and writing Further it is false that a priuate spirit agreeing with the Catholicke Church in doctrine can be in that point of agreement the rule of faith For although the doctrine he teacheth be true yet is it not the rule of faith much lesse is he himselfe because of his authoritie but either as you say by reason of the authoritie of the Church or indeed as we truly affirme for that it is agreeable to the word of God in the Scripture called canonical because it is the rule of faith and manners Now for answer to your Syllogisme I say your Assumption is not simply true but onely so farre forth as the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church I speake as you do agreeth with the truth in the Scripture reuealed Neither doth Saint Paul speake of whatsoeuer doctrine receiued by your imagined Catholicke Church of Rome but of that which he himselfe or some other of the Apostles had taught the Galatians to whom he writeth that Epistle This it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore in your crastie discretion for bare to translate the Apostles words which for the most part you set downe alwayes as well in English as in Latine The reason lieth thus He that teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued of the Apostles is to be accursed for his preaching so But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued by the Apostles Therefore a priuate spirit teaching contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church is to be accursed for his preaching so Who seeth not that the truth of this Assumption dependeth vpon this point that the Catholicke Church hath receiued no other doctrine then that which the Apostles taught the Galatians But this hath as much need of sound proofe as that for the proofe whereof it is brought and therefore to dispute thus against any man that would hold a priuate spirit to be the rule of faith were to giue him occasion to laugh at you for begging the question in stead of prouing it But to make all men see how small force there is in this your reason for the keeping of a priuate spirit from being the rule of faith I will frame two other syllogismes against a publick spirit or Councel and against the Pope 1. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholick Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith 2. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith Haue you not spun a faire threed thinke you to choake the Popes and the Councels authoritie withall Call your wits about you and deuise some cleanly shift for the matter or I can tel you all wil be naught For your Religion is no more able to hold vp head if the Popes authoritie be cast downe then a man that hath neuer a leg is able to stand vpright It will go the harder with you in this matter because if I grant that the Pope cannot erre you are neuer a whit the nearer for the answering of my syllogisme as you may perceiue if you will but assay to apply that point for answer to either part thereof There is no other way but to giue ouer this your first reason against a priuate spirit and to make amends for it in the second if you can A. D. §. 3. Secondly the rule of faith must be infallible plainly knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall that is to say such as may sufficiently instruct all men in all points of faith without danger of errour as hath bene proued before But this priuate spirit is not such For first that man himselfe cannot be vnfallibly sure that he in particular is taught by the holy spirit For neither is there any promise in Scripture to assure him infallibly that he in particular is thus taught neither is there any other sufficient reason to perswade the same For suppose he haue such extraordinarie motions feelings or illustrations which he thinketh cannot come of himselfe but from some spirit yet he cannot in reason straightwayes conclude that he is thus moued and taught by the spirit of God For sure it is that euery spirit is not the Spirit of God As there is the spirit of truth so there is a spirit of errour As there is an Angell of light so there is a Prince of darknesse Yea sometimes Ipse Sathanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Sathan himselfe doth transfigure himselfe into an Angell of light Wherefore he had need very carefully to put in practise the aduise of Saint Iohn who saith Nolite credere omni spiritui sed probate spiritus si ex Deo sint Doe not beleeue euerie spirit but prooue and trie them whether they be of God or no. Neither doth it seeme sufficient that a priuate man trie them onely by his owne iudgement or by those motions feelings or illuminations which in his priuate conceit are conformable to Scripture because all this triall is verie vncertaine and subiect to errour by reason that our owne iudgement especially in our own matters is verie easily deceiued and that Sathan can so cunningly couer himselfe vnder the shape of a good Angell and so colour his wicked designements with pretense of good and so gild his darke and grosse errours with the glistering light of the words and seeming sense of scripture that hardly or not at all he shall be perceiued VVherefore the safest way were to trie these spirits by the touchstone of the true Pastours of the Catholicke Church who may say with S. Paul Nō ignoramus cogitationes Satanae we are not ignorant of the cogitations of Sathan and who may also say with S. Iohn Nos ex Deo sumus qui nouit Deum audit nos qui non est ex Deo non audit nos In hoc cognoscimus spiritum veritatis spiritum erroris VVe are of God he that knoweth God heareth vs he that is not of God doth not heare vs. In this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of errour Now if any will not admit this manner of trying discerning the spirit of truth from the spirit of errour but will trust their owne iudgement alone in this matter feare they may iustly nay rather they may be sure as Cassian saith that they shall worship in their thoughts the Angell of darknesse for the Angel of light to
compendious resolution of faith Which before I examine let me here againe put you in minde that you condemne the greatest part of all your Schoolemens writings as needlesse and fruitlesse doubts questions and disputes and call them vnsetled minds that spend their time and spirits in such matters And surely such were many of the points they handled hauing nothing in them but vanitie and vexation of spirit as may appeare to name one for all by their articles and questions vpon Lombard and Thomas about the Masse But is anie man to be found so shamelesse as that he dare call it a needlesse and fruitlesse labour to search the Scripture for the finding out of the truth in such matters as are necessarily to be beleeued for the attaining to saluation Doth the neglect of this dutie bring a man good leisure and liking to build himselfe vp in the loue of God What loue of God can there be where there is no delight in his word Dauid makes it his meditation day and night and preferres the sweetnesse he finds in it and the account he makes of it before honie and the honie combe fine gold and all maner of riches But what should I heape vp vnnecessarie testimonies in a case not doubtfull Is it possible they should be Christians that make so small reckoning of the testament of Iesus Christ Can he be said truly to loue his father that neuer cares to see what his fathers loue to him is but contents himselfe with so much knowledge of it as men list to impart to him yea that knowes not whether he had such a father or no but onely as other men haue told him We say not that euery man is bound vpon hazzard of his saluation to know euery point of difference betwixt you and vs or to vnderstand the sense of euery place of Scripture but that all true Christians must labour for as much knowledge as by diligent hearing reading and meditating of the Scirptures they can attaine to Neither shall they by this study and endeuour either abate their loue to God or depriue themselues of the sense of his loue to them Nay rather both the one and the other shal be increased when a man shall feele the work of Gods spirit in his heart kindling in him a desire to vnderstand the mystery of his redemption by Iesus Christ to comprehend the infinitenesse of the loue of God the Father and enlightning him to conceiue that which by his owne skill he neuer were able to discerne But they that follow your resolution neuer come rightly to vnderstant what the loue of God to them is but if they will consider things aduisedly must needes thinke God hath dealt hardly with them as with seruants not with sonnes whom he shuts out from the knowledge of his will and view of his wisdome maiestie manifested in the writings of the old and new Testament affoording them no more of that heauenly Manna but such chippings and parings as their idle and prowd prelates will vouchsafe to cast them He that finds the loue of God toward him in opening to him the true sense of the Scripture in matters concerning his euerlasting saluation doth beare more true loue to God for it then any Papist can do that glorieth in his blind obedience to men maketh the end of his louing God the deseruing of euerlasting life by his ignorance of the Scriptures As for true holinesse of life whence doth it arise but from the feeling of Gods loue to vs whereby the spirit of God which dwels in vs inflames our hearts with the affections of kind children to so louing a father Can you imagine that he who hath at most but a kind of perswasion of I know not what holy inspirations blessings of Gods spirit vpon some Priests or Iesuits word can loue God as truely and feruently as he that knowes by the truth of God in the Scripture that the spirit of God dwels in all Gods children one of whom the same spirit assures him he is Your Papist must liue holily that he may become the temple of God a true Christian knowes he cannot liue holily but by the holy Ghosts dwelling in him and making him the temple of God And can it be a question whether of these two loueth God more deatly But I haue bene too long in your Preface Now to the Treatise it selfe A. D. A TREATISE OF FAITH CHAP. I. That true faith is absolutely necessary to saluation A. W. TRue faith whether we take it for an assent to the truth of that which God hath reuealed or for beleeuing in God is absolutely necessary onely for those which are come to yeares of discretion not for them that die in their infancie Which I deliuer not by way of confutation but of explication because I am perswaded you and I agree in this point A. D. §. 1. Whosoeuer hath a true desire to please God and an earnest care to saue his owne soule the which should be the chiefest desire and care of euery Christian man must first resolue and settle himselfe in a sound beliefe of matters of faith holding it for a most assured ground That there is a faith which whosoeuer wanteth cannot possibly please God nor consequently be saued sith none are saued that do not please God A. W. Faith being so diuersly taken both in Scripture and other writings it had bin fit for him that professeth plainnesse either to haue set downe the seuerall significations of the word or to haue shewed in what sense he himselfe vseth it in this treatise Bellarmine giues it foure significations Sanders six Vega nine Yea this author himselfe as it shall appeare taketh it not alwayes in one and the same sense but diuersly as it best fitteth his present purpose especially in one of these two significatiōs either for the habit or quality of faith whereby we are enabled to beleeue or for the obiect of the same faith that is for the things that are to be beleeued Example we haue of both in this first Chapter Matters of faith are such points as we are bound to beleeue That faith which whosoeuer wanteth cannot please God is the qualitie of faith in the soule And these diuers vses of the word are within the compasse of three lines To which I may adde a third sense out of this same chapter where by faith actuall beleeuing is vnderstood as in the places of Scripture alledged For i. is not the hauing but the vsing of faith that iustifieth So thē where he saith that true faith is absolutely necessary to saluation his meaning is that no man can be saued vnlesse he do assent to the truth of those matters which God hath enioyned all men to beleeue or that there are certaine points to be beleeued without assent to the truth whereof no man can be saued But what need was there of this discourse since both parties that were to conferre
intēded by the holy Ghost at the least in many places it cannot be the Apostles meaning that no man knoweth the sense of our Lord in the Scripture But the more you mistake the sense of the holy Ghost in Scripture the better you proue your opinion that no naturall wit or learning can bring a man to the vnderstanding thereof onely you must take heed of ouerweening your owne wit and learning and so of erring by drawing a generall conclusion against all men from your owne defect which also perhaps is not so much for want of wit or learning as for lacke of paines taking and because of a preiudicate conceit against the truth A. D. §. 4. Hence I inferre that those who for matters of faith relie wholy either vpon their owne priuate opinion or iudgement of the sense and meaning of Scripture or vpon the learning and iudgement of others who are but men not infallibly assisted by the holy Ghost nor by him vnfallibly preserued from errour as many or rather all Protestants do those I say cannot haue diuine and Christian faith but onely fallible opinion and humane faith As before I granted your conclusion that naturall wit and learning cannot be the rule of faith so I now acknowledge the truth of your illation which you bring in thereupon that he which relieth wholly vpon his owne priuate opinion or any other mans iudgement can haue no true faith Yet must I again remember that to rely vpon such opinion or iudgement is to take that for truth which is taught barely vpon the credit of the teacher For otherwise a man may haue a true faith that is a certain and infallible assent to the truth though he beleeue vpon euident reason those points interpretations which are proued to him by men without any infallible authoritie of the Church But whereas you charge many or rather all Protestants to rely so vpon the iudgement of men I hope you do it without the authoritie of your Church that cannot erre for I am sure you do it without any shew of truth No Protestant of any discretion not onely not all beleeueth the doctrine of the Gospell in generall or any one particular interpretation as a matter of faith vpon any mans credit whatsoeuer This reuerence indeed we giue to our teachers that we rather trust their iudgement then our owne and dare not dissent from them but where we haue great likelihood of reason at least to the contrary Howsoeuer we ground no point of faith vpon any interpretation which is not plaine and euident to any man that will take paines to examine it according to true reason A. D. CHAP. IX That a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith A. W. A man may easily perceiue that you chuse to say any thing rather then nothing and therefore you make your selfe worke Chapter after Chapter I shall not need to repeate that which I haue noted before this Chapter giueth sufficient euidence of that I say What a strange kind of speech is this that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith No spirit neither priuate nor publick is ordinarily the rule of faith no not the most holy spirit of God but onely as he speaketh in the Scripture who alwayes teacheth one and the same truth publickly and priuately A. D. §. 1. The third conclusion is that no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit can be this rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church A. W. This is the interpretation of the title of your Chapter No priuate spirit that is no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit c. I cannot tel whether I shold thinke you haue forgotten to speake English or purposely affect as strange doctrine so strange speech also To be singularly instructed with vs plaine Englishmen is to be taught in rare and excellent sort not to be apart or seuerally alone instructed which is your meaning I grant mens priuat opinions are called singular and the men themselues that haue such conceits are also so termed but he that professeth plainnesse to teach all kind of men should labour to speake so that all might vnderstand him But to the matter Whose opinion is it that any such man as you conceit or any man at all can be the rule of faith Sure not ours who as it hath often bene said giue this honour only to the word of God If any man hold that opinion vnlesse perhaps the senslesse Anabaptists with whom we haue nothing to do you are they who as it seemeth by the exception you adde grant that with limitation a man may be the rule of faith For you say he cannot be the rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church Do you not imply in this speech that so farre forth as he agreeth with the doctrine of the Catholick Church he may be the rule of faith But I obserue one rare thing in your course of disputing that you ordinarily propound your matter in such sort that you are faine presently after to make one exception or other Scripture alone say you cannot be the rule of faith is this all you meane No a limitation followeth Especially as it is translated by Protestants into English No naturall wit or learning can be the rule of faith What by no meanes except they be infallibly assisted by the holy spirit of God In this Chapter we haue the like course held by you But leaue we this and be take our selues to consider your proofe A. D. §. 2. This I proue first because Saint Paul saith Si quis vobis euangelizauerit praeter id quod accepistis Anathemasit pronouncing generally that whosoeuer teacheth or preacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church should be held Anathematized or accursed A. W. Your reason is thus to be framed He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith First I desire all men to obserue that this argument of yours doth not proue that a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith but onely so farre forth as he doth disagree from the doctrine of the Church otherwise for all this reason he may be Wherein you speake absurdly and falsly Absurdly in propounding such a question to refute as neither we whom you professe to refute nor any reasonable man would euer once imagne viz. that a priuate spirit teaching an vntruth might be the rule of faith For how can that be but an vntruth which is contrary to that the Apostle deliuered by his preaching
their exceeding great harme And at least how soeuer their priuate affection selfe-loue encline them to think well of themselues and of that spirit which they permit to teach them those singuler points of new strange doctrine yet sure it is that this their perswasion of the goodnesse of their spirit is not infallible as the rule of faith must be sith diuers now adaies perswade themselues in the same manner to be taught by the holy spirit and yet one of them teaching against another it is not possible that all that thus perswade themselues should be taught by this spirit sith this spirit doth neuer teach contrarie to it selfe And therefore some in this their perswasion must needs be deceiued And therefore who hauing no testimonie of euident miracle or some other vndoubted proofe dare arrogantly affirme that he onely is not deceiued especially in such sort as to condemne all other and to propose himselfe to himselfe and others as the onely sufficient rule of faith considering that others who presume perswade themselues altogether in like manner are in this their perswasion deceiued A. W. I must againe put the Reader in minde that no Protestant maintaines that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith neither will I vndertake the defence of any such matter but onely examine his reasons against it as I haue done in the former chapters in the like case His reason is thus to be concluded The rule of faith must be infallible plaine knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall A priuate spirit is not such Therefore a priuate spirit is not the rule of faith Of the proposition I spake at the sixth chapter and shewed the fault of it in respect of the second propertie which is easinesse to be vnderstood of all men as it is expounded by your selfe All the doubt now is in the assumption of the three points wherin you go about to prooue but only the first of infallibility It should seeme your stomacke is greater against the scripture then against either natural wit learning or priuate spirit For you disprooue the abilitie of these two but in respect of one property namely the first as if for the other two they or either of them were sufficient enough But you allow the Scripture neuer a one of the three you condemne it of obscuritie you accuse it of defect for wanting diuers points necessarie to saluation And although you do not simply denie the infallibilitie of it yet you make all knowledge that can be had out of our English translation verie vncertaine so that none of our people can haue any benefite by the scripture as by the rule of faith or word of God but onely some few that vnderstand Hebrew or Greeke But I perceiue you were more afraid that the scripture would be taken for the rule of faith then you were that either of the other would Let vs see how you proue your assumption since you wil needs put your selfe to more paines then was looked for He say you that cannot assure himselfe and other men that he is taught by the holy Ghost cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit cannot assure himselfe and other men that he is so taught Therefore a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith There is some cause to doubt of your maior For it is not necessarie that the rule of faith should know it selfe to be the rule The Pope you thinke is the rule of faith Put case that some Pope should doubt whether himselfe were infallibly directed in all his determinations by the holy Ghost or no should he by reason of this doubting cease to be the rule of faith I dare say you thinke not so Neuer vrge me with the impossibilitie of this matter For both it is possible if he that is no Christian may be Pope of Rome If Iohn the 22 doubted of the immortalitie of the soule if Leo 10. counted the history of our Sauiour Christ a fable and it is all one to my answer whether it may be or no it is enough for me if the Pope may be the rule though he should so doubt You should haue done well if you had kept your former warie course of adding some exception to your assumption It had not bene altogether without need For out of question a priuate spirit may be so assured by reuelation as the Prophets and Apostles were And by such meanes a man may come to assurance for all the subtiltie of Sathan the Lord being able to make the motions of his spirit knowen to whom he please what shift soeuer Sathan vse to the contrarie The Minor therefore without this exception be either expressed or vnderstood is vntrue otherwise it is true As for the triall you propound by the touchstone of the true pastors of the Catholicke Church it is vtterly insufficient in this case It may be and is indeed a meanes of great authoritie and vse to direct a man in finding out and holding the truth but it is no certaine proofe that a man hath found or doth hold the truth in all points because those pastors as in due place shall appeare may all be deceiued without the Popes especiall direction But admit their iudgement or authoritie were in the matter infallible yet could no man thereby be assured that himselfe is taught particularly by the holy Ghost For many men hold the truth of God as the true Church doth and yet haue no such teaching by the spirit since it is certaine a man may deliuer truth and he himselfe not beleeue Of your testimonies out of scripture touching the Pastors of the Church I will say onely thus much by the way that the Pastors can speake neither of those sentences truely of themselues but in a measure They know the deuises of Sathan but in part not wholy He that knoweth God heareth them not simply in all points for he that knoweth God may doubt of some point deliuered by the true Pastors of the Church who also are no farther to be heard then they can shew that they speake to be from God The Apostles euerie one of them seuerally knew all things which the Lord thought fit to make knowen to men and were to be heard without any doubting of that they deliuered with them that priuiledge died and all men now are tied to the triall of their doctrine by the scriptures The conclusion of this discourse concerneth either no man in the world or if any the Pope of Rome your Lord God For the Anabaptists themselues are not so absurd and shamelesse as to make any one of their sect the onely sufficient rule of all mens faith but euerie man claimeth though falsly and lewdly a priuiledge of not erring for himselfe Onely your insolent Pope will haue all men to depend vpon his iudgement and in comparison of himselfe disdaineth all writers and all Councils whatsoeuer What promises he hath
beleeue a simple husbandman a child or an old woman rather then the Pope and a thousand Bb. if these speake against the Gospell and the other with it Then belike a priuate man may see some truth which is not generally discerned The place of Austin you bring doth not condemne all interpretations or opinions which some one man findeth out and holdeth but onely reproueth them who in expounding the places of Scripture which wil beare a diuers sense vrge one onely not because it is truth but because they like it best His example is out of Genesis concerning the sense of those words In the beginning God created heauen and earth They know not which of those diuers senses that may be Moses did intend saith Austin but they loue their owne opinion not because it is true but because it is their owne What doth this concerne vs who as we giue euery man of iudgement leaue to propound his interpretation to be examined so permit no man to thrust any exposition vpon the Church which he cannot make euident proofe of by sound reason Neither is it then taken as his priuate conceit but acknowledged as the truth of God manifested by his industrie In doubtfull places we follow the likeliest sense without any resolute determining what is true what false therefore cannot with any shew of reason be charged to appropriate the knowledge of Gods truth to our selues where it hath pleased his Maiestie so to propound it that of diuers senses a man cannot certainly affirme that this or that is true A. D. CHAP. X. That the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule of faith A. W. If you had mentioned nothing but the doctrine of the true Church we might haue vnderstood you without any cause of doubting but now you ad teaching to doctrine we are enforced to enquire farther into your meaning For we are vncertaine whether by those words you meane one and the same thing or no. The doctrine of the Church is that which the Church propoundeth to be beleeued whether by word of mouth or in writing Teaching if we make it differ from doctrine is that onely which is deliuered by voice to the eare If we vnderstand you in the former sense for teaching by writing as well as by word of mouth the latter word was needlesse if in the latter of writing onely then the same doctrine written is not the rule of faith which vttered by a teacher will become such a rule not because it is true but because it is taught by authoritie A. D. §. 1. The fourth conclusion is that this infallible rule which euery one ought to follow in all points of faith is the doctrine and teaching of the true Church or companie of the true faithfull of Christ A. W. That we may the better vnderstand what you say and how you proue your saying there are a few things to be considered in this fourth condition First by the faithfull of Christ you must meane those that professe Christian Religion whether they beleeue as they professe or no as I haue shewed out of Bellarmine who doubtlesse knoweth what the Church is as well as you If you be of any other opinion by your owne rule we may reiect it for the priuatnesse thereof Secondly where you say the true faithfull it is not your purpose to speake as we for whom you writ this commonly doe of them that haue a true iustifying faith but of them that professe the doctrine of the Gospell according to the true sense and meaning of it whether they haue any iustifying faith or no. Thirdly by this companie or Church whom vnderstand you If the whole number of the beleeuers as well Laitie as Cleargie I oppose the iudgement of your owne Doctours against you who speaking of the Churches doctrine and teaching restraine the word onely to the Pope and Bishops The spirit saith Bellarmine is certainly found in the Church that is in a Councell of Bishops confirmed by the chiefe Pastor of the whole Church or in the chiefe Pastor with a Councell of the other Pastors If you follow Bellarmine I demaund whether your Laity be none of the true faithfull of Christ nor parts of the Church But to leaue this doubt wee are thus to conceiue your meaning that the doctrine which the Pope and other Pastors of the Church namely Bb. deliuer in a Councell is the rule of faith Now let vs propound your reason and examine it but first I confesse that I dare not resolutely determine whether it be brought in by you for a proofe of any thing that hitherto hath bene spoken or intended onely as a discourse concerning the authoritie of the Church If we apply it to any matter alreadie past as farre as I am able to conceiue it must be a second proofe of the proposition or maior of your maine Syllogisme in this manner If the doctrine and teaching of the true Church be the infallible rule which all men ought to follow then the faith which the authority of the true Church commends to vs is to be holden for the true faith But the doctrine and teaching of the true church is the infallible rule that all men ought to follow Therfore the faith which the authoritie of the true Church commendeth to vs is to be holden for the true faith This reasonable coherence we may make betwixt this Chapter and your former course without changing or weakning any part or point of your proofe which is applied to the confirming of this last minor the argument of this Chapter A. D. §. 2. This I proue by this reason If our Sauiour Christ hath promised to any company of men the presence of himselfe and the assistance of his holy spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth giuing withall peculiar charge and commission to them to teach all nations and to preach to euery creature giuing also warrant to all that they may safely heare them giuing also commandement whereby he bindeth all to do in all things according to their saying and threatning greatly those who will not heare and beleeue them then certainly the doctrine and teaching of these men is in all points most true and infallible and such as if the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not as they are not wanting may well be proposed to all sorts as an assured ground whereupon they may safely build an infallible Christian faith For looke what our Sauiour Christ hath promised must needs be performed and whatsoeuer he warranteth or commandeth may safely and without danger of error be done nay must of necessitie be done especially when he threatneth those that will not do it and consequently if he haue promised to send his holy Spirit to teach any companie of men all truth it is not to be doubted but that he sendeth this his holy Spirit and by it teacheth them all truth and fith the teaching of his
Spirit is vnfallible we are not to doubt but that this companie is in all points infallibly taught the truth If also the same our Sauiour gaue warrant and commandement that they should teach vs and that we should heare them and do in all things according to their saying we may not likewise doubt but that they shall be able to teach all sorts of men in all points the infallible truth and that all sorts of men may if they will learne of that companie what in all points is the infallible truth For otherwise by this generall commaundement of hearing them and doing according to their saying we should be bound somtime to heare and beleeue an vntruth and to doe that which were not vpright and good which without blasphemie to Christ his veritie and goodnesse can no way be thought A. W. 1 If our Sauiour Christ say you hath promised to any companie his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature 3 If he haue giuen warrant to all that they may safely heare them 4 If he haue giuen commaundement to all to doe in all things according to their saying 5 If he haue threatned them who will not heare and beleeue them 6 If the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not wanting then the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow But our Sauiour Christ hath so 1. promised 2. charged 3. warranted 4. commaunded 5. threatned and 6. the other conditions required are not wanting Therefore the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow I haue propounded this Syllogisme as your selfe haue set it downe saue onely that I haue endeuored to make it somewhat shorter keeping your sense whole and full Now for the proposition I grant the consequence vpon all those conditions ioyntly considered to be sound and good Howsoeuer some of them might well haue bene omitted for example 1 If our Sauiour haue promised his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to teach a certaine companie of men all truth then the doctrine of the Church is the rule of faith This consequence is but weake for Christ may affoord such presence and assistance to such a purpose and yet the effect not ensue by reason that those men faile in some duties required on their part Do not you affirme in this Treatise that God hath appointed meanes of saluation for all men with a true will to haue them saued and yet verie many yea the greatest part are not saued 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature then their preaching is the rule of faith Their commission is not simply to teach but to teach those things that our Sauiour himselfe commaunded and therefore their doctrine can be no farther the rule of faith then they preach according to their commission If I or an Angell from heauen saith the Apostle preach vnto you otherwise then that you haue receiued let him be accursed The same may be obiected against the third and the fifth points It doth not follow that their doctrine is the rule of faith because all men haue warrant to heare them safely or because they are threatned who will not heare and beleeue them For first they may be free from danger of erring and yet not know all points of faith which is made by you one condition of the rule Secondly vnlesse you enlarge the warrant as farre as the commaundement in the fourth point which is in a manner to confound them so that they may safely heare them in all things your consequence will still be naught Thirdly they may heare them safely though the other may erre if they haue means affoorded to examine that they deliuer skill and care to vse those meanes Fourthly the threatning for not beleeuing is to be restrained to their teaching as they ought Are not they threatned by our Sauiour who beleeue not any Minister lawfully authorised and preaching the truth Yet doth it not follow hereupon that they cannot erre or that their preaching is simply the rule of faith But these feeble consequences might all haue bene omitted by you and your matter as fully prooued if you had set downe none but the fourth and sixth points thus If God haue commaunded all men to doe in all things as the Church teacheth and the other conditions required in the rule be not wanting then their preaching is the rule that all men ought to follow This consequence is true and sufficient for your purpose the other serue for number to make a shew rather then for substance of weight But of your Maior this may be sufficient especially since I acknowledge the truth thereof A. D. §. 3. But so it is that Christ our Sauiour hath in holy Scripture promised giuen commission warranted commaunded and threatned in manner aforesaid Therefore we cannot doubt but that there is a certaine company the which is called the true Church of Christ which both is in all points of faith infallibly taught by the holy Spirit and is likewise to teach all sorts of men in all points of faith what is the infallible truth and therefore the teaching of this companie may well be assigned and proposed to all men as an vndoubted sufficient rule of faith A. W. I denie your Minor first in generall because our Sauiour did not so promise charge warrant commaund threaten in regard of any companie of men as if there had bene some ioynt teaching appointed by him but in respect of his Apostles and Ministers seuerally who in their proportion haue as much authoritie for necessitie of being beleeued seuerally one by one as iointly all together though such a ioynt consent is the more to be reuerenced and respected Secondly I denie it also in the fourth point which is the strength of it There neuer was since the Apostles any man or any companie of men according to whose saying we were commaunded to doe in all things Lastly I say the conditions required in the rule of faith are wanting in the teaching you vnderstand This conclusion of yours giueth me occasion to speake somewhat at large of the Church with the name whereof applied to your Pope alone or Pope and Cleargie you daily seduce many vnsetled and ignorant people The word Church in our English tongue seemeth first of all to haue bene applied to the Temple or place of Gods seruice as if it were called Kyrke of the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you would say the Lords house But the Hebrew Greek words which must be the Iudges in this matter signifie a Companie Congregation or Assemblie The Hebrew words are two the Greeke as many the Latin besides the two Greeke made Latin are diuers Populi people Coetus
are professedly against him Fourthly it may be that by the Church our Sauiour vnderstandeth according to the custome of the Iewes in those daies not any assemblie of the Cleargie about Church causes but generally the Councell of the Elders which had power to end diuers matters betwixt parties of their owne nation After which example the Apostle willeth the Corinthians to appoint Iudges amongst themselues that they might not dishonor God the professiō of christianity by going to law one with another vnder infidels If this course take not effect then saith our Sauiour deale with him as thou wouldest mightst deale with an heathen or Publican by following the Law against him in what Court thou thinkest best for thy aduantage And this exposition as farre as I can yet see seemeth agreeable to the text it selfe the purpose of our Sauiour who seemeth to speake onely or especially of priuat abuses and quarrels as might be shewed by diuers reasons and in part hath bene by a learned writer to whom I referre the Reader in this point Fiftly it is more then manifest that our Sauiour speaketh not of hearing or not hearing the word but of some quarell or sinfull action at the most which also is to be determined or corrected in each seuerall congregatiō as the testimonies of Chrysostome Theophylact Iansenius and Bellarmine declare Tell the Church not the vniuersall Church spread ouer the face of the earth but that particular Church in which euery man liueth and to which he is subiect saith Lucas of Bruges There is a treatise that goes vnder Cyprians name wherein the author out of this place concludeth that euery man must seeke to his owne Bishop All these things considered let euery one iudge whether this peece of scripture be fitly applied by you to proue that we must beleeue without doubting whatsoeuer the Church deliuereth But I wil propound the reason that all men may vnderstand and consider it If he that being proceeded withall first by admonition of one man alone then by the like with one or two witnesses lastly by the gouerners of the Church concerning some quarrell or matter of fact will not obey the voyce of the Church must be to vs as an heathen or a Publican then whosoeuer wil not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture But he that being so proceeded against in such a matter will not obey is so to be accounted of Therefore he that will not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture I haue framed this Syllogisme as euery man may see with the greatest aduantage that can reasonably be taken by this place to your purpose whereas I needed not haue allowed the interpretation on which the reason is grounded Al which notwithstanding who discerneth not the weaknesse of the consequence in the proposition What if such a man be so to be accounted of doth it follow therupon that euery one who beleeueth not the Church in all points is threatned First vnlesse the same course of proceeding be held why should the partie be threatned because where such a course is taken there a man is to be so reckoned of Secondly how doth it follow that if in iudgement concerning a matter of fact the Church must be hearkned to for reformation then in all matters whatsoeuer it is absolutely to be heard by all men Such are your proofes in points of greatest importance I refer the Reader to that which I answered before concerning this place to which I adde vpon the present occasion that our Sauiour sending forth his Ministers to preach the Gospell chargeth them to square their doctrine according to those things which they had receiued in commission from him therfore are they no farther to be obeyed then their preaching is warrantable for the particulars out of our Sauiours instructions giuen them which the Apostles directed by Gods spirit truly and faithfully deliuered first by word of mouth and after by writing to be the pillar as Irenaeus saith and foundation of our faith And if this place conuey any such authoritie to the Church it giueth the same to euery seuerall teacher as it did to euery one of the Apostles seuerally and so euery priest secular or regular must be heard and beleeued whatsoeuer he teach A. D. §. 9. Thus you see our Sauiour Christ hath promised to his Church the continuall presence of himselfe and of his holy Spirit to teach that companie all truth Whereof followeth that it is infallibly taught all truth Moreouer he hath giuen charge and commission to that Church to teach vs and hath warranted and commaunded vs in all points to heare and do according to the saying of this Church which proueth that it appertaineth to this church to instruct vs in all points of faith and that we ought to learne of it in all matters of religion what is the infallible truth and consequently that the doctrine of this Church is the rule of faith A. W. Neither we nor you can see any such thing if we looke no farther then the holy Ghost directeth vs who assureth vs of no more but that the Apostles should be so instructed and guided that they should not erre in their teaching either by word of mouth or by writing by reason of ignorance or any other peruerse affection and that all the childrē of God shall be so taught and protected that they shall neuer fall away from saluation by Christ As for your Church or certaine companie that is your Cleargie and Pope assembled in a generall Councell neither those places of Scripture you haue brought nor any other you can bring once make mention of any such promise to them Therefore haue we no warrant to heare and doe in all points according to the saying of any Church not onely not of yours but so far as that Church teacheth according to the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ in the Scripture which is the rule of faith A. D. §. 10. Worthily therefore doth S. Paul call this Church columnam firmamentū veritatis the pillar and ground of truth Worthily also saith S. Austin Scripturarum à nobis tenetur veritas cum id facimus quod vniuersae placet Ecclesiae quam earundem Scripturarum commendat authoritas vt quoniam Scriptura sancta fallere non potest quisquis falli metuit huius obscuritate quaestionis Ecclesiam de illa consulat quam sine vlla ambiguitate Scriptura sancta demonstrat The truth of the Scriptures is holden of vs when we do that which pleaseth the vniuersall or whole Church the which is commended by the authoritie of the Scriptures themselues that because the holy Scripture cannot deceiue whosoeuer feareth to be deceiued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgement of the Church which without any ambiguitie the holy Scripture doth demonstrate by which words he sheweth plainly that the sentence of
Church of God But it is absurd both in reason and religion to preferre the iudgement of any priuate man be he neuer so wittie and learned or neuer so strongly perswaded in his owne minde that he is taught by the Spirit before the iudgement and definitiue sentence of the Church of God the which is a companie of men many of which both are and alwayes haue bene vertuous wise and learned and which is chiefe is such a companie as according to the absolute and infallible promises of our Sauiour hath vndoubtedly the holy spirit among them guiding them and teaching them all truth and not permitting them to erre as before hath bin proued A. W. There is the same fault in this fift argument which was in the former that it is brought to proue a proposition which we denie not If before we giue absolute credit to the Church we must iudge whether euery particular point it holdeth be true or no then we may make our selues iudges ouer the true Church But we may not make our selues iudges ouer the true Church Therefore we must not iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no before we giue absolute credit to the Church This conclusion supposeth that which can neuer be proued that we are first or last to giue absolute credit to the Church whereof in this Chapter there is no question The point you vndertake to disproue is that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is a good marke of a true Church This therfore you should haue concluded though indeed it make nothing against our opinion who require not for a marke of the true Church truth of doctrine in euery point but in all points fundamentall Your proposition is deceitfully propounded as if we granted a companie to be the true Church and yet would take vpon vs to receiue and reiect what we list whereas we hold that we cannot acknowledge any true Church but we must withall yeeld that it maintaineth all substantiall points of Religion from which we may not vary Secondly for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church is to take authoritie vpon him to censure reproue and condemne the Church wheras all that we desire is that it may be free for vs to discerne that the doctrine held by this or that Church is agreeable to the Scriptures before we acknowledge it to be a true Church It is meere absurd and vnreasonable to prefer any priuate mans iudgement before the definitiue sentence of the church of God But it is agreeable both to reason and Religion that euery priuate man whose saluation lieth vpon his true or false beleeuing should consider whether that which he is enioyned by men to beleeue be warrantable by the word of God or no. The Scribes and Pharises were the leaders of the people in the matters of Religion yet were they blinde guides and the blind people by depending vpon their iudgement were caried headlong into the same pit of destruction with them Were not the men of Beroea commended by the holy Ghost for searching the Scriptures that they might see whether the doctrine deliuered by Paul were agreeable thereto or no And yet shall it be a fault in vs to enquire of the same Scripture concerning the doctrine of your Apostaticall synagogue I say farther it is against reason and Religion to prefer any one mans iudgement before the definitiue sentence of many wise vertuous and learned men such as the Church hath vsually some amongst the members thereof But it is most reasonable and religious to prefer the truth of God manifested by one simple man before the contrary determination of all that euer haue bin or shal be of the Church though neuer so wise vertuous and learned This is that which we teach concerning this matter First that no man is bound to take any thing for a matter of faith but that which is proued to him by the Scriptures the rule of faith Secondly that no man is to condemne any thing held by the Church vnlesse he haue euident proofe on his side out of the Scriptures Thirdly that euery man in matters not determinable by Scripture none of which are necessarie to saluation should yeeld to the iudgement of the Church whereof he is a member and euery Church to the iudgement of the Christian Churches other where vnlesse there be some good reason to the contrary It is very possible for wise vertuous and learned men to erre for your priuiledge of not erring hath bin found to be counterfait who oftentimes follow the opinion of some one man whose learning and pietie they cannot chuse but admire Domingo à Soto affoords vs an example of this matter where hauing alledged a sentence out of Austin he addeth these words By reason of this saying of Austin quoth Soto all the Fathers afterward and the whole multitude of Diuines haue by good right deliuered it as a truth that the glorious Virgin neuer committed any actuall sinne though Chrysostome auncienter then he were of another opinion Let it be then vnlawfull as it is for a priuate man to prefer his owne opinion before the iudgement of a whole Church and in this sense I graunt your minor yet is it not vnlawfull for him to examine what any or all Churches teach or to dissent from it if he haue the Scripture for his warrant A. D. §. 7. But you may perhaps say that in Scripture we are willed not to beleeue euery priuate spirit but to trie spirits whether they be of God or no and that therefore we must examine and trie the spirit of the Church by looking into euery particular point of doctrine which it teacheth I answer that in that place of Scripture it is not meant that it belongeth to euery particular man to trie all spirits but in generall the Scripture giueth the Church warning not to accept euery one that boasteth himselfe to haue the Spirit and willeth that they should trie those spirits not that euery simple or priuate man should take vpon him to trie them but that those of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine to wit the Doctors and Pastors which Almightie God hath put in his Church of purpose Vt non circumferamur omni vento doctrinae that we may not be caried away with euery wind of doctrine and Vt non simus paruuli fluctuantes that we may not be little ones wauering with euerie blast of those that boast themselues to be singularly taught by the spirit So that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no and then also this triall belongeth to the Pastors of the true church But when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither neede nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it but submitting obediently the iudgement of our owne sense
this world but the whole societie of the faithful from time to time But these gay shewes of Catholike Church Vniuersalitie antiquitie vnitie succession and such like are fit to deceiue the ignorant for which purpose your discourses are written with whō they preuaile by the iust iudgement of God who sends them strong delusions that they may beleeue lyes because they haue not embraced the loue of the truth that they might be saued A. D. §. 6. First because it is very briefe and compendious and consequently such as euery one might haue leysure and should not be much weary to reade it A. W. You deale in your corrupt writings as leud men do in slanderous reports who speake anie thing at aduenture though neuer so vntrue or vnlikely It is hard but some men will either beleeue or make doubt of it at the least So all men reade your writings you care not Though they that are of knowledge and iudgement discerne your falshood yet it is twentie to one but some ignorant fellow will light on them that may be seduced And this practise you follow the rather because you are for the most part out of feare of being shamed by confutation for that you are vnknowne and know well inough that our answers to you are commonly and many times must be so large that one amongst manie can hardly find leisure to reade them Whereas if the authors of your treatises were knowne amongst vs and our answers applied shortly and plainely to the verie point of the argument that being disrobed of the idle ornaments you cloath it withall and laid naked to the view of true reason we should haue as few of your discourses as we haue now of your replies to our refutations of your treatises which are so few that in many yeares it is rare to haue anie second charge by you vnlesse it be in such a fight as requires no more but a brauado without coming to handie blowes A. D. §. 7. Secondly because it standing onely vpon few but most certaine conclusions and grounds is free from many cauils of the captious which more ample discourses are subiect vnto A. W. To speake truly and properly there is but one conclusion in your whole Treatise as I haue shewed out of this your Preface Against which we also oppose one as briefe and more certaine then yours Your conclusion is That the faith and beliefe which the authority of the Romane Church doth commend vnto vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith Ours That the faith which the Scripture teacheth vs is the onely true faith If you speake of the seuerall cōclusions belonging to the proofe of the generall there are at the least as many as there are Chapters But if you meane the three grounds which you signifie before and repeate afterwards they are so farre from being certaine that there is neuer a one of them true as you vnderstand them A. D. §. 8. Thirdly because the matter handled in it is not very high nor hard but common easie and plaine and such as may be vnderstood of any who hauing but a reasonable wit or vnderstanding wil carefully read it as the importance of the matter requireth with iudgement deliberation and which is chiefe with prayer to God and a resolute good will to follow that which he shall find to be right A. W. The matter is as hard by your handling of it as sophistrie can well make it as high as the deepe foundation of religion Yet I denie not but it may be vnderstood by a man of such parts and paines as you require and adde farther that the like may be auowed of the true grounds of religion as they are contained in the Scripture to the reading and meditation whereof the Lord himself hath promised such a blessing as your treatises if they were neuer so true could not looke for Is not the fountaine better then the chanell A. D. §. 9. Fourthly because these fewe plaine points which are here set downe include all other and whosoeuer shall by the helpe of Gods grace and the force of these or other reasons yeeld assent to the points proued in this discourse must by consequence without further disputing or difficultie yeeld to all particular points which the aforesaid Church commendeth for points of faith and will be moued to settle himselfe in the stedfast beliefe of all For if he once admit that there is a Church or company of men on earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in all points and that this Church is by Gods appointment to teach all men in all matters of faith which is the infallible truth and further that this Church which is thus taught and must teach vs is no other but that visible company which professeth the Romane faith then he shall not need to straine his wits in studying or to wast words in wrangling about particular points of controuersies or to vse any such troublesome and vncertaine meanes to find out the truth but may easily and most certainly be instructed in all by onely enquiring and finding out which all sorts of men may easily do what is generally holdē by the Church for truth in all particular points whereof they doubt A. W. If these few points be so conuenient because in thē all other are included why should not our doctrine of the Scripture be as conuenient by the same reason Let vs compare our assertions together The first of yours is That a man must admit that there is a company of men on earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in all points The first of ours That a man must beleeue that there is a written word of God wherein the holy Ghost hath certainely taught whatsoeuer is needfull to be knowne to saluation Your second is That this company of men is by Gods appointment to teach all men in all matters of faith which is the infallible truth Our second That this written word of God is appointed by him to teach all men in all matters of faith what is true what false Your third That this company of men is no other but the visible company which professeth the Romane faith Our third That this written word is no other but the bookes of the old and new Testament The proofe of your positions and the exceptions you take against ours shal be handled if it please God in their due places in the meane time if any mā be troubled with those ordinarie doubts which you haue buzzed into the common peoples eares concerning the vncertainty and hardnesse of the Scriptures let me intreat him to stay himselfe a while vpon these considerations First that the bookes of the old and new Testament acknowledged by vs are also confessed by you to be the verie word of God in the penning whereof the penners were so directed by the holy Ghost that they could not erre Therefore whatsoeuer the meanes
must be entire Can you giue me a sufficient reason of this difference A. D. §. 1. This one infallible faith without which we cannot please God must also be entire whole and sound in all points and it is not sufficient to beleeue stedfastly some points misbeleeuing or not beleeuing obstinately other some or any one A. W. There are two things to be considered in your propounding of this questiō concerning the entirenesse of faith in what sense all points must be beleeued and what it is to misbeleeue or obstinately not to beleeue Whatsoeuer is deliuered in Scriptures is a matter of faith because it is the word of God who can neither deceiue nor be deceiued and hath propounded it to men for a truth to be beleeued But yet there is a great difference betwixt things set downe in Scripture and that difference is in 2. respects For neither are all points therein true in the like sense neither is there like necessitie of beleeuing euery particular Concerning the former the generall reason why all things in the Scriptures are true is this because all things therein are recorded deliuered by God for true therfore questionles they are true yet as once before I noted onely so farre forth true as they are intended to be held for true by the holy Ghost the author of the Scripture Whatsoeuer is registred therein by vvay of report as a story is to be taken as true onely in respect of story that we may not doubt whether such or such things were done and said or no. There is no doubt to be made but that the fiue bookes of Moses the bookes of Iosua Iudges Ruth Samuel Kings Chronicles c. containe a true and certaine story of those things whereof they intreate But in these bookes we haue some worthy and holy speeches of godly men some leud and blasphemous words of profane wretches The former are to be acknowledged for the truth of God euery way As for example it is true that Iacob vttered those prophesies of the twelue Patriarks his sonnes and it is also true that those prophesies of his were the very truth of God It is as true that Rabshaketh deliuered those blasphemous threanings against the Lord and his people but it is not true that those words came from God as Iacobs did so Iacobs were to be taken as euery way true Rabshakeths onely as truly reported from his mouth Now that all points are not alike necessary to saluation no man can make any question if he remember that a man may be saued though he haue neuer heard of many things that are recorded in the Scripture which is the case generally of the greatest part both of Protestants and Papists and hath alwayes bene the case of Christians in all ages As for misbeleeuing or not beleeuing obstinately one of these differs a great deale from the other and the latter of the two was needlesse if the former can be proued For if mistaking some point of doctrine be damnable it is out of doubt that obstinate refusing to beleeue the same point must needs make a man much more liable to damnation But indeed misbeleeuing is not in all points so dangerous though of it selfe as a sinne it is subiect to be punished with the eternall wrath of God in hell fire To make plaine that I say A man may misunderstand diuers places of Scripture and thereupon hold that to be true which is false and yet be saued for all this error For example that I may giue instāce in a matter of no small importance How many Christians yea how many great Diuines haue bin deceiued in the vnderstanding of our Sauior Christs genealogie and by their misconceiuing of the Euangelists haue fallen into no smal error that Salomon was the father of the Messiah By which opinion to omit many other things that I may not be too long the truth of a prophesie vttered by Ieremy which makes Ieconiah childlesse hath bin ouerthrown from whom our Sauiour must needs haue descended if he had bene the sonne of Salomon as some erroneously gather out of Saint Mathew and not of Nathan as it is manifest by S. Luke he was Shall I exemplifie this matter in another point The Apostles themselues for a long time euen til after the ascension of our Sauiour into heauen and till the comming of the holy Ghost vpō them looked for the establishing of an earthly kingdome in this world by their Lord and maister Did they not slip into this error by misbeleeuing the prophesies of the old testament concerning the Messiahs kingdome yet were they out of danger of damnation and in the state of grace all that time because they rested on our Sauiour Christ as the spirituall Sauiour of their soules that should tak away their sinnes and bring them to euerlasting life in heauen though they erroneously hoped for a temporall kingdome also The other branch of this distribution which concernes obstinately not beleeuing though it be a farre greater sinne then the former yet it is not such that it doth absolutely cut a man off from saluation This obstinate refusall to beleeue is either of ignorance or of wilfulnesse if a Christian stand stifly in some false opinion which he certainly holdeth to be true in his error the fault of his iudgement may continue without the damnation of his soule If wilfully he refuse to beleeue that truth of God which he discerneth no man can promise him any hope of saluation without true repentance This I speake vpon a supposition that it is possible for a man not to beleeue that which he perceiueth to be true though indeed there is a contradiction implied herein For to beleeue is to assent to the truth which a man cannot chuse but do that sees it that is no man can think the same thing in the same respects true and false But this not beleeuing in such a case is a frowardnesse of the heart not yeelding to acknowledge that he knowes rather then a false opinion in the braine by which a man is misled We are further to obserue that there is a second difference in this point in regard of the matter which is not beleeued If a man in his ignorance deny to beleeue that there is but one God that there are three persons that Iesus is the Messiah that we are redeemed by him that we are iustified by faith without workes or any other fundamentall point of religion he doth thereby shut himselfe out from all possibilitie of saluation as long as he continues in these errors or any of them But other points there are and those many more in number which a man by reason of his ignorance may obstinately refuse to beleeue and yet not be excluded out of heauen for such his error Let the former examples serue for breuities sake I haue bene longer then I would or meant to be but I was desirous to speake plaine
of Nice to follow and which they accordingly followed The bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles and the Oracles of the old prophets plainly instruct vs quoth that worthie Emperour what we are to iudge of matters concerning God Therefore laying aside all enemie-like discord let vs debate ad determine the points in question by the testimonies of the Scriptures inspired by God These as we heard before Ierome makes the bounds of the Church within which she must keepe her selfe and Proclus Archbishop of Constantinople confineth faith to the same place Faith saith he must abide within the Euangelicall and Apostolicall bounds Paschasius a Cardinall of your Church as you say many yeares since tied Macedonius the hereticke to the Scriptures equiring him either to shew by euident testimonies of the word of God that we must beleeue in the Church or else to vrge the point no further For as Chrysostome truly affirmeth If there be any thing needfull to be knowen we shall learne it in the Scriptures I mightfil whole sides with testimonies out of the Fathers to this purpose but I let them passe as needlesse especially since your selfe before confessed that the word of God is infallible and therefore in that respect sufficient to be the rule of faith Now to your conclusion The first part of this first conclusion is false in regard of the infallibilitie of Scripture which it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore balkt that matter and deuised an other point concerning our translation to play withall For what is it but trifling when a man leaues the thing in question and busies him selfe about the refuting of that which besides himselfe no man euer dreamed of What English protestant euer affirmed that our translation was infallible that is such as had no error in it or might not be doubted of Or who euer tooke it for the rule of faith You make babies which you beate as you list Against the Scriptures being the rule of faith which we affirme you say nothing Against the infallibilitie of our translation which we grant not to be the rule of faith you discourse at large wherein I intreate the Reader to consider these few things with me That which he speakes in disgrace of our translation makes no more against it then against all other whatsoeuer For neither is any translation the language in which the Scripture was written and no translators euer had any such infallible assistance by the holy Ghost Sure the author of the vulgar Latin translation had not such help as the Hebrew and Greek originals which the translations of all the learned Papists themselues declare Pagnin Vatablus Isidorus Clarius c. As for Gregory Martins cauils they were answered long since by D. Fulke and I maruell that you can name them without blushing seeing neuer a one of you durst vndertake the defence of them for the space of these 23. yeares Nay which is worse you were not ashamed in the second edition of your Rhemish Testament to bleare your blind followers eyes with a table of hereticall corruptions in translating the Scriptures as if you had propounded some new matter whereas they were all taken out of that booke of Martins and had long before bene iustified by D. Fulke without any reply on your parts You demaund how any vnlearned man can be infallibly sure that in those places which do seeme to fauour our sect our translation doth not erre I answer that there are better meanes of assurance for vnlearned Protestants concerning the truth of our translation then any Papist can haue by your imagined authoritie for your vulgar Latin First it is no slender perswasion to any reasonable man that those places you speake of if not wholy yet for the most part are translated with the same sense in other toungs which they haue in ours as in Spanish French Italian Flemish Dutch Secondly it is a great confirmation of the truth that many of those texts which seeme most to fauor vs are the same in your vulgar and Rhemish editions that they are in ours Thirdly the truth of ours is yet more cleare because euery man may see that in bookes of controuersie betwixt vs our translations are seldome denied by the learned of your side though you condemne our expositions Fourthly who may not easily discerne how much more faithfull our translation of those places all others is then yours seeing we are readie to make triall of it by the originals the learned on your sides being iudges you are afraid of nothing more then to haue yours examined by the Hebrew and Greeke Fiftly in the places you speake of our translations deserue the more credit because we labour to make them plaine for euery mans vnderstanding and shew how they agree with the rest of the booke and chapter wheras your Rhemish Testament is so handled that an English man of good vnderstanding can hardly tell what to make of it for the very words themselues in many places as if you auoided nothing more then plainnesse Sixtly we perswade all men as much as we can to labour for the knowledge of the originall tongues that so they may be able to iudge of our translation you do all you can to keepe men in the mist of ignorance because you are afraid to haue your corruptions discouered Seuenthly though we allow not our ministers such an infinite authoritie as you giue your Cleargie yet we teach that it becoms Christian charitie and modestie neither to suspect a translation where the analogie of faith is kept and the plaine meaning of the holy Ghost not manifestly altered nor to rest vpon priuate conceit against the generall iudgement of the learned without very euident proofe of error These amongst other are reasonable grounds for a Christian to build vpon that he may haue some good assurance of the truth of our translation Now let vs examine yours We must say you admit an infallible authoritie in the Church to assure vs that such or such a translation doth not erre in any point First this is more then neeeds For if that authoritie can assure vs that the translation erreth not in any point needfull to saluation in regard of the sense it may be a sufficient ground for vs to build our faith vpon though it should mistake some words in many points and the sense too in matters of lesse importance Secondly though we do admit such an authoritie in the Church yet may we be farre enough from any such assurance For how shall I be sure that the Church hath so affirmed of this or that translation How shal I know what the Church is A company you say of men vpon earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in al points Is this teaching cōmon to euery one of this company seuerally or only annexed to them all ioyntly when they are together What if all what if the greater part assemble
not Is this companie of Clergie men onely or of Lay men also If of them then belike these are none of the Church But let vs grant that which as it shal appeare in due place is neither true nor probable that the Clergie onely is the church howsoeuer they may be so representatiuely What assurance can any man haue who liueth not in the time of this assembly I might say in the place too where it is that there was any such assembly that the greatest part agreed to the approouing of such a translation that this is the translation they agreed to Especially seeing two Popes since the last Conuenticle of Trent haue set out your authentical translation diuersly Whether of these two was agreed on How shall I be infallibly assured that these Popes altered nothing in the translation allowed by the Councel Shall I say more What if this Councell vsed not the meanes of examining this translation by the originals What if most of them as it is most certaine had no skil in the originals and so did but leape after some few like sheepe not vnderstanding what they did yet the shoot Anchor holds the Pope allowed of their iudgement What if his skil were but indifferent He could not erre you will say What was the reason why he allowed that translation because the Councel examined and approued it But without him al they might erre especially if they did not vse all good meanes to find out the truth VVho assured him they did Shall we haue the holy Ghost like Mahomets doue to come and certifie the Pope of this doubt This is a matter of fact and in things of such nature the Pope may erre euen iudicially Well I will deale bountifully with you Put case all this be true How shal I attaine to infallible assurance hereof Forsooth some Priest or Frier Iesuite or other telleth me that things so passed and therefore I am bound to beleeue it Then my faith resteth not vpon the authority of the Church but vpō the credit of him that saith he is sent by the Church to make such report Thus it cometh to passe that the beleefe of vnlearned Papists is nothing else but a perswasion they haue that such a priest knoweth what is true and will not deceiue them with any false informations Tell me not of other Priests and Iesuits consenting with him that was thy spirituall father for all these together if there were ten times as many of them are not the Church in which onely this infallible authoritie is to be found And so there can be no such assurance in any vnlearned Papist of the truth of your vulgar or any other translation I confesse it is against both Charitie and Ciuilitie to suspect a man of vntruth without iust cause of suspition but such fruites grow vpon such rootes of Poperie that a man must needs be either vnciuill in giuing credit to nothing though vpon neuer so good reason or else ridiculously credulous in beleeuing euery thing that shal be told him though neuer so much against reason But the spirit of God teacheth and perswadeth men to beleeue the Church Are you they that mocke at priuate spirits and yet are glad to flie to that helpe Is it not as likely the spirit should teach men which is the Scripture as which is the Church And assure them of a translation as of this or that mans ordination and priesthood If such proofes as I haue spoken of before will serue wee are nothing inferiour to you but as well for weight as number superiour If you say the Scriptures enioyne vs to beleeue the church How shall I be assured that they are not in those places that seeme to enioyne such a beleefe falsly translated Because the Church saith they are true in all points What if the Church be deceiued It cannot be Who saith so The Scripture Who tels you the Scripture saith so The Church What is to be ridiculous if this be not It might seeme exceeding strange that euer any reasonable man should be ledde away with such fopperies if the holy Ghost had not foretold vs of it that God would send men strong delusions that they should beleeue lies that all they might be damned vvhich beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse These delusions poore ignorant Papists trust to and to none more then to those which are the maynest of all the authoritie of the Church and impossibilitie of the Popes erring to which whosoeuer firmely cleaueth can neuer be good Christian or faithfull subiect in any Church or state whatsoeuer A. D. §. 2. Secondly they faile in the second condition or propertie which the rule of faith should haue For the Scriptures themselues alone in what language soeuer be obscure and hard to be vnderstood at least to vnlearned men who cannot reade them and therefore the Scriptures alone cannot be vnto vnlearned men a sufficient rule to instruct them in all points of faith as is plaine For locke vp an vnlettered man and an English Bible for a time in a studie and hee will come forth I warrant you as ignorant in matters of faith as he went in if wee adde no other meanes to instruct him but the bare written word which hee cannot reade And yet vnlearned men may be saued and saued they cannot be without an entire and vnfallible faith and this they cannot haue vnlesse there be some certaine rule and vnfallible meanes prouided by Almightie God meet for their capacitie to teach them this faith and Scripture alone as is now proued is not a rule meete for the capacitie of vnlearned men or apt to instruct them sufficiently in all points of faith But what speake I onely of vnlearned men sith also learned men cannot by onely reading the Scriptures be vnfallibly sure that they doe rightly vnderstand them For while they vnderstand one way perhaps they ought to vnderstand another way that which they vnderstand plainly and literally ought perhaps to be vnderstood figuratiuely and mystically and contrarie that which they vnderstand figuratiuely ought perhaps to be vnderstood properly And seeing that it is most certaine that all doe not expound right sith the exposition of one is contrarie to the exposition of another as right is neuer contrarie to right how should one be vnfallibly sure that hee onely expoundeth right hauing nothing to assure him but the seeming of his owne sense and reason which is as vncertaine and fallible as the iudgements and perswasions of other men who seeme to themselues to haue attained as wel as he the right interpretation or sense Moreouer there be many things required to the perfect vnderstanding of Scripture which are found but in very few and those also in whom those gifts are are not vnfallibly sure that they are so guided by those gifts but that both they and others may prudently doubt lest sometimes in their priuate expositions as men they erre And consequently their priuate
ei credidissem discendum What a madnesse is this in thee to say beleeue them to wit the Catholickes that we must beleeue Christ and the Scriptures to be his word yet learne of vs what Christ said that is to say what is the meaning of his word I should saith S. Austin much more easily perswade my self that I ought not to beleeue Christ at all then that I must learne any thing concerning him of any except of those of whom I haue already learned to beleeue in him A. W. I denie your principall Assumption wherein you denie the sufficiencie of the Scripture for the determining of all matters of faith For if the Scripture were not sufficient to this purpose it might be lawfull for men to adde to the word of God that which is wanting but that God hath precisely forbiddē all mē Ye shall put nothing to the word which I command you neither shall you take any thing from it out of which Cardinall Caietane saith we may gather that the law of God is perfect But of this place I haue said more other where and our Diuines are large and plentifull in this argument The Apostle Paul affirmeth of him selfe that he preached nothing but that which had bin spoken by Moses and the Prophets yea our Sauiour euery where auoucheth his doctrine by the writings of the old Testament Indeed of whom should we know the will of God but of God himselfe who doubtlesse hath not deliuered it so sparingly in so many seuerall bookes but that it containeth whatsoeuer is needfull to saluation All things indeed that our Lord did are not written but those saith Cyril that the writers thought to be sufficient for manners and doctrine I could ouerwhelme you with testimonies of the Fathers in this matter A few shall serue The Canonicall Scripture saith Austin is the rule of all The letters of Bb. are reprehended by some other of grauer authoritie Generall Councels correct prouinciall and the former are amended by the latter Let the Scripture be iudge saith another and let those doctrines be held for true that agree with it For the law of God or Scripture as Chrysostom saith is a most exact ballance square and rule Therefore let vs passe by that which he or he thinkes and let vs enquire all things of the Scriptures The holy Scriptures inspired by God are sufficient to shew the truth And therfore as Hilary saith wisely and religiously It were well we would content our selues with those things that are written If we will not this is Basils censure of vs that we are without faith and proud It is a manifest argument of infidelitie saith Basil and a certaine signe of pride if any man reiect ought that is written or attempt to bring in any thing that is not written Therefore Damascen saith that the Church receiueth acknowledgeth and reuerenceth all things that are deliuered by the law the Prophets the Apostles and Euangelists and further seeketh not for any thing I pray you shew me some reason if you can why the Lord that doth not omit necessary matters repeateth those that are lesse needful to be known should fil so many bookes of Scripture with the same histories and points of doctrine oftentimes rehearsed and quite leaue out many things of farre greater importance then some of those are which he hath caused to be written Without the knowledge of many things recorded in the Scriptures a man may be saued but you denie saluation to all men that beleeue not whatsoeuer you teach them and there is no end of your deuices though it haue no warrant in any part of Scripture Is it not better then to rest only vpon that which both you and we acknowledge to be the word of God then to giue an infinite libertie to men of deuising what they wil to lay a grieuous burthē vpon our selues to beleeue vnder pain of damnation whatsoeuer they wil father vpō I know not what impossibilitie of erring Let him that hath eyes see though the blind delight in blindnesse The weaknesse of your principall Assumption concerning the insufficiencie of the Scriptures you striue to fortifie with this slender reason If there be diuers questions moued now a dayes touching substantiall matters which are not expresly set downe nor determined by onely expresse Scripture then the Scripture is not able to resolue all such doubts But there are diuers such questions Therefore the Scripture is not able to resolue all such doubts Ere I answer directly to your syllogisme I must note two things in the propounding of it First by whom the questions you speake of are moued If by Papists it is the shame and sinne of your Church to suffer idle and needlesse questions to be moued of which there can be no determination but by a Councel to be held no man knoweth how many yeares hence euer or neuer If you say these questions are set on foote by vs all the world may discerne your vntruth For we are certainly perswaded that it is not lawfull to accept any doctrine as a point of faith which cannot be proued by the Scriptures But you will say We thinke they are determinable by Scripture though indeed they be not At the least then answer the proofes we bring out of Scripture and on our part the controuersie is ended You wil reply that we will not be answered but interprete Scripture as we list Who sees not that this is a meere slander since we stand not vpon any priuate reuelations but on those rules of interpretation which the fathers according to the light of true reason haue left vs as it were by legacy But this reply is also otherwise insufficient For whereas you yeeld as appeares by this reason that some things may be determined by Scripture this obiection denies that any point of doctrine whatsoeuer can be resolued of by it because if that you say be true we wil in all cases interprete Scripture as we please Secondly I obserue another point in respect of the time If the questions you meane be such as were neuer moued till now and the Scripture neuer failed in any former doubts which seems to be implied in that speech Now a dayes me thinkes there is no shew of reason to imagine that so many and so capitall heresies for the space of 1500 years should be refuted and ouerthrowne by Scriptures and now at the last matters of lesse importance and yet as you say very substantiall should haue no meanes of satisfaction by the like course Doubtlesse if the Scripture hath hitherto bene sufficient it is no small wrong to suspect and accuse it now of insufficiencie especially in very substantiall matters necessary to be beleeued Now concerning your syllogisme I denie the consequence of your propositiō What is the Scripture so poore and weake that it can determine nothing which is not expresly set downe
therein What art what writing of any man is so bare Are the Scriptures onely that come immediatly from the author of true reason to be barred of that priuiledge which all other writings iustly challenge Is not a necessary consequence according to the rules of logicke and reason to be allowed of in Diuinitie as well as in the Mathematicks where consectaries are as certainly true as the theoremes out of which they are drawne Is it not as certaine by Scripture that there are three persons distinct each from other and all three but one God as if these verie words had bin expresly set downe But we must beare with you in this matter who learned this shift of your great Cardinal Bellarmine We say quoth Bellarmine where he deliuereth the opinion of your Church that the whole doctrine of faith and manners is not expresly contained in the Scriptures Expresly contained To be expressed and to be contained are at the least diuers if not contrary But I pray you who saith otherwise Not the Protestants doubtlesse whose opinion he propoundeth presently after this sort They preach saith Bellarmine speaking of vs that all things necessary to faith and manners are contained in the Scriptures What is become now of expresly For pure shame he was glad to leaue out that word though he had craftily stolen it in before Well this may serue to make good my deniall of your proposition A thing may be determinable by Scripture though the determination be not expresly set downe therein Take not aduantage of my words because I say determinable and you determined For the question is not what is determined that is set downe in plaine words but it is sufficient if the Scripture affoord vs the determination of matters by certain consequēce vpon truth therein deliuered Therefore whereas you adde by onely expresse Scripture onely and expresse are but meere shifts nothing at all against that we affirme who require besides onely expresse words of Scripture the ministery and industry of man to gather and conclude points of doctrine out of that which is written in the Scripture Your assumption is true that there are diuers questions not determinable by expresse Scripture and yet as I haue shewed the Scripture is sufficient for the determining of all points of faith necessary to saluation Concerning the particular question you bring for the proofe of your assumption First you seeme to grant and that grant is as much as we require that it may be gathered out of the Scripture by consequence that those books which we and you acknowledge to be the word of God are so indeed otherwise why say you that we shall not find it expresly set downe in a part of Scripture Secondly I demaund as before who moueth this question Not the Protestants who account it a kind of blasphemie to denie it and of infidelitie to doubt of it Your holy Church of Rome is she that hath buzzed this matter into Christian mens eares so that religion is thereby become a scorne to Atheists while you make no conscience of discrediting the word of God so you may by any meanes increase the reputation of your Apostaticall sea The truth is that this opinion is not a matter now a dayes first set abroach for Atheists such as Iulian haue from time to time obiected it therefore might you haue spared to mention it as a question now a dayes moued But it is new and strange yea almost incredible that Christians and those Diuines yea such as thinke religion resteth on their shoulders as the Poets faine heauen doth vpon Atlas should make a question whether the Scriptures be the word of God or no and so giue men occasion to doubt thereof Thirdly if this matter cannot be resolued of by the Scripture we shall be little the nearer for the infallible authoritie you haue deuised Christians need it not who are already perswaded that the bookes of the old and new Testament are the vndoubted word of God and with Christians onely to speake truly and properly hath the Church to do ordinarily But it falleth out sometimes that amongst those which make profession of Christianitie there are some found who are in doubt of this point If this doubt arise in the heart of a man that maketh conscience of religion he is to be taught that it is but a tentation of Satan and therefore not to be hearkened to Further we must demaund the reasons of his doubting shewing him how absurd and vnreasonable a matter it is to make question of that which generally both Protestants and Papists hold and which hath bene held by the space of 1500. yeares vnlesse he be able to giue very sufficient cause why he may doubt His arguments if he bring any must be answered and the Scriptures auowed by the matter and manner of writing which is such as will certainly if not conuert yet conuince any man in the world that man is not the deuiser of those bookes If he be an Atheist that derideth religion and withall so vnreasonable that the former and many other important proofes will not perswade him what remaines but that the magistrate whom God hath appointed to see true religion established cut off so corrupt a member by lawfull authoritie Where this course is not taken what meanes haue you to helpe the matter Will you tell him of an infallible authoritie in the Church He will laugh at your folly who instead of prouing beg the question I doe not beleeue saith he there is any such Church or authoritie If I doubt of the Scripture you proue it by the Church if I beleeue there is not any such Church or authoritie in the Church you will perswade me by Scripture To say the truth who can be so patient or foolish rather as to suffer himselfe to be led vp downe in a ring as it were a doore turning vpon hinges still in the same place The authoritie of the Church is an argument of such waight as that he is not to be counted either a Christiā or a man of reason that is not much moued therewithall yea so much as that he will not dissent from the continuall iudgement of it vnlesse he be driuen to it by certaine reason but yet this authoritie is not infallible Christ euermore iudgeth truly saith Austin but the Ecclesiasticall iudges as being men are very often deceiued And therefore he saith in another place that he is not bound to giue his consent without libertie to refuse to any thing but the Canonicall Scriptures And in an Epistle to Ierome I haue learned saith he to giue this reuerence and honour onely to those bookes that are called Canonicall that I constantly beleeue that no writer of any of them hath erred But to make an end of this needlesse question where both sides are agreed let vs heare Saint Austin speake to the Manichees If you aske vs saith he how we know that these
that which a man deduceth by necessarie and certaine consequence through his wit and learning out of the Scriptures is as strong and sure a foundation of faith as that which is expressed there in plaine termes VVe may see by this it was not for nothing that Bellarmine and you by his example foyst in expressely into the question which is betwixt vs concerning the sufficiencie of the Scriptures to be the rule of faith But of this enough A. D. §. 3. This same reason I confirme yet againe more strongly For the rule of faith must be able to propose to vs vnfallibly not onely the letters and seeming sense but the true sense of Gods word and the sense intended by the holy Spirit of God the author of this word otherwise it cannot be a sufficient meanes to breed in vs an infallible Christian faith and beleefe which is onely grounded vpon the true sense intended by Almightie God the prime or first veritie the speaker of this word But no man nor no companie of men can by their natural wit and learning tel vnfallibly what especially in all points of faith is the true intended sense of Gods word For as S. Paul saith Quis cognouit sensum Domini Who hath knowne to wit by nature art or learning the sense of our Lord Quae Dei sunt saith the same S. Paul nemo cognouit nisi spiritus Dei those things which are of God no man hath knowne but the spirit of God And therefore that knowledge which himselfe had of diuine matters came not from any naturall wit of man but as he plainly affirmeth from the spirit of God Nobis reuelauit Deus per Spiritum suum God hath reuealed vnto vs saith he by his Spirit Therefore we may well conclude That no one man nor no companie of men without the assistance of Gods spirit can either by interpreting Scripture or otherwise be the rule of faith A. W. It seemeth the former reason did not fully satisfie your selfe because you make profession of a more strong confirmation thereof which lieth thus The rule of faith must be able to propose infallibly to vs the true sence of the word of God intended by the holy Ghost But no naturall wit or learning is able to propose infallibly that sence Therefore no naturall wit or learning can be the rule of faith I haue made bold to alter your proposition or maior a little as I perswade my selfe not without reason You make a kind of difference betwixt the true sense of Gods word and the sense intended by the holy Ghost These two in my poore opinion are all one for there is no sense of any peece of Scripture to be accoūted true but that vvhich deliuereth the holy Ghosts meaning in that place The reason is for that the vse of interpretatiō is nothing else but to make vs vnderstand what the Lord meant to teach vs or to say to vs by those words I deny not that a man may deliuer true and sound diuinitie though he misconceiue misinterprete a text of Scriptures but this is that I say that howsoeuer he teach true doctrine by his exposition yet he doth not giue vs the true sense of that word of God if he propound nor the sense which was there intended by the holy Ghost euerie truth of God is not the true sense of euery place of Scripture I will not except against your Syllogisme though you put somewhat more into the Assumption then you propounded in the maior yet let me put you in mind that both naturall wit and learning can shew the true sense of Gods word in very many places and also that by your confession this may be done Whence it will follow that in all likelihood of reason many points of faith are so deliuered in Scripture that there needeth no infallible authoritie of the Church to teach vs what is true in those points what false To answer more directly to the Assumption I see no sufficient reason why a man by wit and learning may not be able to vnderstand and that infallibly what is true according to the letter of the Scripture in matters necessary to saluation I think I may truly say that many a man attaineth to this knowledge without any infallible assistance of the holy Ghost whose principall office it is so to sanctifie direct and preserue the children of God that they neuer fall away by any such opinion as shal make them lose their interest they haue to the kingdome of heauen Your proofe if it be sufficient sheweth your exception especially in all points to haue bin altogether needlesse For if the Apostle in the place alledged speake of vnderstanding the true sense of the Scripture no one place can be vnderstood by any natural wit or learning Who hath knowne the sense of our Lord Is not this speech generall as well of one place as of another But it is euident that the Apostle speaketh not of vnderstanding any or all places of Scripture For the spirituall man he speaketh of attaineth not to that height of knowledge no not in your owne iudgement vnlesse perhaps no man be spirituall but your Pope And yet a man may well doubt whether he be able to vnderstand the meaning of the holy Ghost in euery place or no though it be granted he cannot erre iudicially But Saint Paul thinketh not in that place of interpreting scripture Of what then Surely of acknowledging or assenting to the truth of the Gospell concerning saluation by Iesus Christ The things that God hath prepared for them that loue him viz. the meanes of saluation and glory by Christ are such as eye hath not seen nor eare heard yea such as neuer entred into any mans heart For who was able to haue deuised by any experience and obseruation to which the eye and eare are especiall helpes or by any discourse of reason wherein the heart is exercised that the Sonne of God should take our nature and procure forgiuenesse of sinnes and inheritance of heauen for all them that would beleeue in him This was onely Gods will and counsell which no man was priuie to no man could instruct him in or perswade him to These things God only knew these he reuealed by his spirit to the Patriarks Prophets and Apostles who without such reuelation could neuer haue suspected any such matter Now the question is not in the Apostles course of writing whether a man without reuelation can vnderstand the meaning of the Scripture but whether he could of himselfe know that there must be such a means of saluation or acknowledge the doctrine thereof to be true without the teaching of the holy Ghost The naturall man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 receiueth not these things for true or if you will perceiueth not that there are such meanes of his saluation As for vnderstanding of Scripture since it is more then manifest that a meere natural man may find the true sense
with them to the very end of their liues for their instruction and comfort neither of which are needfull any longer then while we are in this world They that apply these promises to all the elect also for to any visible companie of men I thinke besides you Papists no man doth neither make for your opinion because they tie them not to any companie but giue euery true Christian his like part in the priuiledge of this spirit and as we heard ere while out of your ordinary Glosse leaue some truth to be reuealed in the life to come I do not thinke saith Austin that in this life the promise of being taught all truth can be fulfilled in any mans mind For who liuing in this bodie which is corrupted and presseth downe the soule can know all truth when the Apostle saith We know in part By which it is also apparent that according to Austins iudgement for euer may be vnderstood of continuing after this life Secondly if these places proue that the Church is a sure foundation or rule of faith it must follow that euery particular teacher is so For eueryone of them to whom our Sauior made these promises was seuerally according thereunto taught all truth and not all ioyntly as if they might haue erred being seuered which you confesse of your Church and therefore this teaching appertaineth not to it Of the seuerall places I say further that in the first of them there is no mention of teaching all truth but onely of sending the spirit of truth That is saith Theophylact the spirit not of the old Testament for that was a figure and a shadow but of the new which is the truth The spirit of truth saith Lyra because he is essentially the truth and teacheth the truth He calleth him the spirit of truth saith Iansenius because he is the author of all truth and the only giuer of pure and sound truth For he onely teacheth the truth without mixture of any falshood or error Also he only teacheth the truth wherein the saluation of man consisteth In the second place you haue followed the vulgar Latine against the truth of the Greeke and sense of the text The Greek is All that I haue told you not as you translare it All that I shall say vnto you It is the praeter tense saith your B. Iansenius not the future in the Greeke So do Pagnin Vatablus and Montanus translate it The holy Ghost saith Theophylact shall make you vnderstand those things that are obscure and hard For those things that seeme hard vnto you I told you when I remained with you Your interlined Glosse referreth teaching to the vnderstanding and putting in mind to the will He shall teach you saith the Glosse that you may know and suggest that you may will Tell me then why I may not gather from hence that the Church shal not erre in manners or at least shall haue true faith in heart not onely in profession But it is certain that it is possible the greater part of a Councell yea and the Pope himselfe may be without true faith and it is enough to make a man a member of your church that he professe outwardly By all truth our Sauiour meaneth all truth necessary to saluation saith Iansenius So your Glosse Theophylact referreth it to the truth of those things which were shadowed out in the law and by the discouerie of the truth to be abolished Hugo restraineth it to all truth concerning Christ himselfe But let vs take all truth as largely as you can reasonably conceiue it Wil it follow therupō trow you that therefore the teaching of the Church is the rule of faith May not the Church be taught all truth by the holy Ghost and yet teach some deuice of her owne which she neuer learned of him It is one thing to teach a man all truth and another to keepe him so that he shal deliuer nothing but that truth Your Minor therefore is false because this first part of it is so A. D. §. 5. The charge and commission is plaine in S. Mathew Euntes docete omnes gentes Going teach all nations And in S. Marke Euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate Euangelium omni creaturae Going into the whole world preach the Gospell to euery creature A. W. The charge which our Sauior gaue for preaching the Gospell to all nations was no commaundement to his Church that is to the companie of the beleeuers or to the Cleargie as you speake in all ages but a commission to the Apostles and first Disciples for the performance of that dutie The reason why it is deliuered so at large may be gathered out of Mathew 10. ch where at their first sending they were limited to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel and barred from going to the Gentiles Go not saith our Sauiour into the way of the Gentiles and into the cities of the Samaritans enter not but go rather to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel And that this charge belongeth not to men now a dayes it is euident because neither doth our Sauiour bestow the gift of tongues to that purpose as he did on those whom he sent to that worke neither can we haue any calling to such a purpose hauing no gifts for it yet do not we denie but that it is lawfull for Princes who haue by conquest or otherwise the gouernment of strange nations to see that they be instructed in the faith yea we thinke this lieth vpon them as a necessary dutie Neither do we barre any man of taking whatsoeuer oportunitie God shall giue to preach the Gospell to any people A captiue maide was by the blessing of God made the meanes of conuerting the Iberians from heathenisme to Christianitie the King of that people as the historie saith becoming the Apostle of his nation Frumentius and Aedesius being caried into India when they were yong were afterward employed by God for the instructing of the Indians in true religion But your minor is not proued by that commission Christ commanded his Apostles and Disciples in the beginning of the Church to preach to all nations therefore the Church hath commission to do the like now Besides this charge was layd vpon euery one of the Apostles and all the disciples so furnished with the gift of tongues according as the Apostles thought it meete to employ them Doth this commandement bind your church that is either your Pope who wil not preach at home much lesse will he go abroade to all quarters of the world or your Councels who seuerall are not the church And this charge lay vpon them to whom it was giuen seuerally and was not a matter to be performed by all together in one place Therefore your minor is false also in the second part of it concerning the charge which you say is giuen to
the iudgement of the learned who teach that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie to saluation Now for answer to your proofes I say as before that the two former concerne especially the denying either of religion in generall or some speciall truth in question when the Lord as it were calleth vs out to professe and auouch it as he did the Apostles in that place by sending them abroad to preach the Gospell If you saith our Sauiour in effect or any other minister shall forbeare to discharge your duties by preaching my truth and maintaining it if you be called in question for it I will neuer acknowledge you for mine in the kingdome of heauen The Apostles calling necessarily required preaching of the word and for them to haue failed in that dutie for feare or shame or otherwise had bene to denie their Lord and master Yet were they not so tied to this dutie that they must needs continue their publicke preaching in those places where persecution was raised against them but they might flee from one Citie to another and yet not be counted to denie the Lord Iesus As for the Churches that were gathered by the Apostles preaching there is neither charge nor reason to be shewed why they should bewray themselues to their persecutors by open practise of religion in the eies of the world Indeed the worship of God is not to be neglected though we cannot performe it without manifest daunger of our liues but there is no necessitie to worship God publickly where the truth is persecuted Therefore did the anciēt Christiās in such places assemble as secretly as they could neither leauing the exercises of religion for feare nor by an incōsiderate zeal hazarding their own liues To denie Christ is not to conceale himselfe frō persecutors but being found by them to renounce his profession and so is the place ordinarily applied by Cyprian the Clergie of Rome and Tertullian men enough fauouring martyrdome Yea Tertullian in that verie booke wherein he labours to prooue that it is not lawfull for a man to flie in time of persecution yet aduiseth men to hold their assemblies for the exercises of religion in the night time if they cannot haue them conueniently in the day Theophylact expoundeth this confession and deniall of acknowledging or denying Christ to be God Brugensis somewhat more particularly He that denieth me to be his Lord and Sauiour that he beleeueth in me that he sticketh fast to me and my doctrine So doth Iansenius vnderstandit though he stretch it also to the denying of Christ by wicked conuersation The denying of Christs name saith Lyra is alwaies a mortall sinne Not to confesse or be silent concerning it is sometimes a mortall sinne As if a man be silent when he is asked of it If he professe it being not asked it is a worke of supererogation Doth any of these or any man else conclude the visibilitie of the Church from these or the like places of Scripture No man is to denie our Sauiour nor to be ashamed of his truth What then Therefore must they that beleeue in Christ openly make profession thereof at all times without any wisedome of the Serpent for their owne preseruation or else can they not be saued A cruell and foolish conceit This proofe is to as little purpose as the former Confession by mouth is required to saluation therefore outward profession of faith is at all times necessarie Who sees not the weaknesse of this cōsequence Doth not he confesse with mouth that ioynes himselfe to some knowen Church of Christ and communicates with them ordinarily in the outward worship of God though all the world know not there are any such beleeuers professors yea though the people among whom they liue be not priuie to their meetings and profession There may be occasion for a man or a Church to manifest themselues vnto the world and they that in such a time shall faile can looke for no mercie at the hands of God without true and earnest repentance But this prooues not that therefore the Churches must make such publicke profession that they may at all times be knowen to all men To perswade vs of the former wherein there is no doubt you tell vs that Learned men autors in the aire as one of your side saith in the like case interprete this place to signifie that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie Who euer denied it But doth any learned man say that therefore the Church must alwaies make such profession That is the point in question and of that you are as dumbe as a fish yea do you not perceiue that your learned men refute that conceit Doth not he that expoundeth that place of necessitie at sometimes denie that it requireth such necessitie at all times It is necessarie saith Frier Soto for a righteous man that he may obtaine euerlasting life to confesse his faith with his mouth wheresoeuer the time necessarily required by this precept offers it selfe Catharin your Bishop speaketh yet more plaine Such confession namely that a man confesse with his mouth that which he beleeueth in his heart as he expounded himselfe a little before is not alwaies required but as Thomas saith according to the time and place And indeed so Thomas saith adding withall that Affirmatiue commaundements binde at all times but require not performance at all times Your interlinear and ordinarie Glosses and Lombard restraine it to the time of persecution or at least when the truth is called in question Caietan makes this when more generall but signifieth that this confession is not at all times necessarie As for the times when it is to be held for necessarie your learned men do somewhat more particularly deliuer the point then you report it Confession of Gods truth quoth Sotus and therein he followth Thomas is necessarie vpon paine of losing saluation either when it is required by a persecutor of the faith which confession the martyrs made with their bloud or when it is necessarie for those that belong to our charge by danger of heresie likely to ensue which dutie of confession properly concerneth Prelates c. These occasions haue many times bene offered and accordingly many professors of that truth which wee now maintaine haue with the shedding of their bloud giuen testimonie of the Gospell against the errours and tyrannie of your Antichristian Prelates Those holy martyrs who from time to time haue bene butchered by your Synagogue of Sathan were of the same Church with vs howsoeuer they saw not the truth of God in many points so clearely as it hath pleased him to reueale it to vs by the ministerie of his seruants in these latter dayes If they vsed their best discretion and endeuours to hide themselues as much as might be from your furie they did no more then the light of nature and
gesse by the words that you meant to refute all marks that euer were set downe by any Heretickes But if we should take your meaning in that sense your discourse would not answer our expectation Besides if all markes assigned by heretickes be naught yours cannot possibly be good which are brought by the grand hereticks of the world the vowed vassals of the great Antichrist the Pope of Rome A. D. §. 1. Out of that which in the former chapter I briefely noted about the nature of a good marke we may easily gather that those markes which some heretickes assigne to wit the true doctrine of faith and the right vse of the Sacraments are no good markes by which all sorts of men may come to know which is the true Church but are meanes as Heretickes vse them to cast a mist ouer the whole matter when as they know that they can most easily conuert all the Sacraments and holy words of Scripture Ad imagines phantasmatum suorum vnto their owne imaginations and phantasticall opinions as out of Saint Austin we may gather that the manner of heretickes is especially when the authoritie of the Church which should correct those deprauations and false expositions is not first by other markes knowen and admitted A. W. You would seeme to haue an especiall gift of making things easie by your markes the Church may easily be discerned out of the former Chapter we may easily gather But I thinke it wil prooue to be so easily gathered that a weake man may easily make you lose your labour in gathering That place of Austin doth so fit you Papists as if he had spoken it of you by name For to go no farther then the matter in hand who euer wrested the Scriptures more to their phantasies then you Papists who are not ashamed nor afraid to apply the most gracious and comfortable promises of our Sauiour Christ to his mystical bodie the Church to an heape of prophane misbeleeuers so they make outward profession of the Gospel in obedience to the Pope of Rome It is enough by your doctrine to make a man a true member of the mysticall bodie of the Sonne of God if he professe as I before said though he haue no part of the life of Iesus Christ in him A. D. §. 2. The doctrine of faith therefore I say and the right vse of Sacraments be not good markes whereby men may discerne which is the true Church This I prooue First for that by the true doctrine of faith which they assigne for a marke of the Church either they meane true doctrine in some points onely or in all True doctrine in some points onely is no good marke because the heretickes teach the truth in some points This therefore being not proper to the Church but agreeing rather to heretickes can be no good marke of the true Church because it wanteth the first condition of a marke which is to be proper and agreeing onely to the thing whereof it is a marke True doctrine also in all points although it be proper if we ioyne to it the right vse of Sacraments with obedience to lawfull Pastors and agree onely to the true Church yet it is no good marke because it faileth in the second condition which is requred in a good marke that is to say it is not apparent or easie to be knowen of all those who should seeke out the true Church As I may easily prooue because to know which companie teacheth the truth in all points requireth first learning whereby one may vnderstand the tearmes and state of the question or controuersie besides iudgement to discusse and weigh prudently the worth and sufficiencie of the authorities and reasons of both parts that vpon this pondering of reasons he may prudently conclude which is the better part Moreouer one had need to haue a supernaturall light of Gods grace and assistance of his spirit whereby he may discerne and see those things which be aboue all naturall rules and reasons Ad haec quis idoneus Who can say that himselfe is sufficiently furnished with these helpes Who can be infallibly sure that he hath all these in such sort as is requisite for obtaining by his owne industrie true and infallible faith in all points Surely at least the vnlearned must needs confesse that in diuers mysteries they do not so much as vnderstand the tearmes state of the question much lesse are they able to examine sufficiētly the worth of euery reason neither are all such as can perswade themselues that they are singularly inlightened and immediately taught of Gods spirit neither if they did thus perswade themselues could they be vnfallibly sure that in this their perswasion they were not deceiued sith it is certaine that some of them that most strongly perswade themselues to be thus taught are in this their perswasion deceiued neither can the vnlearned sufficiently know the truth in euerie particular point by giuing credit to some one or other learned man or any companie of the learned vnlesse that company be first knowen to be of the Church and consequently to be guided in their teaching by the holy Ghost as I prooued before So that it is most hard or rather vnpossible for a man and especially for an vnlearned man in all points Liquidam à tot erroribus discernere veritatem to discerne the plaine truth from so many errours as S. Austin saith It is also most hard for a man of himselfe to iudge which vse of Sacraments is right if he be not first taught by the Church sub this is a principall point of the true doctrine of faith which is as I said verie hard or rather vnpossible to be perfectly knowen by a mans owne selfe But to know first which companie is the true Church and then by giuing credit to it to learne which is the true faith and which vse of Sacraments is right there are not so many things required nor any great difficultie as shall be declared For the Church is that direct way which Isaias speaketh of when he saith Haec erit vobis directa via ita vt stulti non errent per eam This shall be to you a direct way so that euen fooles to wit simple and vnlearned men may not erre in it A. W. These are the two onely marks whereby the true Church may be knowen or to speake more plainely whereby we may iudge of any companie of men professing Christian Religion whether they be a true Church of Christ or no. For the better vnderstanding whereof we must know that howsoeuer we ioyne the Sacraments with the word in this matter yet we do not thinke them to be absolutely of equall necessitie with it to the being of a true Church The true preaching of the word is so simply necessarie that whersoeuer it is it maketh the Church in which it is a true Church of Christ and whersoeuer it is not there is no true visible Church We denie not
that in time of persecution many true Christians may be without opportunitie of meeting together for the true worship of God in hearing his word and calling vpon his name which alwaies accompanieth true preaching and yet still continue true members of Christs mysticall bodie the Church But we say that these men cannot be truly called such a visible Church of Christ as we now seeke for Yet if these men shall ordinarily assemble themselues together to offer vp praier to God and by mutuall conference to edifie each other in knowledge and obedience thogh they haue no certaine minister appointed for the performance of these duties there can no reason be alledgd why they should not be held for a true Church though not perfect complete or why men should not ioine with them hauing no means to become members of any complete congregation properly being a Church The word then in our opinion is simply necessarie and of it selfe sufficient as Luther truly saith where no other signe of a Church can be discerned to conuince a mans conscience that there is a true Church where he findeth the word truly preached Now the administration of the Sacraments is not so necessarie but that there may be a true Church without it vpon occasion as the Iewes had no circumcision amongst them all the fortie yeares when they trauelled through the wildernesse The reason of this difference is assigned to be this that the word is as it were the cause efficient of the Church so that without it there can be no Church but the Sacraments are only seals of Gods mercies and helps for the increasing of those graces which are receiued by the ministerie of the word Now these seales and helpes are not requisite simply to the being of that they seale helpe vs in but onely to the better being and increase of them But if I may be bold with reuerence of other mens iudgement to speake my poore opinion I think this reason sheweth the different necessitie of the word and the Sacraments rather to the making of particular men true Christians thē to the giuing of this or that companie the true being of a visible Church And therefore vnder correction I would rather say that the truth of doctrine deliuered in the ministery of the word and praier are absolutely necessary the administration of the Sacraments not so altogether because the former are such parts of Gods seruice as may and must alwaies be performed when the Church is assembled but the Sacraments neither can alwaies nor need at all such meetings to be administred Which we speake not as if the true vse of the Sacraments were not a necessarie part of Gods seruice to be done vpon all opportunities with reuerence and willingnesse but for that as before I noted there cannot be at all times such opportunitie Yea it may fall out that in some true Church of Christ there shall be no occasion to administer the Sacrament of Baptisme in many yeares This then is that which we hold concerning the markes of a true Church First that wheresoeuer we see the word of God truly taught and the Sacraments truly administred there we may be sure there is a true Church of Christ Secondly that wheresoeuer the former of these is wanting there is no true Church whatsoeuer shew or marke otherwise there be Thirdly that wheresoeuer the word of God is truly preached and accordingly professed there is a true Church though the Sacraments vpon occasion as is aforesaid be not there administred so that they be not neglected vpon any contempt or erroneous conceit of their not being necessarie To disprooue our doctrine concerning the markes of the or rather of a Church you bring this reason If true doctrine be a marke of a true Church then either true doctrine in some pointes or true doctrine in all But neither true doctrine in some points nor true doctrine in all is a marke Therefore true Doctrine is not at all a marke of a true Church I denie you Minor True doctrine in all points is so certaine a marke of a true Church that wheresoeuer we finde that we may be sure there is a true Church But because we enquire after such a marke as may not onely assure vs which is a true Church but also teach vs to know euerie true Church I answer more particularly that true doctrine in some pointes viz. such as are fundamentall is so necessarie a marke as that there is no where any true Church but where there is such true doctrine and that there is vndoubtedly a true Church wheresoeuer that truth is taught and held Your Minor you prooue thus first that true doctrine in some points is no good marke That which is not proper to the true Church but agrees rather to heretickes is no good marke of the true Church But true doctrine in some points onely is not proper to the true Church but agreeth rather to heretickes Therefore true doctrine in some points onely is no good marke of the true Church Againe I denie your minor taking it in the best sense for if I should take it in the worst your whole syllogisme would be nothing to the purpose My answer shall I trust make both these points plaine to euery man I say then that true doctrine in all the fundamentall points of religion is proper to the Church so that no hereticks hold all such points though some haue held many of them Or if any companie do hold them all and yet for some error in other points of lesse moment be counted and be hereticall their heresie is not such as may make them cease to be members of a true Church Thus much of your assumption in the best sense By true doctrine in some points onely you may meane that it is not a propertie belonging to the true Church to beleeue truly some points onely and not all and this indeed is rather proper to heretickes then the true Church because it is the dutie of all true Churches to beleeue all things that the Lord hath taught in the holy Scriptures whereas hereticks take vp conceits of their owne which they mingle with the truth of God either ignorantly or deceitfully I haue reason to suspect this meaning because you thrust in this word onely In this sense your conclusion fighteth with a shadow For we do not make it a marke of a true Church to beleeue some points onely but say it may be and is a true Church though it erre in some points so it hold the fundamentall points soundly and truly This is the proofe of the second part of your minor that true doctrine in all points is not a good marke of the true Church and it is thus concluded Euery good marke of the true Church is apparent or easie to be knowne of all those who should seeke out the true Church But true doctrine in all points is not apparent or easie to be known of
any regard or knowledge of their being sent by the true Church This weake minor of yours is vnderpropt in each part with a pillar of the holy Scripture the former thus No sensuall man can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries Euery man without faith is a sensuall man Therefore no man without faith can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries If by obtaining the knowledge of diuine mysteries you meane assenting to the truth of God concerning saluation I grant your whole syllogisme and in this sense it was needlesse to proue that part of your minor In the other sense that a man cannot attaine to the knowledge of them but by faith which the words manifestly import I denie the maior for the reason before alledged but whatsoeuer your meaning be the Apostle saith no more but that a naturall man without the grace of God can neither once imagine any such meanes of saluation and other there is none nor acknowledge those meanes as true and sufficient Of the former the Apostle speakes in the ninth verse affirming that the means of saluation prepared by God for men are such as neither eye hath seen nor eare hath heard nor euer entred into any mans heart Of the latter is the place alledged by you where the word signifieth rather an approuing and receiuing then a perceiuing and the spirituall man whom he there opposeth to the naturall is said to discerne of spirituall things rather by acknowledging the truth of them then by vnderstanding the meaning of the word preached concerning them Your translation which I touched before where you terme hominem animalem a sensuall man is senslesse For who knowes not that by a sensuall man we meane a voluptuous man giuen vp to his pleasures and sensualitie But the Apostle speakes not of such onely but euen of the wisest and most vertuous that euer were amongst men without grace so that in his meaning as well temperate Xenocrates and learned Aristotle called for his knowledge natures darling vertuous Socrates and wise Solon as Sardanapalus Thersites Nero and such like are naturall men that is such as haue no grace of God but that shadow of it which remaineth in all men by nature and is helped by education and humane learning It is true that Animalis naturalis is not all one in nature yet doth Naturall better expresse the Apostles meaning then sensuall and generally all writers haue made an opposition in this sense betwixt Nature and Grace not betwixt Sensualnesse and Grace as you may see throughout Austins Prospers Ieromes and your owne Schoolemens writings Neither will it helpe the matter to say as you doe that Naturall wit in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses For sensuall signifieth not him that vseth his senses to the vnderstanding of this or that but him that is drowned in Sensualitie Besides naturall wit doth not vse the helpe of the outward senses alwaies in vnderstanding yea there are many and the most excellent pointes of Philosophie in which Sense hath nothing to doe as in the discourse of Reason and the knowledge of Logicke with all those hard and worthie Questions of the Soule and of God himselfe as farre as they are to be conceiued of by the light of nature If you will say that we learne these things partly by reading and hearing I aunswer both that we finde out many things in Philosophie of our selues by studie without anie helpe of Sense which rather is an hinderance to the soule in the search of such pointes and also that the knowledge we haue of diuine mysteries is first brought to vs and continually increased in vs by the same Senses of seeing and hearing else were your Church as good be without those preachers you so much brag of The other part of your Minor that faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church you prooue or rather endeauour to prooue in this sort If no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach except he be sent then Faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church But no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach without he be sent Therefore faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church I denie the consequence of your Maior and affirme that faith may be had without the teaching of the true Church though no man can beleeue without he heare c. For I haue shewed that some countries haue bene brought to beleefe without any such teaching by authoritie from the true Church I also referre the Reader to my answer to your Minor That place of the Apostle concerneth not the ordinarie ministerie of the word but the knowledge of the means of saluation which as the Apostle truly saith could neuer haue bene thought on by any man if it had not pleased God to giue notice thereof to the world by men appointed and authorised to that purpose by himselfe But of this place and matter I spake sufficiently before in this and in a former chapter A. D. §. 4. Thirdly true faith is included in the true Church and as it were enclosed in her belly as Saint Austin saith vpon those words of the Psalme Errauerunt ab vtero loquuti sunt falsa In ventre Ecclesiae saith he veritas manet quisquis ab hoc ventre separatus fuerit necesse est vt falsa loquatur Truth remaineth in the belly of the Church whosoeuer is separated to wit by difference in doctrine from this belly of the Church must needs speake false Therefore like as if a man had Gold in his belly we must first finde the man before we can come to see the gold it selfe so we must first by other markes finde out the true Church which hath the gold of true faith hidden in her belly before we come to see the gold of true faith it selfe Sith especially we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it vnto vs and that we cannot being spiritually blinde certainely know it to be true and not counterfeit but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it According as the same Saint Austin saith Euangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commouerer I should not beleeue the Gospell it selfe vnlesse I were mooued by the authoritie of the Church For if we had not the testimonie of the Church how should we haue bene infallibly sure that there were any Gospell at all Or how should we haue knowen that those bookes which â—eare title of the Gospell according to Saint Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those bookes which are written in the name of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas bearing the same title or inscription of Gospell A. W. Your third reason is thus to be framed That which is shut vp in the belly
course of yours The question is whether the true Church be with you or with vs. You tell vs we shall know that by seeing whether you or we haue the markes of the true Church we accept of this triall How shall we informe our selues what these markes are Tush say you for that matter you must be ruled by the Councels Why but the Councels as you would make vs beleeue were wholly for you and consisted of Popish Bishops what reason haue we then to stand to their iudgment in a controuersie betwixt you vs You will answer that we say they were not Popish We say so indeed and haue prooued it in diuers points as occasion hath bene offered But we adde further that these Councels might erre you denie it How will you perswade vs the contrarie When all is done we must come to triall by the Scriptures or else take your word for it And is it for all this precisenesse to require proofe out of the Scriptures of those marks you would prooue your Church by I haue shewed before that there is no means to know certainly there is any Church of Christ or any Christ but by the Scriptures Are not the Scriptures then the fittest meanes to teach vs by what marks this Church may be knowne The Councels tell vs what they are Who told them the holy Ghost Let it be so But how did he tell them by some reuelation vtterly beside the Scriptures or by truth in the Scriptures If the former we aske how we may be so perswaded The church tels you so Yet again the church How knows the church that they had such reuelatiō What help now but about again to the scriptures Thinke not much then if in this questiō cōcerning the marks of the church we desire to be taught by the Scriptures what those markes are especially since as you professe you may do it so easily but I am afraid you will do it with more ease then truth A. D. §. 3. The true Church is signified to be one by those words of the Canticles Vna est columba mea if we will beleeue the exposition of Saint Cyprian and S. Austin Also we may gather the same out of those words of our Sauiour in which he calleth his Church vnum ouile one sheepfold Also by those places of S. Paul where he termeth the Church vnum corpus one bodie Moreouer Christ our Sauiour praying for his Church did specially intreate and without doubt obtained vt omnes vnum sint that all the members thereof should be one thing to wit that at the least they should all professe one and the same faith all partake of one and the same baptisme and other sacraments all liue vnder one and the same Lord in due subordination and subiection to that vniforme and orderly gouernment of lawful pastors ordained and appointed in the Church by him The true Church of Christ therefore is one Contrary the conuenticles of hereticks are destitute of this marke of vnitie according as Tertullian affirmeth saying Denique penitus inspectae haereses omnes in multis deprehenduntur cum auctoribus suis dissentientes Finally all heresies if they be wel looked into are found to differ in many things from their first founders And the reason of this disagreement among heretickes the same Tertullian assigneth very well in the same place saying Variant inter se haeretici dum vnusquisque pro suo arbitrio modulatur quod accepit quemadmodum ea pro arbitrio composuit ille qui tradidit Heretickes do differ in points of doctrine among themselues while as euery one taketh vpon him to fashion the faith which he receiued according to his owne liking or fancie like as he that first deliuered it vnto them did inuent it according to his owne will and pleasure A. W. We are now come to the very point for proofe of your maior that they onely who are one holy Catholick Apostolick Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church is to be knowne belong To make this proofe good you dispute in this manner If One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke be good marks to know the true Church by then they onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong But those foure properties One Holy Catholick Apostolick are good markes by which the true Church may be knowne Therefore they onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong The consequence of your maior is but weake For these foure properties may be good markes to know the true church by that wheresouer we see them we may be sure there is a true church and yet there may also be some true church where they are not I dispute not whether the true Church may be without these but denie that because these where they are are good markes therefore there is no true Church where these are wanting This proposition though your proofe be lame without it you wholy omit and so propound vs a reason which we need not yeeld to though you were able to proue the minor neuer so sufficiently Your minor as before I answered is true if we rightly vnderstand the meaning of those seuerall properties But the proofe you bring is scarce warrantable All properties of the Church belonging onely thereto and apparent to be seene where they are are good markes to know the Church by But these foure properties are such Therefore these foure are good markes to know the Church by There is a third thing omitted by you necessarily required to make any propertie a good marke viz. that it be such as alwayes agrees to the Church For otherwise it can serue as I answered to your former proposition but only for the halfe dutie of a marke because at some times I may see the Church and not know it for all this marke If I find these properties I may assure my selfe that I haue found the true Church because these neuer are but in the true Church yet if the true Church may at any time be without these as it may for ought contained in your maior then missing my marke I shal be vnable to discerne of the true Church This minor for the first part of it is true in such sense as I granted the former these properties rightly vnderstood belong onely to the true Church If the latter part also be true that they are apparent to be seene doubtlesse truth of doctrine which maketh the Church one must needs be a certaine marke of the true Church though you denie it that prerogatiue Let vs now see how you proue the parts of your minor with this prouiso that though you do proue them yet you are little the nearer because diuers former propositions vpon which this depends remaine still vnproued by you It is a propertie belonging
spirit of Christ. For Christ saith he is as the soule giuing life by the holy Ghost to his whole mysticall bodie But the holy Ghost quickens onely the elect not the reprobate too In the latter of the two places the same Cardinall expounds that being one in respect of charitie and Catharin a learned Popish Bishop vnderstands this bodie to be the holy Church consisting of them that are predestinate and called and iustified and glorified holy and faithfull Of the last place I spake sufficiently before Agreement in the truth is the marke we looke at This you adde to proue that to professe one and the same faith that is to be one is proper to the true church Your proofe is that Tertulliā saith that all heresies if they be wel looked into are found to differ in many things from their first founders Tertullian might truly say so of al heresies then known yet there may haue bin some since his time perhaps that haue kept alwayes the same errors without any change worth the speaking of But as I noted before since all heresies for a time hold their first errors continuance in the same profession can be no good marke of the true church vnles you can set downe a certaine number of yeares during which they must continue in one and the same faith or else be held for hereticks because of their changing Now in conclusion of this first marke I must obserue a few points for the Readers instruction First I desire it may be noted that whereas vnitie is made a principal marke by your writers they vnderstand as well vnitie of loue as of faith you require but the one of them and so giue vs but halfe a marke Secondly let it be obserued that this marke is either no marke at all or all one with ours so that whereas you trouble vs with more then this you make it much harder then we do to find out the true Church In the third place it would be considered what you meane by one and the same faith I presse you with your owne argument Continuing in one and the same faith in regard of some points only is no good marke because heretickes continue in some points of truth Continuing in all points can be no good mark for it is not only hard but vnpossible for a simple vnlearned man to be assured that any church hath alwayes continued in profession of one and the same faith in euery point yea this is infinitely harder then to discerne of all truth because the one is to be learned out of the Scriptures the other cannot be known but by searching the records of the church from time to time Of the one there is certaine knowledge to be had because the Scriptures are the word of God of the other the best assurance we can haue is but the testimonie of men that might erre by ignorance or partialitie Whatsoeuer doubts or difficulties you can imagine concerning the false translation or misunderstanding of the Scriptures the same wil accompanie all the writings of men touching the doctrine of the Church in all ages Then let any reasonable man iudge whether you or we shew them a better marke to know the true Church by A. D. §. 4. The true Church is also proued to be holy by that of S. Paul Templum Dei sanctum est quod estis vos The temple of God is holy which temple you are By which place notwithstanding S. Paul did not meane to signifie that euery one of this companie was holy For a little after in the same Epistle he saith to the same companie Omnino auditur inter vos fornicatio talis fornicatio qualis nec inter gentes There is plainly heard fornication among you and such fornication as the like is not among the heathen He doth not therefore I say meane that euery one of the Church is holy but that the whole companie is to be termed holy because the profession thereof doth of it selfe wholy tend to holinesse the doctrine being such as withdraweth from all vice and instructeth and moueth men to vertue the Sacraments also do not onely signifie but in the vertue which they haue from Christ his passion they also worke in vs as instrumentall causes true and inward sanctitie Wherefore although euery one that is in the Church be not holy yet no doubt alwayes some are the which their holinesse it pleaseth Almightie God to testifie and make knowne sometime by miracle and ordinarily he vseth to make it apparent enough by the light of their vertuous actions which at all times in many members of the true Church do so shine before men that by it men are moued to glorifie God and sometimes to imitate in their owne life that which in others they admire And whatsoeuer member of the Church faileth from this holinesse of life it is euident that the fault is onely in himself who liueth not according to the prescript of his professiō nor vseth in due sort those means which it hath of the holy Sacraments which as I said before are effectuall instruments of sanctification Contrariwise no sect of hereticks is truly holy neither was there euer any person that did inuent or obstinatly adhere vnto any sect of heresie which had in him true sanctitie And no maruel because the very profession and doctrine it selfe of euery heresie is opposite to the very rootes of true sanctitie the which rootes be true Christian faith and humilitie For how can he be truly holy and iust who being possessed with the spirit of heresie must needs be depriued of true faith without which the iust man cannot liue according to that saying of S. Paul Iustus ex fide viuit Or how can he be holy that doth not only not humble himselfe like a little one submitting himselfe to euery humane creature for Gods sake but doth proudly oppose himselfe against the vniuersall Church it selfe whom God hath willed and commanded vs to heare no otherwise then himselfe For wanting this humilitie and consequently the grace of God which is denied to the proud and giuen to the humble there is no doubt but that howsoeuer such a man seemeth in his outward behauiour he can haue no true sanctitie within him the which true sanctitie failing inwardly it is hard for him to beare himselfe so but that sometime or other by one occasion or other he shall euen outwardly manifest this his inward want as in these our daies heretickes commonly do in such apparent manner that it is no hard matter to discerne that they be not as some of them would haue the Church defined a companie of Saints A. W. Hauing shewed before that this discourse proceedeth not orderly as it should to the proofe of that which is propounded by you and denied by vs I will not stand to lay out the fault in euery particular but content my selfe with hauing done it once for all It
thy name prophecied and by thy name cast out diuels and by thy name done many great workes And then will I professe to them I neuer knew you depart from me ye that worke iniquitie But it is strange that you should make true inward sanctitie the marke of the true Church and so confidently affirme that no doubt in the Church there are alwaies some holy when as you maintaine that it is enough to make a man a true member of the true Church that he professe outwardly though he haue no one vertue within him at all If all the members of the Church may be void of holinesse how is holinesse a good marke of the Church Certainly it is at the most but accidentall and such as the Church may haue or lacke without being or ceasing to be a Church thereby He is well holpe vp no doubt that must learne how to know the true Church of such teachers You haue prooued after your fashion that the Church is holy now you will prooue that no companie but the Church is holy No sect of heretickes is truly holy All companies of Christians besides that of the true Church are sects of hereticks Therefore no companie of Christians besides that of the true Church is truly holy If by hereticks you vnderstand onely those that erre in some fundamentall points of religion I grant your Maior and Minor As for the conclusion I am resolued of the truth thereof without any proofe from you But if you acount all hereticks who in the error of their iudgement dissent from other Churches of Christ in matters not fundamentall though true I denie your said Maior and affirme that diuers Churches may differ in opinion one from another and continue in that difference maintaine it confidently so they do it not against their knowledge and conscience and yet all of them be true Churches of Christ and truly holy For as long as the opinions a man holds do not cut him off from being a true member of the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ they make him not cease to be a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified But he that beleeueth truly in Iesus Christ and holds no fundamentall error continues by faith a member of our Sauiours mysticall bodie For as the iust liues by faith so wheresoeuer there is true faith there is life also but there is no life out of the bodie of Christ because the spirit of Christ is not to be had but in his bodie And therefore he that by faith remaineth a member of Christs bodie is a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified though not perfectly holy Here we haue the proofe of your Maior such as it is If the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie be opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the rootes of true sanctitie then no sect of heresies is truly holy But the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie is opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the roots of true sanctitie Therefore no sect of hereticks is truly holy If by true Christian faith you meane any particular truth as a Christian ought to beleeue euerie truth of God though not so as that ignorance or misbeleeuing of euerie point can make him cease to be a true Christian I denie the consequence of your Maior I denie your Minor Not euerie heresie but that which is against the foundation onely is opposite to true Christian faith humility vnderstanding by Christian faith such a faith as is necessarily required that a man may be a true Christian by which onely he liues not by beleeuing euerie truth though that be required of him as a dutie of sanctification And so your proofe also is answered A man may haue that faith by which a Christian must liue though he be ignorant or misinstructed in diuers points of doctrine I haue seuered this part concerning humilitie from the former because it seemeth you tooke it to be of more importance and therefore labour more in the proofe of it He that doth not humble himselfe to euerie humane creature for Gods sake but proudly opposeth himselfe against the vniuersall Church cannot be holy But no hereticke doth so humble himselfe and euerie hereticke so oppose Therefore no hereticke can be holy I shewed before that there is no such vniuersall Church as you often name but neuer prooue and therefore this argument grounded vpon opposing against that which is not in regard of such a commaundement as God neuer gaue is idle and vaine More particularly I answer concerning your Maior that although pride be alwaies a sinne yet it may sometimes be found in in a man truly sanctified that in opposition against men in a matter of doctrine But your proposition in regard of the former part of it as you vnderstand it is vtterly false For it is no way against holinesse for a man not to beleeue euery doctrine that men will propound If I or an Angell from Heauen preach any otherwise to you then we haue preached let him be accursed Trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. As for that place of the Apostle which you alledge your owne interpreters expound it not of the Church but of the ciuill Magistrate He cals the office of a King a humane creature saith Caietan because a King is created by the voices or consent of men and he addeth euery that he might take away all distinction betwixt Heathen and Christian kings in respect of obedience to them The Rhemists are yet more against you So he calleth the temporall magistrate say they elected by the people or holding their soueraigntie by birth and carnall propagation ordained for the Worldly wealth power and prosperitie of the subiect to put a difference directly against your interpretation betwixt the humane superioritie and the spirituall Rulers and regiment guiding and gouerning the people to a higher end But what need we any other expositor since the Apostle in the next words directeth vs how to vnderstand it Whether it be vnto the King as vnto the superiour or vnto gouernours as vnto them that are sent of him for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well But let vs take it as generally as you will if it be against humilitie not to be subiect to the Church it is also against it not to be subiect to the King Yet I hope no man is so mad as to say that he refuseth to be subiect to him that doth not absolutely obey him in all things How then can this place proue that it is against true Christian humilitie not to beleeue the Church whatsoeuer she propound to be beleeued None but hereticks do so humble themselues and many dissenting from their brethren in diuers opinions neither deserue to be counted hereticks though they cannot be reclaimed from their errors nor to be held for schismaticks as long as they breake not off communion
make outward profession of beleeuing the Gospell and obeying the Pope though he haue not Christian vertue in him no not so much as that faith he maketh shew of For if this serue to giue vs the right of being true members the Church may well be quite without inward holinesse as a matter not appertaining to the essence or nature of it The last part of your Minor is false the Protestants Churches haue had many thousand holy men euen all that euer held the truth of the Gospell according to the Scriptures and your Church neuer had nor shall haue any one truly sanctified that was wholly a member thereof after your account that is which agreed or agreeth with you in all points of Antichristianisme But I will follow you in your courses and of this say more afterward First you prooue the latter part and dispute against our Church in this sort That Church which hath had no members of it reuealed to be holie by miracle or anie other certaine waie from God hath had no members of it holy But the Protestants Church hath had no members of it reuealed to be holy by miracle or any other certain way from God Therefore the Protestants Church hath had no members of it holy I denie your Maior because it will follow vpon granting it that no man is truly to be counted holy but he that is declared to be so by miracle or some other certaine way from God For your whole discourse sheweth that this is your meaning where you tell vs that No man can be knowne to be holy but by Gods testimonie of his holinesse by miracle or some other certaine way Of miracles by and by In the meane while I would faine know what these other certaine waies are which God vseth to giue vs assurance of this or that mans holinesse will you tell vs a tale of I know not what reuelations out of your Legends and bookes of examples which are full of such fained apparitions Put case those lewde lies were true tales and that the miracles deuised by some of your complices were worthie of credit surely the number of them that haue bene truely holy hath bene verie small if no more haue bene holy then can pleade such miracles or reuelatiōs for proofe of their holinesse As for those that haue testimony of their holinesse from God in the Scriptures both they are verie few in comparison for so many thousand yeares and that meanes of shewing who are holy ceassed aboue one thousand foure hundred yeares since Now concerning Miracles why should we in these daies gape after them like the vnbeleeuing Iewes for the confirmation of any mans holinesse since we haue no warrant nor example of Scripture to apply them to any such purpose Bring me one example if you can out of the whole Scripture of any miracle wrought to prooue any man to be holy The vse of miracles is the confirmation of doctrine or rather the auowing of mens calling from God that their doctrine may be receiued If I do not the works of my Father saith our Sauiour beleeue me not but if I do then though ye beleeue not me yet beleeue the works that ye may know and beleeue that the Father is in me and I in him These things are written that ye might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ the sonne of God To that end did our Sauiour furnish his Apostles with power to worke miracles As ye go preach saying the kingdome of God is at hand Heale the sicke cleanse the leaprous raise vp the dead Therefore doth Pacianus require miracles of the Nouatians because they brought in a new Gospell And why I pray you do false Prophets that arise shew many great signes and wonders To prooue themselues to be holy No surely if they desire an opinion of holinesse it is that their doctrine might the rather be receiued But to proceed yet further if no man be holy that hath not miracles to testifie his holinesse I doubt much whether any man may be thought holy or no. For it is out of question that wicked men haue wrought miracles either truely or at least which I rather beleeue in shew so that men could not discerne the contrarie Shall I need to name Pharaoes sorcerers Doth not the Scripture tell vs that false Christs and false Prophets shall shew signes and wonders Doth not the Apostle forewarne vs that Antichrist shal come with signes and lying wonders Your owne schooleman Gabriel Biel telleth vs that miracles are wrought often times by the operation of diuels And Lyra is not afraid to say that Now and then there is great deceit vsed in the Church by miracles fained by the Priests or some that are about them for their worldly commoditie Your Church affoordeth vs examples of notorious lies in this kinde I will name two of your principall Saints Saint Bridget auoucheth that it was reuealed to her that the Virgin Marie was preserued from Originall sinne Saint Katharin of Syena had a quite contrarie reuelation From whom rrow you came these miracles Many miracles saith Theophylact haue bene done by the diuell And Austin speaking of such wonders alledged by the followers of Donatus reiecteth all such as deuises of lying men or illusions of deceitfull spirits Let vs heare your great Master Bellarmines iudgement of this matter where he maintaineth miracles as a marke of the Church Till the Church hath approoued those things that are done for miracles saith Bellarmine it is not euident or certaine by assurance of faith of any miracle that it is a true miracle His reason followeth That it is not euident it appeareth because then faith should be euident That it is not certaine by assurance of faith it is manifest because it is not cleare to vs by such assurance as cannot be false that the thing done is not an illusion of the diuell For though the diuell cannot worke any true miracle yet can he in shew do any thing neuer so wonderfull If then there be no meanes to iudge any man holy but by miracles nor any certaintie but by the testimony of the Church to know which are true miracles doubtlesse you can neuer prooue that your Church is holy because there haue bene holy men members of it till you haue first prooued it to be the true Church But of your proofe enough To your Minor I answer that Bellarmine out of whom you tooke all this maketh the holinesse of your men and their miracles two seuerall proofes though vnder the note of holinesse of life Out of him I say farther that the Patriarks Prophets and Apostles yea all that euer were holy were members of the same Church with vs holding the same doctrine that we do for the substance of it You bid me prooue it But by your leaue the duetie of prouing lies vpon the replier whose place you haue taken not
or dreame but that the like would haue bene set out about the alteration of religion if it had happened And that if any such Historie reporting any true accident of alteration or change of religion had come out it should partly by Gods prouidence partly by humane diligence haue bene preserued till these our daies especially considering that such records had bene so requisite for discerning the ancient vnchanged true Christian Religion from vpstart noueltie which must needs be false So that we may well conclude that if Christian Religion had since the Apostles time altered in Rome it would haue bene recorded in histories as other things and especially such notable alterations are recorded and those histories would haue bene preserued till this day as other Christian monuments haue bene preserued euen in time of persecution yea euen then when the persecutors made particular enquirie for Christian bookes to burne or consume them But in those ancient Histories there is no mention made of any such alteration of Religion in Rome Wherefore it followeth that there was no such alteration or change at all No such alteration being made it is euident that the same faith and Religion which was in Saint Paules time hath alwaies continued and is there now That which was there then was the true faith and Religion as appeareth by that high commendation which Saint Paule hath left written of it Therefore that which is there now must needs be the onely true holy and Catholicke faith and that companie which professeth it must needs be the Onely true Holy and Catholicke Church Neither can I see what answere can with any probabilitie be forged against this reason For to say that the errours of the Church of Rome crept in by little and little and so for the littlenesse of the thing or for negligence of the Pastours were not espied is an idle fiction alreadie refuted For first those matters which the Protestants call errours in the Romane Church be not so little matters but that lesse euen in the like kinde are ordinarily recorded in stories Nay some of them are in the Protestants conceits and consequently if men of old time had bene Protestants they would haue bene also in their conceits as grosse superstition as Paganisme it selfe namely to adore Christ our Sauiour as being really and substantially present in the Blessed Sacrament the which Sacrament Protestants hold to be really and substantially but a bare peece of bread Also the Protestants account the vse of the Images to be Idolatrie and say verie ignorantly or maliciously that we adore stockes and stones as the Paynims did The which things could not so haue crept in by little and little but they must needs be espied Neither could the Pastours of the Church at any time be so simple and ignorant so sleepie and negligent but they must needes haue seene and seeing must needes in some sort haue resisted as before I haue said For to imagine all the Pastours of any one age to haue bene in such a deepe Lethargicall and deadly sleepe that they could not onely not perceiue when the enemie should ouer sow Cockle in the hearts of some but also when this Cockle of false beleefe should grow to outward action and especially to publicke practise the which could not be but most apparent to imagine I say all the Pastors to be so simple and sleepie not then to marke or not to resist is rather the dreame of a proud man in his sleepe who is apt to thinke all men fooles beside himselfe then a iudictall conceit of a waking man of any vnderstanding who ought to thinke of things past either according to the veritie recorded in stories or when this faileth by comparing the likelihood of that which hee thinketh was done by men of that time with that which most men of their qualitie would do in like case Finally if these things were so that the church did by this means for so long space in such important matters vniuersally erre Neglexerit officium Spiritus sanctus as Tertullian speaketh refuting the like cauill of heretickes the holy Ghost should haue neglected his office which is as I haue proued before out of Scripture not to permit the vniuersall Church to fall into error but to suggest vnto it all things that Christ said vnto it and to teach it all truth A. W. Catholicknesse especially as you vnderstand it is not such a propertie of the Church but the Church may be without it as it is plaine by that Church which was in our Sauiour Christs time onely in the land of Iewrie and after his death till the Church was scattered abroade in the world Yet let vs see what you bring to prooue that our Church is not Catholicke If there cannot be assigned a visible companie of men professing the same faith which the Protestants do euer since Christs time continuing without interruption till now then the Protesiants Church is not Catholicke But there cannot be such a companie assigned Therefore the Protestants Church is not Catholicke I denie the consequence of the maior First because that may be Catholicke which is not visible as the Church of the elect is dispersed in all places and yet no where to be seene Secondly because Catholicknesse belongs neither to time nor doctrine but to place and persons Thirdly because it is not required that the same faith in all points should be professed which you meane by the same faith but onely the same in matters fundamentall I grant your minor that we cannot assigne you any such companie though we doubt not but that there was alwayes such a companie greater or lesse as appeares by them which from time to time haue by their writings or sufferings maintained the substance of that doctrine which we now professe To proue that our doctrine is not vniuersal you say it chiefly consisteth of negatiues whereas you cannot be ignorant that we hold all the articles of the creed and that in the same sense as you do saue onely in some few differences about the vnderstanding of beleefe what it is to beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost and what it is to beleeue the Church and in what respect the Church is called holy and Catholicke and what the Church is that we beleeue But we denie some things that some auncient writers haue held Doe you follow them in all points You will not say so for very shame But our Church is truly Catholicke because it is not tied to the Iewes or Ierusalem no nor to any other place or persons but common to all that will beleeue in Iesus Christ VVhat get you if you proue your Church to be Catholicke since that alone without the two former points alreadie disproued cannot make any companie a true Church But neither can you proue your Church to be Catholicke let your argument speake That Church which is vniuersall in time place and doctrine of the
yet saith Thomas they had not perfect faith because some of them were by false Apostles seduced so that they thought the cermonies of the law were to be ioyned with the Gospell He doth not saith your interlinear Glosse commend their faith as perfect but their readinesse and desire to embrace Christ All which notwithstanding we willingly graunt that the Romane Church was at that time and long after a true Church what gather you of this graunt I hope you will not say that therefore it must needs be a true church still But we shal better vnderstand your meaning by that which followeth There is nothing you Papists are more afraid of then to be drawne to iustifie your doctrine by Scripture Therefore you alwayes keepe aloofe and tell vs of the Church the Church as the Iewes did Ieremie of the Temple The Romane Church say you was once a true Church Who denieth it Therefore is it so still I say you that it is vnlesse you can shew at what time it departed from the true faith Did you neuer know any man who in his youth had blacke haire and now being old is all white headed Put case I would stand verie stifly vpon your argument and say that his head is blacke still and vrge you to tell me when the first haire changed white Would you answer me or laugh at me for my folly But such changes in faith say you would haue bene resisted or at least recorded by some and you prooue it thus If no heresie as contrarie to truth as blacke is to white was euer heard of to haue arisen without noting or resisting nor any such could now possibly so arise then no such thing is to be beleeued of the Romane Church But no such heresie was euer heard of to haue arisen nor can so arise without noting or resisting Therefore no such thing is to be beleeued of the Romane Church That I may answer directly to your Syllogisme remember which I also noted before that you take it as granted that there was neuer any noting or resisting of errours but there is yet record remaining of it Whereas we gessing reasonably of that which is past by that we see euerie day perswade our selues that your Popish inquisitors and censurers haue raced and destroyed many records wherein the arising of your errors and the resistance made against them haue bene noted I would speake more of this matter but that almost euerie childe knoweth how shamefully and lewdly you deale euerie day with your owne mens writings who forced by the euidence of truth here and there giue witnesse to our doctrine in their bookes We see not then why we may not yeeld this conclusion for ought that it can aduantage you or hurt vs. All such errours doubtlesse haue bene noted and resisted though the records thereof be perished defaced or destroyed by your Antichristian Prelates Secondly though it were granted to be true that No heresie as contrarie to the truth as blacke is to white euer could arise without being noted or recorded yet might your Popish errours haue stollen in for the most part vnperceiued Because they were not apparently contrary to the knowne truth as the absurd examples you bring of sacrificing an Oxe or worshipping a Cow are Poperie as the Apostle saith of it vnder the title of Antichristianisme is a mysterie of iniquitie which began to worke in his daies and by little and little with colourable pretences wrought it selfe into the Church till it came to that height in which all the world now seeth it I might exemplifie this matter in that great point of your Popes licentious and vnlimited authority how it began by reason of the place Rome being the chiefe seat of the Empire how it grew by the fauour of the Emperours and the worthinesse of some Bishops of that sea and so crept on till it had gotten strength to trample the Emperours themselues vnder foote It is said by way of prouerbe that Rome was not built in one day The speach is as true of your Popes Romish gouernment as of Romulus first founding the Citie The occasions and pretences of your Popes greatnesse were reasonable faire to shew and seemed to promise I know not what securitie to religion and peace to Christendome but the euenthath shewed that the one by it was for a time quite ouerthrowne the other partlie destroyed and altogether brought into great hazard But I may not enlarge my answer to farre Our Historiographer whom you finde fault with no doubt spake in that iust indignation he conceiued against the intollerable pride of the Romish Monke Austin in pittie of that bloodshed which insued vpon his finding fauour with the Saxon kings whom he caused to imbrew their hands in the bloud of many thousand poore Christians because forsooth they would not submit themselues to his insolencie If his speech sound vnpleasantly in your eares how would you haue liked that of our Sauiour in the Gospell VVo be to you Scribes and Pharisies Hypocrites For ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made you make him two fold the childe of hell more then your selues For saith Ierome he that before did but simply erre in his ignorance by your lewd conuersation is driuen from his profession backe againe to Gentilisme Surely they that before were heathen and might by Gods blessing haue bene wonne to the truth of the Gospell through the preaching of the Britans and their humble conuersation by this Austin lost the opportunitie and became persecutors of true Christians for your pride and superstition with which afterward the whole nation was miserably ouerwhelmed and at last almost perished vnder the Normans But to giue you some better satisfaction touching this point heare I pray you in a few words what one of your owne writers saith It is a thing full of horror saith Bucchingerus either to reade or remember that the Popes of Rome practised such tyranny one against another O how are they degenerated from their Ancestors It could not be that in the time of such cruelty there should be any regard had of Christian pietie Let no man then maruaile if some abuses and peruerse opinions crept into the Church There was great ignorance of the Scripture and loue of superstition The Lord sending men strong delusions that they should beleeue lies because they had not receiued the loue of the truth You presse vs here as you thinke with some probabilitie that if there had bene any alteration of religion it would certainly haue bene recorded But how should it haue bene recorded when it was not seene You dreame of a sodain change where as the alteration grew from good to bad yet with shew of some goodnesse and from bad to worse so nicely that few or none could discerne it Your probabilities are two The former in this manner If there could not a little
infallible and vniuersall rule accommodate to the capacitie of euerie one the which rule cannot be any other but the doctrine and teaching of the true Church the which Church is alwaies to continue visible vntill the worlds end and is to be knowne by these foure markes Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke the which markes agree onely to the Romane Church that is to say to that companie which doth communicate and agree in profession of faith with the Church of Rome whereupon followeth that this Church or companie is the onely true Church of which euerie one must learne that faith which is necessarie to saluation Considering I say all this I would demaund of the Protestants how they can perswade themselues to haue that faith which is necessarie to saluation sith they will not admit the authoritie and doctrine of the Church of which onely they ought to learne this faith Or how they can as some of them do challenge to themselues the title of the true Church sith their companie hath neuer one of the foure markes which by common consent of all must nedes be acknowledged for the true markes of the Church How can their congregation be the true Church which neither is One because it hath no meanes to keepe vnitie nor Holy because neither was there euer any man of it which by miracle or any other euident testimony can be prooued to haue bene truly holy neither is their doctrine such as those that most purely obserue it do without faile thereby become holy nor Catholicke because it teacheth not all truths that haue bene held by the vniuersall Church in former times but denieth many of them neither is it spred ouer all the Christian world but being diuided into diuers sectes euerie particular sect is contained in some corner of the world Neither hath it bene in all times euer since Christ but sprong vp of late the first founder being Martin Luther an Apostata a man after his Apostasie from his professed religious order knowne both by his writings words deeds and manner of death to haue bene a notable ill liuer Nor Apostolicke because the preachers thereof cannot deriue their Pedegree lineally without interruption from any Apostle but are forced to beginne their line if they will haue any from Luther Caluin or some latter How can they then brag that they haue the true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke faith sith this is not found in any companie that differeth in doctrine from the onely true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church For if it be true which Saint Austin saith that in ventre Ecclesiae veritas manet the truth remaineth in the bellie of the Church it is impossible that those who are disioyned by difference of beleefe from that companie which is knowne to be the true Church should haue the true faith For true faith as before hath bene prooued is but one wherefore he that differeth in beleefe from them which haue the true faith either he must haue a false faith or no faith at all Againe one cannot haue true faith vnlesse he first heare it according to the ordinarie rule of Saint Paule saying Fides ex auditu faith commeth of hearing but how can one heare true doctrine of faith sine praedicante without one to preach truly vnto him And how should one preach truly at least in all points nisi mittatur vnlesse he be sent and consequently assisted by the spirit of God Now how should we know that Luther or Caluin or any other that will leap out of the Church leaue that company wherin is vndoubted succession and by succession lawfull mission or sending from God how should we I say know that these men teaching a new and contrarie doctrine were indeed sent of God Nay certainly we may be most sure that they were not sent of God For sith Almightie God hath by his Sonne planted a Church vpon earth which Church he would haue alwaies continue vntill the worlds end and hath placed in it a visible succession of lawfull ordinarie Pastours whom he will with the assistance of himselfe and his holy Spirit so guide that they shall neuer vniuersally faile to teach the true faith and to preserue the people from errours we are not now to expect any to be sent from God to instruct the people but such onely as come in this ordinarie manner by lawfull succession order and calling according as S. Paule saith Nec quisquam sumit sibi honorem sed qui vocatur à Deo tanquam Aaron Neither doth any man take to himselfe the honour but he that is called of God as Aaron was to wit visibly and with peculiar consecration as we reade in Leuiticus cap. 8. To which accordeth that which we reade 2. Paralip 26. where Azarias said to king Ozias Non est tui officij Ozia vt adoleas incensum Domino sed Sacerdotum hoc est filiorum Aaron qui consecrati sunt ad huiusmodi ministerium egredere de sanctuario c. It is not thy office O Ozias to offer incense to our Lord but it is the office of Priests to wit of the sonnes of Aaron who are consecrated to this function or ministerie go out of the Sanctuarie Which bidding when Ozias contemned and would not obey he was presently stricken with a leprosie and then being terrified feeling the punishment inflicted by our Lord he hastened away as in the same place is declared By which places we may learne that it doth not belong to any one to do priestly functions as to offer incense or sacrifice to God or take vpon them the authoritie to preach and instruct the people but onely to Priests called visibly and consecrated for this peculiar purpose as Aaron and his children were For though the priesthood of the Pastors of the new law be not Aaronicall yet it agreeth with the Priesthood of Aaron according to S. Paul his saying in the foresaid place in this that those that come to it must not take the honor of themselues but must be called vnto it of God as Aaron was to wit visibly and by peculiar consecration In which ordinarie maner whosoeuer cometh he may be truly called Pastor ouium a Pastor of Christs flocke because intrat per ostium he entereth in by the doore to wit by Christ himselfe who first visibly called consecrated and sent immediately the Apostles and the Apostles by authoritie receiued from him did visiblie by imposition of hands call consecrate and send others and those in like manner others from time to time without interruption vntill these present men who now are Priests of the Catholicke Romane Church These therefore enter in by Christ who is the doore and therefore these be true Pastours and whosoeuer entereth not thus in at the doore but commeth in another way our Sauiour telleth vs how we should account of him when he saith Qui non intrat per ostium in ouile ouium
the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily