others might by the readyng therof obtayne vnderstanding c. The Scripture is the power of God to saluatioÌ„ by it we knowe God and Christ by it we knowe our selues by it we are taught our duety toward our neyghbour by it we learn to obei our prince by it we know the true Prophet froÌ„ the false the Scriptures ar to be preferred before al the writings of men it is the touche stone wherby we ought to examine Ad Reginaâ— derecta fide the doctrines of men Cyril sayth it is necessary for vs that we folow the holy Scriptures not to swarue in anye thyng that is commaunded in them S. Ambrose vpon the. 1. Epistle to the Corinthes 4. chap. saith what soeuer is not receiued froÌ„ the handes of the Apostles is full of wickednes Cyprian in Sermon â— de lapsis And how dare they ordeyne and decree any thing without Christ whose hope and fayth vertue and glorye is whollye in hym Origine vpon Ezechiell Homili 7. lette vs folowe no man and if wee will folowe any wee haue Christe set foorth to vs to followe The actes of the Apostles are set forth vnto vs we know the doings of the Prophetes by the holy volumes that is a sounde exaÌ„ple to folow Theophilactus vpoÌ„ the Epistle to the Romains the last chap. sayth They whiche bryng any thyng beside the determinations and doctrine of the Apostles they bryng in offences heresies and dissensions Ireneus aduersus Valentini similiuÌ„ scripta lib. 2. cap. 56 â–ª Leane to the holy Scriptures which is the sure and vndoubted truth it is a sure stone wherwith to build when ye leaue this cleaue to any other doctrines c. S. Augustine in his prologue of his 3. boke of the trinitie sayth Obey not my writinges as thou wilte the Canonicall scriptures for what so euer thou shalt finde in theÌ„ that thou beleuest not the same beleue without douting but in myne if Authority of the wrytingâ— of the fathers thou finde any thing wherin thou art not persuaded thorowly beleue it not assuredly Againe in his 112. Epistle which he writeth to Paulm he speaketh to the like end IteÌ„ in his 2. boke of Baptisme against the Donatists 3. chap. he saith you alwayes alledge to vs the letters of CypriaÌ„ the sayinges of CypriaÌ„ why take you authoritie of CypriaÌ„ for your Scisme refuse his exaÌ„ple to trouble the church who is he that doth not well know that the Canonicall scriptures as wel of the olde as of the new Testament are conteined within limites which ar certain that the same is to be preferred to the writings of al the Bishops yâ— haue ben hereto fore so that we may not in any thing doute or dispute of it to wit whether yâ— all yâ— therin is be true or no but it is lawfull to repreheÌ„d the writings of the Bishops which were writen before or which wer writen after the coÌ„firmation of the Canonical scriptures either by word c. Moreouer Origene vpoÌ„ the Prophet Ieremie in his 1. Howelie sayth we must needes call to witnesse the holy Scriptures for without theÌ„ no maÌ„ ought to credite our sayings or writings S. Hierom vpon s Mathew fayth That which is spokeÌ„ without the authoritie of the scriptures euen as it is spoken so may it be reiected conteÌ„ned vpon Ieremie 9. chap. sayth The error of fathers mothers of auÌ„cesters ought not to be folowed but the authoritie of the scriptures the coÌ„mauÌ„demeÌ„t of God whiche he teacheth vs c. And within fewe lynes after he sayth Assuredly thorowe ignorauÌ„ce of the law men shall receiue Antichrist for Christ c. S. CypriaÌ„ to Cecil in his 3. boke of his Epistles 3. Epistle saith yf you do that which I coÌ„mauÌ„de you I will not cal you my seruauÌ„tes but my frends And also that Christ ought onely to be herd the father hath borne witnes from heauen saying This is my welbeloued sonne in whom I am well pleased heare him wherfore if it be so the Christ onely ought to be herd then ought we not to looke what any man before vs hath thought good to be done but that which Christ who is Christ and not custom is to be followed before all hath done for we are not bouÌ„d to folow the custome of meÌ„ but the truth of God for so much as God sayth by his Prophet Esay in ye. 29. chap They honor me in vain teaching the coÌ„mauÌ„demeÌ„ts doctrines of meÌ„ And again in the Gospel Mathew 15. you reiect the coÌ„mauÌ„demeÌ„t of God to establishe your own traditions And therfore deare brother if anye of our predecessors eyther through ignoraunce or simplicitye haue not obserued that which the Lord hath taught vs to do by his example or doctrine that same may be refused for the symplenes therof may through the mercies of the Lord be pardoned him c. And shortly after he sayth if we be the elders ministers of God Christ I fynd not that we ought to follow any but God Christ for somuch as he saith in the Gospel of Iohn chap. 8. I am the light of the world he that followeth me shal not walke in darcknes but shal haue the Diuiâ—â—â—um institut lib. 6. cap. 8 light of life LactaÌ„ti ' Firmian ' in his 6. boke of his godly institutioÌ„s 8. chap. sayth we ought not to follow meÌ„ but god The canons decrees of the Popes in the. 9. distinct ca. Noli cap. Ego cap. Negare dist 24 1. quest ca. Non affermam ' say thus Men must dwell vpon the holy Scriptures not vpon the sayings of men how holy soeuer they be c. S. Chrisostome vpoÌ„ S. Iohn sayth in the end of the. 16. homelie That meÌ„ of occupatioÌ„ do seeke striue to be excellent in their occupacions Gredi desire of corporall things and carelesnesse of spirituall things but the christiaÌ„ can not render reasoÌ„ of his religion if these handy occupations were not knowen it were but losse of money but the coÌ„tempt of the christiaÌ„ religioÌ„ carieth with it destruction of the soule yet we tranayle in so great miserye madnes that we bestow in theÌ„ all our studie care but the things which are most necessary for vs and are most sure fortes of our saluation we esteme not at all It is it that letteth the heathens froÌ„ acknowledging their errour and causeth theÌ„ to scoffe at vs for albeit they are grouÌ„ded onely vpoÌ„ lyes to do al that which they do to defend the ignominie of their doctrine we which serue the truth dare not once opeÌ„ our mouthes to defend that which is ours why should they not condemne our great imbecillitie haue vs in supicion to be crafty disceitful why should they not speake euil of Christ as of a lyar who by his fraud should haue abused the simplicitie of the multitude we are
cloke therwith their disobedience rebellion against the word of God for whē al is said theris but one thing that hindereth all this to wit that such mē will not be obedient to the voyce of the Lord nor take coūsell of him nor folowe him But for so muche as they dare not say and declare the same openly bycause that they will not be knowen to be such as they are in dede but would be thought of mē to be honest and such as feare God they seke these shiftes and starting holes They are lyke to those aduocates that pleade an euill cause who haue determined to do no right to their contrarie partie but seeke onely by cauilling how to shift out the matter bycause that they will neuer be enforced to grow to any honeste ende ¶ Of the langage that is in the heart of the hypocrites vvicked and hovv they cloke it before the vvorld D. THou hast stricken the white in the middest and haste touched the very pithe of that vniuersall disease that raygneth throughe out the worlde the whiche Iesus Christ doth thorowly open vnto vs when he sayeth speakyng of hys doctrine That he that is desirous to do the will of hys Iohn vii father shall soone knowe whether it be of God or no. There is but one thing that disguiseth this whole matter which is that some of them can couer and cloke otherwise and more finely then can the others T. It is certayne without any circumlocution that those whiche searche out such starting holes should rather say euen at one worde that whiche the wicked ones spake of whom the Scripture in the boke of the Prophetes declareth sayinge we haue nothyng to do with Esay lviii Psal ii God We will not knowe hys wayes nor walke in the same nor yet beare hys yoke D. It is very true But that shoulde not bee so honorable for them nor haue so good a grace For although they speake it in theyr heart they will in no wise that the world vnderstand it yea and that which is more vile they ar so beastly do so much delight in their folly and filthy sophistrie that they thincke euē by the same to be able to abuse and mocke God euen as they abuse and mocke men as though he sawe not the wickednes of their hartes and wanted wisedom vnderstanding how to trap the subtil and craftie in their cauteles and finesses ¶ Of the persecutours of the veritie and of the diuerse sortes of them T. NOw if those of whō we haue already spoken haue very slender reason to alledge howe do you thincke of those that are not contented with such excuses but employ their whole forces to persecute the truth of God and as many as will teach folow the same D. There are thre sortes of these kinde of people there are of them that persecute the truth and those that folowe it of a certaine malice euen against the witnesse that the spirit of God yeldeth in their own consciences onely for hatred that they beare agaynste God and his truth There ar also others which do it not so much for hatered that they beare agaynst the truth as for the honors and riches which they hope to obtaine by resisting the same or els that they haue already obtayned The third are those that do the like throughe ignoraunce ¶ Of such as persecute the truth of a purposed malice and of the sinne agaynst the holy Ghost or sinne to death T. WHat sayest thou of the first sorte of those men D. I say that they are of the very nature of the deuill for he hath no cause to hate God and his truth but onely of the wickednes that is in hym and of the enuie and immortall hatered that he doth beare to God and his truth T. Then is the sinne of suche men lyke to the sinne of the deuill D. It is euen so wherfore they shall haue lyke punishment for they shall neuer obtayne pardon nor grace T. It is then that sinne that Iesus Christ doth call the sinne agaynst the holy Ghost and saint Iohn sinne vnto death for the which Math. xii Iohn 5. he forbiddeth men to praye But thinckest thou that there are any so wicked and so full of malice vpon the earth that wil so of purpose make warres against God D. If ther wer none then would none haue bene found amōg the Scribes and Phariseis and the rest of the Iewes before whom Iesus Christe made mencion of the sinne agaynst the holye Ghost I do thinke he would haue holden no suche purpose ne yet Sainte Iohn neither And I am well assured that Alexander the Coppersmith of whom Sainte Paule complaineth much writing to Timothe did very nere approch the nature of such if he were not fully such an one or els I should greatly marueil of the prayer that saint Paule maketh ii Tim. iiii against him saying Alexander the Copersmyth hath done me great hurt the Lord reward him according to hys desertes of whom be thou ware also for he hath greatly resisted our preaching If he had offended rather of ignorāce then of malice I beleue that Saint Paule woulde rather haue praied for him as he did in the same epistle for others with whom he was not well pleased I doubt not but he would haue followed the example of Iesus Christe and of saint Steuen who prayed for their persecutours rather then to haue prayed against him For it semeth that he had no hope of his conuersion and health T. Men may cal these kinde of men the most wicked of all wicked and the eldest sonnes of the deuil But it is wonderful to see them so wicked and to see them so dispitefully to make wars agaynst God and his truth and yet they wyll couer them with the name of God of the zeale of his glorye For ther is none be he neuer so euil if he be not vtterly desperate but when he persecuteth the truth he wil pretend to fauour the same and would that men should thinke that he persecuteth not the truth but errour and lyes for the mayntenāce of Gods truth D. The matter is verye apparant namelye in the Scribes and Phariseis and in the bishops high Priestes Princes of Ierusalem which crucified Iesus Christe and Math. 24. 27. 28. Iohn 5. 8. 10. 11. 18. 19 yet fayned that they persecuted him for blasphemyng ▪ the maiesty of God Wherfore the more that suche men so villanously abuse the name of God wherewith to couer their murders and wickednes the more are they accursed and worthie of greater iudgement ¶ Of those that resiste the truth vvittingly and do persecute it agaynst their ovvne consciences to please men therby and to get the riches of this vvorlde and of the calamities of these dayes T. LEt vs leaue this first kinde of men and let vs speake of the other two kindes of persecutours whom thou hast already named D. The second
those thinges whereof we haue alreadye discoursed to that purpose and because I will not be to tedious vnto thee D. Feare not to demaunde of me for there is nothing that I doe more willinglye T. I know that wel but I should be to much discourtese and rude if I shoulde haue no regarde nor spare thee more then thou wouldest spare thy selfe Moreouer it is not suffiiâ—ent for me to heare onely as doe many scholers whiche charge them selues with moe lessons then their capacitie may endure doing nothing but heare without profitting or learning of any thing D. Thou haste reason in that that thou sayest ⧠The effect of the thyrd Dialogue intitled the authoritie of Councells making mention of the auncient doctors and decrees I Doe conteyne in this Dialogue following the matter of Councels concernyng theyr authoritie alledging many examples of auncient hystories by the which I doe shewe the greate contrarietye that hath beene betwene many Councels and many decrées and Canons as wel of them as of Romishe Popes There is in the same also mention made of the libertie geueÌ„ to Christians for to reforme the abuses that shall happen in religion and of the duetie that euery man doth owe to the same and of the attent of them that do attend vpon those that are called the prelates of the church Likewise of the lawefull assembles that are made in the name of Christ and of the gift of Prophecie and of the promise of God and to whom and vppon what condition Moreouer of the authoritie of the true and lawfull Councels which must be holdeÌ„ to be the very rule and lyne to rule all others and what proceeding and order the Pope and his do obserue in theirs And as touching the rest euery man may the more easely vnderstand the other poyntes and matters thâ—t therin are entreated of by the litle summes or titles by the which we haue packed theÌ„ together shortly declaring them in order euen as we haue done in the Dialognes going before It is easye to iudge by thys som why I haue geuen thys title to thys Dialogue ⧠The thyrd Dialogue intitled the authoritie of Councells ¶ Of the asistance of the holy Ghost in lavvful Councels and of his giftes and of the perpetual conseruation of the truth in the church Tymothe Daniell IF thou haddest tyme I woulde verye gladlye that thou wouldest continue those matters of the which we did discourse at our laste departure of the one from the other D. I am readye when so euer thou wilte be ready to heare And therfore declare what thou haste to saye as touching the writings of the auncient Fathers and Doctors what difference there ought to be put betwene them and the decrées passed and determined in the lawfull Councells T. When these good fathers and auncient doctors do teach or write any thing in particular they may more easely erre being as particulars theÌ„ when they are assembled together at the Councel in the which the spirit of God doth assiste in greater effecte and vertue in so much as the giftes graces which he hath geuen to euery member of the body of Iesus Christ are all there together euen as it were in one perfecte Roma xii i. Cor. xii Ephe. 4 i Sam. 10 body Wherefore the one helpeth the other and euery man feeleth the more presently the vertue of the spirit of God in himself For if Saule which was forsaken of God dyd prophecie among the Prophets after that he was come into their companies in such sort that it became a common prouerbe among the Hebrewes and it was sayd is not Saule also amongest the Prophets Is it not more like to be true that God will geue the spirite of prophecie to them that come together to the Councell for his glory and for the edification of the Church For where is it that the promises by the which God doth promyse his perpetuall assistaunce and an euerlasting course of truth to his church shoulde haue place if not in such a company Hath he not sayd behold my couenaunt which I haue made with them My spirit which is in thee and my wordes which I haue put into thy mouth shal Esay iix not depart froÌ„ thy mouth nor froÌ„ the mouth of thy seede foreuer And agayne he will geue you an other comforter the spirit of truth to the end that he tarye with you And he shal Iohn xiiii lead you in the knowledge of all truth D. I will not vtterly denie al that thou saiest if they come together to that end that thou speakest of But al Synedes Seanes and Councels haue not alwayes ben assembled in the name of Iesus Christ The examples which are in the ecclesiasticall hystoryes doe witnesse the same and the Canons and decrees which haue bene ordayned and concluded in them For oftentimes they repugne the one to the other as much as do the fyre and water ¶ VVhat thynges there are to be desired in Councells yea euen in those Councells vvhich haue beene moste excellent and lavvfull of all those that haue bene celebrated and holden since the tyme of the Apostles T. I Would very gladly that thou wouldest proue by some examples worthy of fayth that which thou now sayest D. Euen those same that haue bene most lawfullye assembled although thei haue ordained established very good things founded vpon the word of God and that they haue mightelye defended the cause of the truth that God hath not suffered them to erre in the chiefe pointes in matters that are properly the very substance of religion and do concerne the articles of the fayth necessarye vnto saluation yet doth it not follow for all that but that they may haue erred in some thinges that they may haue made constitutions that somtime are more contrary to the word of God theÌ„ coÌ„formable And without seking any further we nede but to examine the Canons decrées ordinaunces of the Councell of Nice which is accompted the chiefe of all next to the Councell of the Apostles of all that reste consequently which men thinke to be that most perfect certayn most worthy of credite and it shall be easye to iudge if euery of theÌ„ hold in al respectes the Apostolike maiestie authoritie how farre of they are oftentimes froÌ„ the puritie of doctrine which was in the primitiue church For God would not do vnto others that honour which he hath done to his Prophets Apostles to the end that the humaine authoritie should not be coÌ„parable to the deuine which ought alwaies to be preferred How many lawes constitutions may men fynde made in these Councels which draw more nere to mans wysedome or to Iewishe and Paganishe supersticion then to the simplicitie of the doctrine of the Apostles I speake of the verye same that haue bene decreed by those Councells that are best allowed in the church of God and Christ and are worthye to bee esteemed
steade of that horrible voyce and of the Trompettes and of the thunders whiche dyd shake the heauen and also the earthe whyche made the Mountaynes to tremble and rynge whiche accordyng to the testimonye of Dauid is Psalm xxix of that force that it breaketh and teareth downe the Ceders of Libanus and maketh them to leape lyke Calues and the Mountayne it selfe lyke younge Vnicornes and it maketh the greate floudes of water to come and also to returne and it cutteth a sunder the flames of fyre and launceth them forthe as dartes and maketh the wyldernesses to shake and dothe vnclothe the forrestes and maketh the Mountaynes to breake and the Hyndes to Calue Wee heare that sweete and louynge voyce of the chylde Iesus the Sonne of GOD the true Immanuell Math. 1. 2. Esay vii Luke ii Math. xi by whome we maye lawfullye saye GOD is wyth vs wee heare that amyable voyce whiche saythe Come vnto me all ye that are laden and weeryed and I wyll case you and you shall fynde reste to youre soules Take my yoke vpon you for it is easye and lyght Wee heare that sweete voyce that comforteth all those whyche are poore and myserable whiche come to hym and declareth to all poore and wretched synners the grace Esay 61 Luke 4 Heb. v Mat. 27. and the mercye of GOD and the forgeuynge of synnes whiche prayeth wyth lamentynge and teares for poore synners Yea euen for hys verye ennemyes and is hearde and doth reconcile vs to God It is he that hathe broughte to vs from heauen the resolution of the greate Councell of God to the whiche all the Patriarches Prophetes haue consented and agreed The which he hath confirmed Heb. iii Rom. 3. 5 not only by signes and miracles which were much more excellent then euer were those that were wroughte by the handes of Moyses but also by his deathe by his resurrection and by his ascension and laste of all by the holye Ghost whome he sent to his Apostles and disciples in wonderfull maiestie in the likenes of firy tongues and with a founde from heauen as it had bene of a mightye wynd Mat. 27. 28. Luke 24 â—cte 1. 2. 3. which was sodenly risen but more louyng theÌ„ the fire and whirle windes which were perceaued and sene in the Mount of Synay T. The difference is very great ¶ Of the last seale and of the laste declaration and confirmation of the doctrine of God and of the nature and vertue of the holy Ghost D. IT is he that was the great seale of the whole eternal purpose and Councell of God by whom he declared with greater authoritie theÌ„ euer he did how he did put his church in lawfull ful possession of his holy spirit with signes and testimonies declaring his nature vertue For it is a wind Iohn iii. whose spring and rising none doth know whose being and nature is vnsearcheable who by his power beateth downe all those that resiste him and pourgeth and refresheth the soules and consciences and geueth life comfort and health to all those which geue ouer theÌ„ selues vnto him It is a fire which lighteth which pourgeth which doth warme heate the hartes and the tonges of the chosen of God which proueth the faythful and the vnfaythfull and consumeth al the reprobates wherfore in vayne do the enemies of God conspyre agaynst thys mightie winde in vayne do they kindle their fires and lighten their fornaces to quenche and put out this diuine fyre in vayne doe they holde their Councels to blotte out the decrees of thys eternall Councell of GOD sealed with such a seale For when we haue Iesus Christ the very sonne of God which was sent vnto vs froÌ„ Iohn 1. 6. the bosome of the Father we haue hym that bringeth the true seale and printe and the very marke of God with the which he is signed and allowed of the father to witnes vnto vs that he did sende him vnto vs as he vpon whom we ought onely to dwel And euen as he is allowed by God his father as is that which is allowed by the authoritised signe and seale of a prince so doth he also marke with the seale of his holy spirit al those which are marked with the seale of his eternall election which is sure according to the testimonye ii Tim. ii of Saint Paule And therfore he saith that the Lord dothe know all those that are his and that it is he that doth streng then vs and it is he that hath annoynted vs and marked vs and hath geuen vs in our heartes the earnest of the holy Ghoste for the daye of oure redemption Wherfore euen as the children of God be marked with thys marke and seale euen so can they not denye hym whose sygne and seale they ii Cor. i. Ephe. 1. 4. beare but for their parte also do seale and alowe the truthe of God in receiuing hym which he dyd send with his seale Seyng then that it is so we may not alledge the multitude Iohn 3 to take away the authoritie of that smal companye of sixe score personnes in the which the Apostles were who by the vertue of the holy Ghoste whiche they there receyued haue published the determinations of this great Councell For the truth and the Spirit of God ar bound neither to times places nor persons no not in dede vnto them which do possesse the seate of the very seruauntes of God and doo abuse their office and are gouerned by a contrary Spirite For al be it that the Bishoppes the Priestes the Scribes the Pharises the Councel of Ierusalem did occupye the place of the true seruantes of God and had authority ouer the temple and ouer the people and had all the worldly power and pompe on their syde did brag of the promises of the word of God Yet for all that the holye Ghost did neuer preside in their Councel as he dyd in the Councell of this small companie and their decrees agaynst the truth had not so great power to ouerthrowe it as the decrees of this small companye had to establyshe confirme and aduaunce it and to destroye all lyes and vntruth ¶ Of the examination of the true Christian doctrine and of the spring and laste determination of the same and of the curses agaynst those vvhich do falsefye it D. THese be the decrees of yâ— which it is written in the Prophets The law shall come forth froÌ„ Sion the word Esâ—y ii of God froÌ„ IerusaleÌ„ it is not sayd The law shal come forth froÌ„ that Mount Capitoline or Palatine or AdueÌ„tine or from any other of the seuen which are in Rome but froÌ„ the mount Sion froÌ„ Ierusalem therefore it behoueth vs well to consider whether the doctrine that is set forth vnto vs for Christian be agreable to that law word which came froÌ„ Sion Ierusalem and not to that which came forth from Rome froÌ„ the Mountaines of
no fayth For fayth may haue none other regard obiect subiect nor foundation but God in Iesus Christ his only truth Yf it haue any other foundation if it be builded vpon men and vpon the opinion that men shall haue of them it shal chaunge as men do and as the opinion doth that men haue conceiued It shall fall when they fall it shall be inconstant variable and subiect to chaunge euen as they are For she shal not be builded vpon Math. xxii i. Pet. ii Ephes ii i. Cor. iii Math. xvi the liuely stone whiche is Iesus Christ and vpon the sure foundacion of the Prophets and Apostles vpon the which the true Church must be builded if it will endure agaynst the gates of hel and the whole hellish power otherwise how may it be a faith For these vices are as contrarie to fayth as is the fire to the water Wherfore such as dwel vpon mē in this sorte and do not discerne of thynges nor proue the spirites whether they be of God or no according to the Coūcell gyuen by Saint Iohn What assurance may they haue Iohn iiii in their consciences Whylest they are at rest and that they be not assayled by temptacions nor wakened by the iudgement of God and that they do haunt among such as are of the same religion that they are of it semeth vnto them that their faith is very sure strong but when they shal find thēselues assailed with diuers temptacions compassed roūde with great daūgers that God shal a litle astoone their cōsciences with his iudgemēt they shall then finde what stay they haue of mē that there is no perfit assuraūce nor true quietnes of cōscience but in the true faith engendred in the hartes of mē by the very persuasion of the word spirite of God And if it should happē that they should be cōuersāt amōg men of an other Religion what would they then do T. Yf they should be in Turckie they would as well receyue the lawes of Mahomet refuse the Christian Religion as the Turckes do for they haue euen the same reasons and argumentes to do it as otherwise they haue to accepte or refuse that whiche they haue already receiued or disalowed They would euē do the lyke if that they were among the Iewes or any other nation whiche should hold any other religion then the Christian D. It is not to be doubted ¶ Of the honor that is devve to good and true teachers in the Churche and of the meane that vve ought to kepe to the ende that vve do gyue neither to much ne yet to little credite to men hovv perillous a thing it is to trust to much to a mans ovvne iudgemente T. IF the matter be as thou sayest to what purpose do the good doctors serue which haue receiued so many excellent giftes of God for the edifying of his Churche D. I say not these thynges to despise or condempne them for we should be to much vnkynde towarde them if we should condempne or despise them considerynge they haue taken so greate payne to make the holy Scriptures more playne and easie vnto vs and that by their laboure wee haue had greate commoditie They haue sweat to delyuer vs from a greate deale of payne and trauayle and haue greatlye holpen vs with their labour and made the way more plaine for vs. Also we should be to outragious against God if that we should despise them blasphemyng the giftes of hys holy spirite whiche he hath bestowed among them Wherefore thincke not that I do alow the iudgement of certaine rashe men or fauoure a nomber of puffed prowde spirites who without any regarde condempne all men esteemyng none but them selues Bycause they haue knowē that the worlde hath bene seduced by gyuyng to much credite to the iudgementes of men and haue bene to lyght of credite not enquiryng of the truth by the witnes of the holy Scriptures they haue gone so farre on the other syde that they are no lesse to be blamed then those whome they do condemne For if it bee perillous to credite to muche the iudgementes of men so is it also daungerous if that we gyue not that credite that we ought to do to the iudgementes of those which gouerne them selues accordyng to the worde of God T. It is a very hard matter to kepe measure and meane and so to do thinckyng to auoyde the one sorte of extremitie and perill that wee fall not more daungerously into the other For if I gyue no credite to the iudgemente of others but will dwell wholly vpon myne owne and vpon my oppinion wherin am I more worthy of prayse then they whō I do condempne Am not I a man as they are D. There is no doubt but if I do folow onely mine owne iudgement fantasie I folow the iudgement of men for I am no God any more then other men are If the others be to be blamed bycause of their ouer muche lightnes negligēce raysh belife follie so should I also feare that I be not subiecte to greater blame through follie pride selfe will false persuasiō of my selfe T. Here is no smal daūger but before all other things we ought to feare least we stand to much in our owne con trust to much to our owne iudgements vnderstanding despising the iudgementes of others to be to much gyuen and wedded to our own willes For this vice is meruellous daungerous is the chief fountain and cause of all heresies and Scismes whiche are the most daungerous pestilences that may happen into the Church D. Therfore haue I sayd these thinges to the ende that we mighte know how to folow that moderation the which S. Augustine hath folowed without giuing more or lesse vnto men then faith Christian charitie may endure yelding alwayes to God to the canonicall Scriptures that honor which we do owe vnto thē taking good hede that we gyue no more to Councels to men then to them what apparēce or shew so euer they haue For they that come to Councels are men And in that they are men they are chaungeable subiecte to errors and vntruth They do conclude accordynge as the spirite is by whom they are gouerned If they be led by the spirit of God they wyll conclude in the fauour of the truth yf they be led by the spirite of error as were the Prophetes of Achab agaynste Miche they will maynetayne and confirme lyes i. King xxii And by these meanes they that shal followe them shall bee in very good case ¶ Of the difference that men ought to put betvvene the doctrine and vvritings of the Apostles and Prophets and of those that came after them and the cause therof T. I Do confesse that those which come to the Councels are men but a man may replye that in a lawfull generall Councell they are guided by the holy Ghost and that he will not suffer them
to erre S. Paule and S. Iohn Iame. i. Act. 3. 14 Gal. 1. 2. Dauid and Ely Esay and Moyses and all the Prophets and Apostles were men like vnto others subiecte to the same infirmities that others were and yet S. Paule doth so authorise his doctrine as hath bene alreadye sayd that he condempneth the Aungels of heauen if they doe gayne saye it Wherfore they conclude that euen so as the Prophets and Apostles were men and yet notwithstanding all their writinges are without errour euen so fareth it with the fathers in all their determinations and Councels D. They conclude veri euel and speak wholy against the sentence of S. Augustin who is as good a christiaÌ„ as any one For they attribute as much to the bokes ordinances of men as to the Canonicall bookes whereupon we oughte to consider that albeit the Prophets and Apostles were men yet notwithstanding there is greate difference betwene them and those that came after them For we are certayne that they spake by the spirit of God and that God hath not suffered any errour to be mingled in their writinges because that he woulde they shoulde be geuen and left to vs for most certayne rules wherby to examine all other doctrines There is yet an other matter besyde this which is well worthye to be noted To wit that if any of those by whom it hath pleased God to be serued in this woorke haue chaunced to committe any faulte in their office the spirite of God hath not hidden it but hath manifestly declared it to the end the men shoulde not so be moued with the authoritie of suche personages that they shoulde followe lies in the steed of the truth and vice in the steede of vertue We haue an euident example hereof in Nathan the Prophet who without hauing demaunded i. Sam. 7 at the mouth of the Lord sayd of his owne onely authoritie and proper councell to Dauid that he shoulde builde the Lordes house and temple wherfore he was rebuked and corrected immediatly the next nyght following by the Lorde who commaunded him to declare the contrarye to Dauid We may also alledge the example of the Prophet which was sent into Beth-el and was kylled by the Lyon i. kings 17 Iob in Iere. xx i. Kings xix Ionas 2 Gal. 2 and that of Iob and of Ieremie who cursed the day of their byrth and also that of Hely and of Ionas so many faults of S. Peter and especially that for the whiche S. Paule reproued him I leaue vntouched a number of others such lyke Now it standeth not so at this present with vs ne yet with the auncient doctors that were before vs. For seing that God woulde that thys rule shoulde be obserued in hys church it coulde not otherwise be but that it must be appoynted by a number of bookes certayne or ells there woulde neuer haue beene any ende Seing then that the Lorde hath once appoynted and allowed thys rule we maye compare vnto it neyther booke nor Councell what so euer they bee For if since the time of the Apostles there hath neuer beene man of what holines or knowledge so euer he were that hath so perfectelye and wel written and taughte as the Prophettes and Apostles didde without faylinge in anye one thinge â–ª wee maye not thincke that it is otherwise in their Councelles and Sinodall statutes then it is in their bookes For those that write such bookes be the very self and same men by whom the Councells are celebrated and holden vnto whom their aduises and opinions are spoken euen as they are couched in their bookes Wherefore they may as wel erre in the one as in the other we must also knowe that the most holy and perfecte men in deede haue not all the giftes of God neyther continuallye nor in all ages ne yet in all things no not those giftes in dede which are geuen vnto them but that GOD doth reueale manye thynges to others and at other tymes ¶ VVhat rule S. Augustine geueth concerning Councells and the vvritinges of the auncient Fathers T. SEing it is so it is very nedeful that we haue some certayne rule wherwith to guide vs in these matters D. I doe thinke that we can not doe better nor follow a better rule when any of these things come in question then to followe the maner of proceding that S. Augustine did vse with Maximine Bishop of the Arrians which would arme himself with the Councell of Arimine againste the conclusion that was made and confyrmed by the holy fathers touching the diuinitie of our Lorde Iesus Christ in the Councell of Nice by the authoritie of the truth as it is sayd and hy the truth of authoritie Tom. 6. Lib. 3. I may not now sayeth he alledge the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councel of Arimine as for a preiudice neyther am I bounde to the authorite of the one nor thou to the authoritie of the other Let vs debate the one matter with the other the one cause with the other the one reason with the other by the authoritye of the Scriptures not by proper and particular witnesse of euery man but by indifferent to vs both Which thing he hath also written in other places as concerning To Paul Epist 112 To Hic 29 Epist the authoritie of the Canonicall bookes agreeth very well with this I will not saith he that thou embrace myne authoritie to the end thou shouldest thinke it necessarie to beleue any thing because that I haue spokeÌ„ it but that thou beleue the Canonicall Scriptures And againe I confesse to thy charitie that I haue learned to beare that honour and reuerence to the onely bookes of the Scriptures which are called Canonicall that I doe beleue assuredlye that no one of the authors of them hath in any one iote of his writinges erred And iâ—â—â—diatlye after he sayth But I read yâ— others in such 〈…〉 what excellencie of holines and doctrine so euer be 〈…〉 I thinke not that which they saye to bee true because that they were of that opinion but because that I am perswaded that that whiche they speake is agreeing to the truth eyther by the Canonicall authors or els by apparaunt reason This is his manner of writing to Saint Hierome And agayne thou seest here howe S. Augustine submitteth the writings of the auncients and the CouÌ„cels to the worde of God and to the determinations therof conteyned in the holy Scriptures and maketh it iudge aboue all T. I do finde the aduise of S. Augustine very good but me thincketh there are other things to be considered in that conference and difference of the auncient Doctors and determinations of the lawfull Councels whereof I woulde gladlye heare the resolution But because that we haue entreated of manye good poyntes touchyng thys matter of Councells it seemeth to me very good for this present hers to make an ende to the end I may haue some little tyme to call to my remembraunce
with Ma 18. 28 you to the end of the worlde if he promes to be in the myddest of two or three by more apparant reason ought we to beleue that he is in the middest of a whole Councel D. But we must note vpon what conditions he promiseth to bee among them First he sayth that if we do agree together vpō the earth if we be of one accorde of one consent of one hart and of one spirite if we be carefull to kepe vnitie of spirite throughe the band of peace if we be one body and one spirite as we ar called into one hope of our vocation as there Eph. 4. is one Lord one fayth and one Baptisme one God and father of al. And besides this if we be gathered together in his name to wit in his vertue and force and not in the vertue and power of mē for his honor and glori and not for ours neither yet for our ambitiō for the edificatiō of his Churche and the health of poore soules not for our profite aduaūcement but wishing veritie to haue the victorie and not we now let vs see if it be easie to obserue all these condicions what hope we may haue in our tyme of a Councell that shall obserue all these pointes without the whiche in dede he can not be called a Councell but rather a Synagoge of Sathā and can bring no commoditie to Christendome but rather hurte and destruction how is it possible to haue him such an one as he ought to be consideryng that those whiche should procure it feare nothyng more then to haue a Councel such an one as he ought to be T. It is easie to iudge by that that hath ben already sayd ¶ Hovve that the holy Ghost is neither subiect nor bounde to any kinde of person or estate D. THere is yet one thyng more very well worthy to bee noted whiche is that our Lord Iesus Christe did not say when a generall Councell shal be gathered together or all the estates of Christendome or the Pope the Cardinals and Bishops or els a great assemble shall be had I will be in the middest of them but he sayd he would be in the middest of them yea although they wer but two or three so that they were gathered together in his name In the whiche he doth playnly declare that he will be bounde neither to menne yet to estates neither yet to the multitude but how smal so euer the nomber be of what estate so euer the men be he will be in the middest of them prouided that they come together as they ought to do For all though the promesse of Iesus Christ be made to his whole Churche yet doth it appartaine in no wise to hipocrites false Pastors and false Christians whiche are not in any wise true mēbers of the same whiche is the body of Iesus Christ but are members of Sathan and of his Synagoge And therfore onely must it extend to the true members of the Churche among whome these thynges may be practised which S. Paul setteth forth to the Churche of the Corinthes sayng let two or three Prophetes speake and let the rest iudge And if any thyng be reuealed i. Cor. iiii to any other of the assistantes let the first holde hys peace There is no man but may easily vnderstād that this cā not be obserued but in the true Church of Iesus Christ among those that haue the gift of the spirit of God which is not gyuen to carnal men and straungers to Christian doctrine but to such as are spirituall and those whiche call vpō the name of God in truth for the spirituall man may iudge ◠Cor. ii of spirituall thynges and not the carnal how is Christ then in the middest of his and doth assiste thē by his holy spirite in so much as they are gathered together in his name other wise he will be in no companie although the whole worlde were gathered together with all her pompe if it be not assēbled in the name of Iesus to such end as hath ben already declared Wee haue a manifest example by the small assemblees of the Apostles and of the primitiue Churche and by those of the great Synagoge of Bishops of Priestes of Scribes and Phariseis and of the Councels of the Iewes for it is written of such It shall be gyuen to euery man that Math. xx◠Ose iiii hath and he shal become plentiful but he that hath nothing euen that whiche he hath shall be taken from him And in Ose bycause thou hast refused the knowlege I haue also refused thee to the end thou shouldest not sacrifice to me and bycause thou hast forgoten the law of thy God I will also forget thy children And therfore he sayth yf you abyde still in my worde you shall be my disciples and shall knowe the Iohn xvii◠truth Then he promiseth not to be among them whiche by a false title shal be assēbled in his name to gyue new lawes and ordinaunces to the Churche concernyng Religion but to obserue and kepe those whiche he hath gyuen and to vse the keis which she hath receiued of him in such sort as he him selfe hath ordeined For the Church nedeth none other lawes but euen those which she hath receiued of him and therfore math 16. 1◠the Councell of Gangers hath accursed all those which continue not in the law of the Lord and do dayly make new ordinaunces T. This is very reasonable and doth well agree with that whiche is written of the Lord happy are those Psalm cxi◠whiche continew without spot in the way whiche walke in the law of the Lord happy are they which do enquire of the testimonies of the same D. And therefore Christ doth say searche you the Scriptures yf any man do loue me he will Iohn v Iohn xiiii i. Tim. iiii kepe my worde And S. Paul to Timothe Geue attendance vnto readyng T. These are very good aduertisementes ¶ VVhat assembles the faithfull do make and of the auncient Decrees concernyng the celebration of Councels D. IF there were no question but to holde Councels and Synodes among the faithfull whiche haue professed the Gospell and to gather them together to agree them yf they haue any difference among them as there was in the primitiue Churche in certayne pointes bycause the one did not well vnderstand the other it were but an easie matter as it was for the apostles their disciples but that could not content the world Such meetinges and assembles are very good to entertaine the Churches in peace and in the vnion of the doctrine and of the Christian discipline for that cause it was decreed in the v. Canon of the Councell of Nice that their should be yearely in euery prouince two Councels of Bishops the one a litle before Lent the other about the Autumne which thing is now no more obserued in the Popish Churche then are other good thy
of the God of the earth whiche gouerneth that Councell by his holy spirit albeit it he remayn stil enclosed and hiddeÌ„ in the secret chamber of his brest and harte and of his authorised Apostles vntill the tyme conuenient Then his Legates whiche are the first borne of his children and creatures declare the will of their holy father and their God T. Here is a goodly order of procedyng ¶ Of the prudence that is required in the disputations of the Councels of the Papistes and hovve daungerous it is for those that behonest to be there D. IN the meane tyme it behoueth those that dispute to haue good regarde in what maner and forme they frame their argumentes silogismes and how they propone their disputacions For if they do not conclude accordyng to the maner forme and shape of that conclusion whiche is already made betwene the holy father and his Legats or if they cast not their conclusion in the same moulde they will forth with gyue them to vnderstand that they are not sene at all in that Dialectica and Logicke whiche is required of them Wherof it foloweth that either their conclusions are despised as those of vayne men whiche speake in the aire or els if they do somewhat presse or touche the honor of that God whiche raigneth in that same Councel the daunger is very great for those that shall make any such coÌ„clusions For afterwards they must nedes of force dispute with fagots executioners and fire For that is the last refuge whereunto these worthy pillers of mother holy Churche haue their recourse the God in whom they haue greatest hope to witte the God of the Chaldees and Persians as we haue sene by experience in the persons of Iohn Hus and Hierosme of Pragne at the Councell holden at Constance about an huÌ„dred or sixe score yeares passed For he that agreeth not to the conclusion of that Antichrist and of his spirite the same doth sinne agaynste the holy Ghost wherefore the sinne is not to be forgeuen there may be neither Pardon nor Indulgence found wherby to purge the Church sauing onely by fire T. Surely here is a goodly procedyng and very meete for the Vicar of Iesus Christe and his Apostles ¶ Of the resolutions and conclusions of the Papisticall Councels and vvhat personages they are that haue voyces in theÌ„ and vvhat scoole masters the Bishops haue there vvhat order they do there obserue D. NOw when the disputacioÌ„ is ended they must needes come to the resolucion and finall conclusion whiche is not done openly nor by the consent of all but is done in the Conclaue in a secrete place where none are admitted to come but the Popes Legates the Patriarches the Bishops and the generals of the Monckes These do there conclude what soeuer pleaseth them without hauyng any regarde at all to any thyng that hath ben debated of in the Councell but to that wherunto euery one of them pretendeth those who haue seÌ„t them thether And for so much as the greatest part in maner of the Cardinals and Bishops that do there assemble together to make vp a nomber are ofteÌ„tymes but well fed and fatte beastes shodde and horned fatte Asses Mules loden with benefices they must haue some kepers Muletters to gouerne and to direct them And bycause they are in such matter much lyke vnto litle children they haue nede of scoole masters to instruct teache them to supplie their ignoraunce T. And who be those Asse kepers muletters that thou speakest of D. They are often tymes a certayne nomber of hooded Moonckes and bellye Dyuines whiche often tymes are in maner as ignoraunte as their scollers as veri Asses Mules as the Asses Mules that they gouerne lead sauing that the one sorte is more heuyly laden theÌ„ the other with benefices that the one sort haue a litle more sence knowledge the others more farmes Lordships but their coÌ„sciences are all one T. Then are these meÌ„ to the Cardinals Bishops in stede of the holy ghost by whose inspiratioÌ„ they speake being instructed by theÌ„ D. It is true but this holy Ghost is but a litle portioÌ„ a depeÌ„dance of the vniuersall spirite of the holy father of the whiche the Legates are filled For all these hooded belly diuines pretend none other thing but to fish for some Mitre Crosse some good be nefice or fatte prebend wherfore they are there as kitchine dogges wayting for some soope These are the dumme dogges of whom the Prophet Esay doth speake T. Then Esay xâ—â— they do not greatly care whether they do barcke at the wolfe and byte him or no. D. They are not there for any such purpose for their beyng there is onely to flatter to please and to procure their worldly honor and profite and to haue their portion of the pray whiche those wolues do gette And therfore they teach the Nouices to set their sayl accordyng to the wind which they seedoth blow and accordyng to the spirite by the whiche they know that the Legates are gouerned those who sent thyther both theÌ„ and the Bishops to the end that there might be there agremeÌ„t of spirites that all those particular spirites might agree resolue with that vniuersall spirite which doth there preside wherfore they haue not at any tyme so great dissention and diuision but that they may well say in their conclusions It hath semed good to the holy Ghost and to vs to witte that holy Ghost whiche presideth ouer them ¶ Of the matters of discorde that may be in the Councels of the Papistes of the causes of the agreement that is amoÌ„g them hovv daungerous it is for those that do maintaine the cause of the truth T. I Thincke for all that they haue not alwayes the best agremen of the world among them D. Yf there be any discorde of opinion among theÌ„ it is not coÌ„monly for any matter that concerneth the honor of God the edification of hys Churche the saluacion of the Christian people but rather for their ambitions and honours preheminences benefices particuler affaires For in maner al those that come thyther are assured the one of the other and there is nothing in the world that they haue lesse care for then for God for the honor of his Church and the saluation of their owne soules of the Christian people wherfore in this respecte they feare not one an other For there are seldome any other there but Scribes Phariseis Saduces HerodiaÌ„s Hipocrites and Epicures Glottons Dronckardes Whoremasters Sodomites Players HuÌ„ters with such like very ignoraunt in diuinitie of very filthy and detestable life should be al excoÌ„municated accursed and depriued from their offices if they should be iudge according to the rigor of the auncieÌ„t Councels of their owne decrees whiche do excoÌ„municate Ex concil Carthag Dis 23. Qui
Episcopns dist 24 c Nullu◠accursse also iudge al such men vnworthy of any Ecclesiasticall office And if there be any other they are very thin sowen There are very few among thē that are accompted for heretiques as was Ioseph of Aramathie in the Councel of the Iewes bycause that he would not consent to the death of Iesus Christ And if that by aduenture there be any one from whom their happeneth any litle word to escape better Hier in Mich dist 3 c. eccl 5 Luke xxiii Iohn vii then frō the rest how litle so euer it smell of the smoke of the truth y◠man y◠shall haue pronounced it shall be receiued among thē as Nicodemus was amoong the Iewes how litle a word soeuer he speake in the fauor of Iesus Christ he shal be in great daunger either to be banished from that holy cōpanie depriued frō his benefices that at the least or els yf nede be he shall be in daunger of the fire or els to swallow certaine pilles of a very hard digestion whiche shall much anoye his stomacke and cause him to loose his voice And I know that there are in the world Godly men who can testifie in dede how they haue wrought in such matters not many yeares passed and can say of all that hath ben done euen to this present in the Councell of Trent but how so euer it be if they can not easily agree in their Cōclaue and that there be any one that will not forthwith franckly agree to that whiche that holy father will haue cōcluded there the Legates dare boldely say to such as shall stand agaynst it Conclude as you list but the matter shall passe in that sort as it is said that the Cardinall of Monte whiche is now remounted by meanes of the Papacie and called Pope Iulie did lately at the Councell of Trent And bycause he was so faithfull a Legate and that he hath not onely in that but in all other thinges shewed him selfe worthy of the seate in the whiche hee nowe sitteth it hath framed better with him then with others whiche haue ben estemed men of to much honesty to be in such a companie of whō some haue bene glad to flee and others haue had gyuen them for theyr recompense drogues of very hard digestion ¶ Of the practises of the Pope to haue the determination and conclusions of the Councels and the places vvherein they are holden at his vvill and commaundement T. HEre are very daungerous practises D. There are yet moe amōg the whiche there is one chiefly that helpeth to bryng the conclusion to what passe so euer they pretend whiche is not vnsittyng nor vnmeete for their purpose T. Whiche is it D. It is that if the holy father be aduertised that it is to be feared that such conclusion as he would haue should be hindred albeit that be not much to be feared considering that which hath ben already spoken he will forthw t make new Bishops as many more thē shall nede to cause the matter to passe more surely on his side he will take simple Curates Chapellains simple Mooncks he will make them Bishops in hast the one of Nazareth the other of Hebron y◠other of Beethlē the other of an other title all wtout any Bishopricke they shal come as thicke as flyes to make a nōber of voyces they shall haue pensions wages of two or three crownes a moneth as scolers or souldiers to entertayne thē there duryng the Coūcell And if the place be anything suspected not fitte for his purpose that he haue a desire to haue the Coūcell put ouer to some other place which may be more for his purpose he wil haue immediatly ready some well learned Phisition if nede require who shall haue his ready framed reasons to shewe how that the ayre is not good in that place but it is daungerous to such as shall continew long there that it shall be better to appointe some other place as it was practised not long ago T. By that that I can vnderstande all is done there of purpose The whole is nothyng els but a very Comedie or playe in the whiche the blinde are set vpon highe scaffoldes to leade the blinde to playe their part accordyng to their scrolle cedule which is giuen them D. Behold here their maner of working ¶ Of the ignoraunce of the Popishe Bishops and hovv farre they are of from that that the vvorde of God and the auncient Canons require of them T. I Find it very straūge that the Bishops which be there assēbled as leaders of the blind reformers of religiō to direct and instruct the poore Christiā people haue nede thē selues of scoole masters other blind guides to lead thē D. This doth not agree with that name of a bishop which they bear Actes xx the which admonisheth thē that their office is to be watch mē ouer that Lords flock It is not according to that admonitiō which S. Paul giueth thē saying take good hede to your selues to the flocke ouer the which the holy Ghost hath appoynted you watchmē kepers to gouerne fede that Church of God which he hath purchased with his bloud T. They haue their worthy aūswere ready for that to witte that they be not Bishops of that tyme nor such as they were to whom S. Paul spake in this passage and that they ar not appointed by the holy Ghost to fede the flocke of Iesus Christ D. In that thou sayest very truth for they ar feders Pastors onely to fede thē selues as wer the false Pastors of whō the Lord cōplayneth by Ezechiell Exec. iii Wherefore they nede no greate knowledge nor yet to obserue the Decrees Canons of Pope Hilarie the first of Alexāder the ii of Innocent the vi of Boniface the iii. of Gelase of Zozine which haue ordeined that none should be receined into any such office vnlesse he were very wise knowē Plat. in vis Innoc. Rom. Que. 16. dist 36. c. illiterato c. Qui eccle to be of good life doctrine and that benefices of the Churche should not be giuen vnder payne of cursing neither for fauor nor gifts nor to any other then to men of such learning and life as is required for such offices and that the shepe of Christ must be kept by their own Pastors and not by hirelinges and Vicars T. We should finde a great nomber accursed if such Decrees should take place ¶ Of the finall conclusion and resolution of the Councell of the Papistes and the solempnitie of the daye vvhereupon it is done D. BUt we haue left the best of the play vntouched which afterward is turned into a Tragedie to witte y◠Sessions in the whiche that declaratiō of all the conclusiōs which they make in the Cōclaue is opēly published in the Church T. I pray thee thē go thorow make