running and going questioning and consulting about that busines by the Magistrates and Officers as there was if some new and strange thing had not happend and falne out for men doe not usually wonder at ordinary occurrences Now when the holy Scripture relateth this new miracle in the 4. of the Acts as an unexpected thing and suddenly hapning as a matter of great admiration astonishment yea of terrour to the enemies from the curing of the Criple from the preaching of Peter Iohn asserteth withal that many which heard the word beleeved the number of the men was about 5. thousand v. 4. It is apparently evident that as this was a new act distinct from the former so that the conversion of these five thousand was a new effect and distinct one from the former and is of purpose set down by the holy Ghost by it selfe severally to be taken notice of as a matter of more admiration than the conversion of three thousand by how much it was a greater work of the Spirit of God by another miracle and Sermon to convert five thousand then three thousand And without all controversie it was thus recorded with all its circumstances for this very end that it should for ever be taken notice of as a distinct miracle and work of wonder from the former For the holy Ghost is very accurate in the relation of it and very carefull that there should be no mistake in the whole businesse for in expresse words and termes it is said Notwithstanding all the opposition that was made by the Priests and by the Captain of the Temple and the souldiers to hinder the preaching of the Word and to smother this miracle yet many of them that heard the word saith the Scripture beleeved And that there might yet be no mistake or fallacy in the story and narration the very sum and accompt of those that were converted and beleeved by reason of this last miracle and Sermon is specified particularized and set down in these words and the number of the men viz. that beleeved saith the Scripture was about five thousand So that the Scripture it selfe sets down the number and calleth them men and not women and children And it is very safe alwayes to speak as the
their proceedings and being carried on with a blind zeale conceive they can never doe too much for them and therefore upon all occasions stirre up their Husbands and friends to advance the cause as they call it and to the uttermost with their power and purses to promote it and hence arise those factions on all sides every one of them in their particular places seeking the maintenance of their party hence it is that there are so many dayes amongst those of the congregationall way set apart for the seeking of God for that is their language for the gaining of some great wealthy personages into their new gathered Churches which they call the conversion of them when indeed it is nothing but the perverting and misleading of them into the by-wayes of their errors I could if need were instance many a Godly Family that were knowne to bee of approved Integrity Piety and Holinesse before these men appeared in the world and yet are now reputed the holy people and Saints and onely for being of the congregationall way The truth of this thing is so apparent as some of the Independents themselves have uttered it that they well perceive that many of their Ministers seeke themselves whiles they pretend they seeke the good of others yea they seeke the world whiles they perswade others to abandon it Saint John sayes 1 Epist Love not the world nor the things that are in the world for he that loves the world saith hee the love of the Father is not in him It is an impossible thing in Gods Dialect to serve two Masters they cannot serve God and Mammon for the friendship of the world is enmity with God saith Saint Iames. Now then when it is evident by all the practises of the Independents that they for the greatest part of them gape after the world and are chiefly imployed in those things that worldly men are taken up in as in biting and devouring one an other in hatred variance emulations wrath strife seditions heresies envyings c. It is manifest they are not the only holy spirituall people if Pauls doctrine be true Gal. 5. ver 15. 20 21. and that the Independents are too too busie in these imployments daily and sad experience teacheth us neither is there any truly iudicious and impartiall Independent that can gainesay what I now write Besides the holy people of old as Abraham Jacob Ioshua Cornelius c. were such as with their whole houses served the Lord they would have none in their Families but such as were of one and the same Religion they would neither connive at indulge or tolerate any Religion in their houses but that God had appointed as all the holy Scriptures testifie they at their uprising and lying down at their goings out and comings in Deut. 6. and Deut. 11. instructed their children and families in the statutes and commandements of the Lord they with their Men-servants and Maid-servants and the stranger within their Gates Exod. 20. tooke care that all of them under their roofes should sanctifie the Sabbath and keepe all the commandements of the Lord they thought it their duty and their place to see that they should serve the Lord with one shoulder and with one lip they left them not every one to the liberty of his owne conscience but according to the expresse rule exacted obedience from them to the commandements of the Lord and this they esteemed to bee the holinesse well pleasing unto God not their owne fained conceits Now in this thing also most of the Il-dependents are fayling in their duty as can be proved who leave their Families to their owne Genins in the serving of God so that they may goe whether they please on the Lords day and bee of what Religion and Sect they like best and therefore they follow not the example of the Godly Party and holy Saints and servants of God of old In all these regards and many more that might be specified it is apparantly evident that those Churches of the congregationall way doe not consist of all Saints as being but mixt assemblies as well as the congregations of their brethren that they separate from and therefore they are not the only holy people as not being crucified unto the world and the world to them as the holy people of old were when they are wholy for the world and this shall suffice to have spake concerning the first title they dignifie themselves with above their brethren calling themselves in all their preachings and writings the holy people and godly party whereas the truly holy people and Godly Party were ever humble in their owne eyes and thought basely of themselves counting themselves wretched and miserable sinners Neither doth the other title truly and onely belong unto them when they call themselves the praying people for our Saviour hath said Not every one that saith Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdome of Heaven but hee that prayeth according to his will for so Saint Iohn asserteth in his first Epistle chap. 5. verse 14. this is the confidence wee have in him that if wee aske any thing according to his will hee heareth us So that it is not the meere praying of any people that will procure audience from God but the praying according to Gods will for Christ hath said Matth. 6. that men are not heard for their much babbling for that is a thing displeasing unto him but in that they pray according to his direction and will so that of necessity it followeth they onely are the praying people properly so called that in all their supplications and requests follow the rule set downe by Christ himselfe the only Prophet of his Church and who knew best what the will of God was and what the meaning of the Spirit of God was for he onely it is that must helpe our infirmities in prayer for wee of our selves know not what to ask Rom. 8. It wil not be amisse therefore briefly to run over some of those Petitions that the Lord hath set downe for an everlasting rule for all the truly praying people to square their prayers by the which whosoever in prayer swarveth from they cannot properly be called the truly praying people Our Saviour teacheth us Matth. the sixth vers 9 10 〈◊〉 13 saying when ye pray say Hallowed be thy name So that they that pray aright desire that the name of God may be glorified and in so praying they desire that whatsoever hinders the glorifying and hallowing of Gods name may be taken away and removed now the toleration of all Religions under pretence of liberty of conscience which all the Independents not onely pray for but with all their might labour for will not make for the hallowing and glorifying of Gods name but greatly to his dishonour and the unsanctifying of his holy name and be a meanes of bringing in of profanesse and atheisme and all manner of abominations and damnable heresies as the very connivence at them already teaches
may we suppose were then in the Church at Ierusalem when many more great congregations and Assemblies of Beleevers were dayly added to that Church and when the holy Word of God in expresse termes in the 21. chap. of the Acts saith There were many ten thousands of beleevers there without all controversie there must needs at that time be a mighty many of Assemblies and Congregations and yet in the very infancy of it and when there were but five thousand beleevers as my brother Burton and Saint Hanserdo do both witnesse they then had divers Assemblies and Congregations and communicated in severall private houses and brake bread from house to house that is to say in every house And therefore I have now great hope that not onely Mr Knollys will confesse the brethren have acknowledged That there were many Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem but that Sir I. S. his scrupulous conscience also will be satisfied about this point especially when it commeth ratified not onely by Scripture but by the testimony and witnesse also of my brother Burton and Saint Hanserdo But if Sir I. S. shall still persevere in the error of his wayes and shall be so far from beleeving that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem as he will yet swear there were no more Saints there then could or did dayly all meet in one place or congregation then I will conclude of him that he is a gentleman very fit to be made a Knight of the post whether I send him to be whipped out of his grolleries Having for the gratifying Mr Knollys and Sir I. S. and for the undeceiving of all cordiall and well affected Christians and such as desire to know the truth been the more large in this controversie I shall now refer my selfe and all that I have said concerning my first and second propositions to the judgement of every indifferent Reader whether I have not sufficiently proved not onely that there were many congregations of beleevers in the Church at Jerusalem but that it is likewise acknowledged by the brethren that there were many Assemblies of them there if any credit may be given either to my brother Burton or to Saint Hanserdo and if they shall judge that I have sufficiently proved it both from Scripture and Reason and from the testimony of two prime witnesses of the Independent party against whom there can be no just exception by any of the Congregationall way they being of their own fraternity Mr Henry Burton and Saint Hanserdo by name I shall again challenge Mr Knollys his promise who hath ingaged himselfe That if I could by the expresse word of Scripture evince there were many congregations of beleevers in the Church at Jerusalem that he would relinquish his grollish opinion of Independency Now therefore when I have done it both by Scripture and the two witnesses above specified I say again I challenge his promise and if he notwithstanding all I have writ will not abandon this his error I shall never esteem him to be either a man of faith or common honesty and shall for ever hereafter proclaim both himself and all such teachers as he is fighters against God and his truth and resisters of his holy Spirit and such as withhold the truth from the people in unrighteousnesse And so I conclude this second Proposition and come now to see what they have to say to the third My third Proposition is this viz. That the Apostles and Presbyters Governed Ordered and Ruled this Church consisting of many congregations and Assemblies by a common Councell and Presbytery This is my third Proposition which is evident out of many places of the Acts and sundry other places of holy Writ some of which with my Arguments I shall here relate in order as they were first set down in my book called Independency not Gods Ordinance the which Mr Knollys I. S. and my brother Burton indeavoured to Answer unto And after I have faithfully related the Arguments I deduced from those severall Scriptures by which I then made good my third Assertion I shall also truely set down the Answer of Hanserdo Knollys and I. S. to all those Arguments The places therefore of Scripture with my Arguments gathered from thence are these following Acts 11. 27. And in those dayes there came Prophets from Ierusalem to Antioch and there stood up one of them named Agabus and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth through all the world which came to passe in the dayes of Claudius Caesar then the Disciples every man according to his ability determined to send reliefe unto the brethren that dwelt in Iudaea which also they did and sent it to the Presbyters by the hands of Barnabas and Saul Here in these last words we see that the Presbyters and none but the Presbyters received the Almes for it is said They sent it to the Presbyters by the hands of Barnabas and Saul which sufficiently proveth That the Presbyters in all Churches were the men in government as who had the Ordering and authority of appointing unto the Deacons how they should distribute those monyes that they might be best improved and disposed of which is an act of government as all men that know what belongs unto government will acknowledge Now should it be granted that these Presbyters here spoken of were the Presbyters of Iudaea which notwithstanding is not specified but onely the distressed brethren in Iudaea yet had it been in expresse words set down That the Almes had been sent to the Presbytery of Judaea the Presbytery of Ierusalem must necessarily have been included in it as being the Metropolis of Iudea and it was an ordinary thing for the Churches that were abroad and particularly that of Antioch to send to the Apostles and Presbyters of Ierusalem as we may see Act. 11. ver 22. and Act. 15. And by all probability Paul and Barnabas brought these Almes to the Presbyters of Ierusalem for he in the fifteenth chapter of his Epistle to the Romans maketh mention of a contribution that was made in Macedonia and Achaia for the poor Saints in Jerusalem Whether the Apostle saith he was going to Minister unto them and desired the Romans to pray for him that he may be delivered from the unbeleeving Jews and that his service for Jerusalem might be accepted of the Saints which by the learned Interpreters is generally taken that Paul speaketh of this time and that they were then sent to Ierusalem from Antioch But howsoever it should be understood that these almes were sent to the Presbyters in Iudea yet these two conclusions necessarily result from it The first that this expression comprehends also the Presbyters of Ierusalem as being the chiefe City of Iudea The second that the Presbyters in all Churches were the men to whom the government and ordering of businesses was committed and in whose hands the power and authority lay of
sent to Samaria by the Apostles Act. the 8. and Paul and Barnabas were sent from Antioch by that Church there to Ierusalem and from Jerusalem they were sent againe to Antioch Syria Galatia so that they were as much dependent as any other Ministers of the Gospel and therefore M. Knollys is altogether in error in asserting that the Apostles were independent neither is that true also that the presbyters were dependent upon the Apostles any farther then they commanded in the Lord for there was a speciall caution caveat made to the contrary not only by Christ himselfe who said to all his Followers and Disciples beware of false Prophets and false Christs but also by the Apostles themselves and that in the Synod at Ierusalem Acts the 15. who bad all the Gentiles beware and take heed that they listned not to any as comming from them unlesse they taught according to the word of God and their decrees yea Saint Paul in his Epistle to the Galatians Gal 1. verse 7 8. gives them and all Christians a speciall charge that if hee himselfe or any of the Apostles or an Angell from heaven should teach otherwise then hee had taught them that they should account him accursed and the same doctrine hee delivereth to the Corinthians 2 Cor. 10. and 11. charging them to take heed of fals Apostles although they transformed themselves into the Ministers of Righteousnesse and injoynes Timothy and Titus to doe the same and in them warnes all Christians to beware of false Teachers though they come in the name of Apostles if they bring not the doctrine of Christ and teach not according to sound words and the same doth Saint Peter in his Epistles and Saint Iohn in all his Epistles and commandeth them withall that they should not receive them into their houses nor bid them God speed and the same doth Saint Iude in his and the Church of Ephesus Revel the 2. verse 2. is commended for discovering and casting out the false Apostles by all which and many more proofs and reasons that might be alleaged it is apparently evident that the Presbyters did not depend upon the Apostles themselves but upon Christ whose Ministers and Angels they were and the stars in his right hand Apocalyp the 2. verse 1. who had their authority and Commission as well from Christ as the Apostles themselves had theirs and who preserved and protected them as well as hee did the Apostles bidding them not to be affraid what man could doe against them as the second and third chapters of the Revelations sufficiently declare and therefore they were all dependent upon Christ and not upon the Apostles as Master Knollys fondly saith who were their fellow servants though in a higher degree and order and if wee duly consider the transaction of all the busines in the Synod at Ierusalem Acts 15. the Presbyters were as much guided by the spirit in that Councell as the Apostles themselves as I said in my Argument and shall by and by by Gods assistance more abundantly prove that all the world may see the vanity of Master Knollys who thinkes all men should take for an Oracle every word that fals from his pen though it be never so erroneous and never so lyable to exception and just controule as that other of his expressions is where he saith that the Apostles were alwayes guided by the spirit in the Government of their Churches in the which words there is a twofold error for Peter was not guided by the spirit neither when Christ called him Sathan neither when he denyed his Master nor when he temporized amongst the Galatians besides the Churches were not the Apostles Churches as he erroneously and ignorantly speaketh but they were Christs golden Candlesticks Revel 1. ver 20. who walked amongst them And the Apostles professe 2 Cor. 4. ver 5. that they preached not themselves but Jesus Christ the Lord and themselves the servants of the Church for Jesus his sake and in the first of the Corinthians chap. 3. ver 21 22 23. Therefore let no man glory in men saith the Apostle for all things are yours whether Paul or Apollo or Cephas or the World or Life or Death or things present or things to come all are yours and ye are Christs and Christ is Gods If the Churches therefore be Christs golden Candlesticks and his Churches and his houses as Paul in the 1 of Timothy averreth ch 3. ver 14 15. where he saith These things I write unto thee that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thy self in the house of God which is the Church of the living God the pillar and ground of truth if therefore I say Churches be the houses of God and the Churches of the living God and the golden Candlesticks of Jesus Christ and he be the Lord of them and there be also a speciall prohibition given by Christ himselfe to all his Apostles and to all ministers that they should not Lord it over his people as the Princes of the Gentils did over them that were their subjects how then can Mr Knollys say that the Churches were the Apostles Churches Every man I conceive that hath any ordinary understanding that with deliberation shall read Mr Knollys scriblings will conclude of him That he is altogether ignorant in sacred things and if he had not been a frontlesse man and without all shame he would never have published so many errors and so much ignorance as he hath done to the view of the world neither would he ever have said that though the Apostles were called Presbyters in the Scripture yet they acted not as Presbyters especially when it was proved unto him and all those of his fraternity in my first book that they acted in all acts of Government and in that Synod at Jerusalem Acts 15. as ordinary Presbyters But because Mr Knollys is not yet satisfied about that point nor perhaps never will be for the more ample satisfaction if not to him at least to others I will here prove that point a little more fully viz. that the Apostles acted as Presbyters in an ordinary way as the other did and after I have done that I will briefly also answer Mr Knollys his grolleries concerning the fufferage and votes of the Church and people in that Synod in Ierusalem But first I will prove that the Apostles in the debate and controversie in the Synod and in that whole businesse did not act as Apostles with a transcendent and infallible authority but as Presbyters in such a way as makes their meeting a president and pattern to ordinary Councels and Synods For first Paul an Apostle and Barnabas though both extraordinary men and indued with an infallible spirit yet were at that time sent to Ierusalem by the Church of Antioch ver 2. as servants of that Presbytery who willingly and in obedience to the order of that Church subjected themselves to their determination which they would not have done had they acted as
once delivered to the Saints and against the wayes of Men and such as were brought into the Church by the cunning craftinesse of some and thrust upon the people as the Lawes and Ordinances and wayes of God when they are but their owne inventions and tend to no edification but to the trouble and disturbance of Church and State and such as already have brought a confusion upon us all and if the Lord do not speedily from Heaven send his helping hand we can expect nothing but desolation and all from these divisions that their new wayes have brought in and therefore it is high time for all good christians and such as love the peace of Sion more exactly to examine all these new wayes and to put them upon the proofe of them But that the Brethren should complaine of persecution amongst us and of evill usage it is against all reason and humanity and sheweth little gratitude in them to all the christians both thorow citie and countrey for if they remember when they came over though they had deserted the cause when they had most need of them they were more honoured then any of those famous and learned Ministers that had undergone the labour and heat of the day and they were preferred before them all and setled in the prime Lectures of the Kingdome and had more honourable maintenance then was usually given to any Lecturers before them and therefore they deale not brotherly in any of all their proceedings nor humanely so to asperse them as they ordinarily doe both publickly and privately I am confident there is not such a president in the world of humanity as that shewed here to them it is well knowne and their books practices declare it that they preach new ways new-born truths as they call them and set up new lights Now where was it ever heard of either in the Christian or Pagan world that it was ever permitted unto any Ministers or Preachers to have all the Pulpits in any nation to preach a diverse doctrine to that which is set up by authority and such as tends to make a faction and division amongst the people I doe most assuredly beleeve that there cannot the like president be produced Amongst the Heathen the Iewish Religion in many countries was tolerated but they were confined to their owne Synagogues they might not come in the Heathens Pulpits to preach up the Iewish worship amongst them or to set up another service contrary to the custome of the Nation It was an abomination to the Egyptians that the Iewes should sacrifice in their land they would not have suffered them then to have preached up their Religion in all their Pulpits In Turkey at this day Christians in many places have the liberty of their consciences amongst themselves and have their places for worship to assemble in but they are not so much as permitted to come into their Temples much lesse to preach up their Religion in their Pulpits In France the Protestants are permitted to preach but it is only in such places as are appointed for them they may not preach in Popish Pulpits thaâ— is not permitted unto them In the Low-Countries there is liberty of conscience which they so much plead for of which afterwards and yet the divers sects that are there are not suffered to preach out of those places assigned unto them or to preach publikely in any of their Pulpits against the Religion established by authority neither are they permitted to unchristian them or unchurch them and publikely and in print to proclame them enemies of Christs government and if any should dare attempt such a thing or go about to disgrace their Ministers and Church-government or in the least intrench upon the Magistrates authority they would be made slie like lightning before thunder And yet the bâ—ethren â—mong us have the liberty of all the Pulpits thâ—oâ—h the kingdome without controule and vent all their new wayes and their new borne truths and setup their new lights without any moâ—estation and have all respectfull usage and the onely esteeme of the peoâ—le and are more followed than all our learned godly and painfull orthodox Ministers and yet they cry out of persecution and unchurch and unchristian us all and proclame both Ministers and people all enemies of christ and his Kingdome and count of us little better than of Infidels and keep our children from Baptism and debarre us from Communion with them and exercise a kinde of absolute Lordship over all their brethren so as Diotrephes never did the like nor the Pope moâ—e and yet they cry out of persecution against the aints and lay odious aspeâ—â—ions upon their brethren and fellow Presbyters perswading the people that the Presbyterian way will be as bad or worse then thaâ— of the Prelates But if we as duly examine the manner of the Independent government and compare it with the Presbyterian as we have done the manner of their preaching with theirs we shall finde there is little reason why they should so vilipend the Presbyterian and magnifie their own and why they should make it so hatefull and odious to the people laying aside therefore all pâ—ejudice let us examine things with deliberation and then it will be soon evident that the Presbyterian government is not as bad or worse than that of the Prelates nor so lordly as that of the Independent government which is also Presbyterian and they as well Presbyters as their brethren It is well known that the Prelates assumed and arrogated unto themselves to be the onely Pastors of their Diocesses and ruled all the Ministers and people under them by their own authority and spoiled all both Ministers and people and the severall congregations under them of their liberty and made them all both Ministers and people their vassals and slaves and from whoseâ— ourts there was no appeal Whereas the Presbyterian manner of government is not as that of Lords and Masters oâ—er Subjects and Servants but social as between equalls between brethren friends and collegues who all judg are alâ— judged according to the Word of God where no congregation is above another congregation no Minister is above another Minister but only for order-sake where every Presbyter is left to enjoy the whole office of a Presbyter and each congregation to the freedome of a congregation and what belongs unto them and they able to performe it and the classes to corroborate and strengthen them And if any man be wronged by the Presbytery he may have the benefit of his Appeal and be cleared by more righteous Judges a course ever followed by the Churches and agreeable to the light of nature so that I say if men would without a prejudicate opinion weigh and consider all things and compare the government of the Prelates with that of the Presbyterian they would speedily be undeceived And again if they would compare the Presbyterian Government Dependent with the Presbyterian Government Independent they would have more honourable
and cryed out against it as an intolerable violating of Gods Law and asserted that it was enough to provoke the Lord to anger against the whole Land and write bookes and divine Tragedies upon Sabbath-breakers and Profaners of the Lords day and those that permitted the profanation of it which with the godly of those times was reputed their immortall honour how unsufferable a thing therefore is it I say now in these very men to pleade for a toleration of all Religions that could not then tolerate sports on the Lords day by which not onely the fourth commandement would be brake but all the commandements of both of the first and second Table without doubt they have a great deale to answer for before God for by the doctrine wee have learned from our Law giver and King the Lord Jesus Christ who is not changeable though they be they that breake the least ef Gods commandements and teach men so to doe whatsoever they esteeme of themselves that they set up Christ upon his Throne and whatsoever opinion men have of them they are the least in the Kingdome of Heaven and have much to answer for before his Tribunall for these their wicked dealings and truly it exceedingly saddeth my heart when I think of them how fearefully they are fallen and what a scandall and blemish they are to their holy profession that thus Chamelion like change their forme upon every occasion But how much more is it intolerable then in those men that have the name of Rabbies amongst those of the congregationall way and that would make the world beleeve they are the onely Saints for those to make themselves merry when the godly and faithfull Ministers of the Gospell out of sorrow and griefe of soul spread before the Lord the blasphemies of the times as good Hezekiah did the blasphemies of Rahshekah that it may move the people to mourning and sackcloth and to humble themselves under the mighty hand of God for the diverâ—ing of his Judgements that do for these their blasphemous tenents hang over the land I say how intolerable a thing is it in such men to make a sport at it and as Solomon speaks of the wicked in his time whom he calls fools to make a mock at sin Yet such there are as Cretensis by name amongst the rest is one of them who makes himselfe merry at these blasphemies and writes books in justification of those wicked and ungodly men and calls their damnable practices the infirmities of the Saints accouÌ„ting of them as Saints and holy men whereas the good and zealous Prophet Ieremiah ch 9. cryeth out at the beholding the abominations of his times far inferio to those of our dayes saying Oh that my head were waters and mine eyes a fountain of teares that I might weep day and night for the slain of the Daughters of my people Oh that I had in the wildernesse a lodging place of wayfaring men that I might leave my people and go from them for they be all adulterers an assembly of treacherous men And they bend their tongue like their bow for lyes but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth and they know not me saith the Lord. Here we see the posture of the holy Prophet we find him armed and clad with mourning to behold the profanation of the truth and we have here also his great complaint that at that time there were not any valian for it upon the earth If now this glorious Prophet were in the world and amongst us here in England and should behold those damnable blasphemies that are every where venâ—ed by the sons of Belial in these times should see how few upon the earth are valiant for the truth yea how they labour for a toleration of all Religions how would his spirit be moved how would his soul be perplexed within him to see it and what fountains of tears would he pou e out to the Lord quenching of the fire of his wrath and indignation against them but how much more would it perplex and trouble hâ—s soul to see any that should write yea publish books wherein they do not onely make themselves merry at those blaspnemies and count them the infirmities of the Saints but proclame them Saints that perpetâ—ate all these wickednesses and write most scurrilous â—ailing and vilifying books and Pamphlets against his holy servants that are valiant for the truth counting them speaking disgracefully and contemptibly of them but thimbles full of dust without all controversie it would sad his soul to the very death and so indeed it should trouble the souls of those that are truly godly to behold such lawlesse wickednesse not only to go unpunished but to find favor and applause even of those that are Masters of the Assemblies Truly howsoever out of the infinite patience of God these men are yet suffered yet I am most confident he that wil come wil come and not tarry to reveng his own quarrel the quarrel of his servants that are valiant for the Truth And I wil take the liberty to say thus much to St Cretensis that reverend learned and ever to be honoured Master Thomas Edwards who he so much vilipendeth and slighteth calling him a thimble full of dust will walk like a noble lyon when he like a Curr or Bandogg shall go bawling by him and withall I would advise him to take heed of that thimble For two or three fillips more of it upon his great noddle may so stagger him as he may happily never recover again and for ought I know or can discerne God may make halfe a thimble full of that dust to put out his eyes and the eyes of half the Independents and Sectaries in England For most assured I am that all such as in the name of the Lord as he doth come out against such notorious enemies of God and his Truth as Cretensis and his associates are will be able to confound them all and by the power of his might be ever strong enough to deal with the whole Army of them and with all those grolls and â—ynnies that take their part and appeare in their wicked cause I will therefore rather advise Cretensis not gyant like to fight any longer against the Truth but to humble himselfe for what he hath already done under the mighty hand of God whom he with his complices abetters have so highly provoked to wrath and anger against this poor tottering Kingdome It is not Cretensis with all his foul language shall ever be able to bespatter the immaculate reputation of learned and godly Master Edwards who hath in Gods cause ever shewed himselfe valiant for the truth and stood in the gap against the errors of the times and hath lift up his voice like a trumpet which will be for his immortall praises when too too many of his brethren which will not be for their honour were silent We finde it Matthew 13. ver 24 25. When the man had
of God upon all occasions I cannot but wonder for the truth is in all your language you never speak of your party who you call the confiding men the wel-affected in the Army the godly party but you count them and them only the saviours of the Kingdome the restorers of our paths to walk in and this is your own dialect God is not so much as named many times to my knowledge in your ordinary discourses although God hath given a caveat against such expressions and speakings Deut. 9. where the Lord charged all his people by a threefold prohibition that they should not ascribe the glory or honour of their victories to their own righteousnesse or to their own arme which is the Independents dayly practice to say their party have done all to teach all men that there is nothing that more displeaseth God then to give his glory to men that can deserve nothing at his hands who is ever to have the sole glory and honour of casting the horse and rider into the sea yea in expresse words it is often declared in holy Scripture that God can save by few as well as by many and that a King is not saved by the multitude of an host and that the horse is prepared for the battell but God gives the victory and all this to teach us ever to give the glory of all victories to God onely and to ascribe the honour to him Now then when we have so many witnesses that God is the Saviour of his people and the Restorer of our paths to dwell in and a speciall command to give him the praise of it how is it Brother that there is nothing in your mouth more frequent yea in your Pamphlets and prayers then that those men you call the godly party in the Army have done the whole work in this War yea and are the only saviours of the people and the healers up of our breaches and the restorers of our paths to dwell in robbing both God of his glory and all the other gallant men that indeed under God did the work of their due honour and praises who had in all respects a far greater share in all the victories obtained against the enemy as being farre better souldiers and better Christians and valianter men and the more in number by far ten to one then the Independent party And that both at Marston-moore and Naseby as in its due place will appear to all future ages But because Brother you have particularized the Battell at Marston-moore ascribing the glory of that victory wholy to your party and extreamly wrongfully accuse me about that businesse I shall here therefore set down what I find writ by a stedier hand then yours concerning that Battell and by such an one as I know would not divulge an untruth to the world neither would I have made use of his testimony not withstanding I know the truth of it but that I am able my selfe to prove what he hath writ by a cloud of witnesses that were there and received many wounds in that Battell and against whom there can be brought no just exception the words of the Author are these In this Battell saith he speaking of Marston-moore divers gallant men of both Nations had an honourable share of the Victory but none I hear of without disparagement to any did appear so much in action that day with gallantry as David Lesley Here those of the party we spake of a little before viz. the Sectaries and Independents to indear themselves to the people attribute unto themselves the honor of the day and stick not to call one of theirs the Saviour of the three Kingdoms when god knows he that they then did extoll so much did not appear at all in the heat of the businesse having received at the first a little scar he kept off till the worst was past This had not been spake of at all saith the Author if some idle men to gull the world had not given the honor of the day to those who had but little or no share in it And all this that this Author relateth can be proved by an Iliad of witnesses to be true and as this testimony is true so many more witnesses and those men of reputation can be brought to prove that the victory hath been wholly ascribed unto the Independent party in other Battells and Skirmishes when they have been many miles of from the very place and if there be but any commander of their party in any imployment though he strike but one stroke then he carries away all the honour from the rest and they have their pentionary pen-men both in the Army and at London to do this feat for them to give them the praise and honour of it to indeare themselves into the people and all to delude them and so it was at that Battell the Presbyterians underwent the heat of the day and the Independents challenge the honour Thus much Brother you have forced me to speak and now I go on Brother for the other particulars which to please your selfe and set forth your passion you charge me withall I will answer them as they lie And here I protest before the Lord I have never dealt dishonestly nor Serpent-like with you nor any creature living or that ever did live upon the earth Also that my heart is sound unto my God firme and filled full with Christian Love to all that fear his Name and walk before him in truth and sincerity And for my brain it is not so shallow but that through the wisdome which is given me of God who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not Jam. 1. 5. I can discern into the depth of Error and am able by Gods assistance to make it appear to all whose eyes are open to see the clear sun-shine of the truth That the way of your Independency is not grounded on the Word of God but its rice continuance and increase hath for the foundation thereof onely the fantasie ambition private interest self-seeking and cunning practices with a seeming hollownesse of some subtill and unstable spirits And likewise for the whole universe I assure you it never did nor never can bring in a just verdict and say I am a man not onely whose heart is divided but whose head is c. For the whole universe hath been and is so far from bringing in any such verdict that grave learned godly zealous and holy men in the Reformed Churches have given in another verdict of me whose Testimonies I can shew for my godly Life Learning and blamelesse Conversation whilest I lived amongst them beyond the Seas and I have the like from the most eminent godly learned men where ever I have inhabited in this Kingdome yea many Letters of late time I have received from godly learned men both at home and abroad that have read my Books whose faces I never saw and by them it plainly appeareth that the chiefe pious orthodox learned men of
the great and deep Charge you have brought against me wounding truth thorow my sides upon the due deliberation thereof I plainly perceived without dishonouring God and being cruell to my self I could not be silent for that my taciturnity might cause truth the ways of God to be evil spoken of and give an occasion to censorious spirits to vote me guilty of those Malversations wherewith you so slily unjustly have accused me all which my soul hates and ever did utterly abhor therefore although I was forwarder to pity your passion and more desirous to pass by your miscarriages then to take notice of them or divulg the weaknesses and too too grosse failings of you my Brother yet your Charge being of a high nature and published in Print it necessitated me to reply lest I should seem to approve of the murthering of my good name So that meerly to preserve the life thereof you have extracted from me these lines that men may know it lies upon you to prove it for I stand upon my justification and protest against every one of your foul Calumnies as notorious untruths And likewise that all who fear the Lord may be fully assured however you have rendred me to the world as one who hath a name to live but am dead so that I may stink in the opinion of such as are holy yet I do live to my God who I doubt not will discover the bottome and mystery of this iniquity For herein you have dealt with me as the Papists did with Reverend and Learned Mr John Calvin raising and publishing untruths accusing him for a scandalous walker and as guilty of abominable sins making his very name odious And by their false reports they blinded the eyes of the people causing them stil to imbrace continue in Error and so hardned their hearts against him that they would not hearken unto nor beleeve those precious Gospel-truths which he maintained but as their wicked practices were discerned by all that with humble hearts received the truth in the love thereof that they might be saved so I am confident the Lord Jehovah will bring forth my righteousness as the light and my judgement as the noone day Psal 37. 6. And will cause mine adversaries to be clothed with shame and to cover themselves with their own confusion as with a mantle Psal 109. 29. that all the World may see and know your Charg hath no truth in it but is an Independent plot invented and spread abroad to defame me and cause the people to suspect slight and disregard those sound Scripture truths I hold forth and constantly maintain Thus far I have answered your false accusations And in the presence of God I solemnly protest this is a true answer Brother I would here gladly dismisse the Reader for willingly I over look many of your invectives without mentioning of them But I find two or three passages more to which you engage me to speak for the clearing the truth of what I have written in my Postscript Page 68. concerning Independents as also to answer a complaint you have made against me And lastly to resolve two quaeries which you have propounded unto me and in these I shall endeavour fully to satisfie you and all men But first as a Phisitian and a faithfull Friend avoyding all flattery I cannot but truly relate unto you the dangerous condition I find you in for I assure you I feel your pulse beates very high and I see you have a vein puft up with windy matter and I perceive you are swoln with pernicious and corrupt humors and that Choler exceedingly abounds in you insomuch as you breath forth â—â—rong revilings and defamings against those that never wronged you and make loud exclamations as if I were a man of no Religion Piety Wit or Learning because I have as for truths sake I was induty bound truly stated the Question of difference between the Presbyterians and Independents and made it appear that INDEPENDENCY is not GODS ORDINANCE nor grounded on the holy Scriptures and that the practice of Independents and the way they plead for will prove destructive to Church and State Now as I am grieved to see it so I wonder at the suddain distemper and great heat you are fallen into which makes you talk so much and that against me by name more then against others wherereas before I writ and since many have and one more especially in part discovered the sinfull practices of Independents the evill and unwarrantablenesse of their new way And how ever you are generally blamed for rushing out upon the Theatre to oppose him by name it being a work in the judgement of all wise men fitter for any other man to have undertaken then your selfe because of some more then ordinary tye of friendship between you and him yet you have bridled up your fury against his person although you say in your Appendix he ranks your words under the head of his first Section containing divers seditious scandalous libellous passages against the Authority and Jurisdiction of Parliaments Synods and temporall Magistrates in generall c. Now here is exceeding great wrong done unto you if your words are not of such a nature and might you be the sole Judge I am perswaded you would pronounce them not guilty notwithstanding you do not revile vilifie and falsly accuse the Author thereof But on me you have let loose your fury and have fallen upon me so passionately who was once a Fellow Sufferer with you that it hath sadded the spirits grieved the hearts and given great offence unto all that are truly godly who walk in that old way and the known paths of holinesse which Gods word doth plainly direct and lead them into and contrarywise you have opened the mouthes of the wicked and given cause of rejoycing to such as are without by your bitter expressions and false accusations brought against me one of your Quondam Fellow Sufferers But Pag. 26. you please to say that I have much exaggerated vilifications upon the Independents And notorious is that I say in my Postscript Pag 68. as by experience I know not any Indepâ—â—dent in England two onely excepted that do not as maliciously and implacably hate the the Presbyterians as the mortallest enemies they have in the world c. To this Brother I answer I vilifie none I have spoken the truth but because I see you take such great exceptions at these words I shall prove the truth of them from your own Tenents or make it appear you are not the only Saints for I have said nothing there but what the professed judgment of those Independents I know I still keep within the bounds of my own knowledg and their practise inciteth me to beleeve And if there be any Independents that differ from their judgement and practice I know them not two only excepted as I said before But for those Independents who being in the company of such as are truly godly yet
because they are Presbyterians refused in private to pray or joyn in prayer with them and for such who hold and do pronounce all that walk not in their way to be enemies of Jesus Christ c. These Independents by their opinions and practices do sufficiently prove the truth of what I said in the forecited words and therefore you with all that hold such an opinion must disclaime that Independent principle if you denie the veritie of them otherwise you will declare to the whole world that you are not so zealous for Gods glorie nor love not the Lord so sincerely as his faithfull servants have formerly done and withall you will manifest to all men that you are more studious to preserve your own honours and reputation then the glory of God For whereas you with most of the Independents that I know doe hold and maintaine in your bookes intituled Vindication and Vindiciae veritatis That the Presbyterians are enemies to Christs Kingly office that instead of finding Christ set upon his Throne in their Congregations you find there no more but an Image such as Michael had made up instead of King David 1 Sam 19. or as those that in mockery made of Christ a Pageant-King striping him and putting on him a scarlet Robe and on his head a Crowne of Thornes and in his hand a Reed saluting him with Haile King of the Jewes with which title over his head they crucified him That the Presbyterians neither professe nor confesse Christ but say with the wicked Iewes we will not have this man to raigne over us Luke 19. 14. That they are at the best but Converts in part c. which is to say they are in King Agripas condition but almost Christians Act. 26. 28. or like Simon Magus still in the gall of bitternesse and bond of iniquity And if this great charge against the Presbyterians be true which you so confidently affirme in your books truly all the Presbyterians are in a more cursed condition then the wicked Iewes were for why they know and say they doe beleeve that Iesus Christ is God and man the only begotten of the father full of grace and truth Iohn 1. 14. who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh and declared to bee the Sonne of God with power according to the spirit of holinesse by the resurrection from the dead Rom. 1. 3. 4. The Redeemer of his Elect and chosen ones Ephes 1. 4 5 6 7 8. The Saviour of all that beleeve in him Ioh. 3. 15 16. The blessed and onely Potentate the King of Kings and Lord of Lords 1 Tim. 6. 15. Now the Presbyterians knowing and professing that they doe beleeve these Gospel truths which the Iewes did not know nor would not beleeve if they notwithstanding are enemies to Iesus Christ and refuse to set Christ upon his Throne but in mockery set up Christ as a Pageant King in their Congregations and doe as those who saluting him with Haile King c. yet reiect him saying wee will not have this man to raigne over us Then the Presbyterians sinne in the height of aggravation sinning against their owne knowledge and professed beliefe and all such cannot but hate Iesus Christ and are haters of God for the Lord Iesus Christ hath said Hee that hateth mee hateth the Father also Ioh. 15. 23. So that consequently you make them the children of the Devill For if God were their Father they would be so farre from being enemies that they would love the Lord Iesus Christ the Sonne of God this the Lord and Prince of life hath declared and He makes it his Argument to convince the unbelieving Jewes that God was not their Father saying If God were your Father yee would loue mee for I proceeded forth and came from God neither came I of my selfe but hee sent me If the Presbyterians therefore are enemies to Christs Kingly office and make a mâ—â—ke King of him who proceeded forth and came from God and was sent by him as you have once and again published in print then it must needs be granted they are not the children of God but the cursed children of the Devil Anathema maranatha because they love not the Lord Iesus Christ And from what hath bin said this is further necessarily implyed that either you with all that are of your judgement herein have falsely accused the Presbyterians as indeed you have to be enemies to Christs Kingly office otherwise if you and they are a holy people and such as doe advance Christ upon his Throne then I say I am perswaded the Independents doe hate the Presbyterians yea it were an hainous offence in them to love such whom they hold and judge to be enemies to Christ and so haters and enemies to God for to love any that hate the Lord is a wrath provoking sinne this the Prophet sheweth plainely when reproving King Iehosaphat hee said unto him shouldst thon helpe the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord therefore is wrath upon thee from the Lord 2 Chron. 19 2. wee find it in sacred Writ that Mordecai a holy man was so farre from loving any of Gods enemies that notwithstanding all the Kings servants that were in the Kings gate bowed and reverenced Haman for the King had so commanded concerning him yet Mordecai bowed not nor did him reverence Esth 3. 2 3. I suppose none will give way to such an uncharitable thought as to thinke that Mordecai would run the hazard of his owne ruine and the destruction of all the people of the Iewes for want of giving an outward Complement for that had beene but pride in him so rebelliously to transgresse the Kings Commandement But he knew Haman to be an Agagite of the stock and raze of the Amalecks who were enemies to God of whom the Lord had said that hee would utterly put out the remembrance of Amaleck from under heaven And had sworne that hee would have warre with Amaleck from generation to generation as hee will with all that are his enemies Exod. 17. 14. 16. and withall hee well remembred how much the Lord was displeased with King Saul for sparing and honouring Agag the King of the Amalekites in so much that hee rent the Kingdome from him for it and gave it to David and only for favouring his enemies and not destroying him according to Gods command therefore Mordecai one of Gods peculiar people and his faithfull servant looking on Haman as hee was an enemy to God hated him and would not so much as bow nor doe outward civill reverence unto him Indeed maliciously and implacably to hate any is a sinne that cryeth loud in the eares of God and of this crying sinne too too many Independents are deeply guilty as is very evident by their raising up false reports to defame those who indeavour to walke in the wayes of Gods Commandements without hypocrisie but to hate Gods enemies is no sinne for it is the fruit of true grace and