sacrifice spoken of in Malachie is one and therefore betokeneth not spirituall sacrifices the which are as many as there are Christian good workes Hart. Why Because the text of the Prophet Malachie saith that there is offered a cleane oblation or offering as you call it And offering is spoken of one not of many For els he should haue saide offerings not offering Rainoldes So. And doo you thinke that he who said to God sacrifice offering thou art not delited with or as you translate it host and oblation thou wouldest not did meane the Masse by that host Hart. The Masse No. He meant the hostes and oblations of the old law For they are the wordes of the Prophet Dauid spoken of the legall and carnall sacrifices of the Iewes Rainoldes The Iewes Nay the text of the Prophet Dauid saith that God mislyked host and oblation it saith not hostes and oblations Wherefore sith he speaketh of one not of many and the carnall sacrifices of the Iewes were many but the sacrifice of the Masse is one as you say it séemeth he should meane that A point some what dangerous for the host which your Priests lift vp to be adored More dangerous for them who liue by lifting it vp Hart. Our adoration of the host is good in spite of all heretikes and not reproued by the Prophet For although he saith host and oblation thou wouldest not yet is it plaine he meaneth the sacrifices of the Iewes by a figure of spéech in which a part is vsed for the whole and one for many as host and oblation for hostes and oblations Rainoldes Then Allens second reason is not worth a shoobuckle to proue that the sacrifice of the Masse is meant by the oblation in Malachie For the word oblation or offering which he vseth in his owne language is vsed likewise still as of one not as of many through all the olde testament Wherefore if the sacrifices of the Iewes were many which neuerthelesse are called not offerings but offering the same worde applyed to the sacrifices of Christians can not inforce them to be one Howbeit were they one to graunt you that by a supposall yet might that one sacrifice be a spirituall sacrifice and so your Masse no whit the neerer For as the Prophet Esay saith that the Gentiles shal be an offering to the Lord vsing the same worde that the Prophet Malachie so the Apostle Paul exhorteth them with Esay to present their bodies a liuing sacrifice holy acceptable vnto God speaking of their sundry sacrifices as one as also in a mysterie we that are many are one body But without supposall the course of the text doth import rather that the Prophet saying there is offered an offering doth meane not one but many by that figure which you touched as by an other figure he saith it is offered meaning it shall be offered For the Lord declaring his detestation of the sacrifices of the Iewish Priests saith that he will not accept an offering at their hand but the Gentiles shall offer to him a cleane offering which he meaneth of the contrarie that he will accept And this he sheweth farther where touching it againe he saith it shall be offered vnto him in righteousnesse and shal be acceptable to him Now the offering that is acceptable to God from the Gentiles in the new testament is all sortes of spirituall sacrifices and good workes By the offering therefore mentioned in Malachie there are many sacrifices meant not one onely Which yet your olde translation maketh more euident opening the meaning of the Hebrew word by terming it sacrifices They shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in righteousenesse Wherefore sith our offering that should please God in the time of the gospell is sacrifices by the iudgement of your old translation which you in no case may refuse and sacrifices can not be meant of the Masse for that is one sacrifice but of spirituall sacrifices it may for they are many as Allens second reason saith you see we must conclude on his owne principles that the cleane offering which Malachie writeth of doth signifie the spirituall sacrifices of Christians and not the sacrifice of the Masse The third and fourth reasons haue greater shew but lesser weight For though it be true that spirituall sacrifices of praying to God and doing good to men are common to the Iewes with vs and therefore may seeme not to be the offering spoken of in Malachie which beside that it is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles it should succeed also the sacrifices of the Iewes and be offered in their steede yet if we marke the difference that the scriptures put betweene the Iewish worship of God in the law and the Christian in the gospel that séeming wil melt as snow before the sunne For in the law of Moses the Iewes to the intent that both their redemption by the death of Christ dutie of thankfulnesse which they did owe to God for it might stil be set before them as in a figure shadow were willed to offer beastes without spot blemish in sacrifice with ceremonies thereto annexed and to offer them in the place that God should choose which was the citie of Ierusalem and the sanctuarie that is to say the temple built therein Now Christ in the gospell when that was fulfilled which the temple of Ierusalem and sacrifices did represent shewed that the time of reformation was come and remoued that worship both in respect of the place and of the maner of it For as it was prophecied that he should destroy the citie and the sanctuary and cause the sacrifice and offering to cease so him selfe taught that now the Father would not be worshipped in Ierusalem nor as the Iewes did worship him but he would be worshipped in spirit and truth The Christian worship therefore that did succéede the Iewish doth differ from it in two pointes one that it worshippeth God not in Ierusalem but in all places an other that it worshippeth him in spirit and truth in spirit without the carnall ceremonies rites in truth without the shadowes of the law of Moses The which sort of worship séeing hee requireth of the true worshippers that is of all the Saintes his seruants and in the new testament the Gentiles by the Gospell are called to be Saintes the worship that is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles is the true spirituall worship of God the reasonable seruing of him by godlines and good workes in righteousnes and true holines euen the offering vp of spirituall sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. And thus you may sée the weakenes of those cauils which are brought to proue that our spirituall sacrifices cannot be the offering whereof God in Malachie saith it shall be offered
with the Priestly garment of the holy Ghost Wherein as the garment and vnction and crowne do signifie spirituall giftes not thinges corporall so the holy robe that reached downe to the feete betokeneth that function which that robe in Aaron did represent and shadow Hart. You perswade not me that he alluded so to the robe of Aaron but that hee meant in déede a robe which Christian Bishops wore Rainoldes And what gaine you by it if so much were granted For you cannot proue by any circumstance of the place that it must be a Massing-robe The onely shew of any such is in your last proofe out of the Gréeke Fathers Chrysostome and Basil or rather out of the Liturgies which falsely beare their names or rather out of some copies ofthose Liturgies wherin are mentioned the amice the girdle the chisible and the fanel Howbeit if a man should sift the Gréeke words out of the which you picke these and conferre your amice with their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your biggin of the head with their shoulder garment your one coard or fanel with their mo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your chisible with their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 perhaps he should leaue the girdle post alone to binde your proofe with And doutlesse in that which is most maske-like and least beséemeth Christian Pastours at publike seruice I meane that which the Priest at Masse weareth vppermost the chisible you call it I trow or vpper vestiment the Gréeke word declareth that you doo wrong to the Grecians in matching that of theirs with yours For the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the which their vpper vestiment is noted doth signifie a cloake a garment worne much as single and readie by Christians in olde time chiefly by the Grecians whose Bishops kept it thence belike in solemnities when other wise they left it off But your vpper vestiment is farre from that singlenes nor is it like to that common garment but to a little cottage whence it is named casula closing the Priest round as it were with walles and hauing a hole for him to put out his head at as it were a loouer-hole to let out the smoke at Hart. The high Priest of the Iewes had the like robe Rainoldes Like your cottage-vestiment Which robe was that Hart. If not like our vpper vestiment altogither yet like in that respect that it was close about with a hole for his head in the â—â—ddes of it And therefore you néede not to scoffe in such sort at that kinde of vestiment Rainoldes If you take the little cottage to be a scoffe it is not my scoffe but your owne Doctours whose wordes I doo but open Your selfe are rather faultie who compare your cottage-ragge patched by mans braine with a Priestly robe made by Gods commandement And yet in that you match your vestiment with the Iewish for the forme of it I reproue you not For though there be difference betwéene theirs and yours in sundrie respectes yet yours were taken vp after the example and made in likenes of theirs Which is plainely shewed by those ancient autours whom I named before Alcuinus Amalarius and Walafridus Strabo Of whom the first treating of Massing-vestiments saith that the Church receiued them after the facion of the Priests of Moses law The next that our hye Priest he meaneth euery Bishop hath them after the rule of AaroÌ„ The last that they came in by little little for at the first saith he men celebrated Masses in common apparel as certaine of the east Church are said to doo till this day And so hee goeth forward shewing in particular how Stephen and Siluester and other Popes and Prelats did softly bring them in and some deuised this some that either to resemble the roabes of the Iewish Priests or to note a mysterie To be short it is shewed plainely by them all that the Massing-vestiments of Bishops at that time which was eight hundred yeares after Christ were but eight in number iust as many as Aarons Whereof the former seuen for the eighth was proper to Archbishops onely are growen now to be fiftéene more then twise as many And doo you not perceiue hereby M. Hart how lewdly D. Stapleton alleageth the Fathers to proue your Massing-vestimentes all to haue bene vsed by the primitiue Church How falsely the Councell of Trent doth father them nor onely them but also lightes incense crossinges and other ceremonies of the Masse on the tradition of the Apostles And sawe I not truely that if you see not how the Christian worship of God in spirit and truth doth differ from the Iewish and so might succeed it the cause thereof by likelihood is the vaile of Popery which hauing brought in a Iewish kinde of worship doth hide it from your eyes For is it not euident that the Iewish shadowes that is the darke lineaments of Christ as of a picture which he abolished by his coming as being the image it selfe and body of them are drawne out againe by the painters of your religion Or may not he that hath but halfe an eye sée that you surpasse the Iewes in sundrie shewes of outwarde seruice and go beyond the priesthood of Aaron in carnall rites For the most whereof though you haue meanings mysticall or spiritual matters which they are saide to figure in other significations then the Iewish did yet they set the Church to schoole with new rudiments after a Iewish maner and presse it with that bondage from which the Lord hath made it frée Wherefore were they taken from the Iewes or not yet in respect of vs on whom God hath not laide them they are of the commandements doctrines of men And we may iustly say of them now being bredde the same that S· Austin saide when they were bréeding Although it can not be found in what sense they are against the faith yet religion it selfe which God of his mercy would haue to bee free vnder very few and most manifest ceremonies of diuine seruice is by them oâ—pressed so with seruile burdens that the case and state of the Iewes is more tolerable who although they haue not acknowledged the time of libertie yet are they 〈◊〉 with the packes of Gods law not with the deuises and presumptions of men Hart. It is a calumnious spéech that our ceremonies are shadowes or rudiments or kéepe the Church in bondage as the Iewish did For theirs were very many combersome darke ours are vâ—ry few easie and significant As S. Austin saith that since that our libertie hath shined most brightly by Christs resurrection we are not laden with a heauie charge of signes as were the Iewes but our Lord himselfe and the Apostolike discipline hath deliuered to vs some few in steed of many and them most easie to be doon most honorable for signification most cleane and pure to be obserued But you
Louan to himselfe and to raze out his notes of theÌ„ all sauing of Abdias a forgerie coÌ„demned by the Pope Papists the Roman Inquisitors many yeares ago with D. Hessels Censure wholly Sigonius in his storie of the Weststerne Empire hath written so of Constantine that he hath not onely not proued the charter of Constantines donation a fable that hee gaue the Western Empire to the Pope but hath disproued it Cardinall Sirletus sent him worde from Rome that Balsamon Caleca Gennadius hungrie Greekes haue mentioned that charter A miserable euidence against all ancient writers But such as it was Sigonius must enroll it and vse it gently as he doth Though ouerthrowing afterward the foundation of it yet fearfully poore man and making his excuse that he thought it his dutie to shew what Eusebius and many more had writen albeit not agreeably to the Church of Rome So the dealing of Cardinall Sirletus with Sigonius of many with Molanus of the Diuines of Louan with Ludouicus Viues may teach you my brethren to what sort of seruice or seruitude rather you are trained vp by the Popes officers who if you vtter a worde beside the artes and toung of the Romans will gag you by and by and cut your toungs if they be long Yet this is a freedome in respect of that slauerie which your Masters fat you too Alas yee knowe not seely soules nor yet doo vnderstand The thraldome of the Romish crew yoke of Popish band For it is a small thing that they should restraine you from reprouing falsehood or force you to furder it in points of lesser waight a hard thing for ingenuous mindes but small for them vnlesse they leade you also with heresie and treason to band your selues against the Lord and his anointed in the Popes quarrell that he may bee exalted as God of Gods vpon the earth The anointed of the Lord are the higher powers ordained to execute iustice and iudgement ouer the good and euill The Lord hath giuen charge of these his anointed that all eueÌ„ euery soule should be subiect to them yea though they be infidels as they were when this charge was giuen Your Masters doo teach you that if they indeuor to withdraw their subiects to infidelitie or heresie then ought they not to raigne and the Pope as iudge thereof must depose them It were a point of scandalous doctrine and erroneous to say that the persons ouer whom the power of the sword is giuen them are lay men onely not the clergie Much more to adde thereto that the things and matters wherein they haue to gouerne are onely temporall not spirituall Buâ—â—o say that the Pope may depriue them of their kingdomes nor onely take from them some of their subiects in all causes all their subiects in some causes but all their subiects and causes both it is so vngodly that Sigebert a moonke who liued fiue hundred yeares since when Hildebrand the Pope did first vsurpe that power against the Emperour Henry Sigebert an historian alleaged by your champions for a speciall witnesse that the Church of Rome had neuer any heresie nor changed ought in faith Sigebert condemneth it in the Pope as noueltie and though halfe afraid to cal it so heresie This is the golden image which your Nabuchodonosor hath raised vp to bee worshipped Beware of him my brethren who hath raised it vp and commaundeth you to fall downe before it Though he haue ensnared you with his meate and drinke yet learne of your felow and friend M. Hart to disobey him in this point If you haue not the courage to doo it where you are as Ananias Misael Azarias did returne out of Babylon into your natiue country serue the Lord with feare not in the hye places but in his holy temple But if you will neither returne vnto vs will persist there to be the Popes slaues heretikes traitors I call heauen and earth to witnesse this day that I haue warned you to turneÌ„ from your wickednes I haue discharged my dutie your bloud vpon your owne heads LVK. 23.34 Father forgiue them for they know not what they doo ¶ THE CONTENTS OF THE Chapters diuided by numbers into sundrie partes for the sundrie pointes entreated of therein The first Chapter THe occasion of the conference the circumstances and pointes to be debated on 2 The ground of the first point touching the head of the Church Wherein how that title belongeth to Christ how it is giuen to the Pope and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie Pag. 33. The second Chapter The promise of the supremacy pretended to bee made by Christ vnto Peter 1 in the wordes Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke will I build my Church 2 and To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen Of expounding the scriptures how the right sense of them may be knowne and who shall iudge thereof 3 What is meant by the keyes the power of binding and loosing promised by Christ to Peter and in Peter to all the Apostles Pag. 55. The third Chapter The performance which Christ is supposed to haue made of the supremacie promised 1 in saying to Peter Feede my lambes feede my sheepe 2 and Strengthen thy brethren With the circumstances of the pointes thereof Doest thou loue me and I haue prayed for thee Peter What and how they make for Peter how for all Pag. 121. The fourth Chapter The practise of the supremacie which Peter is entitled to imagined to be proued 1 by the election of Matthias to the Apostleship 2 by the Presidentship of the Councell held at Ierusalem 3 and by Paules iourney taken to see Peter and his abode with him Wherein as in other of the actes of the Apostles the equalitie of them all not the supremacie of one is shewed Pag. 151. The fifth Chapter The Fathers 1 are no touch-stone for triall of the truth in controuersies ofreligion but the scripture onely 2 Their writings are corrupted and counterfeits do beare their names 3 The sayinges alleaged out of their right writings proue not the pretended supremacie of Peter Pag. 184. The sixth Chapter The two maine groundes on which the supremacie vsurped by the Pope doth lye The former that there should bee one Bishop ouer all in earth 1 because Christ sayd There shall be one flock and one Pastour 2 And among the Iewes there was one iudge and hie Priest The later that the Pope is that one Bishop 3 because Peter was Bishop of Rome as some say 4 and the Pope succeedeth Peter Both examined and shewed to faile in the proofe of the Popes supremacie Pag. 230. The seuenth Chapter The scriptures falsly sayd to bee alleaged by the Fathers for the supremacie of the Pope as successour to Peter 1 Feede my sheepe strengthen thy brethren and that thy faith faile not belong
no more to Popes then to other Bishops 2 The Pope may erre in doctrine 3 not only as a priuate man but as Pope 4 yea preach false doctrine also For 5 â—he may be a theefe a robber a woolfe 6 and erre not in person only but in office too as it is proued in euery part of his office 7 with aunswere to the replie made against the proofes for the defense of him therein 8 The succession of Popes hath bene preuailed against by the gates of hell 9 and when the gates of hell preuailed not against them their rocke did argue foundnesse of faith not the supremacie Pag. 277. The eighth Chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may bee iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selues 6 nor any other Fathers doo proue the Popes supremacy Pag. 452. The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller and ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 ofEphesus of Chalcedon ofConstantinople eftsoones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie Pag. 652. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it Pag. 669. The first Chapter 1 The occasion of the conference the circumstances and poyntes to be debated on 2 The ground of the first poynt touching the head of the Church Wherein how that title belongeth vnto Christ how it is giuen to the Pope and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES You haue heard maister Hart from the Right honorable M. Secretarie Walsyngham the cause why he hath sent for me to come vnto you to conferre with you concerning matters of religion for the better informing of your conscience and iudgement In the which respect you signified vnto him your selfe to bee willing to conferre with any man so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withall Hart. In deede I did signifie so much to M. Secretarie neither am I vnwilling to do that I haue promised Howbeit I wish rather that if a conference be purposed the learned men of our side whome we haue many beyond sea might be sent for hether of riper yeares and sounder iudgement As for mée the condition of conference with you is somewhat vn-euen For I lie in prison and am adiudged to dye the closenesse of the one terror of the other doth dull a mans spirits and make him very vnfitte for study I neither am of great yeares nor euer was of great reading and yet of that which I haue read I haue forgotten much by reason of my long restraint I am destitute of bookes we are not permitted to haue any at all sauing the Bible onely You of the other side may haue bookes at will and you come fresh from the vniuersitie whereby you are the readier to vse them and alleage them These are great disaduantages for me to enter into conference with you Neuerthelesse I am content as I haue said to do it so that my wantes may be supplied with furniture of bookes such as I shall desire Rainoldes The learned men of your side it lyeth not in me to procure hether I would to God none of them had euer come from Rome with traiterous intente nay more then intent to moue rebellion against our Soueraine and arme the subiectes against the Prince It had fared better both with you and others who came from him that sent them Your imprisonment and daunger which hath hereon ensued I can more easily pittie then relieue I wish you were at libertie so that her highnes were satisfied whome you haue offended The condition of conference the which is offred you is not so vn-euen in deede as in shew For although I come fresh from the vniuersitie yet I come from one of those vniuersities wherin your selues report that few of vs do study and those few that study study but a few questions of this time onely and that so lightly that we be afeard to reason with common Catholikes or if we do reason the common sort of Catholikes are able to answere all our arguments and to say also more for vs then wee can say for our selues You of the other side haue béene brought vp in one of those Seminaries wherein all trueth is studied the maisters teach all trueth the schollers learne all truth the course of diuinitie which our students nay our Doctors and Readers can not tel almost what it meaneth is read ouer in foure years with so great exactnes that if a man follow his study diligently he may become a learned Diuine and take degree Yea besides the Lectures of positiue Diuinitie of Hebrue of controuersies of Cases of conscience the Lecture of Scholasticall Diuinitie alone wherein the whole bodie of perfit Theologie doth consist doth teach within the same foure yeares all the poyntes of Catholike faith in such sort that thereby the hearers come to vnderstand not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith but also whatsoeuer is in all the Tomes of Councels wrytings of Fathers volumes of Ecclesiastical histories or in any other Author worthie the reading Wherefore sith you haue heard this course of diuinitie and haue béene admitted to take degree therein vpon the hearing of it you may not alleage vnripenes of yeares or reading or iudgement especially against me before whome in time so long in place so incomparable you tooke degrée in diuinitie if yet our degrées may goe for degrées the Pope hauing depriued vs of them But you haue no bookes sauing the Bible onely You are it is likely the redier in that booke chiefly sith at Rhemes beside your priuat studie of it you were exercised in it dayly by reading ouer certaine Chapters wherein the hard places were all expounded the doubtes noted the controuersies which arise betwixt you and vs resolued the arguments which our side can bring vnto the contrarie perspicuously and fully answered So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me who can be content to deale with you in conference by that booke alone as by the booke of all trueth Notwithstanding though
Peter not only my Lord but as Thomas did our Sauiour My Lord my God It is a desperate cause that wil admit no colour The Stewes of Rome haue found patrones and that which is worse then Stewes The heathens called Domitian Our Lord God the Emperor A Canoniste saith of the Pope Our Lord God the Pope Blasphemous spéeches both yet a quareller might alleadge in defense of them I haue sayde ye are Gods But the very heathens by the light of nature mislyked the one as insolent neither haue I read any Papiste no nor Iesuite that durst defend the other It was a common practise amongst the young students of our Uniuersities in the time of the Dunses and is yet amongst too many whom spottes of Dunsery haue stayned that if in disputation they were brought to an inconuenience were it neuer so absurd they would haue a distinction though voyde of braine and sense yet a distinction to mainteyne it If a man wil be peruerse it is no mastery to doe it But as a wise and learned man doth say of them that they are base wits which are so affected whereas ingenuous mindes natures wel geuen wil rather seeke howe true that is which they holde then how they may defend it making greater price of veritie then victorie so I may say yea much more in matters of religion of faith of life eternall a Christian witte and godly minde will search and weigh rather what should be saide truely then what may be said probably or colourably at the lest And I wish if it had béene the good will of God master Campian had had the grace in the Tower-conference to haue aimed at this marke rather in sinceritie to haue sought the truth then with shiftes and cauilles the mayntenance of his cause and credit But though he were froward and did shut his eyes against the beams of the light yet doe you not so for Gods sake master Hart in this conference of ours Be content to open your minde to hys grace who standeth at the dore knocketh and hearken to his voice while it is to day Beware of their example who could not beleeue or if they did beleeue durst not confes Christ because they loued the praise of men more then the praise of God and hunted after honor one of another not seking for that honor which commeth from the Lord alone Deny your selfe and your frends and all fleshly respectes geue the glory to the Highest Hart. I neither séeke for shiftes to darken the trueth nor loue the praise of men more then the praise of God It were a madnesse for a man to aduenture his life as we doe you see for the maintenance of error or of his own credit As for M. Campian I thinke of him as of my selfe I heard the disputations wherein he answered them who came to reason with him and I perceyued nothing in any of his answeres but synceritie and trueth Rainoldes My selfe was not present at the disputations but I haue read them written and that least you suspect the wryter as partiall by a fauourer of yours who was present as he saith at the whole action And I doe affyrme it in singlenesse of heart as before the Lord neither doe I doubt but al who haue the wisdome to discerne spirites wil see the same if they peruse them he sought in such sort to maintaine the credite of his cause or person as though he had set nothing more before his eyes then to perswade his proselytes that nothing could bee brought against him but he would shew it made for him I would not say so much vnlesse I knew it by his fruites For to passe ouer his often glosing against the text and facing out of places which pressed him most forcibly thinges alleadged out of the Councels of the Fathers of others which by the iudgementes of your own doctors haue that sense wherin we cyte them he by shifts and cauilles would turne their neckes cleane about and wreste them vnto his side which argued more witte then trueth and sophistrie then sinceritie But to leaue him to the Lords iudgemēt and come vnto your selfe you neither séeke for shiftes you say to darken the trueth nor loue the praise of men more then the praise of God I pray God your déedes be not as plaine to prooue you do it as the reason which you adde to proue you do it not is weake For what although it were a madnesse to doe it Many things are done which madde men scarce would doe and yet they that doe them doe think themselues well in their wittes as the Donatistes did who aduentured their liues in most desperate maner for the defence of their error and maintenance of theyr credite yea they offred themselues to the sword the fire the water séeking for death as for a treasure that they might die they thought Martyrs But whether you doe set the praise of men at that price I leaue it to your owne conscience That you seeke for shiftes the thing it self doth crie For your very answere in the defense of Leo touching vnitie of will not vnitie of substance on these words of his that Christ receiued Peter into the felowship of the indiuisible vnity is a shifte to shield him from a iust reproofe Let his owne Discourse speake and it wil graunt it For hauing saide before that Christ did place Peter as it were a certaine head to poure his giftes from him as it were into all the body to this poynt he knitteth these words by way of proofe So that if the proofe haue any kin with the thing proued the words must néedes import some preeminence in Peter aboue all the rest of the Disciples of Christ. But vnitie of wil wherein Christ doth pray that his Disciples may be one as he is one with his Father is common vnto all not peculiar to Peter as Christ himselfe doth shewe That plaister then of yours hath no vertue in it to salue the sore of Leo. Neither can you cure it indéed with any other For the vnitie which the Scriptures doe note in God and vs is of three sortes the first of persons in one nature the second of natures in one person the third of sundrie natures and persons in one qualitie In the first is One God In the second is One Christ In the third is One church The Lord receiued not Peter into the first vnitie wherein the father the sonne the holy Ghost are one God Not into the second wherein he himselfe consisting of two natures God and man is one Christ. Into the third wherein the Churche is one with Christ her head and the Churches members are one amōgst them selues he did receaue Peter but in societie with his brethren not without them in singularitie The multitude of the belieuers were of one hart
so taken that he meant the laying of Peter as a principall stone next to him selfe and others vpon him wheÌ„ he sayd Thou art stone and vpon this stone will I build my church this sheweth that Peter was in the first ranke as I may say of stones I meane he was in order with the first who beléeued and amongst those first he had a marke of honour in that he was named stone aboue his brethren But it sheweth not that he should be head of the rest of the Apostles For as he so they are called foundations and Christ did build his church as well on them as on him Hart. Then you grant that Christ did promise to build his church vpon Peter Rainoldes I doo so Hart. Not vpon his doctrine onely but his person Rainoldes After a sort What then Hart. What then What say you then to Doctors of your owne side namely to Sadeel and Mornay whom you praised so greatly and brought them me to reade They write that the church was builded not vpon the person of Peter but vpon his doctrine preaching Christ vnto vs. You graunt the contrarie Rainoldes What say you to the auncient Doctors whom they follow chiefly to S. Austin He writeth that the rocke which our Sauior promised to build his church vpon is Christ and not Peter You hold the coÌ„trary Thou art Peter saith he and vpon this rock which thou hast confessed vpon this rock which thou hast knowne saying Thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God will I build my church I will build thee vpon mee not me vpon thee For men entending to build on men said I hold of Paul I of Apollos I of Cephas that is Peter and others who would not be builded vpon Peter but vpon the rocke said I hold of Christ. For the rocke was Christ vpon the which foundation Peter him selfe was builded sith no man can lay an other foundation beside that which is laide which is Iesus Christ. What say you to the rest namely to Gregorie Nysâ—en to Cyril to Chrysostome to Ambrose to Hilarie They write that this rocke is the consession of Peter They say not it is Peters person Hart. That exposition of S. Austin denying Peter to be the rocke was lapsus humanus as D. Stapleton calleth it caused by the diuersitie of the Gréeke and Latin toong which either he was ignorant of or marked not Howbeit neuerthelesse it hath a true meaning though not the full proper sense of this place Besides that him selfe doth other-where expound it as vnderstood of Peter according to the famous verses of S. Ambrose in which he calleth Peter the rocke of the Church The rest of the Fathers who apply the rocke to Peters confession imply his person in it For to say that the Church is built on the confession and beliefe of Peter is all one in déed and to say it is built on Peter confessing and beleeuing in Christ. Wherefore in as much as they affirme the former they prooue withall the later by it Rainoldes S. Austin and the Fathers are beholding to you whose wordes though not answering well to your fansies are handled so gentlie If you were as fauourable to Sadeel and Mornay that which they write of Peter would haue a true meaning Though if they with greater zeale vnto his doctrine then vnto his person that is to Christ then to Peter had giuen a litle lesse to him then is due the faulte were not so much to bée â—aide on their restraint as on your excesse who say a great deale more of him then you ought For example Father Robert the Prince of the Iesuites in his Diuinitie lectures read publikelie at Rome about seuen yeares agoe handling this same point of the foundation of the Church did ground him selfe on a sentence of the Prophet Esay to proue it to be Peter and Peters see the see of Rome Whereof to make his proofe strong by the wordes which God doth speake of Christ Behold I lay in Sion a tried pretious corner stone a sure foundation he affirmed that Esay did therein prophecie not of Christ but of Peter a stumbling stone to heretikes a rock of offense but to Catholikes a tried a pretious a corner stone S. Peter the Apostle expoundeth those wordes not of himselfe but of Christ. Father Robert the Iesuit sayth that they agrée not to Christ but to him So to aduaunce the Popes dignitie by Peter he maketh Peter himselfe nay the holy Ghost a lier Such blasphemous outrages of your chéefe professors giuing more to Peter then staÌ„deth with the truth and honor of the Sonne of God might prouoke the godly spirites of his seruantes to bend to the contrarie as husbandmen when they would straighten a young plant that groweth crooked one way do bow it to the other But in the discourse of Sadeel and Mornay that the Church is built vpon the confession of Peter not his person there is no straining of ought beyond the truth for the meaning of it by your owne iudgement For they approue and folow the exposition of S. Austin and that you affirme hath a true meaning As for the maner of S. Austins spéech I graunt it séemeth somewhat tough to expound those wordes of Christ as if he sayd Thou art Peter and vpon me not Thou art Peter and vpon thee will I build my Church But if the circumstances of his spéeche bée weighed you shal find not only the meaning of it true but the maner good For as it is writen that God commaunded the Iues to offer burnt offerings sacrifices vnto him yet God sayth in Ieremie that he spake not to them neither commaunded them touching burnt offerings and sacrifices not as though he had not commanded the things but because he did not commaund them in that sort and respect as they vsed them so though it be true that Christes wordes to Peter doe import this sense Vpon thee will I build my Church yet because hée spake them in respect of Peters profession and faith vpon Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God not in respect of Peters person which they built on who sayd I hold of Paul I of Apollos I of Cephas S. Austin might expound them well as he doth that Christ sayd to Peter I wil build my church not vpon thee but vpon me In the which conclusion the rest of the Fathers who expound it of Peters confession doe ioyne with S. Austin Neither can your shuffling of Peters coÌ„fession with Peter confessing inueigle their consent For they doo expound and vnderstand it plainelie some of him whom Peter confessed that is Christ the Sonne of the liuing God some of Peters faith wherwith he confessed him as by which the faithfull are builded on Christ. And this is their meaning in saying that which your men doo vainelie triumph at the church is built on Peter
the lesser it appeareth by the controuersie betwéene Austin and Ierom concerning the reproofe of Peter whether Paule rebuked him in earnest as blameworthie or dissembled with him and made a duetifull lie which Ierom termed an honest policie For your selues graunt that Austin who thought that Paule reproued him in earnest did iudge therin more soundly truely then Ierom did who thought that he dissembled Yet Ierom alleaged more Fathers on his side and made so great account of them that he desired Austin to suffer him to erre with such men if he thought him to erre Whereupon S. Austin replyed that peraduenture hee might finde as manie Fathers on his side if he had read much But I saith he haue Paule the Apostle himselfe in stead of these all and aboue these all To him do I flie to him I appeale from all the Doctors his interpreters who are of other mindes Of him do I aske whereas he writeth to the Galatians that hee sawe Peter not going with a ryght foote to the truth of the Gospell and that hee withstood him to his face for it bicause by that dissembling hee constrayned the Gentiles to doo lyke the Iewes whether he wrote true or did lye perhaps with I know not what politike falshood And I do heare him a litle before making a very religious protestation in the beginning of the same discourse The thynges whych I write vnto you beholde I witnes before God I lye not Let them who are of other mindes pardon me I beleeue rather so great an Apostle swearing in his owne and for his owne words then anie man be he neuer so learned talking of the words of an other A wise and frée iudgement worthie of S. Austin Whereby you may perceiue that your rule of folowing the greater number of the Fathers in expounding the scriptures is but a leaden rule not fitte which should be vsed to square out stones by for building of the Lords temple Hart. This of Austin sheweth that we may vary sometimes from the greater number of the Fathers and refuse their iudgement But that as Torrensis hath obserued well must bee with two cautions One that the thing wherein we varie from them be a knowne truth The other that we do it with reuerence and modestie Rainoldes UUith reuerence and modestie God forbid else As Elihu reproued Iob as Paule reproued Peter But for the other caution how shall we know a thing to be a knowne truth Hart. Oneâ—way to know it and that a good way is the common testimonie of the faithfull people if they with one consent beleeue it to be true Rainoldes This bringeth vs small helpe to the expounding of scriptures For things may be true and yet a place of scripture not applied truely and rightly to proue them As it is plaine in places that haue béene applied by Christians against the Iewes But let it be a good way UUhat if the faithfull people doo dissent As in the question which we haue in hand about the Popes supremacy the people of the east church dissented from the west many hundred yeares together UUhat shall we doo then Hart. Then an other way a better way to finde it is the common testimonie of the faithfull Pastors if they doo decrée it in a generall councell As for the Popes supremacy they did in the Councell of Lateran Rainoldes The Bishops of the east church say that the Councell of Lateran was not generall which the Pope him selfe doth acknowledge also as it is noted on your law But here the former difficulties méete vs againe and bréede the same perplexitie For there are but few places of Scripture which generall Councels haue expounded neither is it likely the Pope will assemble them to expound the rest Againe although you say that generall Councels can not erre in their conclusions yet you say they may erre in applying of Scriptures to prooue their conclusions Lastly generall Councels may dissent too as heretofore they haue in a weightie point offaith touching Christ. The which incommodities being all incident into this which presently we debate of as our conference will shew you sée that you haue not yet resolued me One question I must aske you more In this case when Councels say nothing of Scriptures or misapply them in proofes or dissent in conclusions what are we to doo Hart. If Councels dissent we must follow those which are confirmed by the Head And to answere all your questions in a word whether with the Councels or without the Councels that which the Head determineth is a knowne truth that which the Head condemneth is a knowne errour Rainoldes You meane by the Head not our Sauior Christ but the Pope I trow Hart. I the visible head Rainoldes Doo you not sée then by your owne answeres that whatsoeuer shew you make of Fathers and Councels the Pope is the man that must strike the stroke So that to bring it to the point in controuersie whereas our question is whether that the Pope be supreme head of the church you say He is so UUhen we sift the matter and séeke the reasons why this is the summe of all Because him selfe saith so I thought that the church should haue béene your lawier to expounde your euidences but now I perceiue that you meant the Pope Hée is the churches husband belike and in matters of law dealeth for her I cannot blame you though you be content to make him your iudge too For if he giue sentence in this cause against you I will neuer trust him Hart. You doo gather more of mine answers then I meant I pray make your owne collections and not mine Rainoldes I doo gather nothing but that which you haue scattered For you began to try this point touching the Pope by the wordes of Scripture The wordes we agrée decide by the sense the sense must be tried you say by the Fathers the Fathers by the truth the truth by the people the people by the Councels the Councels by the Pope If one of vs should make but a semblance of such an answere you would sport your selues with it and call it a Circulation and cry against our impudency whoope at it like stage players But you may daunse such roundes and yet perswade men that you go right forward with great sobrietie and grauitie Hart. Howsoeuer you dally with your circulations rounds as you call them I say no more but this that if a truth cannot be knowne otherwise then the last meane to resolue vs of it is the Popes authoritie But there néeded not so much adoo hereof if I proue that Christ did giue that supremacie whereof we talked to S. Peter Rainoldes You can neuer proue that Christ did giue it him but by the word of Christ which is the holie scripture And the scripture standeth in substance of the sense not in
a Pharise too Yet the duetie and loue which Paule did owe and beare to his father and master should neuer haue excused him before the iudgement-seat of God if he had cleaued still to the Pharises sect when God did lighten him with greater knowledge of his truth As for me of whom some will giue their iudgement with what spirite I do it if I iest at your Pharises or touch your holy mothers whooredomes and villanies of your holy Father mens iudgements I depend not of I neither feare them nor despise them I haue a iudge to whom I stand And I content my selfe that he assureth my spirit I doo it with the same spirit though not with lyke measure of the same spirit that Elias did iest at Baalites and Esay did touch idolaters Wherefore to go forward with your discourse of D. Stapleton against our errour of expounding the scriptures by scriptures you haue the grounde of it that they must be expounded by the rule of faith and therefore not by scriptures onely Now as his ground is so are his proofes both for your owne meanes first and afterward against ours What infallibilitie and certaintie there is in yours the practise of the church the consent of the Fathers the Councels determination it will appeare in place of triall more hereafter it hath in part alreadie when you were faine to flie from them all to the Pope whom here the Doctor had forgotten Touching ours he proueth them to be deceitfull and vnsure how because each of them if they be taken seuerally may cause a man to erre which he sheweth by examples in some of the particulars as the weighing of the circumstances the style and phrase of scripture the conference of places the loking on the Greeke and Hebrue First if it were so what shall I call this dealing trecherie or folly Wee teach of our meanes that they all togither doo make a perfit way whereby wée may finde the right sense of the scripture He replieth against vs that each of them alone and taken by it selfe is not a perfit way to finde it In the which aunswere if you sée not his weakenes to speake the best of it I will set before you a glasse to view it in It is not many yeares ago since Captaine Stukely the Marques of Ireland as your stories call him was sent with sixe hundred Italians by the Pope to take possession of Irelande Which he was comming to haue done but that at the request of the King of Portugall he went and tooke possession of Barbarie by the way An English man might say to comfort good subiectes that by Gods grace these Italians and the Marques if they had arriued might haue bene discomfited by the Quéenes army as the Popes souldiours were who came after them D. Sanders might reply to incourage the rebels that they néed not feare it because the Quéenes souldiours though they haue some strength yet each of them alone and seuered from the rest cannot ouercome sixe hundred Italians with such a Captaine too And for proofe hereof that it is verie likely he might haue store of arguments examples and testimonies to discourse at large with as great eloquence and no lesse wisedome then D. Stapleton hath done to proue the other Yet this in D. Stapleton is a demonstration Had the other bene a demonstration too No maruell that you send vs so many bookes ouer if they be fraught with wares of such demonstration Maruell you send no mo vnlesse it be lawfull for none but publike readers so subtilly to proue their things by demonstration Now if your Doctors answere be absurd though none of our meanes were certaine and sure alone without the rest to finde the right sense of Scripture how much more absurd if any one of them alone be sure and certaine and that in his owne iudgement too The conference of places of the scripture is so though he would hide it with a mist. But the mist which he casteth is no thicker then the former A weake eye may sée through it For we say that a right conference of places is a way most excellent as himselfe rehearseth our wordes of that point And he thereto replyeth that a wrong conference a left one so to terme it is no such excellent way Which is as if we said that wise men and vertuous are fit to beare offices in the common-weale and he to proue the contrarie should say that madde men and knaues are no good magistrates If we can sée through this mist the conference of places is a perfit way For that which we meane by conference of places S. Austin doth signifie by the rule of faith But the rule of faith is a way infallible in your Doctors iudgement Therefore to iudge him of his owne mouth the conference of places is a way infallible If this alone much more this all the rest being ioyned togither The meanes then which we commend to vnderstand and expound the scripture are sure and certaine meanes whereby the right sense of scripture may bée found But your Doctor saith that al heretikes and Iewes Paynims vse these meanes they conferre places they note the kinde of speeches they looke vpon the fountains they marke what goeth before what commeth after such like things If they doo not so your Doctor ouer-lasheth If they doo so they doo more then himselfe dooth in many cōtrouersies of faith which yet he teacheth publikely and printeth them too What And do all heretikes Iewes and Paynims vse these meanes and doth none of them sée the churches practise marke the consent of Fathers read the decrees of councels If anie of them doo which it is euident many doo then by as wise a reason as your Doctor maketh these his owne meanes are not sure neyther Which were a sore consequence and would raze the church of Rome vnto the ground Let him bethinke him selfe thereof and heale the breaches which if he looke not to it his owne shot will make in the walles of his Ierusalem As for vs and our meanes if any seeme to vse them and yet misse the right sense of the scripture I say with S. Austin whom this quarell maketh as much against as vs If they who know these precepts cannot see the things which are obscure and darke in the Scriptures of God the faulte is in them selues not in the precepts as if I should point with my finger at a starre which they would gladly see and their eie-sight were so weake that although they could see my finger yet could they not see the starre at which I point Wherefore as S. Austin concludeth of them Let them cease to blame me and let them pray to God that hee will giue them eye-sight so we do acknowledge that al meanes are vaine vnlesse the Lord giue eies to see whom therefore the Prophet made his prayer
they do go with him or else the oth-maker meant not to bind you to it Let vs giue a passeport then vnto the Fathers It may be that the man was moued in conscience by light of truth to vary from them Let vs heare what moued him The same is not meant saith he by the keyes and by the wordes to bynd and loose as some men haue thought And why For all the Schoolemen are of opinion that to bynd and loose doth note a power iudiciall in the outward court onely to remit and retayne sinnes in the inward court By the outward court he meaneth the consistorie wherein the church-discipline and censure is exercised By the inward court the conscience wherein a mans trespasses and sinnes are bound or loosed So in effect he saith that the power of remitting sinnes and censuring sinners were onely meant in the spéeches of Christ to the Apostles and not the most ample and large power of keyes promised to Peter by the iudgement of all the Schoolemen Which proofe though it cannot weigh as much for him as the Fathers against him yet herein his dealing is orderly and plaine that leauing the Fathers he cleaueth to the Schoolemen For when all is done the Schoolemen are the men that must vphold Papistrie with the fréendly helpe of the Canonists their bréethren The Scriptures and Fathers would be pretended for a shew to countenance the matter But they are like to images in olde buildings of antike worke which are framed so that with their shoulders they séeme to beare the roofe whereas that in déed doth rest on walles or pillars The Schoolemen and the Canonists the fountaines of the corruption which hath infected the Church of Christ the Schoolemen in doctrine by the opinions of Popery the Canonistes in discipline by the state of the Papacie the Schoolemen and the Canonists are the two pillars that vphold your Church as the house of Dagon in the which the Philistines triumph and insult ouer the faith and God of Samson What then if the Schoolemen whose oppositions of science falsely so called are noted by S. Paule that Timothee may auoid them who the most ofthem came with féete vnwashed into the Lordes sanctuarie who being ignorant of the tongues wherein the holy Ghost wrote great helpes to vnderstand his meaning searched not the sense of scripture in the scripture but in humaine sense and so expounded it thereafter what if they say that to bynd and loose doth make a iudge onely in the outward court to remit and retayne sinnes in the inward court and both import lesse then the keyes which open all in court and country I haue prooued the contrary by conference of the Scriptures You can not deny but that the Fathers teach the contrary Where is your discretion Who though the Scriptures as we proue the Fathers as you graunt do say it is so yet you say it is not so because the Schoolemen thinke not so As if you should say in a matter of state which is allowed and ordained by the Quéene and Councell that although they will it yet may it not be doone why because the Yeomen of the kitchin like it not Hart. If you beleeued so rightly as you ought with Catholikes you would not thinke so basely of Schoolemen as you do For as Melchior Canus writeth well and truely the contempt of Schoole-diuinitie is a companion of heresie the heresies of Luther of Wicklef of Melanchthon and in a word of all the Lutherans do seeme to haue flowed most from that fountaine euen from the despising of the Schoolemens iudgement But howsoeuer you estéeme them their common opinion when they all consent and agree in one is of such weight with vs that we account it a point of great rashnes and almost of heresie to dissent from them They haue not such ornaments offiner learning and the tongues as some in our daies haue but they haue the substance the pith of all sciences chiefely S. Thomas of Aquine one of the grauest and learnedst diuines that euer Christes church had whatsoeuer ignorant heretikes which vnderstand him not esteeme of him Rainoldes My iudgement of the Schoolemen is such as they deserue If Canus haue iudged more fauourably ofthem hée is to be borne with sith him selfe desired to be thought a Schoolman Though if I should graunt them as much as he doth that when they all agree in one they must be folowed they would not trouble vs greatly in many pointes of faith For they are at such contention for themost part and that about such matters that S. Paules reproofe of questions and strife of words neuer fel on any more iustly then on them But as Canus speaketh of Schoole-diuines and Schoole-diuinitie he and I dissent not though I bée against them and he for them in shew Sophocles the poet a writer of tragedies being asked ofhis frend why whē he brought in the persons ofwomen he made them alwaies good whereas Euripides made them badde because I quoth he doo represent women such as they should be Euripides such as they be So the matter fareth betweene me and Canus For he dooth paint out Schoolemen such as they should be and I such as they be I speake against them who peruerting the scriptures haue prophaned diuinitie with philosophie or rather sophistrie and yet are called Schoole-diuines whē they are neither Schollers in truth nor Diuines He accoūteth none a Schoole-diuine but him who reasoneth of God and thinges concernyng God fitly wisely learnedly out of the holie scriptures ordinances of God Now if none be a Schoole-diuine but such nor any diuinitie Schoole-diuinitie but that which is set on the foundations of the holie scriptures as Canus doth define it then shall I gladly both yéeld to Schoole-diuinitie follow Schoolediuines but I deny them to be Schoole-diuines whom you meant in citing Schoolemen Yea euē Thomas of Aquine whō your Popes set more by then by al the Doctors placing him as chiefest and first after the scripture and worthily for he was the first thorough-papist of name that euer wrote and with his rare gifts of wit learning and industrie did set out Popery most that he might well be praysed as the standerd-bearer of the fayth mainteined by the Councell of Trent euen him will I folow so lōg as he sheweth himself such a Schoolman as Canus prayseth to vs. But he sheweth not himself such a Schoole-man whē he doth as he doth oft so much we vnderstand in him kepe down the truth set vp errour either by mistaking the scripture against scripture or by holding the corruptions of faithfull men as incorrupt or by following the glimses of Philosophers as perfit light By mistaking the scripture through faultie translations or expositions of men By the corruptions of the faithfull in the practise of the church or some opinions of Fathers By the glimses of Philosophers in taking
greatest danger of Peter he putteth him in minde first of his fall to humble him then of his rising to comfort him last of his duetie to quicken him vnto it His fall to coole the heate of pride and vaine glorie may I so terme it with the Fathers wherein hee presumed more then the rest did of his faith and constancy His rising that he should not despaire when he had fallen For though he dealt vnfaithfully denying Christ thrise yet his faith should not faile because he whom God doth alwayes heare had praied for him His duetie that being raised vp againe he should strengthen his brethren as hauing learned by experience both to haue compassion of the infirmitie of men to preach the goodnes and mercy of God The last point of his duetie was common to him as I haue shewed with the Apostles and therefore proueth no preeminence of supreme headship The first of his fall proueth a kinde of preeminence but in the denying of Christ aboue others which Popes haue best right to but they doo not claime it The other of his rising insueth and dependeth on that of his fall wherin sith he specially would sinne more then the rest and so his danger be more speciall and therefore néede more speciall succour Christ said to him in speciall But I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not For Christ prayed the same for all his Apostles in sense though not in word by that solemne prayer made vnto his father I haue declared thy name vnto them holy father keepe them in thy name and sanctifie them with thy truth Neither did he pray this for them onely but for all the faithful which should beleeue in him through their word Wherfore as a good father hath care of all his children but if he sée some one distressed aboue the rest wil cheare him vp beside the rest a good Physition hath care of all the bodie but applieth plaisters to the part affected so Christ to helpe Peter who was to be distressed diseased most encouraged him with this comfort that his faith should not faile and laide that salue of Gods assured fauour on the sore of distrust that might afflict his minde Now this care and wisedome of a father and a Physition doth shew for the childe part whereto they tender it not that they be in greater honor then the rest but that they stand in greater néede The wordes of Christ therefore spoken vnto Peter I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not doo proue that he stood in greater danger then the rest not that he was in greater dignitie And these are the words of which D. Stapleton doth insolētly vaunt that they are so singular for Peters supremacy that Caluin when he had diligently weighed all other places reasons that are wont to be brought for it refuted them as he could made no mention at all of this place these words because he knew well that it was impossible to shift of words so manifest with any colour of a cauill Whereas it is most likely that Caluin a wise faithfull seruant of the Lord did therfore passe them ouer in handling your supremacy because he knew they made so litle for your purpose that if he should haue brought them in amongst your reasons he might séeme to haue sought a shadow wherewith to fight For you abuse them so notoriously that if I say not Caluin but any of the meanest children of the Prophets whom God hath scarcely giuen one portion of his spirit to would deale with you for it we haue as iust cause to charge you with this fact as Tamar had to charge her brother Ammon with his vilany Hart. Good Lord what meane you so to say Rainoldes Nay I may rather aske good Lord what meane you so to doo For as Amnon enamoured of his sisters beautie ensnaring her by fraude did force her to his lust and after cast her out whervpon she said this euill was greater then the other which he had done vnto her so the Pope enflamed with loue of the church entrapping her with guile and vsing violence vnto her doth cast her out of doores by giuing this as proper first to Peter then to him selfe that Christ prayed for him that his faith should not faile Wherein I haue this reason to say that he doth greater euill vnto the church then was the other which he did because in the other she had this comfort left that the transgression was rather his who did then hers who suffered force in this he taketh from her all comfort of her misery and maketh her ashamed to cast her eyes on God or man For what is the comfort of the Churche of Christ the faithfull and elect but that he hath prayed for vs that wée fayle not that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against vs that our hope might be an ancre of strong consolation that we doo beléeue and are assured by Gods spirite wee are the heires of life eternall of the which comfort that incestuous Amnon séeketh to bereaue vs and cast vs out of the doores when he saith that Christ prayed for Peter onely and after Peter for the Pope But of the Pope in due place Now we speake of Peter Hart. Why Dare you deny that Christ spake to Peter and to Peter onely when he said Simon I haue prayed for thee that thy faith should not faile Dooth not the very text of the Gospell shew it Rainoldes What Dare you deny that Christ spake to the man sicke of the palsie and to him onely when he said Sonne be of good comfort thy sinnes are forgiuen thee Dooth not the verie text of the Gospell shewe it But is this a proofe that other Christians haue not their sinnes forgiuen too And doo wée all beléeue in vaine when we beleeue forgiuenes of sinnes Or may you not affirme it with as good reason as you affirme the other of Peter not to faile in faith Are you the maisters of Israell who make so great boast of skill in all Diuinitie and doo you not know that Pastors and Preachers of whom Christ was the chiefest apply the generall doctrines of the lawe and Gospell to them in particular who néede to be reléeued thereby If I should say to some couetous man who grindeth the faces of the poore and buildeth vp his house with blood or ioyneth benefice to benefice and taketh charge of a flocke which he féedeth not Let thy conuersation be without couetousnesse for he hath saide I will not faile thee nor forsake thee doo I take this comfort of the prouidence of God from euery other Christian because I assure it to one in particular Or did the Apostle ouershoote himselfe in saying that to all the faithful which God said to Ioshua I will not leaue thee
this you say he raileth at the Fathers Of me who would kéepe it you say I cast colours What shall I do to please you Hart. You shall please me if you dissent not from them but onely in such thinges as be knowne truthes Which is another rule of ours if you remember it Rainoldes I remember it well and herein I haue kept it For it is a truth and a knowne truth that the Fathers write in fauour of the Saintes some thinges which ouerlash the truth if a man examine and trie them by the touch-stone Peter himselfe shall be the Saint in whose example I will shew it Hilarie vpon the wordes of Christ vnto Peter Get thee behinde me Satan thou art an offense to me saith it is not meete we should thinke that Christ did call Peter Satan but Christ said to him get thee behind me and no more the rest to the Deuill not to him Satan thou art an offense to me The same Hilarie almost but Ambrose quite cleane excuseth Peter from all fault in that he denied Christ nay Ambrose commendeth him Peter answered saith he I know not the man He well denied him a man whom he knewe to be God Clemens and Eusebius whom Oecumenius foloweth do write that that Peter whome Paule did withstand and reproue at Antioch was not Peter the Apostle but an other I know not who of the same name one of the seuentie disciples Wherefore sith it is known by the word of truth that Christ called Peter Satan that Peter denyed Christ that Paule withstood and reproued Peter and it may be knowne by the writtnges of the Fathers how they vary from this truth in fauour of S. Peter that by washing out the spottes which seeme to staine him his praise may be the more glorious I hope I might take it for a knowne truth that the Fathers write some thinges 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to praise the Saintes of God wherein if their wordes be sifted precisely they ouerlash the truth sometimes In saying whereof if you thinke I cast colours and vse wordes too smooth I can amend that faulte with speaking more roughly as Ierom doth who saith that the sense which Hilarie and Ambrose giue of Peters words I know not the man as though denying Christ he had denied him man because he knewe him God they gaue it of a reuerent affection to Peter but wise readers see howe friuolous it is if they so defend Peter that they make God a lyer For if Peter denied not then did the Lord lye who said Verely I say to thee this night before the cocke crow thou shalt denye me thrise Behold what he saith thou shalt denye me not the man Or if S. Ieroms words be too smooth also I can speake more roughly yet with Theophylact who saith that they who make that defense of Peter doo make a foolish defense Thus if you compare my words with Theophylacts Ieroms I vsed modestie if with that which other of the Fathers write I did it in a knowne truth when I dissented from Chrysostom Doo I please you now Hart. I wonder that you set your selfe against S. Chrysostome a Father so auncient so learned so godly so skilfull in the Scriptures Rainoldes Let me aske you a question What thinke you of Christ Was he alone frée from all spotte of sinne both original and actuall or was the blessed virgin frée from it also Hart. You know our minde thereof She was frée from it also Rainoldes S. Chrysostom saithe the contrary a Father so ancient so learned so godly so skilfull in the scriptures Yea and he groundeth therin vpon the scriptures which he doth not in yours of Peter Hart. But other of the Fathers say the same that wee say with whom we do dissent from Chrysostome Rainoldes If I shold aske what Fathers say it of actuall sin hard for you to name them As for originall your own Canus sheweth they all say the contrary But if many said it yet you may sée by this which I haue shewed of Chrysostom what brokeÌ„ réeds you leane on wheÌ„ you leane on such reasons Chrysostome doth say so therfore it is so And if other fathers be of as good credit to win you from others vnto a point of truth as to a point of error then wil you be as readie to leaue his opinion in this point of Peter as you haue bene to leaue it in that of the virgin For a number of Fathers eueÌ„ a whole Councell of Bishops of Africa togither with S Cyprian doo write that Peter did according to the lesâ—ons and preceptes of God in that he proposed vnto the disciples the ordeining of an Apostle in the roome of Iudas to the end they might deale by common aduise and voice therin Wherefore if you haue Fathers in such regard as you pretend and do rather follow the consent of many then the mind of one which is your owne rule in exposition of scriptures you must yéeld that Peter might not haue done that which Chrysostom saith he might vnlesse you will say that he might do that whereof he was commanded and taught the contrary by God But if this opinion be so rooted in you that reason cannot wéede it out wonder not at me who beside the scripture haue Fathers more then you haue and therefore by your iudgement the exposition of the Fathers Wonder at your selfe who hauing neither of them stand against them both Wonder at your Doctor who hauing vndertaken to proue the Supremacie by that which Peter did in the Actes of the Apostles telleth what he might haue done by Chrysostomes supposall Wonder at your Pope who building on the word not of God but of man and finding mans foundation ouer-weake too doth not practise that which Chrysostome commendeth in the fact of Peter but doth chalenge that which Chrysostome imagineth of the right of Peter Hart. If Peter would not vse his owne right of modestie his fact doth not bind the Pope his successor but that he may vse it Rainoldes That refuge will not serue vnlesse you proue two things whereof neither is true One that this soueraintie was the right of Peter an other that the Pope succeedeth him in all his right By the way what soeuer you déeme of his right you graunt that he doth not succéed him in modestie Hart. It is not expedient for him to doo in euery thing as Peter did But that he succeedeth Peter in all his right I will proue then when I haue proued Peters right Now that this soueraintie was the right of Peter and that he had as full power in the assemblies of the Apostles as the Prince hath in a Parlament or the Pope in a Councell S. Chrysostomes wordes were not all so pregnant vpon the first of the Actes as S. Ieroms are vpon the fiftéenth to proue it inuincibly
at Ierusalem at Antioche at Ephesus at Rome that from the mother cities as they were called religiō might be spread abroad vnto the daughters Now because this residence in the mother-cities was afterward supplied by the Bishops of them therefore the Fathers are wont often-times to call the Apostles Bishops of those cities wherin they did abide most Which they might the rather for that the word in their spéech betokeneth in a generall meaning any charge ouersight of others in so much that the scripture applieth it to the ministery of the Apostles also And in this sort it seemeth to be said as by Cyprian that a Bishop was to be ordeined in the roome of Iudas so by Ierome that Peter was Bishop of Antioch by Chrysostom that Iames was Bishop of Ierusalē Though whither it wer or no yet that which I spake in defense of Chrysostō is cléered by himself frō your reproch of a shift For he saith that Iames was Bishop as they say Which words as they say import that he spake it on the words of others most likely of Clemēs frō whom Eusebius fetcheth it But if notwithstanding you reply that Chrysostom allowed that they say and supposed Iames to be a Bishop properly then his words haue so much the greater importance against your supremacy séeing that they giue the principalitie to Iames in his owne dioces and that aboue Peter Howbeit I will not take this aduantage because I know that neither Peter nor Iames gaue the definitiue sentence but when they had spoken their mindes of the matter the Councell did define it and decrée it with common iudgement Hart. They did it with common iudgement I deny not But Theodoret sheweth that Peter as a Prince had a great prerogatiue therein aboue the rest yea gaue definitiue sentence to which the rest consented and as it were subscribed For he in an epistle which he wrote to Leo affirmeth that Paul did runne to great Peter to bring a resolution from him vnto them who contended at Antioche about the obseruation of the lawe of Moses Rainoldes You may cite if you list S. Isidore too for an other speciall prerogatiue of Peter as good as this and grounded likewise on the Actes which he alleageth to proue it to wit that the name of Christians arose at Antioche first through the preaching of Peter For though hee bée more direct against the scripture which sheweth that the name of Christians arose vpon the preaching not of Peter but of Paul and Barnabas yet is Theodoret direct against it too by giuing as proper peculiar to Peter that which was cōmon to the Apostles and Elders whose resolution he was sent for And as Isidore séemeth to haue ouershot him selfe by flip of memorie on too great a fansie perhaps towardes Peter in like sort Theodoret séeking to get the fauour of Leo bishop of Rome whose help he stode in neede of did serue his owne cause in saying that Paul ranne to great Peter that so he might run much more to great Leo. Which words to haue issued out from that humor his commentaries on the Scriptures where he sought the trueth and folowed the text shewe For therein he saith of Barnabas and Paul that they ran not to great Peter but to the great Apostles and had a resolution from them of the question about the keping of the law Howbeit if Theodorets words vnto Leo suffered no exceptiō the most were that Peter pronounced the definitiue sentence as President not gaue it as Prince But the Scripture it selfe by the rule whereof his wordes must be tryed maketh no more for Peters Presidentshippe then for Iames and whosoeuer were President it sheweth that neither Iames nor Peter but the Councel gaue the definitiue sentence So well it proueth that which you vndertooke to proue concerning Peter that he had as ful power in the assemblies of the Apostles as the Prince hath in a parlament yea or the pope in a Councell Harte It proueth that wel-inough though not to you chiefly if other places thereof be waied withall For the singular power of Peter is declared also by S. Paul in that he saith to the Galatians Then after three yeares I came to Ierusalem to see Peter and taried with him fifteene dayes Rainoldes The singular power of Peter In which words By what reason Because hee went to Ierusalem to see him Or because he went after three yeares Or because hee stayed with him fifteene dayes Hart. The reason consisteth in that which Paule did the cause for which he did it For he went to Ierusalē to see Peter Why but to do him honour as Ierom saith in his Commentaries and in an epistle to Austin Peter was saith he of so great authoritie that Paule wrote Then after three yeares and so forth And Chrysostome Because Peter saith he was the mouth of the Apostles the chiefe and top of the company therefore Paule went vp to see him aboue the rest Because it was meet saith Ambrose that he should desire to see Peter vnto whom our Sauiour had committed the charge of Churches Which also Tertullian affirmeth that he did of duetie and right Nor otherwise Theodoret he gaue saith he that honour to the prince of the Apostles which it was fitte hee should Hence it is that S. Gregory doubteth not to say that Paule the Apostle was the yonger brother And S. Austin an Apostle made after Peter who saith moreouer that the primacie of the Apostles is conspicuous and preeminent with excellent grace in Peter Rainoldes You bring in witnesses not necessarie to proue a thing not denied For that Paule was as Apostle in time after Peter and so his yonger brother as Gregory Austin and Ambrose say that he went to see Peter for honor and reuerence which he bare to him as it is in Ierom Chrysostome and Theodoret that he did this of duetie and right what right and duetie of the same faith and preaching of the gospell to shew his concord with him which is the meaning of Tertullian all this will I graunt you the scriptures teach as much what néede the Fathers to proue it Hart. Will you graunt all that which I alleaged out of the Fathers then will you grant that Protestants are in an error and the truth is ours For they auouch plainely the primacie of Peter and call him the mouth the prince the toppe of the Apostles Rainoldes Alas you were agreed me thought to go through with the scripture first afterward come to the Fathers I wisse they will giue you small cause of triumphing ouer the Protestants when you shall bring their forces out into the field and see with whom they ioine with you or with vs. But of the rest then Now I graunt you so much as doth concerne the point for
As for the later of calling him to account although your good wéening of the Pope persuadeth you that he would not thinke his state to be abased if the Cardinals should aske him why he dooth this or that yet they who knew him better a great deale then you and loued him so well that they woulde not belie him doo witnesse not onely by word but by writing that he will not bée dealt withall by his inferiours as Peter was by the Apostles I meane not your Canonists in whose glose it goeth for a famous rule that none may say vnto the Pope Syr why do you so But I meane the learnedst and best of your Diuines who setting the Church aboue the Pope in authoritie mislike that the Pope will not be subiect to the Councell Of whom to name one for many Iohn Ferus a Frier of S. Francis order but godlier then the common sort intreating in his Commentaries written on the Actes of the example of Peter how hée was required to render a reason of that which hee had done maketh this note vpon it Peter the Apostle and chiefe of the Apostles is constrained to giue an account to the Church neither dooth he disdaine it because he knew him selfe to be not a Lorde but a minister of the Church The Church is the Spouse of christ and ladie of the house Peter a seruant and minister Wherefore the Church may not onely exact an account of her ministers but also depose thē reiect them altogither if they be not fit So did they of old time very often in Councels But wicked Bishops now will not be reproued no not of the Church nor be ordered by it as though they were Lordes not ministers Therefore they are confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Doo you know what Bishops they be who refuse to bee subiect to the Church Who say they are aboue the Councell Who may iudge all and none may iudge them This Preacher a Preacher of your own not ours dooth call them wicked Bishops The Lord of his mercy make his wordes a prophecy that those wicked Bishops may be confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Hart. You bring me wordes of Ferus which were not his perhaps but thrust into his commentaries before they came vnto the print by some malitious heretike For Sixtus Senensis saith that there are witnesses of very good credit who auouch that the commentaries of Ferus vpon Matthew were corrupted by heretikes after his death before they were printed Rainoldes Sixtus saith in déede of his Commentaries vpon Matthew that they were corrupted chiefly in that place where Ferus speaketh of the keyes that Christ did promise Peter For there is set downe as a speciall note that Christ saith to Peter I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen hee saith not the keyes of the kingdome of earth These wordes pertaine nothing to an earthly power which yet some endeuour by them to establish affirming that Peter receiued fulnes of power not only in spirituall things but also temporall And after declaration how this is plainely reproued by S. Bernard writing to Pope Eugenius it is added farther Peter receiued the keyes that is to say power not an earthly power that he might giue and take away dominions and kingdomes neither such a power that it should be lawfull for him to doo what hee list as many men dreame but he receaued the power of binding and loosing opening shutting remitting and retaining sinnes neither this at his pleasure but as a minister and seruant doing the wil of his Lord. And these are the words which sauour so strongly of an hereticall spirite that Sixtus saith it is auouched by credible witnesses the cōmentaries of Ferus on Matthew wer corrupted after his death by heretikes chiefly in this place before they wer printed Wherin both the witnesses Sixtus in my iudgement haue shewed thē selues wise For it is better to beare men in hand that heretikes corrupted the commentaries of Ferus chiefely in this place then it should be thought that the strongest hold of all your religion the Popes supreme power to giue and take away kingdomes is shaken by a man so learned so famous so Catholike as Ferus But Sixtus saith not of his Commentaries on the Acts that they were corrupted also by heretikes Yet some heretikes hand may séeme to haue béene in them chiefely in this place where he doth reproue the arrogancie of the Popes and nameth them wicked Bishops Wherefore it would do well that the ouersight of Sixtus herein were mended by some other Sixtus who might say as much of Ferus on the Actes as Sixtus saith of him on Matthew Perhaps you haue not witnesses that wil auouch this as some auouched that The least matter of a thousand For two or three such as Surius Pontacus and Genebrardus men that haue sold them selues to make lies in the defense of Popery will be readie on the credite of a Lindan or Bolsecke not only to say it but to Chronicle it too Here is al the difficultie that these bookes are printed thus amongst your selues who set them foorth first and we receiue them at your hands A great faulte I know not whether of printers or censours and allowers of bookes to the print who suffer such scandalous places to bée printed Yea to be printed so still specially when Sixtus Senensis hath said and credible witnesses haue auouched that heretikes did corrupt them No no M. Hart it is too stale a iest to say that heretikes haue corrupted the commentaries of Ferus For the abomination of the Popes supremacie oppressing both the magistracie of the common wealth and ministerie of the Church is grown to such outrage that if we whom you call heretikes should hold our peace the stones would cry against it Hart. What néedes all this of Ferus Or Sixtus Or Canonistes Or I know not who You called me to the scriptures whē I brought the Fathers and now from the scriptures you bring me to writers of our owne age Rainoldes Not from the scriptures to them but to the scriptures by them As Christ when the Phariseis sclaundered his workes alleaged the example of their own children therby to make them sée the truth And as he said to them therefore your children shall be your iudges so I say to you therefore your brethren shall be your iudges Hart. I graunt that the Pope doth not in all respectes submit him selfe as Peter to giue account of his dooings both to the Apostles and to inferior Christians But Ferus should haue considered and so must you that the times are not like It were not conuenient for him to do so now Rainoldes So I thought the case is altered You meane by the times the mē who liue
in the times I trow In déede they are not like For Peter was then a preacher of the Gospell as Pastors are now and the Pope now is a Prince of the world as Nero was then The fifth Chapter The Fathers 1 are no touch-stone for tryal of the truth in controuersies of religion but the Scripture onely 2 Their writings are corrupted and counterfeits do beare their names 3 The sayings alleaged out of their right writinges proue not the pretended supremacie of Peter HART What soeuer difference there is betwéen the Pope Peter in state and power of worldly gouernment yet Peter had the same authoritie and primacie ouer the Apostles which the Pope claimeth ouer all Bishops And this because you will not yéeld vnto the Scriptures I will proue by the Fathers whose testimonies of it are most cléere and euident Rainoldes Whether I or you refuse to yéeld vnto the scriptures let the godly iudge As for the Fathers I like your dealing well in part For I wished that first you would go through with the Scriptures and then when you had found nothing in them come to the Fathers afterward But I wish further if I might obteine it that you had the Scriptures in such price and honour as the word of God that no word of men should be matched with them to build your faith vpon For God hath giuen his word to be a lanterne to our feete and a light to our path that we may sée the way to heauen and walke in it And the holy Ghost saith that the Scriptures are able to make vs wise vnto saluation wise by instructing vs in the faith of Christ vnto saluation by leading vs to life through that faith Wherfore sith we conferre about a point of wisedome perteining vnto faith and life you should do very well to rest on the Scriptures as the onely touch-stone for tryall of the truth therin Hart. Now at length I heare that which I looked for I thought for all your duetifull words of the Fathers that you would come ouer to the Scriptures onely before you made an end Rainoldes Why Is my behauiour towarde men vndutifull because I am duetifull vnto God aboue them Hart. There is a worthy treatise of an auncient writer Vincentius Lirinensis against the profane innouations of all heresies a passing fine booke which it is wished that al such should read as wil know the truth You haue read it perhaps and what thinke you of it Is it not a golden booke Rainoldes The booke is good enough if it haue a wise reader Hart. Say you so Yet some there be of your side who are afraid of the name of Vincentius Lirinensis Rainoldes They are worse afraid then hurt for any thing that I know But what of Vincentius Hart. He saith it is so common a practise of heretikes to alleage the scripture that they neuer bring almost ought of their own but they seeke to shadow it with words of scripture too And hauing shewed this by sundry examples he addeth that therein they folow the practise of the Deuill their maister Who tooke our Sauiour Christ and set him on a pinnacle of the temple and said vnto him If thou be the sonne of God cast thy selfe down For it is written that he will giue his Angels charge ouer thee that they shall kepe thee in all thy waies with their hands they shall lift thee vp least perhaps thou dash thy foote against a stone If thou saith he be the sonne of God cast thy selfe down Why For it is written We must with great heede obserue and remember the doctrine of this place that when we see words of the Prophets or Apostles brought foorth by any men against the Catholike faith we way be assured by this great example of the authoritie of the Gospel that the Deuil doth speake by them Thus saith that auncient Father Vincētius Lirinensis Whose words do manifestly disproue your opinion that the truth of pointes in faith should be tryed by the scripture onely Rainoldes The ciuill law saith that it is vnciuill for a man not hauing weighed the whole law to giue aduise or iudgement some one parcell of it being alone proposed Your dealing with the wordes of Vincentius Lirinensis is guiltie of this vnciuilitie For he to instruct vs how we may continue sound in the faith against the guiles of heretikes and suttletie of Satan who doth transforme him selfe into an Angell of light teacheth that our Sauiour hath to this entent both forewarned vs of the danger and foreshewed vs a remedy Forewarned vs of the daunger in the precept that he gaue Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheepes clothing but inwardly are rauening wolues For what saith he is sheepes clothing but the sincere and soft words of the Scripture which are alleaged by false prophets as well as by the true What are the rauening wolues but the cruell meanings and senses of heretikes which vnder sheepes clothing do rent the flocke of Christ Foreshewed vs a remedy in the lesson that he adioined Ye shal know them by their fruites That is to say when they be gin not onely to alleadge those wordes but to expound them and citing them as true prophets do not interprete them as true prophets then are the wolues seene by their teeth and rauening then are their bloudy natures known for all their fleeces then are the faithfull teachers discerned from seducers the true Apostles from the false the Angell of light from the Angell of darknes the ministers of righteousnes from the ministers of Satan Which thinges set downe and prosequuted more amply and fully he draweth in fine vnto this conclusion the summe of all his treatise that although the scriptures alone be sufficient for all pointes of faith yet is it not sufficient to haue a shew of the wordes but we must also haue the substance of the sense that is the true and naturall meaning of the scriptures Now if this discourse of his be weighed whole and not a parcell of it seuered from the rest what can you proue thereby more then I will graunt Nay more then I haue graunted and proued alreadie when I shewed that the right sense of the scripture expounded by the scripture is the sword of Gods spirit wherewith all heresies must be vanquished The Deuill you say alleaged the wordes of the scripture against Christ. He did so Yet he alleaged thē not wholy entirely as Vincētius hath them but as the Euangelistes rehearse them maimedly Wherein if Vincentius obseruing the attempt that the Deuill alleaged the wordes of the scripture had withall obserued the suttletie of the tempter how he alleaged them hée might haue better noted the deceites of heretikes abusing scripture then he did and so haue better fensed the right-beléeuing Christians with power of scripture then he hath For he reporteth it so as if the Deuill had
God by inspiration and is the word of God Wherefore if you will take the golde of Vincentius you must grant that scripture alone is sufficient to trie the truth from errour and to mainteine the Catholike faith against heresie Hart. You doo not deale well in misreporting so the words of Vincentius For he setteth downe two meanes by the which we must fense our faith against the guiles of heretikes eschue their snares first by the authoritie saith he of the scripture then by the tradition of the catholike Church You leaue out altogither that which he saith of tradition and handle him in such sort as though he had spoken for the scripture onely Rainoldes It is not your purpose I hope to beguile mée by the colour of his wordes It may be that your selfe are beguiled in them For he by the traditiō of the catholike church meant the true and right exposition of the scripture made by faithfull pastors and teachers of the church as his owne words immediately shew And this I made mention of in that I said that scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes if it be taken in the right sense the catholike sense hee calleth it You séeme to imagine that he meant by the worde tradition vnwritten verities as they haue bin termed or as you terme them now traditions which the Trent-Councell dooth account as much of as of scriptures and coupleth them togither to make a sufficient perfit rule of truth as though that onely scriptures were insufficient for it Which errour was so far from the minde of Vincentius that he saith expresly that he dooth not adde the traditiō of the Church to the authoritie of the scriptures as though that the scriptures were not thēselues alone sufficient for all thinges yea more then sufficient but to shew that because heretikes doo wrest and misse-expound the scriptures therefore we must learne their right sense and meaning deliuered to the godly by the ministery of the Church In which consideration as S. Paule writeth that he did deliuer according to the scriptures the things which he taught and therevpon nameth his doctrine traditions as you would say things deliuered so Vincentius mentioneth both the Churches tradition to note the ministerie of the Church deliuering the sense of scriptures and the Churches traditions to signifie the rules of faith according whereunto the scriptures are expounded as I haue shewed by scriptures Wherefore the wordes that your Vincentius speaketh touching the tradition and traditions of the Church do ioine hands with that which I did deliuer of the truth in pointes of faith to be tried by the scripture only Hart. You may not cary so the wordes of Vincentius away in a cloude For though he may séeme to haue meant in generall by the tradition of the Church the expounding of scriptures according to the rule of their right and Catholike sense which the Pastors of the Church deliuer yet comming to particulars he frameth that rule not out of the scriptures but out of the opinions which the Church holdeth in matters of religion For he asketh him selfe when heretikes pretend scriptures what shall the Catholikes doo How shall they discerne the truth from falshood in the scriptures Whereto he maketh answere that they must take the scriptures in the sense of the Church and therein they must folow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent By the which thréefold meanes to trie the truth he instructeth vs that we must hold that which the church of our time doth hold through all the world vniuersally If a part of Christendome diuide and cut it selfe from the faith of the whole then are we bound to folow the whole and not the part If the whole in our time be stained with any error then must we haue respect to the former time and cleaue to antiquitie If all in antiquity agreed not about it then looke too consent as what a generalll Councell did decree therof or if no such decree be what all the Fathers thought or if not all what the most euen they who continued in the faith and felowship of the Catholike Church And whatsoeuer we find that not one or two but all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually let vs be assured that we must hold also that without all doubt Thus Vincentius sheweth how he would haue the truth to be tried by the church if the church be soūd by the vniuersalitie of our own time if that be corrupt by the antiquitie of the former time if that be at variance by the consent of all or most of the Fathers Wherfore if you will stand vnto his iudgement to which you giue countenance as though you liked it you must not call the tryall of truth in religion to the scriptures onely but to the consent of the Fathers rather Rainoldes I liked his iudgement in the generall point touching the sufficiencie and perfitnes of scriptures which I know you like not though you make greater semblaunce of liking him then I. If in the particulars I mislike somewhat let the blame be laid vpon the blame-worthy not me who stand to that which he hath spoken well but him who falleth from it For laying his foundation as it were on a rocke he buildeth vp his house beside it on the sand That scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes so that it be taken in the right sense expounded by the rules of the Catholike faith this hath hée well auouched as on the rocke of Gods word But that the rules of faith and sense of the scripture must be tried and iudged by the consent antiquitie and vniuersalitie of the Church this hath he added not so well as on the sand of mens opinions The difference of the pointes may be perceiued by S. Austin who ioining in the former of them with Vincentius doth leaue him in the later For Austin as he setteth the ground of religion in the right sense and Catholike meaning of the scripture so teacheth he that this must be knowne and tried by the scripture it selfe the infallible rule of truth not by the fickle minds of mē And to haue taught hereof as Austin doth it had agreed best with the foundation of Vincentius which maketh the rule of scriptures alone sufficient for all thinges But because the weaker and ruder sort of Christians haue not skill to know the right exposition of scripture from the wrong therefore he tempering him selfe to their infirmitie doth giue them outward sensible markes to know it by Wherein he dealeth with them as if a Philosopher hauing saide that a man is areasonable creature should because his scholers cannot discerne of reason whereof the shew is such in many brute beastes that some haue thought them reasonable describe him more plainely by outward markes and accidents as namely that he hath two feete and no
feathers They report that Plato defined a man so a man is a liuing creature two-footed vn-feathered For which definitioÌ„ when he was commended Diogenes tooke a Capon and hauing pluckt his feathers off did bring him in to the schoole of Plato saying This is Platoes man The holy word of God is the same in the Church that reason is in a man Whereupon we giue it for an essential marke as I may terme it of the Church by which the Church is surely known and discerned But the shew of Gods word is such in many heretikes as of reason in brute beastes that some who haue no skill to discerne that marke doo thinke it impossible to know the Church by it Your felowes hereupon describe the Church by outward and accidentall markes as namely by antiquity succession consent These are very plausible and many do commend them highly But he that hath halfe an eie of a Philosopher I meane a wise Christian néede not playe Diogenes in plucking feathers off to shew that these markes may agrée to a capon Now as they deale with the markes of the Church so doo you M. Hart with the markes of the truth Not Vincentius but you who couer your errors with the name of Vincentius and take thinges as necessary and sure proofes of truth which he did note as probable and likelye tokens of it onely For he deliuered them not as neuer failing but as holding often and such as albeit they doo hit sometimes yet do they misse sometimes also Whereof him selfe is witnesse in that he disproueth them the first vniuersality by the example of the Arians and flyeth from it to antiquitie the second antiquitie by the example of the Donatistes and flyeth from it to consent Hart. But the third consent he speaketh of as neuer failing as a necessarie token to know and trie the truth by as an essentiall marke and proper to the pointes of Catholike faith and truth And this is the marke which chiefly I regarded when I alleaged Vincentius that our questions might be tried by the consent of the Fathers Rainoldes In déede he preferreth this marke before the rest as hauing held when they fayled Neuerthelesse he speaketh not so of it neither as that it may serue for tryall and decision of questions betwéene vs. For what doth he acknowledge to bee a point approued such as we are bound to beléeue by this marke Euen that which the Fathers all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually And who can auouch of any point in question that not one or two but all the Fathers held it nor onely held it but also wrote it nor onely wrote it but also taught it not darkely but plainely not seldome but commonly not for a short season but continually Which so great consent is partly so rare and hard to be found partly so vnsure though it might be found that him selfe to fashion it to some vse and certainetie is faine to limit and restraine it First for the matters that we are to seeke and follow their consent not in all litle questioÌ„s of the scripture but in the weighty pointes of faith Then for the persons that we must folow all or the greater part because in many pointes all of them consent not Finally which cometh néerest to our purpose he graunteth that there may such heresies arise as must be dealt withall by the scripture onely and not by the Fathers for purposing to shew both in what maner and what kind of heresies may be found out and condemned by the consenting sentences of the Fathers he saith and confirmeth that neither all heresies must be assaulted in this sort nor alwaies but only such as are new and greene to weete when first they spring vp before they haue falsisied the rules of auncient faith the very straitenes of time not suffering them to do it and before the poyson spreading abroad farther they endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers But heresies that are spread abroad and waxed old must not be set vpon in this sort because they by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth And therefore whatsoeuer profanities there be either of schismes or heresies that are waxed auncient we must in no case deale otherwise with them then either to conuince them if it bee nedeful by the authoritie of scriptures onely or at the least auoid them being of old time conuicted and condemned alreadie by the generall councels of Catholike Bishops Lo when heresies are growne to be in yeares auncient and ample in places when they haue got antiquitie and vniuersality then must we fight against them not by consent of Fathers but by the authoritie of the scriptures only This is the sentence of Vincentius Lirinensis in that passing fine booke against the profane innouations of all heresies Is it not a golden senteÌ„ce Hart. The cause why Vincentius affirmeth that heresies when they are spread far and haue long continued are to be confuted by the scriptures onely not by consent of Fathers is that which he dooth point too of endeuouring to corrupt the writings of the Fathers a common practise of heresies if occasion and time serue them But there is no colour why therefore you should refuse to deale with vs by the consent of Fathers For neither are the doctrines which we professe heresies much lesse olde and ample heresies such as he speaketh of nor haue wée endeuoured to corrupt the writings of the Fathers nay wée haue kept them and endeuour daily to set them foorth most perfitly But your heresies in déede although they sprang of late and may be counted new and greene yet haue they endeuoured to corrupt the Fathers since and haue done it The practise of Erasmus is famous therein Of whom to say nothing what censures haue béen giuen by other worthy men whoÌ„ Torrensis nameth Marian Victorius in CoÌ„mentaries that he set foorth vpon the former thrée tomes of S. Ierome reproueth most learnedly more then sixe hundred errours thrust into them by Erasmus either in expounding or ill correcting them And Torrensis in his preface to the Confession of S. Austin declareth sundry bookes to be S. Austins owne which Erasmus had noted as falsly fathered on him Wherefore if by Vincentius you minde to touch them who endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers cast out the beame out of your owne eie before you séeke a mâ—atâ— in ours Rainoldes Yet you sée by the way though you make hast away from it what rotten postes they be whereon as principall pillars your church and faith is built vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Of which it is shewed by Vincentius himselfe that heresies may iustly claime the two former vniuersalitie and antiquitie and make a faire chalenge to the third consent in processe of time so cunningly can they file the Fathers to their
purposes But you may not be touched with any such suspiciō Why Because the doctrines which you professe are not olde and ample heresies you say no not heresies ours are so not yours Whether in opinions of faith and religion which are in controuersie betwéene vs you or we doo hold heresies that is the point in question Your or mine yea or nay is no sufficient proofe of either But of which soeuer it shall appeare by conference that they are repugnant to the holy scriptures let them be iudged heresies and the men heretikes who stubburnly mainteine them Thus much you can not choose but grant that your opinions are olde and spread abroad for you claime antiquitie vniuersalitie whereof you say that our opinions haue neither It is more likely therefore by Vincentius that you who by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth should corrupt the Fathers then wée who haue not had it And in very truth as the worship of Images the greatest abomination that first preuailed in Poperie was confirmed by writings very vncertaine and fabulous yea by dreames of women and visions of Deuils in the second Nicen Councell as the thing it selfe and great Clerkes of your owne testifie so the rest of your errours which ouerflowed Christendome in darkenes of superstition haue bene most authorised by forged déedes and bastard writings begotten by some varlets and fathered on the Doctors The Schoolemen and Canonists whose handes were chiefe in this iniquitie did beare the whole sway for many yeares togither in Uniuersities and Churches The Doctors Fathers were pretended much but more pretended then regarded and their bookes corrupted what through ignorance of scriueners who copied them out before the vse of printing what through impudence of forgers who coined counterfeites in their names Now when they lay thus distressed and diseased in the dust of Libraries Erasmus a man of excellent iudgement and no lesse industrious then learned and wittie did enterprise first to cure them and brought them foorth into the light In the workes of S. Ierome which were most of all depraued aboue others chiefly the former tomes he did what he could both to clense them from blemishes and to lighten them with his notes Hee professed that his coniectures in restoring of places had not satisfied himselfe alwaies He promised that if any man should restore them better hee would both embrace his trauaile very gladly and reioyce at the publike profit What sparkle of thankfulnes but I let go thankfulnes what sparkle of ingenuitie was there and good nature in Marian Victorius who requiteth such a worke so carefully attempted so painfully performed so modestly excused with the tauntes and contumelies of erring of lying of craftines of ignorance of heresie of impietie Aristotle writeth of them who begin a thing in pointes of learning that although they seeme to do lesse then others who receiue it of them and after adde thereto yet they do more in deed because the beginning of euery thing is hardest and it is easie to adde Wherevpon he craueth of such as he hath sought to benefite by his labour thankes for that he found pardon for that hee missed If Victorius haue profited no better in the schoole of Christ let him goe to Aristotle and learne first to thinke more humbly of him selfe afterward to deale more modestly with others And you who like of him because hee findeth fault with the dooings of Erasmus as a shoomaker did with the picture of Apelles for missing in a shoo-latchet may know that good and learned men among your selues haue found fault with him for being bold beyond the shoo That dooth Molanus witnes one of your chiefest Doctors and Censors of bookes who in S. Ieromes workes set foorth at Anwerpe hath therefore circumcised the lippes of Victorius Hart. Molanus hath reproued and corrected him for vnciuill spéeches against the person of Erasmus as wherein he past the boundes of Christian modestie not for ouersight in that hée laid errours to Erasmus charge Though the speciall point for which we blame Erasmus is not this so much of errours in S. Ierome His censures on S. Austin are misliked most in that he reiecteth sundry bookes as counterfeit which Torrensis proueth to bee S. Austins owne Whereof the importance and danger is the greater because some will haue nothing taken for S. Austins but what Erasmus hath allowed Rainoldes Molanus did couer the sinnes of Victorius whē he found no other fault with his notes but of vnciuill spéeches If fauour to the man and fansie to the cause had not made him partiall he might haue said of him that as he past the bounds of Christian modestie in railing at Erasmus person so had he past the boundes of Christian truth in noting errours of Erasmus But he that would affirme Erasmus to be ignorant of the Greeke toong wherof his workes so many both in diuinitie and humanitie through all sortes of writers doo proclaime the contrarie néedeth no other Censor to aduertise men with what eyes he looked into Erasmus dooings It was not Erasmus ignorance of Greeke which bredde so many errours in his corrections of or notes vpon S. Ierome It was his knowledge of the Latine the Romane churches faults It was his skil of the Italian abuses of the Pope It was the triacle which he giueth that séemeth poison vnto you These thinges because they moued many to suspect that somewhat in Popery was not of the best it was thought expedient that they should bee taken out of S. Ierome Victorius to doo it with a faire shew pretended other errours but through too much choler hee bewraied his humour He lacked that discretion which hath bene shewed since by the Diuines of Louan in setting foorth the notes of Viues on S. Austin For they haue omitted a great many things wherin Viues touched their Popes and Churches sores yet say they not so much Only they say that certaine things are omitted certaine as not many and errours they name them not neyther tell they what Now if the notes of Viues on S. Austin haue found such disfauour the censures of Erasmus on him may better beare it And to say the truth they haue deserued it at your handes For in those censures hath Erasmus shewed that many bookes doo falsely beare S. Austins name by which as by the warrant of S. Austins iudgement sundry of your Schoolemens and Canonists dreames haue bene aduanced and aided But he reiecteth some as counterfeit you say which Torrensis proueth to be S. Austins owne And what maruell is it if amongst hundreds he were deceiued in one or two And hauing had triall of many false titles he thought somefalse which were not A fish that hath béene touched once with the hooke is saide to feare the hooke vnder euery meate They who
to dispose to loose and bind These sayings are alleged by Thomas of Aquine out of S. Cyrils worke entitled the treasure But in S. Cyrils treasure there are no such base coines to be founde Wherefore either Thomas coined them him selfe for want of currant money or tooke them of some coiner and thought to trie if they would go Hart. Doo you know what iniurie you doo to that blessed man S. Thomas of Aquine to whose charge you lay so great a crime of forgerie Rainoldes None I at all to him whose counterfeits I discrie But he did great iniurie to the poore Christians whom hée abused with such counterfeits Your Saint-maker of Rome did canonize him for the holinesse of his life and learning The greatest triall of it was in his seruice to that Sée And are you loth to haue it knowne Hart. But why should you thinke either him to be the counterfeiter or the sayings to be counterfeit when as Cope sheweth they are alleaged not only by him but by other too Namely by that worthie and most learned Cardinall Iohn of Turrecremata who was at the Councell of Basill before him by Austin of Ancona yea by Graecians themselues who were at the councell of Florence Andreas Bishop of Colossae and Gennadius Scholarius the Patriarke of Constantinople Of whom when the former said in the Councell that Cyrill in his treasures had very much extolled the authority of the Pope none of all gainesaid him The later in a treatise that hee wrote for the Latins against the Graecians touching fiue pointes whereof one is the Popes supremacy citeth the same testimonies although perhaps not all which S. Thomas of Aquine doth out of Cyrill Yet you amongst so many choose him whom you may carpe at and thinke that wordes alleaged by them all are counterfeites Rainoldes Counterfeites are counterfeites though they go thorough twenty hands Al these whom you name out of Harpsfieldes Cope did liue long after Thomas and séeme to haue alleaged S. Cyrill on his credit as Cope himselfe doth also Wherefore I could not think that they had béene the coiners of that which was before they were But Thomas is the first with whom I finde the words and therefore greatest reason to laie the fault on him vnlesse he shew from whom he had them At least séeing I know the words are not Cyrils whose Thomas saith they be I did him no iniurie I trust when I said that either he receiued them at some coyners handes or coyned them him selfe Hart. Although the wordes are not to be found now in those partes of Cyrils treasure which are extant yet that is not sufficient to proue that either Thomas or some other forged them For Melchior Canus affirmeth that heretikes haue maimed that booke and haue razed out all those things which therin pertained to the Popes authoritie Which same thing to be done by them in the Commentaries of Theophylact vpon Iohn the Catholikes haue found and shewed Rainoldes Mée thinkes you and Canus deale against vs as the men of Doryla did against Flaccus Whom when they accused out of their publike recordes and their recordes were called for they said that they were robbed of them vpon the way by I know not what shepheardes You accuse vs that we deny the Pope his right of the supremacy The recordes by which you proue it his right are the wordes of Cyrill Cyrils wordes are called for that they may be séene You say they are not extant you are robbed of them by I know not what heretikes Whereon to put a greater likelihood you say further that heretikes haue done an other robbery in Theophylact as they are charged by Catholikes And this doo you say but you say it onely you bring no proofe you name no witnesse you shew no token of it If such accusations may make a man guiltie who shall be innocent Hee that should haue dealt-among the heathens so would haue bene counted rather a slaunderer then an accuser Hart. Admitte that the words were not razed perhaps out of any booke of Cyrill which we haue Yet might they be in some of them which are lost or not set forth in Latin For we haue no more then fouretéene bookes of his treasure whereas the two and thirtieth is cited by the Fathers in the sixth general Councell And this is enough to remoue suspicion of forgery from Thomas and other who alleage them Rainoldes Nay although the two and thirtieth be mentioned by the Fathers there yet meant they no more of Cyrill then we haue For that which in our Latin edition is the twelfth is the two and thirtieth in the Grecians count Hart. This is an answere which I neuer heard It hath no likelyhood of truth Rainoldes Peruse you the place which toucheth that of Cyrill and the wordes them selues will proue it more then likely Hart. The Councel hath it thus Hoc sanctus Cyrillus in trigesimo secundo libro Thesaurorum docet epistolam ad profanos explanans nec enim vnam naturalem operationem dabimus esse Dei creaturae vt neque id quod creatum est ad diuinam deducamus essentiam neque id quod est diuinae naturae praecipuum ad locum qui creatis conuenit deponamus Rainoldes This sentence alleaged out of the two and thirtieth of Cyril in Gréeke is in the twelfth booke of our Latin Cyrill Sauing that he being translated by an other hath it in other wordes But there is the sentence the very same sentence which the Councell pointeth too Hart. It might be there first and yet againe afterward in the two and thirtieth as manye vse one sentence often Rainoldes But the circumstance of the place doth rather import it to be the very same For the Councell saith that Cyrill hath these wordes explanans epistolans ad profanos where he expoundeth the epistle to profane men And what meant they by this epistle ad profanos to profane men Hart. How can I tell what they meant when that booke of Cyrill whereof they speake is lost Rainoldes It should be the epistle ad Romanos to the Romaines Romanos made profanos by the printers error vnlesse he did it of purpose to shew what now the Romanes be or some corrector chaunged it least wee by this circumstance should find the place of Cyrill For this where he expoundeth the epistle to the Romanes is a great argument that the Councell meant the place in the twelfth booke where Cyril doth handle such pointes of that epistle as concerned the matter that he had in hand Which that he should doo againe in the same worke with the same sentence touching the same matter they who know Cyrill will not thinke it likely The lesse because it is an vsuall thing with the Grecians to diuide bookes otherwise then the Latins doo As in the Gréeke testament the gospell of S. Marke hath more then
all equally Wherfore by Ieroms iudgement Peter was not ouer the Apostles in power If not in power yet in part of gouernment in what but in that preeminence which I spake of S. Ierom therefore saying that Peter was appointed head of the Apostles did meane that preeminence among the Apostles and not a soueraintie aboue them Hart. The wordes of S. Ierom doo speake somewhat too liberally of the Apostles in that he saith the church is built vpon them all equally And as D. Stapleton noteth very well the distinction touching things writen by the Fathers some by way of doctrine and some of contention is verified in them For here by occasion that he reasoneth against Iouinian who alleaged against the honour of virginitie that Christ preferred Peter a maried man before the rest he doth lessen and extenuate the authority of Peter as farre as truth did giue him leaue making the rest equall to him for the Apostleship yet affirming plainely that he was head of the rest Rainoldes Ierom wrote many things in déed against Iouinian by way of contention rather then of doctrine to the disgrace of marriage In so much that being therefore reproued by some himselfe excuseth it that he did rather striue thē teach and Pammachius a learned gentleman his fréend did suppresse the copies and wished them to be concealed till he had corrected them But neither was this place so reproued by them or excused by him for ought that may be gathered by his apologie nor is it to be noted as sauouring more of heate then truth for the substance of it agreeth with the scriptures Yea Stapleton who couereth it with this distinction confesseth in effect as much at vnawares For he saith that Ierom doth lessen and extenuate the authoritie of Peter as far as truth did giue him leaue Wherof it ensueth that it is no vntrueth to say as Ierom doth that all the Apostles had equall power with Peter The name of head therefore which Ierom giueth him with the same breath can by no meanes import a soueraine power ouer the Apostles Unlesse you will make him so absurd and brainesicke as that he should say Though none of the Apostles were soueraine of the rest but they had equall power all yet was one of them aboue the rest in power and had the souerain-headship of them Hart. Wel. Howsoeuer you handle Ieroms wordes he saith in flat termes that which you denyed And therefore he maketh against you with vs. Rainoldes In what point Or how Hart. You denied that Peter was head of the Apostles Ierom saith he was Peter was not head and Peter was head Is there not a contradiction betwéene your words and his Rainoldes No more then betwéene the wordes of Iohn and Christ Christ said of Iohn Baptist this is Elias Iohn Baptist said of him selfe I am not Elias Iohn Baptist is Elias and Iohn Baptist is not Elias Is there not a contradiction betwéen the words of Christ and Iohn Hart. No. For Christ meant one way and Iohn Baptist an other Christ that he was Elias in spirit as coming in the spirit and power of Elias Iohn Baptist that he was not Elias in person which the Pharisees meant Rainoldes You haue answered well So Ierom meant one way and I an other Ierom that he was head in a preeminence of gouernment as moderating the actions in assemblies of the Apostles I that he was not head in soueraintie of power which the Papists meane And thus to conclude you may see that the Fathers whom you alleage for Peter some giue him a prerogatiue of authoritie some of primacie some of principalitie but none of your supremacie For your supremacie doth consist in power and they giue equall power to Peter with the rest Hart. Equall power I graunt in respect of the Apostleship but not of pastoral charge For Peter was ouer thē in that euen as the Pope is ouer Bishops And so we do expound the words of S. Cyprian S. Ierom S. Chrysostome and other of the Fathers who giue equall power to the Apostles with Peter Rainoldes Yet more of these Colewortes I haue proued alreadie that Peters pastorall charge and his Apostleship is al one and therefore if they were equall to him in the Apostleship the were in pastorall charge too But if no other reason will put you to silence the Popes own authority may force you to it here For in the Cyprian set forth by him at Rome he noteth it to be considered that whereas Cyprian saith The rest of the Apostles had equall power with Peter this must be vnderstood of the equalitie of Apostleship which ceased when the Apostles died and passed not ouer vnto Bishops The drift of which note implieth a distinction of Apostles and Bishops that it is not with Bishops in respect of the Pope as it was with the Apostles in respect of Peter And that doth cary with it a checke of your opinion which maketh the Apostles vnderlings to Peter as Bishops to the Pope Hart. You knowe not who made that note in the Roman Cyprian for there is no mans name to it But if the Pope either made it him selfe or allowed of it being made by others to whom he did commit that charge he set down as a priuate Doctor his owne opinion which they who list may folow But this is my opinion which I haue set downe and to that I stand Rainoldes I am glad you thinke not as the Pope doth at least in one point God graunt that you may come forward in the rest to dissent from him not in this one point alone but in many Howbeit whether he or others made that note they set it forth with greater authoritie and priuilege then as a priuate Doctors fansie Neither is it likely that they would haue graunted so much to the Apostles vnlesse the truth had wroong it from them Let your righteousnes M. Hart if not exceede yet match the righteousnes of Scribes and Pharisees and yéeld to this conclusion which riseth of our conference that Peter was not head of all the Apostles as you do take the name of head Hart. You shall conclude your selfe alone so for me For I do protest that I beléeue it not nor mind to yéeld vnto it The sixth Chapter The two maine groundes on which the supremacie vsurped by the Pope doth lie The former that there should be one Bishop ouer all in earth 1 because Christ said There shall be one flocke and one pastor 2 and among the Iewes there was one iudge and hie Priest The later that the Pope is that one Bishop 3 because Peter was Bishop of Rome as some say 4 and the Pope succeedeth Peter Both examined and shewed to faile in the proofe of the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES Then wisedome must be content to be iustified of her childrē Howbeit God is able to chaunge your hart in such sort that as
or take infection at least from the fountaine being corrupted Now the fountaine as it were whence the rest haue drawne it is the sixth Councell And he saith that there the name of Honorius was thrust in amongst the names of other heretikes by malitious men of spite against the Pope Whereof hee bringeth two proofes One that Anastasius witnesseth it to haue bene so out of Theophanes An other that the Gréekes aduentured sometimes to corrupt bookes as the same Councell declareth by their practises Rainoldes The Councell declareth that there were some copies of a former Councell that had bene corrupted by heretikes among the Greekes But as euill dealing doth still leaue steppes behind it whereby it may be traced out their corruption was discouered both by circumstances of the thing and by the maner of writing and by conference with other copies Now in these places of the sixth Councell in which Honorius is touched you can shew no token of any such suspicion Nay the tokens all are cleere to the contrarie euen that which you alleage of the Greekes conuicted to haue corrupted bookes For if they had corrupted so much of the Councell in so many places it is very likely that they would haue also corrupted those places wherein they are noted and discredited for such corruptions Neither doth Anastasius report out of Theophanes that the Greekes did so Perhaps Father Robert did dreame out of Onuphrius that hee had said so But although Onuphrius say more in that point then truth did afford yet he saith not that As for Anastasius he is so farre from saying it that he gainesayeth it rather For in his storie of the Popes liues he setteth Honorius downe amongst the heretikes who were condemned by the sixth Councell The same is confirmed in an olde copie of the seuenth Councell which he translated out of Greeke and left it in the Popes librarie And at the eight Councell he was him selfe present and put it into Latin most diligently and faithfully there a Pope doth witnesse it To be short Torrensis addeth moreouer touching Anastasius that if he had suspected the Greekes to haue corrupted any of the places concerning this matter hee would haue giuen warning no doubt of it also as he hath done of other Wherfore though ill disposed men amongst the Greekes corrupted bookes sometimes yet the consent of copies chiefely of the Latin writen shortly after the time of the Councell laid vp at Rome the coherence of things the agreement of autours and circumstances of the storie doo make it very vnlikely that they dealt so with the sixth Councell in the matter of Honorius It were pitie that all euidences of men should be distrusted because there are some euidences falsified by euill men But Father Robert dealeth as Alexander the great who when he could not vndoo the knot of Gordius did cutte it a sunder with his sword Hart. Your knot of Honorius I wisse is not so hard but that he might vndoo it without this sword and he doth so For he sheweth that the epistles of Honorius to Sergius on which the sixth Councell adiudged him an heretike are both wisely writen and sound without errour Wherefore though we shoulde graunt that hee had sentence giuen against him by the Councell it foloweth not thereof that he was an heretike They might condemne him vniustly Rainoldes Take heede You were better let the knot alone then vndoo it so This medicine will do more harme then the disease In deede a great Cardinall on whom you relie much would play fast and loose with it in such sort vpon the spéech of Pope Adrian who saith that Honorius was cursed by the Bishops of the East after his death because he was accucused of heresie For hereupon he gathereth that Honorius was not an heretike while he liued nor cursed by the Pope or Bishops of the west But it foloweth straight in the spéech of Adrian which the Cardinall cut off that vnlesse the Pope had consented to it the Bishops of the east would not haue condemned him Moreouer the actes of the Councâ—ll shewe how Bishops of the west were also present and subscribed So that the sentence giuen against Honorius was giuen by the Councell and by the Pope him selfe not by the easterne Bishops only Wherfore if the epistles of Honorius were sound on which as vnsound he was condemned of heresie then a generall Councell confirmed by the Pope did erre in condemning him And if you graunt this as you must by consequent you betraye the strongest castell of Poperie to saue a captaines honour For men of iudgement will thinke that the doctrine of the reformed Churches may be sound for which as vnsound the Councell of Trent confirmed by the Pope hath condemned vs. They might condemne vs vniustly Hart. Not so For they examined and knew very perfitly the doctrine of the reformed Churches as you call them Rainoldes What And did the other condemne and curse the doctrine of Honorius a Pope and did they not examine and know it very perfitly Hart. If this do not stand with the Councels credit Father Robert maketh an other answere yet which may be liked better Namely that the epistles were perhaps counterfeited not writen by Honorius but by some heretike in his name And so might the Councell condemne the doctrine iustly but erre in the person Rainoldes Yet were this also a blemish of the Councell to condemne a Pope in steede of an heretike But they haue not deserued to be touched with it For the former epistle vpon the proofe whereof they did proceed to sentence they saw it conferred with the autheÌ„tical Latin copie found it to agrée Beside that the autor whom your selues alleage to cléere Honorius confessed it to be Honorius his owne and he confessed it then when the secretarie of Honorius who wrote it with his owne hand was aliue of good account and bare witnesse of it The later was approued to the Councel as the former though they stoode lesse about it as néeding lesse inquiry when he was now alreadie cast But it hath all presumptions for it so probable that not as much as Pighius could suspect it though he suspected the other Neither do I thinke that father Robert thought them in déede to be counterfeited But as a man that is in daunger of drowning doth snatch at euery bulrush to saue his life if it may be so he seing the Pope made subiect to heresie by the sixth generall Councell doth catch at euerie fansie whereby he hath some hope to helpe him The fansie of Pighius is that the Councell did not condemne Honorius the copies of it are corrupted Andradius checketh that and saith he was condemned but the Councell erred in condemning him as iudging him to erre who did not Torrensis varieth from them both and cometh in with a finer quirke to wéete that Pope Honorius did consent
with heretikes but as a priuate man and not as Pope This Canus and Alfonsus and Harding rest vpon and Genebrard after them who addeth yet withall for feare of the worst that the hereticall epistles of Honorius were counterfeited perhaps All these hath Father Robert and flitteth vp and downe to this to that amidst them at the last as one halfe gone and past sense he layeth hold on the weakest euen on the bulrush of Pighius Now if that of Pighius be so inconuenient that the force of truth doth driue you backe from it you must retire also from that as inconuenient whereof it doth folow That is the false principle wherein you ioyne with him and he thereon doth reason thus Christ prayed for the Pope in that he prayed for Peter his faith not to faile therefore the Pope cannot erre The Pope cannot erre therefore Pope Honorius was not an heretike Honorius was not an heretike therefore the sixth generall Councell did not condemne him For the conclusion hereof being false doth argue a falshood in that which doth inferre it That is the first proposition which you must amend and reason thus of the contrarie The sixth generall Councell did condemne Honorius therefore he was an heretike Pope Honorius was an heretike therefore the Pope may erre The Pope may erre Christ therefore prayed not for the Pope in that he prayed for Peter For had he prayed for the Pope then the faith of Pope Honorius had not failed But his faith failed Christ therefore prayed not for him Hart. You shall not teache mee how to reason The firste proposition of Pighius is good though it be admitted that his conclusion is fawtie For the learned Catholikes albeit they graunt that Honorius was an heretike and condemned iustly by the sixth generall Councell yet they hold that Christ prayed for the Pope and that therefore the Pope cannot erre but how Christ did not respect S. Peters person but his office when hée prayed for him that his faith should not faile for it was to this end that he being conuerted might strengthen and confirme his brethren Now because the Church for whose sake that priuilege was giuen vnto Peter should néede to be strengthned afterwarde no lesse then in his time therefore was it giuen to him not as to him alone for himselfe but as for his successours in the Church of Rome too So the Pope is priuileged from falling into errour by the prerogatiue of his office through the ordinance of Christ that would haue all Bishops and Pastors of the world to depend on him for their confirmation in faith and ecclesiasticall regiment Whereof it ensueth that he cannot erre in respect of his office although in respect of his person he may or to speake it after the phrase of the Schoolemen he may erre personally but not iudicially For errour is twofold personall and iudiciall Errour personall is the priuate errour of a man iudiciall the publike Into publike errours Popes can not fall they may into priuate I meane they may erre in person vnderstanding priuate doctrine or writinges but they cannot nor shall not euer iudicially conclude or giue definitiue sentence for falshood or heresie against the Catholike faith in their Consistories Courtes Councels decrées deliberations or consultations kept for decision and determination of such controuersies doutes or questions of faith as shal be proposed vnto them because Christes prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren And hereupon wée say the Pope may erre as a priuate man but not as Pope Which although you call it a quirke and fansie yet hath it pith weight For Pope doth note the office a priuate man the person And any man of sense may sée the difference betwene the person and the office as well in doctrine as life Liberius in persecution might yeeld Marcellinus for feare might commit idolatrie Honorius might fall to heresie and more then all this some Iudas might créepe into the office and yet all this without preiudice of the office and seate in which saith S. Augustine our Lord hath set the doctrine of truth Caiphas by priuilege of his office prophecied right of Christ but according to his owne faith and knowledge knew not Christ. The Euangelists and other penneâ—s of holy write for the execution of that function had the assistance of God and so farre could not possibly erre but that Luke Marke Salomon or the rest might not erre in other their priuate writings that we say not It was not the personall Rainoldes You néede not proue a thing confessed Common sense doth teach it A ruler of a company may be a good man and an euill magistrate King Alexander had two friends of whom he called one the kinges friend the other Alexanders friend The magistrate and the man the king and Alexander the office and the person we doo not deny a difference betwixt them Neither did I meane that euery such answere is a quirke and fansie Pope Iohn the two and twentieth when vpon a controuersie about the beggerie of Friers there was alleaged against him a saying of Pope Innocentius the fifth he saide that Innocentius had said it not as Pope but as Frier Peter of Tarantasia that was his name as a priuate man in one of his postils And this was well saide of Iohn For when Innocentius was Pope he had no leasure I trow to write postils it is likely that he wrote them before he was Pope when he was Frier Peter of Tarantasia But as that distinction of Pope and priuate man is vsed by your doctors in the case of Honorius so I saide and say againe it is a quirke a vaine quirke and fansie For that which Honorius wrote and was condemned for he wrote it as Pope not as a priuate man Hart. You meane that he wrote it when he was Pope that is true But he wrote it not as Pope Rainoldes I meane that he wrote it as Pope and I will proue it if you will giue me leaue But first to take vp that which you haue laide to disproue it you alleage that Caiphas was exempt from errour nay prophecied right of Christ by priuilege of his office Whereby you would imply the like touching the Pope The example agréeth verie fitly in part But doth it agrée thinke you in that part in which it must to serue your turne Hart. What els For it is writen in the holy gospell that when the Iewes consulted in a Councel what to doo with Christ whether to let let him alone or apprehend him Caiphas being the high Priest of that yeare saide to them you know nothing neither do you consider that it is expedient for vs that one man dye for the people and the whole nation perish not And this he saide not of himselfe but being the hie priest of that yeare he prophecied that Iesus should die for the nation Rainoldes But it
and doctrine Wherefore sith the Pharises were so well estéemed did swarme in Iurie it is not to be thought but that other tribes had some of that profession chiefely the tribe of Iuda Hart. If Iuda if Beniamin if other tribes had of them much more by all likelihood had the tribe of Leui. And them might our Sauiour specially meane not generally all in saying The Pharises doo sit vpon the chaire of Moses As if I should say that the Catholikes sit vpon the chaire of Christ you must not thinke I meane of Catholikes who be scholers but of Catholikes who be teachers of Catholike Priestes and Bishops Rainoldes Your answere hath reason For as S. Paule was a Pharise-scholer so was Gamaliel a Pharise-teacher And that there were Pharises of the Priestes Leuites the scripture sheweth saying that the Iewes sent Priestes and Leuites from Ierusalem to talke with Iohn Baptist and they who were sent were of the Pharises Wherefore that the Pharises did succeede Aaron the likelihood is great That the Scribes greater For they expounded taught the law of God whence they were also called now Doctors of the law now Lawiers by duetie and office Whereupon when Herode desired to know where Christ should be borne he gathered togither all the chiefe Priests and Scribes of the people to learne it of them It is most likely then that they succéeded Aaron too as did their predecessor Ezra the Scribe prompt in the law of Moses Yet your Doctor Genebrard saith that the Scribes were lightly of the tribe of Simeon and they with the Pharises are said to haue sate in the chaire of Moses as who had thrust them selues into it being emptie while the Priestes abusing the riches of the Church did forsake their duetie Hart. If Genebrard or any other of our Doctors haue a conceit of his owne what is that to me I folow the receiued sâ—ntence of the Church that the Scribes and Pharises came into the chaire of Moses by succession and not by intrusion But why do you agréeing with me in this point reproue it in my argument Rainoldes I reproued it not The point which I reproued was that you expounded the wordes of Christ so They sate in the chaire of Moses that is they did succeede Aaron Which exposition is erroneous and verie dangerous to the truth though the danger of it not so apparant in it selfe as in the consequent For it is the mother of a greater error Hart. And how would you haue it expounded I pray Rainoldes According to the word and meaning of Christ. The Scribes and the Pharises sit in the chaire of Moses that is they teach the law of Moses For as Moses him selfe receiued it of God to teach it the children of Israel and he did so in like sort the Priestes and Leuites after him were vsed to reade it in the assemblies of the people and to expound it To this end their synagogues were built in euery citie and euerie Sabbat day they met there as it is written Moses of olde time hath in euerie citie them that preach him being read in the Synagogues euerie Sabbat day Now they who did teach were wont to teach sitting which appeereth by our Sauiours example in the temple in the synagogues in other places Wherfore the Scribes and Pharises of whom there were some in euerie towne of Galile and Iurie and Ierusalem to discharge this duetie are said to haue sate in the seat of Moses or chaire as we terme it because they did teach the same which Moses did euen the law of God deliuered to Moses Hart. The matter is not great whether you expound it thus or as we doo Rainoldes Yes For it foloweth of your exposition that the Scribes and Pharises said well in all things which they said because they did succeede Aaron and so that succession which is the marke you shoote at hath certaintie of doctrine and faith knit vnto it Whereas the right lesson which you should gather thence is that the Scribes and Pharises said well in all thinges which they said out of the word of God and so that Gods word is simplie true and certaine but men ordeined to teach it must be heard no farther thâ—n they agree with it And this might D. Stapleton haue learned of the same Fathers whom he cited but that he rather readeth them to mainetaine a faction then to learne the truth For Austin doth interpret the chaire not of succession but of wholsome doctrine in the which they sit who speake the good things of God we are willed to heare God speaking by them when we are willed to do the things which they say For in sitting on Moses chaire they teach the law of God therefore by them God doth teach But if they would teach their owne things saith Austin heare them not obey them not So doth Chrysostome expound it Doo all things which the Scribes and Pharises say you must doo for they preach not their owne things but the things which God commaunded by Moses So doth Origen apply it to them who teach the faith aright with a speciall clause that Christians if they see a preacher liue ill and haue not to charge him with teaching ill doctrine they must frame their liues according to his words not deedes If they haue not to charge him with teaching ill doctrine as if he should say that who soeuer teach ill doctrine they sit not in the chaire of Moses Let them succéede Aaron neuer so directly yet if their doctrine be ill they sit not in the chaire of Moses Whereby you may sée the wretched state of that argument of which you made so great vaunt For the first proposition that the Scribes and Pharises were to be obeied in all thinges which they said because they sate in the chaire of Moses that is they did succeede Aaron is fouly corrupted in the point of succession The second that the Popes do sit in Christes chaire that is they are successors of the Apostles is tainted with the sameâ—canker that the first The conclusion therefore that men must obey the Popes in all thinges which they say and the consequent thereof that they cannot erre in any thing they say are children like their parents as sound as the propositions of which they are begotten The filthines of all the which if yet you sée not behold an other light to sée it by The Scribes amongst the Iewes were as the Canonists are with you the Pharises as the Schoolemen your Genebrard doth match them so Or if you like not his iudgement therein because Schoolemen and Canonists say not true in all thinges yet this you must graunt that Priestes are with you as Scribes and Pharises were with them For Chrysostome saith they be the verie wordes which you did passe ouer for breuities sake we must not say now In
two conditions one that they bee lawfully ordayned least they bee theeues who enter in not by the doore an other that being lawfully ordained they keepe and holde vnitie least they become woolues of pastours Rainoldes Then is not trueth of doctrine knit necessarily to succession it selfe no not though it bee lawfull and Apostolike succession Hart. I graunt but with vnitie Rainoldes Then is there much vanitie in Stapletons discourses and in his vaunt more vanitie that in spite of heretikes a sure vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith is knit to the verie succession of the Apostles to the succession it selfe And you by retayning this vnitie with Stapleton haue razed to the grounde that prerogatiue of the Pope whereon you builded his supremacie For if vnitie with succession haue vndouted certaintie of doctrine and faith all Pastors kéeping vnitie are as frée from errour in doctrine as the Pope is And so if not to erre in doctrine be a priuilege proofe of the supremacie all Pastours haue as high supremacie by this vnitie as the Pope hath The Pope I can tell you will not like this vnitie How much the more wisely me thought you dealt before when laying the foundation of the prerogatiue Papall you remoued this vnitie out of the chaire that His vnitie might sit in it For whereas S. Austin saith that God hath set the doctrine of truth in the chaire of vnitie meaning of all pastors and teachers of the Church which held the faith with â—oncord against the sect and schisme of Donatistes you applyed that saying to the chaire of the Pope displacing altogether both vnitie and other pastors Wherein though you forsooke the steps of D. Stapleton who proueth by that verie saying of S. Austin that all Priestes and Bishops whether they be pastours or hirelinges teach the truth yet you followed that which you had receiued of your Diuines at Rhemes For they do so apply it to the Popes prerogatiue Belike the great benefites flowing from the Pope to the Rhemish Seminarie did moue them to aduenture somewhat in his quarell more then D. Stapletons heart did â—erue him too Hart No more then in truth and conscience they might For though in déed that saying of S. Austin were meant of al Bishops that held the faith with concord which our Diuines of Rhemes I warrant you knew well enough yet they might apply it to the Pope as chiefely belonging vnto him the fountaine as it were of vnitie Rainoldes But they do apply it to the Pope as onely belonging vnto him For they alleage it to proue the prerogatiue and priuilege of the Pope that howsoeuer he doo in person yet he cannot erre in office Liberius say they in persecution might yeelde Marcellinus for feare might commit idolatrie Honorius might fall to heresie and more then all this some Iudas might creepe into the office and yet all this without preiudice of the office and seate in which saith S. Austin our Lord hath set the doctrine of truth If your Diuines of Rhemes knew that S. Austin wrote this of all Bishops that held the faith with concord their sinne is the greater For that which he made common to the vnitie of all they nippe it as proper to the singular seate of one And that which he spake in generall of wicked bishops who say good thinges and doo euill they abbridge it to Popes As who say that Popes onely could be wicked not other Bishops also Hart. If there were perhaps either a slippe ofmemory or other ouersight in citing of S. Austins wordes the matter is not great so long as the thing is true which they be cited for namely that the Pope may erre in person not in office as a priuate man not as Pope Rainoldes The matter is so great that the tracke thereof will find vs out that which by this distinction you séeke to steale away For you say that the Pope cannot erre in office though he may in person And why Because although his person be wicked yet in the seate hath God set the doctrine of truth as S. Austin saith But as S. Austin saith it all Bishops be they good or euill pastors or hirelinges doo sit in that seat So that none of them can erre in office neither by consequence of your reason Wherefore if the Pope cannot erre as Pope a Bishop cannot erre as Bishop But you will not say I thinke that a Bishop cannot erre as Bishop Therefore you must yéeld that the Pope may erre as Pope Hart. What if I said that a Bishop can not erre as Bishop I could maintaine it after a sort Rainoldes I doubt not of that But you should marre the Popes priuilege which if you doo Hart. Nay I say it not The fault of your argument is rather in the former part I meane in the ground thereofwhich you said as out of S. Austin that the office and seate wherein God hath set the doctrine of truth is common to al Bishops For though he may séeme to haue so thought in that epistle yet in the next before it he giueth that prerogatiue to the Sée of Rome Rainoldes Unlesse your Diuines of Rhemes doo abuse him For out of that epistle they teach vs this lesson God preserueth the truth of Christian religion in the Apostolike See of Rome which is in the new Law answerable to the chaire of Moses notwithstanding the Bishops of the same were neuer so wicked of life yea though some traitor as ill as Iudas were Bishop thereof it should not bee preiudiciall to the Church and innocent Christians for whom our Lord prouiding said Doo that which they say but doo not as they doo August Epist. 165. Now in the epistle alleaged and quoted for proofe of this lesson S. Austin saith the very same which in the other of wicked Bishops in generall though applying it in particular to the Bishops of Rome if any of them had béene wicked Your Diuines of Rhemes leaue out the generall wordes that simple men may thinke he meant a special priuilege of the Sée of Rome Whereto they note in the margent The See of Rome preserued in truth And vpon other like places The dignitie of the See of Rome And that which passeth all they say that in the newe law the See of Rome is answerable to the chaire of Moses the Apostolike See of Rome I was of opinion before I saw these gloses of theirs vpon the Testament that Stapleton had passed all the Popes retayners in abusing Scriptures and Fathers for the Papacy But now I perceiue and confesse that as Ierusalem did iustifie her sister Sodom so the Diuines of Rhemes haue iustified their brother Stapleton For Stapleton as he hath dealt with greater truth and honestie then they in many other pointes so hath he shewed in this of Scribes and Pharises sitting in Moses chaire both that the text is meant of wicked
not in whole Which is Baldwins meaning as it appéereth by the place not of Optatus but of Austin whereto he applieth it Rainoldes But if Baldwin meant so Baldwin should haue remembred that a testament so made is not testamentum nuncupatiuum for that is vnwriten as the very rudiments of the law might teach him but imperfectum rather though writen yet vnperfit And I trust you will not say that the testament of Christ is vnperfit Sure Optatus would not Hart. Nor I sir though you would faine imply as though I said so For if Christ would haue his will in part writen in part deliuered by word of mouth ioyne them both togither they make a perfit testament Rainoldes Then the writen testament of Christ is vnperfit It will be gay and perfit with your traditions patched to it But Optatus thought that his writen testament is perfit of it selfe Which shaketh all the frame of Popery in péeces And this is that Optatus of whom S. Austin speaketh as of a worthy Catholike Bishop equall to Ambrose and Cyprian of whom Fulgentius speaketh as of a holy faithfull interpretor of Paule like to Austin and Ambrose of whom your great Champion doth vaunt so gloriously that he nor he onely but the rest of the Fathers are of your religion as surely and fully as the Pope himselfe Pope Gregorie the thirteenth whereas in very truth not one of them is so For Gregorie the thirteenth is of your religioÌ„ in the Popes supremacie the chiefest point of Poperie as his rules of Chancery for reâ—eru ations and prouisions his accursing of all that appeale from Popes to Councels his bulles against decrees of Councels both prouinciall and generall doo shew From which abomination how farre the Fathers were it shall appéere when you alleage them But Optatus is so plaine against your religion in the point of scriptures and their sufficiencie to decide all controuersies that your chalenger if he read him and not beleeued common-place-bookes of Canisius and other broakers might haue blushed to boast of him For those things which he citeth out of Optatus do not as much as rase the skinne of our religion though they séeme to weake eye sightes But this of scriptures onely doth breake the necke of yours and it is so cléerely the iudgement of Optatus that your owne Baldwin in his Annotations is faine to say of him he vsed that comparison of a testament not so warily Hart. Not so warily as Austin doth For Austin vseth it when he will proue out of the scriptures that the Church is catholike which was one of the pointes of their controuersie with the Donatists Rainoldes But in handling that point he maketh it a generall rule that whether it be of Christ or of his church or of any thing else whatsoeuer pertaining to our faith and life nothing must be preached beside the scriptures that is the testament Hart. But in an other point of their controuersie touching baptisme S. Austin doth alleage not so much the scripture as the tradition of the Apostles Rainoldes Not so much the scripture He doth the scripture then though he alleageth also the custome of the Church deliuered by the Apostles But what is that against the testament Hart. Nay beside the testament which is the word writen he doth commend vnwriten traditions in other places Which proueth that he thought not the testament sufficient to decide all controuersies Rainoldes Now S. Austin findeth fauour at your hands who make him say and vnsay the same But where vnsaith hée that of the sufficiencie of scripture Hart. You may sée in the Augustinian confession of Torrensis in the chapter of Traditions Rainoldes But I would sée it in S. Austin Torrensis is a Iesuit whom we haue taken oft in lyes I cannot trust him Hart. Why He alleageth S. Austins owne wordes As in the first place which bringeth in S. Cyprian too Quod autem nos admonet Cyprianus vt ad fontem recâ—rramus id est Apostolicam traditionem inde canalem in nostra tempora dirigamus optimum est sine dubitatione faciendum That is to say whereas Cyprian warneth vs that we should go to the coondit head which is the tradition of the Apostles and thence direct the pipe to our owne times that is best and to be done out of all dout These are S. Austins owne wordes Rainoldes S. Austins owne wordes in déede But what doth folow in S. Austin Traditum est ergo nobis sicut ipse commemorat ab Apostolis quòd sit vnus deus Christus vnus vna spes fides vna vna ecclesia baptisma vnum That is to say It is deliuered therefore to vs by the Apostles as Cyprian himselfe rehearseth that there is one God and one Christ and one hope and one faith and one church and one baptisme These are S. Austins owne wordes and grounded on S. Cyprian too So that he and Cyprian meant by tradition that which is deliuered and that to be deliuered which is writen in the scriptures For this selfe same thing whereof they speake is writen in the epistle of Paule to the Ephesians Wherefore their traditioÌ„ is tradition writen that is to say scripture and not vnwriten stuffe as your Iesuit would haue it Yea Cyprian is so plaine for controuersies to be decided by this tradition onely that in the same epistle whence Austin citeth this to the words of Stephanus Traditum est it is deliuered vnde est ista traditio faith he whence is this tradition Doth it come from the authoritie of the Lord and the gospell or from the commaundements and epistles of the Apostles For that we must doo those things which are writen God doth witnesse saying to Ioshua Let not this booke of the law depart out of thy mouth but meditate in it day and night that thou maiest obserue to performe all thinges which are writen therein And likewise the Lorde sending his Apostles willed them that the nations should bee baptized and taught to obserue all things which he had commaunded Wherefore if this thing of the which Stephanus saith it is deliuered be commaunded in the gospell or contained in the epistles or actes of the Apostles let this diuine and holy tradition be obserued Sée you not how Cyprian thought that all which Christ commanded to be taught is writen How hee meant this writen doctrine by tradition How his words of this tradition are approued by Austin What conscience had your Iesuit to alleage that for traditions beside scriptures which they so plainely meant of the scriptures them selues Hart. I do not sée this neither in S. Austin nor in S. Cyprian Rainoldes I am the soryer that your sight serueth you no better For the thing is so cléere that your owne Pamelius declareth that Cyprian meant the holy scriptures there by tradition Hart. Yet Pamelius addeth that if
S. Cyprian had bene instructed better that the scriptures cited by him to proue his errour are not of force thereto S. Austin douteth not but he would haue allowed the contrary tradition Rainoldes That may well be For he should haue found it proued by the scriptures as S. Austin sheweth But in the meane season you may sée by Pamelius that Torrensis abused Cyprian and Austin in wresting that to his traditions Hart. Not so But his next place of Austin is more pregnant Let the rule of the Church and the holy tradition and iudgement of the Fathers continue sure and sound for euer Rainoldes As pregnant as the former For it foloweth straight Now the faith of our Fathers is this we beleeue in God the father almightie maker of all things visible and inuisible and so he goeth forward with the pointes of Christian faith Wherby it is apparant that he meant by the tradition of the Fathers their faith But their faith is writen the substance of it in the scriptures Therefore your Iesuit faileth in this tradition too Moreouer S. Austin if he wrote that sermon whereof your Louan censours dout but he who wrote that sermon entreateth of the Trinitie But touching the Trinitie nothing must be said beside the rule of faith which is set downe in scriptures as I haue shewed by S. Austin Wherefore if S. Austin had meant of vnwriten tradition in that point S. Austin would retract it But indeede the Iesuit hath ouerséene S. Austins workes very cunningly Who bearing men in hand that he hath gathered the summe of Austins doctrine out of all his workes yet concealeth that in the chapter of scriptures which Austin saith of their sufficiencie faceth that out in the chapter of traditions which should haue bene defaced by that which Austin saith of scriptures Howbeit were it true that the scriptures without traditions are vnperfit and vnsufficient to proue the will of God you are no néerer your purpose that the proofe of it by Fathers is sufficient For a testament that is made by worde of mouth without writing must be proued by solemne witnesses The solemne witnesses of Christes testament are the Prophets and Apostles So that vnlesse you proue by Prophets and Apostles that part of the testament of Christ is vnwriten that hée gaue the Pope supremacie in that part your proofe by the Fathers will neuer stand in law Notwithstanding though it bée against both law and reason that the Pope should take the whole inheritaunce of Christes Church and put all Bishops to their legacies vnlesse he proue his right by the testament of Christ yet if you can proue it as I said by the Fathers I am content to yéelde vnto it Hart. If I can proue it by the Fathers I will bring them to witnesse for it But when will you count it proued Perhaps when I haue proued it you will say I haue not Rainoldes And perhaps when you haue not you will say you haue Hart. Who shall be iudge then And how shall it bee tryed Rainoldes Optatus in the question of the Catholikes with the Donatists whether one should be twise baptized you saith he say it is lawfull we say it is not lawfull Betweene your it is lawfull our it is not lawfull the peoples souls do dout and wauer Let none beleeue you nor vs we are all contentious men Iudges must be sought for If Christians they can not be giuen of both sides for truth is hindred by affections A iudge without must be sought for If a Paynim he can not know the Christian mysteries If a Iewe he is an enimie of Christian baptisme No iudgement therefore of this matter can be found in earth a iudge from heauen must be sought for But why knocke we at heauen when here we haue the testament of Christ in the gospell So by the opinion and reason of Optatus you and we can haue no fit iudge in earth God must iudge vs by his word But if the Pope will be tryed by God the countrie let him appéere at the assise I will endite him of feâ—â—â—ie for robbing Christians of their goods and I will vse no witnesses to proue it but the Fathers Hart. Nay we may rather endite you for entring forcibly on his land I meane on the supremacie and wrongfully deteining it aboue these twentie yeares from him Though to say the truth you are past enditement you are condemned long ago Rainoldes By the Pope in his Consistorie An easie matter where himselfe is plaintife witnesse and iudge Hart. Him selfe is not alone iudge there for he doth all thinges by the common verdict Rainoldes Of an enquest of Cardinals with whom hee doth diuide his spoyles And shall they be iudges whether you doo proue the Popes supremacie or no Hart. They are worthie Prelates what count soeuer you make of them But who shall iudge if not they Rainoldes When an issue is ioyned to be tryed by the countrie the iury that shal try it ought to be of such as be next neighbors most sufficient and ieast suspicious This is the law of England How doo you like your countrie law hath it not reason Hart. It hath But this issue of ours must be tryed by the Church not by the countrie Rainoldes I graunt But the equitie of our countrie law doth hold in the Church too Hart. Wil you be tryed then by the Catholike Bishops that are the Popes neighbours of France Spaine and Italie such as were at the Councell of Trent Rainoldes Fye they are the most vnfit of all men to try any issue betwéene the Pope and vs. Hart. Why so Rainoldes For many causes They are not frée holders They are the Popes tenants his sworne vasals our sworne enimies bound by oth to maintaine the Papacy Are these most sufficient and least suspicious persons Hart. They are most sufficient But if your suspicions shall serue to chalenge them you may chalenge any Rainoldes If you deny the causes which I alleaged I proue them If I proue them all there is no bench of Iustices in England but will thinke my chalenge to be very lawfull Hart. Then name your selfe the men whom you will admit to be of the iury Rainoldes Nay I will name none But I am indifferent to all who are indifferent who haue skill to iudge of the euidence that is brought and conscience to giue verdict according to the truth Hart. According to the truth of the euidence you meane For so a iury ought And so let all indifferent men be of the iury For the wordes of the witnesses which I will bring shall be so full so plaine in sense so strong in proofe that they must néedes condemne you vnlesse they will giue verdict against the euidence and their consciences Rainoldes The crow doth thinke her own birdes fairest But I must desire the iury to consider that the witnesses whose wordes you will bring
which they did gather of those wordes then might we know the times whereof our Sauiour saith that it is not for man to knowe them And vpon this reason S. Austin doth reproue that fansie of sixe thousand yeares as rash and presumptuous Hart. So doo we also For Lindan and Prateolus doo note it in Luthers and Melanchthons Chronicles as a Iewish heresie Rainoldes Good reason when Luther and Melanchthon write it But when Irenaeus Hilarie Lactantius and other Fathers write it what doo they note it then Hart. Suppose it were an ouersight But what néedes all this As who say you douted that we would maintaine the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of error by the scriptures Rainoldes I haue cause to dout it For though there be no man lightly so profane as to professe that he will doo so yet such is the blindnes o◠mens deuotion to Saintes there haue béene heretofore who haue so done and are still There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin that when the time of her death approched the Apostles then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospell were taken vp in cloudes and brought miraculously to Ierusalem to be present at her funerall This tale in olde time was writen in a booke which bare the name of Melito an auncient learned Bishop of Asia though he wrote it not be like But whosoeuer wrote it he wrote a lye saith Bede because his words gaine say the wordes of S. Luke in the actes of the Apostles Which Bede hauing shewed in sundrie pointes of his tale he saith that he reherseth these thinges because he knoweth that some beleeue that booke with vnaduised rashnesse against S. Lukes autoritie So you sée there haue béene who haue beléeued a Father yea perhaps a rascall not a Father against the scriptures And that there are such still I sée by our countrymen your diuines of Rhemes who vouch the same fable vpon greater credit of Fathers then the other but with no greater truth Hart. Doo you call the assumption of our Ladie a fable What impietie is this against the mother of our Lord that excellent vessell of grace whom all generations ought to call blessed But you can not abide her prayses and honours Nay you haue abolished not onely her greatest feast of her assumption but of her conception and natiuitie too So as it may bee thought the diuell beareth a special malice to this woman whose seede brake his head Rainoldes It may be thought that the diuell when he did striue with Michael about the bodie of Moses whom the Lord buried the Iewes knew not where did striue that his bodie might bee reuealed to the Iewes to the entent that they might worship it and commit idolatrie But it is out of doubt that when he moued the people of Lystra to sacrifice vnto Paul and Barnabas and to call them Gods he meant to deface the glory of God by the too much honouring and praysing of his Saintes We can abide the prayses of Barnabas and Paule but not to haue them called Gods We can abide their honours but not to sacrifice vnto them Wee know that the diuell doth beare a speciall malice both to the woman and to the womans seed But whether he doth wreake it more vpon the séede by your sacrificing of prayses and prayers to the woman or by our not sacrificing let them define who know his policies The Christians of old time were charged with impietie because they had no Gods but one This is our impietie For whatsoeuer honour and prayse may bee giuen to the Saintes of God as holy creatures but creatures we doo gladly giue it We thinke of them all and namely of the blessed virgin reuerently honourably We desire our selues and wish others to folow her godly faith and vertuous life We estéeme her as an excellent vessell of grace We call her as the scripture teacheth vs blessed yea the most blessed of all women But you would haue her to be named and thought not onely blessed her selfe but also a giuer of blessednesse to others not a vessell but a fountaine or as you entitle her a mother of grace and mercy And in your solemne prayers you doo her that honour which is onely due to our creator and redeemer For you call on her to defend you from the enimie and receiue you in the houre of death Thus although in semblance of wordes you deny it yet in déede you make her equall to Christ as him our Lord so her our Ladie as him our God so her our Goddesse as him our King so her our Queene as him our mediator so her our mediatresse as him in all thinges tempted like vs sinne excepted so her deuoide of all sinne as him the onely name whereby we must be saued so her our life our ioy our hope a very mother of orphans an aide to the oppressed a medicine to the diseased and to be short all to all Which impious worship of a Sainte because you haue aduanced by keping holy dayes vnto her the feastes of her conception natiuitie assumption therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches iustly For the vse of holy dayes is not to worship Saintes but to worship God the sanctifier of Saintes As the Lorde ordeined them that men might meete together to serue him and heare his worde Hart. Why keepe you then still the feastes of the Apostles Euangelists other Saintes and not abolish them also As some of your reformed or rather your deformed Churches haue doon Rainoldes Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight who requireth men to worship him in spirite truth though you besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues doo scorne at their simplenesse as the proude spirite of Mical did at Dauid when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland Flanders France and others allow not holy dayes of Saintes because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God Of the same iudgement is the Church of England for the vse of holy dayes Wherefore although by kéeping the names of Saintes dayes we may séeme to kéepe them to the honour of Saintes yet in déede we kéepe them holy to God onely to prayse his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on vs by the ministerie of his Saintes And so haue the Churches of Flanders and Fraunce expounded well our meaning in that they haue noted that some Churches submit them selues to their weakenesse with whome they are conuersant so farre foorth that they keepe the holy dayes of Saintes though in an other sorte nay in a cleane contrarie then the Papists doo Hart. But if you kéepe the feastes of other Saintes in that sorte why not
name that is solitarie and not collegiate moonkes But the beléeuers at Ierusalem were at Ierusalem in a citie and liued in fellowship together Doo you not sée that the Apostles and Apostolike men were not such as afterwarde the moonkes whom Ierom meaneth and therefore Ierom was deceiued Hart. I will not beléeue on your worde that so worthie a Father was deceiued Rainoldes If you will not on my worde I will bring his owne worde to make you beléeue it For writing to Paulinus touching the training vp of moonkes he saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are not paterns for them to folow but S. Antonie and others who dwelt in fieldes and deserts Hart. He saith that the Apostles and Apostolike men are set for an example to Priestes and Bishops not to moonkes True in some respectes And yet me thinkes too But what if the Fathers perhaps might be deceiued so through ouersight Rainoldes If they might be deceiued so through ouersight they might be deceiued through affection also For they were men and subiect to it As Cyprian through too much hatred of heretikes condemned the baptisme of heretikes as vnlawfull wherein a Councell erred with him As Origen through too much compassion of the wicked thought that the diuels them â—elues should be saued at length As Tertullian through spite of the Roman clergie reuolted to the Montanists and called the Catholikes carnall men because they were not so precise as the Montanists in pointes of mariage and fasting Hart. We condemne these errours in them as well as you and doo therein except against them Rainoldes You doo except also I trow I am sure your Doctors doo against Damascene for his tale of Gregorie the Pope and Traian the Emperour that Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voyce from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see that thou pray no more to me for the wicked A verie great affection to prayers for the dead that moued Damascene to write this For it is against the doctrine of the Schoolemen that prayers may helpe out the soules that are in hell In Purgatorie they say they may Hart. S. Thomas doth confirme the same Yet he beléeueth that of Damascene But he saith that Gregorie did it by speciall priuilege which doth not breake the common law Rainoldes But your Canus saith that Thomas was a young man then beside that he was greatly affected to Damascen And Damascen might easily perswade a well willer he doth affirme so lustily that all the east and west is witnesse that the thing is true Which report of his yet Canus doth maruell at sith it is vnknowne in all the Latin story But Canus as a man of better minde and sounder iudgement then your Popish Doctors are the most of them did wisely sée noteth fréely that not onely later and lesse discreete autours as he who made the golden legend but also graue ancient learned holy Fathers haue ouershot them selues in writing miracles of Saintes partly while they fetched the truth where it is seldom from common rumors and reportes partly while they sought to please the peoples humor and thought it lawfull for historians to write thinges as true which coÌ„monly are counted true Of this sorte he nameth Gregorie and Bede the one for his Dialogues the other for his English story He might haue named Damascene with them Unlesse hee meant him rather perhaps to be of that sorte which did not onely take by heare-say of others but coyned lyes themselues too wrote those thinges of Saintes which their fansie liked though neither true nor likely As that S. Frauncis was wont to take lise that were shaken off and put them on himselfe it was a lowsie tricke and S. Frauncis did it not but the writer thought it an argument of his holinesse Likewise that when the diuel troubled S. Dominike S. Dominike constrained him to hold a candle in his handes till the candle being spent did put him to great grief in burning his fingers Such examples there are innumerable but these two may giue a taste of their affection who haue defiled the stories of Saintes with filthie fables Yet out of such stories many thinges are read in your Church-seruice And Canus although he confesse it as euident notwithstanding which is straunge he thinketh them vnwise Bishops who seeke to reforme it For while they cure the nailesore saith he they hurt the head that is in steede of counterfeites they bring in graue stories but they chaunge the seruice of the Church so farre that scarce any shew of the olde religion is remaining in it A thing well considered of them by whom your Roman Portesse was reformed For though they haue remoued some of those stories which Canus saith are vncertaine forged friuolous and false yet haue they doon it sparingly If they should haue left out all those legend-toyes their Portesse had beene like our booke of common prayer which heretikes would haue laught at and there had remained no shew in a maner of the olde religion saue that their seruice is in Latin Hart. These thinges are impertinent but that it pleaseth you to play the Hicke-scorner with the holy Portesse For what need you mention the writer of S. Francis life or S. Dominikes or the golden legend that old moth-eaten booke as D. Harding calleth it of the liues of Saintes I mind not to presse you with thinges of later writers but of olde and ancient whom Canus iudgeth better of then of the younger For he saith of Vincentius Beluacensis and Antoninus that they cared not so much to write thinges true and certaine as to let go nothing that they found writeÌ„ in any papers whatsoeuer But of Bede and Gregorie he iudgeth more softly and rather excuseth them then reproueth them Though iudge he how he listed he was but one Doctour and other learned men perhaps mislike his iudgement both for younger and elder writers Rainoldes They who deale with taming of lyons I haue read are wont when they finde them somewhat out of order to beate dogges before them that in a dogge the lyon may see his owne desert Euen so when I rebuke the writer of S. Francis life or of S. Dominikes or of the moth-eaten booke as you call it though he who wrote it was an Archbishop in his time a man of name and his booke a legend read publikely in Churches and called golden for the excellencie but when I rebuke that moth-eaten writer or Antoninus if you will and Vincentius Beluacensis who are as good as he welnigh you must not thinke I doo it for the dogges sake but for the lions rather I meane the ancient writers who deserue rebuke too For as not Rupertus
your Priestes of the tribe of Leui who offer vp this sacrifice Hart. No syr nor of the Iewes but they are Christian Priestes Rainoldes But they who must offer the sacrifice that is spoken of in the prophet Malachie are of the tribe of Leui. For afterward entreating of the same oblation or offering as we cal it that shall be offered vnto God in the time of the gospell he saith that the Lord shall fine the sonnes of Leui and purifie them as gold and siluer that they may offer an offering vnto God in righteousnes Wherefore if the offering that Malachie doth speake of be the sacrifice of the Masse that is a sacrifice properly then the proper Priestes by whom it is offered are the Iewish Priests after the order of Aaron euen the sonnes of Leui. But if the sonnes of Leui betoken by a figure the spirituall Leuits that is all the faithfull whom Christ in the new testament hath made a royall Priesthood euen Kings and Priestes to God his father as your Montanus well expoundeth it then must the offering by a figure signifie the spirituall sacrifice which Christians of all sortes are bound to offer vnto God And in truth as Christ said of Iohn Baptist If you will receiue it this is Elias which was to come meaning that the Prophet did signifie Iohn Baptist by the name of Elias so I may say to you touching the spirituall sacrifices of Christians If you will receiue it this is the cleane offering which should in euery place be offered to the Lord. For the Prophets when they spake of the gospell of Christ and the religious worship of God in spirit and truth which Gentiles conuerted by the preaching of the gospell should serue him in through all the world are wont to describe it by figuratiue spéeches drawen from the externall and carnall worship of God in the ceremonies of the law So they say that there shall be an altar of the Lord in the middes of the land of Egypt that God will accept the burnt offrings and sacrifices of straungers vpon his altar that all the sheeepe of Kedar shall be offefered on it and the rammes of Nebaioth that the Gentiles shall go vp to keepe the feast of tabernacles from yeare to yeare vnto Ierusalem and euery pot in Ierusalem and Iuda shall be holy to the Lord of hostes and all they who sacrifice shall come take of them and seeth therein finally that the offering of Iuda and Ierusalem shal be sweete vnto the Lord as in the dayes of old and in the yeares afore Wherefore as the Prophets doo mention an offering which the Christian Church shall offer vnto God in the time of the gospell so doo they mention burnt offeringes and sacrifices the sheepe of Kedar the rammes of Nebaioth to bee offered on an altar they mention Ierusalem to bee gone vnto the feast of tabernacles to be kept the flesh of beastes sacrificed to be sodde in pottes the Leuites to be the Ministers who shall make the offering in righteousnesse to God But neither doth the Priesthood of the Leuites continue neither is Ierusalem the place to worship God neither are the Iewish feastes the times to doo it nor will he be serued with sacrifice and offering if they be taken properly The Prophets therefore meant by an allegorie as we terme it to shew that all Christians should as Priests and Leuites offer vp them selues and theirs as sacrifices at all times as solemne feastes in all places as in Ierusalem And so the cleane offering whereof the Prophet Malachie saith it shal be offered in euery place vnto the Lord doth signifie not a sacrifice to be made vpon an altar as your Councell would haue it but the spirituall sacrifice which S. Paul exhorteth the faithfull to offer when he willeth men to pray in euery place lifting vp pure handes without wrath douting Hart. The Prophetes speake much in déed of thinges to come not properly and simply but figuratiuely by obscure spéeches and allegories and parables that must be vnderstood otherwise then they are writen as Tertullian noteth But the name of altar is vsed properly for a materiall altar by the Apostle to the Hebrewes saying we haue an altar whereof they haue not power to eate which serue the tabernacle For he putteth them in minde by these wordes that in folowing too much their olde Iewish rites they depriued themselues of an other maner a more excellent sacrifice and meate meaning of the holy altar and Christes owne blessed body offered and eaten there Of which they that continue in the figures of the old law could not be partakers This altar saith Isychius is the altar of Christes body which the Iewes for their incredulitie must not behold And the Gréeke worde as also the Hebrew answering thereunto in the old testament signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on and not a metaphoricall and spirituall altar Wherefore séeing that we haue a very altar in the proper sense and the name of altar doth import a sacrifice that is offered on it it foloweth that the body of Christ vpon the altar is a very sacrifice in the proper sense And that out of doubt is the cleane offering which the Prophet speaketh of according as the Councell of Trent hath defined Rainoldes And are you out of doubt that by the wordes we haue an altar the Apostle meaneth a materiall altar such as your altars made of stone Hart. What els a very altar Rainoldes And they who haue not power to eate of this altar are the stubberne Iewes who keepe the ceremonies of the law Hart. The Iewes and such prophane men Rainoldes Then your Masse-priestes may and doo vse to â—ate of this altar Hart. They doo And what then Rainoldes Their téeth be good and strong if they eate of an altar that is made of stone Are ye sure that they eate of it Hart. Eate of an altar As though ye knew not that by the altar the sacrifice which is offered vpon the altar is signifyed They eate of Christes body which thereby is meant Rainoldes Is it so Then the worde altar is not taken for a very altar in the proper sense but figuratiuely for the body of Christ the which was sacrificed and offered Neither is it taken for the body of Christ in that respect that Christ is offered in the sacrament in the which sort he is mystically offered as often as the faithfull doo eate of that bread and drinke of that cuppe wherein the breaking of his body and shedding of his blood is represented to them but in that respect that Christ was offered on the crosse in the which sort he was truly offered not often but once to take away the sinnes of many and to sanctifie them for euer who beleeue in him Hart. Nay the auncient Father Isychius expoundeth it
true that the Greeke word as also the Hebrewe answering thereunto in the olde testament signifieth properly an altar to sacrifice on and not a metaphoricall or spirituall altar And if it were as much for the aduantage of their cause to proue that Masse is said in heauen as that in earth and that Christ is properly bread without a figure as that bread is properly Christ in the sacrament the text of the scripture where Christ is called bread yea the true bread would proue the one cléerely as they could fit it with this note and the word altar would put the other out of controuersie chiefely if that were noted withall that an Angell stood before the altar hauing a golden censer though others there also affirme the altar to be Christ. But it fareth with your Rhemists as it is wont with false prophets one buildeth vp a muddy wall and others daube it ouer with a rotten plaister and when a storme cometh the wall falleth and plaister with it For though as they lay it on it séemeth hansom that wordes signifie properly the naturall things which they are vsed to signifie and not metaphoricâ—ll or spirituall things yet if it be opened that hereby is meant that wordes may not be vsed by metaphores or other figures to signifie those thinges which properly they doo not signifie the boyes in grammer schooles who know what a metaphore is will laugh at it Wherefore this plaister will not helpe the weakenes of your muddy wall I meane of the conclusion which you would proue by it and doo inferre vpon it that we haue an altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christes body vpon In the daubing vp whereof yet your plaisterers do shew a péece of greater art partly by drawing vs into hatred who haue not Popish altars but communion tables partly by winding the names of Fathers in as if they made for you against vs. Both with skill and cunning but more of sophistrie then diuinitie For that which the scripture doth call the Lords table because it is ordeined for the Lords supper in the administration of the blessed sacrament of his bodie and blood the Fathers also call it a table in respect of the heauenly banket that is serued vpon it And this in proper sense Marry by a figure of speech by which the names of thinges that are like one an other in some qualitie are giuen one vnto an other as Christ is called Dauid Iohn Baptist Elias the citie of Rome Babylon the Church of God Ierusalem the Fathers for resemblance of the Ministers and sacraments in the new testament to them in the olde are wont to giue the name as of Priestes and Leuites to Pastours and Deacons so of a sacrifice to the Lords supper and of an altar to the Lords table For these thinges are lynked by nature in relation and mutuall dependence as I may say one of an other the altar the sacrifice and the sacrificers who serue the altar that is Priestes and Leuites Wherefore if the Fathers meant a very altar in the proper sense to sacrifice Christes bodie vpon then must they meane also the Leuitical Priesthood to serue in sacrificing of it But the Leuiticall Priesthood is gone and they knew it nether did they call the ministerie of the Gospell so but by a figure Your Rhemists therefore doo abuse them in prouing as by them that the communion table is called an altar properly But vs of the other side they doo abuse more by setting an altar against a common table in such sort of spéech as if we whose Churches haue not a very altar to kill our Sauiour Christ and sacrifice him vpon it had but a common table and profane communion boord to eate meere bread vpon A feate to make vs odious in the eyes of men whom you would perswade that we discerne not the body of the Lord. Which your priuie sclander doth vs open iniurie For we haue not a common but a holy table as both we call it and estéeme it not a profane communion boorde but a sanctified to eate not meere bread but the Lords supper wherein we receiue the bread of thankes-giuing and the cuppe of blessing as the Apostles doctrine and practise of the Fathers teach vs. Your selues are guiltie rather of féeding men with meere bread who do take away the cuppe of the new testament in the blood of Christ from the Christian people and in stéede of the blessed bread of the sacrament do giue in your Masses meere bread in déede by your owne confession the common bread that goeth vnder the name of holy-bread I would to God M. Hart you would thinke with your selfe euen in your bed as the Prophet speaketh and consider more déepely both the wicked abuses wherewith the holy sacrament of the Lords supper is profaned in your vnholy sacrifice of the Masse and the treacherous meanes whereby your Maister and Felowes of the College of Rhemes doo séeke to maintaine it Who being not able to proue it by the scriptures either of the altar or of the cleane offering the principall places whereon their shew standeth they go about to bréede a good opinion of it in the heartes of the simple partly by discrediting vs with false reproches partly by abusing the credit of the Fathers Which two kinds of proofe do beare the greatest sway through all your Rhemish Annotations Hart. We do not abuse the credit of the Fathers to perswade an errour but as we endeuour to folow them in truth so alleage we them to proue the truth by them And howsoeuer you auoide the place of S. Paule where it is said we haue an altar the prophecie of Malachie that in euery place there is sacrificed and offered a cleane offering to God must néedes belong to the verie and outward sacrifice of the Masse not to spirituall sacrifices Which because that reuerend man D Allen whose treatise of the Masse is such a moate in your eye doth proue by sixe reasons the pith whereof he greatly praiseth I will bring them forth in his owne wordes that you may yéelde the rather to them First therefore the word to sacrifice and to offer being vsed by it selfe without a terme abridging it is taken in the scripture alwaies properly for the act of outward sacrifice But when it is said the sacrifice of praise the sacrifice of crying the sacrifice of contrition and the like it is perceiued easily by the wordes annexed that they be taken improperly Secondly this sacrifice of the which the Prophet speaketh is one but spirituall sacrifices there are so many as there are good workes of Christian religion Thirdly this is the proper and peculiar sacrifice of the new law and the Gentiles not of the Iewes But spirituall sacrifices of praiers and workes are common to the Iewes with vs. Fourthly
standeth not so much in making Church-officers as in iudging Church-causes And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last For Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians doth prayse them for referring the matter vnto him and I thinke saith he that as oft as a matter of faith is called in question all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vnto Peter that is the autour of their name and honour as now your charitie hath doon Rainoldes Thâ—se wordes of Innocentius may proue M. Hart that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter not a soueraintie of power a preeminence of knowledge to resolue the Church-questions not a soueraintie of power to decide the Church-causes For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith that is by the scriptures and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power but in knowledge Which you may learne by Gratian in the Canon law saying that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures because they passe them in knowledge the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes because they passe them in power Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vpon the truth For though the Church-causes as Gratian speaketh of them do concerne persons the innocent to be acquitted or offenders to be condemned yet questions of faith which you call Church-questions are Church-causes too in a generall sense As one of the third sort of Popes saith that greater causes of the Church chiefly such as touch the articles of faith are to be referred to the See of Peter And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first For in his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion he saith that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man but of God that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome Rainoldes It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie The causes touching persons which Zosimus Boniface and Caelestine did deale for when they would haue it lawfull for Bishops Elders to appeale to Rome are those which Popes must liue by And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis whom Innocentius wrote too did know and shew this difference when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith but forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vnto him by appeales Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes and the Church-questions is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vpon the truth but a point of truth to cléere the mist of your sophistry For your Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie Whereas he claimeth iudgement to resolue the douts or that is lesse autoritie to approue the doctrine not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church Hart. Nay his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded Rainoldes But if you doo racke that word whatsoeuer so farre beyond his drift you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes who claime the greater causes of the Church onely Wherefore as when S. Paul saith all thinges are lawfull for me he meaneth not all thingâ—s absolutely and simply but all indifferent thinges according to the point which he treateth of so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching Church-causes but to matters of faith called into question which the Popes being learned then and Catholike the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit fréer passage against heretikes Hart. What say you then to Leo the great or rather to S. Gregorie who had the Church-causes euen such as touched persons referred to their Sée and willed them to be so as their epistles shew Rainoldes In déede Leo and Gregorie are somewhat large that way Though Leo as the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time then afterwarde in Gregories so had fewer of them Gregorie had more yet he had not all Hart. Not all but all the greater And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime Rainoldes But they claime all the greater through the whole world which Gregorie neither had nor claimed Hart. No Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Afrike Corsica Sardinia Sicilia Dalmatia and many countries mo Rainoldes Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes nor through the whole world And this very shew of the names of couÌ„tries by which your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued is a demonstration in truth to disproue it For rehersing only those which you haue named with England Ireland Corcyra and Graecia and saying that Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops and Churches though neither prouing so much but admit he proued it yet in bringing only the names and proofes of these he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia Mysia Scythia Galatia Bithynia Cappadocia Armenia Pamphylia Lydia Pisidia Lycaonia Phrygia Lycia Caria Hellespontus Aegypt Iury Phoenicia Syria Cilicia Cyprus Arabia Mesopotania Isauria with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Hart. Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them For whereas the Patriarke saith he doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike if any fault bee founde in Bishops I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Behold not onely Bishops but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope by S. Gregories iudgement yea by their owne confession Rainoldes Nay it was not a Patriarke but a Primate who confessed that And a Primate is but a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince that is a Metropolitan Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus that is to say the Patriarke of Constantinople as it is expounded in the glose on Gratian For Constantinople was called Byzantium first Rainoldes Gratian and his glose were deceiued both For primas Byzacenus or Byzancenus if you reade it so is Primate of Byzacium called Byzantium too which was a prouince of Afrike and therfore had a Primate as Councels of that countrie shew Whom and not the Patriarke
through bashfulnes least any man should thinke me to hunt after glory which young men are too gréedie of partly through the knowledge of mine owne weaknes who neither in respect of wit nor age nor learning was ripe inough to bring foorth fruites which might be set before all men to be tasted off For though I desire to benefitte all whom I may hauing learned of Plato that I am not borne for my selfe alone but for my countrey neither can I benefitte my countrey more by any meanes then by teaching the waies how to attaine to good artes as Tully thought well yet I feared least I should offend in a common faute an itching lust to write which Horace did terme madnes in his daies what would he haue done if he had liued in ours in which there is such plenty both of passing wits and of works excellent that wise men may iustly thinke it vnmeete to publish any thing that is not wrought with cunning filed with iudgement poolished with labour fruitfull for commoditie and for vse necessary Howbeit after that I was discharged of that profession of artes of humanitie that I might the better applie the studie of diuinitie what before of bashfulnes and iudgement I had still refrained to doo in things of lesse importance least I should doo it more rawly then I thought méete the duetie which I owe to God and his Church hath mooued me now to do that in a weightie matter though not so ripely as I would Which thing vndertaken both by the aduise and the request of the godly I was occasioned to thinke off by one Richard Bristow an Englishman borne abiding at Doway professing the Romish faith who hath set foorth a poisoned worke against the faith and Church of Iesus Christ the faith which we professe the Church of which we be That worke entitled Motiues to the catholike faith when first he set it foorth he hath abridged since into a pamphlet of Demaundes to be proponed of catholikes to heretikes and printed it againe setting before vs the same vnsauory Coleworts twise sodden by himselfe a thousand times by Popish cookes to the great anoyance of guestes if they féede on it great loathing if they féede not What a gréeuous iniury therein be hath doon to the Church of England nor only to the whole bodie thereof but to the seuerall partes also by raysing vp vntrue and wicked surmises by casting out reprochfull spéeches by laying heresies to our charge it shal be declared as I heare shortly in the meane season let the godly iudge whiles to beginne with our most gratious Queene the daughter of godlinesse the defender of the faith the mainteiner of peace the nurse of the Church the preseruer of the weale publik◠the mother of our countrey he doth not onely note her by the name of Pharao but also putteth secretely into mens heads that she is not a lawfull but a pretensed Queene as the Papistes terms her of her Maiesties faithfull and obedient subiectes he saith that they obey her for common humanitie not of duetie to traitors who suffred for taking armes against her he geueth the title of holy and most glorious Martyrs he sclaunderously reporteth that the wiser sort and principall of the Realme haue prooued by experience of our dooings that our religion is no religion at all that our Bishops and Ministers are most ill and wicked and very fewe who preach and they scarce euer preach vpon the mysteries of faith that our people the neerer they come to the preachers doctrine the more they fall away from order and godlines assuring yet themselues to be saued by faith only be they neuer so wicked that in our Vniuersities either nothing is studied or the arte of speaking only not Diuinitie or if Diuinitie not all but a fewe points of it that our countrey is full not of men but of monsters of Atheistes of Achrists of them who beléeue not that a mans soule dooth liue more then a beasts when it is gone out of the body finally not to rake out of those caues of brimstone the rest of the coales of iuniper which he dooth throw both generally vpon whole estates and vpon many learned and godly men particularly that our Church the very body of our Church dooth not foster an heresie or two but hath reuiued many old heresies besides at least a thousand more of their owne inuention that it committeth not a sinne or two but holdeth a common schoole of sinne wherein the scholers be most lewde and the masters lewder that it thinketh verely there is no saluation at all no religion a thing which I tremble to mention but this cockatrice with venemous mouth hath said hath said nay he hath written it and he hath writen it with a penne of iron he hath writen it to last as a monument of his sclaunder that we thinke verily there is no saluation at all none at all and that our religion indeede is no religion Now these false and sclaunderous spéeches against our Church wherewith he hath besette his worke in sundry places as with precious stones are vnderlaide with reasons against our Churches faith begotten of the same father and sisters germaine to the sclaunders loose and dull in truth yet in apparance sharpe and sound which although the skilfull might crush in péeces without harme yet might they doo harme by stinging the vnskilfull euen as a scorpion if he sting a man dooth hurt him with his sting but if you bruse him straight and with his body brused anoint the part stoong he dooth you no hurt Wherefore to the intent that this scorpion of Bristow pricking with two stings as the worst kind of scorpions is wont the one of sclaunders the other of cauilles might doo no hurt to our men whom in the vniuersities or other parts of the realme he is thought to haue stoong many godly men haue wished him to be brused that if not all the parts yet at least so many as the grace of God which only healeth would recure might therewith be anointed And this doo they séeme to haue wished so much the more because some men hauing litle skill in physiche doo thinke that this scorpions stingings are uncurable For both Bristow himselfe as Thraso 〈◊〉 Terence praising his owne spéeches And now they were all afraide of me doth proudly aske whether any of our great Masters will answere his Demaundes as though we had neither shield in the Church to quench the fierie dartes of Satan nor physician in Israel to heale such as are wounded and I know not what Gnatho which hath cast abroad of late infamous verses in our vniuersitie hath insolently boasted that the Captaines tremble amazed with Bristowes lightning as though he had astonied the Coronells of our army not the souldiers onely But let Bristow know that nether all doo feare him howsoeuer he hath touched
there is any faute in the diall I meane in the Church for that can not be as Pighius proueth pretily but because perhaps either Christ him selfe hath tooke an other course and is altered I know not by what changeablenes of God or els the whole scripture is slipt from the point in the which it stood But let vs right woorshipfull who know that the dials and clockes doo mysse often but the course of the sunne is certaine and constant let vs make more account of the sunne then of a diall of heauen then of Plinie of the Zodiake circle then of the field of Flora of God then of men of Christ then of Pighius of the holy scripture then of the church For God forbid there should be any amongst vs so beastly a monster in the shape of man as to set vp Antichrist in the temple of God aboue God and to attribute more to any either man or multitude of men then to the Lord of maiestie But so doo they no dout who haue the Church in greater regard then the scripture For the voice of the scripture is the voice of God the voice of the Church is the voice of men Then if it be impious to set vp men aboue God doubtlesse to set vp the Church aboue the scripture it is Antichristian Nor yet doo I deny that the Churches voice is sometimes the voice of God For in appeasing the offenses and reprouing the sinnes of brethren if thy brother saith Christ refuse to heare the church let him be to thee as a heathen man and a Publican But the holy spirit that is the spirit of truth doth speake both alone and alwaies in the scripture An humaine spirit that is a spirit of errour hath a part sometimes in the spéech of the Church Both which pointes I haue proued by the word of God the euidence of the thing and the confessions of our aduersaries Why doo we not then acknowledge that the royall prerogatiue of this priuilege to bee altogither exempt from all errour is due to scripture onely and confesse as Austin doth against the Donatistes that it is peculiar and proper to the holy canonicall scripture that all things which are writen therein be true and right but the letters and writings of Bishops as of Cyprian yea the very Councels not prouinciall onely but also full and generall haue often times somewhat that may be amended I for my part doo gladly both allow this sentence of Austin and iudge it woorthy to be allowed as agréeable to the trueth And therefore I conclude the point which I proposed that the holy scripture is of greater credit and autoritie then the church Thus you haue my iudgement right learned Inceptors touching the Conclusions which are to be disputed of opened in more wordes perhaps then your wisedome in fewer then the weight of the things required But I haue waded so farre in the opening of them as I thought the Proctors might wel giue me leaue by the straitnes of time As for that which néedeth to be discussed farther I will assay to open it as well as I can if occasion serue when the aduersarie arguments shall bée proposed in disputation CONCLVSIONS HANDLED IN DIVINITIE SCHOOLE THE III. OF NOVEMBER 1579. 1 The holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen HE who the sea the earth the skyes made by his worde of nought Who by eternall power doth guide and rule all things he wrought Did choose from out the sonnes of men before the world was pight Such as with blessed angels aye should ioy his blisfull sight The Iewes are not the onely men that make this holy band But they are souldiers chosen out of euery toung and land Where on the south the mightie prince of Abissines doth raigne Where on the north the coasts do lye that looke to Charles waine Where Phaebus with his glistring beames doth raise the dawning light And sinking in the westerne seas doth bring the darksome night The fleâ—h can not by natures light such hidden truthes pursue But Christian faith by light of grace this Catholike Church doth vew 2 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the catholike Church THey do not well who shut the world within the Roman boundes Christs Church is spred through al the earth without restraint of mounds Rome was I grant a faithfull branch of this renowned vine Rome was a myrrour that in grace in zeale in loue did shine Rome was commended farre and wide for faith in Christ his name For Peters doctrine taught and kept Rome was of worthy fame But where Rome was now ruines are The Capitoll is sâ—ooried The grouÌ„d is bathde in Christians blood whoÌ„ Romish woolues haue wooried Her Churches are with idoles stained her guides with maners vile Whom lustfull traines and wicked hearts and beds vnchast defile O thrise vnhappie Babylon that Sions spoyle doost woorke Under the noble name and hue of Sion wouldest thou lurke 3 The reformed churches in England Scotland France Germany and other kingdomes common wealthes haue seuered them selues lawfully from the church of Rome A Place of haunt for deuils and sprits is Babylon waxt saith Iohn Art thou desirous to be saued from Babylon be gon The names and trickes of Babylon Rome on it selfe doth take Then if ye séeke eternall life sée that ye Rome forsake This haue the noble Germanes done bidding the Pope a dieu England hath followed Germany Romes thraldome to eschew Beholde the Lord hath called on the Flemish French and Dane And Scotland hath escaped eke the Papall deadly bane O that the remnant of the world by faith to Christ were knit And Princes to the Prince of all their scepters would submit Build vp O Lord O father deare the church and Sions for t That vnto thée from Babylon thy people may resort AMongst many singular benefits of God bestowed vpon our Vniuersitie fathers and brethren which may be very fruitfull to the aduancing of Gods glory and saluation of the Church if they be well husbanded there is scarse any more excellent in my iudgement then that it is ordered that the truth giuen by inspiration of God and registred in the Scripture should be not expounded onely by publike lectures but also proued by disputations A woorthy and profitable ordinance no doubt and most méete for schooles which serue to traine vp Christians that is for schooles of God For what can there be more pretious then the truth which teacheth vs the knowledge of God the way to life And what more conuenient to strengthen the truth then to haue it proued by discussing the reasons brought of both partes For as golde being digged out of the veines of the earth is seuered from earthy substance mixt therewith by the mettall-workemen knocking it together and as husbandmen are wont to sift wheat from the chaffe by winowing that it may be fit to nourish the body
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
Catholike Church without the which there is no saluatioÌ„ nor forgiuenes of sinnes he créepeth vp to the head of the Church eueÌ„ Iesus Christ from Christ the head he slippeth downe by stealth vnto Christs vicar one and the same head as he saith with Christ euen the Pope of Rome whom yet to be the head of the Catholike Church not him selfe would say vnlesse perhaps in a dreame for theÌ„ he shuld be head of the triumphant church which is a part of the Catholike but he would be head of the visible church which he nameth Catholike therby the more easily to deceiue the simple who being astonied and snared with that name the fowler shutteth vp the net and concludeth that euery earthly creature if he will be saued must of necessitie be subiect to the Pope Thus saith Pope Boniface But vnlesse the Pope him selfe and the Fathers of his Councell of Trent being thereto forced by the truth of scripture confesse against them selues that the holy Catholike Church doth not signify the visible company of the Church militant coÌ„sisting of the good and badde mixt together which sense the Papists giue it with their Pope Boniface to the intent they may be kings I will not request you to beleue me in it For in the Catechisme which was set foorth by Pope Pius the fifth according to the decree of the Councell of Trent hauing said that the Church in the Creed doth chiefly signifie the company of the good bad togither they adde that Christ is head of the Church as of his body so that as bodily members haue life from the soule in like sort the faithfull haue from Christs spirit and therefore it is holy because it hath receiued the grace of holines and forgiuenes of sinnes from Christ who sanctifieth washeth it with his blood and it is called Catholike because it is spred in the light of one faith from the east to the west receiuing men of all sortes be they Scythians or Barbarians bond or free male or female conteining all the faithfull which haue bene from Adam euen till this day or shall be hereafter till the ende of the world proâ—essing the true faith being built vpon Christ vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Pope Pius therefore and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent affirme that the Church which is specified in the Creede is the body of Christ. Now the scripture teacheth that all the body of Christ is quickned and increased by the holy Ghost as if he were the soule of it But the bad and wicked are neither quickned nor increased Then are they no part of the body of Christ and therfore neither of the Church Pope Pius and the Fathers of the Councel of Trent affirme that the Church is holy being washed by the blood of Christ indued with grace of holines and with forgiuenes of sinnes Now blessed are they whose sinnes are forgiuen blessed are the cleane in heart for they shall see God But the bad and wicked shall neither see God nor are blessed Therefore neither haue they forgiuenes of sinnes nor are their harts cleane Then are they no part of the church Pope Pius and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent affirme that the church is called Catholike in respect that it conteineth all the faithfull from the first to the last professing the true faith and being built vpon Christ. But the wicked and hypocrites either are not faithfull or if they may be called so yet they professe not the true faith or if they professe it yet they are not built on Christ. For they who are built on Christ are built on a rocke and shall neuer be remoued But the wicked shall be remoued Then are they no part of the church Yet they must néedes be a part of the church if the name of church did signifie the visible church as we call it consisting of the good and bad Wherfore it foloweth thereof that the church mentioned in the Créede betokeneth not the visible church that is the company of good and bad together which it is imagined to do by the builders of the Popes monarchie Thus as Caiaphas in the Gospel although he spake many things amisse against Christ yet being the high Priest that same yeere he saide well in this spéech though ill meant too that it was expedient for them that one man should dye for the people so the Pope and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent being the high Priestes that same yere though they meant yll in saying that the holy catholike church which we beléeue is the company of good and bad mixt together yet being lead and moued by some diuine force to speake better then they meant they added such an exposition that their owne doctrine is ouerthrowen by it the errour of the Councell of Constance is discouered and the truth of the scripture confirmed and established Wherefore I may iustly conclude against the Papists out of the Pope him selfe and the Councell of Trent that all the good and holy men and none but they do make the holy Catholike church But séeing our faith must haue a better ground then humane decrées either of Popes or Councels whose breath is in their nosethrils whose houses are of clay and their foundation is sande therefore let vs stay our selues on that conclusion which I made before on warrant of the holy Ghost who hath spoken to vs by the Apostles and Prophets The holy Catholik Church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen And let this suffice for the first Conclusion The second doth folow The church of Rome is not the catholike church nor a sound meÌ„ber of the catholike church Of the which position that we may the better perceiue the drift and truth we must search somewhat déeper and fetch the beginnings of particular churches out of the fountaine whence they flowe God hauing chosen in his eternall purpose the holy catholike church that is all his children to be the heires of his kingdome and to triumph in heauenly glory with him and his elect Angels doth first of all sende them abroade into the earth as it were into a campe there to serue him in warre against the flesh the world the deuill and all the powers of darkenes vnder the banner of Christ that they may come conquerours out of warfare to the triumph and may striue lawfully before they be crowned Whereto that they may be the stronger made and better furnished to endure the labour and hardnes of warfare God begetteth them a new by his word the word working effectually through the holy Ghost as it were by seede and with the same word he nourisheth them as with milke strengtheneth them as with meat armeth them as with a sword of the Spirit and frameth them a shield of faith wherewith they may quench the firie dartes of the wicked one Yea the more
to vs. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stoode Wherefore if he had no stronger shot then this to discharge against it I will beare with him as in the rest of his tauntes also Loosers must haue their wordes An other point he carpeth at is mine exposition of holy catholike church Which I hauing proued by the Papistes themselues that it must needes signifie the company of the chosen alone not mixt with wicked ones because by their catechisme it is the body of Christ all the body of Christ is quickned by his spirit which the wicked are not he replieth that the church is said in the scripture to be the body of Christ quickned by his spirite because some partes of it are so not all the body An aunswere somewhat straunge considering that the scripture which I had alleaged saith that al the body of Christ is quickned so As for that he noteth of the word Catholike that I and Philip Mornay expound it not in one sorte Philip Mornayes excellent giftes and fruitfull labors I reuerence and loue And both of vs hauing aymed at the trueth whether hath come neerer it let the Prophets iudge But if among Prophets in the church of Christ somewhat be reueiled to one that is not to an other this iustifieth not them who say they are Iewes are not but are the Synagogue of Satan Yet this is the soundest reason that he hath against my Conclusion that the holy Catholike church which we beleue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen For touching that he addeth that he hath disproued it by shewing that the church is distinguished from hereticall assemblies by the name of Catholike he hath disproued it as soundly therby as if he should say that the Catholike epistles in the new Testament were not so called as generall writen to no certaine persons because that other writings are named catholike also to distinguish them from hereticall The third point he taketh vpon him to confute is an argument that I made to proue my third Conclusion All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of trueth some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour But he that telleth the trueth alwayes is more to be credited theÌ„ he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more theÌ„ is the Church And to this argumeÌ„t saith he I answere briefly that no words of the Church are the words of error that is that no erroneus thing is euer taught defined or approued by the Church in her Bishops Pastors teaching vniformly in the decrees of Councels chiefly of generall Councels in that which the Fathers teach with one consent in her head the Pope defining deliuering any thing publikely finally in the rule of faith which all the Church holdeth though â—euerally some Bishops may priuately erre in teaching and one or moe Fathers may write some vntrue thing or be in some erâ—or and somewhat euen in CouÌ„cels without the decree it self may be said or reasoned inconueniently and to conclude the Pope may be ouerseene priuately in somewhat But this must be certes imputed to the frailtie of men not to the Church her selfe Which speech of D. Stapletons if it be an aunswere vnto my argument then can I tell him a very briefe way to aunswere my Conclusions all with one word How By graunting them all to be true For though it were so that nether Bishops teaching vniformely might erre nor Fathers consenting nor Councels in decrees nor the Pope in publike and definitiue sentence which I both there else where haue shewed to be otherwise but if it were so yet seeing that Bishops and Fathers and Councels and the Pope himselfe may erre as he confesseth in this or that point and this or that maner he graunteth that which I said that some wordes of the Church are the wordes of errour But those wordes must certes saith he be imputed to the frailtie of men not to the Church her selfe Now certes M Doctor is a mery maÌ„ who can shift an argument off with such a iest As though the Church her selfe consisted not of men and therefore must needes offend so through frailtie the men offending so The fourth and last point wherewith he findeth fault is that amongst the reasons why the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike Church I bring this that touching expounding of the Scripture she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth or against the Fathers coÌ„senting all in one Whereof in that he gathereth that I allow not the expositions of the Fathers yea that I affirme that it is a marke and token of a false Church to admitte the ioint-consent of the Fathers in expounding of the scripture he dooth me great wrong For though by folowing too much breuitie in Latin I fell into obscuritie and said not so plainly that which I would and should as in the English now I haue yet that which I said dooth cleere me of his sclaunder as D. Fulke hath shewed whom I can better thanke for his defending of me then deserue the praise that he hath geuen me therein Nay I was so far from noting that as faulty in the Church of Rome that the faulte which I noted was her vile abusing the name of the Fathers against their iudgemeÌ„t in that point For I declared straight in the words ensuing that first shee autoriseth thereby her owne practise as the right sense and meaning of the Scripture though contrarie to it selfe next she alloweth the puddles of the Schoolemen wil haue theÌ„ taken for waters of life lastly when some Fathers gainsay her she reiecteth them because they all consent not and admitteth them who doo make for her as hauing hit the mark Of the which branches the last importeth not that I refuse the Fathers consenting all in one The former two import that I condemne the frensie of the Church of Rome mainteining her Dunses and deedes against the Fathers But the serpentes assembled in the Councell of Trent haue set downe that I spake of touching the expounding of the scripture so suttilly that a simple man would thinke they allow such senses and meanings of the Scripture onely as the Fathers geue all with one consent Whereas in very trueth they do nothing lesse they disallow them rather For whether by the Fathers consenting all in one they meane the Fathers all simply none excepted that consent is a Phoenix and neuer will be found or whether they meane a good number of them as M. Hart expoundeth it they dissent froÌ„ senses agreed on by that number For example the scripture saith There shal be one flock one Pastour The Fathers Austin Chrysostome Cyrill Ierome Gregorie expounde this of Christ. The church of Romes
mouth expoundeth it of the Pope The Councell then of Trent condemning all senses and meaninges of the scripture which are against the sense that their Church holdeth or against the Fathers consenting all in one doth it not condemne this sense of the scripture geueÌ„ by the Fathers because it is against the sense of their Church Sure it bindeth not the Papistes to maintaine it Or els D. Stapleton I trust should be censured for placing the Pope in the one Pastours seate Wherefore if they who holde not the senses that the Fathers geue of the scriptures be the false Church as he teacheth vs the false Church and the Church of Rome may claime kinred And thus much of the Doctor The Licentiate foloweth him in the same steppes reprouing a speech of mine touching Cyprian Whose praise of the Romans that vnfaithfulnesse cannot haue accesse to theÌ„ being stretched by Sanders to proue that the Church of Rome cannot erre I hauing shewed the contrarie by scripture did adde What and was Cyprian of an other minde Pardon me ô Cyprian I would beleeue thee gladly but that beleeuing thee I should not beleeue the word of God Hereon M. Martin to aduauntage his cause first abuseth Cyprian saying that he affirmeth that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith Which he affirmeth not But whereas the Nouatian heretikes at Carthage had made themselues there a Bishop in schisme and to get him credite with the Church of Rome had writen thither falsly that he was allowed by fiue tweÌ„tie Bishops Cyprian to meete with their falshood and treacherie saith that it could not finde credit with the Romans who being faithfull men would not giue eare to faithlesse lyers Neither spake he this as though the Romans could not in deede be deceiued by false reportes of wicked ympes for euen there he noteth they might be a while as hee did trie both then and after but to stirre them vp to beware of heretikes by praising them as wary Wherfore he affirmeth not that the Church of Rome cannot erre in faith as M. Martin threapeth on him Yet because he might be supposed to haue thought it at least by a consequent for if they could not erre in that much lesse in faith therefore I contenting my selfe with a peremptorie exception against it sayd that if he thought it he must pardon me for not beleeuing him the word of God gainsaying it And this doth M. Martin reproue both for that wherevpon I spake it and for my kind of speeche That wherevpon I spake it is he sayth that euery youth among vs vpon confidence of his spirit will controll not onely one but all the Fathers consenting together if it be against that which we imagine to be the truth In which wordes by mentioning so all the Fathers consenting together he bewrayeth the canker that consumed him For I touched the credite of no more of them then the Papistes grant themselues may be touched Nor controlled I ought vpon confidence of my spirite but of the spirite of God because it was against not that which I imagined but knew to be the truth My kind of speeche he noteth for being very fine and figuratiue as I thought As I thought did M. Martin see my hart If not hee might haue kept that thought within himselfe For in truth to open it because he presseth me so farre I thought in that figure Paerdon me ô Cyprian to imitate a like kind of speeche in S. Austin Pardon me ô Paule What M. Martin thought wheÌ„ herevpon he matched me with vaine foolish youths himselfe hath declared But it would better haue beseemed his age to haue acknowledged rather the truth which I proued then haue reproued my kind of speech For although I be a vaine and foolish youth who spake so of Cyprian yet S. Paule was not a vaine and foolish Apostle whose doctrin I maintayned in it These are good Christian reader the faultes of my Conclusions al that are noted by Stapleton Martin as farre as I know If they or any other haue touched ought else which I haue not lighted on I will not be ashamed vpoÌ„ notice of it to bring it forth my selfe and answere it in iudgement For I haue bene so carefull of true and faithfull dealing as well in the Conclusions as in the Conference with M. Hart God is my record that if mine aduersaries should write a booke against me I would beare it vpoÌ„ my shoulder bind it as a crowne vnto me The bolder I am to coÌ„mend them both to thy vpright iudgement beseeching the Father of lights for his mercies sake in Iesu Christ to blesse thee with the grace of his holy spirit that thou maist grow in knowledge in faith in hope in loue and enioy the blessings prepared for the chosen who seeke and serue him Psal. 119.18 Open myne eyes O Lord that I may see wonderfull thinges out of thy law LONDON Printed by Iohn Wolfe for George Bishop 1584. a 1. Sam. 19 2â— 2. King 2.5 4.8 b Reue. 1â— â— c Act. 6. ver 9. d ver 14. e ver 11. f ver 13. g Act. 7.2 h Act. 1.1 i Luk. 1.3 〈◊〉 23 1â— l Ezek. 47.12 m Gen. 3.9 n Psal. 6â— â—â— o 1. Tiâ— â—â— * In the seueâ—th Chapter and the seuenth Diuision a Rom. 10. â— b Rom. 9.3 c Rom. 10.2 d Act. 22.3 e Gal. â— 1 f Rom. 10.4 g Allen in the Apologie of the English Seminariâ—s chapt 6. h chapt 2. i chapt 3. k chapt 1. 6. l chapt 5. m chapt 1. 5. n chapt 1. 4. * Esai 9.16 o Allen in hiâ— Apologie chapt 5. p â—heologiâ—â— Miniâ—â—ri ecclesiaâ—um ditioniâ— Casimiri in Admonitione de liâ—ro Concordâ—â— cap. 12. q Concertat ecclesiâ—e Cathoâ—licae in Anglia aduersus Caluin Puritan In epistola Lucae Kyrby Apologia Martyrum 1 Quamuis doctissimus illius ordinis 2 Tanto in doctiorem se esse ostendit 3 Egregium Christi Athleâ—am 4 Sanctum sacerdotem 5 Sacrae Theologiae Baccalau reum 6 Firmiores egisse radices in fideâ— fundamentis 7 Doctrina esse solidiori 8 Ministrum synagogâ—e Anglicanae non vulgarem 9 Re insecta vnde venit â—ecessit r Allen in hiâ—â—pologie The nâ—â—ration oâ— tâ—e English 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 s Dan. 1. ver â— t ver 4 u ver â— x Allens Apoloâ—giâ— chapt 3. y chapt 2. z chapt 6. a Dan. 1. ver 7. 8. b ver 12. ver 4. 19. ver 3. e Guicâ—iardin hist. Ital. lib. 11 f lib. â—â— g Allens Apologic chapt 6 h Genebrard Chronogr lib. 4. in aâ—pend i The narration of the English Semin in Rom. k Gen. 3.6 l Esai 19.18 m 2. Cor. 11. ver 13. n ver 22. o The â—arration of the English Semin in Rome p 2. Cor. 11. â—â— q Iob. 1.7 2.2 r 1. King 11.10 s Dan. 1.
groundes of Aristotle as principles of truth equall to the word of God I set not downe examples of all Popish errours growne by these occasions confirmed by Thomas and the Schoolemen Because in our conference they shall if God will haue each their due places Now for the present I grant that the contempt of the Schoolemēs doctrine on these considerations hath moued vs to departe from your Catholike errours and a Lutheran mislike not of Schoole-diuinitie but of this Schoole-diuinitie is a companion of our heresie and in our Uniuersities Oxford and Cambridge we studie scriptures more then it so that in some part you raile vpon vs iustly that heresie in England hath abandoned the studie of it For we had not beléeued the heresie of Christ and that new fangled man his Apostle S. Paule vnlesse we had contemned the Catholike fansies of the Schoolemē who as Demetrius striue against it But you shall neuer driue me with bugges of the names of Luther or Wicklef or Melanchthon or any else from holding that with them which they holde of God For though we reioyse not in names drawne from them with the which you presse vs but in the name of Christians into the which we are baptized yet I know no harme by them nor you I thinke set slaunders apart why we should be ashamed of them more then our fathers were of Caecilian of whom the Donatists called them Caecilianists But had they béene as euill as their enemies report them their liues stained with lewdnes their doctrine mixt with leauen no lesse then were the Pharisees S. Paule hath taught me to acknowledge my selfe euen a Pharisee if néede be not onely a Lutheran in that the Pharises teach a truth of Christian faith the resurrection of the dead Wherefore if the Schoolemen to returne to my purpose if all the Schoolemen had distinguished the keyes from the function of binding and loosing that function from the remitting and retaining of sinnes as you say they doo yet might not their credit ouerweigh the reasons which I haue laide against it But what if all the Schoolemen haue not done so As in déede they haue not What if they haue done the contrarie rather What shall we say of him who hath taught his toong so shamefully to lye as though he neither feared God nor reuerenced men First Peter Lombard the father of the Schoolemen doth define the keyes by the knowledge and the power of binding loosing and so he diuideth and handleth them accordingly The next after him Alexander of Ales treadeth the same steps and saith that to binde and loose is as much as to open and shut which is the whole power of the keyes Thomas of Aquine after him misliking Peter Lombard for requiring knowledge which some who claime the keyes haue not agreeth with him in the rest and maketh the power of binding and loosing to be the substance of the keyes Iohn Scot after him although he distinguisheth between the two courtes secret and open as you doo yet he dreameth not of any other keyes then of binding and loosing Yea that which cuts the throte of your supreme head Scot Thomas and Alexander affirme the same that I namely that the keyes promised to Peter in the sixteenth of Mathew were giuen to the Apostles in the twentieth of Iohn And these are accounted the chéefest of your Schoolemen and so estéemed amongst you that the first of them is called the Master of the sentences the next the Doctor irrefragable the third the Doctor Angelicall the fourth and last the Subtile Doctor What the rest of the blacke garde iudge of the matter I haue not enquired But it is likely they weare their Masters liueries chiefly sith Scot Thomas doo not square about it Which I thinke the rather because D. Stapleton though boasting that all the Schoolemen are of his side yet nameth not one whereas he vseth not to spare his margent for quotations when they whom he alleageth doo speake or séeme to speake for him Belike the Quéene must léese her right where there is nothing to be had Hart. You néede not finde fault that he quoteth not the names of the Schoolemen to proue his exposition when he proueth it by that which you like better euen by conference of scripture Rainoldes By conference of other plainer places of scripture Hart. No. But by a word of the same text euen and the coniunction which séeing that it coupleth things distinct and different in the former members and I say to thee and vpon this peter and the gates of hell and to thee will I giue the keyes therfore to binde and loose must differ from the keyes because the last clause is knit with and vnto the rest and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde Rainoldes And did not he thinke you go about to shewe and proue by this example that conference of scripture is but a bad meanes to come vnto the right sense of the scripture Doubtlesse such a conference as this at which he fumbleth is not the wisest way to finde it But I know not how when he medleth with scripture he séemeth halfe amazed as it were a creature in a straunge element For neither he remembreth his owne exception against vs that in the same sentence one worde hath sundrie senses often nor marketh that a coniunction is vsed as properly to couple togither agréeing things as different and both as here in one place nor considereth that things may differ each from other and yet be expounded each of them by other as the cause by the effects the whole by the parts nor weigheth the point in question that although in Matthew the wordes of Christ to Peter did differ in meaning as much as hee would haue them yet Christ by his generall commission in Iohn might performe ioyntly to all the Apostles that which hée promised to him And this to put the matter out of all cōtrouersie because it is the issue betwéene you and vs the verie wordes of the commission deliuered in the scriptures expounded by the Fathers obserued by the Schoolemen doo conuince so forcibly that the Iesuit whom I named the Popes owne professor most earnest proctour of the Popes supremacy was faine to séeke other shiftes whereby to helpe it but this he could not choose but graunt For hauing taught that the keyes promised to Peter were only two of order and of iurisdiction he declared that Christ did giue them both to his Apostles the key of iurisdiction ouer all the world in that he said to them As my Father sent me so doo I sende you which Cyrill and Chrysostom note vpon it the key of order in the wordes that immediatly follow Receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted to them whose sinnes soeuer ye reteine they are reteined Or if D. Stapleton loue himselfe so well that
was not thrée yeares Bishop Or if because Cyprian doth write it to the Pope you haue such a preiudice that it is the Popes peculiar you may know that he writeth the same to an other expresly of himself TheÌ„ce haue schismes heresies sproong doe spring that the Bishop which is one and ruleth the church is despised by the proud presumption of certain men Wherefore though your Rhemists and other of the Popes friends doe plie the box with that saying of one Priest one iudge for the time in Christs steed yet in very truth it maketh as much for the Bishop of Rochester as for the Bishop of Rome The more is Stapletons blame who knowing and confessing the same not onely otherwhere but in this very worke of his principles too yet in the ende thereof abridgeth it to the Pope Maruell that in his preface to Gregorie he past it He might haue alleaged it better then he hath The head of all Churches Which title is giuen in Victor to the Church of Rome not to the Bishop and toucheth lesse the Papacie there then in S. Gregorie in whom it doth not proue it as I haue declared Marry that which followeth is of greater shew out of Ambroses commentarie on S. Paul to Timothee where Damasus the Bishop of Rome in his time is called ruler of the Church But first whatsoeuer he were who wrote that it was not S. Ambrose the famous Bishop of Milan on whom are falsly fathered the coÌ„mentaries on S. Paul as your Diuines of Louan do obserue and testifie Next the wordes themselues which are in that autour on mention of the house of God the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus are not in my iudgement the autours owne wordes but a glose crept in amongst them For whereas S. Paule writing vnto Timothee declared why he did so to wéete that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God the commentarie thereon doth expouÌ„d it thus I write vnto thee that thou maiest know how to gouern the Church which is the house of God that whereas all the world is Gods yet the Church is called his house the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus For the world is naught troubled with sundrie errours Therefore the house of God and truth must of neceâ—sitie be saide to be there where he is feared according to his will In the which wordes if that of Damasus were omitted the lâ—ter clawse contayning a reason of the former would cleaue therevnto more suantly and fitly Which maketh me to thinke that it was not pitched in thetext by the autour but found a â—hinke and so came in as an other glose of Damasus successour hath done into Optatus And I think it the rather because some are perswaded by manifolde conference as your Louanists note that the booke of questions of the old and new testament entitled to S. Austin this to S. Ambrose are the same autours For he who wrote that booke was not aliue of lykelihoode when Damasus was Pope Howbeit if he were too and of a kinde â—ffection to Rome where he liued thought good to mention him the wordes which he vseth in Latin cuius hodie rector est Damasus might meane that Damasus was a ruler of the Church not as you english it the ruler Which to haue bene so it appéereth farther by the word at this day spoken with a relation to the dayes of Timothee that as hée did gouerne the Church in Paules time so at that present was Damasus ruler of it Wherefore sith Timothee was placed at Ephesus to set that Church in order not to rule the whole Damasus might be called a ruler of the Church in that he was Bishop of the Church of Rome as S. Ambrose termeth him though he were not the ruler of the vniuersal S. Austin is the last oâ— them whose testimonies you cited And the preeminence of a higher roome whereof he made mention to Boniface the first importeth a prerogatiue of honour ouer others not soueraintie of power A prerogatiue of honour according to the canon of the first Councell of Constantinople which gaue that prerogatiue to the See of Rome because that citie raigned Not soueraintie of power as it is euident by the Councell of Afrike where he denied that to the same Boniface to whom hée graunted this preeminence It was therefore only the dignitie of place which S. Austin meant by the higher roome As else where hauing named Cyprian Olympius and other auncient writers he sayth that Innocentius was after them in time before them in place because they were Bishops of inferiour cities and he of the Roman Hart. Nay but S. Austin sayth in plain termes that the principalitie of the Apostolike See had floorished in that Church still Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth in as plain termes that Bishops may reserue their cases to the iudgement of their fellow-bishops chiefly of the Apostolike Church and that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope in iudging of those causes too Which is a cléere proofe that by the principalitie of the Apostolike See he meant the Church of Rome to be chéefe of other Churches as I sayd in honour not in power For in power al others at least the Apostolike that is in which the faith of Christ had bene taught by the Apostles themselues are made equall with it But amongst all in which the Apostles themselues had taught the faith the Roman for honour credit had the chiefty And thus haue I discharged my selfe of my promise which was that I would yeeld vnto the Popes supremacie if you prooued it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applied rightly For none of all theÌ„ which you haue alleaged neither of any other church nor of the Roman it self doth auouch it Whereby the shamelesse vanitie of Bristow may be séene who being not contented to say of all the Fathers that they were Papists addeth that in familiar talke among our selues we are not afeard plainely to confesse it The Lord who is witnesse of our thoughtes and spéeches knoweth that we are lewdly sclaundered herein And for mine owne part I am so farre off from confessing plainely that they were all Papists that I haue plainly declared and confirmed not one of them to haue bene For the very being and essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes supremacie But the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers Not one then of al the Fathers was a Papist Wherefore if you haue the Fathers in such reuerent regard and estimatioÌ„ as you pretend M. Hart let if not the Scriptures yet the Fathers moue you to forsake Papistrie and giue to euery pastor and church their owne right whereof Christ hath possessed
them and the Pope hath robbed them The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 of Ephesus of Chalcedon of Constantinople est soones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie HART The Church doth acknowledge the doctrine of the Popes supremacie to be catholike Wherefore you doe euill to touch it with the name of Papistrie For the Church is the piller and ground of the truth Rainoldes The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth in office and dutie and the Priest is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But as there were Priestes who did not their message in shewing Gods will so there may be Churches which shall not vpholde and mainetayne the truth Hart. Nay that is true still which the Church teacheth For S. Paul sayth not that it ought to be the piller ground of the truth but that it is so Rainoldes Neither doth Malachie say that the Priest ought to be the messenger of the Lord of hostes but that hée is so And what is the occasion wherevpon S. Paule sayth that and to whom Hart. To Timothee that he might know how he ought to conuerse in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God Rainoldes The Church then which Timothee was conuersant in and must behaue himselfe according to his charge in gouernment thereof is called by S. Paule the piller and grounde of the truth Hart. It is and what then Rainoldes But the Church which Timothee was conuersant in was the Church of Ephesus The Church of Ephesus then is called the piller and ground of the truth Now the Church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie nor only that Church but other of the East too Wherefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paule calleth it the piller and ground of the truth the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie Hart. The Churches of the East haue erred therein But the West alloweth it for catholike doctrine And all the ancient Churches both of East and West did subscribe to it vntill schisme and heresie had seuered them one from the other Rainoldes That spéeche is as true as was the former of the Fathers For except the crew of the Italian faction who haue aduanced the Pope that they might raigne with him all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie and do till this day Hart. All Christian Churches who did euer say so before you or what one witnesse haue you of it Rainoldes The Pastors and Doctours in Synodes and Councels wherein they tooke order for their Church-gouernment ech in their seuerall ages For to begin with the ancientst and so come downe to our owne it was in Cyprians tyme ordeined by them al that euery mans cause should be heard there where the fault was committed Hart. That must be vnderstoode of the first handling of causes not the last For they might be heard at Rome vpoÌ„ appeales if being heard at home first the parties were not satisfied Rainoldes The cause of the parties mentioned in Cyprian was heard at home alreadie by the Bishops of Afrike who excommunicated them Yet he reproueth them for running to Rome Wherefore the ordinaunce that he groundeth on did prouide for hearing and determining of causes both first last and all against such as appealed if you so tearme it to Rome Which he maketh plainer yet in that he calleth those Rome-appealers home if vpon repentaunce they séeke to be restored and sayth that they ought to pleade their cause there where they may haue accusers and witnesses of their fault and that other Bishops ought not to retract thinges done by them of Afrike vnlesse a few lewde desperate persons thinke the Bishops of Afrike to haue lesse autoritie by whom they were iudged alreadie and condemned Hart. When Cyprian denieth that the Bishops of Afrike are of lesse authoritie you must not imagine that he compareth them with the Bishop of Rome but with the Bishops of Fraunce Spaine Greece or Asia and chiefly of Numâ—dia Rainoldes You were better say as a Iesuit doth that Cyprian hath no such thing then answer so absurdly For it is too manifest that he compareth them with such as the parties whom they had coÌ„demned did run to for remedie And that was Cornelius Bishop then of Rome It was ordeined therfore by all the Bishops of Afrike Italie and others in the primitiue Church that the Pope should not be the supreme iudge of ecclesiasticall causes Hart. Why doth S. Cyprian then desire Pope Stephen to depose Martian a Nouatian heretike Bishop of Arle in Fraunce and to substitute an other in his roome a Catholike Rainoldes Nay why doe your men say that S. Cyprian doth so whereas he doth not For he desireth Stephen to write to the Bishops of Fraunce to depose him and to the prouince and people of Arle to choose a new Both which things are disproofes of the Popes supremacie Who neither could depose Bishops at that time as also the Cardinal of Aliaco noteth misliking that the Pope alone doth now depose them which then a Synode did neither when a Bishop was orderly deposed could he create an other but the people of the citie and Bishops of the prouince chose him Yea a Bishop chosen by them was lawfull Bishop though the Pope confirmed him not yea though he disallowed him as it is declared by a Councell of Afrike against the same Pope Stephen Wherefore Cyprian meant not that he might depose and substitute a Bishop but ought to giue his neighbours counsell to doe it for the common dutie that euery pastour oweth to all the sheepe of Christ to helpe them when they are in daunger And thus sith the ordinances of the primitiue Church deharred the Pope from the soueraine power of iudging deposing creating Bishops nor from this only but other ecclesiasticall causes as I shewed it foloweth that the primitiue Church did denie the supremacie of the Pope or to say it with the wordes of Cardinal Siluius Before the Councell of Nice men liued ech to himselfe and there was small regard had to the Church of Rome Hart. Yet there was a Councâ—l holden at Sinuessa or Suessa as some say before the Councel of Nice And there wheÌ„ Marcellinus the Pope was accused for offring incense vnto idols the Bishops sayd that he might be iudged of no man Which is a manifest token of their allowing his supremacie Rainoldes That Councell is a counterfeit As you may perceaue by that it reporteth that Diocletian