blindly leade to your Romish captiuitie Ta. Doe you call them captiues that are drawne to our Catholicke Communitie whom we chearily feede and foster vp with the milke of our holy mother Church Pa. The milke that you feede withall is but Boyne Clubbo it is not the sweete milke that is drawne from the Gospell Ta. Doe you disproue that foode that is aswell approued by the Pope as by all the auncient doctors of the Church Pa. They must bee your owne doctors that must helpe you for I am sure the doctors and fathers of the Primitiue Church had little to doe with your religion Ta. And who be those that you terme to be our own doctors Pa. Who should they be but the pillers of your Church Bonauentura Occam Scotus Thomas Aquinas with an infinite number such other like that be of your popish rable Ta. Our religion is not so much propped vp by them as by the holy scriptures Pa. Prooue but that and I will promise you to goe to Masse three times a weeke Ta. Is it not proofe enough that hath beene confirmed by the Pope himselfe many hundred yeares agoe and all those confuted that haue sought to impugne it Pa. Your Pope confureth more by poysons and by treasons then he doth by arguments or by any other authoritie either of words or writings that are drawne from the holy Scriptures Ta. You may make as many cauels as you list but I say the successor of Peter cannot erre and therefore the church is safest when it is ruled by him for whose faith Christ hath prayed that it might not faile Pa. Are we come to that againe I haue already named you a Pope that hath erred and dyed an hereticke and I tell you yet againe that the diuines of Paris openly confuted the conclusiōs and articles of Iohn the 22. and got the same to bee condemned before Philipe King of France with the sound of Trumpets but in whose name will not he craftely set forth his errours which dare falsely set forth himselfe in the place of the Sonne of God And haue not some other of your Popes both corrupted and falsified Counsels Canons and Decrees and all to vpholde their pride Ta. Shew me but where such a pranke hath beene played and I will giue you the Bucklers Pa. Where it was decreed by the Counsell of Chalcedon that Constantinople should be aduanced in ecclesiasticall matters as farre forth as Rome they shamefully forged that Constantinople should not be aduanced so far forth as Rome a horrible corruption of a Counsell turning an affirmatiue to a negatiue Ta. And what can you make of that but Vitiūscriptoris an ouersight in the writer a matter easely ouerslipt Pa. These be your shamelesse shifts when matters bee apparantly proued against you but what haue your Romanistes left vncorrupted no not the holy Scriptures themselues and howe many bookes haue beene forged and foy sted in seuerall mens names some of them calling their owne dreames and fantazyes the Gospell of Thomas of Barthelmew and of Barnabe and what Epistles Canons and Decretalles haue beene published vnder the names of Clemens Cletus and Anacletus and of diuerse others well proued to be but forgeries And how many Monkes and Fryers seeking to coloure their fayned holinesse with the reuerent titles of auncient Fathers pre fixed the names of Augustine Ambrose Hierome Cyprian Isydore and of many others before diuerse of their owne fantasies and forgeries thereby prouiding to strengthen their kingdome of blindnesse and errour the which if by the wisedome of God had not beene playnely approued and manyfestly founde out wee might haue reuerenced a company of lousie Monkes Fryers vnder the names and titles of auncient and learned fathers Ta. Lette them answere for themselues that haue done these thinges and I beleeue if your owne mynisterie were well sifted we might find amongst them some that in their conuersation of life are not answerable to that semblance that they make when they be in the pulpite Pa. Haue you no better shiftes then these whereby to excuse your impieties let the world then iudge of your religion what it is that is thus propped vp with such counterfeit stuffe lyes fables dreames visions vnwritten verities and impossibilities Popery is a religion that can content it selfe with knowing vntruthes without further search to find out the truth Ta. They are but heretickes and schismytickes that will thus reporte our religion is approued by the Pope and who is fitter to decide of truth then hee that is the supreame heade of the Church Pa. And although that supreame authority were alowed which your Pope coulde yet neuer proue yet it will bee sayde that the right directions vnto the truth must bee discerned by the doctrine and not by the dignitie Ta. Then who shall bee iudge of this truth which you speake of Pa. God is truth and who shall be iudge of God Ta. That God is truth it cannot bee denyed but of matters in controuersie who shall be iudge of truth Pa. Who but he that shall iudge all at the last day and in the meane time he onely is the supreame iudge of truth The Father hath committed all iudgement to the Sonne and my iudgement is true saith Christ. Iohn 5. 8. Ta. But if the scriptures bee mistaken or misinterpreted who shall then giue censure but the Pope Pa. This strife sayeth Saint Augustine requireth a Iudge Iudicet ergo Christus Let Christ be Iudge and Optatus writing of the same matter sayeth There can be no Iudgement we must seeke for a Iudge from heauen but why knocke we at heauen when we haue his will here in the Gospell And we are further taught in the Gospell it selfe They haue Moses and the Prophets let them heare them Ta. You are loath I perceiue that the Pope shoulde bee your iudge yet when he speaketh truth I hope you wil vouchsafe him audience Pa. No doubt but so long as he speaketh truth wee will both heare him and beleeue him and so we would do by Balams Asse Ta. Then you will beleeue nothing for truth but what you finde testified by the scriptures Pa. Nothing else but what the scripture doth approue for your Mongrell Monkes and Fryers haue so corrupted and counterfeyted the auncient fathers that wee dare trust nothing but what is concordant and agreeing with the scriptures Ta. But doe you not finde it testified that there were manie things done by Christ that were not written Pa. And yet a very foolish presumption to impugne thinges that are written vppon supposall of those things that are vnwritten and Basyle giueth vs a caueat in the matter It is a manifest fall from faith and a sinne that argueth infinite pride eyther to leaue that which is written or to admit of that which is not written Ta. This common frequent that is had to the scriptures by euery ignorant man hath opened the gap to all kind of diuision of heresies schismes sects and disorders Pa. By
towne corporate is inioyned for that houre to the seruice of the prince and how can a man more honestly expresse his zeale to the pope then flatly to deny his seruice to his prince I say that Catholicke that will offer himselfe to prison in such a case as yearely they doe almost in euery towne is worthy to attaine that estimation that he himselfe doth so much desire Pa. And what is that to be accounted a reble a traytor and a false hearted villayne to his prince Ta. No syr he doth it out of the loue he beareth to the Pope therefore amongest Catholickes to be beloued honored esteemed cherished and to be reputed for a patron a protector and a demy saint so long as he liueth and after his death to be canonized numbred and regestred in the Popes Calender Pa. Why then â—o commit a papist to pryson is rather a grace then a disgrace vnto him Ta. I tell you it is a glory vnto him he doth reioyce in it hee doth triumph in it he doth knowe himselfe to bee renowned by it Pa. But doth your townes-men that bee thus ill affected to their prince indure anie great penurie during the time of their imprysonment Ta. Now God and our blessed Lady defend it no sir they liue in pleasure they lie well they fare well they are frequented by their friends and rather then they should liue in lacke the whole cittie where they dwell will contribute towardes their charges Pa. But is not this a gratious clemencie in a soueraigne that will suffer those corporations to houlde or inioy any liberties or priuiledges that are thus opposite to himselfe and repugnant to his lawes Ta. Speake not of clemency Patricke where the priestes that shoulde sacrifice for the sinnes of the people are constrayned to liue in a disguised sort but not in open show Pa. And by this counterfeit shift of disguising themselues they march vp and downe the streets of Dublyne and where they list besides seducing the people without impeachment Ta. And from whence is that but by the mighty power of God that is able to protect his seruants although in the Lions denne and therefore he that hath any wit in his head will neuer seeke to apprehend trouble or molest any Catholicke priest Pa. Whereof should we stand in feare or doubt Ta. Of more enemies then friendes bee sure of that And name mee but any one manne that hath most buisied himselfe in those matters that hath gotten eyther gaine or grace and lette it bee that a Catholicke priest bee sometimes apprehended as God bee thanked for it it is seldome seene in Ireland doth he not vse his priestly dignitie in as large and as ample manner as if hee were at libertie in what pryson can you shutte him vppe but there he maketh holy water holy bread holy falt holy candell and for those that haue continuall accesse vnto him aswell men women and children he confirmes them still and reconciles them to the pope Pa. But doe you reconcile so many to the Pope when you be in prison as you speake of Ta. Both in pryson and out of prison we reconcile as many as will heare or beleeue vs. Pa. What to be traytors to the prince Ta. No syr but to vow themselues to the pope without any intended treason to the prince Pa. But this reconciled sort must in the end become traitors to the prince whether they ment it at the first or nay for when it pleaseth your holy father to depose the prince and to excommunicate as many as will acknowledge him for a lawfull magistrate as many times he hath done what shall your reconciled sort do then Ta. If a prince bee a heriticke shoulde wee communicate with him Pa. We may then condemne his heresie but we must pray for his person as the Apostle hath taught vs I exhort you therefore that first of all supplications prayers and intercessions be made for Kings and so for all that are in authoritie Ta. That is meete so long as they be good christians Pa. The aduertisement was written from Paul to Tymothy and at that time when princes were both infidels and Idolators Ta. I thinke those kings that be pagans are rather to be prayed for then those that be heretickes Pa. The church of Christ hath prayed for those princes that were heretickes that in the middest of their impietie and hottest tyrany Constantius for one that was an Arian and yet was prayed for by the decree of a common Counsell Ta. Perhaps they might do this in the beginning of his raigne before his heresie was discouered Pa. Perhaps there are none but papists that would appose any such doubtes and what are they but traytors that woulde teach subiectes to rebell Ta. It is no treason to say the Pope may depose princes when he hath receiued that power from Christ Pa. If you coulde but proue that we might the better beleeue you in some other matters Ta. Hath he not the keyes of the kingdome of heauen Pa. So hath euery other person that is a minister of the word of God but what haue they to do with the kingdoÌ„es of the earth our Sauiour beeing demaunded by Pilate what kingdome it was that hee claimed openly avowed My kingdome is not of this world but the Pope that takes vppon him but to be his Vicar woulde dispose of all the kingdomes in the world Ta. May not the shepheard reclaime the sheepe if he will not be ruled Pa. So he may sell the sheepe to the Butcher if he bee fat but what is that to your Pope woulde you haue him to doe the like by princes I hope you vnderstand Syr Tady that all similitudes be no sylogismes Ta. For all this I cannot thinke it any treason to defende that the pope may lawfully depose any prince for tyrany or heresie Pa. I cannot let you to thinke what you list but I can tell you truly it is treason by the lawes of the Realme to subiect eyther the princes sword or his crowne to the Popes courtes or in any sort to his vsurped power Ta. The time hath beene when Princes might in no wise meddle with ecclesiasticall persons and I warrant you the Pope will neuer giue his consent that any prince of them all shoulde haue lawfull authoritie to punish a priest Pa. God be thanked of a good amendment Princes are beecome to be more wise and I thinke you haue heard of some prety store of your trayterous priestes that haue already hopped as far as from Tyber to Tyburne and there is some hope that shortly more will follow Ta. I haue hearde of some that suffered martyrdome but I know you will say they were executed for treason when in truth it was but for the testimony of their consciences Pa. And if it be a matter of conscience for priests and Iesuites to vndermine a princes estate and to stirre vp their subiectes to rebell to goe about to plucke the crowne from their
Church of God what meant he by the Church the priests or the people Ta. Perhaps hee ment them both aswell the people as the priestes Pa. Canne you finde in any one text of Scripture where the Church is taken for the priestes without the people Ta. But yet the priestes are onely called Churchmen Pa. Why now you haue answered the matter soundly hereafter when they tell vs that the Church doth consist in the whole congregation of the faithfull we may then answer them that the priestes onely were called churchmen and therefore they must commande Kinges and Princes what they must doe and what religion they must establish Ta. It is very true for who should iudge of religion but the Priest Pa. Why then the priest must iudge of truth but the Prince you say may commande for truth and then we are all this while out of our reckoning for if it bee in the princes power to command for truth they will say that our gratious king commaundeth nothing here in Ireland but what Christ hath already commanded and what is established by the word of God and thus we haue brought our hogges to a faire market Ta. But that princes should haue power to compell mens consciences I say is a thing most vnreasonable Pa. And that euery ignorant and obstinate person shoulde make a conscience of euery popish fantazy is a thing most intollerable Ta. Doe you terme it to bee fantasticall that our progenitors haue professed and that we our selues were baptized in Pa. This is your common inchantment wherewith you bewitch a number of seely soules bearing them beleeue that in bap tisme they haue vowed themselues to your Romish religion but in whose name were you baptized was itin the popes or in Peters or in Paules if in no other then in the nameof Christ alone then are you made the sonnes of God and not the slaues and vassels of Rome and as in baptisme you receiued no mans marke but his so you stand bound to regard no mans voyce but his Ta. Yet I say still that it standes with no reason that a prince may forcibly compell any man against his conscience Pa. But I say still that a Prince may forcibly compell his subiectes from Idolatry and heresie to the sincere seruice of God the scriptures doe furnish vs with sundry presidents tending to that purpose amongst the rest take this one Iosiah was highly commended for making the people of Ierusalem all that were â—ound in Israell to serue the Lorde Ta. Iosiah compelled the people to serue the Lorde according to the truth but doth it therefore follow that euery prince may inforce a religion that is but fitting to his owne will and fancie Pa. It doth therefore followe and by the circumstance of the whole chapter it doth appeare that euery christian Prince throughout his realmes and dominions may roote out heresie Idolatry superstition and hauing againe restablished the true and sincere worship of God may compell and inforce his subiects both to obey and submit themselues vnto it Ta. But the religion which we professe is the true auncient Apostolicke religion first deliuered by Christ himselfe vnto Peter and by Peter himselfe to his successors the Bishops of Rome Pa. Indeede your Pope in his doctrine dooth as rightly succeede Saint Peter at Rome as the Turke doth succeed Saint Iames at Ierusalem and as the Scribes and Pharises did Moses in whose chayre they sate when they crucified the Sonne of God Ta. I hope you make no doubt but that the Pope is Saint Peters successor and that the chayre wheron he now sitteth at Rome was first Saint Peters seate Pa. I vnderstand not what you meane by the Popes chayre by Saint Peters seate whether you meane it by any Throne or Tabernacle or by some other Tribunall or what manner of stoole it should be that you call Saint Peters seate Ta. I beleeue you well for Protestants God knowes are not onely ignorant but they are likewise blind and senfeles in those thinges that doth appertaine to the misteryes of the Catholicke Church but for your better satisfaction and to giue you true weeting of Peters Seate what it is you that are so full of scripture cannot be ignorant where Christ in the 23. of Mathewe tolde his Disciples that the Scribes and Pharises did sit on Moses chayre willed them therefore in respect of their place both to heare and beleeue them being as they were successors vnto Moses then the like of Rome where Peter was sometimes Bishop and where he constantly preached Christ crucified must therefore necessarily be the Seate of Peter and this holy Sea of Rome is it which Peter hath left to his successors and we may as truly say that the Pope doth now sit on Peters Seate as Christ told his Disciples that the Scribes and Pharises did sit on Moses Chayre Pa. There haue beene many papistes that haue taken great paynes to proue that Peter was Bishop of Rome but there was yet neuer any one of them coulde make it so apparant but that wee might deny that by good authority that peter was euer at Rome at all but let it be granted that Peter were at Rome doth it therefore follow that the Sea of Rome must be Peters Seate Peter preached in many places before hee came to Rome if euer hee were there at all as it appeareth in the Actes of the Apostles and by the testimonie of your owne Legende Peter was a long time at Antioche and why should not Antioche or any other place where Peter taught and preached challenge a superioritie as far foorth as Rome Ta. I see I must render you a reason for the matter will it please you now to vnderstand that besides Peters being at Rome Peter likewise dyed at Rome and suffered vnder Nero therfore the place more holy and worthy of authoritie Pa. May it please you now to heare me to render you the like reason our Sauiour Iesus Christ was crucified and dyed at Ierusalem for the sinnes of the worlde and therefore in the worke of our redemption his power is more â—ull and ample at the citie of Ierusalem then it is in any other place where he hadde formerly taught and preached You say Protestants are blinded but if papisteswere not both blind and out of their wits besides they would neuer gather such conclusions whereby to vpholde the pride of their pope that be cause Peter was at Rome therefore the Sea of Rome must be Saint Peters seate but how hangeth this together where Christ in the 23. of Mathew tolde his Disciples that the Scribes and Pharises did sit on Moses Chayre what was ment by Moses chayre in this place it could not be meant by the citie of Ierasalem as the papistes would haue Rome to be the Seate of Peter because as they surmise Peter was at Rome but Moses was neuer at Ierusalem neither in the Synagogue neither in the Temple nor in any part of
the country that was neare about it why then the Chayre of Moses which Christ here spake of was nothing else but the doctrine of Moses which hee hadde formerly taught and left vnto them and which Christ in this place willed his Disciples to heare and likewise to followe what the Scribes and Pharises sayd and taught but not to doe as they did to followe their sayinges but not their doinges euen so likewise Peters Seate Peters Keyes and Peters doctrine are all one and the selfe same thing but this doctrine of the preaching of the Gospell your Pope hath abolished at Rome and in the place thereof hee hath set vp the preaching of his owne lawes of his owne decrees and of his owne traditions and therefore he sitteth not on the seat of Peter but in the Seate of Antichrist in the Chayre of pestilence and for Peters comming to Rome it can doe your Pope no good at all he may well bragge a little of the matter but it will not serue his turne Ta. Thus you would conclude that Saint Peters seate consisted in nothing more then in the preaching of the Gospell And by this you woulde depriue him not onely of his Patrimony but also of his Dignity Saint Peter is little beholding to Protestants for of him that was called the Prince of the Apostles they would make him to be but Minimus Apostolorum but if to preach the Gospell be to sit in Peters Seate was it not Peter to whom Christ especially recommended the feeding of his flocke And what is meant by the feeding of the sheepe but the preaching of the word and ministring of the sacraments which as it was commended to Peter especially so it remaineth a precept for euer to the Popes that are his successors And was it not to Peter againe to whom Christ sayd I haue prayd for thee Peter that thy faith might not fayle what malitious impietie then in Protestantes to spurne against that Principality that Christ himselfe hath confirmed not onely to Peter himselfe but to the rest that bee his successors in the holy sea of Rome Pa. First for this prioritie that papistes would so faine ascribe to Peter aboue the rest of the Apostles I say our Sauiour Christ hath long sithens determined when in the 10. of Saint Markes Gospell hee told them that there shoulde bee no precedencie amongst them nor the one to bee accounted more worthy then the other and therefore flatly decreed betweene them that hee that would aspire to be greatest the same should be least now for Saint Peter esteeme him as you please choose how you will account him to be either Maximus or Minimus But what blockishnes is in papists to thinke that because Christ commanded Peter to feede his flocke that this precept therefore was giuen but to Peter himselfe as though that commandement to feede the flocke of Christ did not belong as farre foorth to all the Apostles as it did to Peter I will tell you Syr Tady there is not so simple a minister in the Church of God that hath cure of soules but according to his measure is as straightly tyed to the feeding of Christes flocke as euer was any Pope of Rome or as Peter or as Paul or as any other of the twelue Apostles And now for your Popes that you say are successours vnto Peter if wee shoulde looke into the foode what it is they haue distributed and consider of the diligence they haue vsed in performing this precept thus left vnto Peter we should find that in feeding the sheepe they haue poysoned the pasture they haue infected corrupted it with the venemous leauen of their owne lawes and traditions and in stead of giuing foode they haue fleeced the flocke they haue made a shambles of the sheepe haue murthered and massacred the innocent lambes such hauocke your Popes haue kept amongst the Saintes of God and yet they would be accounted to be Peters successors but what a counterfeit Hypocrite is your Pope that vnder a shew of humility will professe himselfe to be Seruus seruorum and yet will take vpon him to controule and dominere ouer Emperours and Kinges and because Christ hath sayd I haue prayd for thee Peter that thy faith shoulde not fayle therefore say the papistes the Pope cannot erre thus they doe wrest and wrythe holy scriptures to serue their fleshly appetites and as for Saint Peters Patrimonie Saint Peters Seate Saint Peters Keyes Saint Peters Power Saint Peters Authoritie yea and Saint Peter himselfe they are all made props and supporters to vphold the Popes pride Ta. Why how now Patricke what art thou out of thy wittes wilt thou impugne saint Peters authority or wilt thou denie that he hath absolute power both to bind and to loose either in heauen or in earth as Christ himselfe hath giuen and warranted vnto him Pa. I denie him nothing but that he had full power and authority by the preaching of the Gospel both to bind to loose to open and to shut and to doe all thinges in as large and ample maner as eyther Iames or Iohn Philip or Bartholomew or any other of the Apostles whom our Sauiour himselfe after his resurrection armed with equall authority when in the 20. of Iohn he sent them into the world to preach to all nations Ta. Thus I perceiue you can be contented that Peter shoulde march with the rest of the Apostles in equall ranke but you will not admit him any supreame authority Pa. If you can alleadge but any one place of scripture that doth giue vnto Peter any more then the rest you shall finde me apt enough to acknowledge it Ta. Is not this confirmation enough when Peter is the rocke whereon Christ himselfe said he would build his Church Pa. I wonder papistes are not ashamed to vrge that place of scripture so grossely Peter acknowledging Christ to be the sonne of God our Sauiour answered Vppon thisrocke I will builde my Church the Pope would haue the rocke to bee Peter himselfe whereon Christ promised to build his Church when indeede it was the faith of Peter confessing Christ to bee the sonne of God for faith is the rocke whereon Christes Church is built for who is of Christes Church but he onely that beleeueth Christ to bee the sonne of God this faith is it against which the gates of Hel cannot preuaile Ta. What malicious despight is this to depriue Saint Peter of his principalitie giue him some preheminence for shame if it be but because he was the first amongst the Apostles that confessed Christ to be the sonne of God Pa. It is truth Peter was the first amongst the Apostles that confessed Christ to be the sonne of God and so he was the first againe that denyed his master neither doe wee seeke to depryue that blessed Apostle of any pryoritie that the word of God doth allowe him but rather to curtall your Idolatrous Pope who by magnifiyng of Peter woulde thereby exalt himselfe Peters
that is to say notwithstanding my prayer for thee thou thy selfe shalt denie me and thy successors shall be heretickes Idolaters and â—unnagates from me Ta. Make you what cauels you list in this matter I doe conclude that the rulers of the Church must needes haue the holy Ghost Pa. A happy conclusion for him that weares a mytre and by this we may perceiue how probable it is that the Pope can not erre Ta. The Pope is the head of the Church and Christes Vicar generall heere vpon earth and in matters of faith the Pope can not erre Pa. It is truely to bee proued that not onely the Popes but that wholl Councels haue sometimes erred Ta. That a Councell may erre I will not gaine say but for a Pope to be an hereticke were strange to bee told Pa. No wonder at all if your owne stories be true Honorius dyed an hereticke and was accursed after his death for heresie by a generall Counsell Ta. Well if it were so there is but one and one swallow they say maketh no summer Pa. Why then there was one Pope that was a noted heretick but if I should speake of many other abhominations that haue beene committed by Popes sithens your third Bonifacius obteyned from that Paricide Phocas the title of supremacy were infinite to bee spoken of and that the greatest number of your Popes for these 600. yeares last past haue not entered by Canonicall election but by violence sedition corruption and bribery Let your renowmed Abreuiator Apostolicus Platina beare witnes who complaineth The Popedome sayth he was come to that passe that he that could doe most with ambition or bribery he onely obteyned the papall dignitie Ta. This is but one doctors opinion trifles of no account the malicious reportes of heretickes Pa. Then I perceiue one swallow wil make no summer with you nor one doctors opinion receiued in a matter of truth but will you accept of good company what say you to Sigebertus Marianus Scotus Martinus and your holy Abbot Barnarde that haue all of them inucied against your Pope insomuch that Frier Mantuan rayleth at Rome it selfe giuing this admonishment you that wish to liue godly depart from Rome for all thinges are there suffered saue godlines Ta. The Citty of Rome hath beene renowmed both for learning and religion Pa The Citty of Rome is now infamed for all maner of abhomination Ta. Rome beareth the same name shee did 12. hundred yeares agoe and why should shee not chalenge the same vertues which then shee had Pa. Ierusalem was sometimes the holy citty but nowe shee is become a shameles strumpet and Niniuie was spared for her true repentance but sithens confounded for her disobedience Ta. You are so full of scripture Patricke that there is no dealing with you but if your Colledge doth teach this doctrine I can tell you it will cracke your credite amongst your friendes heere in Ireland but that paltry Schoolehouse will doe much harme heere in Ireland it breedeth vpp heretickes apace but if good counsayle might be accepted I could aduise you of such a course that howsoeuer it would be auayleable for your profit I am sure it would much better your credit Pa. Good counsayle comes neuer out of season to a wise man and as he may bee esteemed for a friend that will aduise it so he is no lesse happy that hath wisedome to follow it Ta. Then to shew my selfe a friend vnfeined and to make you happy if you will not front your owne fortune the matter that I would induce you vnto is to spende some three or foure yeares study in any one of the Popes Seminaries where you shoulde find a more readie and exact method maner of teaching then hitherto you haue beene aquainted with all and that forme of education and training vp as your Colledge at Dubline will neuer be able to afford Pa. You meane amongst the Iesuites Ta. I meane amongst the Iesuites that holy societie who for their great learning and godly conuersation are aboue all others most esteemed and renowmed there you shall not onely perfect your owne knowledge with diuine wisedome and vnderstanding but you shall be further enabled for the good of your country where at your returne you shall be receiued and entertained by the best inhabitants not onely of the English people but throughout the whole realme of Ireland who would not only receiue you into their houses but who soeuer did sit at the table your place should sure be aboue the salt Pa. The sum of all is this you woulde haue mee to leaue my studie heere at the Colledge and for the bettering of mine vnderstanding I should trauaile to Rome or to Remes there to bee instructed amongst the Iesuites Ta. You shall there both inrich your minde with knowledge and aduance your credite with a reuerent estimation Pa. Your Iesuites indeede are so famous for their learning that they can make themselues blinde by seeing too much they can set the holy scriptures at a iarre and they are as curious in searching out the vertue of the wordes as they be carefull to subuert the wordes of the truth what is it which they can not vtterly ouerthrow with their fiery blastes of thundering wordes by their engins of Definitions Distinctions Diuisions Sylogismes Figures Allegories then they haue so many generals and specials with such glosinges and expoundings that they will presume to measure Gods word and his workes with their logicall Sophismes The puritie of religion is inspired from aboue and not to be comprehended by diuiding defining compouÌ„ding nor by any other sophisticall manner of contending A miserable and a most vngratious study that doth nothing else but study how to erre Who are they but your Iesuites that haue brought the cause of Christ to a meere brabble of wordes whom neyther the weakenes of their owne cause nor the force of the truth nor the defence thereof so many times approued against them by the Authoritie of holy scriptures can content or disswade them to forsake the way of their contentions but that they are still whetting themselues to trouble the Church of God and to inuey against the truth Ta. You were best to take a little breath Patricke and then you may fall to your rayling againe was there euer a more malicious invectiue breathed out against that holy societi that all the world doth admire aswell for their learning as for their integritie of life Pa. I doe not maruell Sir Tady though the night Owle that hath but a scriking voyce her selfe should sometimes commend the Cuckoe for her sweete and pleasant singing Ta. And the Cuckoe for a plaine song may compare with your Nightingall Pa. So might Pan with Apollo by the iudgement of Midas Ta. I see you are too confident in your owne conceit I wisht you well and I would I coulde haue preuailed with you for your owne good Pa. I am afraid you doe preuaile with too many that by these alurements you
were two bookes first written by Iustus Lypsius wherin he deliuered the Myracles that were performed by our Lady of Hall and by our Lady of Sichem and for this booke intituled The great I heater of the Iesuites honour written by Bonarscius in the defence of Lypsius it hath beene thrice printed within these foure or fiue yeares now last past twice at Antiwarpe and once at Paris with alowance and authoritie in both places and for the better approbation of the matter one other learned father Possiuine a thirde Iesuite who in his Apparatus sacer hath giuen notice to the world that Lypsius did publish such awoâ—ke and giues him speciall commendations for his paynes taking in the Catholicke cause who would thinke now that these bookes could be thus published without controlment but that they are warranted by our holy father himselfe and by the whol Church of Rome for vndoubted truthes But what need I trauell to fetch home myracles from beyond the seas when Ireland it selfe doth so plentifully afforde them that in euery quarter of the Realme What Myracles are continually wrought at Saint Patrickes purgatory at the Holy Crosse at Saint Sondayes well and doth not all the north of Ireland admire the Myracles that haue bin wrought by Saint Colume Kell But let me drawe somewhat neare to your Colledge it selfe are you not eye witnesses howe euery 17. of March what flocking there is of men women and children to that same holy sanctified poole Saynt Patrickes well I hope you doe not thinke the wholl multitude that doe so yearely frequent the place to bee starke mad to come running thither so thicke if they did not finde somesanctitie in the water I warrant you they are not so arrant fooles as a nuÌ„ber of those that do vse to take Tabacco that wil be stil stuffing theÌ„selues with smoak but vpoÌ„ a vaine conceit But is not this a miracle especially to be admired to see so many women Tauerne keepers that for conscience sake wil eate no flesh on Frydaies that some of them do not ride in a Cart on Saturdayes Pa. Syr Tady if these myracles bee any confirmation to your Romish religion I could furnish your store with such like as for the reuerence of the Reader I shame and for the honour of God I feare to speake of But this is a myracle in our eyes to see that the papistes should affye themselues in a religion that is but propped vp with such stuffe as this we do asmuch woÌ„der to see their blindnes that wil be drawne from the truth of Gods word to beleeue such grosse and palpable follyes lyes fables and fantazies of their owne deuising but that the Apostle hath giuen vs this caueat And therefore God shall send them strong delusions that they should beleeue Lyes that all they might be damned which beteeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnes 2. Thes 2. Ta. Do you callthese fables lyes fantasies I cannot tell what that are thus fortified and confirmed vnder these authorities Pa. I say we may boldly pronounce your Romish religion to bee accursed that would bring that blessed Virgin in comparison with God and Iesus Christ thereby eclipsing the glory of Gods mercy and the worthines of Christes satisfaction Ta. If you fall a cursing of those that doe giue honour to the Queene of heauen her selfe what will you pronounce against those that doe both honour and worshippe to the Image of our Lady Pa. Doe not you thinke that the worshipping of Images is flat Idolatry Ta. Yes if you meane the worshipping of the Idoles of the heathen Pa. I meane the Images of the virgin Mary of Peter of Paul or of Christ himselfe Ta. Doe you call the Image of Christ an Idoll Pa. If it be worshipped it is an Idoll and the burning of Incense vnto it is flat Idolatry Ta. Dare any damned hereticke auouch this Pa. It is approued by the second commandement Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image nor the likenes of any thing that is in heauen aboue or in the earth beneath Ta. But doth this precept touch the Image of Christ or our blessed Lady Pa. It toucheth any thing that is made with handes that is worshipped bowed or kneeled vnto Ta. This can not bee vnderstoode of the Image of the true God for if the Images of Princes may be reuerenced and no Idolatry committed much more the Image of God Pa. Earthly similitudes of mans owne making must not controle the heauenly preceptes of Gods owne giuing the Images of Princes of those meaner personages may well bee tollerated and yet to bowe the knee to lift vp the hand or to doe worshipp to such an Image there is no doubt but it were Idolatry God hath commaunded and that directly that no grauen Image should be made now if any grauen Image of God might be worshipped why might it not bee made since it cannot bee worshipped before it bee made Ta. O monstrous abhomination what an heresie is this that the Image of the true God should be accounted for an Idoll Pa. The Image of the true God being made with handes is a false God and no likenes of his but a lewde and a foolish imagination of those that would so imagine it for what resemblance hath a dead stocke or a stone fashioned like a man and painted or gilded ouer to the glorious inuisible and infinite maiesty of the euer liuing God and how dare any man defend the worshipper of such an Image when God himselfe hath accursed the maker Ta. Idolatries be those when they be done to the Images theÌ„selues but our worshippings are not such for wee worshippe not the earthly matter or shape but rather the things that are represented by them Pa. So did the Israelites when they set vpp the golden Calfe to testifie their thankfullnes for their deliuerance out of Egypt they erected an Image vnto God their deliuerer and proclaymed a holy day not to the Calfe but to the Lord. Ta. May we not giue some reuerence to the Image of Christ though he be in heauen aswell as you do to the Thrones and Letters of Princes when themselues be not present Pa. What grosser Idolatry may be committed if wee may not worship the creatures theÌ„selues that are the workes of Gods handes and yet will adore and worship those Images and Idols that are but the workes of mens handes Ta. Is is not acceptable vnto GOD to haue the shape of his Sonne alwayes before our eyes that we may the rather honour him in our hearts Pa. And sith without Images we must remember the Father that made vs which cannot be resembled to any similitude why should we forget the Sonne that hath redeemed vs but wee must haue an Image at our elbowe to put vs in remembrance Ta. It is testified that the Apostles themselues did both make and worshippe Images Pa. It had neede be a stronge testimonye that should confirme that for a certayne
is enough they both of them ac knowledge a reall presence to the mouth and teeth but nowe comes Bonauenture he affirmeth flatly that he is no lesse present in the stomacke then he is in the mouth marry whether he goes downe to the belly or noe he stands in doubt because of the diuersitie of opinions that are holden and yet he liketh not That the body of Christ should go into the belly of a mouse or be cast forth by the drought And heere hee sheweth a Catholicke reason why Because the eares of well disposed persons would abhorre that and heretickes and Infidels would iest at it and laugh vs to scorne that would defend it But Alexander de Hales in despight of heretickes and infidels both doth confidently affirme that if a dogg or a hogg should eate the wholl consecrated Host is no cause sayth he but the Lordes body should goe there withall into the belly of that dogg or hogg But now amongst the rest blessed Thomas Aquinas that holy Saint doth sharpely reproue those that thinke contrary Some haue sayd sayth he that as soone as the sacrament is taken of a mouse or a dog straight way the body blood of Christ doth cease to be there but this is a derogation to the truth of this Sacrament Pa. But tell mee truth Syr Tady haue you not wronged those Authors that you haue heere named haue you cited their words no other wise then they themselues haue set them downe Ta. Now God and our blessed Lady defend that I shoulde so iniurie them it were a shame for mee to belie them their owne workes are extant and to bee seene and there are a huge swarme of others a wholl sect of Thomistes that doe vphold all these positions enough to make all the protestants that be in Ireland to blush but that they are past shame But amongst the rest and for the better credit to the cause Antonius Arch-Bishop of Florence and Petrus de á¹—ludo ioyned both together affirming that the body of Christ may not onely bee eaten of a mouse but also it may be vomited vp by the mouth and purged downe to the draught these bee their owne wordes Therefore the body and bloud of Christ remayne in the belly or stomacke or vomit or in whatsoeuer course of nature so long as the shews of bread and wine remaine if they be vomitted or purged before they be altered as sometimes with those that are troubled with the flux euen there is the body of Christ Pa. O peace Syr Tady no more for the shame of your selfe of all the papistes in the worlde bee these the nuttes you haue to cracke O loathsome stuffe vnfitte to be spoken of mine cares doe glow to heare these grosse and barbarous repetitions is this the reall presence that you so much striue for are these the learned authorities which you so highly extoll call you these Saintes that doe teach such filthy and loathsome diuinitie no maruel though you account traytors for martyrs when your Pope hath such cunning to make Saints of blasphemers Ta. I tell thee true that some of these that I haue named are Saints Canonized by the Church of Rome and for the diuinitie they haue taught and spread if it were not sound religious and holy doe you thinke it could passe as it doth ratified confirmed and approued by the mother Church so many yeares vncorrected or vncontrould But I cannot blame ye though you blush you may well bee ashamed to see our holy Masse that so many heretickes doe seeke to impugne howe it is established vpholden and fortified by no meane nor simple authoritie I warrant yee Pa. I see indeed that those that haue no regard of their coÌ„scieÌ„ces before God haue lesse care of their credites before men but it is time to giue ouer reasoning with papistes when they seeke out such nuttes as these be for protestants to cracke and some other busines calling me away I will therefore leaue you Ta. Well Patricke then for a parting blowe let me aduise thee yet a little for thine owne good be not obstinate but be ruld by me it shall be for thy benefit Pa. What is it sir Tady to forsake my religion to turn papist Ta. A papist as you cal it but in truth a true christian aâ—â—â—coÌ„ciled childe to the Catholicke Church thou shalt thereby shewe thy selfe to be a naturall Hibernian where now thou remainest a steine to thy country what an Irishman a protestant it is Rara auis in terris I will tell thee Patricke and I will tell thee truely thou wert better to be reputed a traitor to the King then to be accounted as thou art thus open mouthed against the Pope the one perhaps may find some fewe enemies to prosecute him but the other shall find euery man readie to persecute him Pa. Syr Tady when I meane to turne traytor to the King I will followe your counsayle I will turne papist Ta. And vntill thou dost show thy selfe to be a professed papist indeede thou shalt find little friendshippe in Ireland And so farewell FINIS