These thyngs haue been doone among the heathen whose goddes were no gods but deuyls and that by the permission and suffrance of God because of their horrible idolatry that they dyd most shamefully wallow in But it foloweth not that the lyke may be done among the people of God Philalethes Answer It is moste manyfeste and playne that God doth permit and suffer Sathan to worke suche thynges among his people For dothe not God geue vnto false Prophetes power to worke miracles Deute 19. that so he may try and proue his people whether their loue him or not And whether they will stedfastly cleaue vnto his lawes And least it shold be said that this was don amoÌ„g the Iewes but that it is otherwise in the churche of Christ we haue an excellent prophecie of the holy apostle wher he saith on this maner 2. Thes 2 Than shall the wycked man be reuealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirite of his mouth and shal abolishe with the bryghtnesse of his coÌ„ming eueÌ„ him whose coÌ„miÌ„g is by the woorkyng of Sathan with all power and signes and lying wonders And in all deceauablenesse of vnrightuousnesse emong theim that perishe because they receaued not the loue of the truthe that they myght bee saued And therfore god shal send them strong delusion that they should beleue lyes that all they might be damned whiche beleued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrightuousnesse Do we not lerne by these words of thapostle that in the later days there shall be wonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichriste And doubtlesse There bee vvonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichrist as they are by the rightous iudgement of God ordeined for to deceiue them that haue a delight in vnrightuousnesse so doo they also take away sicknesses and diseases that the vngodly contemners of the truth may the more be blynded and confirmed in their error Are not also these Christes wordes Many shall say to me in that day Lorde haue we not by thy name prophecied he we not by thy name cast out deuils and doone or wrought great miracles And theÌ„ will I confesse to them I neuer knew you Depart ye from me ye workers of iniquitie Mat. 24. And in an other place There saith he shall arise false Christes and false prophetes and shal shewe great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they shoulde deceaue the very elect It doeth sufficiently appeare by this that many times it cometh to passe not onely among the heatheÌ„ and Iewes but also in the chirche of God that by the inuocation of them that are no Goddes not a fewe haue ben and are healed Yet no man ought thervppon to conclude that it is laufull in the time of trouble to call vpon any other than vppon the true lyuyng God all creatures be they neuer so excellent beyng layde asyde Similitude Procreation of children doth not excuse vvhooredome no more doth the vvorking of miracles excuse the idolatrous inuocatioÌ„ of Saincts Eutrepelus I am of this opinion that miracles doo no more excuse the inuocation and worshippyng of Saintes than the conception gettyng or procreation of children can excuse adulterie whoredome although it be a miracle that the child is conceiued in the mothers woÌ„be that there it is norished and fed and at lengthe in his due tyme brought forth into the worlde and suche a myracle as can onely be doone and wrought by the diuine vertue and power of God Likewise he that stealeth bread or meat if he do eate it he shal bothe take away his hunger and also feede his bodye though this vertue and power to feede the body doeth onely perteyne to God Shall we therfore excuse whooredom adulterie and theft Didymus No maÌ„ I trow will be of that mynde Eutrapelus Howe can then the inuocation of Sainces which the whole scripture dooeth disauouche be excused by shewyng or workyng of myracles Therfore when thei say why should we not call vpon the Saintes sithe that many as we se dayly by experieÌ„ce haue ben bothe healed and also deliuered from the perills and dangers that they were in by that meane It is euen as if the horemoÌ„ger shold say Why shuld I not cleaue vnto a harlot sith the I do aswell get childreÌ„ of her as of a laufull wife or as if that these shuld likewise say Why should I toyle or labor sith that by stealyng I can helpe my necessitie nede As then it is not laufull for any man to seke to haue childreÌ„ by adultery and whoredom although meÌ„ may haue issu that way nor yet by pickyng stealing to helpe the necessities of his body althogh many do lyue by theft but it is the part of an honest maÌ„ to seke to haue issue by honest matrimonie wedlock by due labor to get his liuing so it is the dutie of a true christeÌ„ maÌ„ The abolishing of the similitude in what trouble peril or daÌ„ger so euer he be to seke for help deliueraÌ„ce not by the vnlauful calling vpon the dead Saints althogh many haue receaued their helth by it but by the faithful inuocation only of the true lyuing eternall god And as an honest man had lieffer to bee withoute childreÌ„ than to get them in aduoutrie whoredome Similitude and to byte his bread verye nere rather than to lyue by thefte and other vnlaufull meanes so he that feareth God vnfeignedly hath lieffer to suffer any kynde of affliction than to seke for healpe and deliuerance by the forbidden inuocatioÌ„ of dead creatures Albion Wel I graunt that the dead Sainctes ought not to bee called vppon as gods I meane that they ought not to be called vpon as thoughe they their selues should help vs A good Chift of the papistes â–ª in our troubles and aduersities but that wee ought to call vpon them as beyng our mediators aduocates and intercessors which doo make intercession vnto God for vs. Philalethes Where I pray you brother Albion haue ye learned this diuinitie So are we wont always to excuse the want or lacke of faith Whâ— doo we not rather praye vnto God out heauenly Father sith that in so many places he wil haue vs so for to doo Albion Iohn 9. Obie 4. Because we are sinners And ye know what the scripture saith Peccatores noÌ„ andâ—r Deus God heareth not synners but them that are obedient to his will Philalethes That we are sinners we haue that coÌ„mune with al mortall men For Answer 8 King â— 1 Iohn 1. A difference betâ—ixt sinners there is no man that synneth not And if we shold say We haue no sin we deceaue our selues and the truthe is not in vs. But this difference dothe the scriptures puâ—fe betwixte synners that some are always ready to â—â—pâ—nt whensoeuer they be eyther by the outwarde preachyng of Gods word or by the inwarde motion of the holy ghost moued therto and some agayne wyll neuer
his sonne after him and established Ierusalem Now this is asmuch as if he had saied Therefore God dyd not destroy Abiah his kyngdome and the citie of Hierusalem because that God had promised that he would not take away his mercy from the house of Dauid nor suffer that he should want sede or posteritie or that his kingdom shold vtterly decaye It is then euident and plaine that Abiah was spared for the promise sake that was made vnto Dauid 4. Kin. 19 therfore it must folowe necessarily that Ezechias was also spared for this promise sake and that these sentences or sayenges I will defend this citie for myne own sake and for Dauid my seruauntes sake and I will defende this citie for myn own sake for myn own promisse sake which I made vnto Dauid be equipollent or of one force Secondly thus may the answer be made that God did spare bothe that city realm for his owne sake and for his Christes sake For the Prophetes are wont by a figure called Antonomasia to cal our sauiour Iesu Christ Dauid Antonomasia And the promise wherof we spake before was in very deede completed or fulfylled in Christ Thus dothe the Lord speake in Ezechiell I will sayeth he raise vp a shepeheard ouer them Eze 34. and he shal fede them euen my seruant Dauid he shall fede them he shal be their shepheard And I the Lord will be their God and my seruant Dauid shal be the prince among them I the Lorde haue spoken it Hie. 23. The like place shall ye fynde in Ieremie But none of all the expositors dyd expounde these places otherwyse than of Christ the Gospell of Iohn doothe manifestely declare that these Scriptures oughte to be expounded of Christ Therefore the Lorde spared Hierusalem for the Lorde Iesu Christes sake whome it behoued to be manifested in that citie and his name and doctrine frome thens to bee published throughout all the whole world Therfore Daniell the prophete prayeng vnto the Lorde for the repairing of the citie and of the temple Danie 9. maketh his praier after this sort Heare O our God the prayer of thy seruaunt make thy face to shyne ouer the sanctuarie whiche is destroyed for the lorde sake As yf he shoulde say Oure maners oure life and conuersation did deserue other wyse but yet remembre the lorde thy Christ whome thou hast promysed vnto vs. Esa 2. For by Esaie and Micheas he hadde made this promise It shal be in the laste dayes that the mountayne of the house of the lorde shall bee prepared in the toppe of the mountains and shall bee exalted aboue all the hylles and all nations shall slow vnto it And many people shall go and saye Come and lette vs come vp to the mountaine of the lorde to the house of the God of Iacob and he will teache vs his wais and we wille walke in his pathes for the lawe shall go foorthe of Sion and the woorde of the lorde frome Hierusalem Whenne we doo then by Dauid vnderstande oure sauioure Iesu Christe who in Esaie is of GOD called his seruaunt we brynge no newe exposition nor yet wraste the Scriptures but sette foorthe the playne sense and meanyng of the holy ghoste to the greate commendation of the glorie of oure Sauioure Iesu Christe Albion Obie 16 Iob. â— These woordes shall ye fynde written in Iob Calle nowe yf any wyll answere thee and turne thee to somme of the Sainctes Here are we expressely commaunded in oure troubles and afflictions to turne our selues to the saintes Didymus I thought that there had bene no place in all the whole scriptures so playne for the praying vnto the Sainctes as the sames is Answer The fondnes of the aduersaries in aleaging of the scriptures Philalethes And I thought that the ennemies of the truthe had neuer ben so foolishe as to haue aleaged that place for the maintenaunce and confirmation of their doctrine For there they shoote altogether besydes the cusshion not marking to what ende Eliphas dooth speake those woordes Ye shall therfore vnderstand that Iob didde affirme that plagues and calamities dyd not alwayes happen for synne whiche thynge he proueth by his exaumple The true seÌ„se of the place that they do aleadge out of the .5 of Iob For the Lorde sayth he hath not brought me into this calamitie because of my sinnes but accordyng to his good wil and pleasure This will not his aduersaries admitt and specially Eliphas who goeth aboute to proue that no calamitie hapneth to any man but onely for his sinnes and that no man is punished but onely for his faulte prouyng besydes that all men are synners and that no man is cleane in the syght of God although few do acknowledge the same geuyng in the meane whyle a priuie nippe vnto Iob although he did not acknowledge himself to be a sinner and this was because he vnderstoode not Iobs meaning and therfore they wer taken awaye and cut of in their ignorance That this might be made more plaine and manifest he speaketh vnto Iob after this maner Call any man that is name me any maÌ„ As if he shold say Bring me any man that hath not by his wyckednesse and heynous synnes deserued the calamitie that is com vppon him turne thee to any of them that be called Saintes meanyng that it was impossible for to fynde any in all the whole world which did not deserue by his owne sinnes to haue trouble aduersitie and affliction Albion Obie 17 Hiero. 15. What will ye say to these woordes of Hieremie Though Moses and Samuell stoode before me yet haue I no heart to this people Why say my geÌ„tylmen should Hieremie speake so of the deade excepte be knowe that they made intercession for the lyuyng Philalethes Answer I may a great deale better reason after this maner Sith that neither Moses nor Samuell dyd praye for the people of Israell in that extreme peryll that they were in it appereth that there was then no intercession of the deade For who of all the Sainctes should haue takne thought for the people if Moses didde not Who in this thyng dyd exceede and passe all men whiles he dyd lyue Therefore thus I say I myght make myne argument agaynst you and your gentylmen In the extreeme necessitie of the people Moses made no intercession for theim it is moste lykely then that none at all dyd make intercession for theim The 〈◊〉 mâ—â—â—t of the papists 〈…〉 and beaten 〈◊〉 on â—â—eir heades sithe that Moses dyd passe al men in humanitie gentilnesse and mercy The meanyng of the prophete then was this that God was so offended with the people that he wold in no wise spare them though Moyses and Samuell whose prayers he was wonte to heare aboue all other should make intercession for them The like in a maner haue we in the prophete Ezechiell Ezâ—â—4 where the lorde speaketh on this maner If Noah
saye Praise God in his Sainctes The beâ—st liâ—â—s of the papists in aleaging the scriptures Philalethes Who wold not laughe at the beastlynesse of these blynde bussardes for if they will haue this sayeng Prayse the Lorde in his saynctes to bee lyke vnto this Call vpon the saâ—nctes of the Lorde then by as good reason we may say That the trumpette the viole and the harpe c. oughte to bee called vppon For it foloweth immediately after Prayse hym in the sounde of the trumpette in the violle and in the harpe But the Catholike veritie and truth dothe bothe reade and vnderstande the wordes of the prophete after this sorte Prayse the Lorde in his sanctuarie or in his hoynesse that is Prayse hym that dwelleth in heauen Psal 134. For in an other place he sayth Lifte vp youre handes vnto the sanctuary and praise the lord Whyche is as muche as yf he shoulde haue sayde Lyfte vp your handes vnto heauen and prayse the Lorde and geue hym thankes for his benefittes Whervnto the addeth with what instruments they wer wont to stirre vp the hertes of the people to sing prayses to be thankefull vnto the Lorde But nowe vnder Christ suche ceremonies of the olde lawe are cleane abolyshed Ob e. 20 aâ—â— 3 Didy I remembre that ones this place of Baruch was alleadged for the mayntenaunce of the inuocation of the Saintes O Lorde god almyghtie the God of Israell heare nowe the prayers of the dead Israelites and of their childreÌ„ which haue sinned before the and haue not hearkened vnto the voyce of thee their God therfore these plagues hang vpon vs. Albion If ye had not preuented me Answer I wolde haue alleged the same place For it seemeth vnto me to make muche for the purpose Of vvhat maner dead Baruch doth speak Philalethes Ye muste marke brother Albion that Baruch in his prayer speketh not of them that were dead with the bodyly deathe but of the wicked whiche lyuyng vnto the worlde were deade vnto God whiche figuratiue maner of speakynge is oftentimes vsed in the scriptures For in the gospell our sauiour Iesus Christ doothe saie Math. 8. Suffer the dead to burye their dead As if he shoulde saye Lette the worldlings that be dead to God and good woorkes burye theim that bee departed oute of this lyfe for that is an office moste mete for them but doo the thinges that be for the lyuing The like phrase or maner of speaking dooth the holy apostle vse 1. Tim. 5. when he sayth A wydowe lyuyng in delitiousnesse though she be alyue yet she is deade It is also oftentimes sene that in the thirde person we be wont to speake of our selues Baruch besydes by such kynde of wordes doothe sette foorthe the myserable estate of the childerne of Israell whiche were euen as deade menne here in the worlde because of their captiuitie and thraldome and straicte bondage or slauerie that they were in whych was vnto theym as a graue or pytte that the dead bee buried in Weyghe and consyder well the circumstances of the place and ye shall fynde it to bee so Didymus Obiec 11 2. Mach. 15 And what wyll ye say to this place of the seconde booke of the Machabees where we reade that Iudas Machabeus dyd see in a dreame Onias the prieste and Hieremie the prophete praying for the people whereof he was so sure that he tolde his dreame to the people to encourage theim withall against the terroure of theyr ennemyes PHILALETHES Answer This place hath neyther commaundemente nor yet sufficient exaumple but is onely a vysyon or dreame whereby it was represented that the people of the Iewes shoulde not bee forsaken of God For yf so bee that it had sette foorth the Intercession of Saynctes Iudas Machabeus woulde haue commended hymselfe vnto the praier of Onias and Hieremie whiche thyng he dothe note but in his greate danger and perill he fleeth vnto the true liuyng God onely saying O Lorde thou that didst send thyne aungell in the tyme of Ezechias kyng of Iuda who in the host of Sennacherib slewe an hundreth fourescore and fiue thousand Send new also thy good angell before vs O Lord of heauens The praier of Iudas Machabaeus for a feare and dread vnto them And let them be discoÌ„fited by the strength of thyne arme whiche come againste thyne holy people to blaspheme Howebeit no man coulde iustly blame me if I shold vtterly reiecte the place that is alleadged out of Baruch and oute of the seconde booke of the Machabees sithe that they be no Canonicall bokes but playne Apocryphes as in our talke of purgatorie it hath been sufficientely proued Reade the 3 dialogue of my huntyng of purgatorie vnto death and specially in the beginning of the thirde communication so that I shall haue no nede to repete the thyng any more sithe that all our talke touching that matter is set foorth in print Eutrapelus Me thynke it were a fonde thyng to grounde any doctrine vpon a dreame It is no vvisdâ—m to â—round any doctrin â—pon a dreame specially vpon such a dreame as the like is not ones mencioned of in all the whole bodye of the Canonicall scriptures Iudas Machabeus did think also in this his dreame that Hieremye dyd delyuer vnto him a golden sworde wherwith he should wound the aduersaries As he thenne receaued a golden swoord of Hieremie so did Onias and Hieremie pray for the people but he receaued onely the sworde in a dreame it foloweth then that the prayers of these holy men were also dreamish Philalet Adde therto these wordes of saint Augustine Augu cont a gaudenâ—◠〈…〉 li. 2. cap 1â— Non debemus quicquid in scâ—ipturis etiam dei testimonio laudatos homines fecisse legimus consentiendo approbare sed consyderando discernere adhibentes iuditium non sanc nostrae authoritatis sed scripturarum diuinarum That is to say we ought not to approue by consentyng whatâ—oeuer we reade to haue bene done by men though they be praised by the testimonie of the scriptures but with consyderyng to discern it bryngynge the iudgemente not of oure owne authoritie but of the holy scriptures By these wordes we do learn that we are not bound to folow whatsoeuer we fynd in the Scriptures to haue ben don by the men of God but fyrst we must try by the word of God whether it be well doon or not Albion Obie 22 Yet father Origen dooth alleadge this place for to proue the Inuocation of Sainctes by These are his woordes whyche ye shall fynd written in one of his fower homilies which are founde by by after the commentaries of Hierome whych he hath writen vpon Ecclesiastes Sed omnes sancti Origenes super cantâ—ca de precibus sanctorum in coelo qui de hac vita decesserunt habentes adhuc charitatem erga eos qui in hoc mundo sunt si dicantâ—r curam gerere salutis eorum