Priests GEORGE GIFFORD To condemne overthrow read prayer ye bring as the ground or foundation of al your matter this Sentence God is a Spirit to be worshipped in Spirit Iob. 4. This Scripture indeed is cleare strong to cut downe al carnal worship as disgreeing from the nature of GOD And if any maintaine that the very bodily action of reading is the worship of God it may fitly be alleadged against them c. IOHN GREENWODS Answer Wisdome is Iustified of her Children IT is agreed upon consented unto on both sides that seeing God is a spirit onely requireth such to worship him as worship him in spirit truth all carnall worship is cut downe hereby of what sort soever as disagreeing from the nature of God that all fantastical devises of men namely whatsoever is not warranted in his worde is carnall worship a wearisomnes unto him lothsome in his sight So that no man ought to intermedle attempt or practise any thing in shew of worship wher of they have not sure grounde of his worde For even our God is a consuming fire Now to put away all your bodily distinctions and earthly cavils I still affirme as I have proved the stinting imposing mens writings upon publique assemblies to have them read over by number and stint or any other way as a worship of God instead of true invocation is a meere devise of man so carnall worship as also all other reading of mens writings publiquely or privatly in this abuse for praying to God Yet say you to apply this Scripture Iohn 4.22.23 in this manner against read prayer is frivolous where I appeale to all mens consciences for the weight therof It is frivolous you say except I can prove that a man cannot pray by the spirit of God with sighes and groanes upon a booke or when prayer is uttered after a prescript forme c.. At the first step you goe about to alter the question All our prayers ought to be uttered after a prescript forme even that perfect rule and forme our Saviour gave to his Disciples and all posterities But this is nothing to the matter For the other which is nothing but a begging of the question I alleaged certayne reasōs to this effect First that those sighes groanes in reading instead of praying were not of faith seeing that those sighes grones that proceed of faith minister matter to pray without a booke 2. That you did but barely affirme the question in calling it prayer by the spirit when one doth read seing reading is not praying at all for as I then alleadged to invocate the name of God in spirit is by the worke of the spirit to bring fourth of our hearts prayer to God which is then in truth when it agreeth to Gods word But reading is another matter namely a receaving of instruction into the heart from the booke Out of the first Mr. GIFFORD maketh men beleeve he hath fetched two heresies the one a perfection of faith the other that faith cannot be joyned unto or stand with anie outward helpes for the encrease therof Litle marveile he found so many heresies in our whole writings that could finde two or three in my first reason but that you may remember your self better though you had two yeares to consider I will bring the wordes before you againe if peradventure you may have grace to call backe your self I said if the sighes grones in that kinde of praying were of faith it would minister matter without a booke this sentence I may confirme by many testimonies of scripture that no perverted spirit can gaine say or resist the scripture teacheth us every where that in praying the spirit onely helpeth our infirmities no other helpes mentioned or can be collected in the present action of prayer through the Scripture He hath sent into our hearts the spirit of his Sonne crying Abba Father we beleeve therfore we speake Yet here is not any shew of perfection of faith but of the contrary praying for our wantes But this may be gathered that God onely accepteth the fruits of his owne spirit in prayer and requireth no more of any but that every one according to the proportion of faith pray unto him as occasion in them requireth Now to conclude that because in praying we neede not a book to speake for us when the heart it self book of our conscience speaketh with God that therefore sayth never needeth instruction but is perfect were slanderous false and senselesse The cause then of these heresies proceed hereof that your sel fe Mr. Gifford would needs frame two syllogismes in the moodes of your malice constraine the propositiō of the present action in praying to a generall sentence of all times and actions though both our question here was of the very action of praying in the conclusion of that very point within six lines after this you ad these wordes Even in the time of their begging at Gods hands so that these heresies must be Mr Giffords and not myne seeing they are found to be coyned of his idle brayne and godles heart only to defame the trueth But say you the most part are ignorant weak short of memorie c. therfore need all helps to stir them up to pray c. where by your own confession reading is not praying but a help to stir up to pray And even hereupon al our errours arise that you cannot discerne the difference of spiritual gifts with the distinct use of thē We doubt not but before prayer al the daies of our life we have neede of helps of instruction to praye aright for the fitnes of the mind bodie often fasting reading meditating c. are great helpes to go before to humble our selves in praying but in the present action of prayer whē the heart is talking with God the eies hands c. with attention lift up to heaven all the powers of our soules bodies conversant with God to take a booke read cannot be called in this action a help but a confounding of the mind of Gods ordinances and a doing we know not what though before and after it be an exeellent meanes ordeyned of God to instruct us to pray and al other dueties As for the conformation you talke of where I alledged that a troubled minde is the penne of a readie writer therefore needeth not a booke to speake for it in the action of praying By troubled minde I understood such a minde as is presently moved with the sight of some sinne or urged by other occasion a broken spirit a broken contrite heart not such a minde as in dispayre or doubt is perplexed and that the heart which is moved in faith with present occasion to cal upon God is the penne of a readie writer that is hath matter and wordes enough without a book to utter his own wantes we may reade throughout the Psalmes My throte
things in the Lorde and if they commaund vs anie thing contrary to the lawe of God we then patientlie suffer without resistance or rebellious thoughtes The freedome then we have to speake of here which Christ had purchased for vs is first that triumphe ouer Hell Deathe and damnation through the merites of Christ apprehended by faith wayted for in hope Rom. 8. Secondly that because we were sonnes by election he giveth vs the spirit of adoption and sanctification whereby we mortifie the fleshe have power and dominion over sinne that it shall never reigne in vs more vnto condemnation repēting dayly of our trespasses craving pardon for our hidden sinnes and secret faultes Thirdly we are through the same spirit and worde of trueth delivered from all subiection of Antichist of the false Church false ministerie false government etc. And they that have not this fredome are not by outward profession the servauntes of Christ Furder we have freedom from all traditious of men that seing we are bought with a price we are no longer servants of men to be in bondage to anie beggarly rudimentes or devises of men but in all peaceable manner to worship and serve God within the limites of our callings according to the word of God as it is reuealed vnto vs We have freedome to speake the trueth with all boldnes though all men should inhibite vs we would not haue the doctrine limited stinted bought and sould for Iewish tythes or mercenarie stipendes We have freedome to separate from such false Prophets as yourself to come out of Babel etc. And in the true Church to reprove and withstand anie sinne or traditions of men in due order only to be guided governed by Christes lawes and ordinances In all this I trust you shall not find any Anabaptistrie in the freedom we professe this is the truth of the Gospell wherby we are made free Thus then we still affirme that they which stand in open known bondage to sinne are the servants of sinne and not of Christ till they repent by outward profession Furder that all which stand members of your parish assemblies stand not members of CHRIST by outward profession but in bondage to a false and Antichristian ministery government worship etc. and the bond woeman and her sonne must be cast out Furder for all liturgies and other devises of men besides the canonicall Scriptures and lively graces of his Spirit we hold they ought not to be brought into the publique assemblies nor imposed vpon mens conscience But if anie will write such or reade such let it be for their private vse as all other mens writtings we despise not any directions by word or writting that may furder vs anie way to the practize of Gods ordinances yet may they nether be imposed vpon mens consciences not be made a part of Gods worship The Lord therfore that hath thus far far fourth discouered the chaff and mift of Antichrist delusions euen to babes and sucklings publish the glorious light of his blessed Gospel that the peopel may see the counterfeit iuglinges of all such false prophets and come out from amongst them that you may be ashamed of your execrapale wares and forsake your Romish Priesthoode and give glory to God that yet offereth grace Amen Christs vnworthie witnes for the truth of his Gospell IOHN GREENWOOD 9 Other Arguments to prove that all set formes of prayer to be used for prayer are unlawfull 1. WE finde that all the holy men of God according to their present need occasion used to pray in the spirit through the helpe of the Holy Ghost which God hath shed in the hearts of all his Children without reading or saying by rote any nūber of words and for this we have plentifull Examples in Abraham Isaak Iacob c. 2. Not any prescript Leiturgy can possibly be an ordinance of Christ because the Church without it may perfectly and entirely worship God I say performe all the parts of holy and spirituall worship this appeares by the constant and generall practice of all the primitive Churches who truly worshipped the Lord many yeares before any such read stinted service was devised or imposed 3. This external meanes and manner of worshipping God in prayer is no where found in the written word by the prescript whereof he is to be worshipped whatsoever the Iewes Fable of Ezra or the Papists of S. Iames or S. Peter Yea I doe to the contrarie affirme that it did not seem good to the Apostles the last penmen of the Holy Ghost that any certaine formes should be repeated or read out of a prayer booke For if it had they would have given commandment to the Churches for the practice thereof 4. Reading of prayer in the act of prayer is directly contrary to that act and nature of prayer For in prayer we doe poure out matter to weet the holy conceptions of our minde from within to without that is from the heart to God On the contrarie in reading we doe receive and admitt matter from without to within that is from the booke into our heart Ergo c. 5. The stinted and devised formes doe quench the spirit of prayer and this appeares in that men are so strictly tyed unto them as till they stint be out the spirit which the Lord gives his children may not suggest one thought or word otherwise Neither when that is out any more then what next followes in the prescribed prayers and this is contrary to 1 Cor. 12 7. 6. We finde it promised that under the Gospell the spirit should be plentifully poured out which he dayly graciously performeth in furnishing his children with spiritual gifts who accordinglie pray or at least all may not with prescript words but with such as the spirit gives them utterance God preparing their heart and bending his eare 7. The truth brings forth no absurditie but this doth For Example the spirit sayth the Apostle speaking of all Christians helpeth our infirmities for we know not what to pray as we ought Yes Paul with your leave right well for we have in our Leiturgie what wee ought to pray word for word and these things we can aske whether the spirit be present or no 8. As it were a ridiculous thing for a Child when he should aske of his Father bread fish or any other thing to read it to him out of a paper So is it for the Children of God to read unto God their Requests even a most foolish and riduculous thing 9. As the reasons published to the world against the reading of the Apocrypha bookes in Churches will serve as much and as well to condemne all devised and imposed formes of prayer So likewise the arguments brought against kneeling before the bread and wine in the act of receiving will prove that to fall downe before the common prayer booke is every way as superstitious sinfull a thing And so much the reader shall finde certaine if he will indifferently compare the things together FINIS Rom. 8.26 Gal 4.6 2. cor. 4.13 Psalm 51 17 Psalm 42 43. I. Sam. 1 17 Psal. 119 Rev. 2. 11. 1 Tim. 3. 15. Other foundatiō can no mā laye c. Gal. 3. 15 Heb. 2 3 4. 9. 14 Mat. 5. 18. 2 Timot. 3 15. 16. 17 Rev. 22. 18. 19. 2. Pet. 1. 20. 1 Cor. 12 7. Iam. 4.14 Rom 8.7 and 11 34.1 Cor. 2.16 3.19 1 Tim. 4. 5. Act. 16.13.13 Tim. 2.1 34 5. Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 22.18.19.2 Tim. 1.13 1 Tim. 6 14 1 Cor 2.16 and 2 20. Mr. Barrowes refutation discovery etc. Rev. 24 9 10.11.12 Esa. 52.11 Ierem. 51 6 45. Mat. 116 Rom. 8.26
More vvorke for PRIESTS OR AN ANSWERE TO GEORGE GIFFORDS pretended defence of Read Prayers and devised Leitourgies comprised in the first part of his booke Intituled A short Treatise against the Donatists of England Wherein Is proved that the serving of God in such away and manner is a superstitious and vaine worship Written By JOHN GREENWOOD Christs faythfull Martyr Here-unto Is added by another man many other arguments against stinted service and booke prayer Luk. 16. 15. That which is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God Printed in the yeere 1640. The Preface MY first writing being about that spiritual exercise of prayer and true invocation of Gods reverend name whereby the distressed soule of man loaden with the burden of sinne compassed also about with so many deceitfull enimies continual assaults of Satan rebellion of the flesh entisements of the world etc. seeketh daylie help of God the Father giver of all good giftes having thorough Iesus Christ free accesse by the direction of his holy spirit for all occasions to unburden it self of whatsoever grief or occasion of thankes it is moved with I ought stil and by Gods assistance shall keepe me in the meeknes of the spirit not withstanding his unchristian railinges slanders reproches against me the truth I then shewed that no other prayer could utter and ease the severall occasions distresses of this conscience and that no other mans writing could speake for this soule unto God but the heart and mouth of him that prayeth for himself or is chosen the mouth of many uttering to God his or their mindes for their present wātes or occasion urgeth and the spirit giveth utterance And I further proved that onelie this prayer pleaseth God and is grounded on faith to this effect I brought many reasons out of Gods worde admiring the ignorance of this age wherin having had the gospell of Christ thus many years in our owne language to search and try all things by whole congregations doe make no other praier to God thē reading over a certeine number of wordes upon a booke from yeare to yeare moneth to moneth day to day c. the same matter and words as they were stinted even out of that Portuis englished out of Antichrists masse booke besides private reading of menswritings instead of praying And seing this counterfeit shew of worship and pretended prayers was made common marchandize in every assemblie by this Antichristian preisthood and that al men every where were compelled to bowe downe hereunto and to offer up such counterfeit sacrifices I perceaved the first principle of Religion which is to invocate the name of the true God through the meditation of Christ in spirit and truth with heart and voyce for our present wantes according to the will of God was never yet sincerely taught by these time serving Priests But as an agreable service to the humors of earthlie minded men which have not the spirit of God this ware was thrust upon al people They wel knowing that such a ministery and such a Church of wordlings could never have stood without such a Samaritan worship Egyptian calf and like earthlie devises to counterfeit a Religion al men inclyned to some And long have I heard this pretended worship inveyed against by many sometimes zealous for the errours and confused order thereof Yet could I not heare anie to sett downe or teach which was the true prayer that only pleased God manie contriving divers formes of wordes as though they had knowen the heart of man counselled thē to reade them day unto day yeare unto yeare at evening morning dinner supper c. by portion measure and stint as an offering to God what state soever the soule was in not teaching the difference betweene reading upon a booke and prayer unto God all the tyme So that true and only prayer hath not beene taught all this tyme those that knewe how to pray aright neglect it this reading being most easie as they thinke and they aptest therunto compelled in the publique assemblies thus to mocke with God after the manner of the papists mattins true zeale no where founde but in the persequuted remnant These my first writings caryed abroode by such as desired true instructiō and willing to make others partakers of such benefits as God imparted unto them it fell into Mr GIFFORDS hand Who as it seemeth being a marchaunt of such ware fynding the gaine of the priesthood to depend here upon or as he saith the peace and uniformitie of the Church made head unto it and that not with purpose as the fruite of his labour sheweth to edifie others but standing himself a minister to this Liturgie having made shipwrack of that conscience he sometimes was thought to have with all bitternes of spirit and carnal wisdome having no more savour of grace in his writings then there is taste in the white of an egge fleeth upō me with uncharitable raylings slanders c. And loadeth not only me but all the faithfull that walke by the rule of Gods worde with opprobrious titles of Donatists Brownists Anabaptists Heretiques Schismatiques seditious foolish frantick c. to bring not onely us but the truth of God into contempt with our Sovereigne Prince and all that feare God for he ceaseth not with laying al reproches he can devise upon our persons as one of those Locusts Rev. 9. whose similitudes are like unto horses prepared to battell whose faces like men but their teeth as the teeth of Lyons But also perverteth blaspheameth by all meanes defaceth the truth offered to him Welseing the natural mā perceiveth not the things of the spirit of God I wil speak not here of the giftes of the spirit but of the grace of God which sanctifieth the same many having Charismata that have not Charin And seeing I am alreadie thus rent Gods truth delivered by me troden under his feete I will followe the councell of Salomon who forewarneth me that he which reproveth a skorner receaveth to himself shame and he that rebuketh the wicked himself a blot And so tourne me from him leaving him to the consideration of his owne words where he sayeth in his Epistle to the reader He that seemeth most zealous in Religion and refrayneth not his tongue hath but bitternes in his heart in stead of heavenly Zeale And though nothing els can be looked for at their bandes that are Apostate from that light they have sometymes themselves published of vvhich sorte the worlde was never more full yet for the good of Gods chosen scattered abroade and for the defence of Gods trueth I cannot holde my tongue And for the more playnenes I will answeare as to him though I minde not to have anie more to doe with him till God give him repentance Wishing grace by the direction of Gods holy spirit to him that readeth to weigh both sides uprightly and to follow the truth to his owne salvation JO GRENWOOD More works for
to the Apostles namely to use that prescript forme of prayer as the perfect patterne direction to all mens true prayers But you I trust will make difference betwixt a forme to all prayers and praying or prayer And here you vehemently urge me to answeare you before I see you conclude any thing from the place and so I should runne into follie to answeare a matter before I heare it In your first entrance of this discourse you were rounde in your Syllogismes by two at once to wraft my wordes and can find none for your self Yt seemes your conscience is witnes the matter would not hang together And me thinkes you had never more neede to have shewed what you would drawe from this place Luke 11. Seing I either mistooke you the last time or els you make a simple collection which was this Christ said to his Disciples when you pray say Our Father and not when you meditate say Our Father Now what would you conclude of this except as I said that Christ would not have them meditate that Scripture But this I perceave was not your meaning now I partlie thinke your Argument should be if the sworde were not broken in the sheath thus Christ commaunded his Disciples when they prayde to say Our Father c. therefore to be tyed to reade over or say by roate certaine wordes is lawfull praying For the first that our Saviour Christ tyed no man or commaunded none to say over those verie wordes when they prayde but to pray according to that form after that manner as Math. 6. I manifested in my first writing I. that our Saviour did not commaunde us to use those wordes 2. that Matth. 6. doth not keepe the same wordes nor that number of wordes which Luke 11. doth 3. that he did not say read these wordes when you pray or say these wordes by roate After all which reasons slilye passed away in both your answeres you come with your bare affirmation that he commaunded those wordes to be said over by roate or reading Yea a litle after you say it is false to say that he commanded not the verie wordes to he said over when we pray And you further conclude that because Christ commaunded his Disciples to say over those wordes therefore all mens writings in the forme of praier may be brought into the publique assemblies to be read for praier being agreable to the worde To which I answere that seing no mans writings are without errour it is pernitious and blasphemous doctrine you collect First because you make mens writings of equal authority with the forme of praier which Christ hath prescribed 2. for that you give men as much liberty and authority to frame and impose their Liturgies as Christ had to set downe a forme of praier he being Lord of the house The wickednesse of which collections you shall never be able to answere And because you here urge me thereunto I will make answeare to your two places of Scripture wherwith by false interpretation you deceave the simple which taken from you your matter is nothing but cavilling The places are these Luke 11. Num 6. and because the one explanes the other and your collections the same from both I will beginne with numbers 6.32 33.34 etc. Thus shall you bless the Children of Israell saying the Lord bless thee and keep thee etc. Here you say they were commaunded to use the verie wordes prescribed in all their blessings This I say is not true for the Hebrew worde is Coh Tebaracu thus shall you blesse wher the worde Coh is an adverb of similitude as we say after this manner which cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions This worde Coh is used throughout the Bible in this maner in all the Prophets when they say thus sayth the Lorde where the summe of their prophesies are onely recorded to us by the holy Ghost and not all the wordes Againe this blessing is used in the Psalmes and Chronicles in prayer for the people in manie other wordes Ely blessed Hanna in other wordes etc. And where in Luke 11.2 it is recorded that our Saviour Christ commaunded his Disciples when you pray say Our Father c. it is plaine by the doctrines following 4.5.6.8.11 verses that Christ tied no man to the verie wordes saying over for he teacheth them to aske their particular wants as a childe asketh breade or an egg of his Father also to importune the Lorde for our particular wants But to make this place more plaine the same holy Ghost in the 6. of Mathew 9. verse saith when you pray say thus Our Father etc. where the greek word houtos hath the same signification that the Hebrew worde Coh hath which is after this manner cannot be referred to the verie wordes saying over wher upon Mr. Calvin upon those wordes faith Noluit filius Dei prescribere quibus verbis utendum sit The Sonne of God would not prescribe what words we must use Now consider how falslie Mr Gifford hath interpreted these Scriptures to say the Priests were commaunded to use the verie wordes and that Christ commaunded to use the verie wordes As for his collections that therefore mens writings may be imposed upon publique assemblies by stint number to be prayde it is an intollerable error bringeth in all poopery Here I must call all men that reade this fruitlesse discourse to be witnes of Mr. Giffords abuse of his tongue to the defacing of Gods truth In his Epistle he proclaymed that I called all men Idolāters which you shall perceave to be his owne wordes and to that end I will breifly repeat it In my first writing I affirmed the reading imposed Liturgies by stint and limitation instead of true invocation as also all reading menswritings for praying to be idolatrie In his answere he said he could not see by what collour it could be called Idolatrie or maintayned out of Gods worde so to be but it seemes the penners of these things take every sinne against the first table of the Lawe to be Idolatrie if they doe so saith he and with all doe hold that no Idolater shal be saved then doubtlesse all are lost c. To this ignorant excursorie I answered that all false and devised worship by mans intention was Idolatrie as the first and second commandements did testifie And to admit all the breaches of the first table were not idolatrie yet reading of mens writings instead of praying must needs be idolatry seing it is a transgression of the second Commandement Further though I needed not have followed his emptie head even a cloude without water yet I proceeded to prove that no idolater could be saved but b y repentance for their knowne sinne and craving pardon with David for their hidden sinnes and secreet faults Moreover sayd I doe you thinke anie man is free from all inward and outward idolatrie seing we cannot keep one Commandement and in
prescript forme of prayer is a tradition bringing our libertie into hondage c. my reason was c is that the Lord by Moses prescribed a forme of blessing c. Num. 6 the Prophets in the Psalmes have prescribed manie formes of prayer Our Saviour Christ prescribed a forme of prayer c. JOHN GREENWODS Answer HEre is a greate storme yet nothing but wynde If you were in Caiphas his place you would either have rent your clothes for zeale or els condemne me before you vnderstand what I say Is it simple dealing do you thinke to say I hold it a bondage breaking our libertie for the Lord by Moses the Prophetes our Saviour Christ also to set downe a forme of praier or to prescribe a forme of praier Did you not see that the Minor Proposition speaketh of the reading for praing and not of the forme of praier Againe of the commandement wherby men are compelled to reade instead of praing Did you not see that these wordes brought into the publique assemblies did specifye the matter to be mens writings to be read in the assemblies as a worship yea invocation of Gods name which is a grosse mockery Not that ther is any Commandement to reade ouer those formes of praier mentioned by you for praing and so the Commandement so to reade them for praying is an abuse of them and a Commandement of men and not of God etc. But that much more odious it is to bring in mens writings into the publique assemblies is proved vnlawfull in the first argument and then to commit Idolatrie with them by reading them jnstead of praing and that to compell men by Commandement wher God had set no Commandement so to vse them was a bringing all men into bondage of popish traditions So that your common recitall of these places of Scripture is abuse of them and you do but palinodian cauere I thinke if you get St. I H O N S gospell about your necke as the Papists do you wil thinke you haue religion ynough The more fearfull is your Apostacy you proceede from euill to worse GEORGE GIFFORD About the Commaunding a prescript forme of prayer to be used our Church doth agree with all godly Churches yea the reformed Churches have and do practise the same here therefore I wish the reader to observe that you Brownists doe not only condemne the the Church of England but all the reformed Churches whatsoever and can be no other but Donatistes IOHN GREENWODS Answer I Trust your madnes will appeare to all men the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue he that cannot rule his tongue his Religion is in vayne Shall J in your heate be pressed with multitude of Churches then heare what the Lorde faith Thou shal not followe a multitude to do evill we have the word amongst vs we shall by that worde be either iustified or condemned Then either prove your matter from the scriptures or els give eare to the Scripture If those Churches you speake of bring mens writinges into the publique assemblies inforce them to be read for praying I would see their warrant we beleeve not because men say so or doe so but because God speaketh And where he speaketh all men must be silent You may accuse other countries as you wil knowe not their estate but your drudgery insteade of true worship is lothsome the priest with his massebooke the begger with his clapdish canuize over the Pater noster for their bellie which is your common worship with other trinckets We shal speake of a Liturgie in due place Here you breath out your accustomed lyes slanders railings First you terme us Brownists Donatists wheras I never conversed with the men nor their writings I dereft Donatus his heresies And if they had beene instruments to teach us anie truth we were not therfore to be named with their name we were baptised into Christs Browne is a member of your Church your brother and all Brownists do frequent your assemblies And here you wish the reader to consider that I condemne all reformed Churches do I condemne all Churches for reproving a sinne by Gods worde May not the true Churches if they were such err Did I affirme at anie time that they were no true Church that used read prayers remember your self you knowe who is the Father of such untruthes But because your Conscience bare witnesse you had wrongfully chardged me and in frome all true Christians you bring it in by necessary consequence thus you assi'me say you prescript formes of praier brought into the publique assemblies to be the changing the work of the Spirit into an idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie a deade letter quenching the Spirit c. and therefore most detestable But all reformed Churches receive and use it c. therefore You can reason well to bring the truth into contempt your moth is open and tongue whet as a sworde thereunto If the proposition be true drawe what consequence you will it is yours not mine if the doctrine be true it is Gods worde that giveth sentence against the sinne And if you have anie sparke of grace procure that we may decide the truth with other Churches Doth it follow that because imposing of mens writinges to be read for praying is an heynous sinne therefore they that use it are no Church If I should say so I should justlie be called an Anabaptist And here you accuse me to pleade for such a freedome in the Church that nothing receaued which is imposed by commaundement Abaddon is the Father of such Prophets Doth it follow that because we would have the Church free from all traditions of men which have no warrant in Gods worde that therefore we would not receave Gods ordinances by Commaundement That we ought to receave nothing by Commaundement in the worship of God which God hath not commaunded the second commaundement with the scriptures I have rehearsed are evident Deut. 5.32.33 Mat. 2 5.2.3 Gal. 4.9 Collof 2 20 But seing your self graueled considering all the world cannot lay a Commandement to bring their owne inventions into the assemblies wher God hath laide none but forbidden it you ranne to your former places of scripture to wrast them as before where your collections are but vaine repetions of that which hath been convinced before Moses the Prophets etc. prescribed formes of praiers therefore men now may thrust their writings into the publique assemblies Your Argument is denied and yet here is no warrant for the reading them over for praier G. GIFFORD The Church had power to expounde those prayers mentioned in the Scriptures to apply them to their severall necessities c. J. GREENWOOD If you meane by expounding the breaking of them up by doctrine vp and by doctrine and praier to applye them to the severall vses of the Church by lively voyce far be it from me to thinke otherwise But if you meane by expounding to make homilies vpon them or liturgies
God See if your Ordinarie will here be pleased with you Yet you would denie all this with the same breath by a shift saying The heart in moved when one heareth the prayer of the minister and presently sendeth fourth prayers together with him I trust you will not say that the heart of the hearer prayeth one thing and the Minister an other againe the praier of the minister is the prayer of the people by Gods ordinance whiles they think one thinge and are mert to one end for anoyding confusion one speaketh ye all pray togeather one thing But the minister may as well preach and pray or reade any chapter and praye as reade praiers and praye both in one action of the minde and voyce which were strange Your cavill then whether the heart may be moved and pray both at once is taken awaye seing you graunt reading and praying two severall excercises of the heart and voyce which cannot be performed at once with lively voyce The conclusion is then that either ye must fetch the matter out of your booke when you reade prayer and so do not pray for the particular wants wher with the heart is moued and pressed before you come or els you pray not with lively voyce at al when you read The Lorde then having taught vs to breake vp our owne hearts and powre fourth our petitions with heart and voyce give grace to al his people so to worship him The Seventh Argument We must pray as necessitie requireth But stinted prayers cannot be as necessity requireth Therfore stinted prayer is unlawfull G. GIFFORD To this I answered approving the Proposition And in the Assumtion I did distinguish of matters to be prayed for as that there be thinges necessarie to be praied for at all times and of all men of these a prescript forme may be vsed at all meetings of the Church there be matters not at all tymes needfull to be praied for for such there can be no prescript forme to be vsed contynually c. I. GREENWOOD I Have proved in the first Argument that no mens writtngs are to be brought into the publique assemblies for there the liuely graces of Gods owne spirit and Cononical Scriptures onely must be heard In the Seconde the vnlawfullnes of reading for praying in the third the vnlawfullnes to impose any thing by commaundement that God hath not commaunded And here we shall handle in few wordes the end of your stinted praiers Your distinction is far differing from the wisedome of the spirit for though many thinges be at all tymes needfull to the publique assemblies yet stand not the assemblies either all at any tyme or anie at all times in the same neede and feeling of them or fitnes to receave them so that except you cā make all assemblies in the same want of such thinges as are alwaies needfull or any at al times in the same preparednes to aske and use them that be needfull you can make no stinted prayers for them Give eare then to the Scripture in this point 1 Cor. 2.11 For what man knoweth the thinges of a man if not the spirit of man which is himself c. Againe who knoweth what shal be tomorrow Whiles you then thought to have founde out more then the only wise governour of his house lawe needfull for his worship in his Church and of every soule you have lifted up your self into his seate and taken the office of his spirite upon you who searcheth the heartes and knoweth the reynes and teacheth his people how and when to aske according to his will and their needs Rom. 8.26.27 also the spirit helpeth our infirmities for what we should pray as we ought we know not But the spirit it self maketh request for us with sighs and groanes which can not be expressed Yet searching the heartes knoweth the meaning of the spirit because he maketh request for the saincts according to the will of God And wher you say then that if we marke the prescript forme of prayers of all Churches we shall see this regard that nothing be left out which is necessarie etc. This bewrayeth your shallownes the wisedome of the flesh is foolishnes with God who hath searched the depth of Gods spirit or knowne the minde of man who can prescribe the estate of all Churches and what every moment is needfull to be praied for Odious then is such drosse of a fleshly mans heart Your second provision that nothing be prayed for in your liturgy that falleth seldom out but they are limited to the time Your Church hath not this provision you compell men to pray against thunder and lightning at midd winter and in your most solemne feastes against sodeine death But the truth is till you amend your wayes God will accept no sacrifice of you much lesse requireth this at your handes to doe more in his worship then he hath commaunded And where you say in the Church of England the preachers are not limited touching the matter of their prayers it is not true you are all sworne to your portuis howsoever you may omitt some of it for your Sermons and under pretext therof what part you will And why is ther not a forme for prayer prescribed to be used after and before your Sermons is it because the text is not allwayes the same or that the speaker is not in like fitnes or the auditorie in the same preparednes I assure you these thinges might be sufficient cause why you cannot use alwaies the same wordes and pray according to your necessities and even so standeth the case for al other affaires in the Church The disposition of the soule and the distresses thereof continve not in one state one howre But let me tell you why you have no forme of praier for your preachings In manie of your parishes or as you would have them Churches Sermons are of those rare thinges whereof you saye ther can be no prescript forme of praier yea your liturgie approveth a ministerie and sufficyent administration without anie doctrine which sheweth it came out of the divells forge and not out of Christes Testament But seing you would take vpon you to set so manie prescript formes of prayer as ther are thinges necessarie for every assemblie to pray for wher Christ hath set none And if it were a thing so necessarie to have prescript wordes at the administration of the Sacraments I asked you whether our saviour Christ had not forgott himselfe as you thought that when he commaunded his ministers to go preach and baptise and shewed them the wordes of institution and the Elementes to be vsed with all things thervnto needfull he did not prescribe some forme of wordes for prayer in particular In the tabernacle every pinne was prescribed so that ether such formes of praier are not necessarie or Christes Testament hath some wants To this you answere that it is not of necessitie ther should be a sett forme of praier prescribed for the administration of
Egypt should knowe the beautie of Sion ther is a cloude betweene you and us we have blessed be our God a pillar of fire before us An other fault you say in my former reason is that because the censure of the Church should redresse defaultes therfore ther needeth no liturgie Nay take all with you No fault can be censured that is not a transgression against the rules of Gods worde and those to be censured by the doctrine and admonitions of the Church therfore we neede no liturgies To the worde of God onely ought all men to be bounde by covenant and for the transgressions therof onely to be censured G. GIFFORD The Church hath this power to ordeine according to Gods worde and to appointe such orders in matters of circumstance c. as shall most fuly serve to edification And then these orders being established the Church is to drive men to the observation of them I. GREENWOOD First in this your papisticall mudde I must tell you your reading of mens writinges for prayer is a falle worship of God and not a matter of circumstance And for matters of order and circumstance which are no part of the worship ther can be no other lawes made of them then Christ hath made As for ordeyning of lawes in the Church it is to plead for unwritten verities and to make the lawe of God unsufficient neyther can it be according to the worde to make anie lawe that God hath not made but an adding to his worde which is execrable pride these your wordes then according to Gods worde was but a cloake to cover the grossenes of your position for the worde ordeyne or create lawes is to make some that are not made before let us then see your cleane sentence to be this The Church hath authority in matters of order and circumstance to make and ordaine lawes in his Church for his worship now see how you contradict these Scriptures Rev. 22.18.19 Prov. 30.5.6 everie worde of God is pure etc. put nothing to his worde least he reproove thee and thou be found a liar likewise Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 and Gal. 3.15 though it be but a mans covenant when it is confirmed no man doth abrogate it or superordeine anie thing to it And the second Commaundement forbiddeth anie such humaine tradition in the worship of God all the Popes trinckets might be brought in by the same grounde We would willingly have seene your warrant for this doctrine your bare worde is not sufficient to impose other lawes then God hath made upon his Church This is the foundation of Poperie and Anabaptistrie to give libertie to make lawes in the worship of God Yet you will goe furder that such lawes being ordeyned established by publique authoritie the discipline and censures of the Church are to drive men to the observation of the same By your judgment our Saviour Christ was an Anabaptisticall Schismatique that would not himself nor his Disciples obey and observe the traditions of the Elders And what saith he unto pleaders for traditions It is thus written Marke 7.5 then asked him the Pharises and Scribes whie walke not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders but eate meate with unwashed hands Then be answeared surely Isay hath prophesied well of you hypocrites as it is written this people honoreth me with their lippes but their heartes are far from me But they worship me in vayne teaching doctrines mens precepts For you lay the commaundement of God aside and observe the tradition of men And to helpe foorth your evill matter instead of proof from the scripture you fal out into furious exclamation against them that desire onely to have the worde practised saying who is able to imagine the innumerable divisions and offences in the practise of your anabaptisticall freedome in which you deny the Church to have power to ordeine and impose any orders lett all men judge the venemousnes of this tongue Christ pronunceth them accursed that add or superordeyne any thing to his worde and you pronounce judgement of them that onely obey his worde Shall it be said that Mr Gifford holdeth that the onely practise of Gods worde would be the cause of iunumerable divisions and offences This hath bene Satans old accusation in the mouth of the most enimies of Christs Gospell nowe it must be Mr Giffords accusation of Gods ordinances to be insufficient unperfect etc. fearfull is his Apostacy from that truth he hath knowen I take it it is more like to be Anabaptistry to practise any thing without warrant of the word to make their own devises lawes in Gods worship then to doe nothing but what God hath commaunded within the limites of our callings For the franticke ministery it came of your owne wordes that therfore you must needes have a leiturgie because ther are manie franticke spirits in the ministerie then I say it is like you have a frantick ministerie that cannot be governed without another liturgie then Christs Testament For their great giftes you speake of I will not compare with them My reason from the Colossians was that as the Church there is commaunded to admonish their Pastor Archippus if he transgressed and to stirr him up to his busines so all ministers that caused divisions contrary to the doctrine of Christ were to be admonished and avoyded if they repent not so that the worde of God and admonition by the same if they trāsgresse is the waye to keepe all men in due order and not imposing Leiturgies upon the Church besides Christs Testament And where you collected thus that if read Prayers and imposed liturgies be Idolatrous then wher will you finde a visible Church say you I answered that the true Church might erre even in this poynte though not in like height of sinne Then you desire that the Churches of England may find like favour at our hand to which I answeare let him that handleth that question with you shew you how your sinnes herein exceede other countries and persequute such as reprove you Your church as you all it cannot pleade ignorance Your rayling speaches of blind Schismatiques Donatists etc. bewray what sweet water is in the heart if you cannot prove your Church to be the established Church of Christ they light all upon your self Ther are none Schismatiques but such as departe from the faith shew wherein we have transgressed will not be reformed In the meane tyme you are Schismatiques from Christ in that you practise the Statutes of Omry You chardge us with pride for that you saye we imagine to knowe more then all the Churches uppon earth This also hath bene Satans old weapon to deface the truth Ierem. 18.18 why maye not a simple babe in Christ see that which whole nations have not seene we cannot but speake the things Gods Worde teacheth us if we speake trueth you need not oppose that we judge anie man it is the worde of God shall judge us all and I saye it is