REPLIES Made to the ANTIQUERIES OF Thomas Lye who writes himself Minister of the Gospel at Chard WHEREIN The Parish-Ministers Call and Maintenance and divers other matters now in controversie are handled and debated By H. L. a friend to the people of God called Quakers Yea they are greedy dogs that can never have enough and they are shepherds that cannot understand they all look to their own way every one for his gain from his quarter Isa 56.11 For both Priest and Prophet are prophane yea in my house have I found their wickedness saith the Lord Jer. 23.11 Thus saith the Lord concerning the Prophets that make my people erre that bite with their teeth and cry peace and hee that putteth not into their mouths they even prepare war against him Therefore night shall be unto you that yee shall not have a vision and it shall be dark unto you that yee shall not divine and the Sun shall go down over the Prophets and the day shall bee dark over them Then shall the Seers be ashamed and the Diviners confounded Mic. 3.5,6,7 London Printed for Dan. White at the seven Starrs in Pauls Church-Yard 1657. To the PARISH-TEACHERS OF ENGLAND Friends REfuse not to think upon that day wherein ye must give an account of your doings when not others tongues but your own self-consciences shall be your accusers and witnesses when not a fallible and corrupt minded man but God that cannot erre shall be Judge Then will you not have leave to plead what cunningly may be said but shall what is really known confess Then will no witty gloss deceive nor nice distinction have place Now will ye be pained as a woman in travel and paleness will spread over your faces But when especially shall come to your remembrance those whom ye now do scorn vex and bitterly persecute the harmless holy Lambs of Christ Then alas what will ye do how will yee beare sustain how can yee the presence offered of such a thought as this Now surely will your hearts be pierced as with arrowes and the horrors of death will clasp you round and to dye ye shal wish but death shall flee from you Thus I say will it be with you except ye repent in time H. L. Replies made to certain Antiquaeries propounded by Thomas Lye who stiles himself Minister of the Gâ—spel at Chard c. THomas Lye Answers returned to these Quaeres by one of those Ministers of the Gospel who in scorn are called Parish-Teachers c. section 1 Ans The very beginning of this work is blemish't with an untruth for I did not so call them in scorn but did purposely choose that word as the which I judged less apt to give them cause of distast Yet this is a very meet foundation for that which is afterward built upon it so like they be one to other T.L. To be left at the house of T. B. of Ash who is desired in the fear of God seriously to read and meditate on 1 Joh. 2.19 They went out from us because they were not of us c. section 2 Ans Yes truly they were of you so long as the earthly in them prevailing they could take Tythes c. sprinkle Infants sing David's Psalms in meter and wanton sounds but after that the eye of their understandings was opened and they turned from these Vanities to worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth then went they out from you indeed and ceased to be of your number being taken into a better society even in like sort and for like cause as just Lot with his family went out of wicked Sodom then ready to be seised on with Gods fiery vengeance wholly to be destroyed And now do they stand as so many witnesses against your false Call and manifold deceits and evil practices what they know what they felt in themselves the same do they now against you testifie Add hereunto this also That whiles they were of you they were as so many Lillies among the Thorns for sundry good parts and vertues which are wanting in you whom they left T.L. Whether those whom God hath competently qualified with Ministerial knowledge 1 Tim. 4.6 and utterance Col. 4.3 and who are solemnly set apart to the Office of the Ministry with prayer tasting and imposition of hands Acts 4.23 1 Tim. 4.14 5.22 may be justly charged to run when they are not sent section 3 Answ He that is in darkness himself can badly see how for to turn others to the light and who knoweth not whither himself doth go an ill guide will he certainly prove in shewing the way to others And who knoweth not God * Ipse notipsum himself how can he well teach others to know him And yet such are all they that hate their brother that sin that are not in the New Covenant and such for these causes are you also who are called of men both Ministers and Masters and this is even manifest to the children of light and shall moreover in the progress of these Answers as occasion is offered be openly shewed and declared What prayer and fasting had ye when ye were ordained Ministers and what imposition of hands was not the prayer made by them whose very prayer was an abomination to the Lord and the fasting was it not of them who fast for strife and debate Also the hands imposed upon you then were they of other then a crimson colour as having been stained with the blood of the Saints and Martyrs of Jesus But to what purpose cited the Anti-querist all these Scriptures as though the usurpers of the late devised Ordination were men of the same account gifts and power as were the holy Apostles who were filled with the Holy Ghost who did and spake as they were thereof moved who had the gift of tongue and other miracles these do we know and own But what are your Ordainers Or came at any time the voice of the holy spirit to them saying Seperate ye me such or such a one for the work of the Ministry Also what gift do they give by their laying on of hands which is to be stirred up Is it the spirit of Power of Love and of a sound mind yet such a spirit was received by or with the imposition of the Apostles hands 2 Tim. 1.6,7 see also Acts 8.17 19.6 Moreover the gift mentioned in the fore-cited 1 Tim. 4 14. was so given Timothy by prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbyterie Are also your gifts if any thus received Is the Spirit of Prophesie assisting or conversant in your feat of Ordination Do your Elders at any time declare the truth of their Office and Calling by healing of the sick Iam. 4. And yet was this gift and faculty annexed or incident to the Office of Elders who such were truly and indeed Now seeing these things are not so with them with what kind of impudence then or rather blasphemous arrogance do they
to pass into the Swine Answ 2. Ye cannot away to hear of the Saints arrival to the measure of Christs stature Why Because ye your selves are so short thereof Also well know ye in your selves That as many as are come hither or fair in the way thereto be now tall enough to over-look all your deceits and failings Answ 3. I demand Whether All the Saints shall come to this neasure all at one time that is as you say at the end of the world If ye say Yea then it seems after your sense the Saints shall neither till then come to the unity of the Faith or the knowledge of the Son of God Forasmuch as both these are coupled together with the other which were very absurd to affirm taking the end of the world in that sense you take it and openly contradictory to many other places of Scriptures Whosoever is truly in the Faith is one with all others who are likewise in the same Faith The Beleevers of old time were all of one heart and of one soul Acts 4.32 were not these come to the Unity of the Faith also in the way of attaining to the measure of Christs stature c. The one Faith being in many makes them all of one heart mind and consent We are one bread fellow-members of the same body See also 1 John 1.7 Again how can a man be a true Believer that is not in some measure come to the knowledge of the Son of God See Iohn 17.3 1 Cor. 2.2 Phil 3.10 2 Thes 1.8 1 John 2.3 2.13 c. Now that all these things namely Unity of the Faith Knowledge of the Son of God and Coming to be a Perfect man are referred to one and the same time i e. the time of this life with coming to the measure of the stature of Christs fulness is very plain in that they are all alike joyned together in one form and manner of speech under the word until See more of this in Section 49 6. section 57 T L. Whether Magistrates are not truly styled Ministers of God though ordained by men Answ Magistrates indeed are Gods very Ministers but in Civil not in a Spiritual accompt And yet if the Magistrate so well as ye now account him should once abandon your Function to voluntary Contribution you would turne your Tale I beleeve section 58 T L. Whether those that say none other things than those which Moses and the Prophets did say should come Acts 26.22 and that determine to know nothing yea to Preach nothing but Jesus Christ and him Crucified and that according to the Scriptures may not be rightly styled to speak as the Oracles of God Answ They only are to be said to speak as the Oracles of God who speak by inspiration or revelation of the holy Ghost or else in the Light speak those things which themselves have handled and tasted both seasonably and aptly for the edification or benefit of the hearers But they that are in the flesh cannot please God Rom. 8 8. whatever they say or determine to know or preach And though ye may use the words of Scripture yet cannot ye thus be covered the Tempter so did and that cunningly too and yet got he thereby no thank at all at Christs hands No more do you neither by Preaching long Sermons compiled of words stoln in like manner out of the Scriptures and other Books T.L. That these are very vertues c. And yet we affirm That through Grace some yea many of us have attained to this That even the piercing eye of malice it self cannot see so far as justly to charge us Answ The eye of wisdome then sees farthet than the eye of malice for this sees you full of iniquities Now the eye of malice is of your side and therefore not so apt to charge you how far soever it may see into your guiltiness yea even this piercing eye hath a mote in it self and therefore cannot see a beam in yours T.L. That our Gifts and Conversations are not at least in a competent measure suitable to that high Calling whereunto we are called However not unto us not unto us you mean not here of Tythes and Augmentations c. but unto our God's name be the praise Answ Our Gifts If ye were indeed wise yet your Gifts would blind your eyes Your Conversations they are like a menstruous garment whereof is no part remaining clean but is wholly defiled Your Calling is from the Serpent and your Gifts and Conversations are suitable to it But why is your Calling an high Calling Because it sets you in the Pulpit on high It 's certain were it not for Tythes and rich Livings the most of your number would turn the deaf ear to this High Calling and say they never heard sound thereof But how bountiful ye are to God! To his Name be the praise A few empty words without any true ground Go offer unto God the firstlings of your flock and the fat thereof until ye so do the Lord will have no more respect to your Sacrifice than he had unto his who for envy slew his Brother a vice most truly yours section 60 T.L. Whether when the Obedience and satisfaction of Christ our Surety unto the Law and Justice of God is by God the Father freely imputed to us the righteousness of the Law may not in the Apostles sense Rom 8.4 be truly said to be fulfilled in us or by us 2 Cor. 5 19,21 Answ Here may the Reader take a taste whereby to judge what kind of Interpreters ye are of the Scriptures the which where they fit not your purpose or fansie ye stick not to wrest contract extend at the beck of each frivolous Opinion just as if they were a Nose of VVax But Paul hath sufficiently declared what he means when he saith That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us not out of us in that he adds immediately after Who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit And they that so walk do verily fulfil the righteousness of the Law By these words therefore he expresseth the mean or way wherein or whereby such righteousness is fulfilled section 61 T.L. VVhether those that are said 1 Cor. 14. to speak by immediate revelation were not extraordinary Officers and such as continued only for a time in the Church of God and its first planting and are now ceased Answ VVhile the Churches did abide in the Truth and wayes of God so long was God also with them and they did feel the movings of his Spirit and spake accordingly as of it they were moved But when they began to forsake their first love and to joyn with the whore and false Prophets and to worship the Beast then did God also justly with-draw himself from them then did their Sun begin to set and the shadows of Night ensued Now heard they not the VVord of the Lord nor the workings of his Spirit did they perceive but became
2.15 c. Ans If all such Foxes were taken and kept in restraint how many of you Teachers would then be at liberty The Grapes of Christs Vines are love joy peace long-suffering goodness faith meekness temperance Gal. 4.12 Now where are the Foxes among us that spoile such Grapes as these On the other hand What Congregation is there of yours in which are not plentiful Litters of such Beasts to be found except for their ravening nature they be rather to be named Wolves then Foxes section 17 And who they be that entice to serve other Gods wil then be put out of doubt when as every man shall receive according to his works and then shall sad tydings be to them who now for a while are counted and called Ministers of the Gospel We serve that God who is worshipped in spirit and in truth who is light who is love if other God ye serve then this for it may seem by your query you worship not ours it 's plain that it is the god of this world who ruleth in the children of disobedience and therefore it is that in this world also ye do receive your reward the kingdoms of the World and the glory thereof section 18 Surely the Apostle in Tit. 1.11 1 Tim 4.1 in the Query cited did not mean that mens mouths should be stopt with a hand or a fist as the manner is of your disciples to do with many a shrewd blow and mischief besides Neither meant he any outward restraint or force whatsoever for when were the false Teachers mouths so stopt it being as it were the lot and portion of false Teachers in all ages to have the earthly powers of their side and all manner of favour encouragement and protection from the Magistrate but they that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution 2 Tim. 3.2 section 19 Neither did the Angel in the Church of Ephesus Rev. 2.2 use any outward violence toward them who said they were Apostles and were not c. as neither do the people of God to the false Apostles now-a-daies But by not bearing here is meant not owning and acknowledging c. for otherwise it 's very absurd to imagine that this Angel did beat whip stigmatize pillor fine or imprison both the false Apostles here meant and the rest that were evil for these also were not born as aforesaid which thing if you Teachers should once put in practise upon all your evil hearers and I think you count your selves Angels how many would you then have left for an audience And it 's plain this Angel was not so much in favour with the secular Powers that he was able if never so willing to have effected such penalties on the false Apostles and evil men the Angels themselves in those times as now also being of all other most obnoxious to the wrath and cruelty of the Civil Power as credible Histories do assure us section 20 T. L. Whether it be a sin to hate the Whore and to eat her flesh c. Rev. 17.16 Answ It is not to be believed you love the Whore so ill as to eat her flesh Go curb thy lusts vanquish thy affections and bring them to submit to the yoke of Christ and then shalt thou know the Whore here meant and her flesh till then thou doest but feed her of thy own flesh instead of eating of hers T.L. Whether we ought not to oppose Popery though Jezzabel-like it appears under a specious paint Ans Yea but then ye must be self-opposers I will not here say what a very eminent man feared not to preach and that before the Parliament viz. That Presbyterie was in some respects worse then Popery it self See Peter Sterry's Sermon preached before the Parl. on occasion of the Victory obtained against the Scots c. section 22 T.L. Because many evil-doers did not turn from their wickedness in the dayes of the Prophets Christ and the Apostles was therefore their Ministry succesless Isa 53.3 Joh. 12.38 Rom. 10.16 Ans If you Teachers had turn'd from their wickdness so many evil-doers as those here mentioned in this Quaery one of you with one of them compared I should grant indeed your Ministry not to have bin succesless but rather of great effect But now if any man listeth to know the success of your Ministry and so to judge of this question let him but come into your Meetings and there let him speak as soberly as he can or else be silent with his hat on soon shall he discern it may be with danger of life or limb what success your Ministry hath or rather what spirit your hearers be baptizd into Who were they I pray what kind of proof did they give of the Ministerial success who stir'd up the people laid hands on Paul being in the Temple crying out Men of Israel help This is the man that teacheth all men every where against the people and the Law and this Place and farther brought Greeks also into the Temple and hath polluted this Holy Plaâ—e And all the City was moved the people ran together and they took Paul and drew him out of the temple c. And as they went abâ—ut to kill him c. And when they saw the chiefe Captain and Souldiers they left beating of Paul c. Acts 21.27,28 and so along And yet if a few Names only changed this place were rehearsed any where in England would any man doubt it to be meant and truly related of your Hearers section 23 T.L. Is it not an Argument of matchless pride in you thus boldly to condemn the whole generation of the just that either have lived or do yet remain in the Land of the living for evil doers and persons not turned from their wickedness c. Answ I never so condemned the generation of the just as this quaery implies for my quaery had reference only to your Hearers whom when you shall have proved to be the generation of the just I shall then confess your Argument in the mean time I shall never doubt to account them for a wicked and adulâ—erous generation so long as I see them with the same ill conditions as had they whom therefore the Scriptures have so termed section 24 But unto what purpose have ye mentioned the Noble Martyrs and their fiery Chariots as though you with them had any affinity or conjunction Verily you are the children of them who sent those Martyrs in fiery Chariots to Heaven to use your own words though you can novv adorn and celebrate their memories as it were with garnished Sepulchres as did your fore-fathers also the Scribes and Pharisees towards the holy Prophets whom yet in other bodies as it were they had most cruelly slain Like as your Ancestors did to those you call godly Martyrs so do ye now to the Saints of God so far as you have power and that you extend not your cruelty to death it self is no thank to you nor