the true God through the meditation of Christ in spirit and truth with heart and voyce for our present wantes according to the wil of God was never yet sincearly taught by these time-seruing Priests But as an agreeable service to the humors of earthlie minded men which haue not the spirit of God this ware was thrust vpoÌ„ al people they well knowing that such a ministerie and such a Church of wordlings could neuer haue stood without such a Samaritan worshipp and Egiptian calf and like earthlie deuised to counterfeyt a Religion al men inclyned to some And long have I heard this pretended worship inveyed against by many sometymes zealous for the errours and confused order therof Yet could I not heare anie to sett downe or teach which was the true prayer that only pleased God manie contriving divers formes of wordes as though they had knowen the heart of man counselled them to reade them day vnto day yeare vnto yeare at evening morning dinner Svpper c. by portion measure and stint as an offering to God what state soever the soule were in not teaching the difference betweene reading vpon a booke and prayer vnto God all this tyme. So that true and only prayer hath not beene taught al this tyme and those that knewe how to pray aright neglect it this reading being most easie as they thinke and they aâ—test therunto compelled in the publique assemblies thus to mocke with God after the manner of the papists mattins true zeale no where founde but in the persequted remnant These my first writings caryed abroade by such as desired true instruction and willing to make others partakers of such benefites as God imparted vnto them yt fell into Mr. GIFFORDS hand Who as yt seemeth being a marchaunt of such ware fynding the gayne of the priesthood to depend here vpon or as he saith the peace vniformitie of the Church made head vnto yt and that not with purpose as the fruite of his labour sheweth to edifie others but standing himself a minister to this Liturgie having made shipwrack of that conscience he sometimes was thought to haue with all bitternes of spirit and carnal wisdome having no more savour of grace in his writings then there is taste in the white of an egge fleeth vpoÌ„ me with vncharitable raylings sclanders c And loadeth not only me but al the faithfull that walke by the rule of Gods worde with opprobrious titles of Donatists Brownists Anabaptists Heretiques Schismatiques seditious foolish frantick c. to bring not onely vs but the truth of God into contempt with our Sovereigne Prynce and all that feare God for he ceaseth not with laying al reproches he can devise vpoÌ„ our persons as one of those Locusts Reu. 9. whose similituds are like vnto horses prepared to battell whose faces like men but theyr teeth as the teeth of Lyons But also perverteth blaspheameth and by al meanes de faceth the truth offered him Wel seyng the natural man perceaveth not the things of the spirit of God I speake not here of the giftes of the spirit but of the grace of God which sanctifieth the same many hauing Charismata that haue not Charin. And seyng I am alreadie thus rent Gods truth delivered by me troden vnder his feete I will followe the councell of Salomon who forewarneth me that he vvhich reproveth a skorner receaueth to himself shame and he that rebuketh the vvicked himself a blot And so tourne me from him leauing him to the consideration of his owne words where hee saieth in his Epistle to the reader He that seemeth most zealous in Religion and refrayneth not his tongue hath but bitternes in his heart in stead of heauenly zeale And though nothing els can be looked for at theyr handes that are Apostate from that light they have sometymes themselves published of which sorte the worlde was never more full yet for the good of Gods chosen scattered abroade and for the defence of Gods trueth I cannot holde my tongue And for the more playnenes I will answeare as to him though I minde not to haue anie more to do with him till God giue him repentance Wishing grace by the direction of Gods holy spirit to him that readeth to weigh both sides vprightly and to follow the truth to his owne saluation IO. GRENWOOD GEORGE GIFFORD To condemne and ouerthrow read prayer ye bring as the ground or foundation of all your matter this Sentence GOD is a Spirit and to be vvorshipped in Spirit Iohn 4. This Scripture in deede is cleare and strong to cut downe al Carnal worship as disgreeing from the nature of GOD. And if any mayntaine that the very bodily action of reading is the worship of God it may fitly be alleadged against them c. IOHN GREENWOODS ANSWER Wisdome is Iustified of her Children IT is agreed vpon and consented vnto on both sides that seeing God is a spirit and onely requireth such to worship him as worship him in spirit and truth all carnall worship is cut downe hereby of what sort soeuer as disagreeing from the nature of God And that all fantastical deuises of men namely whatsoeuer is not warranted in his worde is carnall worship a wearisomnes vnto him and lothsome in his sight So that no man ought to intermedle attempt or practize anie thing in shew of worship whereof they haue not sure grounde of his worde For euen our God is a consuming fire Now to put away all your bodily distinctions and earthly cauils I still affirme as I haue proued the stinting imposing mens writings vpon publique assemblies to haue them read ouer by number and stint or any other way as a worship of God in stead of true inuocation is a meere deuise of man and so carnall worship as also all other reading of mens writinges publiquely or priuatly in this abuse for praying to God Yet say you to apply this Scripture Iohn 4.22.23 in this manner against read prayer is friuolous where I appeale to all mens consciences for the weight therof It is friuolous you say except I can proue that a man cannot pray by the spirit of GOD with sighes and groanes vpon a booke or when prayer is vttered after a prescript forme c. At the first step you go about to alter the question All our prayers ought to be vttered after a prescript forme euen that perfect rule and forme our Sauiour gaue to his Disciples and al posteâ—ities But this is nothing to the matter For the other which is nothing but a begging of the question I alleaged certayne reasons to this effecet First that those sighes and groanes in reading instead of praying were not of fayth seeing in praying the sighes and groanes that proceede of faith minister matter to praye without a booke Secondly that you did but barely affirme the question in calling it prayer by the spirit when one doth read seing reading is not praying at al for as I then alleadged to inuocate the name of God in
spirit is by the worke of the spirit to bring fourth of our hearts praier to God which is than in truth when yt agreeth to Gods word But reading is another matter namely a receauing of instruccion into the heart from the booke Out of the first Mr. GIFFORD maketh men beleeue he hath fetched two heresies the one a perfection of faith the other that faith cannot be ioyned vnto or stand vvith anie outvvard helpes for the encrease therof Litle marueile he found so mâ—nie heresies in our whole writinges that could finde two or three in my first reason but that you may remember your self better though you had two yeares to consider I will bring the wordes before you againe if peradventure you may have grace to call backe yourself I said if the sighes and groanes in that kinde of praying were of faith yt would minister matter without a booke this sentence I may confirme by manie testimonies of scripture that no peruerted spirit can gainesay or resist the scripture teacheth vs euery where that in praying the spirit onlie helpeth our infirmities no other helpes mentioned or can be collected in the present action of prayer through the Scripture He hath sent into our hearts the spirit of his Sonne crying ABBA Father vve beleeue therfore vve speake Yet here is not anie shew of perfectioÌ„ of faith but of the contrary praying for our wantes But this may be gathered that God onely accepteth the fruits of his owne spirit in prayer and requireth no more of anie but that euerie one according to the proportion of faith pray vnto him as occasion in them requireth Nowe to conclude that because in praying we neede not a booke to speake for vs when the heart it self and booke of our Conscience speaketh with God that therefore fayth neuer needeth instruction but is perfect were sclanderous false and senselesse The cause then of these heresies proceed hereof that your selfe Mr. GIFFORD would needes frame two syllogismes and in the moodes of your malice coÌ„straine the proposition of the present action in praying to a general sentence of all times and actions though both our question here was of the verie action of praying and in the conclusion of that very poynt within six lynes after this you had these wordes Euen in the time of their begging at Gods hands so that these heresies must be Mr. Giffords and not myne seeing they are found to be coyned of his idle brayne and godles heart only to defame the trueth But say you the most part are ignorant weake short of memorie c. therefore need al helps to stir them vp to pray c. where by your own confession reading is not praying but a help to stir vp to pray And euen hereupon all our errours arise that you cannot discerne the difference of spirituall gifts with the distinct vse of them We doubt not but before prayer and all the dayes of our life we haue neede of helps of instruction to praye aright and for the fitnes of the mind and bodie often fasting reading meditating etc. are great helpes to go before to humble our selues in praying but in the present action of prayer when the heart is talking with God the eyes hands etc. with attention lift vp to heaueÌ„ al the powers of our soules and bodies conuersant with God to take a booke and read cannot be called in this action a help but a confounding of the mind of Gods ordinances and a doing we know not what though before and after it be an excellent meanes ordeyned of God to instruct vs to pray and al other dueties As for the confirmation you talke of where I alleadged that a troubled minde is the penne of a readie writer therfore needeth not a booke to speake for yt in the action of praying By troubled minde i vnderstood such a minde as is preseÌ„tly moued with the sight of some sinne or vrged by other occasion a broken spirit a broken and contrite heart aÌ„d not such a minde as in dispayre or doubt ys perplexed and that the heart which is moued in faith with present occasion to call vpon God is the penne of a readie writer that is hath matter aÌ„d wordes enough without a boocâ— to vtter yt owne wantes we may reade throughout the Psalmes My throte is dry saith David I am vvearie with crying c. But here againe instead of answere you tell me I runne vppon the rocke of an hereticall opinioÌ„ of perfection Wherin i wonder but that i perceaue your right eye is blinded you should be so carelesse what you say nay what after two yeares studie you put in prynt Doth it follow that because the heart moued with occasion through the worke of faith hath wordes and matter enough in praying without a booke to speake for yt that therfore faith is perfect let equal Iudges coÌ„sider Here you say manie are so troubled perplexed in minde that they cannot pray till they haue some consolation by the direction of others which wheÌ„ they cannot haue reading vpon a booke is a notable help I allowe al this and agree if you would make reading one thing and prayer an other divers exercises of the spirit etc. But in the verie action of praying to haue an other speake vnto vs never so good wordes of exhortation were but a confounding of the minde and actioÌ„ and an abuse of both those holie exercises Euen so by your owne comparison reading vpon a booke in the action of praying seing we cannot do both at once Yt is the Spirit of God in the verie action of prayer that helpeth our infirmities David in praying finding his soule heauie stirreth vp himself thus My soule whie art thou cast downe whie art thou disquieted within me waite on God For I will yet giue him thaÌ„kes my preseÌ„t help and my God He had a troubled minde his mouth wanted no wordes to prouoke the Lorde to heare his complaint and his heart to waite vpon the Lorde and so through all the Psalmes you shall finde the conversing of the soule with God to be such as yt were a mockery to think reading vpon a booke could haue anie place in that action or that anie mans writing could lay out the present estate of the soule with the passions therof The Priest may say my booke whie art thou so euill prynted for wheÌ„ they reade the heart caÌ„not reasoÌ„ and talke with God To the second poynt which was but your bare assuming of the question to say a man may pray by the spirit vpon a booke c. I alleadged that to worship God in spirit is when the inward faith of the heart bringeth fourth true invocation etc. this you graunt to be most true and that none other is accepted of GOD then that which proceedeth from the inward faith of our owne heart But you think that reading vpon a booke is to bring fourth of the heart true inuocatioÌ„ This cannot be if we consider the difference
Liturgies as Christ had to set downe a forme of praier he being Lord of the house The wickednesse of which collections you shall neuer be able to answeare And because you here vrge me therunto I will make answeare to your two places of Scripture wherwith by false interpretation you deceaue the simple which taken from you your matter is nothingh but cauilling The places are these Luce 11. Nom. 6. and because the one explanes the other and your collections the same from both I will beginne with nombers 6.32.33.34 etc. Thus shall you bless the Children of Israell saying the Lorde bless thee keep thee c. Here you say they were commaunded to vse the verie wordes prescribed in all their blessings This I say is not true for the Hebrew worde is Coh Tebaracu thus shall you blesse wher the worde Coh is an aduerb of similitude as we say after this maner which cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions This worde Coh is ysed throughout the Bible in this maner in all the Prophets wheÌ„ they say thus saith the Lorde where the summe of their prophesies are onlie recorded to vs by the holy Ghost aÌ„d not all the wordes Againe this blessing is vsed in the Psalmes and Chronicles in prayer for the people in manie other wordes Ely blessed Hanna in other wordes etc. And where by Lâ—ce 11.2 yt is recorded that our Sauiour Christ commaunded his Disciples when you pray say our Father c. yt is playne by the doctrines following 4.5.6.8.11 verses that Christ tyed no man to the verie wordes saying ouer for he teacheth them to aske their particular wants as a childe asketh breade or an egg of his Father also to importune the Lorde for our particular wants But to make this place more playne the same holy Ghost in the 6. of Mathew 9. verse saith when you pray say thus Our Father c. where the greeke word houtos hath the same signification that the Hebrew worde Coh had which is after this maner and cannot be referred to the verie wordes saying ouer wherupon Mr. Calvin vpon those wordes saith Noluit filius dei prescribere quibus verbis vtendum sit The Sonne of God would not prescribe what wordes we must vse Now consider how falslie Mr. Gifford hath interpreted these Scriptures to say the Priests wer commaunded to vse the verie wordes and that Christ commaunded to vse the verie wordes As for his collections that therfore mens writings may be imposed vpoÌ„ publique assemblies by stint and number to be prayde vt is intollerable error and bringeth in all popery Here I must call all men that reade this fruictlesse discourse to be witnes of Mr. Giffords abuse of his tongue to the defacing of Gods truth In his Epistle he proclaymed that I called all men Idolaters which you shall perceaue to be his owne wordes and to that end I will breifly repeat yt In my first writing I affirmed the reading imposed Liturgies by stint aÌ„d limitation instead of true invocation as also all reading meÌ„s writings for praying to be idolatrye In his answeare he said he could not see by what collour yt could be called Idolatrie or maintayned out of Gods worde so to be but yt seemes the penners of these things take euery sinne against the first table of the lawe to be Idolatry if they do so saith he and with all do hold that no Idolater shal be saued then doubtlesse all are lost c. Tothis ignoraÌ„t excursorie I answered that all false and devised worship by mans inuention was Idolatrye as the first and second commandemens did testifie And so admit all the breaches of the first table were not idolatrye yet reading of mens writinges instead of praying must needes be idolatry seing yt is a transgression of the second Commandement Furder though I needed not have followed his emptye head euen a cloude without water yet I proceeded to proue that no idolater could be saved but by repentance for their knowne sinne and craving pardon with David for their hidden sinnes and secreat faults Moreouer said I do you thinke anie man is free from all inward and outward idolatrye seing we cannot keep one Commaundement and in some things we sinne all In which wordes i plainelie reproued his grossnes that concluded all men idolaters which committed any idolatrye and that no idolater could be sauld and distinguished betweene the sinne of ignorance weaknes and inperfection etc. in Gods children and open professed obstinate idolatrie Yet this godles man would lay to my chardg that i should call all meÌ„ idolaters wheras i neuer vsed such a worde in all my writings But only answered his folly in this running out from the question they were his owne wordes that brought this vpon his owne heade by concluding that if euery sinne against the first table were idolatrie and no idolater could be saued then all are lost let the grosnes then be his and not mine And i leaue it to the consideration of all men whether i may not say that they which traÌ„sgresse the first or second Commaundements do commit Idolatrie without absurdity But saith he though yt be so yet the Scripture calleth not the godly murtherers Idolaters etc. for the reliques of sinne remayning I answere that therfore your former absurd cauilling where you said if we hold it Idolatrie etc. ys by your owne mouth fully answered But to auoyde this foyle he hath an other euasion I thought saith he we had reasoned about such grosse idolatrie as a Church is to be condeÌ„ned and forsaken which is defiled therwith Here againe you misreport me I neuer reasoned to that end in this whole discourse but only laboured to shew all men this error of reading meÌ„s writinges instead of praying that they might learne how to conuerse with God and their owne Conscience in prayer And what mendes wil you make for this sclandering and defacing of the truth to all the world all that I desire is your repentance and amendement which God graunt vnto you if you you be his It followeth in your booke thus But seeing you confess thaâ— all men be Idolaters that is touching the remanents of sinne it must needs follow there is no Church free from spots c. This worde idolaters must still be yours and then i willinglie graunt that no man liuing is free from idolatrie concerning the reliques of sinne Also that no Church vpon earth can be without spot vpon earth So that now by your owne coÌ„fessioÌ„ I pleade not for perfection in this life though the more we want the more we ought to endeuour With what face then could you publish me an Anabaptist in your Epistle and out of one mouth giue contrarie sentence Doth your ordinary teach you to cast out such bitter waters of vntruthes was yt possible I should hold al men Idolatres and some men without committing of sinne after regeneration especially to mainetaine both such heresies as you
to aske and vse theÌ„ that be needfull you caÌ„ make no stinted prayers for them Giue â—are then to the Scripture in this pointe 1. Corinth 2.11 For what man knoweth the thinges of a man if not the spirit of maÌ„ which is in himself c. Agayne who knoweth what shal be to morow Whiles you then thought to haue founde out more then the only wise gouernour of his house sawe needfull for his worship in his Church and of euerie soule you haue lifted vp your self into his seate and taken the office of his spirite vpon you who searcheth the heartes and knoweth the reynes and teacheth his people how and when to aske according to his will and eheir needs Rom. 8.26.27 also the spirit helpeth our infirmities for what we should pray as we ought we know not But the spirit it self maketh request for vs with sighes groanes which caÌ„not be expressed Yet searching the heartes knoweth the meaning of the spirit because he maketh request for the saincts according to the wil of God And wher you say then that if we marck the prescript forme of prayers of all Churches we shall see this regard that nothing be left out which is necessarie etc. This bewrayeth your shallownes the wisedome of the flesh is foolishnes with God who hath searched the depth of Gods spirit or knowne the minde of man who caÌ„ prescribe the estate of al Churches and what euery moment is needfull to be praied forâ— Odious then is such drosse of a fleshly mans heart Your secoÌ„d provision that nothing be prayed for in your liturgy that falleth seldom out but they are limited to the time Your Church hath not this provision you compel men to pray against thunder and lightning at midd winter and in your most solemne feastes against sodeine death But the truth is till you amend your wayes God will accept no sacrifice of you much lesse requireth this at your handes to do more in his worship then he hath commaunded And where you say in the Church of England the preachers are not limyted touching the matter of their praiers it is not true you are all sworne to your portuis howsoeuer you may omitt some of yt for your Sermons and vnder pretext therof what part you will And why is ther not a forme for prayer prescribed to be vsed after and before your Sermons ys it because the text is not allwaies the same or that the speaker is not in like fitnes or the auditorie in the same preparednes I assure you these thinges might be sufficyent cause why you cannot use alwaies the same wordes and pray according to your necessities and even so standeth the case for al other affaires in the Church The disposition of the soule and the distresses therof continue not in one state one howre But let me tell you whie you haue no forme of praier for your preachings In manie of your parishes or as you would have them Churches Sermons are of those rare thinges wherof you saye ther caÌ„ be no proscript forme of prayer yea your liturgie approueth a ministerie and sufficyent administration without anie doctrine which sheweth yt came out of the diuells forge and not out of Christes Testament But seing you would take vpon you to set so manie perscript formes of prayer as ther is thinges necessarie for euerie assemblie to pray for wher Christ hath set none And if yt were a thing so necessarie to have prescript wordes at the administration of the Sacraments I asked you whether our sauiour Christ had not forgott himself as you thought that when he commaunded his ministers to go preach and baptise and shewed them the words of institution and the Elementes to be vsed with all things thervnto needfull he did not prescribe some forme of wordes for prayer in particular In the tabernacle euerie pinne was prescribed so that ether such formes of praier are not necessarie or Christes Testament hath some wants To this you answere that yt is not of necessitie ther should be a sett forme of prayer prescibed for the administration of the Sacraments The minister may conceive prayer etc. Hold you to this that it is not of necessity you will denie it againe the next Argument Well here you graunt yt is not of necessitie But you haue not answered me till you tell me whether you hold it necessarie or no if yl be at all times necessarie the Testament is not perfect Againe do you not hold yt of necessitie when you eycommunicate men and depose your ministery for not observing yt But you saye yt is for conueniencye If it be a part of Gods worship and all tymes convenieÌ„t then is it necessarie and if yt be not necessarie put such conueniency in your cornerd Capp or surplus Nowe if yt be necessarie at all times you must proue yt is commaunded in Gods worde or els say that all thinges necessarie in Gods worship be not coÌ„teyned in Gods worde which were-blasphemous and papisticall to affirme To this you graunt all things necessarie and convenient are conteyned and aske if I be ignorant that ther be manie thinges conteyned in the scriptures that are not expressed in particulars but be gathered from the generall rules No I am not ignoraÌ„t of this but if it may be gathered ether by expresse wordes or by general rule that ther should be prescript formes of praier for the administration of the Sacraments or anie other particular action of the Church then must yt be so of necessitie because God hath commaunded yt though not in particular yet in generall rules But you graunt yt is not of necessity therfore yt is not commaunded in particular nor conteyned in anie generall rule Yet you demaunde of me if one should obiect that ther were not coÌ„maundement in the Scriptures nor example for anie praiers to be made at all before preaching etc. I would say he should lye against God we have both For the Apostle sheweth yt was the chief part of their office to perdure in the worde aÌ„d prayer Act. 6.4 1. Cor. 14. and 1. Tim. 2.1 Acts. 2.42 besides all things are saÌ„ctified vnto vs by the word and praier And because they never vsed doctrine in Church but prayer weÌ„t before their meetings is said to be vnto prayer Some things ther are I graunt that are not prescribed in particular and yet are commaunded by general doctrine as baptisme of Infants But whatsoeuer is commaunded ether in particular or necessarie collections from general rules are of necessitie to be obeyed as the commaundements of God and may not be altered but your particular formes of prescript wordes have no such warrant Nowe seing you would have no prescript wordes of prayer for the minister to vse before his preaching nor of necessitie for the Sacraments and haue none for excommunicatioÌ„ etc. I wondred wherof your Portuis is made and wherto yt should serue except for churchings and burialls and such popery wherby you leaue the
Sauiour CHRIST was an Anabaptisticall Schismatique that would not himself nor his Disciples obey and obserue the traditions of the Elders And what saith he vnto pleaders for traditions It is thus writteÌ„ Marke 7.5 theÌ„ asked him the Pharises and the Scribes whie walke not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders but eate meate with vnwashed hands TheÌ„ he answeared surely ISAY hat prophecied well of you hypòcrites as it is written this people honoreth me with their lippes but their heartes are far froÌ„ me But they worship me in vayne teaching doctrines meÌ„s precepts Foâ— you lay the commaundement of God aside and obserue the tradition of meÌ„ And to helpe fourth your euill matter instead of proof from the scripture you fall out into furious exclamation against them that desire only to haue the worde practized saying who is able to imagine the innumerable divisions and offences in the practize of your anabaptisticall freedome in which you deny the Church to have power to ordeine and impose any orders lett all men iudge the venemousenes of this tongue Christ pronounceth them accursed that add or super ordeyne any thing to his worde and you pronounce iudgment of them that only obey his worde Shall yt be said that Mr. Gifford holdeth that the only practize of Gods worde would be the cause of innumerable diuisions and offences This hath bene Satans old accusation in the mouth of the most enimies of Christs Gospell nowe yt must be Mr. Giffords accusation of Gods ordinances to be insufficient â— vnperfect etc. fearfull is his Apostacy from that truth he hath knowen I take it yt is more like to be Anabaptistry to practise any thing without warrant of the word to make their owne devises lawes in Gods worship then to do nothing but what God hath commaunded within the limites of our callings For the fraÌ„ticke ministery yt came of your owne wordes that therfore you must needes haue a liturgie because ther are manie fraÌ„tick spirits in the ministerie then I say it is like you haue a frantick ministerie that cannot be gouerned without an other liturgie then Christs Testament For their great giftes you speake of I will not compare with them My reason from the Colossians was that as the church there is commaunded to admonish their Pastor Archippus if he transgressed and to stirr him vp to his busines so all ministerâ— that caused divisions contrary to the doctrine of Christ were to be admonished and auoyded if then repent not so that the worde of God and admonition by the same if they transgressed is the waye to keepe all men in due order and not imposing liturgies vpon the church besides Christs Testament And where you collected thus that if read praiers and imposed liturgies be Idolatrous theÌ„ wher will you finde a visible church say you I answered that the true Church might erre euen in this poynte though not in like height of sinne Then you desire that the churches of England may find likâ— fauour at our hand to which I answeare let him that handleth that question with you shew you how your sinnes herein exceede other countries and persequâ—t such as reproue you Your church as you call yt cannot pleade ignorance Your rayling speaches of blind Schismatiques Donatists etc. bewray what sweet water is in the heart if you cannot proue your church to be the established church of CHRIST they light all vpon your self Ther are none Schismatiques but such as departe from the faith shew wherin we haue transgressed and will not be reformed In the meane tyme you are Schismatiques from Christ in that you practize the Statutes of omry You chardge vs with pride for that you saye we imagine to knowe more then all the Churches vppon earth This also hath bene Satans old weapon to deface the truth Iere. 18.18 why maye not a simple babe in Christ see that which whole nations haue not seene we cannot but speake the things GODS Worde teacheth vs if we speake trueth you need not oppose that we iudge anie man yt is the worde of God shall iudge vs all aÌ„d I saye yt is an old popish Argument to reason thus all Churches do such a thing therfore it is lawfull except you hold with the Pope that the Church cannot erre which were blasphemous You are not well pleased that I will not say it is no Church that hath a liturgie imposed vpon yt and because you haue so often sclandered me that I hold yt so you take great paynes to conclude it I haue said that to impose meÌ„s writings to be read in stead of praying is to worship God after a false maner that yt is a devise of Antichrist a deade letter quenching the spirit not of faith Idolatrous is changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll breauing our ChristiaÌ„ libertye and so most detestable By these speaches I condemne al churches say you this is not true I condemne but the sinne But you have sayd I deny that to be the Church that hath any thing ymposed I say you speake an open vntrueth and remember the iudgment of him that inuenteth and maketh lyes And God giue you grace to repent if you belong to him The consideration of this our discourse I hartelie commeÌ„de to be dulie aÌ„d vprightly wayed of all that feare God who graunt vs his grace to forsake any sinne where it shal be shewed vs by how weake instruments soever yt be reproved and pardon me all my defaults in this my hastie answere Thus have we seene the vnlawfullnes of thrusting mens writings vpon publique assemblies and reading instead of praying A generall Argument against their vvorship in respect of their present estate both of Ministers and people The praiers of such ministers people as stand vnder a false gouernmeÌ„t are not acceptable not only because they aske amisse but because they keepe not his Commaundements The praiers of such ministers people as be subiect to Antichrist are abhominable Those ministers people vvhich stand subiect to the Bishops and their Courts are subiect to Antichrist c. Therfore their praiers c. G. Gifford These do oncerne the third fourth accusatioÌ„ and therfore the answere is included in the ansvvere to them Yet I take exception against the first that the Church may be holden by force from executing Gods commaundemens touching externall gouernement and yet be the true Church of Grd I alleadged the Church that was holden captiue in Babylon c. I. Greenvvood HEre after your acustomed maner you offer me great wronge first insteade of answere you alter the question very subtylie then you dismember my former answere and not only so but you haue nether let my former aÌ„swere be aÌ„swered nor prynted Thus you alter the questioÌ„ and answere not where the PropositioÌ„ speaketh of a ministerie aÌ„d people standing vnder a false gouernmeÌ„t you say the Church may be holdeÌ„ vp force from executing Gods commaundements in externall gouernment wherof I never
then wee thinck of your counterfeit playes and pleas for your Idolls and detestable sacriledge and high prophanation of GODS ordinances with Iannes and Iambres to resist the truth Paraphrases wee hold to be mens writinges and expositions and not the word of GOD nor the liuely voice of Gods grace of interpretation or prayer therefore to be excluded this place of service vnto GOD. Thus you see the further you wrastle the further you make your wares the best of them odious to euerie godly conscience You say I deceiue the simple by gyuing them one crabbe amongst many apples but you may behold your best apples such as the holy GHOST hath foretold vs Revelation 18. to be entisements to euil It is well you will grant my Propositions so sound and I would wish if such de GODS wil they might be better sauoured Nowe because I wil not stand either repeating or contending about Syllogismes I will take this much yeilded of your owne conclusions which is as much in effect as I haue affirmed were you teach me thus to reason No mans writings are the vndoubted truth of God but haue errours and imperfections therfore men cannot further ground vpon them then they be consonant to the Canonicall Scriptures Againe The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets therfore our faith is not to rest vpon meÌ„s writings Wherevpon doth necessarily follow that if mens writings may not be builded vpon nor rested vpon howe should you dreame it lawfull to impose them for lawes vpon the publick assemblies or to haue them there read to beare rule as the wordes of God And this you confessed in an other of your writings that GOD spake vnto vs out of his vndoubted worde or by his owne word If then GOD speake not vnto vs by mens writinges that be of priuate interpretation in the assemblie nor that they can be made groundwork to buyld our faith vpon or to rest assured vpon yt will be granted I hope that they are not to be imposed vâ—on the publick assemblies as lawes and rules but left to euerie mans private vse in their libertie as they will answere for themselues what vse they put them to and whither they doe not prefer them before the booke of GOD or preiudice themselves by them This first poinct is then plaine That only GODS vndoubted worde is to be imposed brought in aÌ„d maintayned in the publick assemblies as lawes and rules no other writings being authentick or Canonical But here Mr. Giffard doth in effect affirme that the word of God yt self is not authentick or Canonical except in the Hebrew or Greeke Copie Wherin he goeth a litle beyond the Papists that wil yet allow the worde of GOD in latine And if it shoulde be defended that the worde of GOD were not the worde yt self that wee haue in our owne language it will follow that no man could haue assurance of faith except he vnderstoode both Hebrew and Greeke yea be able soundly to interpret the Scriptures in both If the translations be so far mens writings that yt ceaseth generally to be the word of GOD that is not written in Hebrew or Greek and mens writinges not to be grounded or rested vpon where shall our assurance stand And might not Mr. Giffard as well say the Hebrew and Greek Copiâ— are but paper ankyâ—ck many faults and errours by the print in vowells accents letters and so conclude we had not Authentick or canonicall Scriptures at al except mens erronious writings might be of equall authoritie in the assemblie that the Scriptures must he not beare with mee in accompting him an Atheist or Libertine in thus reasoning Hence then we see whiles you go about to abase the Canonicall Scriptures and extol your patched Leâ—tourgie you fall into manie blasphemies as I haue before told you Wee hold yt the word of GOD in what language soeuer stil reiecting the errours in the print in the translations etc. as they are knowne vnto vs and not the word yâ— self for the imperfections or errours in the translation and print Now when you can make that which remayneth the vndoubted worde of God not agreable only but an Authentick approued Canonicall Scripture authorised from God to be the verie eternal foundation and rules limitts and lawes giuen by himself vnto his people you may lift vp your 〈◊〉 DagoÌ„ into this place if there be some truth in their writings as what mens writings haue not some and the holy name of GOD verie much yet is that truth in the Scripture yt self and here so mingled with chaffe that it were not only vnprofitable and a hinderance of the true vse of GODS worde but an abolishing and defacing of the word yt self the maiestie whereof ought to terrifie you from this presumption And where you say that you decide not controversies by anie translation but by the Authentick Copies of the Hebrew and Greke I trust you speak only of such as are able by the interpretation thereof so to decide controversies and holde it not vnlawfull for anie such as haue not that help to convince errour by the powre of the word and conferring one place with an other in anie translation according to the analogie of faith though I grant we ought to vse the best approued But if this were not lawfull surely no man might prophesie in the Church which hath not the gift of interpretation of the tongue neither might any affirme any Scripture to be true but they wich haue knowledg of tongues How blasphemous is this gâ—are whiles you are ignorant of the powre wisdome and agreement of the word and Spirit and diuersitie of giftes giuen vnto men The Word and the Spirit approue ech other and beare wâ—â—ness ech of other in what language soeuer GOD giueth yt to our vnderstanding Prophesie and knowledg of tongues are two seueral giftes not alwayes giuen to one member but distributed as God in his wisdome hath appointed 1. Cor. 12. and prophesie commanded for the more excellent Cap. 14. But this is sufficient in this place that the word of God is the word of God in what language soeuer and to accompt yt being verbatim translated or at least so far foorth faithfully translated mans writing were blasphemie but mens writings can neuer be so holden the authentick Scriptures of God how agreable to the woâ—â— soeuer they be My argument is then firme and thus left vpon you Those writings which be not the word of God being imperfect and neuer without error may not be imponed as lawes and Canons vpon the publick assemblies or there be read or interpreted or offred vp in worship But such are al mens writings that be not the authentick word of God yt self The publick assemblies are only bound to the reading and interpretation of the Scriptures which God hath ordeined to be read in a knowne language aÌ„d for prayer and prophesie hath ordeined the liuely voice of his owne graces in the mouth