breathe Nick. Had I beene his Herald hee should haue borne a Lady cow for his Crest It had beene a fit Embleme for a faire out-side Though his pen made him admirable in his age yet did his c Dumque moror mirorque simul fugit omnis in vndas miraculous lies make him ridiculous in his dotage d Suspendit calamum Marianae Lipsius arae Suspendi meruit c. Well did his pen deserue to hang at Maries Altar But of the twaine himselfe did best deserue the haltar He best deserued the whetstone for his lying That could not leaue the trade-when he was dying Ma. When Lipsius wrote did he sit stand kneele or leane Hee did lie most that 's flat witnesse his last Scene Min. Then I see you meane not to die in Iabals debt for an Epigram In lieu of his Ladies gloues you haue returned him a Cow with two prettie Calues by her side Lipsius will neuer bee dead as long as they liue Iab Among manie e Pag. 130 deuises the enemie of Mankind hath set abroach in this age to infect the world with Irreligion and Atheisme none seemeth to mee more potent then the deniall of miracles together with those shifts which Heresie hath inuented to discard those both of ancient fresh memorie which please not your tast Ma. That it doth so seeme vnto you seemes not strange vnto vs who doe assure our selues of your forwardnesse in aduancing the state and dignitie of your grand Bel-peor The point is whether our Sauiour his Apostles and the Fathers of the Church held the deniall of your vpstart Lapsian miracles such a potent meanes to infect the World with Atheisme and Irreligion If you will bee tried by these holde vp your f Ecce purissimas meas manus Praeceptor quoth the boy with the scabbed fingers hand A match Doth not Moses g Deut. 13.2.6 forbid vs to judge of the Doctrine by miracles Saith hee not that if any man shall giue vs a signe or a wonder which he told of should come to passe yet we must not hearken vnto him if he once say Come and let vs goe serue other Gods The h Ier. 23 Prophet complaines in the person of Almightie God against these Miracle-mongers Seduxerunt populum meum in mendacijs suis in miraculis suis Our Sauiour i Mat. 24. v. 23.24.25 forewarneth vs not to beleeue such For there shall arise false Christs and false Prophets and they shall shew great signes and wonders insomuch that if it were possible they shall deceiue the verie Elect. Saint k 2. The. 2.9.10 Paul prophetically auerreth that the comming of the man of sinne shall be after the working of Sathan with all powers and signes and lying wonders And with all deceiueablenesse of vnrighteousnesse in them that perish because they receiued not the loue of the truth that they might be saued And that for this cause God shall send strong Delusion that they should beleeue a lie What greater contrarietie can be imagined then there is betweene your position and these textuall verities Min. The Ancient Fathers haue likewise ioyned their forces in the same Encounter Doth not Saint l In Mat. hâ— 49 Chrysostome manacle these Quack-saluers for playing their Leger-de-main trickes Per signacognoscebatur saith hee qui essent veri Christiani qui falsi Nunc autem signorum operatio omnino leuata est magis autem inuenitur apud cos qui falsi sunt Christiani Saint m De Ciuit. Dei lib. 22. cap. 8 Augustine makes a monster of him who doth now desire wonders for the kindling of his faith after so cleare a demonstration of Euangelicall miracles Contraistos Mirabiliarios saith n In Iohan. tract 13. hee cautum me fecit Deus meus My God hath armed mee against such To what end doth hee say Behold I haue tolde you before but that his Spouse should not be entrap'd with such Sophisticall miracle Yea hee blasteth both Lipsius and his Shrine with a o Aug. de vnit Eccles cap. 19. Remoueantur Away saith hee with this geare p Miracula fiut aliquaado humana procuratione aliquando diabolica operatione Al. Hale Quast 53. Art 3 which is eyther the iugling of deceitfull men or the Illusion of lying Deuils It is in my opinion the next way to make men Atheists to see Papists so much distrust the efficacie of the word and the soliditie of Euangelicall truthes that they are euerie day driuen to seeke new supporters of their faith which they easily discerne to bee hammered by the hand of fraud Iab As no q Pag. 130 age since the Creation hath beene without prophane fellowes prone to denie Gods prouidence ouer mankind to iest and scoffe at his seruants so likewise the same prouidence hath not permitted anie age to passe without Miracles and markes of his power keeping the impious in awe by punishments miraculously inflicted vpon their mates and comforting his true worshippers with extraordinarie fauours and benefits bestowed on them aboue natures reach Ma. What authoritie you haue to Canonize them that worship your Ladie of Hall for true worshippers as your supposition intendeth wee will not dispute It would put you to a plunge to proue Image-worshippers true worshippers Christ r Ioh. 4.23 Da medium lunae Solem simul canis iram saith that the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and truth and not the Mother of Hall in stocke or stone Not to stand vpon this I doe not see how you can excuse your presumption in aduenturing to teach the Å¿ A posse ad esse non sequitur argumentum Almightie how hee should awe the impious and comfort his seruants The state of the Church were in a lamentable case if there were no other means for the producing of these effects besides the working of new t Miracula persequentes fugiunt fugientes persequuntur Aeneas Siluius miracles The persecutors of Gods people may be stricken with terrour when they heare the successe which Pharao Antiochus Senacharib Herod and the rest had If with the Adder they stoppe their eares against these neyther would they beleeue though an Angell should come with a fierie sword from Heauen The Lord is able by his secret Iudgements to preuent their malice and confound their deuices The patience which hee giueth vnto his seruants is a miracle which more astonisheth their Enemies and addeth a greater measure to their owne glorious reward then if they were rescued by a miraculous supply To you that desire fire and bullets to strike off the noses of your Enemies I may say with our Sauiour in the like case Nescitis cuius spiritus sitis Iab In what u Pag. 131 age since the comming of Christ hath eyther pietie more needed a spur or impietie a curbe then in this we liue in The Wolfe is said to be so stiffnecked and greedie of his prey that he neuer looketh back but when
his positions When one doth meditate saith hee on the Virgins q Ouerth pag. 41. breastes as shee is Gods mother the obiect is equal to the obiect we thinke of in the wounds and bloud of Christ And why Because in the breasts of the Virgin as shee is Gods mother we must needes contemplate and behold Christ in her Virginall armes Nay more For a man to runne to Christs bloud which was shed to clense sinners is a token that he doth acknowledge himselfe a sinner and a needie suppliant but to r Ouerth pag. 47. approach the Virgins breasts which were not filled with milke but only to nurse the Sonne of God and comfort th' especiall deuoted to Christs blessed child-hood might seeme to sauor of pride and arrogancie Ma. The very relation of these vncouth phrases is a sufficient confutation His diuinitie mee thinkes speakes a strange language The Å¿ A poeticall conceit saith he may be raised of small ground or fancie Ouerth pa. 47. obiect of the Virgins breasts is equall to the obiect of Christs wounds To runne to Christs bloud is humilitie to approach the Virgins breasts arrogancie these are new Positions neyther haue they beene long acquainted for th' one is at daggers drawing with th' other If the obiects bee equall they cannot but admit like accesse to a religious minde But is there no difference betweene that which is an obiect terminatiue per se as the t Scire Christum crucifixum wounds of Christ and that which is an obiect relatiue per accidens as the Virgins breasts Is the u Finis coronat opus consummation or the Initiation of more esteeme Quod efficit tale magis est tale If there were any such imaginarie vertue as Iabal supposeth in the Virgins breasts whence did it proceed but from the child of her wombe for whom alone hee saith it was prepared If for him alone then are they like to find her a drie Nurse and to get a simple sope that come so long after the weaning I would gladly bee informed what Scriptures we haue to draw vs to this obiect Nick. Iabal will not bee found in his Chamber at * Pag. 199. Cacopolis when he should bring in his authoritie It must be faine to staie vpon the first x Ouerth pag. 44. operation of his owne vnderstanding His she-pupills must apprehendit without y Ibid. iudging it to be so as they apprehend Min. He would faine countenance this his imaginarie dreame with an instance of z Ouerth pag. 41 Saint Austens deuotion who brake out into these words In medio positus quò me vertam nescio Hinc pascor à vulnere Hinc lactor ab vbere where that holy Father was at a stand Whether hee should more admire his Sauiour bleeding on the Crosse or sucking of his mothers a Causa sine qua non breasts So comfortable and meritorious was his ineffable humilitie in th' one and his matchlesse Charitie in th' other that hee speaketh Metonymically naming the breasts for him that suck'd the breasts it is to bee attributed to the like tone and cadence which his sentences doe ordinarily affect for on the sudden I cannot call to mind where he directs vs to repaire to the Virgins breasts for spirituall comforts Ma. If it sauour of pride and arrogancie to approach vnto them we will be content to leaue them to the pontificiall soaring spirits our humilitie shall content it selfe to know Christ and him crucified Had not the blessed Virgin her selfe fed vpon this obiect the milke of her breastes would not haue slaked the thirst of her soule Nick. Had I beene at his elbow I could haue helped him to a merrie Fable which I once heard related out of Friar b In serm Dom. prim post Oct. Epiph. pag. 25. Ieremie That there was a certaine man who euery day deuoutly saluted the Virgin with an Aue Marie dying notwithstanding in mortall sin afterwards And when I tremble to speake the Deuils would haue seized vpon his soule the Angels O comfortable message bad them staie till sentence were giuen by Christ Then were all his sinnes put in one Scale marry hee told mee not by whom the Ballance was held and the c Ideo dicit Ecclesia ad ipsam in Hym. Monstra â—e esse matrem Aue Maries in the other vpon which the Blessed Virgin no sooner laid her helping hand but it ouer weiged the first by many ounces And so the Virgin obtained that hee might be restored to life againe to doe further pennance Here had bin a proofe for Iabal begond D. la. sol Min. Vnlesse we were sure of a day as long d Nox facta est longior Plaut as Alcmenaes night we must make more hast Iabal hath with a pretie slight drawne vs into a Labyrinth for whereas the Counter snarle branded his Poets penne with reference to his Ouerthrow pag. 37. he cunningly fetcheth a e Pag. 20. circuit and meets him pag. 164. and takes that which was quoted of Sedulius the Poet to be meant of Bernardinus the Preacher Nick. Rachil knowes how to turne the Cat in the panne to sing two partes in one as well as the best Chaunter in the Popes Quire wherefore that we may at last take our tune in a right Key let vs heare what he hath to justifie Sedulius his figuratiue inuocation of the f All hayle O Crosse Crosse What can it say for it selfe why it should passe without a fye Mi. He hath gotten a protection from the practise of the Prophet g Cap. 45. v. 8. Isayah who by the like figure speaketh to the heauens and clouds to send downe the Sauiour of Mankind O you heauens saith he poure downe your dew and let the cloudes raine downe the Sauiour This praier saith Iabal is ment vnto God that ruleth in the Heauens and the Cloudes though seemingly directed to the very Heauens and Cloudes Nick. He might haue learned from the Counter-snarle to haue distinguished between an hyperbolicall exaggeration and a superstitious obsecration Yet doth he come ouer my Master with a why not saying Why may not a Theologicall inuocation be vttered in a figuratiue speech Ma. First let him prooue Inuocation to bee due to the h Pari ratione Adorentur puâ—llae virgines praesepia veteres panni adorentur naues adorentur Asini quia Asellum insidendo ad Hierusalem vsque peruenit Claud. Taurinen Crosse and then will wee not stand with him for the figure Figures are to bee vsed as ornaments of the truth not as shelters of falshood Did Isaiah fall downe to the Cloudes and worship them as they the Crosse Did he say All haile O Cloudes as they All haile O Crosse increase Iustice and Righteousnesse in godly men and grant pardon to the guiltie If not then quorsum haec as iust as Germans lippes nine mile a sunder Min. His Seraphicall Doctor Thomas i Thomas super Isayam cap.
without any scarre Nick. I pray you what likenesse is there between Sacer dotes and Scortatores yet as I haue heard my master say in one Edition of the new Testament set out at Coleyn in steed of these words h 1. Cor. 6.9 Neque Scortatores regnū dei possidebunt he hath found it thus printed Neque Sacerdotes regnum dei possidebunt I hope you will not challenge the Printer for allusion to your olde trade I perswade my selfe it was his misprision though some haue thought hee did it to cry quittance with his wiues Confessour I hope this was more then the change of one poore sillable the tayle of the g being the same with a Romane s and a running o. not vnprobably to be supposed to haue lost the head of a d. through hast of a speedy pen. To put vt for at is no such capitall crime Ma. You should rather demand of him what likenesse there is between 34. and 42. 169. and 168. 176. and 172. Such errours are so frequent in his booke that it must of necessity cause wrong quotations yet in my conscience I do not thinke the Doctor was accessary to these or the like scapes wherewith his lines doe abound T is like the Printer thought hee had no great good match of your booke Had hee not misdoubted the currant sale thereof hee would haue had a more vigilant eye ouer the presse this his presage made him put i Pag. 63. N. 43 lin 6. giue for deny k Io. lin 8. Indeleble for vndeniable l Pag. 92 N. 3. Edition for Reddition m Pag. 101. N. 13. Deuised for deuided n Pag. 52. N. 29 long for low o Pag. 129. N. 6. Ioyned for moued p Pag. 180. N. 27 Burned for drowned q Pa. 40. N. 15 was for his old seruiceable attendant As. The surplusage and defect of many other words giues vs iust cause to suspect either the Printers care or the Authors skill so that you may well winke at such small faults as the scape of a Monosyllable or two Iab Why r Pag. 42. should he make his Inference in Latin writing in English what English Author vseth that idle manner of Writing but himselfe Min. As if a Schollar being in his owne Element may not be easily carried away with a strong imagination that he is in the Schooles especially writing to a Schollar about Theologicall questions This I haue many times obserued in the Knight that it is yrksom vnto him to write any thing Verbatim which hath passed his penne before neither doth hee without vrgent necessity render that authority in English which hee hath quoted in Latin All wittes haue not the patience alike to endure the repetition of the same things and such for the most part take that first which first offereth it selfe and may bee dispatched with fewest Characters taking vp the least roome Ma. Whether his Inference were in Latine or English it is litigium de forma I am sure he vouched S. Hieromes ſ In praef lib. Sal authority that the Church read the book of Machabees for the edification of the common people but receaued them not amongst the Canonicall Scriptures for the authorizing of Ecclesiasticall decrees which was as much as the Knight intended by secluding them from the Canon of Faith Iab This is nothing to the purpose t Pag. 43. to proue S. Augustine did reiect them who might bee contrary to S. Hierome in this point not beeing then defined by any generall Councell Ma. S. Hierome contrary to S. Augustine Is not this goodly Rhetorique to draw the Ladies to build their faith vpon the writings of the ancient Fathers Is there any more then one truth Either the booke of Machabees is Canonicall or not You say S. Augustine auerrs it wee proue that S. Hierome Lyra Brito Rabanus Caietan c. deny it Whom shall your Creatures beleeue Will you suffer them to haue such reeling and tottering Consciences Iab u Pag. 44. Caietan whom he citeth iumps not altogether with your conceit and though he did his sayings are not oracles with vs. Min. This kind of disputing will neither get you a Miter nor a Cardinalls Hatte Set you so light by the head-men of your parish Good Dctour let vs know to whose verdit you will stand dare you say to S. Augustines are all his sayings Oracles in your Church Nay saith x In Act. Apost cap. 1. p. 9. a. Lorinus Augustinus incertum putat an Iste Theophilus idem sit cui Lucas Euangelium et Acta nuncupauerit Atqui res certa videtur The Diuines of y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 De Trinit l. 9. c. 2. in Marg. Louane lay Sophistry to his charge So likewise writeth your Iesuite z Comment in Iohan. 6.53 Maldonate Augustini et Innocentij primi sententia fuit quae sexcentos fere annos viguit in ecclesia Eucharistiam etiam infantibus necessariam esse quae tandem ab ecclesia reiecta est The opinion of Augustine and Innocentius the first which was receiued in the Church well nigh sixe hundred yeares was this that the Eucharist was necessarily to bee ministred vnto Infants which at length is reiected by the church Negare non possumus saith a In Thom. disp 154. cap. 2. 3. Vazquez praedictam opinionem fuisse Augustini et Fulgentij a qua non multum Gregorius Magnus abhorret tamen meo iudicio probabilior eos nulla alia paena quam damni id est priuatione beatitudinis puniri Albeit we cannot deny that b Ser. 14. de verb. Apost et l. 5. cont Iuliā c. 8. Aug. and Fulgentius did teach that Infants dying without Baptisme did presently descend into the place of the damned to be sensibly tormented in hell-fire yet notwithstanding in my iudgement it is more probable that they vndergoe no other punishment then the losse and priuation of beatitude The like censure doth c Concor Euang tom 1. lib. 7. ca. 8 Barradius passe vpon Euthymius Hocloco saith he Euthymius non recte de Virgine sanctissima haec scripsit Non credidit sicut Zacharias c. Procul a Christiano pectore et auribus huiusmodi sint verba Thus doth your Church spunge out the opinions of the ancient Fathers vpon whom you seem so stedfastlie to relye Ma. Then it seems the matter is not great what S. Augustines opinion was touching the Legitimation of the Machabees seeing his words are no Oracles euen with the Doctors of the Romish Church and the rather because the booke according to Iabals confession was not then naturalized by the consent of any Occumenicall Couacell Nick. This is a prettie slight The Fathers are but as feathers when they doe not stick to the Popelings I trow Saint Hierome shall find more fauour at your hands Iab Saint d Pag. 43. Hierome may seeme to speake acoording to the opinion of the Hebrewes as hee vseth to doe not in
by mistaking of the word Canonicall which is sometimes taken largely to signfie aswel the Bookes that might concerne the Rule of Manners as those which serue for the foundation of the doctrine of Faith in which sence your Father and Councell are to be vnderstood whereas the same word in the strict and proper signification doth only comprehend the Bookes which agree with the Canon of the Hebrewes according to the generall consent of the Ancient Fathers of all Churches before the dayes of Saint Augustine To this end hee sent no worse p Letter to T.H. pag. 62. Messenger to cleare this doubt then a person eminent both by name and place I meane that famous Cardinall Cajetan Ne turberis Nouitie saith he Si alicubi reperias libros istos inter Canonicos supputari Cum hac distinctione poteris discernere dicta Augustini scripta in Concilio Prouinciali Carthaginensi Hee tels you that they are thus to be vnderstood as also that none but Nouices in the writing of the Ancient Fathers will trouble themselues by making any question in so apparaÌ„t a truth Nick. Iabal hath well requited him for his paines I trow he hath sent the Cardinall away with a flea in his eare If Caietan had beene Pope hee would haue beene twice aduised before he had so rudely reiected his Oracles My fellow Iack Footeman would haue no great Maw to carry a Message to such a currish Swaine from whom hee expects no better entertainment Min. Caietan I wis had more wit in his little finger then Iabal in his whole body Beati Pacifici was his aime Should such hot-spurres as our Nouice haue beene made Arbitrators there would haue beene such a broyle amongst the Fathers as would not be easily reconciled For if you take away this fauourable most probable distinction you should soone see a field pitch'd betweene q Vide Admon praefix Concord Bibliorum per haered Wecheli Cyril Cyprian Origen r Si quid extra haec inuenitur inter adulterinos libros numerandum est Greg. Nazian Nazian zene Å¿ Anthonin Summ. maior Parâ— 3. tit 18. cap. 6. § 2. Hierome t Alij libri sunt qui non Canonici sed Ecclesiastici a maioribus appellati sunt eiusdem ordinis Tobiae Iudith et Machabaeorum libri Ruffi in Symbol fol. 575. Ruffinus Epiphanius u Sunt Canonici veteris testamenti libri viginti duo lâ—teris baebraicis numero parâ—s Aâ—ban ex Synopsi Athanasius Eusebius and Gregory on th' one side discarding them and Augustine the Councell of Carthage Trent on th' other part defending them When this pitch'd battel should haue beene fought the Romanists might haue sought our valiant Sanga vnder the Trundle-bedde till the hurly burly had beene at at end vnlesse they had pluckt him out by the heeles no perswasion would haue drawne him to shew his face they are all so peremptory and plaine against the Canonizing of these Apogriphall bookes This was not vnknowne to the Cardinal who was thereby induced to thinke that S. Augustine tooke the word Canonicall in the larger sence as comprehending the Ecclesiasticall writings within the verge thereof Ma. Had it beene an error an the Iewes not to haue receiued these bookes as they did the Law and the Prophets I cannot thinke but that Christ or his Apostles would surely haue reproued so notable a crime seeing they were not meale-mouthed in the reprehension of lesser faults And whereas we receiue this maine benefit by the Apostacy of the Iewes that therby the world seeing them enemies vnto the Messias cannot but giue the greater credence to the bookes of th' old Testament without suspect of partiality which otherwise might haue beene doubted the adopting of these other Apocriphall into the Canon were as much as in vs lieth to vilifie th' authority of their authentique records who may not improbably be thought to haue taken in those that were adulterine as well as to haue degraded those that are found to haue beene diuine Min. If all other reasons were mute me thinkes the Author Matter and Manner of the history might well make an ingenuous person very sparing in the defence The Author if wee may credit the x Vide Zanch. de diuin attrib lib. 4. ca. 4. enlarging Epitomizer of these bookes is y 2. Mac. 2.23 Iason Cirenaeus a z Spiritu sancto inspirati loquuti sunt sancti Dei homines 2. Pet. cap. 1. v. 21. heathen man for-sooth a fit Secretarie for the Court of heauen It seemes pen-men were then as scanty as sometimes a 1. Sam. c. 13. v. 19. Smiths in Palestine This must needs bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which requireth so much b 2. Mac. 2. v. 26. watching sweating and pains in the refining Calamus Scribae velociter scribentis would haue eased all this toyle which is not to bee feared where the Omniscient spirit is the Dictator As touching the matter it is wouen in a webbe of such palpable contradictions that a man who regardeth his credit would be sorry at his heart to bee taken tripping in such contrary tales One while c 1. Mach. c. 6. v. 16. Antiochus died for griefe in Babilon Another while hee was slaine in the Temple of d 2. Mac. c. 1. v. 13. Nanea where his head was cut off And yet is not Antiochus out of his paine As if he had as many liues as a Cat you shal see him stalke once more vpon this historicall Stage and then at last fall downe and dye with a most noysome stinking smell consumed with e 2. Mach. c. 9. v. 9. Ducit ad inferos â— educit wormes Indeede I must needs say he is very modest in the deliuery He writes not f Math. 7. v. 29. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as one who had the custody of the mint to warrant the mettle whereunto he had put his stampe but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pleasure and recreation of the reader Had he had the warrant of the spirit hee would haue spared the labour of begging fauor and suing out a pardon for which hee is faine to crowch to the Readers gentlenesse Ma. Then had the holy Father S. Augustin good cause to say that they are receiued profitably if they bee read Soberly For if they should bee read with a precipitate opinion as Canonicall Scriptures in the strict sence the many leakes which are transparant in them would goe very neere to sinke th' authority of the rest Iab It appeareth by that testimony against the Epistle of Gaudentius that the Christians gaue that authority to those h Pag. 55. bookes which the Iewes did not grant vnto them that the Church did set them vp in the throne from which the Synagogue had kept them which was the Imperiall throne of sacred Authority Otherwise S. Augustins opposition The Iews did not but The Church doth were vaine Ma. The
but Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost in neither Whence followeth seing the next world is the time of Iustice that God doth not there remit sinnes without exacting and inflicting the due punishment vnto the Authours which is the Purgatorie the Catholique Church doth and hath euer taught This exposition no sooner soundeth in his eare but his tongue waggeth in this sort I protest I thought as much you haue turned vp Noddy Ma. Doubtlesse you read the Knights booke with a perspectiue glasse otherwise the Noddy which was sixe pages distant from the first proposall of this argument would not haue sate so close vpon your brow First to she the vanitie of this Inference he tels you that Saint Marke handling the same theame renders Saint Matthewes disiunctiue in this plaine Collectiue that who so blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost shall neuer haue forgiuenes as being culpable of eternal daÌ„nation secondly to proue that this was no simple but an approued glosse in those dayes he alleadgeth Athanasius Hierome Hillarie and Ambrose who made no other construction of those wordes then that this Sinne should bee neuer forgiuen Thirdly by way of Concession he giueth allowance in part to your Inference that some sinnes may bee said to bee pardoned in the world to come viz. per Remissionis promulgationem And so concludes b Letter to T.H. pag. 32. that the Sinne against the Holy Ghost is here exaggerated by opposition to other Sinnes in the depriuation of that double benefit whereof other Sinners penitent are capable Now because he saw his Aduersarie did put the wordes on the Rack making them speake that which was farre from the scope of the place viz. that some Sinnes remissible are pardoned in the world to come which were not formerly forgiuen in this world he tels him indeed that in adding this last clause he had turned vp Noddy which gaming Metaphor was not vnfitly applied to so trifling a disputant Iab c Pag. 65 He discourseth more like a Carpet Knight then a sober Diuine shewing more skil at Cardes then of Scriptures Ma. Indeed he hath taught you a New Cut viz. to deale more mercifully with the Scriptures and more charitably with the Soules of your poore brethren If eyther the rules of Logick or the verdict of Ancients bee of any account he hath turned this your deduction many specks out And for ought I see the more you draw the further you are gone Min. How absurd the Inference is it will easily appeare by the scope of the text and the sence of the words Our Sauiour there speaketh de reatu peccati of the guilt of Sinne saying non remittetur and doth not specifie any paine to bee suffered for such sinnes whose fault is forgiuen in this present life Had he said Hee that sinneth against the Holy Ghost shall not be vnpunished in this world nor in the world to come the Inference had not beene amisse Ergo some sinnes are punished in the world to come which are not punished in this world But when hee sayth it shall bee forgiuen neyther in this VVorld nor in the VVorld to come it is a meere fallacie to drawe the speech from the guilt to the punishment inferring that some sinnes shall be punished in the next world whose offence is forgiuen in this The remission from which that Superlatiue Sinner is debar'd is an act of mercie wherin man is considered as a Patient and therefore cannot be sutable to that time and act of Iustice whereof the Doctor dreameth neyther can a sinne be said properly to be remitted the due punishment wherof th' offender hath condignely sustained Hee that payes the vtmost farthing is verie little beholding for the forgiuenesse of his debt But if you will needs vncase this sentence of the figure wherewith it is beautified I demaund whether doth our Sauiour speake of the guilt or of the punishment or of both If he say the guilt shall not be forgiuen in this world nor in the world to come then your deduction must be this Ergo the guilt of some mortall sinnes shall bee remitted in the next world which is not remitted in this and so your Purgatorie presupposing a former assoylement from the guilt will haue no subsistence If hee speake of the punishment you must infer Ergo some sinnes shall be punished in the next world which are not punished in this which as all men confesse so doth it affoord no aduantage to your cause If you say that he speaks of both Guilt and Punishment then as well the Guilt as the Punishment of some mortall sinnes shal be then remitted which your d Pag. 79 Suarez doth disclaime So that you are verie nimble thus to fetch a crosse caper making the Lord of truth to speake of Guilt in the former and of Punishment in the latter part to serue your turne Nick. I would be loath to fast till Iabal get out of this Maze should I stay for a solution the piâ—d Nag I feare would not come at Iames Parke this grasse But you were in hand to speake something concerning the sence of the words Min. Well remembred I was about to shew the Doctor his error in making the World to come which signifieth e Marâ— 1â— â—â— the last day to note that middle space of time which is now in present being As long as time lasteth this present world continueth the world to come commeth not till the date of time be cleane extinct and then their owne confession making a full Gaole deliuerie casheireth Purgatorie as of no longer vse Had our Sauiour said It shall be forgiuen neyther in this life nor in the life to come there had beene some better colour for this Inference but by mentioning the world to come which being opposed to this present world hath relation to the day of Iudgment when no remission is to be expected he implieth a necessarie Nullitie of anie future forgiuenesse after this life Nick. Vnder correction I thinke a man might as well reason thus If the time present be in respect of those that are deceased to bee tearmed the World to come then much more may that Eternitie bee so called which followeth the day of the Lords last aduent And so by vertue of this place taken properly in Iabals sence some sins may then also be forgiuen which were not formerly remitted by which kind of pleading a man might easily merit Origens fee. Besides should it bee granted that some sinnes are remitted in Iabals world yet is there no necessarie consequence of the Satisfactorie fire of Purgatorie Iab You cannot denie but this our Inference and exposition of the former place is taught by f Pag. 66. fiue or sixe Ancient and Holy Doctors which the g T. H. Motist citeth Will your wisdome tearme them Noddies Shal Saint Bernard Venerable Bede Saint Isidore bee put in the number of Noddies If you be an English Christian you cannot denie Saint Gregorie to be your Father Heare what hee
saith Wee must beleeue that for some light faults there is a purgatorie fire before the day of Iudgement because the truth doth say If any shall vtter Blasphemie against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiuen in this World nor in the world to come In which saying we are giuen to vnderstand that some sinnes may bee forgiuen in this world and some in the next for what is denied of one it is cleare that consequently it is granted of the other Thus didst thou write blessed Saint a thousand yeares agoe euen when thy heart was fullest of comfort for the conuersion of our Country It would not a little haue allayed thy ioy hadst thou foreseene that Ma. Such idle Rhetoricians such seditious Iesuites such superstitious Priests such pompous successors such trayterous and bloudy Popinians should haue corrupted that faith and made that Sea so infamous amongst the most remote nations which both by heart and hand thou tookest so great paines to promote This would haue allaid his ioy indeed Min. As for your fiue or sixe auncient Doctors you shall haue your answere both in weight and tale In the meane while for this of Gregory if it bee his owne it may more then euidently appeare vnto your second suruey of these his Dialogues that hee was by certaine idle apparitions and phantasticall Ghosts som what too easily induced if not seduced to fauor and further this opinion Yet if you will bee pleased to let Gregory answere Gregory listen what he h Greg in 7. c. Iob. lib. 8. c. 8. elsewhere speaketh Cum humani casus tempore siue sanctus siue malignus spiritus egredientem animum claustra carnis acceperit in aeternum secum sine vlla permutatione retinebit vt nec exaltata ad supplicium proruat nec mer sa aeternis supplicijs vltra ad remedium ereptionis ascendat To the same purpose is Gregory alleaged by i Nilus lib. de Purg. Nilus auerring that the time after this life is for punition not for purgation In hac vita tantùm saith S. k Serm. 66. Augustine poenitentiae patet libertas post mortem nulla correction is licentia Hoc tempus est poenitentiae illud iudicij saith S. l In Serm de Euch. in Eucaen Chrysostome hoc agonum illud coronarum hoc laboris illud relaxationis The same father m Hom de Lazar. further tells vs Dum hic fuerimus spes habemus praeclaras simulac vero discesserimus non est postea in nobis situm poenitere neque commissa diluere Here we haue hope but when we are once deceased it is neither in our power to repent nor to make satisfaction for those things which we haue done Iab What thinke you of that Father whom the Knight named a n Pag. 67. marble pillar that euer-admired Augustine Thus he writeth vpon our place of Scripture It could not be truly said of some men that their sinnes should not be forgiuen in this world nor in the world to come vnlesse there should be some men who though they are not pardoned in this world yet they should bee pardoned in the world to come Ma. This the Knight remooued with a writ vnder the hand of Viues who auerreth that these words are wanting in some ancient copies So that iust suspition may not improbably deeme them to haue been inserted by a second hand Iab Yet o Pag. 68.69 Viues addeth Tamen stilus non abhorret ab Augustiniano The stile dissenteth not from S. Augustines Yea further he saith that either in other copies of Saint Augustine the former wordes are found or taken from some other worke of this Father they were heere inserted Ma. Hee is a very simple Impostour that cannot iumpe with S. Augustines stile for a sentence or two But is not heere olde handy pandy when sentences shall be tossed from one place to another without the Authors aduise This inserting of sentences in wrong places raiseth a different sence and puts all out of ioynt So that the Knight was not ill aduised to say that it were ill with the Church if her saith were pinned p Let. to T.H. pag. 7â— on S. Augustines sleeue not that hee misdoubted that holy fathers sincerity but because he was too well acquainted with these Ioyners interlacing subtilty And haue we not then great reason to stand to the sole trial of the Scriptures or is it possible these brabbles should haue an ende as long as such authorities are vrged which are elsewhere contradicted by th' authors themselues Min. If we grant that this authority hath the right stampe of S. Augustines penne yet will it not affoord fuell for the kindling much lesse the maintaining of Purgatory fire He tells vs as you haue often heard that the Catholique faith knew but q Aug. in lib. 5 â—ypognost two receptacles of soules departed The kingdome of Heauen and Hell As for any third place hee saith penitus ignoramus we know none neither find wee any such mentioned in the holy Scriptures And in his eighteenth Sermon De verbis Apostoli Duae habitationes sunt vna in igne aeterno altera in regno aeterno So that howsoeuer there was in his daies some wauering conceit yet was not the doctrine of Purgatory held then as a matter of Faith And to that purpose hee r Euchirid c. 69 speaketh saying It is not incredâ—ble that such a thing should chance after this life and whether it bee so or no it may be questioned and againe Å¿ De ciuit Dei lib. 21. cap. 26. non redarguo quia forsan verum est I do not denye it because perhaps it is true Thus haue you purchased a second forsitan to accompany that which was freely giuen you by Viues his pen. As for other places where it is not expressed it is necessarily to be vnderstood for had he deliuered his mind elsewhere positiuely and apodectically heerein I cannot see what should mooue him heere to shake his owne foundation by making others to doubt of that whereof himselfe was certainely assured The best men in which number S. Bernard may be reckoned haue had through the corruption of time their pardonable errours Sometimes they were led with the blazing starre of coniecture and not alwaies with the day-starre of truth So that we haue no warrant further to follow them though they were Angels then the guidance of Gods word Iab t Pag. 70. What can be sacred and certaine amongst Christians if an vnlearned Knight may be permitted to deride that which the most famous Diuines and Fathers of former ages do without the contradiction of any peremptorily deliuer as an vndoubted verity Nick. Lord how the Noddy rumbles in Iabals stomacke how faine would hee disgorge it on the bosome of the Fathers of whom neuer man spake with greater respect then my master As for those that are of our Doctors ranke I must needs say hee casts the Noddy amongst them without a