to this infection might perceiue the way to recouer their former health temperatly that the enimy should not thinke himselfe rather illuded then aunswered Which if it please your most excellent Maiestie to like alow that it may passe to the hands of your people I trust in Christ that such as haue any feare of God before their â—yes and care of life to come will hold themselues satisfied and the rest be better aduised before they runne headlong into that extreeme perdition of bodie soule and horrible downefall of disobedience and infidelity to God and their Prince The king of kings and Lord of Lordes blesse and preserue your Maiestie and as hee hath begun a good and glorious worke in you and in this Realme by you so continue the same by lightening you with his holie Spirit and defending you with his mightie arme as hee hath doone from the daie that hee chose you to bee the Leader and Guider of his People that you maie long keepe them in trueth and peace by the assistaunce of his grace to the praise of his glorie increase of the Godlie and griefe of his and your enimies Euen so Lord Iesus Your Maiesties most humble and dutifull subiect THOMAS BILSON THE GENERALL CONTENTS of euerie part The first part Examineth all the proofes and places of the Iesuits Apologie their forsaking the Realme and running to Rome what aid the Fathers sought at Rome and how the Bishop thereof in all ages hath beene resisted the intent of his Seminaries and vertues of his Clergy The second part Prooueth the Princes supreme power to commaund for truth within her Realme and the Pope to haue beene a duetifull subiect to the Romane Emperors Ecclesiastical Lawes for eight hundred yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour iudge The third part Refelleth the Iesuits reasons and authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes the bearing of armes by subiects against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies and iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings Princes conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thousand yeres after Christ and none agnised by anie Christian Prince vntil this present day The fourth part Sheweth the reformation of this Realme to be warranted by the woord of God and the auncient faith of Christs Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to bee nothing lesse than Catholikes To the Christian Reader IT is some time since good Christian Reader that lighting on the Iesuits Apologie I receiued the same with purpose to refute it if the matter so imported Perusing it ouer I found it curiouslie penned with picked termes and beautified with plausible and popular persuasions reasons but as for substaÌ„ce or learning or weight of proofe I saw nothing in it that should occupie a meane Scholer the space of two daies Laying that booke therefore aside I determined at mine own choice and libertie to handle the matters there most impugned I meane the othe and the Princes supremacy in such sort as men of meane capacitie abused by their secret whisperinges and open raylings might plainly perceiue both the Princes power to commaund for truth to be lawfull and good and the Iesuits cauils impugning the same to be vaine and childish As I was in this resolution saw no cause for that I should refute no direct aduersarie to make more hast than both health which was not great businesse which I cannot want would suffer me there hapned an iniurie to bee offered to the inheritance of the College where I am by a false title deriued from before the foundation of the house and so strengthened on euery side with auncient deedes and euidence that the forgerie was hard to bee discerned and harder to be conuinced but by infinite searching in the muniments of many churches and Bishopricks as well as in our owne and re-examining sundrie large and laborious commissions which they had taken out before my time to testifie the keeping and iustifie the deliuering of those suspected deedes and ligiers To the deâ—ecting and impugning of this no person was or would be vsed I speake for the paines and not for the skill but my selfe the cause was so huge the comparing of the circumstances and contrarieties both of deeds and witnesses so tedious the proofe so perplexed and intricate and the daunger so neerely touched the whole state of the house I was forced for two yeares to lay all studies aside and addict my selfe wholy first to the deprehending and then to the pursuing of this falsehood No sooner had I breathed from this vnwoonted trauell and betaken my selfe to my former purpose but my happe was to light on the Iesuites Defence of English Catholikes not hauing the Authors name but in order of writing and phrase of speech resembling right D. Allen the maker of their Apologie Looking earnestly into the contents thereof I perceiued the pen-man to haue such confidence in his tongue that hee doubted not but to ouerrule the world with words his pretensed policies So far he wadeth in other mens causes and common wealthes So boldly he pronounceth what himselfe pleaseth of Popes and princes and of their titles Counselles Lawes and actions neither alloweth hee any man to bee religious or catholike but such as him-selfe liketh and euerie-where hee sheweth a speciall care to smooth and stroke his holy Fathers indeuors and censures actes and iudgementes warres and wickednesse with termes of the greatest deuotion and reuerence subiecting all things vnder his feete inuesting him with both swords and suffering no man king nor Cesar to haue assurance of honor or life longer than he kneeleth downe and adoreth the image of the beast In this maiestical course surrly conceit hee goeth on thinking he can captiuate kingdomes with the volubilitie and intemperauncy of his tongue which is so swift to furnish a lie that he disdaineth the basenesse plainesse of trueth The saucinesse and egernesse of that Defence I was then and am yet persuaded to ouerskip as hauing learned that princes affaires and actions are aboue my vocation and wholy without my profession neither doe I thinke it lawfull for priuate men rashly to speake or possible for them vprightly to iudge of Princes doinges vnlesse they be fully acquainted with the secretes and circumstances of the things which Princes vse not to commit to many nor to any but those that are of their counsell I therefore then did now do determine to leaue this peremptorie prater whosoeuer he be to his own vaine knowing that besides open rightes and titles secret preuentions are often vsed betweene Realmes and sometimes reuenges which Magistrates by lawful meanes may procure Onely the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all his skill learning
after they were indued with the power of the holy Ghost from aboue was assured truth void of all error the same spirit ruling their tongues that guided their pens But this priuilege to teach and write trueth without error was annexed to Peters person not conueied along to his successors no more thā their writings are canonicall because his were Phi. This was not the priuilege of S. Peters person but of his office that he should not faile in faith The. If you ment that other Apostles which were of the same office with him were to haue the same priuilege as well as he you saide right for the churches of Christ in all places where Peter neuer preached needed the same assurance of faith the same direction vnto trueth that the churches did which were planted by Peter But you will haue this priuilege remaine to some successor after Peters death and for that you shew vs no authority besides your owne which God knoweth is very simple Phi. Al the fathers applie this priuilege of not failing in faith to the Romane church Peters successours in the same Theo. You belie all the Fathers with one breath but that you haue a priuilege to say what you list in other men this were an arrogant an impudent lie What fathers I praie you applie this promise of not failing in faith to the Romane Church You say al for discharge of your credit let vs heare some Phi. S. Barnard writing to Pope Innocentius saith To what other See was it euer said I haue praied for thee Peter that thy faith do not faile Theo. Could you find no father for the space of 1100. yeres that euer applied these wordes to the church of Rome before Bernard To be plaine with you masters Bernard is too yōg to cary the name of antiquitie too single to haue the credit of al the fathers But with thē that haue no mo one must go for all Indeed all the fathers that euer applied this priuilege to the church of Rome are poore Bernard more than a 1000. yeres after Christ in the midst of corruption but in this case wee require some grauer and elder father than Bernard Phi. To the which saith S. Cyprian infidelity or false saith can not come Theo. To which what church or successors Phi. Which you wil. And where you require fathers that the church of Rome can not er Cypriās words be very plaine Post ista nauigare audent ad Petri cathedram atque ecclesiam Principalem vnde vmtas Sacerdotalis exorta est a schismaticis profanis literas ferre nec cogitare eos esse Romanos quorū fides Apostolo praedicante laudata est ad quos persidia habere non possit accessum After al this they dare saile cary letters frō schismatiks profane persons to the chaire of Peter the principal church whence priestly vnity had her beginning do not remēber the Romanes to be those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom infidelity cā not come Theo. You do wel to repeate the place at large it wil ease me of some paines What conclude you of these words Phi. That the Bishop of Rome can not er Theo. How fet you that about Phi. To Peters chaire infidelitie can not come Theo. Those be not Cypriās words Phi. To the Romanes he saith infidelity cā not come Theo. He addeth somwhat more whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. All the better For if S. Paul praised their faith it was the truer Theo. But whose faith did Paul praise the Bishops or the peoples Phi. Why aske you that Theo. Because that directeth the sense of Cyprians words Phi. Whose say you Theo. I aske you you returne it to me Well then let S. Paul speake for vs both I thanke my God through Iesus Christ for you all because your faith is renoumed throughout the whole world You al containeth as well the people that receiued the faith as the Preachers that taught it and of the twaine rather the people than the Preachers because the preaching of the faith was as true elsewhere as in Rome but either the zeale deuotion of the people in receiuing the faith was greater at Rome than elsewhere as S. Hierom noteth that S. Paul commendeth or else because their citie was imperiall the fame of their receiuing the gospel was bruted farther abroad thā of other smaler cities did incourage others to go forward with the more boldnes for the which Paul thāketh God Take which you wil the peoples faith is it that S. Paul praiseth as his own words witnesse To you all that are at Rome I thanke my God for you all because your faith is made manifest to al the world Now if Cyprian say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes whose saith was praised by the Apostles mouth then can none of the people of Rome erre because the faith of them all was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. The church of Rome can not erre nor the people neither so long as they follow the faith of that church Theo. But if you build this on Cyprians words you must say that the church of Rome can not erre so long as shee followeth the people of Rome for their faith was praised by the Apostle And therefore choose whether you will impart this priuiledge to euery Citizen and Artisant in Rome that they can not erre as well as to the Pope that hee can not erre or else seeke for an other meaning of Cyprians saying Phi. What other meaning should we seeke for be not the wordes plaine enough Theo. You neither translate them right nor applie them right For Cyprian doth not discourse in that epistle whether the Romanes them-selues may fall from the faith but whether wicked persons reiected in other places from the communion should haue any refuge or find any fauour at Rome that he largely dissuadeth bringing this amongst others for a reason that where the Apostle praised the people of Rome in his time for their zealous imbracing the faith of Christ and incouraging others to doe the like it would nowe bee a great shame if wicked disturbers of the faith should bee succoured by them which he thought good to expresse in these words Neither doe they remember the Romanes to bee those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom wickednes or vnfaithfulnesse may not haue accesse Phi. Out vpon you what a gloze haue you brought vs here Theo. None but such as the whole Epistle shal iustifie Phi. You translate non possit may not Theo. A foule ouersight I assure you as though the very children in Grammer scholes did not learne that posse doth signifie to may or can or your law it selfe did not allow vs that exposition when it saith Id dicimur posse quod de iure possumus we can
greater part of those which professe christianitie or some speciall places or persons must for euer be directed vnto all truth and preserued from all error this can not be concluded by these wordes Phi. To teach all truth and preserue in truth and from errour the holy Ghost is promised and perfourmed onely to the church and the chiefe gouernour and generall councels thereof Theo. In deede you take vpon you like Gouernors to appoint what the son of God shal meane who must haue the holy Ghost as if the matter were in your hands not in his Phi. Do we take vpon vs to limit the holy Ghost Theo. What else do you when of your owne heades you restraine the words of our Sauior as you liâ—t Phi. As we list Theo. Our Sauiours words are When that spirit of truth commeth he shal teach you al truth This say you is promised perfourmed only to the church the chiefe Gouernor the Pope and generall Councels thereof As if You in S. Iohns Gospel did signifie none but the Pope the chiefe Gouernor and such Bishops as the Pope will admit to his conferences which you call the generall councels of the church and what is this else but to diuide the holy Ghost as you thinke good Phi. The rulers of the church must needs haue the holy Ghost Theo. Meane you all or some Phi. The most part of them Theo. How proue you that to be Christes meaning that the most part of them which can procure themselues miters or rather catch vp Bishoprickes shall be sure of the holy Ghost in such measure that they shall neuer mistake the saith nor any parte thereof Phi. If they should erre the church should erre Theo. You run from bad to worse Your own law wil shew you the falsenes peruersnes of your Rhemish obseruations and expositions Quaero de qua Ecclesia intelligas quod hic dicitur quod non possit errare Side ipso Papa certum est quod Papa errare potest Respondeo Ipsa congregatio fidelium hic dicitur Ecclesia talis Ecclesia non potest non esse I demaund of what church it is ment when it is saide as here that the church can not erre If of the Pope himselfe it is certaine that the Pope may erre I answere the congregatioÌ„ of the faithfull is here called the church and that church can not chose but continue The spirit of truth is not promised to the Pope nor to his councels but to the faithfull whether they be seuered or assembled and they shall not erre that is they shall not perish in errour as the wicked do but shall either be recouered from their errour or find mercy for their ignorance Phi. May the whole church erre Theo. If wee shoulde graunt you that the whole church can not erre to wit that all the faithfull on the earth at one time can not bee deceiued in any necessarie point of faith but that Christ for his promise sake will preserue truth amongest them what is this to the Pope or his Cardinals or Conuenticles to whom you conuey the holy Ghost by inheritance Phi. Neuer delude vs with ifs but tell vs whether you think the whole church may erre or no. Theo. In matters of faith wee thinke it can not Phi. If the church can not er the Gouernors of the church can not The. Leaue trifling and fall to reasoning The whole church can not erre ergo what Phi. Ergo the Pastors Preachers can not erre Theo. Conclude you all or none Phi. To say no Pastour can erre were apparent madnesse Theo. And the next which is all Pastours can not erre doeth you no pleasure For the Bishop of Rome may erre so may the rest of his mitred and twiforked creatures yet many good Pastours and Preachers keepe fast to the faith Howbeit this conclusion doth not follow vpon my confession The whole church I graunt can not er that is all and euery the faithful can not er therefore all Pastours can not er this is no kind of consequeÌ„t For some of the faithful may be directed vnto truth they no pastors nor preachers many preachers may be preserued from errour they no Bishops many Bishops may be kept in the faith and they not assembled a great number of those that be assembled may bee rightly affected and yet not the most part of them and the greater side may be wel disposed and yet not the Bishop of Rome whom you make to be the moderator and guider of all councels And therefore your argument is very childish The whole church can not erre ergo generall councels can not erre and specially the Pope which later part your best friendes haue not onely refuted as false but also detested for incredible and shamefull flatterie Phi. So say you Theo. So say they Alfonsus that wrote bitterly against Luther when he came to this point dealt plainely in these wordes Non credo aliquem esse adeo impudentem Papae assentatorem vt ei tribuere hoâ— velit vt nec errare possit I can not thinke any man to be so impudent a flatterer of the Pope as to attribute this vnto him that he can not er Phi. Alfonsus hath no such words Theo. You say truth Alfonsus now hath not but Alfonsus had those wordes in his former editions And this commendeth your cunning that you can curtaile the writinges of your fellowes leaue out what you list when you new print them Phi. It was his owne correcting in his seconde edition Theo. Whether it was his doing or yours we care not the wordes remaine in the olde Printes to the manifest condemnation of your follie and flatterie in this behalfe And in his new copies though he qualifie his termes hee holdeth flatly the same opinion Omnis homo errare potest in fide etiam sipapa sit Euerie man may erre in faith euen the Pope himselfe And so you heard your owne gloze before affirme It is certaine the Pope may erre The same is confessed by the best of your side both canonistes and diuines Panormitane saith Concilium potest condemnare Papam de haeresi vt in cap. Si Papa Distinct. 40. vbi dicitur quod Papa potest esse haereticus de haeresi iudicari A councell may condemne the Pope of heresie as appeareth in the 40. Distinct. cap. Si Papa Where it is saide that the Pope may be an heretik iudged of heresie Lyra saith Multi summi Pontifices inuenti sunt apostatasse à side Many Popes haue proued apostataes Augustinus de Ancona Papa est deponendus pro haeresi ad CoÌ„ciliuÌ„ spectat PapaÌ„ in haeresi deprehensum condeÌ„nare vel deponere The Pope may be deposed for heresie A couÌ„cel may condemn or depose the Pope deprehended in heresie Antonius Archbishop of Florence Pro haeresi Papa congruè ipso facto
mentio habetur In the said declaration of Pope Nicolas there is mention made of renouncing the proprietie only but none other right And so Ius aliud a proprietate habuisse potuerunt they might haue some other right besides the proprietie Phi. So they might Theo. As if Christ and his Apostles had been cunning in the ciuill Lawes to renounce the proprietie for a fashion and yet to reserue an interest in those thinges which they seemed to renounce so that they might both keepe and vse them at their willes This exposition that Christ taught men to renounce the proprietie of their goods and reserue the vse is as false and hereticall as the former assertion of Pope Nicolas that Christ and his Apostles renounced their right in al earthly things both in special and common and taught others to do the like Your gloze tumbleth a long while in the myre after he hath confessed the one to be expresly contrarie to the other at length submitteth himselfe to the Church of Rome though hee see not howe to loose the knot Nicolaus the second in a Councel of 114. Bishoppes appointed Berengarius to confesse that The very body of Christ is in trueth and sensually broken and brused in pieces with the teeth of the faithful this confession the Pope receiued allowed and sent to the Bishoppes of Italie Germanie and Fraunce as catholike which your owne gloze saith is a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held Phi. Hee saith it is vnlesse you vnderstand it soberly Lheo And that sober vnderstanding hee graunteth must bee cleane against the text For where the text affirmeth this of y◠very body of Christ excludeth the outward sacrament as the words declare your gloze sayth that vnlesse you vnderstand this of the outward formes of bread and wine and not of the bodie of Christ it is a greater heresie than that of Berengarius and so is it in deede a very palpable a brutish error and can no way bee salued except you take the woords cleane contrarie to themselues which conuinceth the Pope and his whole Councell of a monsterous error Phi. This was Berengarius fault in his confession but not the Popes iudgement or resolution Theo. You would faine wind out if the text it selfe did not hold you fast but there it is sayde that Pope Nicolas and the Synode deliuered this faith and assured it to be Apostolike and Euangelike And therefore if Berengarius erred in subscribing this fourme of confession the Pope his Councell erred in prescribing the same Phi. You take nice aduantages of words which men may soone misse Theo. The heresie of Arius differed but one letter from the truth and yet his doctrine wa◠very blasphemous One word may containe a whole kingdome of impietie Phi. The best is you find not many such ouersightes in the Popes decrees Theo. You print and publish none but such as you thinke your selues able to defend suppressing the rest that might bee chalenged and then you aske vs howe wee prooue that euer the Bishoppe of Rome gaue definitiue sentence against the fayth in open Court or Councel which refuge of yours is very ridiculous For what hath Christes prayer for Peter to doe with definitiue sentences and open Consistories If the Pope may beleeue defende and preach an error what neede wee care whether his sentence bee conclusiue or perswasiue definitiue or interlocutorie And so for the place what skilleth it where and in whose presence the words be written or spoken if they be certainely his And where you thinke it maketh much for the Bishoppe of Rome that wee can not proue these errors of Popes to haue beene definitiuely pronounced in their publike Consistories if that were true as it is not you shew your selues to be but wranglers For wee can name an infinite number of Bishoppes and Churches that neuer erred in this speciall precise maner which you propose Howe prooue you that euer the Bishops of Yorke or Durham in England of Poycters or Lions in Fraunce of Valeria or Carduba in Spaine of Rauennas or Rhegium in Italie of Corinth or Athens in Greece of Miletus or Sardis in Asia gaue definitiue sentence against the faith in their publike consistories A thousande others I coulde obiect on whom that thing shall neuer bee fastened which you crake can not be proued by the Bishop of Rome Heretikes haue been euer conuinced by their confessions writings not by their definitiue sentences or iudiciall proceedings And therefore if Popes haue erred in writing and teaching they were as right heretikes as euer were Arius Sabellius Nestorius Eutiches and such like which neuer gaue definitiue sentēce against the faith in Courts and Consistories but onely taught or wrate against the truth Phi. Though one or two Bishops of Rome were deceiued they erred not so often there as in other places Theo. Set Constantinople aside and in no one See did the bishops erre oftener than in Rome but this is not our marke If one or two haue erred why may not others Yea though none of them had erred heretofore yet that which is possible may happen hereafter and so long they can be no absolute iudges of trueth Phi. If they might erre they were no fit iudges of faith but because their Tribunall is the highest that is in the Church they must therfore be free from error Theo. You euer proue that which we doubt of by y◠which is more doubtful We denie the Popes Tribunal to bee the highest that is in the church Prouinciall and generall Councels by the Canons are aboue him And in matters of faith the highest Court that is in earth may misse therfore no man is bound to Pastor Prelate or councel farther than their decrees be coherēt agreeable with the faith For against God we owe neither audience nor obedience vnto the perswasions or precepts of any men Phi. No question we must as well in faith as in manners obey rather God than man and therefore if the iudgements of bishops and conclusions of Councels might be repugnant to the word of God duetie bindeth vs to preferre the preceptes of God before the pleasures of men but it is not possible that God should leaue his Church without direction and directed shee can not bee but by iudgement and in giuing iudgement the head must be highest and so the soundest left that peruert the rest and endanger the whole bodie Theo. The church of Christ neuer was nor euer shall bee without direction but that direction proceedeth from the word and spirit of Christ not from the courts and Consistories of Popes Assemblees of learned Bishoppes voyd of pride and strife are good helpes to trie the faith and moderate the discipline of the Church and the greater the better yet the direction of Gods holy Spirite and infallible determination of trueth is not annexed to any certaine places Persons or numbers neither can you of a promise which is common to all establish a priuate Tribunall for one man from the which the spirit of
Father and the Sonne to proceede both from the Father and the Sonne For the Sonne saith when the spirit of trueth coÌ„meth which proceedeth from the father Where he teacheth vs the spirit to be his also because himselfe is trueth And that the holy ghost proceedeth likewise from the sonne the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles doeth deliuer vnto vs. For Esay sayth of the sonne Hee shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the spirit of his lippes he shal slea the wicked Of whom the Apostle also sayth Whom the Lord Iesus shall slea with the spirit of his mouth Whome the onely Sonne of God declaring to bee the Spirite of his mouth breathing on his Disciples after his resurrection sayth receiue ye the holy Ghost And Iohn in his Reuelation sayth that out of the mouth of the Lorde Iesu him-selfe there proceeded a sharpe two edged swoorde Hee therefore is the Spirit of his mouth hee is the sword which proceedeth out of his mouth And againe By many testimonies of the diuine Scriptures it is prooued that he is the spirite of the father and the sonne which is properly called in the Trinitie the holy ghost And that he proceedeth from both it is thus proued because the sonne himselfe saith the spirit of trueth proceedeth from the father And when he was risen from death and appeared to his disciples he breathed on them and sayd Receiue ye the holy ghost to shewe that the spirit proceeded from him also And that spirit is the vertue which came from him as we read in the gospel and healed all men What you thinke of these places we know not but sure we are S. Augustine himselfe sayth of these the like Cum per Scripturarum sanctarum testimonia docuissem de vtroque procedere Spiritum sanctum When I had shewed by the testimonies of the Holy scriptures that the holy ghost proceedeth froÌ„ both the father the sonne And if it bee the naturall and distinct proprietie of the Spirite to proceede as it is of the sonne to bee begotten which I winne you will not denie then is it as euident by the Scriptures that the holy Ghost proceedeth from the Father and the sonne as it is that the sonne was begotten of the father For as the second person in Trinitie was begotten of him whose sonne hee is so the thirde Person proceeded from them whose spirite hee is but hee is the Spirite of them both as the Scriptures expressely witnes Ergo hee proceeded from them both Phi. The doctrine is true but the scripture is not expresse Theo. What meane you by your expresse scripture Phi. Those very woordes He proceedeth from them both are not found in the scriptures Theo. Alas good Sirs is that your quarrell Doe the scriptures I pray you consist in spelling or in vnderstanding Neuer read you what S. Hierom sayth Nec putemus in verbis ScripturaruÌ„ Euangelium esse sed in sensu non in superficie sed in medulla non in sermonum folijs sed in radice rationis Let vs not thinke the Gospell to lie in the words of the scriptures but in the sense not in the rind but in the pith not in the leaues of speech but in the ground of reason truth If by expresse scripture you meane the plaine 〈◊〉 sense of the word of God we haue euident infallible proofes thence for the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father the sonne But if you sticke on the syllables letters which we speake you doe but wrangle with vs as the Arias did with the Nicene fathers Expostulating why the Bishops that met at Nice vsed these words substance consubstaÌ„tial which were nowhere found in the Scriptures our answere to you shal be the same that theirs was to them These words though they be not found in the Scriptures yet haue they the same meaning and sense which the Scriptures containe And that we count to be expresse scripture For otherwise as Hilarie saith Al heretiks speake Scriptures without sense the diuell himself as Hierom noâ—eth hath spoken some things out of the scriptures but that as they both witnes in the very next words The scriptures coÌ„sist not in reading but in vnderstanding And yet I see no cause why this point should be denied to be expresse Scripture for so much as S. Iohn describing the son of God with a sharpe two edged â—word proceeding out of his mouth which is the rod of his mouth wherewith he shal smite the earth the spirit of his lips wherewith hee shall slea the wicked as Esay prophesied hee should and Paul declareth hee would vseth the very same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 twise which our Sauior before spake of his father 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the spirit which proceedeth froÌ„ the father So that you were fouly ouerseene when you obiected this point of our christian faith as wanting expresse scripture Phi. If you take not only the words but also the sense â—or scripture we will not greatly gainesay but all points of faith may be deriued out of these words or out of the sense of that which is written The. Deriued as you do pardoÌ„s pilgrimages penaÌ„ces purgatory But we say that al points of faith must be plainly concluded or necessarily collected by that which is writteÌ„ And for our so saying we haue not only the scriptures fathers but also your selues which being so often required vrged to shewe what one point of faith the primatiue church of Christ beleeued wtout the scriptures could neuer shew any Phi. We could shew many if that needed we wer disposed The. I know not what accoÌ„pt you make of it but to our simple conceiuing it is the groundwork of al religioÌ„ crazeth the very heart of your vnwritten verities And if to satisfie the people of God disburden your selues of an errour you be not all this while disposed to doe what you can we must leaue you for curious and daintie men and thinke you can not Phi. Tertullian was of that minde that we are when he willed the christians not to appeale to the scriptures for the triall of their faith His words are Ergo non est ad scripturas prouocandum nec in ijs constituendum certamen in quibus aut nulla aut incerta victoria est We must therefore not appeale to the Scriptures nor place the trial of our cause in those writings in which the victorie is either none or not sure Theo. You do both the truth and Tertullian wrong TertulliaÌ„ doth not say that in matters of faith some things should be beleeued wtout the Scriptures no man is flatter against that than Tertullian in this very booke which you bring but he would not haue the heretikes of his time chalenged nor brought to the Scriptures because they receiued not the books as
corporis quod monemus in ore cum loquimur signa vtique rerum dantur non res ipsae proferuntur propterea translato verbo linguam appellauit quaÌ„libet signorum prolationem priusquaÌ„ intelligantur Because by the toung I mean that part of the body which we moue in our mouthes when we speak the signes of things are deliuered not the things themselues therefore the Apostle to the Corinthes by a kind of translation calleth any vttering of signes or words before they be vnderstood a toungue Phi. In deed S. Paul speaketh of tongues not vnderstood when he saith they neither profite nor edifie but hee that thinketh S. Paul speaking of edification of mans mind or vnderstanding meaneth the vnderstanding of the words onely is fouly deceiued For what is a child of fiue or six yeres old edified or increased in knowledge by his Pater noster in english It is the sense therefore which euery man can not haue neither in English nor latin the knowledge whereof properly and rightly edifieth to instruction and the knowledge of the words only often edifieth neuer a whit somtimes buildeth to error destructioÌ„ as it is plain in al heretikes many curious peâ—sons besides Phi. As we should shewe our selues to be mad if we should say that English prayers doe edifie children before they come to the yeares of discretion or that the very hearing of their mother tongue doth sufficiently instruct English men though the sense of that which is spoken be neuer so darke obscure parabolicall and mysticall for then we shoulde crosse the very Principles of nature and the whole discourse of the Apostle who mainely teacheth that no man is edified except he vnderstande and meaneth by vnderstanding both the knoweledge of the words that enter our eares of the sense that affecteth our hearts so are you woorse than mad to defend that men may be edified by speach whereof they vnderstand not so much as one word to confute so shamefull an absurditie we neede neither Scriptures nor Fathers Children of sixe yeares old wil tell you they bee no whit the better for all your paines if they vnderstand not your wordes What will you not say that wil say this And when you that be masters in Israel are so blinde how great must the blindnesse of others be that take their light from you You resist not onely God and his trueth but you force your owne tongues to speake against your owne heartes For say your selues if a man speake Welch or Irish to you that vnderstand it not what will it profit you or which way can you be edified by it Phi. Welch or Irish would do vs no good but Greeke or Hebrewe would Theo. What difference between Hebrew and Irish to him that vnderstandeth a word of neither When the heart conceiueth not the sense of the words nor so much as distinguisheth the tongue whether it be Hebrewe or Irish for lack of knowledge howe can the Hebrewe or greeke tongue though the one bee sacred and the other learned instruct the hearer or helpe his vnderstanding more than Welch or Irish can The Apostles Rule If I come to you speaking with tongues not vnderstood what shall I profit you â—s generally true of all tongues Nemo edificatur audiendo quod non intelligit No man saith Augustine is edified with hearing that which he vnderstandeth not Linguas loquens seipsum edificat quod quideÌ„ fieri non potest nisi quae loquatur norit He that speaketh with tongues edifieth himselfe which is not possible except he knowe what hee saith as Chrysostome noteth And Ambrose Si vtique ad edificandum Ecclesiam conuenitis ea dici debent quae intelligant audientes If you come together to edifie the Church those thinges must bee spoken which the hearers may vnderstand If then there bee no edification where nothing is vnderstood a strange tongue bee it Hebrewe Greeke Welche or Irish cannot edifie the hearer that is ignorant of them by reason the heart perceiueth not the words much lesse the sense of that which is spoken Phi. We say the simple people and many one that thinke themselues some body vnderstand as litle of the sense of diuers Psalmes lessons and Oraisons in the vulgar toung as if they were in Latine Theo. And we say you do nothing now but cauill which in matters of trueth is not tolerable For what if the vulgar sort vnderstand not the perfect sense of euery verse or worde that is read in the Church will you thence inferre that the diuine seruice in a knowen tongue doth not edifiâ— Your selues steppe out the prowdest of you vnderstand not euery line letter that is written in the old New Testament Do the Scriptures therefore not edifie or blame you the holy Ghost for writing them because you doe not euery where reach to the depth of them What teacher can be so plaine but in debating matters of faith and saluation he shall be many times forced to passe the capacity of rude ignorant men Wil you therefore conclude against S. Paul that neither Prophets nor Preachers edifie In the epistles and so no doubt sermons of Paul himselfe there are and were some things hard to be vnderstoode Were the Preachings and writings therefore oâ— the Apostle vnprofitable Phi. We reason against your seruice not against the Scriptures Theo. As though the Psalmes and lessons in our seruice were not partes of the sacred Scriptures If therfore our diuine seruice do not edifie in respect of the psalms and lessons there song and read then the Scriptures themselues do not edifie and consequently S. Paul was ouershot when hee saide whatsoeuer things are written were written for our instruction and the Holy Ghost deceiued when he witnessed that the whole Scripture is profitable to teach correct and instruct Or if the spirite of God be trueth as there is no question he is then are you voide both of his spirite and of trueth also to say that diuers psalms and lessons do not edifie Phi. You be very snappish we speak of your praiers as well as of the Psalmes and lessons Neither doe we say the Psalmes and lessons do not edifie but yâ— the simple vnderstand not diuers of them no more than if they were in Latine Theo. They must be very simple that vnderstand not our praiers They containe nothing besides the confession of our sinnes to god the rendring of thankes for his graces and mercies bestowed on vs in Christ his sonne and the asking of such things at his hands as his wisedome seeth to be needfull and his goodnesse thinketh expedient for vs and all mankind And these things if any man vnderstand not being distinctly and daily pronounced in his mother tongue you may begge him for a naturall and doe him no wrong As for the Psalmes and Lessons since they be Gods not ours the question must not
after the same sort the blood of christ euen so the sacrament of faith meaning thereby baptisme is saith We he buried saith Paul with christ through baptism into his death Hâ— saith not we signifie that his burial but he saith plainly we 〈…〉 The sacrameÌ„t of so great a thing he would not cal but by the 〈…〉 thing it self Upon this verie ground be concluded as you heard 〈…〉 Lâ—â—d doubted not not to say this my body when he gaue the signe of his body What maâ—uell then if the catholike Fathers vsed often the names of the body blood of Christ where the materiall elementes of bread and wine must be vnderstood since this is the certaine rule of al sacraments and the common order of all ancient diuines writing of the Lordes supper to call the giftes proposed at the Lordes table the body and blood of Christ. The wilfull contempt of which obseruation hath miserably snared and hampered you and your fellowes euerie where referring and forcing that to the naturall fleshe of Christ which by the learned and godly fathers was spoken and ment of the visible signes called by the names of the body and blood of Christ. The second thing that you sticke at is the substance of bread which we say remaineth and abideth as well after consecration as before You wil haue it either vanish to nothing or else to bee turned and conuerted into the very fleshe of Christ there present God maÌ„ vnder the whitenes roundnes such like shewes appearances of bread left only to content the sight and palate least the raw flesh of Christ should displease your eyes or offend your tast This is your doctrine and this we say is not catholike The church of Christ neuer held that the substance of bread perished or ceased after consecration it is a late deuise you can bring no father that is ancient for this assertion they neuer taught they neuer heard they neuer dreampt any such thinges They taught that the mysticall signes were creatures well knowen not straunge and miraculous accidentes that the substance of bread was not changed but remained still after consecration and this they taught in as plaine words as heart can imagine or tongue expresse lette the Reader bee iudge if I â—aye not the truth Gelasius an ancient Bishop of Rome for his antiquitie reuerenced of vs for his place not to be refused of you writeth thus against Eutiches The sacraments which we receiue of the body blood of Christ are a diuine thing by them are we made partakers of the diuine nature yet for all that ceaseth not the substance or nature of bread wine to be Theodoret The mystical signes do not after sanctification depart from their own nature for they remaine in their former substance figure forme Ambrose Thou camest to the altar â—awest the sacraments theron wonderest at the very creature yet it is a â—olemn known creature Ireneus Christ counseling or willing his disciples to offer to God the first fruits of those creatures tooke that bread which is a creature gaue thankes saying this is my body We must therefore in all thinges be found thankefull to God the creator offering the first fruits of those creatures which be his and this oblation the Church onely maketh in puritie to the creatour offering to him of his own creatures with thankes giuing Origen The Lords bread according to the material partes thereof goeth into the belly and thence to the draught so that it is not the matter of breade that doeth proâ—itte the râ—ceiuer but the worde rehearsed ouer it Epiphanius That which our Sauiour our tooke in his hand and saide this is my body wee see to bee neither proportional nor like to his image in flesh nor his inuisible Deity for this is of a round figure hath no power of sense but our Lord wee knowe to bee wholy sense wholy sensitiue Cyprian Since the Lord said do this in my remembraÌ„ce this is my flesh this is my blood as often as with these words this faith we do that he did this substantial bread cup sanctified with a solemn blessing is profiâ—able for the life safegard of the whole man being both a medicine to heal our infirmities a sacrifice to clense our iniquities Chrysostom After coÌ„secration it is deliuered from the name of bread reputed worthy to be called the Lords body nothwithstanding the nature of bread still remaine Austen These things are therefore called Sacramentes because in them one thing is seen an other thing vnderstood That which is seen speciem habet corporalem hath a corporal shape or kind that which is vnderstood hath a spiritual fruit This is of al other a miserable seruitude of the soule to mistake the signes for the things themselues not to be able to lift vp the eye of the minde aboue the corporall creature to behold the light that is eternall The councell of Constantinople Christ commaunded the whole substaunce of breade chosen for his image to bee set on his table least if it resembled the shape of a man idolatrie might bee committed Bertram The signes as touching the substances of the creatures are the same after consecration which they were before Can you looke for plainer or directer witnesses Do they not all ioyne together in one profession and succession of truth that the mysticall signes after consecration be knowen corporal and senselesse creatures abiding in their proper and former yea their whole nature and substance Be not these wordes significant and pregnant directly conâ—uting your reall inclosing and corporall eaâ—ing of Christ vnder the shewes and accidentes of bread and wine The third thing that I saide was to bee considered in the elementes of bread and wine is their power and operation For since the substance of the creatures is not chaunged the signes coulde not iustly beare the names of the thinges them-selues except â—â—e vertue power and â—ffect of Christs fleshe and bloode were adioyned to them and vnited with them after a secrete and vnspeakable manner by the working of the holy Ghost in such sort that whosoeuer duelie receiueth the signe is vndoubtedly partaker of the grace offered vnto all but inioyed onely by those that with fayth and repentance clense the inward man from that corruption of flesh spirit which Christ abhorreth Cyprian of Sacraments in generall writeth thus To the elements once sanctified not now their owne nature giueth effect but the diuine vertue worketh in them more mightily the trueth is present with the signe and the spirit with the Sacrament so that the worthines of the grace appeareth by the verie efficiencie of the things Of the Lordes Supper in speciall thus he saith b There is giuen the foode of immortalitie differing from commoÌ„ meates Corporalis substantiae etmens speciem retaining the kind or truth
for the studie of diuinitie is as deepely layed as theirs our diligence rather more than theirs our time both of age and studie more complete than theirs cōmonly can bee our order methode course of diuinitie much more profitable than theirs we haue moe disputations lessons conferences examinations repetitions instructions catechizings resolutions of cases both of conscience and controuersie methodes and manners to proceede to the conuersion of the deceiued and such like exercises in our two Colleges thā are in their two Vniuersities cōtayning neere hand 30. goodly Colleges As for the Masters professors of our Colleges specially the Romane readers we may be bold to say They be in all kind the most choyse and cunning men of Christendom for vertue learning c. Nowe for that part of education which pertayneth to Christian life manners our chiefe endeuour is in both the Colleges to breede in our scholers deuotion c. Which is done by diuers spirituall exercises as dayly examinations of their consciences often communicating or receiuing the. B. Sacrament much praying continuall hearing and meditation of holy things Phi. Can you in all this charge him with a lye Theo. Whether it bee true or false that he saith we neither care nor come to discusse The comparison of wits ages and exercises would rather beseeme boyes in the schoole than diuines in the Church this vaunting of vertue learning oftē communicating much praying continuall meditation of holy thinges is fitte for Pharisees vnfit for Christians Better is sayth Austen an humble confession in doing euill than a proud vaunt in doing well Phi. To speake truth is no vaunt Theo. To speake trueth in the commendation of your selues is the greatest pride you can shewe Let an other man prayse thee sayth Salomon and not thine owne mouth But this is the iust reward of your error that you take notable paynes to please your selues with an inward perswasion of your owne worthines to be reuerenced of others for the deepenes of your learning holines of your liues which desire of glorie so possesseth your heads that when other heraults fayle you you sticke not openly to the whole world to blaze your owne vertues Phi. We neuer spake but forced that in the necessarie defence of our selues Theo. Who forced Campion to write backe to Rome not only what admiration but what veneration a worde fitter for Saints than friers himselfe and his bande of Iesuites had gotten in England by their singular learning and holines The Priests saith hee of our societie they excelling in knowledge and sanctitie haue raysed so great an opinion of our order that the veneratiō which the Catholiques yeeld vs I thinke not good to be spokē but fearefully The framer of your Apologie what occasion had hee to braue both Uniuersities in such sort as he doth as well with the scholasticall as spiritual exercises of your two Colleges but only that he would haue the Iesuites waxe famous for the greatnes of their skill and purenes of their liues that the chiefest praise might redound to him selfe and others the Masters and Gouernours of those two Colleges Phi. We were charged in open proclamation that we liued contrary to the lawes of God and the Realme Theo. And doth your dayly disputing or much praying discharge you from that Phi. It sheweth our domesticall conuersation to be honest and orderly Theo. That is nothing to this purpose The Princes Edict did not meane your priuate disputatiōs or deuotions of which you cracke but obiected vnto you that you trayned vp your scholers in false and erroneous doctrine and vsed them to lewde and vngodly purposes as to withdrawe the people from their obedience to God and the Magistrate Phi. Let your Edict meane what it will our Apologie cleareth vs from all that was vntruely surmised against vs and I am right glad you haue seene the booke for there shall you find vs sufficiently proued to be both good subiects and good Catholiques notwithstanding your often and earnest inuectiues to the contrary Theo. If facing and cracking will doe the deede the conquest is yours Your defender hath fraighted his booke with so many solemne protestations patheticall exclamations and confident asseuerations but to the wiser sort that are led with euident trueth not with eloquent speach vnlesse you make some better demonstration of your integritie to God and your Prince than I yet see you bee like to goe neither for good subiects nor for good Catholiques Phi. Can you wish for a better than our Apologie Theo. I neuer mette with a worse Phi. What doth it lacke Theo. Not wordes they be copious curious enough but I neuer sawe fewer or weaker proofes Phi. What one poynt is there left vnproued Theo. Nay what one thing haue you iustly proued Phi. Come to the parts The first chapter giueth the reasons of our leauing this lande and liuing beyonde the seas what say you to those bee they not euident be they not sufficient Theo. Repeate them your selfe lest I chaunce to misse them Phi. The vniuersall Lacke of the Soueraigne sacrifice and Sacraments Catholiquely ministred without which the soule of man dyeth as the body doeth without corporall foode this constraint to the contrary seruices whereby men perish euerlastingly this intollerable othe repugnant to God the Church her Maiesties honour and all mens consciences and the dayly dangers disgraces vexations feares imprisonments empouerishments despites which they must suffer and the raylings and blasphemies against Gods Sacraments Saints Ministers and all holies which they are forced to heare in our Countrie are the onely causes why so many of vs are departed out of our naturall Countrey and doe absent our selues so long from that place where we had our being birth and bringing vp These they be what fault find you with them Theo. The selfe same that I finde with the rest of your Apologie You say what you list and neuer offer to proue that you say your bare word is your best argument and other authoritie than your owne you produce not Phi. The matter is so manifest that it needeth no proofe Theo. That presumption is so foolish that it needeth no refuter Phi. If you doubt or deny them wee bee readie to proue them Theo. That must you first doe before wee refell them Yet lest you should glorie too much of your paynted sheath the replie to your first chapter may shortly bee this The sacrifice which Christ offered on the crosse for the sinnes of the worlde wee beleeue with all our heartes and reuerence with all our might accounting the same to bee perfect without wanting eternall without renewing and this is our Soueraigne sacrifice The Lordes table which himselfe ordeined to bee the memoriall of his death and passion wee keepe and continue in that maner and forme that hee first prescribed and this may bee called and is a sacrifice both in respect of the thankes there giuen to God
wils you be deceiued not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God which maketh those willing at last which were vnwilling at first Did the Niniuites repent against their willes because they did it at the compulsion of their king What needed the kings expresse commandement that all men should humbly submit themselues to God but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message had they not bene terrified by the kings edict This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder yet being once cōpelled to come in they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter against their willes When Petilian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue S. Austen replieth To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced but yet by Gods iustice or rather mercy The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you but forbidden to doe euill Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes are they not those which beare the sworde as Paul speaketh not without cause being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill Who list to be farther satisfied that Christian Princes may compel their subiects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word and punish the refusers let him read at large the places aboue cited or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God and kept in your Crocodiles teares Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes much easier than that which your selues practised on others neither is this our question what rites you consented vnto but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Princes authoritie let him and his forefathers assent to what they list except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion but goeth now for a Romish recognisance Phi. Our griefe of heart is much encreased either when we looke into other States and Countries as Germania Suitzerland Suecia Boemia and the like where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres yet lightly none bee forced so but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie Canton towne Church or Parish yet they may haue it neere them in an other as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places adioyning for the Catholique seruice in their dominions So did Constantius the Arian Emperour Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria which Valens God plagued afterward because he would not suffer the same at Antioche Valentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan Theo. Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme which God in plaine words detesteth and with sore plagues reuengeth Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were reproued of Elias for that error He did not say why permit you not those that will to the Lord those that list to Baal but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs If the Lord be God follow him forsaking al other if Baal be God get you after him Since then it is confessed on both partes yours and ours that there can bee no God saue the Lord and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie but is so ielous of it that hee wil be serued and onely serued with all our heart mind and strength these things I say being out of question I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE with establishing two religions in one Realme the first authorized by Christ bequeathed in his testament to the Church the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures For if God be trueth they which presume to worship him with lies as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe serue nowe not God but the deuill a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate What are saith Vincentius strange Gods but strange errors which the scriptures so cal figuratiuely for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God saue that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe It is the vilest basest kinde of idolatrie when men worship their owne fansies obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine Then may not Princes winke at corrupt vitious religion which is an inward ghostly worship of Idoles seeing no man therefore no Prince can serue two masters the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ in respect of their royall vocation consisteth in making lawes for Christ which if they doe likewise for Antichrist it can not be salued but that they serue God and Mammon or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersarie Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed his sonne refused his sacraments prophaned his word exiled and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith haruest of sinne murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates who must thinke that silence prouoketh sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor which
hide the matter if it would be your holy father falsified the couÌ„cel of Nice to serue his ambitioÌ„ the Bishops of Africa by common coÌ„sent both stoutly rightly withstood him Phi. Well Theophilus the truth of these things God knoweth I will defend no more than I may with honestie The. You were not best God be thanked mens eies are open you can not blind theÌ„ with such canuisadoes But I wil go forward Theodorete is the next who was one of those that tooke part with Iohn of Antioch against Cyrill in the first Councell of Ephesus and both charged him with heresie and deposed him notwithstanding he supplied the place of Coelestinus Bishoppe of Rome Phi. Theodorete did this in a faction to serue other mens humors Theo. I grant it was a priuate grudge between the two Patriarks that the Bishop of Antioch with whom Theodoret came sought vnlawfull meanes to be reuenged of Cyril but yet this Theodoret the rest did Phi. It skilleth not what they did so long as their doings were condemned by two general Councels theÌ„selues glad to reuoke their own acts Theo. In that they deposed Cyrillus Memnon against al order and without iust cause vpon stomake defamed the Chapters as heretical which the councel of Ephesus by Cyrils direction proposed against Nestorius they were worthily reproued wheÌ„ choler was a litle digested both sides did wisely to relent remit al former offeÌ„ces but what couÌ„cel did euer obiect this to theÌ„ as a fault that they resisted the popes deputie Nay rather the rest of the bishops that held with Cyril when the letters of Theodosius came wherein he approued the deposition as wel of Cyril Memnon as of Nestorius not only prescribed limited the Popes Legate others that were sent in Embassage to the Prince what they should do but added this threatning Scire auteÌ„ volumus vestraÌ„ sanctitateÌ„ quod si quid horuÌ„ a vobis contemptuÌ„ fuerit neque sancta Synodus acta habebit rata neque vos coÌ„munionis sinet esse participes We giue your holines to vnderstand that if any of these things which we haue appointed you be omitted by you neither will this holy Synod ratifie your acts nor receiue you to the coÌ„munion If you respect not those that impugned Cyril I shew you that the Popes legate was both coÌ„manded menaced by those which assisted Cyril whom you can not choose but allow By the which it is euident that the lawful general couÌ„cel of Ephesus thought they might and sayd they would not only controle but euen excoÌ„municate the popes vicegerent if he did not that which was enioyned him by the Synode The great Councel of Chalcedon gaue the Bishop of Constantinople equall priuileges with the Bishop of Rome when those that represented the person of Leo the next day desired of the noble men that sate there as iudges moderators that the matter might be brought about againe put to voices pretending that it was not orderly past the councel that in the absence of the Popes Legats had made this decree in their presence confirmed the same they contradicting doing what they could for their liues to withstand it Phi. If they were not present the decree was not good Theo. There you beguile your self If the bishop of Rome were not called the Councell was not generall but though neither he nor his Legates were present the decree might be good Phi. How proue you they were absent Theo. Their own words to the Iudges be so Paschasinus Lucentius Vicegerents to the See Apostolike saide If it please your highnes we haue somwhat to say to you The most glorious Iudges answered say what you wil. Paschasinus Lucentius sayd yesterday after your H. were risen we followed your steps there were certaine things decreed as we heare which we think were done besides the order Canons of the church We beseech you therfore that your excellencies would coÌ„mand the same to be red again that the whole couÌ„cel or coÌ„panie may see whether it were rightly or disorderly done The most glorious Iudges answered If any thing were decreed after our departure let it be read againe And before the reading Aetius the Archdeacon of Constantinople said The maner is in Synods after the chiefest points are coÌ„cluded to dispatch such other things as be needful We had somwhat to do for the church of Costantinople We praied the bishops that came froÌ„ Rome that they would stay communicate with vs. They refused saying we may not we are otherwise charged We acquainted your honors with it you willed that this holy couÌ„cel should coÌ„sider of it Your highnes then departing the Bishops that are here conferring of a coÌ„mon cause required this to be done And here they are It was not done in secrete nor by stealth but orderly and lawfully They were absent as you see because they were required refused the Councel proceeded in their absence and decreed without them on this wise Following euery where the steps of the sacred fathers we determine decree the selfe same thing which they did for the priuiledges of the most holy church of ConstaÌ„tinople being new Rome Our father 's not without good aduise gaue to the throne of elder Rome the chiefest place of honor because that city raigned or was the Seat of the kingdome And the hundred fifty Bishops which were gathered vnder Theodosius the â—lder in the royal city of Constantinople moued with the same consideration bestowed equal like priuileges on the most holy throne of new Rome hauing great reason to determine that the Citie which is now honored with the Empire and Senate should enioie equal priuiledges with the elder Royall Citie of Rome and in Ecclesiasticall affaires bee aduanced as the other beeing the second after her Phi. Neither Leo nor his Legates would euer consent to this decree Theo. I care not for that First the iudgement opinion of the couÌ„cel of Chalcedon is cleare with vs that the chiefest honour and highest place was allotted the Bishop of Rome not as Christes Uicar nor as Peters successour but in regard of his citie that was Imperiall Next the same consideration now seruing them to aduaunce Constantinople which moued their fathers to preferre Rome they thought it lawfull for them to make the Bishop of Constantinople equall with the Bishop of Rome and so they did notwithstanding the Legats of Leo laboured tooth and nayle to preuent the same Phi. They placed the Bishop of Constantinople next after the Bishoppe of Rome not in equall degree with him Theo. The Bishop of Rome kept his place which was first in order among the Patriarkes when they went in couÌ„cell and next after him was the Bishop of Constantinople to sit before the Patriarkes of Alexandria and Antioche but in playne termes the Councell of Chalcedon gaue the See of
not carnal hir delights are not outward in flesh but inward in grace the prophet good mā had no leasure to thinke on your farms demeans reuenues This promise must be common to the faithfull not priuat to your cloisterers which in earthly things plied the bottle so fast that they suckt their nurces dry No remedy you must needs yeeld vs that christiā princes in respect of their office not of their riches haue receiued an expresse commandemēt from God to shew thēselues nurces to his church Now nurces by nature must prouide food for their infants defend them from dāger ergo kings queenes in the new testamēt are boūd to tēder the church of Christ by their princely power publik lawes to defend the same from infection of heresies inuasion of schisms all other apparent corruptions of faith good maners Who saith S. Aug. being in his right wits wil say to christiā kings take you no care who defēdeth or impugneth in your realms the church of christ your master Let it not pertain to you who lift to be religious or sacrilegious within your kingdōs And left he should seem skāt resolued in this opinion he biddeth opē defiāce to the Donatists in these words Cry thus if you dare let murders be punished let adulteries be punished let other degrees of lust sinne be punished only sacrileges that is cōtēpt of God his truth or his church we wil not haue punished by princes lawes And againe Will the Donatists though they were cōuinced of a sacrilegious schisme say that it belongeth not to the princes power to correct or punish such things Is it because such powers do not stretch to corrupt false religiō But christiā emperors persecute the Pagās doth that displease thē The works of the flesh Paul nūbreth these fornicatiō vncleanes strife dissentiō heresie drunkēnes such other What thinke these mē may the crime of idolatry be iustly reuēged by the magistrate wel if that like them not why cōfesse they that witches be rightly punished by the rigor of princes lawes will not agnise that heretikes schismatikes may bee repressed by the same seeing Paul doth rehearse them togither with other fruites of iniquity Will they reply that earthly powers are not to medle with such matters of religion To what end then beareth he the sword which is called Gods minister seruing to punish malefactors Certainly Princes c. If this learned father can not fray you from reuiuing the frantick error of the Donatists against the Princes power in matters of religion I trust you will somwhat reuerence the precept which our Sauior in his Gospell gaue the magistrate when he had the first sort of ghestes to be brought to the great supper the second to be forced Go sayth he forth into the wayes and hedges Compell thē to come in that mine house may be filled Wee take wayes sayth Austen for heresies hedges for schismes because wayes in this place signifie the diuersenes and hedges the peruersenes of opinions House God hath none but his house of prayer neither table beside the Lords table So that this seruant is expressely charged to Compel them from heresies and schismes to the confession of truth consent of prayer and communion of the Lordes table To performe this Christ hath left no seruant but the minister or the magistrat no meanes saue the word or the sword To compell heretiks and schismatiks neither is it possible for the preacher if he would nor lawful if he could he lacketh both meanes and leaue to constraine them His calling is with patience to teach not with violence to force to feede not to stryke to reproue with tongue not to subdue with hand Only the Prince beareth the sword which can and may compell recusants and therefore Bishops since they be flatly forbidden to Rayne must not meddle with the material sword being the chiefest part strength of an earthly kingdom neither ought any to draw the sword but he that holdeth it in Gods stead to reward and reuenge Ergo these wordes Compell them to come in that mine house may be filled were spoken to Christian Princes and are to them both a warrant and a charge to represse schismes and heresies with their Princely power which they receiued from aboue cheefly to maintaine Gods glorie by causing the bands of vnitie to be preserued in the Church and the rules of fayth obserued To the same purpose S. Austen in many places alleageth this parable The Lord himself sayth he willed the ghests first to be brought then to be forced What meaneth he by this Compell them to come when as he sayd of the first bring them If he ment they should be compelled by terror of miracles then might the first sort of ghests which saw many diuine wonders be rather thought to be forced but if by the power which the Church receaued at Gods hand in due time through the religion faith of kings those that are found in high wayes hedges that is in heresies schismes must be compelled to come let them not mislike that they be forced This cōmaunding by Princely power occasioneth many to be saued which though they be violently brought to the feast of the great householder and compelled to come yet being within they find cause to reioyce that they did enter for both sorts of commers as well violently forced as willingly brought the Lord fortold hath fulfilled Therfore let earthly princes serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ wherby mē may be forced to come to the great holy banquet yea by banishments other losses let their subiects begin to weigh with themselues what why they suffer learne to prefer the Scriptures which they read before the reportes and cauils of mē I thinke it superfluous to staie longer in confirming so manifest a truth He that is of God heareth the words of God he that impugneth them quarreleth not with Princes which yet is no small offence but with him by whom Princes raigne whose wisedom may not easily be neglected nor will resisted If you deny that this is the Princes charge to see the law of God fully executed his Sonne rightly serued his spouse safely nourced his house timely filled his enemies duely punished you must counteruaile that which Moses prescribed Dauid required Esay prophesied Paul witnessed Christ commaunded with some better sounder authority than theirs is If you grant so much we wil aske no more the Princes duety to God once cōfessed the rest shal quickly be concluded Phi. In a sense it is true that you say Theo. It is simply true that I say for in your owne iudgement may the Christian faith be freely permitted publikely receiued in kingdoms common wealthes Phi. No doubt Theo. May godly discipline be likewise planted and preserued amongest men and the disturbers and neglecters of it repressed and ordered
part Theo. Faith is the foundation of the church why then should not faith be a part of the church Phi. The Church consisteth of persons not of thinges Men are the church saith S. Augustine Againe The church that is the people of God throughout all nations Theo. I doe not deny the church to bee many times taken for the faithfull on earth but I adde that the graces mysteries and word of God bee contained in the Church and without them the Persons are no Church Our bodies and soules doe not make vs members of Christ but our faith and obedience By Baptisme not by birth doe we Put on Christ and grace not meates establish our heartes They bee the sonnes of God that he led by the spirit of God And if any man haue not the spirit of Christ the same is no member of his Phi. All this is true Theo. The church then consisteth not of men but of faithfull men and they bee the Church not in respect of flesh and blood which came from earth but of trueth and grace which came from heauen Phi. I graunt Theo. Ergo the perfection of Gods giftes the communion of his graces and direction of his word are the verie life and soule of his Church so within the compasse of the church are comprised not onely the persons that bee earthly but also the things that be heauenly whereby God gathereth preserueth and sanctifieth his Church Phi. What doth this helpe you Theo. That when wee saie with S. Ambrose Imperator bonus intra Ecclesiam non supra Ecclesiam est A good Emperour is within the Church not aboue the Church you can conclude nothing out of these words against vs. Phi. Can we not If good Princes bee not aboue the church ergo they be not aboue the prelats pillours of the church Theo. That is no consequent Phi. Why not Theo. By the Church are ment sometimes the places somtimes the persons sometime the things that be cheefely required in the Church Of the place S. Austen saith We cal the Church the temple where the people which are trewly called the Church are conteined that by the name of the Church I meane the people which is conteined we may signifie the place which conteyneth And againe The Church is the place where the Church is assembled for men are the Church The Church as it is taken for persons hath a triple distinction First the Church of glorious and elect Angels and men Ecclesia deorsum ecclesia sursum Ecclesia deorsum in omnibus fidelibus ecclesia sursum in omnibus Angelis There is a Church beneath there is a Church aboue The Church beneath in all the faithfull the Church aboue in all the Angels And againe The right order of confession required that in our creed next to the three persons in Trinity should stand the Church as next to the owner his howse to God his tēple to the builder his citie which must here be taken for the whole not only that part which is a pilgrime on earth but also for that part which abiding in heauen hath euer since it was created cleauen vnto God This part in the holy Angels persisteth in blessednes and helpeth as it ought her other part wandring in earth The temple of God therfore is the holy Church I mean the vniuersall in heauen and earth Secondly the Church is the people of God through out all nations ioyning reckning al the Saints which before his cōming liued in this world The whole Church euerie where diffused is the bodie of Christ and he is the head of it Not only the faithful which are now but also they that were before vs and they that shall be after vs to the end of the world they al pertaine to his bodie The Church is the body of Christ not the church which is here or there but that which is here and euery where throughout the world neither that Church which is at this time but from Abel vnto those which shall hereafter bee borne and beleeue in Christ euen till the end the whole companie of saintes belonging to one Citie which is the bodie of Christ and whereof he is the head Thirdly the Church may bee limited by time and place as the particular Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus and such like Behold saith Austen in the Church there be Churches which be members of that one Church dispersed throughout the world There be many Churches yet one Church and in that sort many that there is but one Somtimes the church importeth besides the persons y◠things in which those persons must communicate before they can be members of the Church as when the church is called the kingdome citie and howse of God whereby wee learne that it is furnished not onely with persons but with all thinges needefull for the seruants citizens and people of God to the conuerting and sauing of their soules In that sense saith S. Paul The kingdome of God is righteousnes peace and ioy in the holy Ghost meaning these be fruits and effects of Gods kingdome which our Sauiour threatned to take from the Iewes The kingdome of God shall bee taken from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof shewing that when the woorde of trueth and seales of grace are taken from vs wee cease to bee the people and Church of God Christ raigneth in his Church by his word and spirit without these men are not the Church An earthly citie must haue vnitie societie regiment sufficiencie for an earthly state the number of men doeth not make a citie if these thinges want Howe much more must the citie of God haue abundance of al thinges profiting to eternall life S. Austen sayth of the house of God which is the Church It is founded by beleeuing erected by hoping perfected by louing noting these three to bee the maine partes in the building of Gods house It is playner than that longer proofe shall neede If wee woulde define the Church wee must comprehend not onely men but other thinges also which may seuer the Church from those that are not the Church and those thinges that are required to the explication are wee say contained in the appellation of the Church The Church is not simply a number of men for Infidels heretikes and hypocrites are not the Church but of men regenerate by the woord and Sacraments truely seruing God according to the Gospell of his sonne and sealed by the spirite of grace against the day of redemption Men thus qualified are the Church and the giftes and graces of GOD that so qualifie them bee not onely the iewels and ornaments wherewith the spouse of Christ is decked but euen the seede and milke whereby like a mother shee conceyueth and nourceth her children The church our mother saith Austen conceiued vs of Christ nourished yea nourisheth vs with the milke of faith Shee conceiueth by the Sacraments
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
inter se habuerunt were this notwithstanding ioyned in communion pacem in vniuersa Ecclesia tum seruantes tum non seruantes retinuerunt and both sides kept the band of peace in the Catholike Church For the discrepant obseruation of fasting before Easter he saith the like Alij vnum sibi diem ieiunandum esse putant alij duos alij plures alij quadraginta horas Nihilo minus tamen omnes illi pacem inter se retinuerunt retinemus etiamnuÌ„ dissonantia ieiunij fidei concordiam commendat Some fast one daie some two dayes some more some fourtie houres and yet all these continued in peace among themselues and to this day we continue the same and our difference in fasâ—â—â—g commendeth our concord in faith Socrates hath a whole chapter purposely made to shew what diuersitie there was in the Church of Christ about Lent the Lordes Supper marying baptizing praying fasting and such like Ecclesiasticall obseruances and yet all those places and countries parts of the Catholik Church and communicant one with an other in Christian peace and vnitie Operosum molestum fuerit imò impossibile omnes ecclesiarum quae per ciuitates regiones sunt ritus conscribere It were an hard and laborious thing saith he yea an impossible to write al the different customes and manners of the Churches in euerie citie and countrie Qui eiusdem sunt fidei de ritibus inter se dissentiunt They that are of the same faith differ in their rites So that this is no breach of the Christian and Catholike communion which all the faithfull ought to keepe among themselues with their head the author and finisher of their faith Phi. It openeth the gappe to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes and disorders Theo. Why so Because your holy father can not marchandize the soules empt the purses of men as he was wont to do What Sectes Schismes disorders or heresies can there arise if we defend it lawfull for Princes to commaÌ„d for truth within their own Realmes Nay rather hath not the subiecting of Princes to the Popes pride wrought the vtter ruine and decaie of the West Church Where Rulers be many it is easie to finde some good and they wil resist that which is euill and reforme that which is amisse where one ruleth al if he fal as he quickly may he draweth the whole Church into the same danger and error with him Phi. But the successour of Peter can not erre and therefore the Church is safest when it is ruled by him for whose faith Christ praied that it might not faile Theo. Proue that the Pope can not erre and we will graunt not onely this but all your religion besides to be true Phi. What you wil not Theo. The word is spoken accept the condition when you list Till you do we prefer Cyprians iudgement before yours Therefore deare brother saith he writing to Stephanus Bishop of Rome is there a plentifull number of Priestes in the church ioyned togither with the knot of mutuall concorde and bande of peace that if any of our companie make a breach and rent and wast the the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and pitifull Pastours reduce the Lordes sheepe to the flocke againe The number of Rulers in his opinon is no cause of sectes and dissentions but rather a remedie prouided in the Church against disorder and heresie Phi. It maketh all Christian Bishops Priestes and whatsoeuer borne out of the Realme forrainers and vsurpers in all iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall towardes vs that there can be no iurisdiction ouer English-mens soules but proceeding and depending of her soueraigne right therein Theo. Your force is almost spent when you come to these frozen and woodden obiections Wee call those that were borne and liue out of the Realme forrainers What else should wee call them And such as pretend Peters keies to dispose crownes and remoue Princes from their seates ioyning rebellion with remission of sinnes we thinke them vsurpers and abusers of Ecclesiastical iurisdiction A maruelous ouersight in deed We might haue spared you some sharper and quicker termes but by these wee thought good to manifest to the world your iniurious and irreligious drift to be masters of earthly kingdomes by winding and turning Peters keies at your pleasure Phi. Your words exclude Christ his Apostles in as much as they were and be forrainers from hauing any iurisdiction ouer England Theo. It is pitie you can not cauil We striue for iudicial authoritie to depriue Princes you vrge vs with Apostolike power to preach the Gospell and remit sinnes Wee speake of that which is at this present you tell vs what was fifteene hundred yeares since We reason of States in earth you run to Saints in heauen We reiect the Bishop of Rome you wrangle with vs as though wee refused the sonne of God Doth not matter faile you when you flie for helpe to such vnsauory toies Phi. Your oth is so absurdly conceiued that though you ment not to exclude Christ and his Apostles yet in wordes you doe For if No forraine person Prelat State nor Potentate hath nor ought to haue any iurisdiction power superiority preeminence or authority ecclesiasticall or spiritual within this Realme of England surely neither Christ nor his Apostles because they were be forrainers haue or ought to haue any Theo. Not our speaking but your wresting and wrenching of our wordes is far fet most absurd For first where you auouch Christ himself to be a forrainer whoÌ„ we acknowledge to be the right inheritor owner of the whole worlde yea the mighty Lord king of heauen earth in gibing at vs you iest on his birth as if Christ were a forrainer to the Gentiles because he tooke flesh among the Iewes And though you might haue takâ—n some aduantage at his cradle yet you should haue remembred that the Creator is no forrainer to the worke of his handes as likewise the heade is not to the members nor God incarnate to the sonnes of men As for his Apostles in deede whiles they liued on earth they were forrainers but that their spirits now present with God raigning in blisse with Christ bee forrainers is a mad speech of yours no meaning of ours You must send vs word from Rhemes how soules can be French Spanish Scottish or English These with vs be distinctions of couÌ„tries not of souls after death til your new doctrine came wee tooke them to cease With a little helpe I thinke you will make vs some men soules and some women soules you be so skilfull in these conceites Againe might the soules in heauen be called or counted forrainers you must tell vs what ecclesiasticall power authoritie they now exercise on earth We do not affirme that forrainers neuer had any such power in England the Apostles had their commission from
answere Quando se nostro iudicio quibusuis acceptis literis cum sciat damnandum esse committet Qui si accersendus esset ab ijs melius fieret quimagis proximi non longo terrarum spacio videntur esse dsâ—iuncti When will hee commit himselfe to our iudgement write I what letters I will whereas hee knoweth hee shal be condemned And if hee were to bee sent for they may better doe it that are neerer to him and not so farre distant from him as I am Innocentius 400. yeeres after Christ confesseth hee had not sufficient authoritie to call one poore Briton out of this Realme And two hundred yeeres after that the Bishoppes of Britannie woulde yeelde no subiection to him that was sent from Rome nor accept him for their Archbishoppe And euen their manner of baptizing obseruing Easter and other ecclesiasticall institutions contrarie to the rites and customes of the Church of Rome as Augustine the Monke then obiected vnto them make manifest proofe that they were neuer vnder the iurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome Fourthly the Pope coueting and affecting to bee that hee was not disdayned and refused euer since the conquest to bee that hee was and so by his owne fact hath extinguished his owne right if any hee gate in the time of the Saxons who to settle themselues in the possession of this Realme after the chasing out of the Britons were soone entreated to receiue the Bishoppe of Rome for their Patriarke And seeing the headshippe of the Church which hee violently and wrongfully enforced vpon the Normans by Gods Lawe is not his no reason hee should now clayme by his Patriarkshippe which himselfe aspiring to higher tytles so many hundred yeres disused and contemned Lastly the Kinges of England for the most part of them from the Conquerour to this day in the right of their Crowne haue either resisted or rebated the iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall which the Pope claymed in this Lande Wherefore hee was neuer any long tyme in full and quiet possession of his pretensed power in this Realme And her Maiesties Father and brother excluding him both from that authoritie which hee woulde haue ouer this Iland as vnlawfull and repugnant to the woord of God and also from that which for these fiue hundred yeeres and vpward himselfe neglected and omitted had Gods Lawes and mans Lawes for the warrant of their doings and for their leauing him no kind of power or preeminence within this Realme So that his Uicarshippe to Christ must bee prooued by stronger and playner euidence than yet you haue shewed before wee may graunt it And as for his Patriarkeshippe which you woulde nowe take holde of by Gods Lawe hee hath none in this Realme for sixe hundred yeeres after Christ hee had none for the last sixe hundred as looking to greater matters hee woulde haue none aboue or against the sword which God hath ordayned hee can haue none to the subuersion of the fayth and oppression of his brethren in reason right and equitie hee should haue none You must seeke farther for subiection to his Tribunal this Land oweth him nonâ— Phi. Finally if this iurisdiction spirituall bee alwayes of right a sequele of the crowne and Scepter of all kinges assuredly Christ nor none of his Apostles coulde otherwise enter to conuert Countries preach and exercise iurisdiction spiritual without Caesars and others the kings of the countries licence and delegation Theo. Finally if this bee all you can say you may wipe your bill and goe to rest You were told before that Princes haue no right to call or confirme Preachers but to receiue such as bee sent of God and giue them libertie for their preaching and securitie for their persons if Princes refuse so to doe Gods labourers must goe forward with that which is commaunded them from heauen not by disturbing Princes from their thrones nor inuading their Realmes as your holy father doth and defendeth hee may doe but by myldly submitting themselues to the powers on earth and meekely suffering for defence of the trueth what they shall inflict Howe you gather out of this or any wordes of ours that Christ and his Apostles might not preach the Gospell without Cesars delegation and licence from others the kinges of the Countries whither they went I see not except you take the woord supreme for superiour to Christ and all which as I haue often signified vnto you standeth neither with our assertion nor intention but is a very pestilent and impudent sophistication of yours which you still repeate though we still refute Phi. The word supreme is such a Laberinth that wee knowe not what to make of it Theo. You know well enough but you will not acknowledge the true meaning of the woord lest you should discouer your selues and discredite your cause For then either you must shewe which you are no way able to doe that the Pope as a superiour iudge may lawfully commaunde punish and displace Princes if they withstande him or else with vs confesse Princes to bee supreme which your stomackes will not abide And therefore finding your proofes too slender to beare vp the height of his pride and the loade of your follie you thought best to skippe it ouer and in all your Apologie not so much as to offer vs one halfe woorde for the confirmation of the superioritie which the Pope claymeth ouer Princes that being the right construction of the word supreme the first occasion why princes were so called but to braule rather with vs about some words of ours and therefore to make such monsterous and impious imaginations that the simple should be afraid at the very sound of theÌ„ as though we made the prince supreme that is superiour to Christ himselfe and Christs master gaue her absolute infinite power to doe what she listed in al ecclesiastical matters and taught that trueth and faith Scriptures and Sacraments vocation of ministers remission of sinnes preaching baptising and seruing God must proceed from her Soueraigne right and depend on her only will and in this vaine you runne on with a iolly persuasion of your selues that you worke woonders when indeed you doe nothing but leudly peruert our wordes and falsely charge vs with your owne fictions Phi. Neuer burden vs with the peruerting of your words we take them as we finde them and as you sayd before to vs we be not bound to search for your meaning if there bee any generalitie or ambiguitie in your words which you ment not the blame is yours that made choise of such Theo. Cease you to wrest them against the grounds of faith and rules of speach receaued and vsed on both sides we aske you no fauor our wordes be sound and good We call her highnes the Gouernour of this Realm that is the publike magistrat bearing the sword which God hath ordained to commaund good things and punish euill as well in religion as ciuill policie
all Princes one that shall commaund them and depose them at his pleasure what else is this but a resisting of the powers which God hath ordained â—recting and 〈◊〉 in the Church of Christ without authoritie that vnder the couert of binding and feeding shall make him-selfe Lorde of all kingdomes and countries Phi. Supreme is the worde that wee most impugne Theo. And Supreme is the worde which you shall neuer ouerthrow being a plaine and manifest deduction out of the wordes of S. Paul Let euerie soule saith hee bee subiect to the superiour Powers If all men must be subiect to them ergo they be superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Consult both your Seminaries and refell this one sequele if you can marie cauill not as your Apologie doeth that Supreme bringeth Christ and his Sainctes in subiection to Princes The Apostle speaketh of mortall men and so doe wee And in comparison with them if Sainct Pauls words be true that euery soule must be subiect to Princes as vnto Superiours our consequent is irrefutable that Princes be supreme Phi. S. Paul maketh them superiours ouer all persons but not ouer all thinges Theo. That distinction is ours not yours we did euer interprete supreme for superiour to all men within their dominions Phi. And so wee graunt them to bee but not in all thinges For in temporall thinges they be superiours to all men in spirituall they bee not Theo. That restraint commeth too late The holy Ghost charging you to be subiect to them simply without addition it passeth your reach to limit in what thinges you will and in what thinges you will not be subiect Againe wee haue inuinciblie proued and you haue clearely confessed that Princes may commaunde for trueth and that they beare the sworde for the perfect obseruation and execution of Gods lawe and publike defence of the faith and Cannons of the Church which bee thinges not temporall but spirituall and out of all question where they may by Gods law command all men must obey them not onely for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Lastly what better proofe can you wish that in all thinges they bee superiours to all men than that their sworde may not bee resisted for any temporall or spirituall cause but must bee rather indured with meekenes reuerence though they persecute truth shew themselues enemies to God and his church For so the Lord in his owne person taught vs his Apostles after him in their writings sufferings followed the same course Phi. Had Heathen tyrantes lawfull power ouer Christ and his Apostles in spirituall thinges Theo. Lawfull power of the sworde to rewarde and punish they had ouer Christ and his Apostles in thinges and causes spiritual The Lord of grace and life being deliuered by the Priests to the Magistrate for blasphemie which is a spirituall crime refused not the iudge but submitting him-selfe to the Princes Deputie confessed Pilates power ouer him to bee from heauen notwithstanding Pilates sentence against him was wrongfull and wicked S. Paul imprisoned for preaching the Gospel required to be sent to Caesar and to make answere before Caesar concerning his doctrine and doings S. Peter patiently endured Neroes sword euen vnto death for teaching the trueth and warned all Christians to doe the like Let none of you suffer publike punishment as a murderer or as a theefe or a malefactour or as a medler with other mens matters but if any man suffer as a Christian that is for religion let him not be ashamed but glorifie God in this respect They that resist especially wheÌ„ they be punished for religioÌ„ shal receiue to themselues iudgement and damnation for God is then most dishonoured when wee make religion a buckler for rebellion If none must resist that suffer as christians ergo by Gods ordinance al men be subiect to the Princes sword euen in spirituall causes as well as in temporall Phi. To suffer but not to obey Theo. Suffering is as sure a signe of subiection as obeying And yet whom you must indure commaunding that which is euill in matters of religion those you must obey when they commaunde that which is good in the selfe same causes which you heard concluded out of S. Augustine before Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Emperors which are made for the truth of God incurreth a grieuous iudgement And againe When Emperours hold truth they commaund for truth which whosoeuer despiseth purchaseth to himselfe iudgement So that all men are bound to be subiect to the sword in all thinges be they temporall or spirituall not only by suffering but also by obeying mary with this caution that in thinges which bee good and agreeable to the law of God the sword must be obeyed in things that be otherwise it must be indured This then is the supreme power of Princes which we soberly teach and you so bitterly detest that they be Gods ministers in their owne dominions bearing the sword freely to permit and publikely to defend that which God commaundeth in faith and good manners and in ecclesiasticall discipline to receiue and establish such rules and orders as the Scriptures and Canons shal decide to be needfull and healthfull for the Church of God in their kingdomes And as they may lawfully commaund that which is good in all thinges and causes bee they temporall spirituall or ecclesiasticall so may they with iust force remoue whatsoeuer is erronious vitious or superstitious within their Landes and with externall losses and corporall paines represse the brochers and abetters of heresies and all impieties from which subiection vnto Princes no man within their Realmes Monke Priest Preacher nor Prelate is exempted and without their Realmes no mortall man hath any power from Christ iudicially to depose them much lesse to inuade them in open field least of al to warraÌ„t their subiectes to rebell against them These be the things which we contend for not whether Princes be Christs masters or the functions to preach baptise impose hands forgiue sinnes must be deriued from the Princes power and lawes or the Apostles might enter to conuert countries without Caesars delagations those bee iestes and shiftes of yours no braunches nor sequeles of our opinion You see the partes proofes of our doctrine neither draw back nor dally but go to the matter and say what fault you finde with our assertion Phi. The former branches of your assertion might be receiued if it were agreed by whom the sword should be directed We our selues confesse that the Princes sworde should permit defend and execute that which is good in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges causes and iudgementes and repell and punish the contrarie But least Princes shoulde wade too farre or tread awry we would haue their swords guided and if need be restrained by such as haue greater experience and better intelligence in those affaires For ecclesiasticall rules and
except it were out of the bookes of faith or who would trust them in diuine causes without some colour of diuine Scriptures But what meanes the Lord hath left his sheepe to distinguish true shepheards from wolues dissembling their habite and theeues pretending his name this is the question that now we bee in Phi. It is And there must wee say bee some certaine Tribunall on earth where truth may be found at all times and of all men that bee willing to seeke for it otherwise there should be no stay for religion nor end of contention euery man pretending his faith to be trueth and no man hauing authoritie to decide which is trueth which were most absurd Theo. A Tribunal in earth to decide which is trueth Whose Tribunal shall that be Phi. The Churches Theo. We be now as neere as we were before If the truth be douted of the church must needes be much more doubted of because the church is the number of men professing the truth And howe can the professours of trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question You doe but wast your breath if you goe not more directly to worke Phi. You would fayne call the Church in question but that you can not Theo. Away with these follies Where fayth faileth the church fayleth and hee that affirmeth your doctrine to bee false denyeth your assemblies and multitudes to bee the Church The supposing your selues to bee the Church when your fayth shoulde bee tried is a fonde and vaine delay Shall that be trueth which you professe though Christ say nay Phi. We say not so Theo. Then suffer those to bee his sheepe that heare his voyce and clayme not his fold vntill you be his sheepe Phi. We do not Theo. Wee must be first resolued which is his voyce before we can agree who are his sheepe Phi. I know that and yet which is the sheepheards voyce the sheepe must iudge and not the wolues The. In deed our sauiour saith The sheepe follow the shepheard for they know his voyce A stranger they will not follow but flee from him for they knew not the voyce of strangers applying this to himself My sheep saith he heare my voyce and follow me The reason went before for they know the voyce of their shepheard So that by the position of our Sauiour his sheepe must be able to discerne his voyce from a strangers Phi. What else Theo. His voyce is his woord his sheepe are the faithfull his folde is his church If the Lorde himselfe referre his sheepe to their exact knowledge of his voyce for their perfect direction why woulde you force the flocke of Christ to the court of Rome there to learne at your handes and vppon your only credite the voyce of their shepheard Phi. We would haue them followe the direction of Christes church in discerning the sound of Christes voyce Theo. And the church of Christ neuer directed any man by prescribing certaine places or persons where trueth could not fayle but only by the generall and constant profession of the same faith from the Apostles downe-ward in all ages and countries Phi. The church commendeth succession councels and Apostolicall Seates as good helpes to hit the right sense of the Scriptures Theo. But neuer as infallible notes to discerne the trueth Phi. The Bishops of the vniuersall Church haue as S. Ireneus sayth receiued with their Episcopal succession the grace and gift of vnderstanding the trueth Theo. You do that auncient father wrong in the place which you bring Ireneus limiteth succession after the same maner that we do noting successiō to be nothing worth vnlesse sound doctrine and holy conuersation be thereunto ioyned His woordes be Wee must therfore obey those Priests which are in the Church I meane those which haue their succession from the Apostles which together with their succession in office haue receiued charisma veritatis certum the sure doctrine or gift of trueth The rest we must suspect either as heretikes or as authors of schismes and pleasers of themselues or else as hypocrites vayne glorious and couetous From all such we must abstaine and cleaue to them as I said which keepe the doctrine of the Apostles with the order of their priestly calling yeeld wholesome doctrine conuersation without offence And shewing what hee meaneth by charisma he sayth Vbi igitur charismata Domini posita sunt ibi dicere oportet veritatem Where these blessings and gifts of God are there must we learne the trueth with whome is that succession of the Church which is from the Apostles and also sounde and irreproueable Doctrine So that orderly succession sound doctrine and conuersation without blame are the giftes and graces of God which he meaneth and the one hee will not haue to bee regarded or trusted without the other Phi. Make you no more accompt of succession Theo. We cōmend succession to exclude ambition and dissention in the Church of Christ and in that respect we detest such as inuade the Pastorall function without lawfull vocation and election but that succession in place should be taken for a warrant of true Doctrine is an error of yours and so palpable that euery Child can refell it For who knoweth not that an infinite number of bishops those orderly succeeding if you looke to their dignitie and not to their doctrine haue beene heretiks And that S. Paul thus forewarned the Bishops of Ephesus Out of your selues shall rise men speaking peruerse things to draw disciples after them And the Lord when he saith Beware of false prophets noteth there shall bee prophets by their calling which shal be foūd false in their teaching as S. Peter also witnesseth There were false prophets among the people of the Iewes euen as there shall be false teachers amongst you distinguished from Godly teachers not by office but by Doctrine S. Paul graunteth many to be the ministers of Christ in outward profession and shew which in workes and deeds be the ministers of Sathan Such false Apostles saith hee are deceitful workers and transforme them selues into the Apostles of Christ. The Prince of darkenesse that can conuaie his agents to be Teachers Prophets and Apostles in the Church of Christ can place them in Bishoprikes at his pleasure and therefore the chaire is no sure defence against error Phi. Wee know some Bishops haue beene heretikes but not all Theo. Neither do we say that all were God forbid But by this that some were we proue succession to bee no sure direction vnto trueth If Berillus Paulus Samosatenus Photinus Nestorius Dioscorus Petrus Apameus Sergius Cyrus Theodorus Macarius and infinit others canonically succeeding in Seates and Churches of no small account fell afterward into pestilent heresies that which was often easie then is contingent possible still succession which saued not them from erring can not defend others from the
felowes the Louanists in their late Plantine edition haue mended the points made thē interrogatiue for very shame But how so euer you set the points certaine it is the Lorde prayed ioyntly for them all and that at this very supper as the 17. of S. Iohn witnesseth in as ample manner for all as for one I pray for them I pray not for the world Holy father preserue them in thy name whō thou hast giuen me keepe them from euill sanctifie them in thy trueth It is a greater grace to bee kept from euill and to bee sanctified in the trueth which Christ requested for all than to haue their fayth not fayle and to bee conuerted which hee promised vnto Peter You doe therefore very wickedly to teach the people that None other Apostle might chalenge any such speciall prerogatiue either of his office or Person as to bee stedfast in trueth without error The prayer was generall for them all by the iudgement of S. Augustine and were it not the prayer which our Sauiour made for them all and the promise which hee made vnto them all euen the same night that hee spake this are more effectual than this The prayer you haue heard the promise is If I depart not the comforter shall not come vnto you but if I depart I will send him vnto you And when that Spirit of trueth commeth hee shall leade you into all trueth To bee led into all trueth is a better assurance against error than to fall first and after to bee conuerted which is all that is promised vnto Peter in this place Phi. Saint Augustine also Christ praying for Peter prayed for the rest because in the Pastor and Prelate the people is corrected or commended Saint Ambrose writeth that Peter after his tentation was made Pastor of the Church because it was said to him thou being conuerted confirme thy brethren Theo. You might haue spared these authorities but that you must needes haue the Fathers names in your mouthes though they make nothing for you The words of S. Augustine which you cite are not found in the olde Printes nor in their copies but crept into some written bookes by the negligence and vnskilfulnesse of scribes and yet were they S. Augustines I see not what you gaine by them Peter is there called Praepositus that is preferred before the rest as also Praelatus doeth signifie both which wordes in the Fathers bee commonly applied to all Bishops import no singular prerogatiue that Peter should claime but the common charge which all Pastours haue And though the words which you quote be neither many nor materiall yet you mistake them For you say the people is corrected or commended where the Latine is Semper in praeposito populus aut corripitur aut laudatur the people is alwayes reproued or praised in their leader or Prelate S. Ambrose saith no more but that Petrus Ecclesiae praeponitur post quam à Diabolo tentatus est Peter receiueth charge of the church after he was tempted of the Diuell And by these wordes thou being conuerted confirme thy brethrē he saith The Lord doth signifie what it meaneth that he did after chose him to be sheepehearde of the Lordes flocke to wit that hee and all other sheepeheardes by his example should learne to beare with their weake brethren and vse that kindinesse and patience in restoring and confirming others which their Lord and master first shewed in suffering conuerting them And this Sainct Ambrose did well to make the chiefest point of a christian sheepeheard Phi. But S. Ambrose saith in the singular number Petrus ecclesiae praeponitur eum elegit Pastorem Dominici gregis Peter is set ouer the Church and Christ chose him to be Pastor of his flocke Sure you be singular men to quote such places and make such conclusions Peter was set ouer the Church or made Pastour of the Lordes flocke ergo none but Peter Euen so you may reason The Gospell of the glorie of the blessed God is committed to mee saith Paul ergo to none but to Paul And againe I am the teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth ergo none but he Or when he saith to the Philippians It is giuen vnto you not onely to beleeue in Christ but also to suffer for Christ ergo it is giuen to none but to them If you play thus with Scriptures and fathers you may make mad worke in them both Phi. Peter was made Pastour of the flock Theo. And so were others as you heard out of Ambrose before The Lords flocke not only Peter receiued but we al with him Phi. He was set ouer the church The. And so are al Pastors Our Sauiour saith of teachers in generall Who then is a faithfull seruant wise whom his master hath set ouer his household to giue them meate in season S. Cyprian speaking of himselfe saith Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositum persequitur For this he persueth the ruler or ouerseer of the church S. Augustine saith Praepositi intelligendi sunt per quos ecclesia nunc gubernatur They must be taken for ouerseers of the church by whom the church is nowe gouerned And againe Sunt quidam Ecclesiae praepositi de quibus Paulus dicit sua quaerentes There are some ouerseers of the church of whom Paul saith they seeke their owne So that Praepositus and Pastor Ecclesiae bee not titles proper to Peter but stiles common to all Bishops and therefore by them you can inferre nothing But where all this while are your proofes that Peter could not erre which is the frame that you would fasten on these wordes Why proue you thinges superfluous and skip that which is most in question betwixt vs What father euer saide that these wordes of our Sauiour made Peter free from falling or erring From desperation irrepentance the Lords praier saued him recouered him when he was ready to perish from falling or erring hee was defended no more than the rest nay not so much They fled forsooke their master he presuming farther sped worse as the Lord fortold him the Gospel reporteth of him And were that proued which you neither offer nor are able to proue yet doth it not belong to the Bishop of Rome which is it that we sticke at For touching Peters person and office we can soone be intreated to thinke and speake the best And though we do not say as you do that truth was tied to his sleeue only yet are we of opinion that he and his fellow Disciples were guided into all truth as by whom the church was first to bee planted and from whome the faithfull were to receiue the word of truth the foundation of their faith And therefore we nothing doubt but as the writings of Peter Paul Iames Iohn Iude Matthew bee canonical Scriptures so the preaching not of Peter onely but of all the rest
you bee â—owly deceiued Your consequent is as false as your antecedent is true That Princes shoulde vse their swordes for the seruice of GOD is a cleare and vndoubted principle but that Prophetes Priests or Popes may take their Scepters from them if they vse them otherwise than they ought this is a false presumption of yours and not a consequent either of your former examples or your later excurrents where you fâ—â—rish about with many pretences and prefaces to shew the reason of your wicked assertion Phi. Our conclusion is that the Priests and Prophets rightly opposed themselues in all such actions as tended to the dishonour of God and destruction of religion and in the behalfe of God executed iustice vpon such as contrarie to their obligation and first institution abused their soueraigne power to the aduancement of Idolatrie heresie Theo. What wordes you list to colour and cloake your conclusion with wee care not The matter in question betwixt vs is not whether Prophetes might oppose themselues by way of reproofe or do that which God commaunded them to the terror of Idolatrous Princes which you call executing of iustice in Gods behalfe vpon such as abused their power But in plaine termes whether euer any Priest or Prophet by vertue of their vocation as superiour Iudges did violently withstand or iudicially depose Idolatrous or hereticall Princes You take vppon you to proue by holy Scripture they did we say they did not They reproued them and threatned them by special direction and message from God they neuer deposed any Onely God sent one of them to will Iehu to take the sword in hand and as a lawfull magistrate nominated and elected by God himselfe to take vengeance on Achabs house and race Whence it will not follow that other Priests and Prophets by their ordinarie calling might do the like or giue Crownes and kingdomes as they sawe cause This was and is specially reserued vnto God When hee speaketh the worde Princes shall loose not only Scepter and State but life and soule and vntill hee speake neither Apostles nor Prophets Priests nor Popes may presume to dispose kingdomes or name successours to the Crownes of earthly Princes Phi. In these cases and all other doubtes and differences betwixt one man and an other or betwixt Prince and people that Priestes and namely the high Priest shoulde bee the Arbiter and Iudge the interpreter of Gods wil towards his people is most consonant both to nature reason the vse of all nations and to the expresse Scriptures For in Gods sacred Law thus we read Si difficile ambiguum apud te iudicium esse prospexeris inter sanguinem sanguinem causam causam lepram non lepram c. If thou foresee the iudgement to be hard and ambiguous betwixt bloud and bloud cause and cause leprosie or no leprosie and find varietie of sentences among the iudges at home rise and goe vp to the place which the Lorde thy God shall chuse and thou shalt come to the Priests of Leuies stocke and to the iudge that shall be for the time thou shalt aske of them they will iudge according to the trueth of iudgement and thou shalt doe whatsoeuer they say that haue the rule of the place which God shall chuse and shall teache thee according to his lawe thou shalt not decline neither to the right hand nor left And if any shall bee so proude as not to obey the commandement of the Priest that shall for that time minister vnto the Lord thy God by the sentence of the iudge let that man die and so thou shalt remoue euil from Israel and al the people hearing shall feare and take heede that hereafter they waxe not proude Thus farre in the holy text generally with out all exception subiecting in cases of such doubtes as are recited all degrees of faithfull men no lesse kinges than others to the Priests resolution Theo. What will you doe to help your cause that will thus both corrupt wrest the Scriptures to make them serue your fansies You wilfully peruert the words of the holy Ghost to bring them to your beck and as if that were not corruption enough you wrench force the sense of the Scripture against reasoÌ„ against trueth against the whole course of the Iewes common wealth against the very partes and branches of the text it selfe Phi. First what corruption haue wee committed in the wordes Theo. That where the wordes are If any through pride will not obay the commaundement of the Priest which shall for the time minister vnto the Lord thy God or disobay the Decree of the Iudge that man shall die you change them and say If any man will not obay the commaundement of the Priest by the Decree of the Iudge that man shall die Phi. So the latine is Ex decreto â—udicis morietur homo ille By the decree of the Iudge shal that man die Theo. But the Greeke and Hebrue are cleane against it The words of the Septuagint are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The man whosoeuer he be that shal in pride not obay the Priest that is appointed to minister vnto the name of the Lord or els shal not obay the iudge which shal be in those daies that man shal die thou shalt take the euil one from Israel The Hebrew is answerable to the Greeke The man that shal doe in pride Lebilthi shemóahh el-haccohèn hahhomèd Lesháreth shà m eth-Iehouà elohéca ò el-hasshophèt umeth haïsh hahù not to heare the Priest or the Iudge that man shall die And so did Cyprian repete this text Et homo quicunque fecerit in superbia vt non exaudiat Sacerdotem aut Iudicem quicunque fuerit in diebus illis morietur homo ille omnis populus cum audierit timebit And the man whosoeuer shall in pride not heare the Priest OR THE IVDGE which shal be in those dayes that man shal die and al the people when they heare of it shall feare Phi. But S. Hierom read it otherwise as you see by his translation Theo. You haue corrupted the translation which you call S. Hieroms and now you would bolster out your forgeries with his name Howbeit knowe you that the very same translatioÌ„ not long since was not Ex decreto iudicis but decreto iudicis He that obeyeth not the coÌ„mandement of the Priest and the decree of the iudge that man shall die This was the text of the Bible which you cal S. Hierome not much more than 200 yeres since when Nicolaus de Lyra your ordinarie Glosse did coÌ„ment vpon it And so they read to this day as also many written copies that I haue seene Hereupon Lyra saith In these such cases they must haue recourse to the superiour Iudges that is to the high Priest and the Iudge of the people And sometimes it fell out that both offices did concurre in one person
and shunne the wicked when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates to represse them or punish them may not rashly be stretched to the Magistrates person or function neither must you so force generall and indirect speeches of the Scripture that they shall euert the speciall and expresse commaundements of God But God hath expressely prescribed subiection and tribute to vitious tyrannous and Idolatrous Princes for such they were of whom Christ and his Apostles spake as no man can denie Therefore no consequent of Scripture may be wrested against it least you make the wil of God changeable or repugnant to it selfe which is heinous impietie to perswade or beleeue Phi. To tyrants and idolaters we must he subiect but not to heretikes although they bee Princes Theo. Confessing the former which you can not chose but admit by what meanes auoide you the later Heretiks may be Princes as well as idolaters and to Princes in respect of their power not of their vertues God will haue vs subiect S. Paul doeth not say Let euerie soule bee subiect to christian and vertuous powers but vnto supreme powers euen whē they were worshippers of diuels and spillers of christian blood Let vs therefore heare what ground you haue out of Gods law why this precept you must be subiect shall hold in blasphemous and Idoolatrous Princes but not in hereticall or excommunicate persons Phi. I told you before S. Iohn saith If any man bring not this doctrine salute him not Theo. Did those Tyrants and idolaters that were Prnces whiles S. Iohn liued bring the doctrine of Christ with them Phi. No but this is ment of heretikes Theo. It was spoken of all as well impugners as betraiers of the faith and why then do you restraine it to heretikes Phi. Christians might eate with Infidels but not with heretikes Theo. They might with those that were ignorant of the faith with purpose no winne them but not with those that impugned the faith for that could haue none other intent but feare or flatterie And with such S. Paul forbiddeth the christians all concord communion and fellowship Draw not the yoke with infidels For what fellowship hath righteousnes with vnrighteousnesse what communion hath light with darknesse what concord hath Christ with Belial or what part hath the beleeuer with the infidel Wherefore come out from among them and separate your selues saith the Lord. Separate your selues from them is as much as salute them not or eate not with them and yet were Christians bound to obey such with all submission if they were Magistrates Againe they might not eate with adulterers raylers drunkards extorsioners nor with any couetous persons might they therefore disobey the magistrate that was spotted with any of these or the like vices Phi. Not except hee were excommunicated for those vices Theo. Then neither Apostasie nor heresie depriue Princes of their authoritie but excommunication only which you may inflict as well for any disorder as for heresie Phi. What fault finde you with that Theo. You make excommunication but a limetwigge to intangle the persons and indaunger the states of Princes by maintaining rebellion against them vnder the name of religion when they wil not be ruled as you would haue them or not suffer their Realmes to ly open to the pray and pride of the Bishop of Rome For then hee must take vppon him to be the whole church which he is not excommunicate them whom hee should not and after that excommunication denounced you teach the people to refuse subiection to beare armes against their lawfull Magistrates vppon this pretence that you haue deposed them and disinherited them of their kingdoms which is a wicked and false presumption of yours resistant to the lawes of God and man For graunt hee might excommunicate them which yet is not proued the vttermost perill of excommunication before men is that which our Sauiour expresseth in Sainct Matthewes Gospel If he neglect to heare the church let him bee to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane But Ethnikes by your confession may not bee depriued of their kingdomes ergo neither persons excommunicate Againe your owne lawe graunteth that excommunication dischargeth neither seruauntes children nor wiues from the duetie which they owe to the father of the familie and shall it set free subiectes from a stronger and higher bonde of duetie which God hath more straitly prescribed and inioyned them to the father of their Countrie What wilfull and obstinate blindnesse is this in you that where excommunication is a meere spirituall punishment and reacheth no farther by Gods Lawe than to take from offenders the remission of their sinnes by wanting the worde and Sacramentes vntill they repent you to gratifie the founder of your Rhemish and Romish hospitales stretch it vnto the states Crownes lymmes and liues of Princes and deriue thence not onely the deposing but also the murdering of Christian kinges and Queenes and that by their owne subiectes if hee saie the worde And this you assaie to perswade by corrupting and maintaining the Scriptures bolstering the conspiracies and impieties of your holy father against Princes with an vnshamefast prophaning and adulterating of the worde of truth which is not the least of your irreligious attemptes Resist your places and shewe vs but one halfe worde out of the holie Scripture that Princes may be iudicially deposed by Priestes or that you haue authoritie from Christ to punish such as you excommunicate with externall and temporal paines and losses which is it that you now would faine inferre and for the rest though wee neede not you shall haue our assents Phi. Least any man should thinke this power to bee so meerely spirituall that it might not in any wise be extended to temporall or corporall domage or chastisement of the faithfull in their goods liues possessions or bodies being meere secular thinges and therefore not subiect to their Pastours spirituall or Priestly function it is to bee marked in the holy Apostles first execution of their commissions authority that though their spirituall power immediatly directly concerneth not our temporall affaires yet indirectly and as by accident it doth not only concerne our soules but our bodies goods so farre as is requisite to our soules health and expedient for the good regiment thereof and the churches vtility being subiect to their spirituall Gouernours Theo. It is to be marked that if you may be suffered you will soone chalenge not only spirituall things as your peculiar but euen the goods liues possessions and bodies of the faithfull and as well of Princes as others to be subiect to your tribunals if not directly yet indirectly that is if not by one means yet by an other so far as you thinke it expedient for the regiment health of the soule vtility of the church that shall be far enough I dare vndertake If you affirme this vpon your own credite we little esteeme it your
reportes wee may hardly trust since your speciall instaunces be so corrupted and wrested And could you shewe that which you speake of as you can not you must also proue it well done or at leâ—t to haue beene liked and allowed of the Church of Christ before we can receiue it The Apostles rule is strong against it You must bee subiect not onely for wrath but for conscience sake Many thousand Martyrs Bishoppes others submitted themselues and endured the vilest torments that coulde bee deuised against them as the ten persecutions of Christes Church vnder heathen Princes most clearly witnesse that euer any of their subiects rebelled against those bloody persecutors in respect of religion must be your care to shewe Wee reading all the monumentes of those tymes verily find none and by your silence it should appeare your selues know none otherwise we do not thinke you woulde disfurnish your cause and trouble the reader with impertinent matters That the Citizens of Antioch defended their Church with armes against the Emperour Galerius his officers I find it writteÌ„ in no good Author neither do you quote the place that Storie you may put in your Legende as taken thence by most likelyhood The temples of their bodies which were farre more precious they did not defend from the furious and insatiable rage of Diocletian Maximinus but as well at Antioche as in all other places subiect to the Romane Empire the christian men women mildly gladly suffered those torments deaths and shames which in our eyes neither flesh could beare nor nature brooke so that wee haue cause rather to maruaile at their patience than to mistrust their disobedience Phi. S. Basil and S. Ambrose people defended them against the inuasions of Heretikes Theo. After Valens the Emperour had twise decreed to banish S. Basil and was the first tyme stopped of his course by the suddaine sicknes of his sonne and terror of his wife and the second time by a straunge trembling of hande and heart as he was subscribing the sentence of deportation against him hee neuer after offered to meddle with Saint Basill but suffered him quietly to enioy his Bishopricke Yet fell there out after this a contention betweene the Lieutenaunt of Pontus and Saint Basill about the liberties of the sanctuarie for a Noble woman that had taken the Church for her refuge to saue her selfe from one that woulde haue forced her to mariage against her will The Deputie required the woman to bee deliuered the Bishoppe replied that hee might not violate the Lawes of GOD and man The Deputie stomacking Saint Basill and the more for his stout defence otherwise of the Christian faith sent for the Bishoppe to his Tribunall and commaunding him to bee stript threatned to whippe him and to teare his flesh with Iron hookes This indignitie the people could no longer abide but seeing their Pastor thus shamefully handled without the Emperours commandemeÌ„t or knowledge vpon the priuate displeasure of a Deputie for the liberties of the Church established by the Romane Lawes the whole citie men and women fell to an vprore and were like enough to haue done the Deputie some mischiefe but that Saint Basil with much adoe repressing the people deliuered his persecutor from that perill This is the true report of Saint Basils case euen out of the same author which you auouche Gregorie Nazianzene Their griefe you see was not against the Emperours power or fact but against the malice of a Lieutenant presuming vpon a priuate grudge without any warrant from the Prince not onely to doe that which the Emperour in his owne person had refrained but in most spitefull and seruile manner to abuse their Bishop against all order of Lawe And this tumult S. Basil neither procured nor praised but asswaged with his presence and offered himselfe to the Deputies pleasure Of S. Ambrose wee spake before by occasion and thither we send you It is most vntrue that the people of Millan either did or might take armes against the Emperour though hee were then but a child and therefore might make no Lawes for Religion or otherwise without Theodosius ioynt Emperour with him in possession of the scepter before him Which exception neither S. Ambrose nor other godly bishops vsed against him but submitted themselues with al meekenes when in reason they might haue taken this aduantage Of the people S. Ambrose himselfe giueth this testimonie In singulis vobis Iob reuixit in singulis sancti illius patientia virtus refulsit Quid enim praesentis dici potuit a viris Christianis quà m quod â—odie in vobis locutus est Spiritus sanctus Rogamus Auguste non pugnamus non timemus sed rogamus Hoc Christianos decet In euery one of you Iob is aliue againe in eche of you his patience and vertue shined What coulde bee sayde fitter by Christian men than that which the holy Ghost this day spake in you We beseech O Emperour we offer not armes Wee feare not to die but we intreate thy clemencie This beseemeth Christians to desire tranquillitie of peace faith but to bee constant in the truth euen vnto death And for his part when hee heard that his Church was taken vp by the Emperours souldiers he fet only somewhat the deeper sighes sayd to such as exhorted him to goe thither deliuer vp my Church I may not but sight I ought not Phi. But the people were in a commotion which appeareth by that S. Ambrose answered when they willed him to asswage their furie It lay in him not to incite them but hee had no meanes to represse them Theo. Truth it is that the people flocked to their Churches and chose rather to bee slaine in the place than to leaue them vnto Arians But that they offered armes or attempted any force either for S. Ambrose or against Valentinian is a manifest vntrueth The merchaunts were amerced and emprisoned the Nobles were hardly threatned and S. Ambrose himselfe charged as with a sedition and yet all the violence that was offered was this The people passing from one Church to an other met a Chapleine of the Arrians and some vnruly persons as in such heates it can not otherwise be chosen beganne to illude and abuse the man but the Bishop presently sent his Priestes and Deacons and rescued him from that iniurie which yet the Emperour tooke so grieuously that hee layd a number of them in Irons and imposed a great mulet vpon the whole Citie to bee paide within three dayes Farther force was none offered by the people of Millan and yet of that small disorder Saint Ambrose saith If they thought him to bee the inciter or stirrer of the people they should straightway reuenge it on him or banish him into what wildernesse they would And to that end he departed home to bed to his owne house that if any man woulde haue him into exile
not be possible for him and the Princes that succeeded him to represse the Popes insolencie which beganne to increase apace This was the true cause why Gregorie the 9. set himselfe against Frederike the second after his first absolution which cost so many thousands what soeuer the Italian writers do imagine in hatred of Frederike whom they misliked as well for persuing the Pope as for spoyling and wasting their natiue Countrie Phi. Did hee not well deserue their hatred that ranged ouer all Italie with incredible cruelty sacked their cities filled euery towne village familie with mortal discord and dissention banished and murdered Bishoppes imprisoned the Cardinals Prelats as they were comming to the Councel so pursued inclosed the Pope that he died for very griefe of heart as Platina writeth Theo. Will you kindle a fire and then looke it should not burne What other fruits of warre coulde you expect but these or worse You made leagues to bereaue him of his right you caused his subiects to meete him in the field you accursed his person and depriued him of his Empire you came out in armes against him as you would against a Turk or an Infidel you did what you could to requite him his with like rage and violence when you could not be euen with him you thought it best to complaine of his crueltie But you loose your labour For warres are iudged by their causes and not by their consequents If Frederikes cause were good as the persuite of his right demand of obedience within the Territories of his Empire could not be euil thē your rebellions confederatiōs excōmunications depriuations such like actions to resist him defraud him or oppresse him were al wrongful wicked and his reuenge of your conspiracies treacheries though sharp and seuere was lawful as the cause stood needful Phi. No Prince euer delt so badlie with the Church of Rome as Frederike did Theo. No Prince was euer prouoked with halfe the iniuries with the which he was He was foure seueral times solemnly deposed by the bishops of Rome once by Honorius twise by Gregorie lastly by Innocentius the 4. his good friend whiles he was a Cardinal but his capital enimie when hee came to bee Pope Phi. It skilleth not how often it was done so long as it was done for causes vrgent important Theo. If the Pope had any such power as he hath not the causes must be iust and true which these were not Phi. Yes that they were And though the rest did not so plainely expresse thē which maketh you to carp at them yet Innocentius the 4. layeth his downe in writing which are extant to this day Theo. You say trueth The censure of Innocentius against Frederike the second is extant in your Decretals and foure causes of his deposition there remembred Phi. And those no lesse than periurie sacrilege heresie iniurie and oppression of the Church of Rome The. If it be enough for you to obiect what you list you may soone condemne whom you please We heare your holy father in his magnificence charge the Emperour with these foure things but I winne it woulde trouble him or you to prooue them Hee committed periurie the Pope sayth in his iudiciall sentence by rashly breaking the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire If the trueth were well tried this periurie lighteth on the Pope and not on the Prince For Howe coulde the Popes Legates be in the field against the Prince to assist his rebels and not breake the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire Is the Popes power so infinite that he can make right in the Prince to be periurie and warre in him-selfe to bee peace The taking and deteyning of Cardinals and Prelates was the sacrilege which in this place is obiected to the Prince but when you proue that Prelats and Cardinals be no subiectes and that they may lawfully take armes against Princes and yet no Prince must lay handes on them then you may chaunce to haue an action of wrongful detynue against the Emperour but not of sacrilege It is a point of your popish pride to make it sacrilege for a lawfull magistrate to restraine your parish Priestes of Rome from their seditious intens practises What are your Cardinals by Gods Law more than other Clergie men or why may not the Prince both represse them and punish them if they disturbe his state Phi. They were not his subiects Theo. Then were they his enemies since they came armed and presumed with their shippes to encounter his why should he not sease them as his prisoners Phi. They came to keepe a Councel being thereto called by the Popes authoritie Theo. To call Councels was the Emperours right and not the Popes and this conuenticle was called to oppresse the Emperour Why therefore might hee not preuent it and disperse it especially when straungers offered to passe his dominion by plain force without his leaue Heresie was the third crime for which the Pope suspected him Wherin if a mortall enemie may be both accursed and iudge and proceede vpon no better ground than suspition you may quickly condemne any man of heresie Princes haue warme offices if they shal lose their Crownes as soone as the Pope lysteth to suspect them of heresie The fourth cause is more foolish than any of the former The prince forsoothe forced his subiects in Sicilie to aguise him and obey him as their lawful prince notwithstanding the Bishoppe of Rome had deposed him and the persons that would not hee banished and diuersly punished This in deede was not for your profite but this was nothing against his dutie Ph. He forced them to impugne the Church of Rome whose vassalles they were Theo. The Church of Rome had a yeerely pension out of Sicilie which is here specified more the Pope could not claim and that pensiō was first yeelded by those that vsurped the kingdome of Sicilie against the Empire For Roger of Normanie whē Lotharius the Emperor had chased him out of Apulia Campania taken those countries from him intended the like for Calabria Sicilie but that he was called away by suddain occasions died before he could returne grew to a secret compact with the bishop of Rome to hold the kingdome of Sicilie which the Emperour claymed as from the Church of Rome by a yeerely recognisance After the death of Lotharius Conradus the next Emperour was so troubled first with rebellion at home then with an expedition into Syria that he had no leasure to thinke of Sicilie Against Frederike the first who succeeded Conrade in the Empire did William of Sicilie nephew to this Roger for his sonne raigned not long conspire with the cities of Lombardie and the Bishoppe of Rome to keepe the Germane Emperour aloofe from Italie and so long they striued hauing
well erre in their generations before vs Phi. They kept the steppes of their fathers which if you doe you shall not erre Theo. This is the next way round about to come to the wood For how will you proue that euery generation which hath beene these 1500. yeares since Christ hath precisely kept the rules and limites of their forefathers Phi. You can not shew when or where they swarued Theo. If wee could not our ignorance in that point is no great securitie for your faith The defection of euerie age from their fathers might be either not marked or not recorded or since oblitered and therefore reason you proue your faith to haue descended from age to age without alteration before we beleeue it to be the faith of your fathers But what meaneth this that you prescribe that way to iudge of religion and the seruice of God which God himselfe prohibiteth Phi. Doth God forbid vs to follow our fathers Theo. In as plaine wordes as can be spoken with a tongue by the mouth of Ezechiel he saith Walke ye not in the preceptes of your fathers neither obserue their manners nor defile your selues with their idols I am the Lord your God walke in my statutes and keepe my iudgementes By Dauid he saith Let them not be as their fathers were a disobedient and rebellious generation a generation that set not their heart aright whose spirit was not faithful vnto God And dehorting them from their fathers steps To day saith Dauid if you wil heare Gods voice harden not your harts as in the day of coÌ„tention as in the day of temptation in the wildernes where your fathers tempted proued me though they had seen my workes Fourtie yeares did I contend with that generation and saide they are a people that erre in heart they haue not knowen my wayes By Zacharie he saith Be ye not as your fathers vnto whome the former Prophetes haue cried saying Thus saith the Lord of hostâ—â— turne you now from your euill waies and from your wicked workes but they would not heare nor harken vnto me saith the Lord. And what you count deuotion humilitie for the people to follow their fathers that God himself calleth defection conspiracie I haue protested vnto your fathers euer since I brought them out of the land of Aegypt to this day saying obey my voice Neuertheles they wold not obey nor incline their eare but euerie one walked in the stubbernesse of his wicked heart And of the children doing as their fathers did he saith A coÌ„spiracie is found among the men of Iudah and among the inhabitants of Ierusalem They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers that refused to heare my wordes With what face then can you deale so earnestly with the simple subiectes of this Land to regard neither God nor his word but only to runne the race of their Elders seeing God so straitly commaunded the children of Israel to beware the pathes and presidentes of their forefathers Phi. We must beware their wickednesse Theo. Then may they be wicked and so no paterns for vs or any others to follow Phi. The Iewes were wicked Theo. What charter can you shew that christians shall not be the like Phi. Hell gates shall not preuaile against the church of Christ. Theo. No more did they preuaile against the chosen and elect of Israel but the greatest number and gaiest men are not alwaies the church of God The foundation of God standeth sure and hath this zeale the Lord knoweth who are his Of his elect which are his true church our Sauiour hath pronounced it is not possible they should bee deceiued the rest haue no such priuilege yea rather the holy Ghost forewarneth that all besides the elect shall bee deceiued Our Sauiour our saith There shal arise false Christes and false Prophetes and shal shew great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they should deceiue the verie elect The rest then which are not elect they shall deceiue And so S. Paul speaking of the verie same deceiuers addeth whose comming is by the working of Satan with all power and in all deceiueablenesse of vnrighteousnesse among them that perish because they receiued not the law of the truth that they might be saued And therefore God shall sende them strong delusion that they should beleeue lies that al they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And S. Iohn speaking of the beast that made warre with the Saintes had power ouer euerie kindred and tongue and nation saith Therefore all that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life So that the visible church consisting of good bad elect and reprobate hath no such promise but she may erre only the chosen of Christ which are the true members of his body properly called his church they shall not erre vnto perdition and those if you could point them out with your finger the people might safely follow otherwise if you set men to follow the rest of their fathers be they neuer so many neuer so graue neuer so godly to your seeming you bid them take the wide gate and broade way that leadeth to destruction because there were many that entered it before them Phi. Will you make vs beleeue that our fathers are perished Theo. Who are perished is not for vs to pronounce They were his seruants that iudgeth iustly neither haue we to medle with their doome but to looke to our owne yet this we can assure you that many be called and few chosen And therefore if you aduise the people to imitate the multitude of their fathers you teach them the right way to hell And though wee may not iudge of your fathers yet knowe you for a certainty that God is not afraide to iudge them and condemne them if they refused his truth as you do Neither is it any such daungerous doctrine to say that our forefathers haue sinned and displeased God as you woulde make it the godly haue alwaies confessed it of their fathers and not spared to tell the wicked so much to their fates Dauid slandered not his forefathers when he said We haue sinned with our fathers we haue done wickedly Our fathers vnderstood not thy wonders in Aegypt neither remembred they the multitude of thy mercies but rebelled at the Sea euen at the red Sea Daniell knewe what he pronounced when hee confessed O Lord to vs belongeth open shame to our kinges to our Princes and to our fathers because wee haue sinned against thee Ezechiah was not ashamed to say Our fathers haue trespassed and done euill in the eyes of the Lord our God and haue forsaken him and turned their backes And loe our fathers are fallen by the sword Iohn told the Pharisees to their faces their fathers were vipers and
and euerlasting God Howe are you not afraide to defend the worshipper when God accurseth the maker of any such carued or molten Image as being an abomination in his sight Doth your cunning or conscience serue you to gaine-say the manifest voice of God himselfe speaking by his Prophet To whom now will you liken me that I should be like him saith the holy one Phi. We be not so foolish as to thinke the shape of a mortal man resembleth the incomprehensible substance of the deitie Theo God graunt you be not Doe you then acknowledge that euery likenesse made with hands to represent the God of heauen is an Idole Phi. Euerie likenes what meane you by that Theo. I meane the likenes of man woman or of any other creature in heauen or earth Phi. It is somwhat hard to call the Image of God an Idol Theo. To call that an Idol which man maketh for an Image vnto God since God himselfe refuseth euery such likenes and pronounceth it accursed and abominable is no hardnes at al. Yea rather to giue it a better name were to make God a liar and in spite of his spirite to saue the Iewes and Gentils from that Idolatrie wherewith they were charged and for the which they be condemned in the scriptures For the things which they worshipped they thought to be the Images of God and in that respect did they honour not them so much as God by them supposing them to be his Images Phi. The Gentils and Iewes that were Idolaters worshipped false Gods and not the Image of the true God Theo. Their false Gods were the workes of mens hands made to resemble in their conceit the true God The children of Israell did not thinke their golden Calfe to bee a God but minding to haue some monument of God alwaies in their sight to stirre them to deuotion they made choice of a calfe because they had seene such Images set vp to God in Egypt where the people seruing God in that visible shape were wealthie and mightie by which blessings they coniectured God was wel pleased with the seruice of Egypt and therfore to testifie their thankefulnesse for their deliuâ—rance they erected an Image vnto god their deliuerer and proclaimed an holy day not to the calfe but vnto the Lord. The mother of Micheala vowed siluer vnto the Lord to make a grauen and molten Image Which she after perfected and named Teraphim building a chapel and entertaining a Leuite for it in the honor no doubt of him to whom the siluer was first dedicated The Iewes in all their generations knewe there was no god but one and yet seeing the Gentils that serued god in the shape of a man or likenes of other creatures to prosper and liue at hearts ease and oftentimes to be Lordes ouer them that were the people of god they fell to the manners of the nations round about them and honored as they thought the true god of Israell with bodily shapes and figures whereas god by his prophets notwithstanding their good intentions reiected and reproued that their seruice as doone to strange gods and Idols Yea Baal it selfe which the Scripture detesteth as a most infamous Idole was nothing els but a corporall Image erected vnto god by which the people dreampt they serued and pleased god as may be gathered by Osee where god promiseth to receiue Israell vnto fauour and to cause them to cease from their Idolatrous dishonouring him with the name of Baal At that day saith the Lord thou shalt call me no more Baal and by Esay where god denieth the Images that were set vppe for him to bee like vnto him The very heathens were not so blind as to beleeue the things which they made with their hands were gods neither did they set them vp as gods but rather as Images vnto god whom they thought to bee delighted with that kinde of visible and voluntarie seruice Sainct Ambrose saith of them Gentes lignum adorant quia Dei Imaginem putant The heathen worship their peeces of wood because they thinke them to bee the Images of God Themselues could answere the Christians in that sort as Celsus in Origen Quod si vel lapidem negent vel lignum vel aes vel aurum Deum esse ridiculum profecto erit id sapere Quis enim eà nisi stolidus quispiam pro Dijs habuerit Sed Deorum sunt ista vel sacra vel effigies quaedam If the Christians denie things made of wood stone brasse or gold to be God we graunt that were a ridiculous opinion Who but a starke foole did euer account them for Gods Yet these are seruices vnto the Goddes or else certain resemblances of the Goddes So Lactantius witnesseth of them Non ipsa inquiunt timemus sed eos ad quorum Imaginem ficta quorum nominibus consecrata sunt The heathen vse to say we stand not in awe of these Images but of them after whose likenes they be figured in whose names they be dedicated Their wordes in Clemens are Nos ad honorem inuisibilis Dei visibiles Imagines adoramus Wee worship the images which we may see in the honour of that God which can not be seene And in S. Austen Nec simulachrum nec Daemonium colo sed per effigiem corporalem eius rei signum intueor quam colere debeo I worship neither the Image nor the Diuel but by a corporal figure I behold the signe of that which I ought to worshippe Saint Paul chargeth all the Gentiles not with hauing new Goddes or other Goddes but for turning the trueth of God vnto a lie to witte the glorie of the incorruptible GOD to the similitude of the Image of a corruptible man which they made and honoured as the Images of the true GOD. Grosser idolatrie than the which can not bee committed For if to worship the creatures them-selues which are the workes of Gods handes and wherein his eternall power and diuinitie doe appeare were palpable Idolatrie howe inexcusable is it to serue the woorkes of our owne handes and the shadowes of those creatures prepared by art and applied by our vaine conceite to resemble the creator you must therefore either graunt euery likenes made with handes and set vp for an image vnto God to be an idole or else excuse both Iewes and Gentiles from idolatrie which I trust you will not Phi. The gentiles knew not God and for that cause could set vp no Image vnto God but vnto their owne ignorant imagination of God Theo. And you that presume to knowe god if you set vp such images vnto god as the gentiles did which knewe him not you bee ranker Idolaters than they were The more knowledge you haue of god the more sure you bee that those thinges made with handes bee no way like vnto god and that hee vtterly detesteth and expressely forbiddeth both the making and the reuerencing of all
fastned on the Apostles and Churches of Christ against al trueth the legates of Adrian in this very Synode conuince of a manifest and mightie corruption in the wordes that be most materiall for your purpose Phi. Did the legates of Adrian contradict their masters allegation Theo. The same place being rehearsed by Demetrius a Notarie out of the booke it selfe which the legates of Rome offered in the councel sounded farre otherwise than Adrian had cited it For where Adrian in his letters alleaged Hoc enim traditum nobis ab Apostolis non est prohibendum This being deliuered vs by the Apostles must not be prohibited the booke which they read had Hoc enim nobis a sanctis Apostolis non est prohibitum this is not forbidden vs by the Apostles It is one thing to say The Apostles did deliuer it an other to say The Apostles did not prohibite it Betweene these two reports if you weigh them wâ—ll you shall finde good difference Phi. If you like not the former reading take the latter and that in sight is true For the Apostles in particular woordes did not prohibite the making and worshipping of holy Images Theo. They needed not God by his Lawe long before had doone it very sufficiently and that standing in full force there needed no newe prohibition since no authoritie coulde bee greater than his who had already forbidden it And yet by your leaue the Apostles did not onely propose the whole Lawe of God as holy iust and good but they namely touch the seconde precept which wee reason of Saint Paul confessing the Iewes did well according to the Lawe to abhorre Idoles and that the Gentiles were giuen ouer to their vile affections for turning the glorie of God to the Image of a man and S. Iohn requiring all christians to beware the like in sayâ—ng Babes keepe your selues from Idoles Phi. FroÌ„ idoles but not from images Theo. An Image made with hands if it be set vp to God himselfe worshipped is an idole as I haue proued therfore you must either renouÌ„ce your adoring of images which your forged Basil would establish or else suffer theÌ„ to stand for Idoles from which S. Iohn deterreth vs. Phi. S. Augustine saith it is not an Idole except it bâ— Dei falsi alieni simulachrum the image of a false strange God And in that respect you do the Images of Christ his Saints great wrong to call them idoles Theo. S. Augustine in that place disputeth how Gedeons Ephod should be said in the scripture to be fornication in the people the destruction of Gedeons house since it was as he thought no likenes of any thing against the lawe but an imitation of the Priests apparell prescribed in the Law And albeit to interprete himself what he ment when he said it was no idole he addeth by way of explicatioÌ„ that is no shape of any false or strange God yet doth he not limit the word to that continual vse but rather granteth as his conclusioÌ„ sheweth that there were mo kindes of Idoles that this though it were a garment in the law not an Image against the law yet was it in sort an Idole so his words import FactuÌ„ est Gedeon domini eius in scandolum quia hoc quoddaÌ„ genus Idoli quodaÌ„modo erat This was the ruine of Gedeon his house because it was in some sense a kind of idole Tertullian wil tel you the word is general noteth the likenes or shape of any thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 graecè formam sonat ab â—oper diminutionem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aequé apud nos formulam fecit Igitur omnis forma vel formula Idolum se dici exposcit This word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greeke signifieth a shape whence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is deriued as a diminutiue and with vs signifieth any likenes therefore euery shape or likenes may wel bee called an Idole Isidor repeating Tertullians words as worth the noting addeth of his owne Idolum est simulachrum quod humana effigie factum consecratum est An Idole is an Image made after the shape of a man and dedicated vnto some religious vse Philand Nay dedicated vnto some false God and then it is rightly an Idole Theoph. But Isidore sayth generally that an image consecrated is an idole and consecration is the addicting of any thing to holy and diuine vses Phi. That is not Isidores meaning Theo. Those be Isidores words Phi. You heard S. Augustine say it must bee the Image of a false GOD. Theo. S. Augustine doth not tie the word to that signification as you heard by his owne confession and yet if you take false and straunge Gods as S. Augustine doeth your adoration of painted and carued Images will prooue them to bee false Christes and your selues to bee worshippers of false Goddes For if you worshippe Christ not after his will but after your conceite you woorshippe nowe not Christ but the fiction and imagination of your own heartes and that is a false Christ as Saint Augustine learnedly and truely teacheth Quisquis talem cogitat Deum qualis non est Deus alienum Deum vtique falsum in cogitatione portat Whosoeuer supposeth God to bee that hee is not beareth a straunge and false GOD in his cogitation This else-where hee calleth the Idole of the heart not onely in Pagans but also in Christians Of the false fansies that Pagans had of GOD hee sayth Prius id agimus vt Idola in eorum cordibus confringamus The first thing that wee labour is to breake downe those Idoles in their heartes Of the wrong imaginations of christians hee saith Quae omnia Idola cordis sunt all which are Idoles of the heart Phi. A false opinion of his essence is an Idole in the heart of man Theo. And so is a wrong perswasion of his will or woorship Hierom sayth Vsque hodie in domo Dei quae interpretatur ecclesia siue in corde animaque credentium ponitur Idolum quando nouum dogma constituitur Euen to this present day an Idole is set vp in the house of God which is interpreted to be the Church or else in the hearts and soules of the beleeuers when a newe point of Doctrine is deuised And therefore generally resolueth of all errors Quod omne dogma contrarium veritati adoret opera manuum suarum constituat Idola in terra sua that euery opinion repugnant to truth worshippeth the works of his own hands and erecteth an Idole in the land where it is By the workes of their owne hands hee meaneth the deuises of their hearts as else where he sheweth Haeretici perdito mentis iudicio adorant Idola quae de corde suo finxerunt Heretikes with their wicked resolution of mynd or else void of sense and feeling of mynde adore the Idoles which they haue framed in
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
as it is for the precept is not written though the causes and consequents may bee iustified by that which is written And this is not straunge with Saint Austen to call that an vnwritten Tradition which him-selfe confesseth may be warranted by the scriptures Phi. What haue wee here One and the same Tradition confessed by saint Augustine to bee both written and vnwritten Theoph. One and the same Tradition I say confessed to bee written and yet warranted by the Scriptures Phi. That were newes Theo. None at all Goe no farther than your second example of rebaptizing and you shall see it to be true S. Augustine calleth it an vnwritten Tradition or Custome of the church in many places Hee sayth expressely of it Quam consuetudinem credo ex Apostolica Traditione venientem sicut multa non inueniuntur in Literis eorum c. Which custome I think came from the apostles as many other things that are not found in their writings And againe of the very same Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt The Apostles in deede commaunded nothing in that case as also there bee many thinges which the whole Church obserueth though they be not found written Phi. That we knowe to be true neuer spend more time about it but let vs heare where S. Austen saith this Custome is also warranted by the scriptures Theo. You can not misse it if you read the very same bookes where the other is witnessed Now saith he lest I seeme to dispute this matter by humane reasons because the darkenes of this question draue great men and men endued with great charitie the bishops that were in former ages of the church before the schisme of Donatus to doubt and striue but without breach of vnitie ex euangelio profero certa Documenta quibus Domino adiuuante demonstro Out of the Gospel I bring sure groundes by Gods helpe to make proofe thereof And hauing disputed it a while We follow that saith he which the custome of the church hath alwaies obserued a plenarie councel cōfirmed And the reasons and testimonies of scriptures on both sides being throughly weighed I may say we follow that which trueth hath declared And repeating the euidence of his side he saith it may be vnderstood by the former custome of the Church by the strength of a generall councell that followed by so many so weightie testimonies of the holy scriptures by manifolde instructions out of Cyprians owne workes and very plaine arguments of trueth And therefore drawing to an end he saith It might perhaps suffice that our reasons being so oft repeated and diuersly debated and handled in disputing and the Documents of the holy Scriptures being added and so many testimonies of Cyprian him-selfe concurring iam etiam corde tardiores quantum existimo intelligunt by this time the weaker and duller sort of men as I thinke vnderstande that the baptisme of Christ can not bee violated by no peruersenesse of the partie that giueth it or taketh it and therefore must not bee iterated Thus in one and the selfesame worke you see S. Austen auouching it to be a Tradition not written and yet confirmed by manifest scriptures Phi. I heare him say so but I see not how it can be Theo. You will not for feare you shoulde see your selues conuinced of an error it is otherwise plaine enough The thing it selfe is not written but receiued by Tradition mary the grounds of it be so layd in the scriptures that it may thence bee rightly concluded The like we say for the baptisme of infants the precept it selfe is not written nor any example of it in the scriptures but it was deliuered vnto the church by tradition from the Apostles mary it so dependeth on those principles of faith which bee written that it may bee fairely deduced from them and fully proued by them Phi. By Tradition onely hee and other condemned Heluidius the heretike for denying the perpetual virginitie of our Lady Theo. Your stoare fayleth you when you flee from fayth and hope in GOD to examine Ioseph and Marie that you may picke out somewhat betweene them to impeache the perfection of the Scriptures That Christ was borne of a virgine vndefiled is an high point of fayth and plainely testified in the Scriptures That after the birth of her Sonne she was not knowen of her husband is a reuerend and seemely truth preserued in the Church by witnesses woorthie to bee trusted but no part of fayth needefull to bee recorded in the Scriptures Phi. Saint Augustine sayth it is Integra fide credendum est With an vpright fayth we must beleeue that blessed Mary the mother of God and Christ was a virgin in conceiuing a virgin when she was deliuered and remained a virgin after the birth of her sonne And we must beware the blasphemie of Heluidius which sayde shee was a virgin before but not after the birth of Christ. Theo. Grate not on these thinges which were better to bee honoured with silence than discussed with diligence The booke which you bring is not S. Augustines It was found vnder Tertullians name as wel as vnder Augustines though Tertullian himselfe bee twise there noted for an heretike and chalenged the first time for that very error which S. Augustine in his true booke of heresies doeth acquite him from And yet these wordes Credendum est Mariam virginem concepisse virginem genuisse post partum virginem permansisse Wee must beleeue that the mother of Christ was a pure virgin when she conceiued when shee brought forth his sonne and after she was deliuered do not touch your question as they are defended by S. Augustine in his vndoubted woorkes to bee part of our fayth but onely that shee was a pure virgin after his birth notwithstanding his birth And therefore hee sayth Quisi velper nascentem corrumperetur eius integritas iam non ille de virgine nasceretur If Christes birth euen when hee was borne shoulde haue violated the virginitie of his mother then had hee not beene borne of a virgin So that as shee conceiued the Lorde and was still a virgin so shee was deliuered of him and her selfe yet a virgin that is not onely without the knowledge of man but also without all hurt of her body she remaining after shee was deliuered of her childe as perfect a virgin in body as shee was before she conceiued him And this to be the right meaning of those wordes Post partum virgo permansit shee remayned a virgin after the birth of her child when her virginitie must bee vrged for a poynt of fayth the sermons extant vnder the name of S. Augustine do clearly confesse Nec dubites Mariam virginem mansisse post partum quia qualiter hoc factum sit non humanus sermo neque sensus potest comprehendere Neuer doubt but Marie remained a virgin after the birth of her childe although
neither mans speach nor witte can comprehende howe it was done And againe Virgo cum parturit virgo post partum Vacuatur vterus infans excipitur nec tamen virginitas violatur Shee was a virgin when shee was deliuered and a virgin after She was deliuered her child borne and shee for all that a virgin The like we find in sundry other of those sermons Phi. But Heluidius was noted as an heretike by S. Augustine and others for saying that our Lady was knowen of Ioseph her husband after the birth of our Sauiour Theo. The Fathers might reiect him as an heretike for his impudent abusing the Scriptures to build a falshoode vpon them which was not contained in them and if they detested it as a rash and wicked slaunder for him against manifest trueth to blemish that chosen vessell which the holy Ghost had ouershadowed and the son of God sanctified with his presence we neither blame them nor mislike their doings But yet they neuer charged the Scriptures with imperfection as you doe S. Hierome purposely writing against Heluidius vseth the fulnes of the Scriptures as his best argument to defend her virginitie Vt haec quae scripta sunt non negamus ita ea quae non sunt scripta renuimus Natum esse Deum de Virgine credimus quia legimus Mariam Nupsisse post partum non credimus quia non legimus As we deny not those things which are written so we reiect those things which are not written That God was borne of a Virgine wee beleeue because we read That the same virgine Mary became a wife after the birth of her son we beleeue it not because we read it not S. Augustine alleageth Scripture for it with what successe I will not iudge If neither of these quiet your contentious spirits our answer shal be that when you make iust proofe that this is a poinct not of trueth which we graunt but of faith which you vrge then will wee not faile to shewe it consequent to that which is written You were wont to obiect other pointes of Religion as proued by tradition and not by Scripture amongest which you set the Godhead of the holy Ghost and his proceeding from the Father and the Sonne But I trust by this time you be either stilled in them or ashamed of them Phi. Not so neither For As we acknowledge this article to be most true so we are sure you haue no expresse Scripture for it Theo. Are you well aduised when to spite vs you teach the people that the highest mysteries of their faith cannot be warranted by the Scriptures Perceaue you not what a wrong it is to the spirite of GOD to holde his Diuinitie by Tradition and not by the word of God What ignorance is this if it be no worse to say that Athanasius Dydimus Basil Nazianzen Ambrose Cyril and Augustine in their special Treaties of this very point haue alleaged no Scriptures to confirme the Godhead of the Holy Ghost Phi. We speake not of them but of you Theo. As if in a common case of faith the Scriptures were not common to vs with them If they had Scriptures for it we haue if we haue none than had they none Phi. Expresse Scripture they had none Theo. Doe you plaie with idle wordes in so weightie matters of Christian faith Euident and plaine scriptures they had where the holy Ghost was called God what is expresse Scripture if that be not Phi. They had no such scripture Theo. Had they not Turne your booke a little better you shall find they had Glorificate Deum portate in corpore vestro Quem Deum nisi spiritum sanctum cuius corpora nostra dixerat esse Templum Glorifie God saith the Apostle and beare him in your bodie What God but the Holy ghost whose Temple before he called our bodies And againe When Peter had said durst thou make a lie to the holy Ghost Ananias thinking he had lied vnto men Peter sheweth the Holy Ghost to be God by and by adding thou hast not lied vnto men but vnto God These two places the same father vrgeth against the Arrians as very plain scriptures Glorificate ergo Deum in corpore vestro Vbi dilucidè ostendit Deum esse spiritum sanctum glorificandum scilicet in corpore nostro Et quod Ananiae dixit Petrus Apostolus Ausus es mentiri spiritui sancto Atque ostendens Deum esse spiritum sanctum non es inquit hominibus mentitus sed Deo Glorifie therefore God in your body saieth Paul Where very manifestly hee sheweth the holy Ghost to bee God which must be glorified in our body as in his Temple And that which Peter the Apostle saide to Ananias Durst thou lie vnto the holy Ghost And declaring the holy Ghost to be God thou hast not lied vnto men saith he but vnto God Ambrose taketh them for euident scriptures Quod praemiserit Spiritum addiderit non es mentitus hominibus sed Deo necesse est in spiritu sancto vt vnitatem diuinitatis esse intelligas Nec solum in hoc loco euidenter sancti spiritus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est diuinitatem Scriptura testatur sed etiam ipse Dominus dixit in Euangelio quod Deus spiritus est In that Peter first named the Spirite and presently saide thou hast lied not vnto men but vnto God wee can not choose but vnderstand the holy Ghost to be God Neither in this place only doth the Scripture euidently witnesse the Godhead of the holy Ghost but also in the Gospel the Lord himselfe saith that the spirite is God Nazianzen saith these and such like be expresse scriptures and that if you doubt thereof you be very grosse headed They which knewe the only blasphemie which is vttered against the Spirite to be irremissible and gaue Ananias and Saphira that horrible reproche for lying vnto the holy Ghost what doe they seeme to thee openly to professe the Spirite to be God or no How dull headed art thou and without al sense of the spirite if thou doubt thereof or needest farther teaching By so many names so forcible and expresly recorded in the Scriptures the holy Ghost is called Amongst those expresse names numbring this for one of the chiefest and clearest that the holy Ghost was called God as the words before directly witnesse Phi. His proceeding from the Father and the sonne cannot bee proued by scripture though his Godhead may Theo. How then came it first to be beleeued by Tradition or by scripture Phi. Certeinly not by scripture Theo. Your tongues be so vsed to vntruthes that your certainties be litle worth the Church of Christ receiued her faith concerning the proceeding of the Holy Ghost from the father and the sonne not by Tradition but by scripture Saint Augustine saith Firmely beleeue and no whit doubt the same holy Ghost which is one Spirit of the
Your later allegation is grouÌ„ded on the former conuinceth your author to be but a yong father in respect of S. Basil. For where S. Basil died before Meletius your bastard Basil rehearseth Meletius as a Bishop of ancient memorie dead long before his time In super MeletiuÌ„ illuÌ„ admiranduÌ„ in eadeÌ„ fuisse sententia narrant qui cuÌ„ illo vixerunt Sed quid opus est vetera coÌ„memorare Immo nuÌ„c qui sunt Orientales Moreouer Meletius that admirable Bishop was of the same opinion as they that liued with him report But what neede I repeate auncient times The East Bishops which are at this day c. Now the true S. Basill not onely liued at the same time with Meletius but was made Deacon by him and wrate many letters to him and departed this life before him as the church storie witnesseth affirming that Helladius S. Basils successour and Meletius were both present at the second general councell at Constantinople vnder Theodosius and that must needes be when S. Basill was dead Phi. You did wel to discredit the place it were otherwise able to ouerthrowe all your new doctrine Theo. Then you do not well to build the antiquitie of your religion on this and such other apparent forgeries but were the places not forged they could do you no such seruice as you spake of in the question which we now handle yea rather they confirme that which we affirme that Things necessary to saluation are comprised in the Gospell Phi. Many traditions were receiued from the Apostles without writing which are not in the Gospel Theo. You must also proue those traditions to be necessary to saluation before you can conclude out of this place any thing against our assertioÌ„ Phi. As though the Apostles deliuered thinges which were not necessary to saluation Theo. The christian faith they deliuered in writing the rest they left vnwritten because those things which were no parts of faith were deliuered to the church of Christ for decency not for necessity Phi. For decency what a cauill that is Theo. The Traditions which your counterfet Basill here rehearseth as descending from the Apostles are no such deepe mysteries of religion as he pretendeth That the people should euery sunday and likewise betweene Easter and Whitsuntide pray standing is that any point of faith or help to saue their soules The words of inuocatioÌ„ at the Lords supper the praiers before after which the Greeke church vsed haue you not long since left them or to say the trueth did you euer accept them for catholike Singing with the crosse turning to the East thrise dipping him that is baptized and annointing him after with oyle bee these essentiall parts of Baptisme or rather externall Rites declaring the power and vertue of that Sacrament Your author himselfe will tell you they be not within the compasse of that faith which is common to all ChristiaÌ„s and must be rightly beleeued of all that will be saued For shewing the cause why they might not be written What things saith he such as were not baptized might not behold how could it be fit they should be publikely caried about in writing And againe The Apostles and fathers which prescribed certaine rites in the first beginning of the church reserued to these mysteries their dignitie by silence and secrecie For it is no mysterie which is open to the eares of the people and vulgar sort Now things necessary to saluatioÌ„ must openly be preached to the people and be fully conceiued of them and stedfastly proâ—essed by theÌ„ before they can be saued These things therefore be not of that sort but are rather excluded from necessitie because they were deliuered vnder secrecie Phi. But S. Basil or whosoeuer he be that wrote that booke saith vtraque parem vim habent ad pietatem Things vnwritten haue equal force to godlines with things written Theo. He saith not that all things vnwritten but vtraque both sortes haue like force to godlines not that dumbe ceremonies or outward gestures haue equall force with the word of God to lighten the minde conuert the soule and clense the heart it were arrogant blasphemie so to say but amongst things vnwritten he numbreth the praiers of the church proportioned by the word and hauing in them the very contents of the worde and also the Creede and profession of the faith it selfe whereby wee beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost in truth godlinesse equiualent with the scriptures and in substaunce the very same that is witnessed by the scriptures Both these your Author in that place counteth for things vnwritten and these wee graunt haue equall force to godlinesse with those things that are written Phi. In effect they be all one with those things that are writteâ— Theo. That maketh his speâ—ch the truer which otherwise were absurd and vngodly Phi. Is it not a wâ—lie shift that sometimes you will admit no traditions and at other times when you bee hardly pressed fayth scriptures and all shall bee traditions with you Theo. Is it not a wilier that hauing framed to your selues a religion without the scriptures you woulde nowe fortifie the same by tradition against the scriptures But you may not so preuaile Wee haue the warrant of Saint Paul and the catholike consent of Christes Church that our faith shoulde depende on the word of God and since God speaketh not now but in his scriptures it is euident that our fayth in all pointes must bee directed and ruled by the scriptures Stand not brabling with vs about the worde Tradition which is very doubtfull and diuersely taken amongest the fathers Bring some faire and true demonstration for that which you holde as reason is you should to counterpâ—iâ—e so many proofes in a matter of such importance or else admit our assertion to be true Philand That wee can doe and yet not hurte our cause Theophil Wee knowe you can doe much You can bouldly call your selues catholikes though you bee vnshamefast heretikes and tell the people you teach nothing but antiquitie when the chiefest pointes of your religion bee meere nouelties and barbarous absurdityes Philand You can exemplifie a lye the best that euer I hearde Theophil Keepe that praise as proper to your selfe I will not disturbe your profession Touching the matter in question whether I speake ought that is vntrue let the reader iudge You will haue your religion and doctrine to bee Catholike that is confirmed by the Scriptures and professed in all places of all persons at all tymes euen from the first beginning wheresoeuer the Church of Christ hath beene receiued And when wee come to see the specialities wee finde you to swarue not onely from the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers but euen from those later ages and Churches which you woulde seeme to followe and to haue gotten you a religion of your owne without Councell Canon antiquitie or
reuerent estimation regard of them that they be not despised or abused although they be but signes So that water in baptism and the creatures of breade and wine in the Lordes supper which are the two examples here mentioned are to be reuerenced as things that be sacred by the word and ordinaÌ„ce of God but not to be adored and honored for the things themselues whose signes they are that were a miserable seruitude or rather the right death of the soule as Austen noteth And that the first teachers of truth remoued al Images as vnprofitable signes to serue God with the words before do plainly shew For speaking of the difference between the Iewes and the Gentils when they should be conuerted vnto Christ he saith ChristiaÌ„ liberty finding the Iewes vnder profitable signes to wit the rites Ceremonies of the Lawe did interprete the meaning of them and so by directing the people to the things themselues deliuered them from the seruitude of the signes but finding the Gentiles vnder vnprofitable signes for that they worshipped Images either as Gods or as the signes and resemblaunces of Gods ipsa signa fruâ—trauit remouitque omnia shee wholy remoued and frustrated the signes themselues that is shee would not suffer them to serue the true God with any such signes as bodily shapes and Images were Your honouring of Images is reproued as you see and not releeued by S. Augustines Rule And since the Lawe of God expressely and â—treitly chargeth you not so much as to bowe your bodies or knees to the likenesse of any thing in heauen or earth which is made with handes consult your owne consciences whether you may with your respects frustrate or with your routes ouerbeare the distinct and direct voice of God himselfe in his own Church And if you be not giuen ouer into a reprobate sense you wil say no. Now that which is against the Law of God can neither be Christian nor Catholike Your Doctrine therefore of bowing and kneeling to Images is repugnant both to the precepts of God and to the generall auncient resolution of Christs church your adoring them with diuine honour is a sacrilegious and flagitious as well noueltie as impietie Phi. You must not looke that we should defend the sayings doings of all that haue takeÌ„ part with the church of Rome If Thomas waded too far in worshipping Images if Gerson mistooke S. Augustine if the later Councell of Nice denied or strained some of the ancient Fathers you must not chalenge vs for their ouerâ—ightes The. We chalenge you for vaunting your selues to be Catholikes when in deede you doe nothing but smooth and sleike the corruptions and inuentions of later ages against the right ancient faith of Christs church The discent of Images with their adoration how late it began how often it varied how far at length it swarued froÌ„ the Primatiue original profession of the christiaÌ„ catholik faith we haue spent somtime to examine Let vs now approch to your praiers in a straÌ„ge toung which haue a great deal lesse shew of catholicism thaÌ„ images had yet are as egerly defended by you as images were Phi. In the Latine toung we haue praiers in a strange toung we haue none you rather that haue turned scriptures church seruice secretes for your pleasures into the English tongue make your praiers in a strange and vnwonted speach to catholik earesâ— The. To English meÌ„ the English toung is not strange Phi. I know they vnderstand it but I call it strange because they were not woont to haue the publike praiers of the Church in their mother toung Theo. In cases of religion we must respect not what men haue but what they should haue beene vsed to Cyprian saith well Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas erroris est Custome without trueth is but the long continuance of error so Tertullian Quodcunque aduersus veritatem sapit hoc erit haeresis etiam vetus consuetudo Whatsoeuer is against the trueth it must bee counted heresie though it be an old Custom The Councell of Carthage where Cyprian was resolued thuâ— The Lord saith in the Gospel I am trueth he said not I am custom Trueth therefore appearing let custom yeeld to truth Phi. That councel erred in neglecting the old custom which the church obserued Theo. But yet their generall assertion which I alleage was so strong that S. Augustine saith to those very wordes Plane respondeo quis dubitet veritatis manifestae debere consuetudinem cedere I plainly answere who doubteth but that custom must yeeld to the trueth appearing Phi. Neither doe we doubt of that but how proue you this to be a manifest trueth that the people of this Land must haue their diuine seruice in the English tongue Theo. It is the manifest precept of him that said I am trueth and witnessed in the Scripture which is the worde of trueth Philan. In what place there Theo. Make not your selfe so great a stranger in the Scriptures as if you knew not the place Phi. You meane the 14. Chapter of the first epistle which S Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth Theo. I doe what say you to it Phi. Mary this we say The reader may take a tast in this one point of your deceitfull dealing abusing the simplicitie of the popular by peruerse application of Gods holy word vpon some smale similitude equiuocatioÌ„ of certaine termes against the approued godly vse and trueth of the vniuersall Church for the seruice in the Latine or Greeke tongue which you ignorantly or rather wilfully pretend to be against this discourse of S. Paul touching strange tongues Theo. And hee that marketh your shifting and facing in this one point shall need no farther tast of your dealing Phi. If you like not that which we say refel it Theo. Can your selues tell what you say Phi. You shall well find that when we come to the matter Theo. First then heare what the Apostle saith and after you shal haue leaue to say what you will Instructing the Church of Corinth thus he saith And now brethren if I come to you speaking with strange tongues what shall I profite you If a truÌ„pet giue an vncertaine sound who wil prepare himself to the battel So likewise you by the tongue except you vtter words of easie vnderstanding how shal it be knoweÌ„ what is spoken For you shal speake in the aire There are for example so many kindes of tongues in the worlde and none of them is without sound Except I know the power and signification of the speach I shall be to him that speaketh barbarous and he that speaketh shall be barbarous to me Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue pray thâ—t he may interpret For if I pray in a tongue not vnderstood my spirite praieth but mine vnderstanding is without fruit What is it then I wil pray with the
saluation Your memory did not serue you to ioyn Mattins Euensong and Dirges to your Masse which you might haue doone with as good reason and as much trueth otherwise we had had al the Papists in Christendom promoted by one sentence of your Testament to so suddaine and perfect knowledge that they were able to vnderstand al your Latine seruice That you found would seeme a wonder in the eyes of all men learned and vnlearned and therefore you restraine the vnderstanding first to the Masse then to the ceremonies of the masse then to the sense of these ceremonies as when to stand when to kneele when to confesse when to adore when to come when to depart and all this no farther than may suffice for saluation and not in al of them but almost in euery Catholike or to say the trueth you know not in whom Surely this is a deepe insight that al your Catholikâ— if they be not learned haue in your masse to confesse if they could tell what when they see the Clerk kneele by the Priests side to adore when they see the host and chalice ouer the Priests head to stand when the Priest chaungeth his deske from one end of the altar to an other if they chauÌ„ce too see him to kneele when the sauÌ„ce bel ringeth once a yeare to come to receiue when masse is done and the priest in his Albe at other tunes to depart when he whippeth off his vestiment This is the best cunning that your formallest and forwardest Catholikes haue if they be not learned in the Latine tongue The rude simple people of your side they do as they see their neighbours and that is all the skil they haue in your ceremonies as for answering and saying Amen they must pray for those that can your parish Clerke can keepe his kewe by often vse otherwise neither he nor the most of your Priests vnderstand what they say This is all the edification your masse bringeth to the vnlearned hearers if this suffice for saluation S. Paul was out of the way to prefer fiue words spoken in the church with vnderstanding before ten thousand in a strange and vnknowen language Phi. If the people say Amen it is enough Theo. If they know not what is said they may not say Amen Phi. That is your error Theo. We are content to hold that error so long as we haue the precise words of S. Paul for it How shal he that supplieth the room of the vnlearned say AmeÌ„ seeing he knoweth not what thou saist It is not enough to mark the gestures of him that saith masse nor to heare the saunce bel ring nor to follow the Quire when they sing Amen the people must know what is said before they may giue their consents and therfore except they vnderstand the praiers of the Church well they may kneele and stand come and goe as often as they liâ—t but Amen by S. Pauls Rule they may not answere Phi. They could not in those daies answere Amen so wel as our hearers can for that they had no such rites to direct them when to say Amen as we haue Theo. As though it had beene an hard matter for the Apostle to haue willed the speaker to hold vp his finger or giue some other signe at the end of his praier and all the people to say Amen saue that the holy Ghost would prescribe not gestures for men to gaze at as on stages but words for them to heare and vnderstand that the heart might be ioyned with the lips in praying vnto God and perceiue the trueth of that which was spoken afore the tongue pronounced Amen Phi. I tell you it is not necessarie to vnderstand our praiers Theo. I tell you that if Satan himselfe were clothed in a friers weede he could not lay a fairer foundation for impietie and Apostasie than this is Phi. Neuer think to fray vs with words we be no children nor fooles Theo. If you were your sinne were the lesse but nowe you are without excuse It is the commaundement of God it is the Apostles Doctrine it is our Christian dutie without it the praiers which we make be fruitlesse vaine and barbarous and yet you say it is not necessarie S. Paul hauing prescribed this Rule to the Churches of Corinth that nothing should be doone at their meetings neither in preaching nor praying but that which might profite edifie euen the vulgar and simpler sort addeth If any man think himselfe to be spirituall let him acknowledge that the things which I write vnto you are the commandements of the Lord. The Ephesians he teacheth to be filled with the spirit and to sing and tune Psalmes in their harts to the Lord. Now the heart doth not sing except it vnderstand For the sound or voice of the hart is vnderstanding as S. Augustine very wel obserueth coÌ„menting vpon the psalmes of Dauid Beatus populus qui intelligit iubilationem Curramus ergo ad hanc beà titudinem intelligamus iubilationeÌ„ non eam sine intellectu fundamus Blessed is the people that vnderstand what they sing Let vs hasten to this blessednes let vs vnderstand what we sing let vs not poure forth songs that we vnderstand not To what purpose is it to sing and not to vnderstand what we sing that our voice should chant it not our heart Sonus enim cordis est intellectus The sounde or tune of the heart is vnderstanding And shewing that this is not only a Christian dutie which is a sufficient necessitie but euen the plain condition of our Creation that wee bee not like the beasts which sing they know not what he saith Hauing besought the Lord by this Psalm that he would clense vs from our secret faults We ought to vnderstand what this meaneth Vt humana ratione non quasi auium voce cantemus that we may sing with reason as men and not chatter like birdes For Owsels Parrets Crowes Pies and such other birds are often taught by men to sound that they know not marie to know what they sing is by Gods wil giuen not to birds but vnto men Therefore deere brethren that which we haue soung with one consent of voice we ought to know perceiue with a cleare heart So Chrysostome I will pray with the spirit saith Paul but I will pray also with vnderstanding I wil sing with the spirite but I wil sing also with vnderstanding Heereby the Apostle teacheth that we ought in our praiers to speake with our tongue and with all to haue our minds vnderstand what is spoken And Ambrose If the end of your meaning be to edifie the Church such things ought to be spoken in your prayers and blessings as the hearers may vnderstand For what profite commeth by thisâ— that any man should speak in a language which he alone vnderstandeth and he that heareth is no whit the better for it Therefore such an
one must keepe silence in the church and let them speake that may profite the hearers Idlely is that spoken which is not vnderstoode saith Cassiodorus Non solum cantantes sed etiam intelligentes Psallere debemus Nemo enim Sapienter quicquam facit quod non intelligit We ought to sing the psalms not only with tune of voice but also with vnderstanding of heart For no man doth any thing wifely which he vnderstandeth not The Bishops of Fraunce and Germanie assembled in Councel at Aquisgraine 816 yeres after Christ vnder Ludouike the Godly confesse the wordes of S. Paul bind vs to vnderstand the Psalmes which we sing in the Church Those that sing to the Lorde in his Church ought to haue their vnderstanding goe with their voice that the words of the Apostle may be verified I will sing with the spirit but I will also sing with vnderstanding And Let such be appointed in the Church to read sing that with the sweetnes of their reading and singing can affect the learned and instruct the vnlearned and let them seeke rather the edification of the people than the popular and vaine ostentation of their voices These Catholike fathers affirme the people ought to vnderstand the psalms and praiers of the church you say they need not Betweene these two doctrines there is asmuch difference as betweene daylight and darknes and yet you will be Catholiks whosoeuer say nay yea God himselfe commaundeth that neither exhortation nor supplication be made in the church but such as may edifie the hearers and bee vnderstood of the people you both doe and teach the contrary and yet you would be christians Phi. The simple sort can not vnderstand all Psalmes nor scarce the learned no though they be translated or read in knowen tongues men must not cease to vse them for all that when they are knowen to containe Gods holy praises Theo. Are you hired to betray your own follie or is the force of trueth so great that minding to conuince vs you confute your selues The simple vnderstand not all Psalmes nor scarce the learned wee thinke you speake right yet must not men cease to vse theÌ„ since they containe the prayses of God as true as the Gospell but now Sirs if the learned must vse them wheÌ„ they scarce vnderstand them why may not the simple heare them though they conceiue not al the mysteries of them Phi. As good not heare them as not vnderstand them Theo. All parts of the Psalmes they doe not vnderstand yet some they doe Why then doe you barre them from all since you dare not â—uouch them to bee ignorant of all Againe by continuall hearing them read alleaged and expounded in the Church they that are willing may easily increase their knowledge why then doe you cut the people not onely from that they knowe but also from that they might knowe from the meanes whereby to learne which is the high way to keepe them in ignorance the mother of all errors Phi. They will learne but litle God knoweth Theo. Graunt they would learne nothing yet are you bound to follow that meanes which God hath left to instruct them if their dulnes and peruersenes of heart be such that they will not learne the fault is theirs not yours their blood shal be on their own heads you are discharged where nowe by taking the comfort and instruction of their prayers from them you force them to neglect al as neuer likely to come by the knowledge of any one word and confirme them in their blindnes to your owne destruction and their imminent daunger if God bee not the more graâ—ious to them Phi. Prayers are not made to teache or increase knowledge but their speciall vse is to offer our heartes desires and wants to God and this euery catholike doeth for his condition whether hee vnderstande the woordes of his prayers or no. Theoph. Who tolde you that praiers are not made to teach or increase our knowledge The Psalmes of Dauid what are they but prayers and prayses offered vnto God and yet what Christian was euer so voyde of sense as to say they doe not teach nor increase knowledge or that they were not left vs to this ende and purpose that they shoulde teach and instruct vs in thinges pertaining to our saluation The prayers of the Godly throughout the scriptures though they were vttered in their wants and necessities yet were they written for our instruction And if you were not as destitute of grace as you be of truth you woulde soone perceiue that religious and Godly prayers doe mightily teach both learned vnlearned their dueties to God and his mercies to them Phi. In our prayers wee speake to God and not to men and that leadeth vs to â—ay they were not made to teach or increase knowledge Theo. The end of prayer in him that maketh it is to aske at Gods handes that he lacketh and to render thankes vnto God for that hee hath receiued but that the publike prayers of the Church do not first teach vs howe to pray and next instruct vs in many and most points of truth what to beleeue and confesse vnto God were meeter for Turkes and Infidels to defend than for such as you would seeme to be I meane both learned and Christian men Howbeit the pitch of our question is this whether they may be called prayers which wee make with our mouthes and not with our heartes and if they may not whether our heartes can pray without vnderstanding These be the matters that here we striue for and of these the first is prooued by the whole course of the Scriptures the seconde as well by the nature of man as by the word of God That God reiecteth the mouth without the heart as hypocrisie and no pietie our Sauiour telleth you when he saith O hypocrites Esay prophesied well of you in saying this people draweth neere to me with their mouth and honoureth me with the lippes but their heart is farre from me That our heart ioyneth not with our mouth when our vnderstanding wanteth is euident not onely by the scriptures which take the heart of man for his vnderstanding but by the education of our nature Dauid resembling those meÌ„ that haue not vnderstanding what they say or doe to the horse and Mule and â—usten allowing them when they pray they knowe not what no better place than among parrets and pies which is no place for men much lesse for those that would seeme to serue and honour God And what can be plainer than that vnderstanding is the proper action and first motion of mans heart which wanting in any thing that he doeth or sayeth his heart is also wanting since not an heart but an vnderstanding heart doeth make the difference betwixt man and beast Philand That is if they vnderstande not their owne woordes when they pray but they may bee ignorant of the
maners for that is his maine restriction and not euery custome which in time to come might or should happily bee newly deuised by some partes or members of the church but such as the whole church far neere without contradiction retained then when he spake as descending from the Apostles or Apostolike men And so the word hodie doth import though your Monkes haue left out the first syllable written die for hodie as the course of the sentence doth plainly declare If then to dispute whether the ancient custome of the vniuersall church may be altered be madnes yea most insolent madnes what degree of phrensie wil fal to your lot that erect desend a particular late growen custome against the plaine precept of God himselfe against the Apostles prescription against the generall ancient vsage of Christs church yea against the nature of man true intent of your own seruice which you would seeme to make most account of Phi. All this is vntrue Theo. Bethinke your selfe better and you shall finde it truer than you would wish Phi. Had euer any Nation their church-seruice in a barbarous tongue before our time Theo. Make you that such a wonder which your own friends confesse was so common in the primatiue church Lyra saith In primatiua ecclesia benedictiones caetera coīa or else leauing out the c which seemeth to be added by the negligence of the Printer oīa siebant in vulgari In the primatiue church blessings and al other or other common praiers were made in the vulgar toung which the people vnderstood Eckius saith Non negamus tamen Indis Australibus permissum vt in lingua sua rem diuinam facerent quod clerus eorum hodie obseruat We deny not but the south Indians were suffered in the primatiue church to haue their diuine seruice in their mother toung which is neither Greeke Hebrew nor Latine which also their clergy at this day obserueth An other of your friends saith of the Moscouits Totū sacrū seu Missa Gētili ac vernacula lingua apudillos peragi solet The whole seruice or masse is said with thē in their natiue mother toūg The epi. also the Gospel of the daie are read to the people with a loud voice out of the chācel for their better vnderstāding Pet. Belloni saith As many as are presēt with the priest singing masse Armenia answere him in the Armenian tongue For all that stand by vnderstand the Armenian tongue which the Priest vseth in his seruice Phi. These bee schismaticall and disordered Churches Theo. In deede they know no part of your holy Fathers religion nor dominion Yet are they Christians and neerer the truth by many degrees than the church of Rome It is no schisme to bee free from him to whom they were neuer subiect and some obseruances though they haue which are both superstitious and erronious yet that is no reason to dispraise them in that wherein they followe the example of the true and sincere church of Christ and retaine that custome which they receiued from the beginning Phi. Wee may dislike them for this aswell as you may for other thinges Theo. Whether you like them or no so they doe and so haue they doone euer since they were planted in Christ euen to this our age And this their constancie you can not dislike but you must also dislike the Apostle that first taught it the primatiue church that continued it and adiudged it to bee necessary yea your holy Father himselfe that not onely would permit it when he was requested but strictly commaunde it when it was not asked Cyrillus that conuerted the people of Russia and Morauia made request to the Bishop of Rome as Pope Pius the second reporteth that hee might vse the Sclauon tongue in saying diuine Seruice to them whom hee had baptized And when the matter came to bee handled in the sacred Senate or councell chamber a number contradicting it he saith there was heard a voice as it were from heauen speaking these wordes Let euerie spirite praise the Lord and euerie tongue confesse him and that vpon the hearing thereof Cyrillus had his petition The blindnes of your holy father and his Cardinals was reproued by a voice from heauen for hauing their Seruice in an vnknowen tongue and yet you beare men in hand to dislike the late custome of your Romish Synagogue or so much as to dispute thereof as if it were not to be done is insolent madnesse Innocentius though hee were the first that brought Transubstantiation Auricular confession and deposition of Princes to bee confirmed in open councell 1215. yeares after Christ yet durst he not binde the West church to the Latine seruice throughout as you doe but gaue streit charge rather to the contrary that such as were of diuerse languages shoulde haue the praiers and sacramentes of the church in their seuerall and sundry rites and tongues as appeareth in the councell of Lateran assembled vnder Innocentius the thirde of that name Because in many places within the same citie Diocese there be mingled people of diuerse toungs hauing vnder one faith sundry rites customes we straitly commaund that the Bishops of such cities Dioceses prouide fit men which may celebrate diuine seruice and minister the church Sacramēts vnto them according to the diuersities of their rites lāguages Phi. In diuerse toūgs he saith they shal haue their seruice but not in any barbarous tongue Theo. And he that saith they shal haue their seruice in diuerse tongues confesseth there were more tongues vsed in the West church than one and taking order that seruice should be said vnto them according to the diuersities of their tongues he saw some cause why the people should vnderstand what was said in the church and if that be needfull or expedient for one nation why not for other in like manner And yet I see no restraint in the wordes but that the Moscouites Morauians others were prouided for by this Canon to haue the church seruice in their proper and natiue tongue as well as the Grecians Phi. If it were so we account it lawful for that the church of Rome did permit it Theo. Then do we account our seruice in the English tongue much more lawful chiefly for that it is warrāted by the word of God as I haue shewed and secondly for that it wanteth not the generall vse and order of Christes church in her sincerest and purest state to confirme the same Phi. Haue you the generall and ancient custom of Christes church to insure your seruice in the english tongue Theo. Wee haue for that tongue which the people vnderstand be it English Scottish or what other speech you will Phi. That any Nation praied in a barbarous tongue you haue no president in the Primatiue church Theo. This is not the first time that your teeth could not rule your tongue The
magis apposita The former diriuation of the word Mâ—ssa pleaseth me better as the likelier and not that it should signifie a sacrifice and be deriued from the Hebrew word Missà as Reuchline woulde deduce it And therefore he sayth Idem igitur mos a nostris etiam seruatur vt peractis sacris per Diaconum pronuncietur Ite missa est quod idem est ac ilicet id est ire licet The same maner is obserued of our men that at the ende of diuine seruice the Deacon should say ITE MISSA EST which is as if he sayd YOV MAY DEPART And that missa was vsual for missio he sheweth out of Cyprians epistles where he sayth remissa for remissio Rhenanus another of your friends giueth the like obseruation in his notes vppon the 4. booke of Tertullian against Marcion Hodie in fine Sacri Leuita pronunciat Ite missa est id est missio est quod olim in initio dicebatur antequam inciperentur videlicet ipsa mysteria Hinc iuxta vulgi consuetudinem Ambrosius missas facere dixit Propriè missa erat tempore Sacrificij quando Cathecumeni foras mittebantur At this day the Priest pronounceth at the end of his seruice Ite missa est that is go you haue leaue to depart which in the primatiue church was sayd in the beginning before they came to the celebration of the Sacraments Thence Ambrose vsed the word missam facere according to the vulgar custome of those tymes For properly missa was when the conuerts not yet baptized were sent away in the time of the sacrifice that is at what time the rest addressed themselues to be partakers of the Lords table And that missa was common for missio hee proueth by Tertullian and Cyprian in his booke de bono patientiae and epist. 14. And lest you shoulde thinke this to bee a phantasticall assertion of his without all ground or authoritie such as the most of your obseruations are hee telleth you that this mysterie of antiquitie is related in Isidores Lexicon And in deede so it is For Isidore sayth Missa tempore Sacrificij est quando Cathecumeni foras mittuntur clamaÌ„te Leuita si quis cathecumenus remansit exeat foras inde missa quia sacrameÌ„tis altaris interesse non possunt qui nonduÌ„ regenerati nascuntur Missa was about the tyme of the sacrifice when the learners and such as were not yet baptized were sent out of the Church the Leuite crying if any Cathecumene bee heere let him depart and thence is the word missa because they can not be present at the Sacrament of the Altar which are not yet regenerate And I thinke for very shame you would not séeme to be so foolish as to take missam Cathecumenorum which the fourth councell of Carthage doth mention in the place alleaged by your selues and likewise S. Austen in those very sermons which you cite as his for your Masse or Sacrifice For how can fit missa Cathecumenis stand either for the sacrament or sacrifice since the persons named were not baptized and consequently not to be admitted to any of the Church mysteries So that graunt the word missa were found oftner in the Fathers than it is you can thence conclude nothing for your Masse which you rudely and vnaduisedly thinke to be all one with their missa or missarum solemnia where in déede it is as contrarie to that which they spake of as poyson to an wholesome potion For missa with them did signifie the sending away of such as might not communicate with the rest at the Lords table the masse with you is the reall and actuall sacrificing of the sonne of God to his father and the setting of the people to gaze on the Priest whiles he alone deuoureth all and falsifieth the very words and actions of Christes institution Phil. Nay you falsifie both the words and déedes of Christes institution and though you gather out of Isidore and others that Missa in the ancient Fathers was the demising of such as might not be present at the Sacrifice and missa Cathecumenorum by no meanes can be our Masse yet touching our Sauiours institution of the blessed Sacrament we come néerer to this example than you do you missing it in most points that be essentiall and we following all his actions that are imitable Theop. What essentiall points do we misse Phil. Almost all Theop. Reason you named some Phil. You do not imitate Christ in blessing the bread and wyne nor in vnleauened bread and mingling water with wine nor in saying the words of consecration ouer the bread and wine you vse no confession before nor adoration of the blessed Sacrament at the receiuing of it A number of like defects there are in your communion which cause it to be no sacrament but common bread and wine Therfore imperet vobis Deus and confound you for not discerning his holy body and for conculcating the blood of the new Testament Theop. Kéepe your burning and cursing deuotion for your selues your manquelling and masse-mongring rage hath as much affinitie with Michaels praier beséeching God the diuell might be restrained as fiercenes and furie hath to patience and pietie If we haue altered any part of Christes institution curse on in Gods name and let your curses take effect But if the celebration of our mysteries be answerable to his will and word that first ordained them you curse not vs whome you would hurt but him that your cursed toongs can not hurt which is God to be blessed for euer and whose euerlasting curse will take hold of you if you relent not the sooner for your proude defiance and stately contempt of his truth in respect of your massing reuels and mummeries Philand Nay you are contemners of his true body and blood in this reuerent blessed and holy sacrament and breakers of his institution and therefore his curse will light on you Theop. Uaine spéech doth but spend time shew first wherein we breake Christes institution and for the truth of his presence in this Sacrament if we teach otherwise than the Scriptures and Fathers do warrant vs we are content to heare and beare the curse which blind zeale hath wrested from you Philand We shewed you euen now what things they were wherein you swarued from Christes institution Theoph. You must both repeate them and diuide them that we may the better discusse them Phil. I will Christ tooke bread into his hands applying this ceremonie action and benediction to it and did blesse the very element vsed power and actiue words vpon it as he did ouer the bread and fishes which he multiplied and so doeth the Church of God and so do not you if you followe your owne booke and Doctrine but you let the bread and cup stand aloofe and occupie Christes words by way of report and narration applying them not at all to the matter proposed to
Ea demum est miserabilis animae seruitus signa pro rebus accipere nec supra creaturam corpoream oculum mentis ad â—auriendum aeternum lumen leuare non posse That is a miserable bondage of the soule to take the signes or Sacramentes as you doe for the thinges themselues and not to be able to lift vp the eye of the mind aboue the corporal creature to perceiue the eternall brightnesse Of adoration he saith Rectè scribitur hominem ab angelo prohibitum ne se aedoraret sed vnum Deum sub quo esset ei ille conseruus It is very wel recorded in the Scriptures that a man was prohibited by an angel to adore him but only God vnder whom he himself was a fellow seruant vnto God And therefore he saith Ecce vnum Deum colo Behold I worship adore none but God and thence he deriueth the name of religion Quod ei vni religet animas nostras Because it relieth our soules on him alone So that veneration you may giue to sacramentes adoration you may not and yet you finely conuey the one into S. Augustines text iointly with the other as if they were both fouÌ„d in his words which they are not Phi. He saith singular veneration Theo. You say so but he sayeth not so His words are Veneratione singulariter debita with that veneration which is due onely or singularly to this Sacrament Phi. And what is that but adoration Theo. If you might be iudges it should be nothing else but S. Augustine sayth Not to be contemned is the veneration due vnto it Contemptum solum non vult cibus ille that meate misliketh onele contempt that is either to bee dayly receiued without regard or to be still refused vpon pretence of vnworthynesse And that being the case of which S. Augustine disputeth your cunning serueth you in steede of examining theÌ„selues before they receiue it which S. Augustine meaneth to set the people not at all to receiue it but to fall downe and adore it with diuine honour in Christes place which is as wilfull a contempt of his ordinaunce and as shamefull an abuse of his sacramentes as can be committed Phi. The same father in an other place saieth of the Sacrament No man eateth it before he adore it Theo. Are you not desperatly set thâ—t to defile your selues with open idolatrie will force the Fathers to fit your â—umours against their owne speeches S. Augustine saith of Christes fleshe which hee tooke of the virgine Marie Nemo illam carnem manducat nisi prius adorauerit No man eateth that fleshe of Christ vnlesse hee first adore it you make no more bones at the matter but strike THE FLESH of Christ out of Sainct Augustines wordes and referre adoration to the corporall creature which the Priest holdeth in his fingers Is not this trowe you sounde dealing in the greatest mysteries of our saluation and imminent peril of your damnation purposely to shut your eyes least you shoulde see the truth or agnise the rashnesse of your newe founde adoration What haue Sainct Augustines wordes to doe with your adoring the mysticall signes when hee directly nameth the flesh of Christ which is both eaten with the spirite and adored in the spirite yea the very eating of it is the adoring of it since it is not eaten but by beleeuing hoping and reioycing in it which are the chiefe branches of Gods diuine honor Phi. As though the fleshe of Christ were not really closed in the forme of bread and corporally eaten with the mouth of man Theo. One errour must needes drawe on an other or rather your reall and carnall presence is the groundworke of all your errors and abuses in the Masse Phi. The deniall of it is the high way to all your heresies and blasphemies against the doctrine of the church and for our partes till you leaue that wee looke for no better at your hands Theo. Looke to your own feete least whiles you watch our hands your legges slip into the pit of destruction Phi. Wee bee past all feare of that Theo. And so be those that are past all recouery but yet for the sauing of other mens soules if not of yours we will first weigh the proofes of your adoration after not sticke to suruay the partes of your Transubstantiation Go on therefore with your former authorities Phi. S. Ambrose saieth We adore the flesh of Christ in the mysteries Theo. Uerily and so doe wee but the mysteries and sacramentes themselues wee doe not adore neither did Sainct Ambrose euer teach any man to adore them Phi. I see you mistake vs. You thinke we adore the formes of bread and wine where in deede we doe not but rather we adore Christ the sonne of the lyuing God and second person in Trinitie in those mysteries as Saint Ambrose sayeth or as wee speake more vsually vnder those formes of breade and wine Theo. I mistake you not I knowe you adore that which is locally and really inclosed within the compasse of your host and chalice supposing it in matter and substance to bee the glorious body of Christ apparelled with accidents of bread and wine as whitenesse roundnesse sweetenesse moystnesse and such like proprieties of bread and wine but your foundation wee say is false and therefore your building must needes bee ruinous Christ is present in the mysteries not by the materiall substaunce of his body closed within the formes of bread and wine but by a diuine and spirituall vertue and efficience not mixing 〈…〉 but entering the hâ—rtâ— of the faithâ—ull and nourishing them with his spirit and grace to eternall life the elementes abiding in their proper and former essence and substance And therefore when you adore them as if they were Christ in nature and substaunce which in trueth they are not you worship not Christ but giue his honour to creatures and in steede of washing your sins away by the death and blood of Christ you kindle the wrath of God against you by mystaking his sonne and adoring the elementes with diuine honor in lue of Christ. Phi. Tush we regard not these wordes of yours we haue assurance from Christ himselfe that it is his body and so long wee passe not for any thing that you can alleadge or obiect against vs. Theophil But if you misconster his wordes to make a deade and corruptible creature to bee the seconde person in Trinitie and giue it that honour which is due to the glorious and immortall God what assuraunce can you haue that Christ Iesus will put vp this reproach at your handes and not auenge himselfe on you as on proud idolateâ—s Phi. Are you well in your wits to vrge vs so often with open Idolatrie where as wee shewe you so plaine proofes of our defence Theo. Plaine quoth you In good faith they bee such as no meane Scholer woulde stumble at Christ you proue
my way Phi. Al these fathers affirme the bread to be a signe figure of Christs body This we grant and thereto adde that it is both a figure and the trueth it selfe You may be gone you haue your errand Did I not tell you I would soone dispatch you Theo. You be very pleasureable whatsoeuer the matter be but had you no better skill to dispatch men of their liues than you haue to defeate vs of ouâ— authorities many a thowsand should now liue that you haue slaine Philan. You would runne to by-quarrels but I must hold you to the stake Theo. In deede that was alwayes the surest answere that you gaue vs. The rest was nothing no more is this For first it is apparently false that in Sacraments the signe the truth may be all one thing Next if that might be yet doth it not disappoint any one of these testimonies For they do not only witnes that the bread is a sign of christs bodie but also that christes wordes were figuratiue and that in deliuering the mysteries he called the bread his body by way of signification similitude representation after the maner of Sacramentes in a signe not according to the letter but in a spirituall and mysticall vnderstanding and if you respect the precise speech improperly and figuratiuely And though the signe might happily be one thing with the truth it self as you affirm wtout al truth yet may not a figuratiue speech be properly takeÌ„ nor the letter vrged against the spirituall meaning least that which was spoken to quicken the inward man subuert the faith and indanger the soul which in mistaking a figure of speech must needs insue as S. Augustine sheweth In principio cauendum est ne siguratam locutionem ad literam accipias Ad hoc enim pertinet quod ait Apostolus litera occidit spiritus autem viuificat Cum enim figurate dictum sic accipitur tanquam proprie dictum sit carnaliter sapitur Neque vllamors animae congruentius appellatur The first thing that you must beware is this that you take not a figuratiue speech according to the letter To that belongeth the Apostles admonition the letter killeth the spirite quickneth For when wee take that which is figuratiuely spoken as if it were properly spoken it is a carnall sense Neither is there any thing more rightly called the death of the soule In vaine then doe you thinke to shift off the matter with this foolish conceite that one and the same thing may be both a trueth and a figure For were that so yet can not a figuratiue speech bee literally taken without killing the soule and the Fathers which I produced affirme the minde and speech of our Sauiour in calling the bread his body was spirituall figuratiue and mysticall by way of signification such as is vsed in Sacramentes not literall nor carnall according to the strict sâ—und and order of the wordes Marie now your answere besides that it is altogether idle is vtterly false For in this sacrament as in al others there is great difference betwixt the signes and the things theÌ„selues and the distinct properties of ech are so sensible that if your wits be not laid vp for holy daies you can not but perceiue theÌ„ The signes are visible the things inuisible the signes are earthly the things heaueÌ„ly the signes corruptible the thinges immortall the signes corporall the thinges spirituall The signes are one thing the trueth is not the same but an other thing and euen by plaine Arythmetike they be two things and not one The Eucharist as Ireneus teacheth Consisteth of two things an earthly an heauenly This is it that wee say this is it that we seeke by all meanes saith Austen to approue to wit that the sacrifice of the church is made of two and consisteth of two thinges sacramento re sacramenti of the sacred signe and the thing it selfe For sacramentes are signa rerum aliud existentia aliud significantia signes of truthes being one thing in themselues and signifieng an other It were no figure saith Chrysostome if all thinges incident to the truth were to be found in it much lesse if it were the truth it selfe Sacraments haue a certaine similitude but no identitie with the thinges whose signes they be If therefore To take the signes for the thinges bee a miserable seruitude of the soule as Austen noteth what is it to affirme the signes to be the things themselues but a wilfull blindnesse of heart choosing rather to rush into any brake with daunger both of credit and conscience than to acknowledge the truth once disdayned and refused Phi. I haue yet an other answere in stoare Theo. If that be no better than this your stoare is little worth Phi. The most part of the Fathers which you bring speake not of Christes wordes when hee did institute the Sacrament but declare his meaning in the sixth of Sainct Iohns Gospell when the Capernites stumbled at his doctrine Theo. You may keepe this still in stoare for the goodnes of it Tertullian Austen Cyprian Ambrose Hierom Chrysostom Theodorete Prosper Bede Bertram Druthmarus and your own law speake directly of the sacrament and so doth Origen when he calleth the bread on the Lords table the typicall and figuratiue body onely that place of his mentioneth the sixt of Iohn where he saith If you take this saying according to the letter this letter killeth Phi. Mary Sir that place is the chiefest how closely you could conuey it in amongest the rest to make men beleeue he spake that of the sacrament which is nothing so Theo. Why doth not the 6. of S. Iohn foretel and declare the same kinde of eating Christs flesh and drinking his bloode which was after perfourmed by Christ at his last supper wheÌ„ he said This is my body this is my blood Phi. Doth it say you Theo. I do not say Christ speaketh in the sixth of Iohn of the materiall elementes of bread and wine which were then first ordained to bee pledges of his inuisible graces when the Supper was first instituted and therefore not spoken of before that time but this is it which I affirme and in this the learned and auncient Fathers agree with mee that where this mystery consisteth of two partes an earthlie matter and an heauenly vertue the sixth of Sainct Iohn treateth not of the signes but of the thinges them-selues not of the figures representing but of the trueth represented not of that which is corporally proposed but of that which is Ghostly receiued in the Lordes supper which is the better and diuiner part of this Sacrament and that the Disciples there learned in what sort themselues and all the faithfull after them should eate the Lords flesh and drinke the Lords blood at his table to be thereby quickned norished and incorporated with him as members of his mysticall body So that if any
peruert the meaning of Leo and if you did but vnderstand the right course of his reason you would suppresse both his voice and your vaunt for verie shame Phi. He that will trust your sayings shall haue manie false fiers when he should not Theo. And he that will credit your doings shall feele manie quick flames when he would not Phi. You be better at quipping than at answering Theo. You are lothe we should encroch on your common But returne to Leo. Can you tell against whome he wrote Phi. Against such as you are that denied the trueth of Christes bodie and blood in the Sacrament Theo. Were they men without names or names without men Phi. Mock not they were your auncetours Theo. They say it is a wise childe that knoweth his owne father Doe you But in sadnes whome did Leo traduce in that sermon Phil. Mary Eutiches and such like heretikes Theoph. You saie well for Leo nameth him but a litle before in that sermon and against his opinion he reasoneth Philand I am content with that Theoph. What was his error Phi. He denied the trueth of Christes bodie and blood in the Sacrament Theo. Who told you so Phi. I gather it by those that refute him Theo. By them you shall learne his error but this it was not Philan. What was it say you Theo. Eutiches affirmed that Christes humane nature and substance was not onely glorified by his ascension but consumed and turned into the nature immensitie of his Godhead Against him wrate Theodorete Gelasius and others and one of the cheefest argumentes which they bring against him is that which Leo here toucheth in a woorde or two Phi. That argument cleane confoundeth your sacramentarie Sect. Theo. Yours or ours it must needes confound for this it is As the bread and wine after consecration are changed and altered into the bodie and bloud of Christ so is the humane nature of Christ conuerted into his diuine after his resurrection ascension but the bread and wine are not changed neither in substance nor forme nor figure nor naturall proprieties but only in grace and working ergo Christs humane nature is not changed into his diuine EITHER IN SVBSTANCE circumscription or forme but only endewed with glory and immortalitie Phi. This is no Catholike reason but sauoreth altogether of your hereticall poison Theo. They which first framed and vrged this reason against Eutiches in your opinion were they heretikes Phi. No father euer vsed it Theo. If they did must not they be doubbed for heretikes as the first proposers of that reason or at least you for affirming now the quite contrarie For you reiect both their assumption conclusion against Eutiches as starke false and whose ancetour then is Eutiches but yours Phi. They do not vse it as you report it Theo. Looke you offspring of Eutiches whether Gelasius Theodoret and Augustine do not vrge it in those verie pointes and wordes which I repeate Thus Gelasius framed his reason against Eutiches An image or similitude of the bodie and bloud of Christ is celebrated in the action of the mysteries It is therefore apparant and euident enough that we must holde the same opinion of Christ the Lord which we professe celebrate and receiue in his image That as those signes by the working of the holy Ghost passe into the diuine substance and yet remaine in the proprietie of their owne nature Euen so that verie principall mysterie it selfe whose force truth that Image assuredly representeth doth demonstrate one whole and true Christ to continue the two natures of which he consisteth properlie remaining And lest you should not vnderstand what he ment by this The signes still abide in the proprietie of their owne nature he expoundeth himselfe an saith Non desinit esse substantia vel natura panis vini The substance or nature of bread and wine ceaseth not or perisheth not When Theodoret had made an entrance to the very same reason by laying this foundation Oportet archetypum Imaginis esse exemplar the Originall must be answerable to the Image the heretike caught the words out of his mouth and said It hapned in good time that you did mention the diuine mysteries for euen thereby will I prooue the Lordes bodie to be chaunged into an other nature As then the signes of the Lordes bodie and blood are other thinges before the inuocation of the Priest but after they are chaunged and become other than that they were so the Lords bodie after his assumption is chaunged into his diuine substance The maior being good such as Gelasius and Theoderet did both auouch that as the signes were changed after consecration so was Christes humanitie after his assumption if your opinion had then beene taught in the church that the substance of bread and wine were changed by consecration the conclusion had beene infallible for Eutiches error that the substance of Christes humanitie had beene changed by his ascention into his diuinitie and not only both these Fathers had had their mouthes stopped but Eutiches error had beene inâ—olâ—ble as beeing grounded on a Maior that was a confessed and famous trueth and on a Minor that was as you thinke the vndoubted saith of the Church Mary the Minor in deed was apparantly false though you now defend it for Catholike Doctrine and with the plaine deniall of that as a manifest vntrueth Theodoret inferreth the contrarye that because neither the Substance nor naturall proprieties of the bread and wine are chaunged by consecration as the whole Church then beleeued and confessed therefore neither the substance nor shape nor circumscription of Chrisâ—es humane nature were changed by his ascention but his body remaineth in the â—ame substance quantitie and forme that he rose from death and ascended vp withall and with the very same forme and substance of flesh shall come to iudge the worlde These are his wordes Thou art caught saith Theodoret to the heretike with the same nets that thou laiedst for others The mysticall signes after sanctification doe not depart from their own nature For they remanie in their former substance and figure and forme c. Conferre then the Image with the originall and thou shalt see the likenes betweene them For the figure must be like to the trueth That body therefore of christ in heauen hath his former shape and figure circumscription to speake al at once his former substance Lay all your heades together aâ—d graunting the Maior which the whole Church held auoide the conclusion of Eutiches withâ—ut the denying the Minor as Theodoret did which yet is your faith and beleefe at this day and we wil grant you to be Catholiks and our selues heretikes If you cannot see how far you be falleÌ„ from the doctrine of Christs church and that in no lesse point than the greatest and chieâ—esâ— Sacrament on which you haue wickedly founded your adoration oblation halfe communion priuate masse and barbarous prayers without
to say is hereticall And therefore they ioyne both in this that the bodie of Christ may not only be eaten of a Mouse but also it may be vomited vppe by the mouth and purged downe by the draught say Bonauenture what he will or can in detestation of their folke These be their words Igitur corpus Christi sanguis tam diu manet in ventre stomacho vel vomitu quocunque alibi quamdiu species manet Et si specieâ— incorruptae euomuâ—tur illa autem qâ—andoque non corrùpta emâ—ttuâ—tur vt in habentibus fluxum ibi est vere corpus Christi Therefore the bodie and bloud of Christ remaine in the bellie anâ— stomacke or in vomite and in whatsoeuer course of nature so long as the shewes of bread and wine remaine And if they be vomited or purged before they be altered as sometimes in those that are troubled with the fluxe euen there is the true bodie of Christ. O filthie mouthes and vncleane spirites What Capernite what heretike what Infidel was euer I say not so carnall and grosse but so barbarous and brutish Is this the reuerence you giue to the sacred and glorious flesh of Christ Is this the corporal presence that you striue for Shal Mice Dogges and Swine haue eternall life that you bring them to eate the fleshe and drinke the bloud of our Sauiour The rest of your sluttish diuinitie no religious hart can repeate no Christian eares can abide let your neerest frindes be iudges whether this kinde of eating doe not match not only the Capernites but also the Canibals This vile and wicked assertion you will beare men in hand you did euer detest and so think to discharge your selues but you cannot scape so The church of Rome whose factours and attournies you be must answere to God and the worlde for suffering admitting and strengthning this sacrilegious blasphemie For when these things were first broched what did she Did she controle the doers and condemne the filthines of their error Did she so much as note the men or mislike the matter No Philander she proposed the question in her sentences Quid igitur sumit mus vel quid manducat What then doth the mouse take or what doth he eate And with her colde and indifferent answer Deus nouit God knoweth she set the schoole men on work she laid vp the ashes of those mice next her altars for reliques she fauored aduanced and canonized the spredders of it Thomas of Aquin was her only Paramour Hugh of Cluince who commended a Priest for eating the sacrament which a leaper had cast vp Cum vilissimo sputo was Saincted of her she made Antonius no worse man than an Archbishoppe What Call you this the quenching or kindling the suppressing or increasing of heresies No maruaile if you recken Rebels for Martyrs your holy mother the Church of Rome hath the cunning to make saints of blasphemers Returne returne for shame to grauitie trueth and antiquitie Learne to distinguishe that which is seene in this Sacrament from that which is beleeued I meane the visible creature from the grace which is not visible HADST THOV BEENE saith Chrysostome WITHOVT A BODIE Christ WOVLD HAVE GEEVEN THEE HIS INCORPORALL GVIFTS NAKEDLY that is without any coniunction of corporall creatures BVT NOW BECAVSE THY SOVL IS COVPLED WITH A BODIE THEREFORE IN THINGS THAT BE SENSIBLE THINGS INTELLIGIBLE ARE DELIVERED THEE AS BREAD saith Cyril of this sacrament SERVETH FOR THE BODIE SO THE WORD SERVETH FOR THE SOVL. It is neither nouâ—ltie nor absurditie to say that the bread of the Lorde as touching the material substance may bee deuoured of beasts digested of men and will of it selfe in continuance mould and putrifie Such is the condition of all creatures that serue to nourish our bodies and this is a creature well knowen and familiar to our senses But the word of God which is added to the corporall elements the grace which is annexed to the visible signes and the flesh of Christ which quickneth the soul of man by faith these thinges I say be free from all violent and vndecenâ— abuses and iniuries For they be no corporall mortall nor earthlie creatures but spirituall eternall and heauenly blessings and therefore in no case subiect to the greedines of beasts vncleanes of men or weaknes of nature The element is one thing saith Ambrose the operation is an other thing That which is seene in all Sacraments is temporall that which is not seene is eternall If wee looke to the very visible thinges wherein Sacraments are ministred who is ignorant saith Austen that they be corruptible But if wee consider that which is wrought by them who doth not see that that cannot suffer any corruption Of the Lordes Supper Origen affirmeth that the bread as touching the matter or materiall partes thereof goeth into the bellie and forth by the draught but the praier and blessing which is added doeth lighten the soule according to the portion of faith The sacrament that is the sacred element is one thing saieth Rabanusâ— the power of the Sacrament is an other thing The Sacrament is receiued in at the mouth with the vertue of the Sacrament the inwarde man is filled the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of the bodie by the vertue of the Sacrament wee attaine eternall life This doâ—trine your schoolemen either wilfullie reiected or foolishly peruerted to make Christ substantiallie present in your Masses and for that onely cause felâ— thâ—y to the locall shutting of him within the formes of bread and the corporall eating his flesh with their teeth Which grossenes once preuailing in your Church of Rome Thomas Alexander Antonius and the greatest Clarkes of your side were by the consequent of your reall presence forced to conâ—â—sse that the flâ—sh of Christ might be subiect to the teeth and iawes as well of beastes as of vnbeleeuers For wickednes is worse than sluttishnes and the bodies of sinnefull men God more detesteth than he doth the bowels of vnreasonable creatures Since then by the generall consent of your Church Christ doeth not refuse the bellies and intralles of faithlesse persons why say they should he not be verily contained in the capacities and inwardes of brute beastes if by mischaunce they deuoure the Sacrament This hold fast your gloze layeth hands on Si dicatur quodmus sumat corpus Christi non est magnum inconueniâ—ns cum homines sceleratissimi illud sumant If it be said that a mouse taketh the bodie of Christ it is no great inconuenience seeing most wicked men doe receiue the same and this Bonauenture setteth downe for the chiefest motiue to that vile assertion Phi. To tel you truth I like not that position Theo. So long as you defend Christs humane substance to be locally present in your host you cannot for your hart auoide it but either by mocking your sâ—lues and deluding your senses or
say but what ancient Father euer said so before you yea rather why forget you that this is often refuted by them as a leude and hereticall fansie Doeth not Sainct Augustine of purpose debate the matter and in euident termes giue this flat resolution against you Doubt not saieth hee the man Christ Iesus to bee nowe there whence he shall come to iudgement but keepe in minde and holde assured the christian confession that he rose from the dead ascended into heauen sitteth now at the right hand of his Father and from thence from no place else shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead And so shall he come by the very witnesse of Angels as he was seene to goe into heauen that is in the verie same forme substance of his fleshe the whâ—ch hee hath endued with immortalitie not bereaued of the former nature According to this forme of his manhood wee must not thinke him to bee diffunded in euerie place For we must beware that wee doe not so defende the God-head of a man that wee take from him the trueth of his body It is no good consequent that which is in God should bee euerie where as God himselfe is One person is both God and man and one Christ Iesus is both these euerie where as he is God in heauen as he is man Dout not I say that Christ our Lord is euerie where present as God but in some one place of heauen by the meanes of his true bodie And againe Let vs giue the same eare to the holy Gospell that we would to the Lord himselfe if he were present The Lord is aboue in heauen but the trueth is here which also the Lord is The body in which hee rose β can be but in one place â— his trueth is euery where dispersed Doeth not Vigilius a blessed Martyr and Bishoppe of Trident vpholde the verie same point against Eutyches and his accursed companions The fleshe of Christ sayeth hee WHEN IT WAS IN EARTH SVRELY WAS NOT IN HEAVEN AND NOWE BECAVSE IT IS IN HEAVEN CERTAINLIE IT IS NOT IN EARTH yea so farre it is from being in earth that wee looke for Christ after the flesh to come from heauen whom as hee is God the word we beleeue to be with vs in earth Then by your opinion either the worde is comprised in a place as well as the flesh of Christ or the flesh of Christ is euery where togither with the worde seeing one nature doeth not receiue in it selfe any different and contrary state Now to be contained in a place and to be present in euerie place be thinges diuerse and verie dislike and for so much as the word is euery where and the fleshe of Christ not euery where it is cleare that one and the same Christ is of both natures that is euerie where according to the nature of his diuinitie contained in a place according to the nature of his humanity This is the catholike faith and confession which the Apostles deliuered the Martyrs confirmed and the faithful persist in to this day Doth not Fulgentius handle the same question and precisely trace the steps of Sainct Augustine and Vigilius One and the same sonne of God hauing in him the trueth of the diuine and humane nature lost not the proprieties of the true Godhead and tooke also the proprieties of the true manhead one and the selfesame locall by that he tooke of man and infinite by that he had of his Father one and the verie same according to his humane substaunce absent from heauen when hee was in earth and forsaking the earth when hee ascended to heauen but according to his diuine and infinite substaunce neither leauing heauen when hee came downe from heauen neither departing from earth when hee ascended to heauen The which may bee gathered by the most certaine wordes of the Lord himselfe I ascend to my Father and your Father Howe coulde he ascende but as a locall and true man or howe can hee bee present with the faithfull but as an infinite and true God not as if the humane substance of Christ might bee euery where diffunded but because one and the same Sonne of God albeit according to the trueth of his manhead hee were then locally placed on earth yet according to his Godhead which in no wise is concluded in any place hee filled heauen and earth This true manhead of Christ which is locall as also his true Godhead which is alwayes infinite wee see taught by the Doctrine Apostolicall For that Paul might shewe the bodie of Christ as of verie man to bee contayned in a place he sayeth to the Thessalonians You turned to God from idolles to serue the liuing and true God and to looke for his Sonne from heauen declaring that hee surely shoulde corporally come from heauen whom he knewe to bee corporally raysed from the dead His conclusion is this Whereas then the fleshe of Christ is proued without question to bee contained in a place yet his Godhead is at all times euerie where by the witnesse of Paul c. These bee no wrested or maymed allegations but graue and aduised authorities of learned and auncient Fathers plainely concluding with vs against you that the fleshe of Christ is not absent onely from earth and nowe sitteth aboue at the right hande of GOD but also locally contayned in some one place of heauen by reason of the trueth of his bodie and therefore not dispersed in many places or present in euerie place as you would nowe make the world beleeue it is in your Masses Philand This was spoken of the shape but not of the substance of Christs bodie For Sainct Augustine sayeth Secundum hanc formam non est putandus vbique diffusus according to this externall shape and forme we must not thinke him euerie where diffused and yet the trueth and substaunce of his bodie may bee in many places at one time Theop. You forget that the rest say nature and substaunce as Vigilius Circumscribitur loco per naturam carnis suae Christ is circumscribed with place by the nature of his flesh and Fulgentius Secundum humanam substantiam derelinquens terram cum ascendisset in coelum according to his humane substaunce leauing the earth when hee ascended into heauen and againe Non quia humana Christi substantia fuisset vbique diffusa not as if the humane substaunce of Christ should bee euerie where diffunded By the which it is cleare that neither the forme nor substaunce of Christes bodie can be present in many places at one time And what doeth Sainct Augustine meane by the word forme but the perfection and trueth of mans nature as Ambrose Leo Chrysostome others doe What is sayeth Ambrose in the forme of God in the nature of God I demaund sayeth Leo what is ment by this taking the
specie visibili they dranke one thing we drink an other thing but in visible kinde Ibi Petra Christus nobis Christus quod in altari Dei ponitur Si speciem visibilem intendas aliud est To them the Rock was Christ to vs that is Christ which is set on the altar of God If you looke to the visible kinde it is an other thing than that they dranke In these places you can not interprete species a shewe without substance vnlesse you wil transubstantiate Manna which the children of Israel did eate the rocke which they dranke of the hatchet which Elizeus made swâ—m the bread that is in common vse without before consecration for these things Austen and Ambrose comparing them with this Sacrament do call visibiles species visibles kindes as they do the bread and wine proposed to the faithfull at the Lordes table And were you so peruerse that against the meaning of the Fatherâ— â—nd signification of the word you would needes haue species to bee taken for your miraculous and mysticall accidences I can tell you they are like to shrinke in this change as well as the substaunce For Ambrose saith Sermo Christi mutat species elementorum the word of Christ changeth by your interpretation the shewes of the elementes which is so apparantly false that your selues dare not abide it And therefore species must stand not for the outward formes and shewes but for the thinges themselues As Sainct Augustine speaking of the Sacramentall bread sayth vt sit visibilis species panis multa grana in vnum consperguntur Manie cornes are kneaded togither to make not the shew but the visible kinde or creature of bread By which it is euident that species with auncient writers in their discourses of this Sacrament is not a shewe without a substaunce as you vainly suppose but a kinde or creature which is far from accidentes hanging in the ayre you know not how by miraculous geometrie Philand Wee ground not our selues so much on the bare name of species as on the change of the bread and wine made by vertue of consecration as all the Fathers witnesse Theo. It is a verie simple foundation to builde on a bare word which hath many significations besides that and any signification rather than that which you conceiue and yet that is one of the best foundations you haue for your newe founde shewes without substaunce and as for the chaunge of the sacred elementes made by the wordes of Christ and mentioned in the Fathers if you did not vrge your fansies on their phrases but examine their doctrine you should soone spie your error which nowe you will not you bee so wedded to the preiudice of your owne opinion Phi. Doe not all the Fathers with one voice confesse a change to bee made in the elementes by the words of Consecration Theo. Doe not we acknowledge the same How could vsuall bread taken of the fruites of the earth and seruing only to feede the bodie become a Sacrament instrument of heauenly grace and life to quicken and strengthen the soule of man but by some great and maruelous chaunge Phi. Such as none coulde perfourme but the mighty finger of God himselfe For so S. Ambrose and others to perswade this chaunge haue recourse to Christes eternall power and trueth Theo. Yea verily Phi. That confession is suffâ—cient to confute the doctrine which you defend Theo. I see not how Phi. If the bread were not changed from his former substance it could neither bee miraculous nor neede the omnipotent power of Christ. For figures similitudes men may make but this mutation is wrought by the mightie power of the holy Ghost and the manner is vnsearchable Theo. Greater power truth are required for the finishing of one Sacrament than for the working of many miracles Miracles not only the godly but also the wicked haue diuerse times wrought The Sorcerers of Egypt did some wonders Antichrist hath his miracles and those not a few But Sacramentes no Sainct no not the chosen and elect Angels of heauen can institute For who dare promise who can performe the spirituall and celestiall graces of God to bee annexed to the visible signes but only God How could water regenerate the soule if the worde were not God How could bread and wine norish to life euerlasting vnlesse the same God had likewise spoken the word We must in al sacraments be fully persuaded of Christs infallible truth alsufficient power before we can either beleeue or inioy the promises If his word might lack truth or want power then should our faith vanish these outward elements perish without profiting vs but with him is no changing neither can any thing defeate his wil therefore when wee bee taught to looke not on the weaknes of the creatures which be corruptible but on the perfection of his heauenly word which is puissant predominaÌ„t ouer al things what doth this helpe your real corporal coÌ„uersion of bread into Christ What maketh this for TraÌ„substantiation God is wonderfull in this and all other his sacramentes not by casting away substances and leauing accidences but by working that in our hearts by the mightie power of his spirit aboue nature which the visible signes import to our senses and this is more maruelous in any wise mans eye than your accidentall shewes without a subiect Phi. God is maruelous in all his workes but in this more than in any other because the substance of the bread wine is changed where the qualities are not Theo. That change you dreame of but who auoucheth it besides your selues or what ancient father euer mentioned any such Phi. They all confesse the change which we speake of Theo. You bee so deepe in your empty shewes that wee take your all to bee as much as none Phi. Thinke you as you list wee knowe what wee haue Theo. If your stoare bee so great why make you such curtsie to name vs one Phi. You will quarell with him when I bring him Theo. Your selfe mistrust him before you offer him Phi. I mistrust your carping not his writing Theo. If mine answere bee not sound wherefore serue you but to refute it Phi. Wel then Eusebius Emissenus hath an euident testimony for this matter Recedat omne infidelitatis ambiguum quandoquidem qui author est muneris ipse est etiam testis veritatis Nam inuisibilis sacerdos visibiles creaturas in substantiam corporis sanguinis sui verbo secreta potestate conuertit ita dicens Accipite comedite hoc est corpus meuÌ„ Et sanctificatione repetita accipite bibite ait Hic est sanguis meus Ergo sicut ad nutum praecipientis Domini repente ex nihilo substiterunt excelsa caelorum profunda fluctuum vasta terrarum ita pari potestate in spiritualibus Sacramentis vbi praecipit virtus seruit effectus Let all doubt of infidelitie
himself is neither of a diuine substance only nor of an humane only There is then as wel in the high Priest as in the sacrifice an heauenly substance there is also an earthly substanceâ— The earthly substance in theÌ„ both is that which may corporally locally be seen The heauenly in them both is the inuisile word which in the beginning was God with God The Church of England euen to the conquest held the same Doctrine and taught it to the people of this Land in their publike homilies which are yet to be seene of good record in the Saxon tongue The sermon then read on Easter day throughout their Churches is a manifest declaration of that which I say where amongst others these words are occurrent The holy font water that is called the welspring of life is like in shape to other waters and is subiect to corruption but the holy Ghosts might commeth to the corruptible water through the Priests blessing and it can after wash the bodie and soul from all sinne through Ghostly might Beholde now we see two things in this one creature After true nature that water is corruptible water and after Ghostly mystery hath hallowing might So also if we behold that holie housell after bodily vnderstanding then see we that it is a creature corruptible mutable if we acknowledge therein ghostly might theÌ„ vnderstaÌ„d we that life is therein and that it giueth immortalitie to them that eate it with beliefe Much is betwixt the inuisible might of the holy housel the visible shape of his proper nature It is naturally corruptible bread and corruptible wine and is by might of Gods word truly Christes bodie and his bloud not so notwithstanding bodily but Ghostly Much is betwixt the bodie Christ suffered in and the body that is hallowed to housell The body truely that Christ suffered in was borne of the flesh of Mary with bloud with bone with skinne and with sinewes in humane limmes with a reasonable soul liuing and his Ghostly body which wee call the housell is gathered of many cornes without bloud and bone without limme without soul. And therefore nothing is to be vnderstood therein bodily but al is Ghostly to be vnderstood Phi. What care we for your Saxon recordes Theo. Lesse care we for your Romish Monckish recordes so lately and grossely forged as we haue proued yet this to your inward grief you may now see shal an other day to your vtter confusion feele that your nouelties touching the Sacrament were neuer hard of in the Church of England nor in the Church of Christ til Lancfrancus Anselmus other Italians a thowsand yeres after christ came in with their AntichristiaÌ„ deuises and inuentions expounding Species and forma panis for the qualities accidents of bread without any subiect or substance which once taking place you fel amaine both to sacrilegious sophismes against trueth and rebellious practises against Princes ceased not til you brought them to their hight in your late Laterane Councell vnder Innocentius the third 1215 yeares after Christ. This is your Catholicisme that you so much vaunt of which the Christian world was vtterly ignorant of for almost a thousand yeares and to the which you would now reduce the simple with a shew of holines pretending greate grauitie and admirable antiquitie with bolde faces and eger speaches though you be void of both if you were well examined Phi. Were the doctrine of elder ages in some doubt which we knowe to be fully for vs yet you confesse these last fiue hundreth yeares are cleare on our side Theo. The miter and Scepter were yours the mysterie of iniquiiie working as was foretold and infecting the West Church with hypocrisie and heresie as fast as the Turke oppressed the East with rage tyrannie Yet in euerie of these last most corrupted ages God raised a number of innocent and simple men with the confession of their mouthes and expence of their liues to witnesse his trueth against the pride and fury of their aduersaries whome your holie father hanged burned and otherwise murdered for repining at his proceedings that whome with honour and ease he could not allure at lest he might quaile with terror and torment Phi. Shoulde wee leaue the fellowship of holie Popes famous Prelates mighty Princes learned and Religious Moncks and Friers yea Saints and ioyne our selues to a fewe condemned and infamous heretikes as you doe Theo. That which is pretious and admirable before men may be odious detestable before God The dignities of men cannot deface the truth of Christ the higher their states the greater their falles if they did oppose themselues against the highest Phi. You say they did Theo. I doe not but this I say that if the respect of their externall and temporall glorie be the ground of your conscience you haue a wicked affection as well as Religion To follow men against God is to magnifie them afore God Phi. You condemne them for cast-awaies Theo. I am not their iudge He that made them might be mercifull to them amiddest the defects and dangers of those daies as he hath been to some in all ages and places yet that is no safetie for you to defend their open errors and wilfully to continue their wickednes Phi. Were not our fathers religious and holy men Theo. Iustifie not your fathers against God lest their mouthes condemne you for a pernicious ofsprng God will be glorified when he iudgeth say you and your fattherâ— what you can to the contrary Reprooue not the sharpnes of his iustice which he neuer sheweth but for great and vrgent cause submit your selues rather and acknowledge it is his vndeserued and yet not vnwoonted mercie that you be not consumed as your fathers were before you but haue yet time and warning to repâ—nt Phi. And are you such Saints that you â—eede no repentance Theo. Wee desire to liue no longer than we confâ—sse before heauen and earth that as God hath beene righteous in reuenging the sinnes and iniquities of our fathers by taking his trueth from them and leauing them to the power of darkenes and kingdome of Antichrist so he might most iustly for our vngodlines vnthankfulnes haue wrapped vs in the same confusion and destruction saue that of his infinite and vnspeakeable mercy he woulde haue his Gospell preached afresh for a witnes to all Nations before he come to iudgement to make all men inexcusable that haue either not beleeued or not obeyed the truth And this causeth vs not onely with all that is within vs to giue glorie to his name for so great a blessing but to beseech him that though we be lighted on the ends of the world when charitie waxeth cold and faith is skant found on the face of the earth we may not be caried away with the error of the wicked to perdition especially not to followe the way of Cain that
The faith of our fathers is not alwaies trueth 537 God forbiddeth vs to follow the steppes of our fathers 538 The godly confessed their fathers did erre 539 All humane lawes barres giue place to God 540 The prince might make lawes for trueth maugre the Pope 541 Princes haue setled religion without Councels 542 Christian religion receiued vpon the direction of a lay man 543 Trueth authorised the Apostles against Priests Princes 544 Railing on Princes is a capitall crime 545 The contents of the fourth part No point of Poperie Catholike 546. What is truely CATHOLIKE 547 The worshipping of Images is not Catholike 547 The west Church against the worshipping of Images 548 Corruption to help the credite of the second Nicen councell 549 The worshipping of Images detested in the Church of Christ as Heresie 550 The â—mage of God made with hands may not be worshipped 552 The Iewes Gentiles did erect their Images vnto God 553 The heathen adored their stocks as the Images of God 554 The Image of man set vp vnto God is an Idoll 556 The wodden Image of Christ may not be worshipped 557 The honour done to a wodden Image is not done to Christ. 559 Adoration of Images no Apostolick tradition 562 S. Basill forged to make for adoration of Images 563 The shamefull forgeries and falsities of the second Nicene councell 564 Both Scriptures and fathers wickedly abused by the second Nicene Councâ—l 565 The second Nicene Councel conuincing it selfe of forgerie 566 What an Idole is 567 A wrong seruice of God is Idolatrie 568 The Church of Rome giueth diuine honour vnto Images 569 Christs honour may not be giuen to Images 570 The hauing of Images is not Catholike 572 Athanasius palpablie forged in the second Nicene Councell 574 The Church next to the Apostles reiected Images 574 Images came first from Heathens vnto Christians 575 Images reiected by godly Bishops 576. No corporall submission may be giuen to Images 577 The Nicene Bishops play the sophists in decreeing adoration vnto Images 577 The wodden crosse of Christ may not be adored 578 Not one word in scripture for adoration of Images 580 No point of faith may be built on traditions 581 No point of faith beleeued without Scripture 582 Baptizing of Infants is a consequent of the Scriptures 583 It may be a tradition yet grounded on the Scriptures 584 Baptisme of InfaÌ„ts prooued needfull by the Scriptures 585 Rebaptization repugnant to the Scriptures by S. Augustines iudgement 588 The perpetuall virginitie of Marie the Mother of Christ. 589 The Godhead of the holy ghost expressed in the Scriptures 590 His proceeding from the father and the sonne confirmed by the Scriptures 592 Expresse scripture is the sense and not the syllables 593 Fathers wrested to speake against the scriptures 594 The Popish faith is their owne traditioÌ„ against the scriptures 597 Their adoration of images is a late and wicked inuenâ—ion of their schooles 598 Images adored in the Church of Rome with diuine honour 600 Images reiected by Catholike Bishops 601 S. Austen condemneth Images as vnprofitable signes 602 Custome without trueth is but the antiquitie of error 603 Praier in an vnknowen toung prohibited by Saint Paul in Gods name 604 S. Paul speaketh of vnknoweÌ„ touÌ„gs 606 An vnknowen toung cannot edifie 607 Diuine seruice in a knowen toung cannot choose but edifie 608 S. Paul speaketh of three learned toungs as wel as of others 610 S. Paul speaketh of the Hebrew Greeke and Latine as well as of other tongues 611 S. Pauls wordes comprise both Church seruice sermons 612 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 14. speaketh of Church seruice 613 The Church vnder the Apostles had no set order of diuine seruice 614 The Church vnder the Apostles did sing blesse and pray by the gyft of the spirite 615 The Apostle had no certaine praiers or seruice 616 The Iesuits halting reasons that S. Paul did not speak of the church Seruice 616 S. Paul to the Corinthians speaketh of Church seruice 620 No man may say AMEN to that he vnderstandeth not 624 Necessary to vnderstand our praiers 625 The primatiue Church had neuer her praiers and seruice in an vnknowen tongue 627 The latine seruice was vnderstood in the Countries where it was 629 Alleluia is vsed in all tongues aswell barbarous as others 630 The Britans had no latine seruice 632 Alleluia soung at the plough 632 The Iesuits manner of alleaging impertiment authorities 633 Bede doth not say that the people of this Realme had the latine seruice in his time 634 The prayers of the primatiue Church were common to all the people 636 The Masse book proueth that the people should vnderstand the Priest 639 The Priest needeth no speach in his praiers but to edifie the hearers 640 Praier is as acceptable to God in a barbarous as in a learned touÌ„g 642 Seruice in an vnknowen tongue is no custome of the vniuersall Church 643 The primatiue church had her seruice in such tongues as the people vnderstood 644 The primatiue church allowed praiers in barbarous tounges Whether side commeth nearest to christs institution 650 S. Paul by the Lords supper meaneth the sacrament 651 The name Masse whence it first came 655 We doe not swarue from christes institution 657 Christ did blesse with the mouth and not with the finger 658 Blessing in the scriptures applied to diuerse and sundrie thinges 659 To doe any thing vpon or ouer the bread is not needefull 660 The rehearsall of christs wordes maketh a sacrament 661 We shew our purpose at the Lords table by our words and deedes 662 The worde beleeued maketh the Sacrament 664 Vnlâ—uened bread is not of the substance of the Sacrament 664 Water is no part of Christs institution 663. 670 Water is not necessarie in the Lordes cup euen by the confession of their own schooles 668 No water mingled whiles the Apostles liued 672 The Masse an open profanation of Christs institution 673 Priuate Masse euerieth all that christ did or said at his last Supper 674 Christ did not sacrifice himselfe at his last supper 676 The Primatiue church had no priuate Masse 678 The Lords supper ought to be coÌ„mon 679 The Lords cup was deliuered to the people as well as the bread 679 Christs precept for the cup extendeth as well to the people as to the Priest 680 In the primatiue church the lords cup was common to all 682 The causes for which the church of Rome changed christs institution 683 The auncient church of Rome very vehement against half communions 684 Forbearing the Lords cuppe condemned in laymen as sacrilege 685 Sacrilege in the Priest can be no religion in the people 686 The Iesuits proofes for their sacrifice 687 How the fathers call the Lordes supper a sacrifice 688 Their own Masse booke contradicteth their sacrifice 690 The Lords death is the sacrfice of the Lords supper 691 A memoriall of christs passion is our daily sacrifice 692 The elder sort of Schoolemen knew not their