vve haue no Elderâ—… as yet GREEN The Church is neuer without the power to excommunicate 5 EGER. Our Pastors only now vvant some Censurers BAR. The leaâ—…t member of the Church that is a CoÌ„municant hath as much interest in all the censures of the Church as the Pastor haue equall power according to the rules of the word to censure the Pastor for errour or transgression as the Pastor hath to â—…ensure them To M r. EGERTON delyuer this Almightie Gâ—…d vvhose Spirit is one and ioyneth in one all his elect vâ—…ssells in his good tyme bringing them forth from darkâ—…es to light gyâ—…e you vs â—…o be of one mynde of one iudgment in the trueth to the glory of his owne name our reioycing in his mereyes for euer and the present conuerâ—…ion of manie to the â—…bedience of CHRIST SEing it hath pleased God after our long imprisonment once of late to send you vnto vs by what meanes or to what further purpose we yet know not to giue vs a beginning â—…n entrance into the discussing of his trueth by some kinde of conference which because it was not with that harmonye that it may please God to effect if your heart as ours be set to know his will and to proceede by one rule euen the rule of his authenticall TestameÌ„t We are moued to write vnto you rather by your modest honest sober behauiour shewed to vs the Lords most vnworthie witnesses then for anie procurement of peace to our selues For most of all we desire your saluation and with all the good of manie by the measure of spirituall guyftes gyuen you and as we trust you will bestow them to the furtherance of his Church Yet in your last conference to speake the trueth we found your spirit in no louing consent to the trueth but dangerouslie corrupted or at least set to oppose with poysoned distinctions by vaine philosophie yea against that trueth your self would not insist to denie whether to trye our streÌ„gth or to abuse the hearers or for endangering your self Yet against al these PAVL saith we cannot anie thing against the truth but for the truth We haue since often merueiled we heard no more from you or of your estate which theÌ„ was made manifest to be without promise whiles you exercise a ministeriall function vnder ANTICHRIST in a false office vnto a confuse assembliâ—… of all sorts of people one with the world Wherevppon hearing no further yet of you we thought it good in tender care of your saluation for the aduancement of the Lords trueth to shew you so neere as our fraile memories could collect the summe of such Arguments or Positions Answers as passed betwene vs hauing set downe nothing but that wherof we haue the positioÌ„s to shew vnder wryting at that present honest witnesses to testifie our vprightnes herein And least you should otherwise conceiue that we should some wayes iniurie you we haue sent you a Copie to pervse and if you make yet anie other aâ—…swere to our Assertions then there is conteyned we freely gyue you libertie so to do But cheiflie the end of our wryting is to stirr you vp not to leane the matter thus coÌ„sidering the seriousnes therof but eyther yeild thervnto or procure some more large and free place time to make our mynds plaine Faith open one to another that the truth may appeare and they that depart from the same be knowen And the same vve vvryte vnto you herein we hereby offer to all the rest of your fellow Ministers our hearts as the Lord knoweth being opeÌ„ to all men to their good the glory of our GOD the father of our Lord IESVS CHRIST only the Lord delyuer vs from vnreasonable men and suppresse all his aduersaries and opposers against his glorious truth Amen Most desirous of your fellowship in the Faith of Christ. HENRY BARROVV IHON GREENVVOOD To M r. BARROVV and M r. GREENVVOOD The Lord Iesus open oâ—…r eyes to â—…ee the truth sanctifie our tongues 〈◊〉 penâ—…es to declare the same Ireceyued a Letter from you also a Conference in writing Touching your Letter this I answere First for those poysoned distinctions you mentioÌ„ if you had named them I hope no poyson would haue appeared in them except it had come from the contagion of your owne Spirits Secondly for vaine Philosophie if you meane therby for other I remember none that help which GOD hath lent vs by Logicke to reason breiflie and plainly you do but as Brownâ—… hath done whose braynlesse reasons to proâ—…e the vanâ—…tie therof are not only easie to be answered by other men but also abundantly confuted by his owne practise both in speach writing Touching your feined Conference this I say I finde in it some things wanting that were spoken manie things expressed that were neuer spoken no not ymagined on my behalf most things that were spoken peruerted Finally I finde it so full of partialitie so voyd of vpright true dealing and so far out of order that I haue neither leasure muchlesse anie luâ—…t to deale with it And if you shall proceede to gyue out Copies I shalbe readye to disclayme you wheresoeâ—…er I come not only for men voyde of pietie but euen of ciuile honestie also Now concerning a free conference I haue neither powre nor will to performe it my reasons I reserue 〈◊〉 further oportunitie But if you will deale with me do this send me vnder your hand some 6. or 7. or as you thinke good for the nomber of your cheif reasons whie you refuse to come to our publique assemblies breiflie plainly concluded and I will by the help of GOD as my leisure shal serue set you downe my answere in the like sort vnder my owne hand with reasons why you ought to come This course if you like I will deale with you as I may otherwise I will not meddle Written the 14. Aprill 1590. Written by him that not only desireth your good in the Lord but also is ready by anie peaceable christiaÌ„ course of proceeding to furder the same I EGERTON so I write To Mr. EGERTON MOre Grace feare of GOD vnto you This your replie vnto our Letter we haue receiued read with litle comforte perceiuing therby euen that smale sparke of hope which began to appeare in you to be vtterly extinct the bellowes burnt the drosse wil not be purged froÌ„ the siluer that there might proceed a vessell to the Fyner so that the Founder should melt in vaine where the Lord hath not made choise of the mettall Greatly sorie we are to behold your fâ—…arefull estate who not being able to approue the ministrie you exercise by the word of God yet to your owne furder iudgmeÌ„t the seducing of manie soules continue to plead for practize the same for the feare of men the loue of the world to auoide persecution submitting your self your whole church ministrie Doctrines vnto the pro
which we haue eyther falsified or peruerted least you should be taken reproued as your associate M r. SPERIN was this other daye in the exceptions he tooke both by theis written prapositions by sondry eare witnesses that were present vnto his face Yea euen of that heynous perilous PropositioÌ„ which you now so faine would call backe viz. That you had agreed amongst your selues that the Bishops be Antichristian Wherevnto though you were then enforced to yeild through the ineuitable powre of God his word wherwith you were pressed Yet since for the feare of mens faces to auoide perâ—…ecution you haue both denyed the vndoubted truth of God or that euer you spake the same coÌ„trarye to your owne coÌ„science Yea for the preseruation of your worldly eâ—…timation for this corâ—…upt dissembled peace you hold with your LL s. the Bishops you are not ashamed vnto the rest of the vituperie wherwith you haue laden vs to add theis most vnchristian vndeserued threats Namely thaâ—… you vvill disclaime vs in all places vvbersoeuer you come not only for men voide of 〈◊〉 but euen of ciuile honestie and all this without either fault of offence made you at anie time vnlesse to witnesse vnto that truth which we haue sene heard be so greiuous vnto you Alas M r. EGERTON what shall you gaine by this Suppose you to buyld or repaire your credit vppon or by the ruynes of ours Can you immagine to stay the course of that truth which God hath sent forth by so manie witnesses which heard you Or can you think by these vaine threats to stop our mouthes froÌ„ testifying or publishing this or anie other truth of our God vnto all men by all meanes We feare not the curse causeles neither shunne we the light Our ReligioÌ„ honestie we willingly submit both in this or in anie other thing we affirme or doe to the christian iudgment of all men The further you shall proceede in this intemperate vnchristiaÌ„ course the greater shalbe your owne shame iudgement when God shall returne the venome and malice of your owne tongue into your owne bosome In that you will neither meddle with the Conference past nor accept of anie to come the reasons you reseruâ—… keepe so secret are manifest vnto all men Namely because your deeds are euill and cannot abide the fierie tryall by Gods word therfore seeke you by all meanes to hide them from the light being for nothing so sorye as that you cannot call backe that which hath alreadye passed you knowing that the further you meddle with it the more you stryue the furder and faster you shal but entangle your self Wherfore with one consent you your fellow ministers studie and stryue to suppresse that truth you cannot resist But he whose eyes are like a flame of fyre shall shortly discouer your practises and fight against you with that sword of his mouth As to your offer of answere by wryting vnto 6. or 7. of our cheifest reasons whie we refuse your publick assemblies we hold it needles to trouble you with more vntill you haue answered those vnanswerable reasons brought in one sentence of our former letter vnto you against your owne counterfeiâ—… antichristian ministerie which you were sayd to haue deriued from and to exercise 1. vnder Antichrist 2. In a false office 3 to a confuse assemblie of all sorts of people All which seuerallie plainely are proued vnto you in that our conference with you All which you haue willingly balked as also denied what your self in the sayd Conference affirmed and vtterly refused all furder coÌ„ference Wherfore we cannot be induced to thinke that you haue anie meaning christianly freely to discusse theis points by wryting especyallie since you could by no meanes be drawen to wryte at our being togeather yea you were afraide to speak what truth you knew But we manifestly discerne this pretence to be but one of your sleights to vphold your crazed credit to withdraw vs the eyes of others from theis vnrecouerable breaches as though you had some better power or skill to defend your doings by writing then either you haue done or dare yeilde to do by free conference of mouth As to your disordered parish asseÌ„blies wherein you will needs be still powred out in the error of BALAAM for wage we haue loÌ„g since prouâ—…d them wholly Antichristian by sondry reasons drawen from the descriptioÌ„ of the true established Church of CHRIST which reasons a yeare a half since were deliuered vnto some of your chief ministers whervnto we neuer yet receiued anie answere Wherfore we haue no more to say vnto you but to desire you them to looke to your estates no longer to seduce the people in the bye wayes of mens deuises to their assured destruction your owne fearefull reckoninge except God giue you repentance Which grace that you may finde we will not cease euer so long as we may to pray for you And this with vnfeyned desire of your saluation HENRY BARROVV IHON GRENEVVOOD close Prysoners in the Fleet for the testimonie of the truth of the Gospell of our Lord IESVS CHRIST to whom be glory for euer To M r. BARROVV M r. GREENVVOODE MOre truth and loue c. The question I named to my remembrance was whether yt were lawfull to come to our Church assemblies or no. But because that which you haue chosen tendeth to the same end I willingliâ—… accept yt Youâ—… Arguments are three and may be thus concluded That ministrie which is 1. Deriued from exercised vnder ANTICHRIST 2. a false Office 3. in a confused people is not lawfull But such is ours Therfore our ministerie is not lawfull For answeare wherof I denie your Assumption or minor Proposition and returne the same reasons vpon your head thus That ministerie which is 1. Deriued from exercised vnder CHRIST 2. in a true Office 3. amonge a faithfull people is lawfull but such is ours ergo Proue your Assumption I will mine In the meane time I trust myne affirmation shalbe as authenticall as yours Your Letter came the 2. of this 5. 〈◊〉 I write the 4. Valete â—…stote sani He that wisheth your conuertion I. EGERTON To M r. EGERTON GRace vnto you from the Father of lightes to see yeild vnto the truth Your Letter of the 4. of this 5. Moneth we haue receaued perceiue therby your CoÌ„trouersie touching the truth of that Brief of our conference which we sent vnto you to be ceased And nowe your speach turned backe againe to the questioÌ„ there handled amongst vs which we hoped to haue then beene thus far forth discussed decided that now you had no cause to denie or retract that which there was enforced you condâ—…scended vnto espeacially without adding anie one reason vnto your former or disprouing anie one reason brought by vs except peraduenture you would haue your owne bare affirmation be held as
how can you be thought or dare you affirme to haue repeted this error in your entrance into your ministrie when you still pleade for iustifie that calling by the ciuile magistrate when you confesse it repugnant vnto condemned in the Testamet of CHRIST how can you be said to haue repented it when you still reteine it stand administer by yt and ioyne vnto such as still enter that way neither in deed haue you aâ—…ie other calling vnto your ministerie in your Church make it therfore either good or euill lawfull or vnlawfull by the word of God let vs bring it to the triall SPER. I stand not so much by their calling as by the calling of God by whom I am enabled to my ministrie BAR. This is Anabapâ—…isticall to iustifie open transgression by the inward conscience or gyftes might not anie thus vsurpe the ciuile magistrates office also by theiâ—… inward gyftes wisdome knowledg fitness c. but God hath ordeined a lawfull calling to euery lawfull office which may at no haÌ„d be seuered from the office which calling who so wanteth taketh honour to himself to administer c. breaketh the boundes of God vsurpeth You haue no giftes which you haue not receiued of God God knoweth his owne giftes which he hath gyuen to euery one best whom hâ—… seeth meete hath appointed to the ministerie vnto such he alwayes gyueth a lawfull calling vnto the ministerie wherfore you must eyther approue your calling by the word of God or els be held 〈◊〉 vsurper for all your giftes SPER. The BB s. tolerate manie thinges with vs. BAR. They allow nothing but their owne proceedings neither doth the land receiue or alow anie other SPER. I say not allow they may suffer that they allow not BAR. Here is good worke emongst you they tolerate with you you subscribe vnto them thus are you togeather in conspiracie against CHRIST SPER. Will you say that M r. EGERTON Mr. GARDINER are not true ministers of the Gospell because they haue no such calling as you require BAR. I require no other calling then CHRIST enioyneth which calling if they want as I am sure they do I dare affirme that they do not serue Christ in the ministrie of the Gospell all extraordinarie offices callings thervnto being now ceased SPER. All the Churches learned in EVROPE giue vs consent and allow vs for Ministers BAR. But vntill you approue your selues such by the word of God yt will nothing auaile you SPER. Our giftes Doctrines approue our ministrie Did you euer heare M r. EGERTON M r. GARDINER BAR. You still oppose your giftes against God hold the faith in respect of mens persons The meÌ„ you speake of I neuer heard in their ministerie but I know them by their ministerie to be notable Sectories false Teachers SPER. They be men of singuler giftes how can you gyue out this of them know them not neither euer heard them teach BAR. I am taught to know the tree by the fruit a false Minister by his antichristian entrance office administration all which are notably found vppon them vppon you all neither will I say that the one of theÌ„ bought his Benefice or that the other hath bene conuinced of false Doctrines by his owne Auditorye sondry times SPER. The first hath repented that you haue the other but by hearesay they are knowne to be learned men such as teach sound Doctrines BAâ—… My hearesay hath better proofe then your know But how can theis or anie of you teach sound Doctrine sincerely in a false ministerie BALAAM the Pharises SataÌ„ himself had hath as great giftes learning as they or anie of you But if we would come euen to this preaching you boste of I suppose more corrupt Teachers cannot be found in anie age then these they teaching nothing almost truly much lesse sincerely SPER. I teach Christ Iesus very God very man him crucified that truly BAR. I will not presse you with anie Argumentes drawne from your false entrance administracoÌ„n all which vndoubtedly coÌ„uince that you cannot preach CHRIST soundly yet is there no heretike that holdeth not some trueth But this I affirme will approue that you deny the whole anointing of CHRIST in his three Offices of KING PRIEST PROPHET and therfore you deny CHRIST to be come in the flesh cannot preach him soundly I graunt indeed that you preach him crucified in your Sermons Church buffetâ—…d skourged crâ—…wned with thornâ—…s by â—…ayling blasphâ—…ming impriâ—…ning le is faithfull witnesses seruants dayly at all handâ—…s you preach him blindfoulded by drawing a vaile ouer his facâ—… that the pâ—…ople should not see to th'end of his ministerie not one of you either Priest or people as yet knowing what belongeth to a true professioÌ„ a true CoÌ„munion a true Office or a tâ—…ue entrance much lesse to true administration CHRIST crucified you all abhorr you caÌ„not abide his crosse you will not suffer or abide by anie trueth but dayly seeke new cauills distinctions and â—…uasions to hide anie trueth which bringeth dâ—…nger or to auoide the crosse of CHRIST therfore you shall not reigne with him It were an infinite thing to reckon vp the diuerfitie of opinions sectes errors that are found emongst you of the ministrie it being almost an vnpossible thing to finde two of you of one â—…udgment or anie one of you constant to your selues except it be in euill one preaching one Doctrine in one place another the quite contrary in another place yâ—…a some of your chief Teachers haue preached pâ—…linodaÌ„ concerning your ministerie Sacramentes of your Church But I would now know what office these men you speake of or your self do execute SPER. M r. EGERTON is a Doctor Mr. GARDINER my sâ—…lf are pastors BAR. Your Church of England hath no such office as the Teachers Office yt hath no other then Vniuersitie Doctors which are not in anie office or therby Ministers I wene also he hath a dumbe Minister one that cannot preach for his Pastor so that he is a hireling Curat no Christian Teacher As for M r. GARDINER your self you be parish Parsons therfore cannot be held christian Pastors SPER. I deny your Argument it followeth not because they are termed Parsons therfore they are not Pastors BAR. Both the name Office are diuerse therfore not the same SPER. The Parson is called in latine Rector Ecclesiae which name properly agreeth to the Pastor BAR. Your latine name is popish one of the names of blasphemie written vppon the heades of the Beast for CHRIST hath appointed many to the office of gouerning ouerseeing not the Pastor only And therfore this name is not proper to the Pastor SPER. The Pastor should gouerne the Church BAR. But the Pastor is not to gouerne yt alone there are others ioyned in Commission with him therfore he cannot in this maner