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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78447	The censures of the church revived. In the defence of a short paper published by the first classis within the province of Lancaster ... but since printed without their privity or consent, after it had been assaulted by some gentlemen and others within their bounds ... under the title of Ex-communicatio excommunicata, or a Censure of the presbyterian censures and proceedings, in the classis at Manchester. Wherein 1. The dangerousness of admitting moderate episcopacy is shewed. ... 6. The presbyterian government vindicated from severall aspersions cast upon it, ... In three full answers ... Together with a full narrative, of the occasion and grounds, of publishing in the congregations, the above mentioned short paper, and of the whole proceedings since, from first to last.	Harrison, John, 1613?-1670.; Allen, Isaac, 17th cent.	1659 (1659)	Wing C1669; Thomason E980_22; ESTC R207784	289,546	380

the Reader for his more full satisfaction may ●ee upon his perusall Pag. 47 48. The Authors of the Jus divinum regiminis ecclesiastici do urge the Argument for the Divine right of ruling Elders Office from this Text more fully and do very learnedly and elaborately vindicate it from twelve severall exceptions that are made against it by those that do oppose it from Pag. 150. to pag. 169. and whereunto for his more full satisfaction we do refer the Reader We shall forbear to mention what is further urged either by the Provinciall Assembly of London out of the Old Testament and New or by the rest of the Authors we have quoted in our former Answer or by the Author of the Assertion of the Government of the Church of Scotland that fully and learnedly discussed this Point some years before to prove the Office of ruling Elders to be by divine right We conceive by this account given it is manifest enough unto the unprejudiced Reader that the learned Labours of our reverend Brethren in this matter and their Arguments urged from these very Texts that we alledged were not so contemptible but that they might have merited a better answer when we referred you to them then to have been turned off as not worth the weighing because they are but of Yesterday And however our pains be accounted of by you in transcribing out of them what we have done yet we hope it will not be esteemed useless by judicious and sober persons such who never have seen the Labours of our Brethren in this kind having this advantage by it that they have a tast given them of what is more at large sayd by feverall reverend learned and godly Divines for the Divine right of that Office that is so much despised and hereby have some direction given them where they may find this truth more fully vindicated as they also that are acquainted fully with their Labours may reap this Fruit by what we have recited that the memory of what they knew before will hereby be revived and hence it may be to both sufficiently manifest that so much is spoken touching this matter that it will not be to any great purpose to add any more But now let us consider what you oppose unto all that is said by the Authors we quoted for the Jus divinum of the Presbyterian Government and particularly of the Office of ruling Elders In the first place we take notice that when we said We could not part with the ruling Elders unless we should betray the truth of Christ as we judged by this Parenthesis you gather that we are not so wedded to the opinion but that we can and will submit to better reason when offered to us Unto which we say That we are ready to hear what you or any others shall present unto us for the clearing up the mind and will of God in this or any other point in Controversie amongst such as are godly sober and Orthodox in the main points of Christian Religion And if you will not wilfully and pertinaciously hold a contrary Tenent as you profess or at least a Tenent contrary to what your Principles might allow you there would be the greater hopes that you would cease the debate touching this matter But before we can be convinced that the ruling Elder is not an Officer of Jesus Christ held forth in those Texts that we quoted we must have far stronger reasons brought then you urge although you profess that you will proceed to shew us that Lay-Elders as you mistake them are not meant nor mentioned in those Texts by us alledged Here is indeed much undertaken but little performed And however you promise to do this hereafter more largely if what is comprehended in this Paper be not judged satisfactory yet in your next wherein you would make shew as if you had given in a full reply to our Answer you perform nothing So easiea matter is it with you to undertake great things and fall short in your performances But we must here needs tell you that if you will indeed satisfie us you must perform more then onely as here you do send us to the Fathers in generall or more particular Councils or the Fathers apart and which you will have to be the onely sure rule for the interpretation of Scriptures though how soundly this is asserted by you will come to be examined in our answer to your next Paper neither must you think that the bare allegation of the exposition of some Fathers for we are not wholly destitute of the testimony of them touching the matter in controversie as we shall shew anon ought to be of that weight with us as that they should be forthwith received as the certain interpretations of these Texts against the Arguments that are urged from them by moderne Synods and Assemblies learned and able Divines Expositers of the Scriptures both of our own and other reforned Churches for that interpretation of them which we close with and whereof we have given account already in part And yet we are far from contemning either Fathers or Councils but shall give them all that due respect that our truly Protestant Divines have given them in their Writings against the Papists as we do heartily wish that you had not expressed your selves especially in your next Paper to be too Popish in respect of that Authority which you profess they are in with you which yet is an honour given them that they themselves would have disavowed and of which afterwards more fully In the mean season you have not dealt fairly with Calvin in fathering upon him what he doth not say though in your Printed Copy you cover the matter not quoting the place where he should assert any such thing as you alledge him for The thing you charge upon him in both is one and the same Your words are these Calvin saith there can be no better nor surer remedy of deciding of controversies no better sense nor interpretation of Scripture then what is given by the Fathers in such Councils The places you quote in that Copy you presented unto us are those in his Institutions Lib. 4. cap. 9. Sect. 8. 13. But in these places there is nothing that can with any colour be alledged to make out what you charge upon him In the 8. Sect. it is confessed he would not have all Councils condemned and the Acts of them all rescinded as we are far from desiring any such thing but he saith Quoties concilii alicujus decretum profertur expendi primum diligentur velim quo tempore habitum sit qua de causa habitum quo concilio quales homines interfuerint deinde illud ipsum de quo agitur ad Scripturae amussim examinari idque in eum modum ut concilii definitio pondus suum habeat sitque instar praejudicii neque tamen examen quod dixi impediat You may here perceive that as he would not have the determinations of

every Marsyas with an old Pipe of Minerva's dares contend with Apollo that men of low and cheap abilities are too loud and too hard for men of the choicest and best design certainly Inertia pro sapientia erit He 's the best Orator that dwels in silence and he 's the wisest man that keeps the privacy and recluseness of his own ville Hannibal once told Scipio that it had been better both for Rome and Carthage if both of them had been contented within their own bounds and possibly it had been more honourable both for our Brethren of the Presbytery and our selves had we made our lists more private and plaid our prizes only behind the Curtains for so we had confined and determined our ignorance to our own sphere and our defects had been visible to no eyes but our own But as Antalcidas objected to Agesilaus The Spartans have made the Thebanes fight whether they would or no the exasperations and bitterness of our Brethren have lent cowards courage and provoked us to combate whether we would or no. Miserum est pati nec licere queri 'T is a hard case to be hurt and to have our mouths stopt to suffer and to be obleiged not to complain Qui unam patitur injuriam invitat aliam 'T is a certaine rule with the men of this perswasion if you take a blow from them on one cheek you cannot be Christians in their Calender unless you turn the other also We had well hoped that what Tully notes to be the eloquence of Atticus Respondere sciat me sibi dum taceo our silence and our patience might have been good Orators for us to have Answered the pretensions of their power the disguises of their popular discourses and their harsh proceedings towards us but the more we suffered they triumphed the more and because it was our judgement and choice to dwell in silence they thought we either could not or durst not speak But nemo nobis amicis uti potest Adulatoribus They shall find we are their Friends but not their Parafites we will speak that truth which we understand beseech the good spirit to lead them and us into all truth and in this mean and inconsiderable service we appeal to the 1000 witnesses within us that we speak nothing out of pride or envy or with unchristian reflections upon our sufferings but with a hearty desire of peace that they or we may be convinc'd and at last meet by a unity of the spirit in the bond of peace We shall not present the Rooms and modell of the whole house in the Porch yet we shall preface a recitall of those grievances which made us open our mouths in this discourse Ne extorqueretur nobis causa Lucii Cottae patrocinio lest we might seem to fear the Giant of Presbytery and to thinke it were only that Palladium that would preserve the City of God About seavenmonths since the Classis of Manchester publisht their Breviats or censures against all that came not in to them for triall and examination wherein they go to the high waies and compell all to come in and give submission to their Government by subjecting themselves to examination by the Ministers and Elders not only such as may be suspected to be ignorant or scandalous but all of all elevations of all judgments must come under the Inquisition not so much we fear to fit them for the Sacrament as to teach them obedience that they may know themselves as Tiberius said of the Senate that they are homines ad servitutem nati to owe an obedience to their new Masters which they must pay under the grand penalties of suspension and excommunication In answer to these Bruta fulmina we with all meeknesse and humility sent them one single sheet of Paper desiring satisfaction in some things wherein our reason and Religion obliged us to be of a different judgment from them This one sheet they return'd in seven an answer long enough if it be sound enough To satisfie us in our scruples and in their proceedings they pretend for what they do both an Ecclesiasticall and civill sanction a Commission from Christ and the State also But that maxime of the ancient will here be found true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Our own Laws built upon passion and interest are commonly lawless It is apparent to us that their new Lights have no light from Antiquity or Primitive forms that their new Rules have no establishment either by the Laws of the Christian Church or the Laws of this Land St. Jerome said of Origen That ingenii sui acumina putat ecclesiae esse Sacramenta an imagination sure of our Presbyters that the placita of their own wils must pass for civill and divine constitutions We wonder that men pretending to Learning and Religion should not only call in the Lord of truth to abett the the phansies of men but should also pretend to encouragement and Commissions from the State to second their prevarications It hath pleased his Highness in his wisdome and clemency to secure all godly and peaceable men professing Jesus Christ from those Ordinances which the rigour of Presbytery had mounted against them but where he gives the least incouragement for this power usurped by them we find not and therefore we thinke 't is friendly advice that they take heed least their unguided zeal or interest precipitate them into a Premunire since under colour of authority they have made Laws and Canons and published them openly in the Church for all to obey upon pain of excommunication not only against all the ancient known Laws of elder date but also contrary to the present establishment and the Magistracy under which we now live 'T is a trouble to us to hear them cry out against Prelacy and Episcopacy as only an artificiall and politicall device to Lord it over Gods inheritance whereas indeed their little fingers are heavier then the Prelates loines though they tell us their way is friendly meek and a sociall way we find it not they make us only as Publicans and Heathens it should seem that all that they intended in the change of Church Government was only to slice the Diocesan into Parochiall Bishops and with him in Lucian To cut out the old useless Moons into fine new Stars every one of which claime the same influence and dominion over the people which the Prelates did 'T is a trouble to us to hear them inveigh against Hereticks and Schismaticks against the Novatian and Donatists of old when they walk in their steps maintain their principles and espouse their quarrels We are told by the Church Historians That the Doctrine against mixt-communion was a Brat gotten by Novatus nurst up by Lucifer and Audius but it grew not till Donatus became its foster Father then indeed it flourisht and spread amain till St. Austin by his judicious and clear opposition did banish it that and the subfequent ages the Anabaptists

Committee unto the next Classe and Mr Mosely consented thereunto promising that he would desire Mr. Allen and some others of the Gentlemen to be at the next Classe to conclude about the same May 11. 1658. Mr Allen Mr. Mosely and others came according to their promise upon their motion that they might have liberty to take some out of the bounds of the Class to treat on their part with us the Class condescended thereunto and before they departed the men were nominated on both sides that should treat of the matters aforesaid The time place for the meeting was referred by their consent till Mr. Heyrick should return from London he being one nominated on our part and they professing a desire that he should be one in the business If they had such a report to make of what concerned us as we have of them they would not stick to say that the words of our mouths were peace while warre was in our hearts but we leave God and the Reader to judge with what hearts they could agree upon an accommodation and do as they forthwith did While matters stood just thus between us the next Class Mr. Heyricke not being returned before the Class after in July we found the Papers in Print Upon this we appointed a Committee that time to take the matter into consideration and they sent a Letter to Mr. Allen to desire to know of him under his hand whether he owned the Printing or no The Letter you have in the other Columne Which Letter was taken to him forthwith He told the Messenger he would wait upon Mr. Heyricke to whom the Answer was to be returned the next day which he accordingly did and brought Mr. Mosely with him He said he knew not of the Printing of the Papers and therefore had brought Mr. Mosely who could give the account of this amicable Office of Printing all the Papers whilst an accommodation was on foot Mr Mosely said something to Mr. Heyricke that it should be reported that he should say that he could wish all the Papers were burnt and so to vindicate themselves that they distrusted not their Papers they Printed them to the world Which Answer of his if it had come or the like from us it should have been called silly and poore if not worse But for those words which he spake we know none that ever repeated them or that commonly did it or that ever took them in the sense he himself puts upon them We only took notice of them as a zealous expression of his hearty forwardness for peace which it seems we wronged him in and we must desire him to forgive us this wrong and not as in any distrust on their part of their Papers for they never wanted confidence and a conceit to the utmost of the validity of all they did and do not yet so that we could never knowing their whole carriage in the business mistake their words so far to favour of any retraction on their part of any thing they had written But for this to be the occasion of their Printing we account it a poor shift to alledge it they might sure have enquired of us when upon tearmes of Peace especially whether any of us would have owned any such words in such a sense before they had Printed the Papers upon them and what was the occasion before these words were spoken that many of their Party did so frequently talke of Printing the Papers if they had not been Printed but for them But the truth is these men the only men acquainted with Religion Learning and Antiquity conceit some great advantage they have gotten by their Papers against the Government and nothing shall perswade them to keep that under though they accommodate never so with the Congregations where it is practised or rather that it was a meere pretence in them to an accommodation when they deal thus underhand in open hostility is but too manifest But Mr Heyricke moved that he might have their Answer in writing that he might return it to the Class as appointed by them to receive it They promised they would within a fortnight Within that time Mr Allen came and denied to return any Answer in writing though he had promised it and though he did not know of the Printing of the Papers as he saies with the Preface yet now it is done they must own it to prevent a breach amongst themselves resolved they are to keep Peace amongst themselves though with us they deal according to the Tenent of keeping no faith with Hereticks whilst they cry up themselves as the only Patrons of the Protestant Cause and all others but as Punies to them What iniquity humane infirmity set aside can any find in this or in our actings If in any thing we have transgressed it is that our actings did not succeed our purposes forgive us this wrong and for the future we engage our selves all Bug-beares set aside to act according to our representation not spending more time in perswading them that will not be perswaded Having thus given a faithfull account of the rise and manner of these proceedings which is all we shall say by way of Preface on our part we shall take leave after a word upon the Title under which they have Printed the Papers to make some brief Animadversions upon some passages in the Preface which they have prefixed For the Title they give to the Papers as Printed by them and what they further say in their Title Page 1. First they call it Excommunicatio excommunieata Here is flat Erastianisme in the Front though it is but a Maske to to cover Prelacy under For though they seem to be against all excommunication unless it be the totall excommunication of that Ordinance out of the Church yet after we finde them willing that the Diocesan Bishops should excommunicate Besides this contradiction it is wonder how this comes to be the Title of the Book for unless they had done more in their Papers which might appear to be of unquestionable strength and directly against that Ordinance though as Administred according to the Presbyterian Government they do seem to set up the Gates of Mindas in this great Title 2. They say Wherein is modestly examined Let the Reader judg whether what they offer be worthy to be called an examination of what we have at first published or since Answered to theirs or to the matter in the whole For their modesty sure they either have another notion of modesty then is ordinary or else they soon forget what they here assert if untruths reproaches revilings c. savour of modesty let the Reader judg to call our's an usurped power and to determine so peremptorily upon the matter of the whole Controversie savours not of over much modesty in the very next Lines and if they have carried the matter like dissenting Christians we desire the Reader to believe as he finds reason to judge upon the

waies and hedges to fetch in his guests we will not refuse the service nor be ashamed to beare the reproach of more then that phrase signifies for his sake 4. And what though we were to exhort persons to apply themselves to the Eldership for their coming to the Sacrament doth this follow that all that can not submit to Elders shall be subject to excommunication whether scandalous or no c. We presume if they had their Government on foot whatsoever they would allow to dissenting Brethren which when time was was little enough as some of us well remember yet they would not betray their Discipline to contempt by making it indifferent whether the people render any submission to it or no. If men have no scruples against the Government practised who is so little a friend to peace or satisfied in the grounds of his own actings as to cast needless scruples before them It was time enough for us to manifest what we could condescend to in respect of the manner of admission when there was occasion offered for any such need which we have not ordinarily met with in those that have since tendred themselves to the Ordinance There was enough declared at the Publication of the Paper to have prevented any such construction as they made of it in this thing and therefore we cannot but admire at what we finde next that our aime should be to bring all sorts to subject themselves to Ministers and Elders for examination and that all persons must come under the inquisition not so much to fit them for the Sacrament as to teach them Obedience that they might know themselves to be homines ad servitutem nati c. whenas the chief Acter in the Printing of these Papers could not but heare a solemne profession to the contrary at our publishing of our Paper as aforesaid which he cannot shew to be contradicted by any after practice as also when by experience there are severall Communicants in our Congregations that have scrupled being examined before the Elders whom yet we have not refused but have found out expedients for their admission without any further trouble to them in the thing they have scrupled the Eldership consenting that two Ministers might take an account of their knowledg and they after be admitted by the Eldership and of this practice of ours both before and since upon occasion there are severall in our Congregations able and we believe ready to testifie 5. Whether our Paper published for the scope or matter deserve to be called brutum fulmen or whether their Answer savoured of all or any meeknesse and humility we shall not here speake further of they best know with what frame of spirit they tendred it though we could discerne but little of such a temper in it For the grounds of their dissatisfaction but in one sheet and that we put our selves to the trouble of seaven to returne them an Answer in and whether it be longer then sound we leave the Papers themselves to manifest of which being published by them the Reader may supply himself with an account and freely making his own judgment 6. For what Ecclesiasticall or Civill Sanction we have for our Government we leave that to be judged by those that shall peruse our following Papers And that they wonder that men pretending to Religion and Learning c. So we wonder at them how they dare pretend to Religion or Learning and call them mens own Lawes the Placita of our own wills fancies of men nay praevarications before they had better made it to appear that they were such That matter is foule indeed and inconsistent with Religion and Learning to call in the God of truth to abett our own fancies and to pretend to civill authority to second our own prevarications But we might return to the Laconicke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If to this If it be so but that 's the great Question But the Prefator here can dispute and moderate too and very ingenuously determine on his own side without any respect at all to our Arguments for the contrary eg regiae scilieet artis est ridere quod non potest solvere 7. What unguided zeale or interest it is that should precipitate us we no more are carefull to clear our selves from then to retort the like upon them in their opposition of us which we might as well do But about this danger of a Premunire we cannot thinke them cordiall in their advice and caution to us because they would perswade us to return to Canonicall obedience and Episcopacy c. which we know is expresly excepted against in the late Laws of the Land and we foresee it to be a Praemunire to meddle with them and therefore we have cause to judg that they would fancy us in a Premunire in the way against them not careing to draw us into a reall Praemunire in a way with them 8. That what we published is any thing against the Laws it will speake for it self they have published it to the view of the world and if without their Comment any thing be justly culpable by the Law we are not now likely to be concealed 9. But that what we published should be stiled Laws and Canons and that for all men to obey upon paine of excommunication we see no reason for any such construction of our action We presume our conclusions should not have been stiled Canons by them unless thereby they intended to put some odium upon them And they know whose practice in Government made that word less pleasing amongst us which was well received and reverenced in the ancient Church to set forth the conclusions of Councils and Synods by 10. They now to the end of their Preface express their trouble at our self-contradiction in severall things as first that we should cry out against the Prelates for Lordliness over Gods inheritance and we our selves aspire at the same and much more If they find not our way more sociall we are sure they have felt as little of the burthen of our fingers If the Prelates had bent their endeavours and authority to informe the grosly ignorant and to reforme the openly scandalous it had never by us been cryed out against for Lordly Tyranny And when we have principally in this cause so bent our selves we wonder with what face they can fancy us Prelaticall we should never have complained of the weight of their loynes if it had been only in these cases and if in these manifest entrustments of Christs Government viz. For the information of the ignorant and reformation of the scandalous our fingers are heavier then their loines they say more to ours and less to the Prelates honour The Prelates Lording it over the Lords heritage we frequently declare wherein it was when we speake of it and not as they charge us with the same and tell us not for what When we enjoyne Ceremonies bowing at the Name of Jesus Crosse in Baptisme wearing the

submission to Synods and Councils is any sounder then as we understood you to have meant those words and which we doubt not but he will discern from what hath been said concerning it in the Animadversion going before 5. But by this explication of your selves you have created to us a further scruple for it a●peats to us from thence seeing you joyn the word of God and constant practice of the Catholique Church together as that which must make those matters of faith and articles of Religion so plain to you that you thereupon will refuse to submit such matters so made plain and your apprehensions concerning them to a generall Council that except the plainest matters of faith and articles of Religion from Gods word be also made plain to have been the constant practice rather judgment as we think you should have expressed it of the Catholique Church they are not so plain to you as not to submit your apprehensions concerning them to a generall Council and so the word of God alone even in the matters of faith and articles of Religion that are therein most plainly contained shall not be a sufficient foundation to bottom your faith upon except it be also evident what was the constant and universall practice rather judgment of the Church in those points and so your faith even in the plainest articles of Religion must be resolved into the constant practice or rather declared judgment of the universal Church and which makes it a meer humane not a divine faith But touching this as the rule in any cases of matters of Religion we shall have further occasion to speak in our animadversions on the sixth Section of this paper 6. As touching our selves we have declared that we did not submit to Synods and Councils so as to build our faith on their dictates or resolve it into their determinations and in this we would be understood touching all matters of faith whatsoever not only those that are most plainly contained in Gods word but also such as about which there may be some doubt and difficulty although we reverence Synods as an Ordinance of God and in way of means judg it more likely in doubtfull cases that what is Gods mind should be boulted forth to our satisfaction by the learned debates of learned judicious and godly Divines in such Assemblies then by the discussion of one Bishop or some few Ministers But as touching the juridicall power of Synods we profess our selves to be ready to submit to their judgment and did so submit our Paper wholly to the judgment of our Provinciall which was a Synod actually in being and to whom we knowing our selves to be accountable and judging we ought so to be thought it not meet to publish the Paper that was read in our severall Congregations except it had first been approved of by them Now how farre we do in this declaration of our judgements touching our submission to Synods and Councils concur with what here you declare to be yours we leave it to your selves and the Reader to judg of but we are sure there is herein a great distance betwixt your declared judgment and ours though you shall not finde afterwards that we do hardly grant that to a generall Council rightly constituted and regularly called which we either in truth or any shew do grant to our Provinciall The Gentlemens Paper Sect. III. Having done with our Preface you come to the matter and as we said so we finde we much dissent not onely in the third and last concerning the Heresie and Schism of those who Erre so grossely whether in Doctrinals or points of discipline You give us the reason wherefore you did not so expresly mention them their sin and punishment as the grossely ignorant and scandalous Which is because they are very inconsiderable in comparison of the other and in sundry of your Congregations if not in most not any at all that you know of But if you will seriously consider the number of those that have rent themselves from a true constituted Church and of those who have severed themselves from those Bishops unto whom they had sworn Canonical obedience and therefore in the Judgement of that Learned and Rever end Bishop Vsher and others cannot possibly be excused from being Schismaticall we say if you consider this you will finde a considerable number even within the verge of your own Association What we said touching the way of Catechising for Information of the ignorant we are glad to hear you so heartily wish for a more generall practise thereof in your Churches at home at you say it is practised abroad It was enjoyned and practised in the Church of England before your separation And if you by your pretended Reformation have destroyed that practise the fault lies at your own doors You understand us aright in this That we hold it not fitting that Persons grossely ignotant should be admitted so the Sacrament of the Lords Supper But your conclusion thence is not good viz. That we cannot therefore in reason deny that there ought to be an Examination and tryall of all Persons de novo before they be admitted c Especially by your Eldership To whom you say the power of judgement and examination is committed and not to any one Minister before whom all must come for re-examination whatsoever their tryall and examination heretofore hath been Those Persons who have anciently been Catechized and have been a long time Commoners at the Lords Table and witnessed a good confession for parts and piety must these again yeild themselves to the examination of an Eldership before they can be admitted Pardon us if herein we pronounce a dissent from you Concerning the scandalous and wicked in their lives you say we fully come up to you and are glad there is an agreement in judgement betwixt us thus farre viz. That the Churches lawfull Pastors have power to Excommunicate such upon which you say you cannot see how we in reason can finde fault with your proceedings in such a way against such Persons though your ruling Elders which in our judgement a●e but meer lay-men do joyn in the Government with you Ther 's another non sequitur a conclusion as bad as the former and the reason of that conclusion as weak as the rest Because High-Commissioners Chancellors and Commissaries in the time of Episcopacy to which Government we submitted that were as much Lay-men as your ruling Elders had so great a share as to suspend Ministers c. and so farre as to decree the sentence of Excommunication against them and others as there was occasion for it For when you can prove that these Chancellors Commissaries c. did not officiate by deputation from and under a lawfull Pastor but in equall right with him and jure divino as your ruling Elders do Then your Comparison of them and your ruling Elders may hold good till then it is weak and frivolous Now whereas you desire to

know whom we mean by lawfull Pastors our Answer is we mean such Persons as have received their Ordination from men lawfully and truely qualified with a just power of conferring Orders which you and we believe 't is none but you presume one Presbyter may give another Whereupon you instance the opinion of Dr Vsher in a late Letter of his set forth by Dr Bernard and refer us to Dr Bernards animadversions upon it We have perused the Papers to which you refer us and finde that Dr Vsher doth not invalidate the Ordination by Presbyters but with a speciall restriction to such places where Bishops cannot be had But this we must desire you to consider is ex necessitate non ex perjurio pertinaciâ which he in the next page clearely dilucidates his words are these You may easily judge that the Ordination made by such Presbyters as have severed themselves from those Bishops unto whom they had sworne Cannnical obedience cannot possibly by me be excused from being schismaticall Examine your selves in this particular we shall not judge any man For this Purity amongst Church Officers an Errour first broacht by Ae rius and for which amongst other things he was most justly condemned of Heresie and Ordination by Presbyters otherwise then before expressed cannot possibly be made out by any instance out of Dr Vshers Letter or Dr Bernards animadversions upon it since he is clearly against it and so that Catalogue of Divines Schoolmen and Fathers by you out of him collected is frustraneously cited Concerning submission to the judgement of Councils rightly called and constituted we have said enough before In which point if you will hold to what you profess you shall not have us dissenting from you But we shall finde you of another minde before you come to a conclusion As for your Provinciall Assembly at Preston or any other elsewhere of that nature we say it is a new Termed Assembly Not for the words sake Assembly but new both in respect of the word Provinciall and place at Preston That this County of Lancaster should be termed the Province of Lancaster and the Synods and Assemblies therein convened at Preston or elsewhere should be termed Provinciall all new New also in respect of the Persons constituting this Assembly Lay-men to preside to rule and to have decisive voices in as ample manner as the highest and chiefest in holy Orders is a novelty no Antiquity can plead for it Nor doth Dr Bernard or Bishop Vsher that Learned and reverend Antiquary or the Fathers and Councils there alleadged and by you out of him so confidently cited any way make for such an Assembly And so your Provinciall Assembly at Preston may in the Judgement of Bishop Vshor be accounted a new termed Provinciall Assembly and remains as yet uncleared from all suspition of novelty The Animadversions of the Classe upon it FIrst We must desire the Reader to take the pains to peruse the third Section of our Answer to which you do here reply You do in the next Section tell us that the most considerable part of our Answer as to the bulke doth insist on the proof of the establishment of our Government by Authority this you also said in the close of your second Paper But if the Reader but compare what is contained in this Section with what is in the next where we prove this establishment of our Government by authority he will finde our answer here in this one Section is considerably larger then all that great bulk you complain of in the next and it will be found to be as much as all that we have touching this matter throughout our whole answer And therefore we cannot but wonder that you should so much forget your selves and so little consider what you say as again and again to assert with no small confidence what is so farre from truth But in this Section the Reader may further descern that you pass over some things in silence to which you should at the least have made some reply testifying either your assent to them and so your receiving satisfaction or have given us the grounds of your dissent but we shall desire that what was answered by us and is by you replyed unto might be compared together by the candid Reader that he may see with his own eyes wherein you fall short Secondly You profess that in some things you finde we much dissent not only in the third and last concerning the heresie and schisme of those who erre so grosly in Doctrinals or points of Discipline you mention the reason we gave you why we did not so expresly mention them their sin and punishment as the grosly ignorant and scandalous scil the inconsider ableness of the number of the former to the number of these But First This was not the only reason we gave but there was also another mentioned scil because we were to give in to the Provincial Assembly what our apprehensions were touching the case propounded to us by them touching some further meanes to be used for the information of the ignorant and reformation of the scandalous Secondly But yet this you pitch upon because you had a mind to charge us and all others that have in our Congregations severed themselves from the Bishops with schisme that so you might hereby also invalidate that reason rendered of our not mentioning expresly the heretical and schismatical But we hope we have in our answer to your second Paper said that which will be sufficient to wipe off that aspersion and you must pardon us if wherein Dr. Usher in this point differing from us in judgment expressed himself too farre we therein though we otherwise reverence him both for his piety and learning look upon him as a man We cannot as yet be perswaded that the Bishops were the only true constituted Church of England from whom because we have severed our selves you do here though without any reason charge us to be schismatical and to have rent our selves from a true constituted Church Thirdly But seeing in this third and last touching those that are chargeable with heresie and schisme you profess to diffent from us you might have testified either your assent to or dissent from that previous course that in our answer we mentioned was to be taken with these before they were to be excommunicated especially considering we had told you that though you allowed of admonition of the scandalous before there was process to the censure of them yet you said nothing of this course to be taken with the other and wherein therefore we purposely declared our selves that if you judged the previous course of admonition necessary to be held with the scandalous you might not censure us as indulgent toward any of the other that might be in any of our Congregations though we said the number of them was not considerable to the number of the scandalous because we took it to be our duty according to the practice of the

an express Repeal of it there also in these words All Laws Statutes Ordinances and Clauses in any Law Statute and Ordinance so far as they are contrary to the aforesaid Liberty be repealed Doth not this take from you what you may conceive was granted by former Ordinances Doth your Presbyterian Government for all your Glosses upon it receive strength from hence Doth the Ordinance of the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament for setling Presbyterian Government throughout the Land remain yet unrepealed for any thing you have seen or heard to the contrary Yea so you affirm and would have us credit you The Animadversions of the Class upon it 1 IN the first place you charge us that our professions and expressions for peace and unity were not as cordial and real as yours but how is this proved scil because in that answer we gave to your second Paper we put you upon the invalidateing the civil sanction for our Government being before warned by you of not running our selves into a praemunire But let the Reader judge what incivility or unsatisfactoriness there was in this answer or whether there was any thing that did not become cordial wishers of peace and unity godly sober and moderate spirited men as we do not only pretend but hope to approve our selves to be both to God and men If it be indeed inconsistent with either an hearty desire of unity and peace or with godliness and sobriety to insist upon the authority of that Parliament that was instrumental for our freedome from Prelatical bondage and that setled the Government wherein we have acted and that doth fully awarrant us for whatever we have acted therein and to insist upon this authority when we were challenged as transgressors in making Laws and Edicts contrary to the Laws in force then we must confess we pretended only to be for peace and unity when in our hearts we were not real for it But as our own consciences accuse us not of dissembling professing that which we never intended so we believe whatever your censures of us be others will be more equal judges then to say the answer we gave to your first Paper was any evidence thereof and such as know what some of you were in time past will rather conclude that the urging the authority of Parliament for the setling of our Government and the awarranting of our actings was that indeed which you could not brook Secondly But as you judge our answer to your second Paper was uncivill and not suitable to that moderation we made profession of so still you will have the answer we gave unto your first to be full of darkness although even as you here represent it it is very plain to any ordinary understanding to hold forth thus much that because the mistakes we saw you had run into might perhaps some of them arise from your unacquaintedness with the rule we walk by although we said we were not to be blamed for any mistake that might arise ab ignorantiâ juris i. e. in you as the whole tenour of the discourse shewes and therefore we added whether simple or affected that we determined not but left it to you to judge of who were most fit to be judges in a matter of that nature you therein knowing your own hearts best we were willing to be at some pains to acquaint you with it This we desire might be taken notice of because what is here manifestly our meaning even from your own representation is afterwards most grosly perverted by you for you would make the world to believe that we assert such an absurd position as this that we were not to be blamed for our ignorance of the Law and then cry out of it as a strange saying But you did warily forbear the imputing any such thing to us here where our words are too plain to be so wrested and reserve this for another place hoping the Reader would by that time he came thither have forgotten what you had here represented us to have said and there take the matter wholly upon trust from you believing us to be so farre devoid of reason as you would there make us to be But this is but a small part in comparison of the injury you do us yet we desire you might see it that you might not hereafter be charged with it by him that is to be the supream Judge betwixt you and us at the great day Thirdly As touching the pains that we have taken and of which you do here again complain as having swelled our answer to so great a bulk yea so as that the most considerable part thereof as to the bulk insists thereon as you say scil to prove our Presbyterian Government to be warranted by the civil anthority and which you say was not by you oppugned nor so much as questioned by you as also touching your judging this discourse to be impertinent we referre the Reader unto what we have already said in the sixth seventh eighth and ninth Animadversions on the first Section of this Paper as also to what we mind him of in the first Animadversion on the third Section thereof by perusal of all which he will find how much you forgot your selves when you come over and over again with such assertions they having in them no more shew of truth then only to evidence that it is wearisome to you to hear of Ordinances of Parliament especially such as are for the setling of the Presbyterian Government or what makes for our own necessary vindication and to manifest that our actings in the management of that Government have been regular and orderly according to the forme of Church-Government appointed by authority and to see that we took off that Objection that is commonly made against the Presbyterian Government as being established by the Parliament but for three yeares only and unto which purposes all the Orders or Ordinances of Parliament or Rules by them given and by us recited tended and all which in the fourth Section of it to which the complaint here refers takes not up above four leafes of our answer which yet in your Preface your selves say is seven sheets Fourthly But what you cannot make out with any colour of truth you hope to do by scoffs and jeers and therefore you say we wheel about and are come to the pole we first started at like an horse in a mill that travels all day and is no further at night then he was in the morning in which also there is as little truth as in your other assertions we having already shewed that our first essay was to give you some account how the termes when we called this the first Class within the Province of Lancaster which you had called ours were no other then the Parliament had given us by their Order That which we attempted in the fourth Section of our answer to which you here reply was to shew that the Ordinances of Parliament for the